I really really REALLY wish a law would be passed that force parents to compensate other families who lose money, time and potentially a child to a preventable disease that is present only because they're too stupid to get the damn vaccine.

Currently there is no legal recourse I am aware of for parents who suffer losses due to unvaccinated people in the population. Sounds like it's about time to change that.

Looks like the vaccine is working.

Bad news. I'm really glad my daughter was vaccinated a few months back.
The interesting part is that the community afected isn't mentioned.
I happen to know but I'm not saying.

The interesting part is that the community afected isn't mentioned.

Danish immigrants?

The propaganda war is on! Does the article's author bother to give the "debunking evidence"? On the contrary, the opposite is well-documented. The citations break down into:
1). leukemia and lymphoma
2). Auto-immunity
3). Nervous system issues
4). Autism
5). Demyelination
6). Seizures/epilepsy
7). Convulsions
8). Diabetes
9). Other "unexplained diseases"
10). deafness
11). kidney disorders
12). abcesses
13). shock
14). STD's

You either have a lot of chutzpah or not much familiarity with the subject matter to say that my position lacks support. Dozens of studies that have been conducted and all of them refute your crackpot conspiracy theory.

Unless you think that tens of thousands of specialists are all in cahoots with the pharmaceutical companies, US government, illuminati, or reptilians to give your children autism...

Science isn't a process of posting whatever bit of batshit insanity you can think of to the internet and then challenging other people to prove you wrong. If you want to make a claim, bring some fucking evidence, or piss the fuck off. Stupidity is usually entertaining, but sooner or later people will die because of people who buy this crap.

How many of those sources have you actually read, contrarian? Or are you just pushing bad information?

My guess is you'll use a whole lot of words to say "none" and "yes."

ok, the air force has a crystal ball back in 1996 when they said 30 million would die from swine flu. Ok.

please use the vaccine link as a reference if you really have any interest in researching it for yourself.

i'm still wondering what the unnamed "debunking evidence" is?

any eugenicists out here or you just blindly trust everything they tell you?

Well L_RCON, undoubtedly introduction of foreign substances that activate immune systems are accompanied by negative effects, many so far undetected. Compare the negative effects observed to date with the long-term use of so many vaccines with the consequences to the population of not using the vaccine. Which is the preferable outcome?

Statistically, what are the chances of you being negatively affected from using the vaccine as compared to being afflicted with the ailment with its concomitant negative effects? And remember that it's a mutual protection society with reciprocity. If increasing numbers of persons elect to be unvaccinated, the chances of being afflicted by the ailment are increased.

Think about smallpox and polio, and the result from using the vaccines. Were the epidemics and endemic situations preferable?

#14 johnson -
undoubtedly introduction of foreign substances that activate immune systems are accompanied by negative effects, many so far undetected.

You seem to be educated. I'm not sure of your motives at this point, whether ignorance, propaganda or something else.

Here's a great resource for all you that details the ingredients of the common vaccines out on the market.

OMG, Johnson nails it?

#15 | Posted by L_RContrarian at 2009-07-05 07:13 PM | Reply | Flag: makes up shit

Challenging Barfalo Batshit for the title?

#18
On the site she says "it shouldn't be polio vs. Autism."

Uhm yes it should be. Especially since the number of polio deaths far surpasses the number of autism cases absent vaccination. I'm all for making vaccines as safe as possible but that doesn't mean we throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater. Literally.

It's going to come down to all of us to make our own informed decision based on the facts,

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but when it comes to complex topics like vaccination and, well, medicine in general, your average person with a high school level of knowledge about biology CAN NOT make an informed decision.

The problem (I believe) that has arisen in the past few years has been the rise in people who believe otherwise. People think that watching a few House or ER episodes plus some rudimentary reading on WebMD or Google University makes them on par with scientists and doctors who have LIVED that material for years or decades.

And this article points out the expected result of that ignorance being mistaken for knowledge.

#17 - zatoichi.

Nice job. All the evidence is now debunked! you're brilliant.

#20 jpw
When people ask their doctor, I wonder how much he actually knows about safety and the actual risk given all the coverups/business as usual that has gone on?

#21 | Posted by L_RContrarian at 2009-07-05 08:52 PM | Reply | Flag: Failed 8th grade English along with Cranc.

Successful wheels are here to stay
Everything must be this way

"When people ask their doctor, I wonder how much he actually knows"

He and his wife are physiology textbook authors.

DIAF ASAP please

your hieroglyphics are mindnumbing. I didn't notice any previous reference to who 'He and his wife are' that has supposedly written a textbook.

I was stating that since the CDC and military exercise their powers to maximize a coverup of their dirty laundry, I was asking if the average person going to see their doctor is privy to what is going on?

Exactly what are you attempting to debunk?

Damn! All this romantic conspiracy stuff elevating y'all to the initiated adept level of the mysteries and my life seems so dull by comparison.
Guess I'll join a Moose Lodge.....

When people ask their doctor, I wonder how much he actually knows about safety and the actual risk

While your average MD (based on my experiences...) won't know as much about the molecular details as a scientist working in the field, they'll still know MUCH more than a layperson patient. Enough that they can truly make an informed decision.

I'll bet you can't tell me the basic premise behind vaccines and why they are effective (try and explain it without looking it up first).

given all the coverups/business as usual that has gone on?

Oh please, conspiracy theory bullshit.

Vaccines do not cause autism or any of the slew of diseases you claim.

And before you give some snarky link as a retort, let me give you a bit of advice all but JnD learned here long ago-prisonplanet.com is not a valid source.

Vaccines do not cause autism or any of the slew of diseases you claim.

#27 | Posted by jpw

Amen to that.

When did measels become the black plague? When it is being used to bludgeon those who have made decisions for themselves and their family is when...

Assuming the research is sound, you don't have to work for the infectious diseases department of the CDC to read statistics.

Though it sounds very dramatic to proclaim the return of measels with an infection rate of .000003 percent of the population of New York City. Well, either dramatic or retarded.

If it's so important to you, go get your vaccine and go fuck yourself.

If it's so important to you, go get your vaccine and go fuck yourself.

