I know the problem here is that they combine their sewage and rainwater in one pipe, so when there's too much rain, everything gets dumped into the lake.

My question is, why is it okay for government to pollute? If a private business dumped 1% of what they put into the lake during one rainstorm, they'd be fined and probably have their license suspended.

My question is, what genius group of civil engineers designed this "deep tunnel wastewater storage system" that flushes raw sewage into the lake when it rains.

And Summerfest starts this Thursday at the Lake front. The smell of creme puffs, brats and shit. A great place on a great lake.

My question is, why is it okay for government to pollute?

It is not. But a lot of these old systems would require such a vast overhaul to seperate the two it would cost a massive amount of money.

Are you offering to pay for it?

The smell of creme puffs, brats and shit.

Reminds of some apartment buildings in NYC.

probably have their license suspended.

Well you better get busy on that injuction against the sky to stop raining.

It is not. But a lot of these old systems would require such a vast overhaul to seperate the two it would cost a massive amount of money.

Are you offering to pay for it?

#4 | Posted by 726

We are pissing away a huge chunk of Stimulus money on Light Rail. I think it might have been a better idea to use the money to seperate at least some of the system.

My question is, what genius group of civil engineers designed this "deep tunnel wastewater storage system" that flushes raw sewage into the lake when it rains.

Most cities don't have the treatment capacity to deal with the impact on a heavy rainfall on combined sewers and street drains. They were the cheap way to build back in the days before them eco-terrorists started pointing out swimming in, or drinking your own crap was silly. And remember, the treatment plants were build in the 40s and 50s but rarely resized to take into account urban growth. More population+more paved surface area for run-off=raw sewage into the lake or river to avoid wiping out the treatment facility.
Detroit is spending a kazillion bucks to upgrade their waste water treatment facility and splitting the sewage/runoff water to deal with this issue.

"It is not. But a lot of these old systems would require such a vast overhaul to seperate the two it would cost a massive amount of money. Are you offering to pay for it?"

The deep tunnel is a fairly recent renovation that cost the city and county billions of dollars. They could have separated the lines when they built the deep tunnel in the first place. Notwithstanding your uninformed comment, stimulus funds could have been used for that project, and have the added benefit of preventing billions of gallons of sewage from going into the lake.

726's comment also ignores the fact that no matter the cost, private businesses are required to meet certain standards that government simply is not held to.

MMSD called last weekends rain the "100 year storm".
The fucking problem is we have about 3-4 of those a year.

think it might have been a better idea to use the money to seperate at least some of the system.

I don't disagree with you, but what good is seperating just some gonna do? That is like saying you are only "a little bit pregnant".

726's comment also ignores the fact that no matter the cost, private businesses are required to meet certain standards that government simply is not held to.

I have made no such arguement. I only said that it will cost hundreds of millions if not billions to make it in compliance. The problem is that no one wants to pay for it.

And if you closely examine my comments I even said it is not right. I do believe that was the first thing I said.

I don't disagree with you, but what good is seperating just some gonna do? That is like saying you are only "a little bit pregnant".

Posted by 726

The deep tunnel system's capacity is 494 million gallons. It wouldn't be that hard to divert a large portion of the rain into the Milwaukee River that winds through the city.

"I have made no such arguement"

Nobody said you made any argument. My point was that your post makes excuses for government - "it is too expensive" - that businesses are not allowed to make.

My question is, why is it okay for government to pollute? If a private business dumped 1% of what they put into the lake during one rainstorm, they'd be fined and probably have their license suspended.

Posted by Joe

It's called the GOLDEN RULE, those who have the gold make the rule.

I do some work within the waste water industry.. I don't know of a single large city that isn't working to address this.

A lot of people don't know that rainwater runs into sewage treatment plants, which are essentially a series of settling ponds, that work only when the flow through them is at design levels. Increase the flow, and the outflow is no longer clean.. and that's the problem.

There's two competing issues here in most cities.. some groups don't want rain runoff flowing directly into rivers and lakes because it might contain pollutants, and the other issue is the aforementioned problem of too much flow into the treatment plants.

It's not an easy problem to resolve. Overall, we do a better job here in the US than most of the world, but its not a perfect system. And the solutions are all expensive.

