Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, June 29, 2009

A top Republican senator has ordered an investigation into the Environmental Protection Agency's alleged suppression of a report that questioned the science behind global warming.

The 98-page report, co-authored by EPA analyst Alan Carlin, pushed back on the prospect of regulating gases like carbon dioxide as a way to reduce global warming. Carlin's report argued that the information the EPA was using was out of date, and that even as atmospheric carbon dioxide levels have increased, global temperatures have declined.

"He came out with the truth. They don't want the truth at the EPA," Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla, a global warming skeptic, told FOX News, saying he's ordered an investigation. "We're going to expose it."

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Silly liberals the truth always gets out. Next thing you know liberals will be telling us the world is flat and the libtards will eat it up.

While the EPA does not set our energy policy (Congress does), their reports are obviously considered useful in the process. You have to wonder why, of all projects, one turning out to be critical of global warming by pointing out the obvious (temps are down in the last 10 years while CO2 is up) would be squashed. While this sets the stage for a lot of grandstanding by Republicans, there is a story to this.

Hope and change


SUCKERS

Excuse me from interrupting your liberal bashing party but the guy is not even a scientist, has no qualifications to determine the validity of global warming claims...he's an economist. He presented no new information and is obviously just someone who wants to express his opinion though it isn't based on science.
I wonder how good of an economist he is.

#4 | Posted by danni

I doubt you have the qualification either, but I am sure you eat this global warming shit up.

But the scientists say that the world's temperatures have flatlined since 2001, and gone down since 1995. All this guy did was assemble the data. Don't need to be a scientist to read English, do you?

No problemo, though. Who needs science when you've got Barack in the White House, and a 1300-page bill to be voted on in 20 minutes? Hurry!

LMAO. What a bunch of douchebaggery. Silly libs.

"I doubt you have the qualification either, but I am sure you eat this global warming shit up."

You'd be wrong. I have never said that global warming is not real but I also have never been a big proponent for the agenda of the global warming community either. I have felt that, pretty much, the anti-global warming activities can't help but make the environment cleaner and that is worthwhile whether or not global warming is real or not.
At a moment in time such as this, with high unemployment and the need for federal economic stimulus then why not spend it on something that will help move us into the next era. You will see, that, like computers, cell phones, ipods, the technology will lead the economic recovery and high tech answers to ecological problems are going to be the new economy. When you consider the size of the world's population it is obvious that providing the energy without further destroying the planet is then the obvious new growth industry. We want the stimulus to provide capital towards that goal. As many Republicans complain about federal stimulus jobs, they are temporary, not new industries. Perhaps, that is partially why the stimulus bill is not already yielding the jobs creation we wanted, perhaps because it is based more on creating new industries rather than new jobs.

#7 | Posted by danni

With the "cap and tax" those new industries will not be in this country.

This must be the address of the rightwing circle jerk. Carry on.

Perhaps, that is partially why the stimulus bill is not already yielding the jobs creation we wanted, perhaps because it is based more on creating new industries rather than new jobs.
#7 | Posted by danni

I may be wrong, but I thought one of the reasons for this "Stimulus" package was for "shovel ready" projects to get the economy going? Not for new technologies to worm their way through the process, which takes years.

#9 | Posted by moder8

"Cap and tax" leftwing circle jerk.

"I may be wrong, but I thought one of the reasons for this "Stimulus" package was for "shovel ready" projects to get the economy going?"

If you remember, that was one of the biggest criticisms, it didn't dedicate enough money towards "shovel ready projects" and that the portion was, I'm guessing here, less than 20 billion. It could have been more but I do remember it was a surprisingly small percentage of the overall bill. I questioned it myself but now I'm wondering if that isn't the explanation. He's really trying to start new industries not just stimulate some temp jobs. If he succeeds he will be a hero to all, but I really do have to wonder, why would any of us want him to fail. Some brand new whole industries that could create some decent jobs might be sort of a welcome change and if government money needs to stimulate innovation then, unless you got a better suggestion, why the hell not?
If we don't do something our kids lives are really going to suck, shouldn't we, at least, try????

Danni,

I DO NOT want him to fail, I want him to suceed wonderfully trust me. If he fails so does the country and anybody who wants that is insane. I just think he is going about the wrong way, he is trying to socialize us and that will killl this country.

"With the "cap and tax" those new industries will not be in this country."

The basis for our "cap and trade" legislation, passed by the house today, has more to do with American leadership than anything else. If the rest of the nations won't go along with us then we won't just continue to punish ourselves. We are going to expect rapid acceptance by other nations, if it doesn't materialize we don't have to continue policies which penalize us. HOwever, it will act as a, sort of, tariff on China, if they have to actually start cleaning up their inudustry. It will cost them more to manufacture goods. It also provides a basis, for down the road, of enacting trade sanctions against economies that do not comply such as CHINA. I think this bill has more to do with attempting to find a way to effect costs for Chinese manufacturers so that competition would be more possible.

"But the scientists say that the world's temperatures have flatlined since 2001, and gone down since 1995."

#6 | Posted by rightisright at 2009-06-29 08:40 PM | Reply | Flag: bullshit

Temp record: data.giss.nasa.gov

Plot of annual average temps from 1990 to 2008 with a least squares regression linear plot: i179.photobucket.com

You lost him at the word "average".

1.) Carlin is a physicist. To denigrate him as an "economist" (which he is, also) and a "non-scientist" is disingenuous.

2.) He was muzzled. Period. We have independently, directly (and in so many words) confirmed this with an anonymous (but confirmed) source inside the EPA who came forward on WattsUpWithThat. This source was confirmed by Mr. Watts and "charles the moderator", who put him (her?) in touch with Tom Fuller of the SF Examiner. Mr. Fuller further confirmed the source and wrote it all up.

3.) I do not agree with every bit of the memo (some of the "updated" solar science has been since "updated"), but in the main it was dead on concerning the over ten years of declining temperatures, the oceanic cycles, accumulated hurricane energy, the abominably bad mathematics of the CO2 forcing equation, and other aspects. But Carlin did not even say he believed in every aspect: he merely brought it all up as questions to be addressed by the EPA.

If any one thing and one thing only is correct and all the other points are fatally flawed, it still calls the EPA ruling into very serious question. As it is, several points are dead on. Enough to founder the EPA determination.

But the scientists say that the world's temperatures have flatlined since 2001, and gone down since 1995. All this guy did was assemble the data. Don't need to be a scientist to read English, do you?