#29 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

Okay so when a baby, not old enough to get the vaccine yet, dies of Measles because some dumb fuck parent didn't get their kid vaccinated because Jenny McCarthy said it's bad. That'll be okay because the parents made the choice they wanted to make. But then they should be charged with manslaughter.

Okay so when a baby, not old enough to get the vaccine yet, dies of Measles because some dumb fuck parent didn't get their kid vaccinated because Jenny McCarthy said it's bad. That'll be okay because the parents made the choice they wanted to make. But then they should be charged with manslaughter.

Spare me the hyperbolic bullshit. You sound like the neocons who love to bring up the "24-Jack Bauer-Nuke in a City" canard when the torture arguement comes up.

...four children aged < 15 months. No deaths were reported.

Hyperbole meet reality.

Formatting is a bitch when you're quoting passages with "less than" being used...heh.

..four children aged < 15 months. No deaths were reported.

Hyperbole meet reality.

#32 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

I didn't say it has happened but if the trends continue that it will happen.

What I actually expect might happen first is that a parent who participated in a Chicken Pox party will have a kid develop encephalitis and die and then they'll try to find someone to sue.

I hate measles to pieces!

I didn't say it has happened but if the trends continue that it will happen.

What trend? 26 in a city of 8.3 million is not a trend.

130 in a country of 330+ million is not a trend.

Idiots. Of course these anti-vax freaks will be the first to sue when one of thier kids dies.

Watch "Mix MMS" - A YouTube production explaining the MMS protocol Watch a child with malaria being administered MMS ("Mercy Drops") by a physician (also here on YouTube) ... Chickenpox, Smallpox, Cold Sores and Measles ...

On vaccines:

1. ALL vaccines have risks, some more than others. The Smallpox vaccine, for example, is a fairly nasty one. Deal with it.

2. In an environment where a person might come into contact with a serious disease, the risk of vaccine (autism risks included) is TRIVIAL compared to the disease.

3. In an environment free of a disease, the vaccine offers risk for no benefit (thus we stopped giving the smallpox vaccine).

4. In cases where a successful vaccination program has eliminated local disease, STUPID/SELFISH people might decline vaccination, relying on herd immunity to shield them (let others take the tiny vaccine risk, while they take no vaccine risk).

If it is adults getting sick, its poetic justice. If it is their kids, the responsible adults should have their faces rubbed in their own stupidity and selfishness.

I don't believe the autism myth, but EVEN IF TRUE, vaccines are still better than the alternative.

I don't believe the autism myth, but EVEN IF TRUE, vaccines are still better than the alternative.

Posted by USAF242

polio shots by salks certainly did work

tamiflu shots powered by rumsfelt profits don't..

#27 jpw -
prisonplanet.com is not a valid source
Nice, discredit the one and best source against the propagandist eugenicists. Nothing anyone has said has disproven any of the links/evidences provided.

Saying a site isn't a valid source doesn't disprove anything.

#31 - iraqburke quoting cdc.gov
Why in the world would you quote CDC? Did anyone read the very disturbing CDC coverup? Maybe you missed the fact they abused their powers and forced everyone to leave their very disturbing documents at the door and shut their mouths or lose their licenses.

Scroll up and find the link or google it yourselves!

And NOBODY has had anything to say about the Airforce 2025 report where they in 1996 predicted 30 million to die by swine flu in 2009. Don't you think that is slightly relevant to the whole argument? The Air force must have hired amazing astrologers!!!

And NOBODY has had anything to say about the Airforce 2025 report where they in 1996 predicted 30 million to die by swine flu in 2009. Don't you think that is slightly relevant to the whole argument? The Air force must have hired amazing astrologers!!!

So far, they are on par with every other astrologer out there- WRONG.

Why in the world would you quote CDC? Did anyone read the very disturbing CDC coverup? Maybe you missed the fact they abused their powers and forced everyone to leave their very disturbing documents at the door and shut their mouths or lose their licenses.

The only reason I quoted CDC was their data shows no deaths from measles during this "devastating" outbreak. Nobody wants you to shoot your kids up more than them, yet their own data is not consistent with their handwringing.

If vaccines still contain mercury then they are better of getting measles.

sanity hits fwthom again!

wonder of wonders!

"And NOBODY has had anything to say about the Airforce 2025 report where they in 1996 predicted 30 million to die by swine flu in 2009. Don't you think that is slightly relevant to the whole argument? The Air force must have hired amazing astrologers!!!

#41 | Posted by L_RContrarian "

Swine flu has hit before, so its no big shock that they would predict its return.

How many people have died from it so far? Its July, and I'm pretty sure its no where near 30,000,000.

Regardless, get your damn kids vaccinated. Not because I necessarily care what you do as parents, but if your kids get sick with a disease there is a vaccination for before my kids are old enough for that vaccine it puts them at risk.

Regardless, get your damn kids vaccinated. Not because I necessarily care what you do as parents, but if your kids get sick with a disease there is a vaccination for before my kids are old enough for that vaccine it puts them at risk.

Posted by GreenDad

MMS Protocol works probably far better

"MMS Protocol works probably far better"

In my experience products marketed with the word "miracle" in the title, typically aren't.

I have been bothered with what I thought were bug bites or alergic reaction to detergent. I am not beginning to suspect it is measles. I called my daughter, she's had the same problem and she is going to the doctor to be checked. I sure hope it isn't because she has a month old baby that was too small for the vaccinations.
The drama never ends.

bed bugs?

#46 greendad -
Regardless, get your damn kids vaccinated. Not because I necessarily care what you do as parents, but if your kids get sick with a disease there is a vaccination for before my kids are old enough for that vaccine it puts them at risk.

That's quite a hypothetical there. The propaganda leaks right through in shame.

#46 - greendad
Swine flu has hit before, so its no big shock that they would predict its return.

How many people have died from it so far? Its July, and I'm pretty sure its no where near 30,000,000.

greenie attempts to answer the question. you see nothing odd about in 1996 they say that in 2009 swine flu will kill 30M? you back it up with, "its come and gone", big deal and it's july and we aren't on track for 30M, so it must just be a blip on the screen, right?

did you take more than five seconds or even look at the report?

but if your kids get sick with a disease there is a vaccination for before my kids are old enough for that vaccine it puts them at risk

oh one more thing greenie, are all ten of your foster kids under 1 year old and too young for the vaccines?