"726's comment also ignores the fact that no matter the cost, private businesses are required to meet certain standards that government simply is not held to."

Er...just who would be the most vocal opposition to the taxes required to fix the city system so that it wouldn't pollute...hmmm....oh, yeah, business.
Government will be happy to take the money and fix the system.

It is not. But a lot of these old systems would require such a vast overhaul to seperate the two it would cost a massive amount of money.

Are you offering to pay for it?

Sounds like a job for stimulus money. Wasn't the stimulus supposed to be used to repair infrastructure?

The Goreacle is always looking for alternative energy sources why not have Goverment Motors build a car that runs off shit. Oh no wait we have plenty of shit but what about those pesky emmision standards, better just step in shit for now...

Sounds like a job for stimulus money. Wasn't the stimulus supposed to be used to repair infrastructure?

#18 | Posted by Axiom

Not in Wisconsin. Our Govenor plans to spend most of the money in Italy to buy a train.

#17 | Posted by danni

You can always count on Danni to defend government and trash the private sector.

No one would ever want more taxes thrown at them to pay for this stuff, yet we (I mean us) are making this mess by sh!tting so much. The old systems can't handle the influx of the people moving to cities nowadays. It's nobody else's fault but our own...and all we do is complain. The City by no means wants this to happen. But with already struggling to pay for stuff now...where is the money going to come from for this?

It requires a massive amount of money to build a new system, and almost as much just to pay the engineers to design it. Then it costs the city the time for millions of complaints from citizens for shut down roads while construction is underway...when they are the ones that complained the system needed a revamp! They'll also get complaints before hand for the money going to a sewage system instead of schools or health care....blah blah blah...whatever. NOTHING comes without a penalty...I think that's what our country is in dire need of learning.

"Er...just who would be the most vocal opposition to the taxes required to fix the city system so that it wouldn't pollute...hmmm....oh, yeah, business."

Good one Danni. In the end, government can do what it wants, as was seen when they spent billions turning this system into the polluter that it is today.

"In the end, government can do what it wants, as was seen when they spent billions turning this system into the polluter that it is today."

Who is "government"???

"You can always count on Danni to defend government and trash the private sector."

Anyone can run for office Jeff, many of our politicians are former businessmen and women.
This "government" scapegoat is a cop out. Government will be whatever we make it, it isn't autonomous.

"Who is "government"???

In this case, it's the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District, a regional government agency with 11 commissioners that has taxing authority. Why do you ask?

Nice of you to miss the point that "business" wasn't able to stop them from spending billions to create the shoddy system they have today, which suggests they likewise would not be able to stop them from spending the money to fix it.

Anyone can run for office Jeff, many of our politicians are former businessmen and women.

that would include republican insurance executive.

LOL

This "government" scapegoat is a cop out. Government will be whatever we make it, it isn't autonomous.

#24 | Posted by danni

I thought you lived in Flordia, not Fantasy Island.

Not in Wisconsin. Our Govenor plans to spend most of the money in Italy to buy a train.

That's a totally awesome use of tax payer money. I'm sure your grand children will be thrilled!

I'm sure your grand children will be thrilled!

#28 | Posted by Axiom

I hope if I ever have any, they remove a few sections of rail for Grandpa.

"Nice of you to miss the point that "business" wasn't able to stop them from spending billions to create the shoddy system they have today, which suggests they likewise would not be able to stop them from spending the money to fix it."

I don't know how things are there but here in Florida "business" has lobbyists, it supports candidates, and supplies candidates from its ranks.
Government is a refelection of the population that elects it, if you don't like your "government" nothing is stopping "business" from supporting new people. You are simply indulging in whining.

"I thought you lived in Flordia, not Fantasy Island."

I do live in Florida where we have some really bad government which is a perfect reflection of the population of Florida. Most people in America have the government they deserve.

Most people in America have the government they deserve.

#31 | Posted by danni

OK, I'll agree with you on that point. The problem here is that people pay little or no attention to what is going on in the State, and piss and moan after the fact. Our State is voting today on a 2 year budget with every tax they can think of being raised. I plan on buying Kimberly-Clark stock. Tissue sales will be through the roof.