Surprise surprise you're dead wrong.

The majority of one's training to as an early scientist is how to think and express oneself concisely yet precisely. Where most laypeople get lost in science is the never ending nuance and subtlety. So no you don't need to be a scientist to read english, however, you do need to be a scientist to read science.

1.) Carlin is a physicist. To denigrate him as an "economist" (which he is, also) and a "non-scientist" is disingenuous.

Is he an atmospheric physicist? Is he any sort of scientist somewhat related to climate or meteorology fields?

Simply being a physicist makes him a scientist, but still unqualified to speak authoritatively on global warming.

Danni, it is amazing how quickly you are willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt even though you have no idea what he is up to. Too bad you didn't support George W. Bush and give him the benefit of the doubt also. You and those like you not only rooted for him to fail you did everything you could to try and make that happen.

Obama is going to fail and I personally want that to happen. Socialism doesn't work and never will. If he fails then the rest of us have a chance to salvage a free nation and make it prosperous again.

Temp record: data.giss.nasa.gov

Plot of annual average temps from 1990 to 2008 with a least squares regression linear plot

I cannot let this pass. Please do not cherrypick. Look at the whole shebang from the end of the last cooling cycle.

First, GISS/NASA is the outlier of the Big Four (GISS, HadCRUT, RSS, UAH) and has an abominable adjustment procedure which exaggerates the trends. If you must eschew the satellite record, at least go with HadCRUT.

Second, no one denies that temperatures rose from 1977 to 1998. The Big Six oceanic-atmospheric multidecadal oscillations (PDO, SO, AMO, NAO, AO, AAO) all flipped from cold phase to warm (on schedule), one by one from 1976 to 2001. And temperatures rose.

From 2001 to 2007 they all remained in warm phase. In 2007, the PDO went into cool phase (with the NAO and AMO set to follow on). And temperatures have heeled over and begun to decline.

Satellite records show May temperatures to have been under 0.1C above the 1977 - 2009 average. And that's the state of the current wicket.

At the very least, the natural cycles appear to overwhelm a weak CO2 signal. CO2 may play a role, but at best one of backseat driver, and a timid one, at that.

This is not even to mention solar cycle 24, which seems to have gone AWOL, and may (or may not) be well on the way to validating DeVries cyclic theory, in which case we are in for some serious cooling chop.

"Surprise surprise you're dead wrong."

It's illustrative to take the temperature record since the beginning of the industrial revolution data.giss.nasa.gov and plot the January through December averages with an 8 year running average.

i179.photobucket.com

The only flatline is rightiswrong's EEG.

Hell, it even trended down a bit from the mid-40's to about 1970.

"1974
Serious droughts since 1972 increase concern about climate, with cooling from aerosols suspected to be as likely as warming; scientists are doubtful as journalists talk of a new ice age."
www.aip.org

Is he an atmospheric physicist? Is he any sort of scientist somewhat related to climate or meteorology fields?

No, but neither is the head of the IPCC or EPA, for that matter. Futhermore, Carlin did none of the original research. He merely collated the efforts of other peer-reviewed, prominent specialists (some right, some probably wrong) and presented them to the EPA for consideration. He was quashed and reassigned.

(BTW, Anthony Watts, who plays a role in this story, is a meteorologist of many, many years.)

I am no scientist. But climate change is an incredibly interdisciplinary study. Physics, archeology, climatology, oceanography, meteorology, astrophysics, geology, mathematics, statistics, dendrochronology and many other fields are vital in the study of current and paleo- climate. Even history and literature play a surprisingly important role.

As war is far to important to be left to the generals, thus is climate far too important to be left to the climatologists. Why, next thing you know, they'd be trying to "get rid of the Medieval Warm Period", the beastly little horrors! Can't have that, can we?

He merely collated the efforts of other peer-reviewed, prominent specialists (some right, some probably wrong) and presented them to the EPA for consideration. He was quashed and reassigned.

But without a background that would allow him to interpret or assess the data, his input is as good as any layman's (read "worthless").

And have you read the actual report? Do you know that it wasn't a rehashing and repackaging of already used talking points? Fox Noise and others clearly want to turn this into some conspiracy of grand proportions; however, I found the article to largely be content free and about nothing more than a bunch of idiot politicians spouting off on a topic they likely know nothing about.

I am no scientist. But climate change is an incredibly interdisciplinary study. Physics, archeology, climatology, oceanography, meteorology, astrophysics, geology, mathematics, statistics, dendrochronology and many other fields are vital in the study of current and paleo- climate. Even history and literature play a surprisingly important role.

I don't deny that as most sciences today are interdisciplinary.

However, all those disciplines aren't working together blindly. The physicists, archeologists, climatologists, oceanographers, meteorologists, astrophysicists, geologists, mathematicians, statisticians and dendochronologists understand how their work fits into the larger picture by working in the field. Has Carlin worked in climate related sciences prior to his writing his "report" or is this out of the blue and largely due to his personal colorings of the topic?

But without a background that would allow him to interpret or assess the data, his input is as good as any layman's (read "worthless").

I'd say a degree in physics would allow him to do that. But, regardless, he was merely bringing it to the the attention of the EPA climate group. The job of interpretation would be on them.

And have you read the actual report?

Yes, the original draft. It was a surprisingly easy read, actually. (Well, I was already at least somewhat familiar with all of the major points.)

Do you know that it wasn't a rehashing and repackaging of already used talking points?

It was a lot of abstracts and extracts followed by his comments. No doubt many of them have been reduced to talking points by others, but Carlin did not present them as such.

Fox Noise and others clearly want to turn this into some conspiracy of grand proportions; however, I found the article to largely be content free and about nothing more than a bunch of idiot politicians spouting off on a topic they likely know nothing about.

Well, it is not the job of politicians to be the experts. They must rely on expert opinion to make decisions. It is therefore incumbent upon the experts to have carefully considered both sides of the issue, regardless of what they eventually conclude. That is their role. Instead, they went unquestioningly with IPCC AR4 (much of which I've also read--it's much longer and very fragmented) and did not consider any of the counter-arguments, whatever.

However, all those disciplines aren't working together blindly. The physicists, archeologists, climatologists, oceanographers, meteorologists, astrophysicists, geologists, mathematicians, statisticians and dendochronologists understand how their work fits into the larger picture by working in the field.