#43 | Posted by IraqiBukkake at 2009-07-06 02:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

The only reason I quoted CDC was their data shows no deaths from measles during this "devastating" outbreak. Nobody wants you to shoot your kids up more than them, yet their own data is not consistent with their handwringing.

oh, my bad iraq.

That's quite a hypothetical there.

No it's not, actually. Measles in particular is worrisome for the very reason that infants are susceptible because they aren't vaccinated until after the first year.

The propaganda leaks right through in shame.

What propaganda? He's making a valid point.

did you take more than five seconds or even look at the report?

Do you have more than conjecture and innuendo to back your claims of the swine flu being an engineered virus?

If vaccines still contain mercury then they are better of getting measles.

The didn't contain mercury, they contained thimerasol. Big difference.

Nice, discredit the one and best source against the propagandist eugenicists.

LOL propagandist eugenicists. Good God you people come up with some retarded ass shit. Life must suck being in constant fear of everything.

Nothing anyone has said has disproven any of the links/evidences provided.

As usual, it's not the links that need disproving. It's the ridiculous assertions made by the conspiracy nuts that have little grounding in even the links provided.

Saying a site isn't a valid source doesn't disprove anything.

No, it only proves you're an idiot deluxe for believing everything spewed on them.

If vaccines still contain mercury then they are better of getting measles.

The didn't contain mercury, they contained thimerasol. Big difference

The Verdict on McCain on Thimerosal and Autism

March 3, 2008 by Kristina Chew, PhD
Filed under Politics, Science, Vaccines

Many in the autism community (as noted here and here), and many scientists (here and here, and here, and also here, for starters), have spoken out about Senator John McCain's saying that "there's strong evidence" linking thimerosal for the increase in diagnoses of autism in the US-and political commentators have also been asking, what was the Senator thinking, or not?

#55 - jpw
(too much too copy/paste)
Actually, what you call "conjecture and innuendo", I posted all the answers at the top of the blog if you would make the effort to read past three posts.

You haven't posted a single proof and as such all your "quickie little answers" could accurately labelled conjecture and innuendo.

It's very transparent when multiple people state they have KIDS (plural) but if your kids get sick with a disease there is a vaccination for before my kids are old enough for that vaccine it puts them at risk.

Statistically, it's not common to have more than one kid who has not reached vaccination age.

So, very clearly, the motive is propaganda.

at least JPW didn't vote for McCain...

#55 - jpw

Back to the article, I asked at the very beginning of this blog why the author never bothered to explain how the "debunked theory" was successfully achieved.

Oh, I know, the documents all disappeared from that CDC meeting with all the conspiracy theory scientists shutting up and the evidence never to be seen again.

More wild speculation and innuendo:

#61 | Posted by L_RContrarian at 2009-07-06 05:58 PM | Reply | Flag: idiot

V for Vendetta

"There are no coincidences, only the illusion of coincidences," says V.

JPW- My daughter was vaccinated for measles and then 4 days later came down with measles. She was vaccinated for the flu and the next day had 105 temp. and was in the hospital for a week. For some people vaccinating their kids doesn't work out so nice like it does for the rest of them. My daughter was hospitalized after every time she was vaccinated and we were told one had nothing to do with the other. Under the law you purposed would I get compensated for what the vaccines have done to my loss of work time, our medical bills, our families emotional stress, and the damage being done to my daughter's body? And who would you have pay me for that?

Seems I remember hearing if men get the measles when they are very young, oftentimes they will grow up to be sterile, is that correct? Or am I thinking of a different disease?

well, I had measles at 8 while visiting in Dallas & my ex had abortion, so I'm still assuming it was mine & she still visits, calls & emails me now & then...CC

but she is the only one who knows for sure, right?:>)

JPW- My daughter was vaccinated for measles and then 4 days later came down with measles. She was vaccinated for the flu and the next day had 105 temp. and was in the hospital for a week. For some people vaccinating their kids doesn't work out so nice like it does for the rest of them. My daughter was hospitalized after every time she was vaccinated and we were told one had nothing to do with the other. Under the law you purposed would I get compensated for what the vaccines have done to my loss of work time, our medical bills, our families emotional stress, and the damage being done to my daughter's body? And who would you have pay me for that?

Of course not. You join the eternally noble "sucks to be you" crowd. Sleep well in knowing that your child was vaccine injured for the good of those who could give a fuck what happens to you or your child.

Under the law you purposed would I get compensated for what the vaccines have done to my loss of work time, our medical bills, our families emotional stress, and the damage being done to my daughter's body? And who would you have pay me for that?

Funny thing is, Iraqi, is people like you focus only on the negative aspects of this topic. You only concern yourself with the small minority of cases that are not the norm and judge the entire topic accordingly. Unfortunately, in doing so you are bashing one of the greatest advancements in human history, without which you and many of you friends and loved ones would not be alive today.

While the system is not perfect, it is the best we have and it has made an unfathomable impact on people's lives. I know this is small comfort for the minority, but hopefully through them making that minority known, we can improve the system without losing its benefits as opposed to the current reaction which is to stop vaccinating.

What about those parents who get the MMR shot but their kids still get the disease, will you all compensate us? What a stupid idea.

Or better yet, where is all YOUR compensation since my child's autism's educational costs will affect all you tax payers, her lost wages if she cannot work that won't be paying into the system, or the taxpayer funds that will care for her after I am gone. Or the extra health insurance premiums you all pay to offset her MRIs, GI scopes, her metabolic acidosis, or all the meds needed to support her mitochondrial damage? After all, we're all gonna be footing the bill for at least 2% of children born today, that's how many now have autism and no, it's not better reporting or better diagnosis, it's that many more kids.

The statistics lie. They don't tell us how many kids who get measles were too young to have been immunized or how many kids have their shot but got it anyway. Hate tell tell you, even Merck says the MMR isn't 100% effective. Learn to think critically instead of buying into any yellow journalism out there.

Furthermore, I'd take measles any day over this hell called autism.

"Funny thing is, Iraqi, is people like you focus only on the negative aspects of this topic. You only concern yourself with the small minority of cases that are not the norm and judge the entire topic accordingly."