Since Katrina was Bush's fault I would assume we can pin this on Obama?????

"You can always count on Danni to defend government and trash the private sector."

Only if the government is democrat.

"Only if the government is democrat."

I have no idea what party the majority of government in Milwaukee belongs to.

I have no idea what party the majority of government in Milwaukee belongs to.

#35 | Posted by danni

Democrap.

"Government is a refelection of the population that elects it, if you don't like your "government" nothing is stopping "business" from supporting new people. You are simply indulging in whining."

That's right Danni, if I want a new EPA that enforces its rules equally on government agencies who dump billions of gallons of sewage into the lake where I get my drinking water, all I have to do is elect someone else! Why didn't I think of that? You Floridians have it all figured out.

In answer to danni's question, I suspect that the same people that she expects to pay for her health care and the other benefits she believes are guaeanteed by the phrase "inalienable rights". Why not make the people that made the sewage pay for it? Tax sewer emissions across the board. If you can't pay, you lose your tap.

Most cities already assess sewer fees.

I am sure the EPA would be more than happy to impose fines to force the cities to clean up their outflow but I am also sure that the businesses and residents who would have to pay higher taxes to pay for the new system would object. This is a foolish argument, government is a reflection of the people who elect it, and the businesses who both lobby it and pay for the campaigns of the politicians. It is certainly not an autonomous entity operating as it sees fit. More than one has been thrown out and replaced.

I would assume we can pin this on Obama?????

#33 | Posted by fishpaw

Was he warned that this could happen and still did nothing?

Was he briefed as it was happening and did nothing about it too?

I guess you can try to pin it on him. Good luck with that.

So what's the big deal some governments put fluoride in the water, Milwaukee adds a little doo doo big deal, I'm sure they remove the really big chunks. All they need to do now is tell residents not to eat as much fiber and absolutely no corn on the cob...

a regional government agency with 11 commissioners

Surely as effective as the quasi government agencies here in NY. Political patronage jobs with no consequences for failure, multitude of perks and nice salaries for the politically well connected.

a regional government agency with 11 commissioners

Surely as effective as the quasi government agencies here in NY. Political patronage jobs with no consequences for failure, multitude of perks and nice salaries for the politically well connected.

#43 | Posted by 726

We call them "shitheads" for short.

" government is a reflection of the people who elect it, and the businesses who both lobby it and pay for the campaigns of the politicians"

I see. It's now the peoples' fault for the fact that city engineers designed a system that is a complete failure. It's the peoples' fault for electing politicians who implemented the system anyways (I'm sure they told citizens all about their stance on sewers prior to elections). It's the peoples' fault that government delegates authority to entities like MMSD and the EPA who have no elected leaders and face no consequences for their moronic decisions.

Anyone but the actual government agencies themselves, and the people who work for them. They are the polluters, but it's our fault. Just come out and say it Danni - you love government no matter what they do and will defend them at any cost.

I read about half the comments before I couldn't take it anymore. "THEY" are you and I. Get ready to open your pocketbook. I know what I am talking about on this topic to be sure. We are on our way to 3rd world Infrastructure.

Anyone watch "The Crumbling of America" on the History Channel this past week? Spectacular show. You should look for a repeat. In 2 hours they educated the lay people on what is going on in our nation's infrastructure. Something I have been all too aware of for over 20 years. This is straight out of it. They covered all the US infrastructure - Roads/Bridges, Water/Sewage, Levees/Damns, etc.

Folks this is nothing. And to be honest some of you are correct. It is 100% because it is a combined system - that is just the way most systems were built 100, 200, 300 years ago when nobody cared about pollution and the big cities were becoming big cities. How much are you willing to pay to fix them? Not to mention the inconvenience. Shoot there are still wooden sewage drains under parts of NYC. WOOD. When you get massive downpours the systems can't take it in a combined system, so yes some sewage mixed with massive amounts of rain water bypasses processing. They actually can get fined for it by at least the Federal government, maybe state too. But who is going to pay to entirely revamp this system or the one in the city you live in? Some cities are doing it and others will be soon and they should. It will just cost trillions of dollars to just revamp sewage systems in this country. Taxes and use fees will be going up - get ready.