Unfortunately they have, for the most part, been working both separately and blindly. It is all just beginning to coalesce. The field itself is not young, but only recently has become "sexy". Therefore it is taking a little time getting its act together.

Has Carlin worked in climate related sciences prior to his writing his "report" or is this out of the blue and largely due to his personal colorings of the topic?

As best as I know, he is one of the very many scientists who once ascribed to CO2/AGW theory but have since jumped ship. But it doesn't matter, as it's not his job to evaluate, but merely to adduce issues for the climate specialists of the EPA to evaluate.

He was just the guy who shouted "fire". It was up to the actual firemen to deal with it. Instead, they willfully ignored the (very real) fire and pranged him with a false charge of false alarm.

I have felt that, pretty much, the anti-global warming activities can't help but make the environment cleaner and that is worthwhile whether or not global warming is real or not.

I do not agree. I don't believe all this crap will make the planet any cleaner. B U T, even if it did make some improvement, what good would a cleaner planet be to your children if they have no jobs? If they starve to death in the streets? If people 30 years from now think of the great depression as the good ole days?

Really, how much money are you willing to give the gov't for the lie that they will make the planet cleaner by moving your job from the US, which has environmental laws, to places like China that doesn't? You think the shit China dumps in the air is only going to kill their kids?

As for Obama deciding what outcome they want from a gov't agency and then having all opposing views ignored... isn't that what they blame the Bush admin for doing in Iraq?

They all want to hang bush, and suck obama's dick... gotta love the lemmings on the left.

"1.) Carlin is a physicist. To denigrate him as an "economist" (which he is, also) and a "non-scientist" is disingenuous."

Not according to the article. You have other information about him then post a link, otherwise, he is not a scientist.

"I'd say a degree in physics would allow him to do that."

Actually, a degree in physics would be valuable at NASA perhaps, not so much in evaluating data connected to global warming.

Actually, a degree in physics would be valuable at NASA perhaps, not so much in evaluating data connected to global warming.

Why? Statistics are statistics. Analysis is analysis. It doesn't matter if they are cumulus clouds or chocolate bars, if you know how to do statistical analysis, you can interpret the data.

"Simply being a physicist makes him a scientist, but still unqualified to speak authoritatively on global warming."

He never purported to speak authoritatively on anything. His task was to assemble data. And when it looked like that data presented questions that the global warming freaks didn't want to answer, they told him to stop.

Of course, if you can attack the guy's qualifications to do something he never tried to do, that's easier than facing reality.

Even if he were a scientist and has credibility, it is clear that his scientific opinion is in the minority - If the vast majority of scientists, in and out of the EPA, interpret the findings differently, why should this guy's opinion be taken as gospel and that of the others be construed as a muzzle conspiracy.
I find it much more likely that given the Bush Administration had a very strong pro-industry agenda, he probably appointed this guy in the first place as part of its neutering of the EPA. The real scientists who were muzzled because their findings ran contrary to economic policy are now back in charge, rightfully so. The remaining global warming sceptics in the EPA such as this guy are back to being the minorty, not because of muzzling, rather because the EPA focus is being restored to what it is supposed to be - concerned with facts and the environment, not how they frustrate industry.

Statistical noise: 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of samples. Using annual temps from 2001 to 2008 means N is 7 and 1/sqrt(N)=0.378, the error bars are huge.

Going back to the record,

data.giss.nasa.gov

and plotting each month since January 2001 gives the following graph, where the blue dots are each month, the green line an 11-month running average, and the red line a linear fit to the data.

i179.photobucket.com

Sorry, slope's positive.

Even if he were a scientist and has credibility, it is clear that his scientific opinion is in the minority - If the vast majority of scientists, in and out of the EPA, interpret the findings differently, why should this guy's opinion be taken as gospel and that of the others be construed as a muzzle conspiracy.

At one point in history, bloodletting was the standard practice of the scientific majority.

There has been a repeated effort to silence those who do not agree with the majority, as demonstrated in many stories on this site. One of the points that is hammered home over and over again is that there is a consensus in the global warming...err...climate change community. There are hundreds of scientists who disagree with this notion.

We have an obligation to ensure that the one trillion in US taxpayer dollars is being used responsibly...regardless if you agree with climate nonsense or not.

and plotting each month since January 2001 gives the following graph, where the blue dots are each month, the green line an 11-month running average, and the red line a linear fit to the data.

i179.photobucket.com

Sorry, slope's positive.

GISS is the outlier.

HadCRUT, RSS, UAH slopes are negative. GISS has diverged considerably of late.

Great stuff EvanJones. Keep it up.

Kinda amusing how the libbies will swallow whatever Al Gore gives them vis a vis climate change and environmentalism, when his training is an undergraduate degree in divinity.

But the many--hundreds, and growing--geologists, meteorologists, climatologists, chemists, earth scientists, and physicists who vehemently dispute this so-called "settled science" aren't sufficiently qualified to weigh in. Amazing how libtards will just agree to whatever gospel a fellow libtard will preach to them. They won't change their lifestyle any, mind you, but they'll demand that something be done, and that we make that guy over there pay for it.

Kinda amusing how the libbies will swallow whatever Al Gore gives them vis a vis climate change and environmentalism, when his training is an undergraduate degree in divinity.

So he can rule out G-d as a cause then.

"his training is an undergraduate degree in divinity."

Make up shit much?

Gore graduated from Harvard with a Bachelor of Arts degree in government cum laude on June 12, 1969.

Gore attended Vanderbilt Divinity School on a yearlong Rockefeller Foundation scholarship for people planning secular careers; he had never intended to become a minister ... Eventually, however, Gore "took away no degrees, deciding abruptly in 1976 to run for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives"

en.wikipedia.org

Fucking morons.

And N=8 if any of you idiots noticed.

So 1/sqrt(N) = 0.3535533905932738


Excuse me from interrupting your liberal bashing party but the guy is not even a scientist, has no qualifications to determine the validity of global warming claims...he's an economist. He presented no new information and is obviously just someone who wants to express his opinion though it isn't based on science.
I wonder how good of an economist he is.

#4 | Posted by danni at 2009


I was wondering how long it would take for a lib to come up with these "TALKING POINTS" from a biased so called news network.
so why cant you think for yourself..why do you have to just parrot and repeat things you hear on some tv show....heh??
I heard these comments almost verbatim on tv

and of course I am sure that you see my little 'jab' and showing you this look into the mirror as this is the same shit that you and others throw at us...

and to my main point
look at how this poor guy is getting the 'joe the plumber' treatment
anytime now I expect the staterun media to tell us his income tax status and that he had an affair or he whipped his children.
ANYTHING to discredit someone with news like this about the 'annoited' one...