To me, my child is not a small minority, she is my heart, my cherished angel. If I took your child out & told you I'd suck her brain and health right out of her but not to worry, she's a small minority & it will help so many more would you be happy to comply? I don't think so, not if you have any motherly instincts at all.

This entire issue would be null if real medical research were done to identify those who are physiologically okay with vaccines vs. those who are physiologically devastated. But everyone is so busy arguing over how either march along & roll up your sleeve like a good soldier or you're a leach to stop to acknowledge we need to put a stop to ANY child being harmed. Because I learned the hard way it's a bitter pill to swallow knowing I held down my daughter and allowed her to be physiologically devastated while I was patted on the head for being a good utilitarian.

"did you take more than five seconds or even look at the report?
#52 | POSTED BY L_RCONTRARIAN "

I clicked on the link, it takes me to this page.

Either way, 30,000,000 people aren't going to die from Swine Flu, so who cares?

"Furthermore, I'd take measles any day over this hell called autism.

#70 | Posted by fightingautis"

Sorry to hear you're autistic. Now that you have been brave enough to admit it, maybe afkbabble, eddie, rightnut, and a few others around here will out themselves as autistic too. Good on you for your honesty.

#72 - greenie
Either way, 30,000,000 people aren't going to die from Swine Flu, so who cares?

so how will it happen greenie?

since we've seen how potent the swine flu really is, either
a). weaponize a new strain the vaccine wasn't designed for
b). weaponize the vaccine
c). both

"since we've seen how potent the swine flu really is"

Potent? Huh? How many people have died from it?

#68 - jpw hrsa.gov
was that your link to hrsa?
you should be ashamed. based on the conv, I'm sure you're very aware that that is basically repealed by a provision of the Patriot Act.

______________________________
______________________

The Protecting America in the War on Terror Act of 2005. Inexplicably included with this legislation was a new law to revoke any future vaccine claim against any pharmaceutical company for injury or death!
______________________________
______________________

What about those parents who get the MMR shot but their kids still get the disease, will you all compensate us? What a stupid idea.

If everyone is vaccinated as the schedule calls for, this sort of thing happening will not happen. The only times someone gets measles is if they're exposed by traveling out of the country or are exposed to those who have traveled out of country. Herd immunity covers those in whom the vaccine does not induce significant immunity and it is the loss of effective herd immunity that is the worst consequence of people not vaccinating.

The statistics lie. They don't tell us how many kids who get measles were too young to have been immunized or how many kids have their shot but got it anyway.

If they said this doesn't happen, it would be a lie. It could also be that it's unvaccinated children who are largely coming down with the disease and therefore, the statisticians don't feel the need to note that specific statistic.

#75 - greenie

do you fake that you get it?

It is NOT potent now. But at the same time you concede that 30M will die from it.

What gives?

The Protecting America in the War on Terror Act of 2005. Inexplicably included with this legislation was a new law to revoke any future vaccine claim against any pharmaceutical company for injury or death!

That's because it's not drawing its funding from lawsuits against the pharmaceutical companies.

If you'd read the link, you'd have seen this:

The Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund (Trust Fund) provides funding for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) to compensate vaccine-related injury or death claims for covered vaccines administered on or after October 1, 1988. The Trust Fund is funded by a $0.75 excise tax on each dose of vaccine purchased (i.e., each disease prevented in a dose of vaccine). For example, the excise tax imposed on a dose of trivalent influenza vaccine is $0.75 because it prevents one disease, whereas the excise tax imposed on a dose of the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine is $2.25 because prevents three diseases. The taxable vaccines have also been recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) for routine administration to children.

Ohhhh noooo! Myehhhhhhh!! 1 in 1000 infected may die! Its just like, well its just like any other flu but someone stuck "Swine" in front of it.

No, for the love of God it is not like any other flu with "swine" stuck in front of it. I wish people would stop fucking comparing it to "regular" flu.

"But at the same time you concede that 30M will die from it."

Where did I concede that? I'm mocking that anyone would think such nonsense. The average annual death toll from regular flu is 36,000 in the USA alone. Swine flu deaths in America are around what? 127? something like that.

30,000,000 people aren't going to die from swine flu in 2009.

"No, for the love of God it is not like any other flu with "swine" stuck in front of it. I wish people would stop fucking comparing it to "regular" flu.

#81 | POSTED BY JPW "

Good point jpw, that was an inaccurate statement on my part. Its milder than "regular" flu... by far.

Good point jpw, that was an inaccurate statement on my part. Its milder than "regular" flu... by far.

I apologize for reacting so rudely. It's just that I see statements like this all the time because people have it stuck in their heads that fatality rates are the only measure of importance then when that doesn't pan out, they brush it off.

No one knows where this is going to go and hence, the reason for monitoring it. The most important aspect of the whole thing is the introduction of a strain that the ENTIRE human population is naive to.

Tetra ethyl lead was put in gasoline for 50 years, lead was put in house paint for 100 years, mercury is still put in dental fillings. I wouldn't trust the MFers putting mercury in vaccines or floride in drinking water.

It's all a commie plot to destroy our (POE), purity of essence. We must deny it to them.

No need to apologize. I got a little carried away mocking the idea that its conclusive 30,000,000 will die from "swine" flu in 2009.

Furthermore, I'd take measles any day over this hell called autism.

My God, the idiocy.

Vaccines, fortunately, suffer from being TOO effective. Too many people have lived without experiencing the effects of the diseases we no long worry about (thanks to vaccines) that they have become complacent.

No, I just live autism every day and you do not. I've lived measles as well when my oldest child GOT measles from the shot. Again, I'll pick measles any day.

Tell me how a child smearing his feces for a decade or banging his head until he's broken his skull 3 times by age 3 or at 4 having his colon removed is easier than measles?

But the point is why are we even having this discussion. Because the research has not been done that needs to be done to keep EVERY SINGLE child safe.

"If they said this doesn't happen, it would be a lie. It could also be that it's unvaccinated children who are largely coming down with the disease and therefore, the statisticians don't feel the need to note that specific statistic.

From www.cdc.gov
Of the 64 cases, 54 were associated with importation of measles from other countries into the United States, and 63 of the 64 patients were unvaccinated or had unknown or undocumented vaccination status."