You think this isn't any good, what about your drinking water? That's really scary - especially on the Coasts.

if I want a new EPA that enforces its rules equally on government agencies who dump billions of gallons of sewage into the lake where I get my drinking water, all I have to do is elect someone else!

Yup, and then lobby the hell out of them. If you're a big utility, you can lobby the President to de-regulate your emissions and pollute all you want. Like danni said, the EPA can only do as much as the politicians have the balls to let it do. Municipalities have been crying poverty when it comes to things like this (and try and get taxpayers to willingly ante up) for years, but seem to be able to afford a new stadium or arena when the jock-strap lobby comes a calling.

Apparently Danni believes the people of New Orleans are responsible for Katrina because they voted in the Dem's year after year, and they did nothing with the levies?

Oh almost forgot the best part - 6+ inches of rain in 2 hours had nothing to do with it. Some of you act like this was some normal rain...

6+ (SIX INCHES of Rain in 2 (TWO) hours!!!

I am sure some of you would have preferred the system backed up into everyone's homes. Think of how much would have been dumped if they had not done what they did do.

"Apparently Danni believes the people of New Orleans are responsible for Katrina because they voted in the Dem's year after year, and they did nothing with the levies?"

They would have to bare some of the blame but so too would the Army Corps of Engineers, Congress and the executive branch for ignoring the problem but in the end all of them are either elected or appointed by elected officials. This blame game where it is "government" that is responsible is just foolish and you know it.

6+ (SIX INCHES of Rain in 2 (TWO) hours!!!

I am sure some of you would have preferred the system backed up into everyone's homes. Think of how much would have been dumped if they had not done what they did do.

#49 | Posted by GalaxiePete

MMSD dumps overflow all the time. It's a fucked up design that isn't very old and it cost a fortune to build and maintain, courtesy of the Milwaukee Democrats.

"This blame game where it is "government" that is responsible is just foolish and you know it."

So, it's your premise that government is never responsible for calamity? Unless, of course, it's REPUBLICAN government...right?

"Only government can grant "license" to ignore consequences."

MMSD has dumped an estimated 6.4 billion gallons of sewage into Lake Michigan since the year 2000.

Quit picking on Danni's comment. She is 100% correct. Dem or Rebpub, Left/Center/Right. You elect the douche bags who have done and continue to do little or nothing about it. And yes you will whine when they raise your taxes to pay for it. This should have been started 40 years ago. Nobody wanted to pay for it then and nobody does now. It will take 40 years to accomplish it if we start today.

"Oh almost forgot the best part - 6+ inches of rain in 2 hours had nothing to do with it. Some of you act like this was some normal rain... "

It happens during every heavy rainstorm in the Milwaukee area.

"You elect the douche bags who have done and continue to do little or nothing about it."

When you allow people to vote who have absolutely NO idea of the issues, who admire a candidate based on hair style, rock star status or such, THIS is what you get. I would bet that a large percentage of those who voted in the last election can't tell you today who is the vice president. It's all in who has the best PR and HAS been for a long time now.

"It's all in who has the best PR and HAS been for a long time now."

Large corporations own the media and they tell the public what they want to for their own reasons.
If anyone says they should actually have to serve the public on our air waves you conservatives start screaming about censorship. You can't have it both ways. Either you want the media to actually educate the people or you want them to keep telling voters that taxing rich people is socialism. YOu want to fix problems like sewars, etc. it costs money.

You keep saying it costs money. Billions were spent on this system not too long ago and it continues to pollute after every rainstorm. "It costs money." We know that. They figured out a way to do it then. They can do the same now. What is your point?

YOu want to fix problems like sewars, etc. it costs money.

#57 | Posted by danni

Yes it does. And instead of Obama handing out blank checks to be pissed away, maybe he could have provided some oversight.

What did they do? Finally hose out the ghettos of Chicago and Milwaukee?

Let's see...a pile of money to fix the problem or cheap excuses that allow the desecration of some the planet's biggest bodies of fresh water...

This is a fucking crime.