GISS is the outlier.

HadCRUT, RSS, UAH slopes are negative. GISS has diverged considerably of late.

#34 | Posted by EvanJones at 2009-06-30 10:17 AM

I wonder what Zat thinks about this.

Gore graduated from Harvard with a Bachelor of Arts degree in government cum laude on June 12, 1969.

Gore attended Vanderbilt Divinity School on a yearlong Rockefeller Foundation scholarship for people planning secular careers; he had never intended to become a minister ... Eventually, however, Gore "took away no degrees, deciding abruptly in 1976 to run for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives"

Oh, well in that case...his point still stands.

So for the statist who is for gov't control of everything--

Consensus trumps science!


And here is Gore in the military fixing his gun.


www.theodoresworld.net

Iraqi - bloodletting through leeches worked well for the time.

but seriously - i am all for an open debate on the issue, but it seems to me that the large majority of scientists believe human impact climate change exists. Most of the people who are doubtful of it tend to take the odd piece of evidence that could suggest it is not happening, if taken in isolation, and then go on to talk about how having economic development is critical.
Setting aside the issue what if anything we can or should do about it (there's a debate for you)... I think the vast consensus is that it is happening.

TRENDING - does not mean every year will be hotter until we boil, and if it is not then there is no global warming.

Even if he were a scientist and has credibility, it is clear that his scientific opinion is in the minority - If the vast majority of scientists, in and out of the EPA, interpret the findings differently, why should this guy's opinion be taken as gospel and that of the others be construed as a muzzle conspiracy.

I am not so sure about that.

There was a petition signed by 1200 scientists supporting CO2/AGW theory.

But then there's that skeptic petition signed by 31,000+ scientists (very few bogus sigs., mostly by provocateurs from the other side).

But, regardless, numbers are not the deciding factor unless those numbers are are data, not scientists.

And no one has said Carlin's word should be taken as gospel, least of all, himself. He merely brought up some considerations, some clearly valid, some more doubtful, that he said needed to be addressed (such as. but not limited to, the huge increase in polar bear population in the last 30 years). They were not considered, and he was reassigned.

This should not be a liberal vs. conservative thing. (Esp. as I am a liberal atheist.) It should be a scientific question decided on the merits of the case, with complete openness of data and method (which last puts GISS, HadCRUT, and the IPCC out of court, right there).

There must also be and continual, ongoing input from all sides. Unlike many scientific endeavors, it's a wide-open field.

He never purported to speak authoritatively on anything. His task was to assemble data. And when it looked like that data presented questions that the global warming freaks didn't want to answer, they told him to stop.

According to the article linked above and others I was able to find, Carlin was not tasked with this report but did it himself and approached people above him with it. So yes, if you're going to write and attempt to submit an unsolicited report, you'd better be able to speak authoritatively on the subject or else they'll go with the authorities.

Of course, if you can attack the guy's qualifications to do something he never tried to do, that's easier than facing reality.

I'm sorry, but writing a report and submitting it with the expectation that it'll be considered on the same plane as reports written by groups containing known experts, yeah he is attempting to speak authoritatively.

And no, I'm not trying to discredit him by pointing out his qualifications or lack thereof. Pointing it out is a valid point to raise as analysis outside of one's realm of expertise must be taken with a grain of salt.

Kinda amusing how the libbies will swallow whatever Al Gore gives them vis a vis climate change and environmentalism, when his training is an undergraduate degree in divinity.

It's funny how right wind idiots like you automatically squawk "AL GORE AL GORE" whenever this topic comes up. It couldn't possibly be due to the hundreds of scientists who agree the earth is warming and that human activities may be having an impact.

And here is Gore in the military fixing his gun.

www.theodoresworld.net

#43 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-06-30 12:51 PM

Is that for real?

Actually, a degree in physics would be valuable at NASA perhaps, not so much in evaluating data connected to global warming.

#28 | Posted by danni at 2009-06-30 08:48 AM |

Yeah, that is the job of a political appointee.

According to the article linked above and others I was able to find, Carlin was not tasked with this report but did it himself and approached people above him with it. So yes, if you're going to write and attempt to submit an unsolicited report, you'd better be able to speak authoritatively on the subject or else they'll go with the authorities.

Well, according to Carlin, he had never (for decades) been specifically tasked with much of anything, until he was recently reassigned to scut-work.

And it was at least indirectly solicited. The EPA passed around their assessment and asked for feedback. (Not that they were expecting any.) Carlin provided. Those he cited are definitely authoritative. The points, correct or incorrect, needed to be addressed.

It couldn't possibly be due to the hundreds of scientists who agree the earth is warming and that human activities may be having an impact.

I would agree. But I think the impact is not tremendously profound and has more to do with anthropogenic but non-CO2 causes such as land use and Arctic soot ("dirty snow"). Those causes might well be an underlying driver and would cost less than 1% of the cost of curbing CO2 to solve.

And there are hundreds (if not tens of thousands) who beg to disagree on the narrow issue of CO2. They are increasing in number. Regardless of the "level", the "trend" is toward skepticism, mainly because the data is not currently behaving in accordance with the expectations of IPCC or GISS models.

Bear in mind that very few dispute that the planet warmed ~ 0.7C since 1900 (and has warmed by that amount since the pit of the Little Ice Age, around 300 years back, for that matter).

Although I seriously question NOAA adjustment procedure . . . Raw USHCN1 data shows an average of +0.14C/century per station. With TOBS adjustment, it's +0.31C. With the very highly controversial FILNET+SHAP adjustment, it's +0.59C. Somehow, the final number winds up at +0.72C. This is for the US, but it closely reflects the global GHCN numbers.

What is in dispute is the IPCC contention that the 21st century will see an average of +3.5C warming, which would be around a +0.4C trend per decade. All four parts of the forcing equation appear to have been exaggerated.

Most important, the positive feedback from water vapor has not increased relative humidity in the upper troposphere or stratosphere, but has instead increased low level cloud cover, which has increased albedo(recently demonstrated by the AQUA satellite) Which means it is a negative feedback, not positive. And if that is true, the whole IPCC thesis is falsified.