Right, so if they do not keep the statistics they do not have to tell. 63 of the 64 cases were unvaccinated or had unknown/undocumented vaccination status. So that is really saying all 63 *could* have been immunized but they did not know. or that all 63 were under 12 months old and therefore could not be immunized. So the statistics really tell us nothing but attempt to sway us in a way to make it appear they are unimmunized period.

Fightingautism,

You rock.

Your name should be fightingstupidity unfortunately you are losing that battle. You need to stop listening to Jenni Mccarthy and listen to people that have a MD behind their name.

"LOL that's quite a smug statement to make to a person you don't know. I guarantee you I know and understand this topic better than you."

I doubt it, I've read every package insert of every vaccine mfg in the United States and studied more studies that I ever care to imagine, attended autism conferences out the wazzoo and critically weighed both sides of the debate. You may even be surprised to know I used to listen to such ignorant people as Offit until I saw continually those who question vaccine safety had reasonable arguments and those who are offended at the though of questioning the vaccine gods had no response except name-calling.

My premise is simple. Vaccines harm some. Some is not acceptable. Find out why.

I think fightingautism is leaving out the alcohol she consumed while pregnant. Why don't you look for the real culprit as to why your child is the way it is.

BTW have you tried electroshock therapy for your child? I believe that may have the cure you are looking for.

"Posted by TK421"

Why aren't you at your post?

"My premise is simple. Vaccines harm some. Some is not acceptable. Find out why.

#91 | Posted by fightingautism"

Concrete evidence of this? And further, concrete evidence it causes autism?

My heart goes out to anyone with an autistic family member, but I just don't see it being caused by vaccines. The number of autistic children compared to the number of kids getting vaccinated is minute.

No, I just live autism every day and you do not.

True, but that doesn't negate the years of studying biology that I've done.

I've lived measles as well when my oldest child GOT measles from the shot. Again, I'll pick measles any day.

Measles from an attenuated virus, not its fully grown big brother.

Serious question. Was it confirmed and diagnosed as measles or are you just saying it was measles because he had general symptoms of illness shortly after getting the vaccine?

Tell me how a child smearing his feces for a decade or banging his head until he's broken his skull 3 times by age 3 or at 4 having his colon removed is easier than measles?

I didn't say autism would be easier, just that saying you'd prefer measles is rather stupid.

Why not prefer neither?

But the point is why are we even having this discussion. Because the research has not been done that needs to be done to keep EVERY SINGLE child safe.

I can agree with that.

However, there's on little problem. Research is being done and vaccines there are connstant attempts to refine them. Whether or not they make it to market is another issue as what company is going to sink money into the clinical trials and such when they have a viable vaccine already on the market? I know I'm equating children to dollars, but that's how a company will think about it.

I doubt it, I've read every package insert of every vaccine mfg in the United States and studied more studies that I ever care to imagine, attended autism conferences out the wazzoo and critically weighed both sides of the debate.

But do you have a grasp of the underlying biology and science? All that reading is useless if you can't integrate it into a larger picture.

You may even be surprised to know I used to listen to such ignorant people as Offit...

LOL now that's smug. Calling one of the foremost experts on vaccines in the country ignorant.

...until I saw continually those who question vaccine safety had reasonable arguments and those who are offended at the though of questioning the vaccine gods had no response except name-calling.

What a complete load of horsehit. There's nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that some people may be harmed by vaccines. Going the next step, however, and advocating for people to not get vaccinated (ie Jenny McCarthy) is fucking foolish and dangerous.

My premise is simple. Vaccines harm some. Some is not acceptable. Find out why.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a doctor who didn't agree. However, the ability to do so is only becoming available and until now had been described with the vague terminology of "host factors."

My heart goes out to anyone with an autistic family member, but I just don't see it being caused by vaccines. The number of autistic children compared to the number of kids getting vaccinated is minute.

Not to mention all available evidence points to vaccines not causing autism.

Funny thing is that she probably thought that she would get the sympathy treatment here. Instead she got the truth. That made her run for the comfort of her conspiracy theory blogs.

My heart goes out to anyone with an autistic family member, but I just don't see it being caused by vaccines. The number of autistic children compared to the number of kids getting vaccinated is minute.

The number of kids who are harmed from measles in the United States is minute. Yet you argue in the case of measles it's wrong but suggest it's acceptable in/for autism. Using the numbers argument will lose the argument. Statistically speaking it's easier to get autism than pertussis, even at the peak of pertussis outbreaks.

I stand by my premise and look for no sympathy. I'm a proud conservative who doesn't believe in handouts. I also believe in science. In the suggestion of Dr. Healy, science should not be afraid to ask the questions simply because of what one may find. 2% of the pediatric population is a lot. 5% of the population or more in the Somalis of Minneapolis is even more. We could study those. We could study immunized vs. nonimmunized using the rule of large numbers rather than deliberately obsuring a sample size so small it's not valid before we start. We could throw out studies that are not valid, such as Madsen, VerStraten where sample collection methods were changed during data collection, where data was thrown out with no explanation as to why, where data was lost. According to *good* science you disclose your data and if it cannot be replicated, it's not a valid study. According to *good* science you do not run numbers simply to find a number that fits with the outcome you hope to have. I'm not making the rules, science does, and these researchers have not played by scientific rules and NOTHING is happening to retract their studies.

Blasting Jenny McCarthy does not have any impact on me or the issue of vaccines and the link to autism. It may make you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that vaccines harm some, let's find out why.

I'm not blasting Offit, I'm calling him on what he says. He says theoretically the body could tolerate 10,000 antigens as if that proves vaccines cannot cause harm when it's been proven time and time and time again that vaccines can and do cause harm, even death. He will not response to reasonable scientific questioning and will not acknowledge that vaccines can and to harm some, including his first rotavirus that killed several infants. That is not okay. Ask the parents of those children if it is okay that the shots killed their children.

Ironic there was a chelation death due to a drug error and that has been twisted to equate to all chelation bad all the time (even though it's a mainstream medical treatment) while offit's vaccines have killed infants and it's suggested acceptable. That's not rational at all.

Again, vaccines to cause harm to some. Let's find out why.

Current vaccines given during the first six months of life have essentially no mercury, except trace amounts, Dr. Orenstein said. "There is virtually no mercury."