Danni,

Yes it does cost money. But you keep assuming that there is only one place to get money (corporations). Like I said earlier, you want a clean environment. That costs money. Tax the people that caused the problem proportionally. The citizens want clean drinking water ans owes a duty to the rest of us to keepit clean. If the oil companies did it, you would demand their head on a pike and would make them pay. The citizens did it, Make them pay.

"Yes it does cost money. But you keep assuming that there is only one place to get money (corporations)."

Where did I say that??? Not that I think corporations do pay their fair of taxes but I didn't say that here. I wasn't saying where the taxes should come from just that "government" is an anonymous boogey man some use to blame things on.

"government" is an anonymous boogey man some use to blame things on."

It's not anonymous. We know who the agency is that dumps, and we know the agencies that allow the dumping to continue. They are appointed, not elected, and nobody we elect (including Obama) will appoint an EPA head who will change the policy that any government agency is allowed to get away with environmental murder.

Not that I think corporations do pay their fair of taxes - DUMMI

Silly DUMMI taxes are for consumers. Corporations pass taxes onto the consumer through higher costs. Have you ever met a "corporation"? Where did this "corporation" get it's money from?

What are you talking about Joe, EPA cites governmental bodies all the time.

"Silly DUMMI taxes are for consumers. Corporations pass taxes onto the consumer through higher costs."

Tax is computed after net profit dummy.

"What are you talking about Joe, EPA cites governmental bodies all the time."

Do they cite them for dumping billions of gallons of sewage into Lake Michigan? Even if they do, it's apparent that they haven't done enough to create an incentive to improve the system, which should be the job of the EPA if their goal is to reduce pollution.

Ahh, City of Milwaukee. How I loathe my local government.

I think you have to be a Milwaukeean to really get a handle on how corrupt and stupid the local government really is.

I work at a local media outlet, and we still have the brochures and the back stories from the Deep Pipe debacle. We have local officials on audio telling us how this would improve service, reduce dumping, put a chicken in every pot, save the whales, etc.

So the taxpayers paid for this amazing service. Like fools, hoping that THIS time they'd get it right (yay Miller Park!!).

So the first time there was dumping the citizens asked "why did you dump, we just paid exorbant amounts of cash for this system"? To which we were told it was the rain that was causing the problem. So they just had to dump. To which we asked "did you not plan for this"? They muttered soothing platitudes, hoping the peasants would put down their pitchforks.

But fear not! MMSD has a plan to make things work! We'll give everyone in the city X amount of time to disconnect their rain gutters from the sewage system, that'll fix it! And if you don't, we will.

So time passed, the gutters were disconnected, and they still dumped any time the rain was heavier than a fine mist.

And it continues to this day. I think the guys at JS bring it up every time to rub it in.

That's just one example. I can think of others.

How about the city filling in everyone's well so that they're forced to use city water. You don't think they're looking for a new revenue stream, do ya?

How about the illegal parking tickets handed out all over the city, 10 minutes after nightly parking restrictions go out of effect?

How about the redundant construction projects? An example of this would be when they tore the alley behind my house out, and charged all the owners for it. At a city council meeting, the outraged residents asked why this was happening. They were told it was to make plowing easy. So the city is going to start plowing our alleys? No. It's just that *if* someone were to plow it would be easier. Thanks and make your $8000 checks out to us.

In the 163-year history of the city, there has never been a year without snowfall. EVER. Yet for some reason every year the city gets caught with it's pants down when the first snow hits. And when the first BIG snow hits, you might as well shut the city down, because the city will forget how to plow. There will be 8 inches of snow in the roads, people will be trapped, the buses will get stuck. Yet the genius in charge can't figure out how to watch the weather and see reports of large storms headed in. All of that for a little overtime.

I could go on, but it'd be pointless. This city is crooked and incompetent. But Summerfest is on, der hey? I'm gonna go down der, have a few brewhahas, eat some sassages, hopefully duh wife won't trow up dis year, hey?

You are simply indulging in whining.