And excess heat does not appear to be sinking into the ocean. Since reliable measurement (the ARGOS buoys), the ocean temperature trend is quite flat, even slightly negative.

If warming continues at the same rate as last century, the effects will be positive and will result in a considerable increase in biomass, esp. in the rain forests.

In any case, there is no emergency. therefore, careful deliberation and evaluation (in the true liberal tradition) is in order. Not to mention a cost-benefits assessment.

Open data, open source, and independent (as opposed merely to peer) review is overwhelmingly important.

The AGW skeptics and the AGW advocates need to get their heads together on this and find out what the heck is actually going on with this highly complex, mostly unexplored scientific field.

HERE is the Change We Can Believe In!

blog.tommcclintock.com

It's funny how right wind idiots like you automatically squawk "AL GORE AL GORE" whenever this topic comes up. It couldn't possibly be due to the hundreds of scientists who agree the earth is warming and that human activities may be having an impact.

#47 | Posted by jpw
* * * *

It's "hundreds" now? And human activities "may be having an impact"?

LMAO. Maybe before shutting down our manufacturing base and shipping it down to Mexico and India, it might do to find out, definitively, whether or not global warming, if it exists at all, is man made.

Just an idea. Until then, lead the way, and park your car.

Just an idea. Until then, lead the way, and park your car.

you forgot to add "and shut your mouth"

LMAO. Maybe before shutting down our manufacturing base and shipping it down to Mexico and India, it might do to find out, definitively, whether or not global warming, if it exists at all, is man made.

what does that have to do with anything. The government will provide jobs under Obama's stimulator plan.

LMAO. Maybe before shutting down our manufacturing base and shipping it down to Mexico and India, it might do to find out, definitively, whether or not global warming, if it exists at all, is man made.

I've never supported those sorts of measures.

And speaking of LMAO-"whether or not global warming, if it exists at all...".

Fuck man. There's no denying the average global temperature has in fact risen. What the cause or causes are is what's up for debate, a debate many are interested in without giving a flying fuck what Al Gore says. Get a new talking point.

you forgot to add "and shut your mouth"

Feel free, I'm sure no one would care.

What the cause or causes are is what's up for debate, a debate many are interested in without giving a flying fuck what Al Gore says.

I agree. Unfortunately I can't think of very many lefties who agree with us on this. They believe the debate is OVER and any suggestion that there still needs to be debate is regarded as being a denier.

you forgot to add "and shut your mouth"


Feel free, I'm sure no one would care.

Just kidding. I was just making a Co2 reference.

"There's no denying the average global temperature has in fact risen."

Depends on your point of reference.


"The collapse of the "consensus" has been driven by reality. The inconvenient truth is that the earth's temperatures have flat-lined since 2001, despite growing concentrations of C02. Peer-reviewed research has debunked doomsday scenarios about the polar ice caps, hurricanes, malaria, extinctions, rising oceans. A global financial crisis has politicians taking a harder look at the science that would require them to hamstring their economies to rein in carbon."

online.wsj.com

More....

"It is now more than 200 years since the great astronomer William Herschel observed a correlation between wheat prices and sunspots. When the latter were few in number, he noted, the climate turned colder and drier, crop yields fell and wheat prices rose. In the past two years, sunspot activity has dropped to its lowest point for a century. One of our biggest worries is that our politicians are so fixated on the idea that CO2 is causing global warming that most of them haven't noticed that the problem may be that the world is not warming but cooling, with all the implications that has for whether we get enough to eat."

www.telegraph.co.uk

In short....THERE IS denying that average temps have beem rising as of late....especially due to mans' activity.

They believe the debate is OVER and any suggestion that there still needs to be debate is regarded as being a denier.

My views used to be pretty cut and dried until I sat down and had a few hours long discussion about it with a good buddy who's a grad student in atmospheric science.

It was very interesting and the most important thing I learned is that the media reporting barely scratches the surface as to how complex this topic really is.


Just kidding. I was just making a Co2 reference.

Yeah, I was a bit slow and didn't get that until after.

I thought you were being snarky. My apologies.

It's "hundreds" now? And human activities "may be having an impact"?

Well, tens of thousands of scientists. But there's another petition signed by around 700 of those with specific expertise in climate-related studies (which is a fairly broad category). So you can take your pick. I don't take much stock in such things other than to note that there is no consensus. But any consensus (on either side) crumbles when falsifying new data and/or becomes available or new discoveries occur.

And certainly humans may be having an impact. The question is how much of an impact and whether it is CO2-related or not. If it is not CO2, then limiting CO2 may be very damaging because the intense expense cripples other efforts, to say nothing of the effect of the development of poor countries (and resulting cost in human life).

It becomes a matter of problem and cost-assessment, which is the liberal way (or at least used to be).

Al Gore is not at issue, here. he is so far out on the edge that theoretically, everything in Incovenient Truth could be false and IPCC CO2-based AGW theory still be true. His arguments have been addressed and nearly completely refuted and he is not to be taken seriously.

The IPCC, however, is to be taken seriously. While I disagree with its conclusions and disapprove of its opaqueness, I would never ignore it. As the EPA needed to account for the arguments of skeptics, so also do skeptics need to account for the arguments of the IPCC.

My views used to be pretty cut and dried until I sat down and had a few hours long discussion about it with a good buddy who's a grad student in atmospheric science.

It was very interesting and the most important thing I learned is that the media reporting barely scratches the surface as to how complex this topic really is.

Well said. It is an ongoing quest. I am sure there are a lot of answers not far down the pike that are going to come as a surprise to both of us.

"There's a lot of loose talk going around about splitting the atom." #B^1

Meanwhile, it would be beneficial for both sides to pool their resources and above all reveal all data, methods, code, operating manuals, etc., etc. It's an important scientific and policy question with a lot at stake, so the usual (all too human) alchemetic instincts won't do. Scientific method must be the pathway, and that applies to the EPA as much as anyone else.

If you want the view of the EPA ruling of Dr. John Christy, an IPCC team member (and one of the world's leading experts on climate), see this.

icecap.us

He is also in charge of one of the four main global temperature metrics (UAH).

Let me try again.

icecap.us">icecap.us

You'll have to cut/past the link

The link is not coming through.

http://icecap.us

/images/uploads/
EPA_ChristyJR_Response_2.pdf

Paste this all together as one line.

Mr. Evanjones, bravo and welcome to The Druge Retort.