Vaccines today are much more highlypurified than in the past, he said. "They are not being overloaded with antigenic proteins."

In addition, Dr. Orenstein concluded, "epidemiological evidence shows no relationship between those with multiple immunizations and asthma nor infections."

"There have been enough studies done trying to link autism to vaccines," Carden Johnston, MD, past president of the American Academy of Pediatrics of Birmingham, AL, told Medscape. "Ever since Ed Jenner started smallpox vaccinations, there have been public groups trying to link vaccines to morbidity." Research funds should be spent on more productive areas, he concluded.

"However, there's on little problem. Research is being done and vaccines there are connstant attempts to refine them. Whether or not they make it to market is another issue as what company is going to sink money into the clinical trials and such when they have a viable vaccine already on the market? I know I'm equating children to dollars, but that's how a company will think about it."

I agree with you. That is why parents should have choice because we (or at least most parents) will choose for our children based on our child's best interest, not equate him or her to dollars.

Before I had my last child I read cover-to-cover every package insert of every vaccine licensed in the US, read about every disease for which there is an immunization from cdc.gov, infection rates, and complications from each disease. Additionally I come from 3 generations of health care workers. I spoke to my grandmothers born before 1925 and asked them about what they remember and saw. I made an informed consent, yet those who do not know me would call me names. I did not base my child's health off a financial statement, or a study of lawsuit potential. I made it based off my research as well as prayer to my Savior for His divine guidance.

Nothing is worse to me than a parent saying they did/did not immunize "just because" without any research into the issue. Parents ask me frequently should they immunize. I tell them every time that I cannot answer that for them, all I can tell them to do is research and make sure they make a choice they and their child can live with.

Again, vaccines harm some. Let's find out why. Ideally those who can tolerate vaccines could be immunized and those who cannot would not be.

Vaccines didn't due shit to your kid. Either you did or it was genetics. Time for you to face reality.

When your kid gets polio from some illegal aliens kid let's see how stupid you feel then.

Autism May Be Linked to Mom's Autoimmune Disease
07.06.09, 12:00 PM EDT
Possible causes of disorder should now include celiac disease, study suggests

MONDAY, July 6 (HealthDay News) -- Children of mothers who have autoimmune diseases such as type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis and celiac disease have up to a three times greater risk for autism, a new study finds.

Although the association between autism and a maternal history of type 1 diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis had been found in earlier research, the researchers behind the new study say that theirs is the first to find a link between autism and celiac disease. People with celiac disease cannot tolerate gluten, a protein in wheat, rye and barley.

"This finding reinforces the suggestion that autoimmune processes are connected somehow with the cause of autism and autism spectrum disorder," said researcher William W. Eaton, chairman of the Department of Mental Health at the Bloomberg School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University. "This finding is on the pathway of finding the cause of autism."

All reasonable science disproves your quack theory about vaccines. sorry about your kid but it wasn't from vaccines.

Yet you argue in the case of measles it's wrong but suggest it's acceptable in/for autism. Using the numbers argument will lose the argument. Statistically speaking it's easier to get autism than pertussis, even at the peak of pertussis outbreaks.

Please tell me you see the irony in what you're saying and why your argument is ridiculous.

5% of the population or more in the Somalis of Minneapolis is even more. We could study those.

That doesn't scream "GENETIC CAUSATION" to you?

We could study immunized vs. nonimmunized using the rule of large numbers rather than deliberately obsuring a sample size so small it's not valid before we start

You would never be able to get funding for that sort of study because it is unethical. Vaccines are an amazingly well supported method of disease prevention and denying that to people for the sake of a study would never fly.

Studies have been done on voluntarily unvaccinated populations (ie the Amish) but the numbers are too small and have the problem you're attempting to solve.

According to *good* science you disclose your data and if it cannot be replicated, it's not a valid study.

I love it when laypeople preach about "good science." (correct me if I'm wrong about you being a non-scientist-your comments make me think you're not...). And here is an example of where you're right and yet wrong.

Scientists do no give much weight to unreplicated data. However, in epidemiological studies like those conducted disproving a link between autism and vaccines, replication of results is not easy if not impossible. Expecting this is demanding the impmossible.

According to *good* science you do not run numbers simply to find a number that fits with the outcome you hope to have. I'm not making the rules, science does, and these researchers have not played by scientific rules and NOTHING is happening to retract their studies.

You're going to have to get specific here if you want to be taken seriously.

Current vaccines given during the first six months of life have essentially no mercury, except trace amounts, Dr. Orenstein said. "There is virtually no mercury."

Bad argument. Is the mercury measured to ensure it is below EPA safe guidelines for body weight? What is the cumulative effect with the aluminum in the vaccines. What is the cumulative effect when combined with all vaccines given at one time? What if the child has been on certain antibiotics which may may/not act as poor chelators and possibly take up mercury faster into the brain? What is the effect of antibiotics that may/may not act as poor chelators on the aluminum and mercury combined? What is that effect with low birth weight babies? What is the effect if baby has low b-12 or folate and MTHFR mutations so that the lower b-12 and lower folate levels are further inhibiting the methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase? What if this same baby is given Tylenol while all this stuff is going on? It's not as simple as "well, there's not as much of it as there used to be."

Jackass-

When your kid gets polio from some illegal aliens kid let's see how stupid you feel then.

#104 | Posted by jackass at 2009-07-06 11:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

When your kid matures to become an ignorant xenophobic jackass just like you, I'm not sure if I'll be able to tell your stupid kid apart from the foreign rabble....

"cientists do no give much weight to unreplicated data. However, in epidemiological studies like those conducted disproving a link between autism and vaccines, replication of results is not easy if not impossible. Expecting this is demanding the impmossible. "

No, it's not. You use the same parameters. Epidemiological studies still have defined parameters. If I study incidence of leukemia in children to prove there is/is not a rise and study hospital admissions from say Atlanta for a year, then study hospitals from Athens for a couple more years, then study hospitals from the entire state of GA to prove cancer rates got bigger, is that a good sample?

What do you do in science?

When your kid matures to become an ignorant xenophobic jackass just like you,

I have higher hopes for that kid. First of all, he won't want to have anything to do with his jerkwad father as the father doesn't have anything to do with him. I'm also sure that the kid will work very hard to be the polar opposite of him anyway.