#30 | Posted by danni
SAID THE POT TO THE KETTLE

Every time I drive behind a public bus (especially school buses) I wonder why I am paying money to jump through hoops to smog check my vehicles. These things cause more pollution with one push of a pedal than I could in a year. The initial goal of clean air has been hijacked by government inefficiency, laziness, inability to properly fund, and special interests. In the end, the ordinary guy gets screwed out of his money, and the problems persist.

That being said, giving the people the right to sue the government would be disastrous. And making 20 layers of government accountability is frustrating to the purpose and practically stupid.

The best solution is to start actually caring about who your local officials are and what they do. If people cared half as much about holding local politicians accountable as they do about holding the president accountable for every word he says, then we'd be half way to a solution by now with incumbency rates plummeting.

And Danni, you can't seriously believe that companies don't pass higher tax costs on to consumers. That would be beyond naive.

My question is, what genius group of civil engineers designed this "deep tunnel wastewater storage system" that flushes raw sewage into the lake when it rains.

#2 | Posted by silver_ironist

Don't be so stupid!! The genius group was the politicians who hold the purse strings.

MMSD dumps overflow all the time. It's a fucked up design that isn't very old and it cost a fortune to build and maintain, courtesy of the Milwaukee Democrats.

#51 | Posted by wisgod at 2009-06-25 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes it is a fucked up design. They modified the existing system to improve it. Was anyone willing to pay for a complete overhaul? Hell no. It is still 100 times better then it was. I don't care who voted for it - maybe you don't get that. Bottom line is we all need to step up and take politics out of the equation. But that is the problem in itself. If you are willing to pay for it - your neighbor is not. It comes down to a matter of doing what is right and that is still subjective. A total redo of the system would involve tearing up every street in the city. Although there'd be new road, new sewage (probably water too - cheap since everything is tore up...) - who would be willing to deal with and pay for it?

"Silly DUMMI taxes are for consumers. Corporations pass taxes onto the consumer through higher costs."

Tax is computed after net profit dummy.

#67 | Posted by danni

And to keep their profit margins to the shareholders and bondholders--guess what they do Danni??

Ding ding ding!

They increase the fees and costs to the consumers!!

Ergo--if you increase the taxes, they increase their prices to maintain their profits!

A total redo of the system would involve tearing up every street in the city.
Posted by GalaxiePete

If you check my prior posts, I'm not advocating for total redo. Would more treatment processing Centers help? Would diverting some of the city sewers carrying rain water help? Would using some of the Federal Stimulus money to pay for these things help? Much like the National Health Care plan, you can make a problem better without having to throw the original system or plan out the window.

They just had a show on History Channel?

They went into detail about these sewar and storm drain pipes. HUGE problem in this country.

-------
And we have the same overload problems in San Diego. Every year they close the beaches for some pipe break or sewage runoff from Mexico that overloaded our system here.

We don't even need rain to have the beaches closed.

Yeah--we take the shit from Mexico in more ways than one.

"Was anyone willing to pay for a complete overhaul? Hell no."

Were you there? Was anyone willing to spend the billions they spent to bring the system to where it is today (a failure)? Probably not, but they did it anyways, and they can do it again. Stop pretending it's impossible. It isn't. And if any Milwaukee Democrats actually gave a shit about the environment, they'd push for an overhaul regardless of the political fallout.

"we take the shit from Mexico in more ways than one"

Acapulco Gold, Oaxacan tops, Guerrero sinsemilla ...

The Federal EPA should fine the shit out of Milwaukee each time this happens. Make the fine really high and see how quickly they change their tune in MN.

It is funny how something completely unaffordable becomes quite affordable once massive fines are introduced to the equation.

Either Milwaukee spends the money to fix the sewer or the feds fine them and spend the money from the fines on upgrading the sewer system.

It is ridiculous to let these spills to continue. They get larger and larger each year.

"And to keep their profit margins to the shareholders and bondholders--guess what they do Danni??

Ding ding ding!

They increase the fees and costs to the consumers!!"

Perhaps in an industry without competition Murphy but according to the capitalist system competition would prevent that from happening.
If there isn't any real competition then it's a monopoly and a whole different problem.

"And Danni, you can't seriously believe that companies don't pass higher tax costs on to consumers. That would be beyond naive."

Of course they pass on higher costs but taxes on profits aren't costs. Many companies purposely roll profits into new equipment, etc. just to avoid paying taxes on profits.