Crisis

It is an ongoing quest. I am sure there are a lot of answers not far down the pike that are going to come as a surprise to both of us.

I would be disappointed if it didn't happen that way.

That's the annoying thing to me about much of this debate-most everyone on both sides of the debate act as if our knowledge set is complete, when in actuality we're learning as we go.

Meanwhile, it would be beneficial for both sides to pool their resources and above all reveal all data, methods, code, operating manuals, etc., etc. It's an important scientific and policy question with a lot at stake, so the usual (all too human) alchemetic instincts won't do. Scientific method must be the pathway, and that applies to the EPA as much as anyone else.

Unfortunately this seems unlikely. Both sides are pot committed to their POV and are unlikely to concede a point to the other side.

Well, there may truth on both sides. The CO2 signature may be greater than I think and other manmade effects and/or natural forcings may be greater than the CO2-AGW side suspects.

New data pours in (though disputes will continue concerning "adjustments"). Eventually it is the data that will be the determining factor.

Scientific method is there to protect the scientists (all of us, really) from ourselves.

You're right, of course, that there is a severe rift and hard feelings on both sides, which is why independent review has become as important (or even moreso) as peer review, though both remain necessary. The internet makes independent review far more, well, accessible, for lack of a better word.

The science is tied up with very expensive policy and, naturally, this is divisive. My position is that regardless of the eventual determinations, there is not imminent crisis and we have some breathing room to examine and discover without acting precipitously. (With the recent rather sharp downturn in temperatures, one doesn't hear the term "tipping point" as much as one did, say, three years ago.)

Carlin's not a physicist. He has an undergraduate degree in physics, but he's an economist for the EPA who has been conducting climate change studies as a labor of love, none of which have been subjected to peer review:

tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo
.com

Why should his report be taken seriously inside or outside of the EPA, given his lack of credentials and the lack of academic scrutiny to his findings?

Why should his report be taken seriously inside or outside of the EPA, given his lack of credentials and the lack of academic scrutiny to his findings?

For the same reason that we're embarking on a trillion dollar cap-and-tax bill largely on the rantings of a gentleman who possesses fewer credentials than Carlin.

What's good for the Dubya should be what's good for the Obama. Take his data and scrutinize it, conclude it's faulty and then move forward. Don't attack the messenger...unless you lack the footing for true debate and attacking the messenger is the last resort.

but he's an economist for the EPA who has been conducting climate change studies as a labor of love, none of which have been subjected to peer review:

Furthermore, this guy is conducting studies as a labor of love...therefore, he is not an individual with one eye firmly locked on maintaining his funding and ensuring his job security, by tailoring his results to ensure his employment.

He's a hobbyiest, Iraqi. It would be insane to let our climate change policy be driven by tinkerers who have never subjected their work to peer review.

Furthermore, this guy is conducting studies as a labor of love...therefore, he is not an individual with one eye firmly locked on maintaining his funding and ensuring his job security, by tailoring his results to ensure his employment.

Are you daft? How did his results get in the media?

EPA blocks own report? So much for labor of love I would say.

He's a hobbyiest, Iraqi. It would be insane to let our climate change policy be driven by tinkerers who have never subjected their work to peer review.

I never suggested that the policies be driven by tinkerers. However, the guy had drawn conclusions based on the EPA's data. The answer then is to review his data, find the analysis dubious and then discard it. The answer isn't to ignore the data because it doesn't fit the mission statement. This will only open the door for criticism...especially when a trillion dollar taxation is on the horizon.

The answer isn't to ignore the data because it doesn't fit the mission statement.

If he wasn't assigned to produce the data, I don't see why the EPA should give it any consideration beyond the acknowledgment that they received his information. The idea that they were trying to hide the "truth" of his findings was absurd. He's not qualified to do the work he was doing. How much time should climate scientists spend evaluating the work of laymen?

He's not qualified to do the work he was doing. How much time should climate scientists spend evaluating the work of laymen?

You are right of course. Scientist should always ignore laymen whether they be an "economist" with a physics degree, or a simple patent clerk. How could anyone possibly take a layman seriously on science?

#73 | Posted by rcade

Thanks for the laugh.

You obviously believe this "global warming" crap hook, line and sinker. I am sure if your messiah said the world was flat and had scientists say the same you would believe it.

SUCKER

#72 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

Pinch me...... I actually agree with you

BRAVO

therefore, he is not an individual with one eye firmly locked on maintaining his funding and ensuring his job security, by tailoring his results to ensure his employment.

I'm so sick and tired of ignorant lay people throwing this out there as if it is in any way an accurate reflection of how science works. You can't "tailor" results. You do and you get your ass handed to you for scientific misconduct because the guy across the hall competing with you is going to make damn sure your results are legit.

Scientist should always ignore laymen whether they be an "economist" with a physics degree

Without any real experience in climate science. Your statement is an excellent piece of evidence for why lay people should be largely ignored when it comes to real science-you think having a degree in some science makes him qualified to speak about any science. That's not the way it works, buddy. Not even close.

How could anyone possibly take a layman seriously on science?

Often times one can't.

A great example is many who think being an engineer qualifies a person to assess the validity of evolution.

#75 | Posted by chickenrancher at 2009-07-01 09:02 PM | Reply | Flag: one of the 23%

#78 | Posted by Zatoichi

one of the 23% who do not follow blindly.

I just saw that post, like you could........

To the people who want the EPA to take this guy seriously: Why stop there? Why not look at every amateur climatologist with a B.S. degree and a web site?

It gets really old to watch Republicans denigrate science. Our modern civilization is built on the rigorous application of expert science, which is propagated through peer-reviewed journals. You rely on it every time you go to the doctor, fly a plane, or sit in front of this box. Maybe it's a good idea to listen to the expert scientists on climate change over the dilettantes.

It gets really old to watch Republicans denigrate science

He worked for the EPA for many years, and because he doesn't agree with YOU, you throw him under the bus?

Nice Rcade. Himmler, would have had you up there in the ranks.

Gentlemen, please!

This is not, not, not an assault on peer review. It is an appeal to look at the most recent peer reviewed work from both sides of the argument.

The EPA is not under criticism for being "wrong". It is under criticism for willful failure to evaluate recent peer-reviewed works--and data.

Bear in mind that Mr. Carlin did not do the science in his report. What he did was cite a number of recent peer-reviewed works (some of which I believe to be right, some wrong).