" First of all, he won't want to have anything to do with his jerkwad father as the father doesn't have anything to do with him."

That's too bad for the father and for your son. Fathers are very important to kids, too bad your sperm donor doesn't realize what he's missing out on.

He says theoretically the body could tolerate 10,000 antigens as if that proves vaccines cannot cause harm when it's been proven time and time and time again that vaccines can and do cause harm, even death.

It's not really fair to blast him on that statement as you're taking it out of context. He made that statement as a specific retort to charges that vaccines were "overloading" childrens' immune systems, a charge that is ridiculous to anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of immunology.

And it has NOT been proven time and time and time again. Post links, otherwise you're pissing in the wind.

He will not response to reasonable scientific questioning and will not acknowledge that vaccines can and to harm some, including his first rotavirus that killed several infants. That is not okay. Ask the parents of those children if it is okay that the shots killed their children.

He probably won't make that type of admission publicly because it will be taken out of context and used in some unintended, twisted way (see your misquote of him above...). Also, many of the points brought up by people in the anti-vax movement have been addressed to the point of absurdity. His refusal to go around that circle one more time is in no way indicative of him not supporting vaccine refinement. Finally, is his rotavirus vaccine still used? No, so it's irrelevant.

Ideally those who can tolerate vaccines could be immunized and those who cannot would not be.

Another unreasonable request as we do not have this capability. Should it be looked in to? Absolutely. But that level of individualized medicine is still a long way off.

Here is a good article on the benefits of electroshock therapy on autistic kids

Fightingautism,

Both Betleg and I were talking about Jackass. Not you.

I don't necessarily agree with your argument though.

Betelg you know I am right. Parents that don't immunize their kids put their kids at risk. In california the kids from 3rd world countries are causing previously thought to be extinct illnesses to make a comeback. It's the dumb hippie's kids that always get sick because they don't vaccinate their children.

It's not absurd for offit to answer the questions. He's got a new vaccine out. Why should I trust to inject my child with a vaccine that he created when his first one killed children. He has not addressed them, that's a way for you to avoid the issue. I've not misquoted him at all, I've not quoted him at all. I've paraphrased. He does not support vaccine refinement when he states vaccines do not cause harm. It is a lie, it's on every package insert that vaccines can cause harm, including death.

He also has said risks outweigh benefits. He cannot quantify that and therefore it's an illogical statement. In order for the risks to outweigh the benefits one would have to quantify all risks and then quantify all benefits. Assuming vaccines do cause autism for the sake of the argument, one would have to assert not immunizing for, say polio, is riskier than immunizing. We know at its peak polio harmed about 1 in 1000, but only of those who got polio. So the risk of lifelong disabling results from polio are mathematically lower than the risk of immunizing. Now we do not know that the polio vaccine does cause autism, but we do not know 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt that it does not cause any complication ever, so there's that to consider, as well.

Individualize medicine is a simple as my taking my infant to my HCP and discussing the issue and informing that I do/do not consent. That is individualized medicine and it is here, the government needs to stop trying to make it utilitarian.

"Parents that don't immunize their kids put their kids at risk. In california the kids from 3rd world countries are causing previously thought to be extinct illnesses to make a comeback. It's the dumb hippie's kids that always get sick because they don't vaccinate their children"

I would argue letting in all the illegal aliens is what's putting them at risk. What is your evidence that hippy kids are the ones getting sick? There have been no studies done on non-immunized children to prove that. In fact, every unimmunized child I know save one are extremely healthy.

Feel free for your kids to get polio or whatever other illnesses pops up from the new exchange student. The rest of the kids will be ok since their parents were born with a brain. I would say you lost the argument to real science but it's your kids that will lose due to your stupidity.

Jackass, it's impossible to even attempt to have an intelligent exchange with you, huh. My kids won't get polio, I'm breastfeeding them until they go off to college.

You are sick and have metal illness. Social services needs to be contacted.

My kids won't get polio, I'm breastfeeding them until they go off to college.

okay, I'm intrigued now.

No, it's not. You use the same parameters. Epidemiological studies still have defined parameters.

But you will always have sampling bias. You can minimize it as best you can, but there is always issues to sampling bias and because of that no two retrospective studies will be the same.

If I study incidence of leukemia in children to prove there is/is not a rise and study hospital admissions from say Atlanta for a year, then study hospitals from Athens for a couple more years, then study hospitals from the entire state of GA to prove cancer rates got bigger, is that a good sample?

What you're describing is simply taking statistics on incidence rates of leukemia. Now throw in an attempt to analyze a causative factor or association, and then you'll have a comparable analogy.

What do you do in science?

I'm a virologist.

It's not absurd for offit to answer the questions. He's got a new vaccine out. Why should I trust to inject my child with a vaccine that he created when his first one killed children. He has not addressed them, that's a way for you to avoid the issue.

Because it's not as if he's producing the stuff in his garage and selling it via infomercial. If he "has" a new vaccine out, all that means is he developed the antigen that is being used and did the proof of principle experiments.

As for him not addressing questions, I guess you're thinking of different questions than I am. Most of my experience with this topic has shown that most people continually ask the same questions without hearing the answers.

He also has said risks outweigh benefits.

Are you sure you don't have this backwards?

As per the rest of that segment, you can't calculate it piecemeal like that. Sure, there may be a higher chance of getting autism from the vaccine than actually getting poliomyelitis, but that doesn't take in to account something else getting you.

Individualize medicine is a simple as my taking my infant to my HCP and discussing the issue and informing that I do/do not consent. That is individualized medicine and it is here

That's not quite what I meant.

I mean individualized as in being able to test individuals and see whether or not a treatment/vaccine will react negatively.

Everyone must take the mercury. It is only a small amount so don't worry. When everyone is mad as a hatter who will notice.

Dr. Jim Jones

Funny thing is, Iraqi, is people like you focus only on the negative aspects of this topic. You only concern yourself with the small minority of cases that are not the norm and judge the entire topic accordingly. Unfortunately, in doing so you are bashing one of the greatest advancements in human history, without which you and many of you friends and loved ones would not be alive today.