This is not about anti-science Republicans vs. pro-science Democrats. It is about the importance of evaluating of peer-reviewed work by prominent scientists from both sides of the argument.

Anything less is not only unscientific, it is also contrary to the principles of liberalism. I would hope both sides of the debate would agree on that.

This is not about anti-science Republicans vs. pro-science Democrats. It is about the importance of evaluating of peer-reviewed work by prominent scientists from both sides of the argument.

And you will not see that LOGICAL argument anywhere. This is ALL about an agenda the left has for grabbing control based on the faux global warming debate. Wake the hell up people!!!


Hold on.....there is a knock at my door.

"Hold on.....there is a knock at my door."

#84 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-07-01 11:40 PM | Reply | Flag: BATFE

BATFE - Google doesn't explain. Maybe you can?

Maybe you can?

Maybe he was asking if the brown dog was growling at the back door?

I have a brown dog, but he isn't trained to kill liberals yet. He needs a smell.

What do liberals smell like? Fear? CutBait? Worms? Dead bluegil? Pussy!!!

He worked for the EPA for many years, and because he doesn't agree with YOU, you throw him under the bus?

What part of "he didn't conduct peer-reviewed science" are you not getting here? The anti-science Republicans I talked about in my comment were some of the people here and Sen. Inhofe, who said of this guy "He came out with the truth. They don't want the truth at the EPA." His comment shows unbelievable ignorance of how science operates.

Let me make this clear, global warming morons are more laughable then they are dangerous.

The tooth fairy is more reality based then the retarded Gorehog fantasy. (one that has garnered gorehog more then $100 million)

If you believe in global warming, you are a complete idiot, worthy only of snearing contempt.

The tooth fairy is more reality based then the retarded Gorehog fantasy. (one that has garnered gorehog more then $100 million)

The fact that you default to Al Gore references indicates you're a bigger idiot than those you denigrate.

If you believe in global warming, you are a complete idiot, worthy only of snearing contempt.

If you're a scientifically illiterate fucktard who makes broad statements in black and white you're a complete idiot, worthy only of snearing contempt.

Seriously, though. Most people who have strong opinions on this topic know the least. Evanjones has been by far the most articulate and knowledgeable on the topic as well as the least offensive.

JPW: Sometimes a layman can be fairly knowledgeable about a subject in which he does not hold a degree.

For example, I have a lowly MA in History (from Columbia, Jim Hansen's alma mater).

Yet I have personally surveyed over 200 USHCN weather stations either by ground-level photography or using satellite resources and conducting curator interviews. I have evaluated the observations of over 900 out of the "magic 1221" weather stations of the USHCN.

I know most of them by "name"; they're my little MMTS brothers and CRS sisters. (Okay, so I don't get along so well with the ASOS side of the family, but you can't chose your relatives.) I see the durn things in my sleep.

I know (far) more about the specific microsite conditions of US surface stations than the top climatologists of either NASA or NOAA.

If, for example, you wanted a site assessment of these stations, you'd get far more accurate information from "unqualified" me than from any PhD on the planet.

So please don't be too quick to dismiss the layman. Sometimes he is an "informed" layman.

Jpw, I have no idea who you are and you certainly have no idea who I am.

You have eagerly raised your hand and declared yourself a moron.

Congrats!

My statement of fact stands.

I pity your weak mind and laugh at your false belief system.


Global warming is a hard left politcal cause, a false reality created by Gorehog to make himself relevant and wealthy.

'Global warming' is more about the stupidity of the masses then anything else, it is the aquisition of funds by left leaning causes, using backwards science and faulty data.

The global warming morons use completely false data to prop up their tripe, hoping no one knows better.

I challenge anyone to dispute that with 'fact'.

Hahahahha Rex you came back. I just got verizon hispeed today. This shit is amazing.

So please don't be too quick to dismiss the layman. Sometimes he is an "informed" layman.

When it is clear said layman IS knowledgeable, they tend to not be dismissed.

The problem tends to be when laymen think they are "informed" and therefore get pissed when they're told they're not.

JPW: Thank you for your kind words. I do have strong opinions on this topic. But I also realize that any part of my arguments could ultimately be proven incorrect. Science is nothing without the concept of falsifiability. (And, I should add, open source.)

No more buffering on vids!!!!!!!!!!!

YO JA, just a quick check in to laugh at global warming morons.

Fucking clueless idiots.

Let's discuss the 'science'.

Jpw, I have no idea who you are and you certainly have no idea who I am.

You have eagerly raised your hand and declared yourself a moron.

Congrats!

My statement of fact stands.

I pity your weak mind and laugh at your false belief system.

First of all, take your own advice dipshit. I don't have a "belief system" and therefore, I don't have a "false belief system." However, if pigeonholing me makes you feel secure in your idiocy, be my guest.

Your statement is not "fact" and neither is that shit you posted afterwards. Global warming is not a political cause, period. Despite it being co-opted by parties on both sides of the aisle, it was and is based on real science. Whether or not it stands as we continue to look into it is a separate issue. However, in you black and white little world this isn't the case.

And again, lay off the Gore references. It only highlights your stupidity.

Fucking clueless idiots.

#99 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

I read a post the other night wondering where you've been Zeit

Hey Bruce, long time no see....

Hope things are going well for you man....

JPW: Thank you for your kind words. I do have strong opinions on this topic. But I also realize that any part of my arguments could ultimately be proven incorrect. Science is nothing without the concept of falsifiability. (And, I should add, open source.)

Anytime.

You express yourself as a scientist would-the answer given is the best available and there's a good chance that it won't be as good an answer in the near future. This is the way science works.

Where my strong opinions come out is when dipshits like RZeitgeist here spew their black and white, overly simplified garbage as if it's fucking gospel while they have little concept of how truly complicated it really is.

Maybe RZeit does have a better understanding than he's portraying, but when you come out swinging with Al Gore references, that's usually a good indication you're full of shit.

YO JA, just a quick check in to laugh at global warming morons.

Fucking clueless idiots.

#99 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Rex the earth is getting warmer. In 10,000 years it'll be like 1 degree warmer. I don't care though. By then I'll be chilling with Buddha for many thousand years.

Jpw, make your case son.

I would consider myself one of the most knowledgeable people on earth about the climate debate, and on the history of global weather patterns since the creation of the earth.

So, I would be interested to hear your facts concerning 'global warming'.

Jackass, when you are paying $100 more a month, to the Tooth Fairy, in your electric bill, tell me how real you think 'global warming' is.