You're right, I am focused on the negative aspects of this topic. But I think my position is a bit more complex than just "vaccine bad". If you want to get a vaccine, go knock yourself out. I have no issue with you doing whatever you want with your body. However, I expect the same courtesy in return when I refuse these vaccines for myself and my children. This is the point in which we have a failure to communicate.

I had heard about and have now personally experienced that parents who take what a doctor tells them without an iota of consideration are thoughtful, and those who have spent their own time reviewing the research and making an informed decision against the doctor's wishes are not.

Furthermore, taking a common sense approach on vaccinations is met with disgust...simply because you aren't bowing down to the Gods aka doctors. For example, my infant son is neither an intravenous drug user or having unprotected sex...so why does he need a Hep B vaccine? He doesn't. But God is following his/her guidelines and they say shoot him up! Sorry...not happening.

Then we could talk about what is in these vaccines that may appear benign now and leads to significant problems down the road. SV40 comes to mind. Baxter and their recent bird flu vaccine issues. The HPV vaccine that is supposed to protect you from certain strains of HPV...unless you've previously been exposed to them then it dramatically increases your risk for some cancers. The only new cases of polio since the advent of the polio vaccine are from the polio vaccine itself. We see repeated examples of vaccines that protect you from one thing, and give you another.

Then we could talk about how devastating some of these diseases really are with first world healthcare, food and water supplies. Measles, Mumps and Rubella aren't really that dangerous. Tetanus is, so my wife and I are considering giving that vaccine to our son at some point. Of course, our position may change if we go to a foreign country.

Also we could talk about the potential risks associated with multiple vaccines at a time being given and how they interact with each other. There is very little research in this area, as most studies are focused on the impact of each vaccine's effect in a vacuum.

I would love to talk at further length about this, but unfortunately, my wife is the one with the ability to pull up these studies and review them in detail. I do consider myself very lucky to have a wife that has access to pull the actual studies to review hard numbers and a is PhD level researcher with a skillset to interpret these studies. Most do not have that luxury.

"Jackass, it's impossible to even attempt to have an intelligent exchange with you, huh.

#120 | Posted by fightingautism"

That took a while for you to figure out. Better late than never, I guess.

#68,80 - jpw
That's because it's not drawing its funding from lawsuits against the pharmaceutical companies.

(L_R)The Protecting America in the War on Terror Act of 2005. Inexplicably included with this legislation was a new law to revoke any future vaccine claim against any pharmaceutical company for injury or death!

jpw, these quotes are now buried, but I'm still calling you out on what you implied.

In #68, you told the poster (Ruandrade #64) who asked if she could get compensated to go to www.hrsa.gov and Make your case.

Then you later explain away my ascertion that the Patriot Act trumped any possible compensation: That's because it's not drawing its funding from lawsuits against the pharmaceutical companies.

I have no idea if there is a "reason" as you say. The point is, you made a misleading suggestion that she could get compensated. A blantant lie! And attempted coverup.

You are exposed.

#72 - greendad
Either way, 30,000,000 people aren't going to die from Swine Flu, so who cares?

#82 - greendad
"But at the same time you concede that 30M will die from it."

Where did I concede that? I'm mocking that anyone would think such nonsense. The average annual death toll from regular flu is 36,000 in the USA alone. Swine flu deaths in America are around what? 127? something like that.

30,000,000 people aren't going to die from swine flu in 2009.

So, you ask when did you concede? Uh, in #72. Some people do make an effort to backcheck people's words. That's not even to mention the ridiculous statement about you being scared for your pre-vaccinated kids.

Are you and jpw blood brothers?

Here's the full log in case you wish to "worm out" and say it's out of context.

LR>Warning: conjecture and innuendo
Air Force 2025

#46 - greendad
Swine flu has hit before, so its no big shock that they would predict its return.

How many people have died from it so far? Its July, and I'm pretty sure its no where near 30,000,000.

greenie attempts to answer the question. you see nothing odd about in 1996 they say that in 2009 swine flu will kill 30M? you back it up with, "its come and gone", big deal and it's july and we aren't on track for 30M, so it must just be a blip on the screen, right?

did you take more than five seconds or even look at the report?
#52 | POSTED BY L_RCONTRARIAN "

I clicked on the link, it takes me to this page.

#72 | Posted by GreenDad at 2009-07-06 07:05 PM |
Either way, 30,000,000 people aren't going to die from Swine Flu, so who cares?

so how will it happen greenie?

since we've seen how potent the swine flu really is, either
a). weaponize a new strain the vaccine wasn't designed for
b). weaponize the vaccine
c). both

#74 | Posted by L_RContrarian at 2009-07-06 07:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

"since we've seen how potent the swine flu really is"

Potent? Huh? How many people have died from it?
#75 - greenie

do you fake that you get it?

It is NOT potent now. But at the same time you concede that 30M will die from it.

What gives?

#79 | Posted by L_RContrarian at 2009-07-06 07:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ohhhh noooo! Myehhhhhhh!! 1 in 1000 infected may die! Its just like, well its just like any other flu but someone stuck "Swine" in front of it.

No, for the love of God it is not like any other flu with "swine" stuck in front of it. I wish people would stop fucking comparing it to "regular" flu.

#81 | Posted by jpw at 2009-07-06 08:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

"But at the same time you concede that 30M will die from it."

Where did I concede that? I'm mocking that anyone would think such nonsense. The average annual death toll from regular flu is 36,000 in the USA alone. Swine flu deaths in America are around what? 127? something like that.

30,000,000 people aren't going to die from swine flu in 2009

If 100 times 30 million died of swine flu the world would be betterr off.

One of the early symptoms is repeating consonants.

ok, fwt, So you are volunteering? Or you're too important to be part of the 3Billion? All eugenicists out there, if you volunteer yourselves, your goal could be achieved. You'd all be hailed heroes!

Science isn't a process of posting whatever bit of batshit insanity you can think of to the internet and then challenging other people to prove you wrong. If you want to make a claim, bring some fucking evidence, or piss the fuck off. Stupidity is usually entertaining, but sooner or later people will die because of people who buy this crap.

#7 | Posted by ZombieHunter

Amen..the anti vaccine crowd needs to be clubbed like baby seals.

#7 - if you're so sure, take it yourself and quit dictating what others can/should do to their own body.
caution and education is always better than ignorance.