Jpw, make your case son.

Given your statements above and this gem:

I would consider myself one of the most knowledgeable people on earth about the climate debate, and on the history of global weather patterns since the creation of the earth.

I'd like to hear your side first.

Unless of course you're just drunk and being a dick.

Where is Danforth??? He was calling you out last week Rex. Said you didn't have the wits to debate him.

Hahahahah, you've got nothing....

I make statements of fact, and that is, 'global warming is a left wing fantasy that is built on trash'.

You want to talk 'fact' with me, boy?

You are dismissed......

Fucking morons........

There is one bought every minute....

You are dismissed......

#110 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-07-02 01:38 AM | Reply | Flag:Big Mouth/No Facts/Runs Off

Hahahahah, you've got nothing....

As do you evidently.

I make statements of fact, and that is, 'global warming is a left wing fantasy that is built on trash'.

That is unsupported by everything I've read and discussions with a good friend who is a climate scientist. The fact that average global temperatures have gone up is not what's being debated, it's what the cause(s) are that is up for debate.

You want to talk 'fact' with me, boy?

You are dismissed......

Considering you're the one throwing around the word "fact" and yet have nothing but hollow condescending rhetoric to offer, I'd say I'm not the one in need of dismissing.

Fucking morons........

There is one bought every minute....

You remind me of those pussies at every frat party who'd start shit with everyone and do nothing but lunge at them as if you're going to actually be something other than a pussy, only to do nothing unless your buddies show up.

Currently, you're the moron.

You're pushing a fringe argument (that average global temps haven't risen) whilst claiming to be dealing in facts.

Only time will tell boys.

Try and do a little research on global weather patterns during the last 1 billion years in the mean while.

"Only time will tell boys.


Try and do a little research on global weather patterns during the last 1 billion years in the mean while.


#115 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-07-02 01:47 AM"

And you should do some research on basic spelling.
/meanwhile is one word genius.

You don't have to look far. Even the shittiest of sources will tell you what you need to know.

en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

Only time will tell boys.

Try and do a little research on global weather patterns during the last 1 billion years in the mean while.

Indeed only time will tell. I'm sure it'll turn out differently than most expect.

And the past 1 billion years don't really mean shit. Of course you'll find fluctuations in temperature over that time. No one is debating that.

However, humans have expanded and flourished during a particular climate condition and it is that relative standard the the "warming" is in reference to.

#92 | Posted by EvanJones

Why exactly are you chin deep in this?

Is it merely a hobby gone dramatically wrong or is it what you do for a living?

Just so you boys don't go hungry...

I want you to know..

I laugh at your foolishness, and snear at your stupidity and blind ignorance.

You are total fools, but as Americans, you have the right to be morons...

Good luck in the future with 'Global warming'....

I laugh at your foolishness, and snear at your stupidity and blind ignorance.

You are total fools, but as Americans, you have the right to be morons...

The feeling is mutual you fucking twat.

Nice to see you have nothing to say but shallow bullshit despite claiming to have the "facts" on your side.

Global warming has more to do with your great grand children than us.How the fuck can you drive down the slow rush hour traffic and see thousands of cars who have ten thousands of gallons
of gas in them and think we don't effect the enviroment.

And then people on this website have the gall to talk about god and how this planet was all given to people.

god"thanks for nothing"

Our purpose on this earth is to destroy it.....

To push our offspring into space and to conquer other worlds...

Earth is our jumping off spot, not out our landing pad.......

Our purpose on this earth is to destroy it.....

To push our offspring into space and to conquer other worlds...

Earth is our jumping off spot, not out our landing pad.......

LOL you are fucking drunk.

Or high...

Either way, have a good night.

to conquer other worlds.

which one do you have in mind?

Doesn't get better than this

LOL you are fucking drunk.


Or high...

Even then,this is the place.

This planet is the best at providing drugs and alcohal,Go wherever you want,I'm staying here

Certainly, we as humans, will soon come to a point where we have to leave earth to populate other worlds.

That is just fact, not Gorehog fantasy.

We're not going anywhere,Sorry folks we're not that smart and we're not that special

Is it merely a hobby gone dramatically wrong or is it what you do for a living?

It started out as a hobby gone dramatically wrong. Then it became a good gig for a while and it really helped out. But the paying portion of the project is over. Wish I could have kept on doing it for a living, actually; I'm out of a job and work is very hard to find now.

The stations are very poorly sited, I'm afraid, and there appears to be an effect on the readings. That much I can tell you. You'll be hearing about the backlash before too long.

I've been poring through the raw data and analyzing it to see what those effects are. I am not at liberty to discuss it at the moment, but you'll be able to find out all about it if you keep your ear to the ground. (There will be a peer-reviewed paper; all data and methods will be open and will be able to be reproduced by independent reviewers.)

So please don't be too quick to dismiss the layman. Sometimes he is an "informed" layman.

I'm not arguing for all laymen to be dismissed. I'm arguing that when the EPA did not treat this layman the same way it treated its climate scientists, it did the right thing.

This guy can still champion his argument against global warming through channels both official and unofficial.

Its climate scientists were the ones who were supposed to do the treating. Carlin cited a number of peer-reviewed works, many more recent than IPCC AR4.

The EPA accepted the IPPC AR4 conclusions (which were not actually written by scientists) uncritically. It is also significant that the IPCC did not do any original research any more than Carlin did: it is an assembly of works much the same (but on a larger scale) than Carlin's.

For that matter, a number of those who were contributors to and reviewers of the IPCC in its various incarnations (such as Christy, Landsea, Spencer, Moerner, even Monckton) disagree strongly with IPCC conclusions. (Before one goes bashing on Monckton, whom I admit is provocative, please consider that he was a member of the IPCC team, has his AR4 Nobel Prize pin, and his review substantially altered AR4 conclusions on lea level.)

The EPA needed to look at the peer-reviewed papers cited in Carlin's report, a number of which were authored by IPCC scientists. I.e., not Carlin's work, but the peer-reviewed IPCC experts who made many of the arguments cited in Carlin's document.

If they were determined to be wrong, after all, they would not have been "harmful" to the EPA determination. But that determination needed (needs) to be made.

Global warming has more to do with your great grand children than us.

That assumes that 21st century global temperature will rise around five times that of the 20th. However, recent discoveries (especially those regarding CO2 forcing feedbacks) strongly indicate that this will not be the case.

Thank you.

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