Make the fine really high and see how quickly they change their tune in MN.
Posted by Monstman

Wisconsin might even take notice.

"Many companies purposely roll profits into new equipment, etc. just to avoid paying taxes on profits."

Yeah, how dare they buy new equipment (providing income for salesmen, clerical staff, and factory workers who made the equipment)? They should have given the money to the IRS so Timmy Geithner could piss it away.

I think you're missing her point. The higher the marginal tax rate, the greater the incentive to re-invest.

Use your fantasy 100% tax rate as an example, if needed.

"The higher the marginal tax rate, the greater the incentive to re-invest."

I agree, and nothing in my post would suggest otherwise.

"I agree, and nothing in my post would suggest otherwise."

Well, except the dripping sarcasm.

Tax breaks for re-investment is good. Unless of course the market is contracting and re-investment is impossible due to the costs involved, and lines of credit are non-existent. You can't expand your way out of a demand problem. That's why some suggest lowering the marginal rate when times are bad...so companies can use the tax savings to avoid layoffs without having to go into debt trying to expand in rhythm with currently acceptable tax code provisions.

People would just keep complicating the tax code trying to "stimulate" the economy. But during bad times, it needs to be simpler. Adding layers and rigidity doesn't help.

When you allow people to vote who have absolutely NO idea of the issues, who admire a candidate based on hair style, rock star status or such, THIS is what you get. I would bet that a large percentage of those who voted in the last election can't tell you today who is the vice president. It's all in who has the best PR and HAS been for a long time now.

#56 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2009-06-25 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

You are 100% correct. However, I don't see the outrage at these elected officials. If the multitudes of PEOPLE became active in politics and not just bought and paid for politicians we would see a change. Look at Iran - that is political activism. Those people BELIEVE in something. Instead most of us just sit back and whine on forums and such and do not actively participate. I think corporate and special interest money should be banned from elections. Not to mention lobbyists need far tighter controls placed on them. Then politicians would have to listen to people.

The real problem is even though some people vote most don't care even if they get the energy up to vote. People are like a herd of cattle and really have a heard mentality for the most part. They sit there oblivious in the field until they are thinned from the herd and get rounded up and have their testicles removed or get the electrode. That's when they care - but it is too late then. Stupid cows... People are so easily deflected even when there is an outcry. A week or two it usually goes away, the press moves on.

Many companies purposely roll profits into new equipment, etc. just to avoid paying taxes on profits.

#81 | Posted by danni

There are times I have hope for you.

New equipment meens more productivity and that is how they keep the cost of goods down. Labor is usualy one of the most expensive parts of production. The only way it goes down is if you get rid of someone with a more productive machine. That is why all the open pit mines have gone to such large machines, less labor.

Every time I drive behind a public bus (especially school buses) I wonder why I am paying money to jump through hoops to smog check my vehicles. These things cause more pollution with one push of a pedal than I could in a year.

They all are required to pass a smog test too. Same as the smoke-belching transports. And particulate matter is only a component of the pollution cars and buses create.

Labor is usualy one of the most expensive parts of production. The only way it goes down is if you get rid of someone with a more productive machine.

Or a third world child or illegal mexican....

My question is, why is it okay for government to pollute? If a private business dumped 1% of what they put into the lake during one rainstorm, they'd be fined and probably have their license suspended.

#1 | Posted by JOE

Whom do you conservatives think the government is?
Would it make you feel better if we fined the government and revoked their license to operate public systems?
WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.

"Would it make you feel better if we fined the government and revoked their license to operate public systems?"

Nice strawman. As one person suggested above, the fines could be so large that it would create an incentive to spend money to improve the system instead. It won't matter how much money you've saved when millions of people can no longer get their water from that lake.

"Whom do you conservatives think the government is? WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT"

No we aren't. I am a person. The government is made up of other people - not me. I didn't choose the city of milwaukee's government because I don't live there. I didn't choose a federal government that allows a city to pollute lake michigan. Nobody chose MMSD because their commissioners are appointed, not elected. Claiming that this is somehow the peoples' fault for not electing the right people is nothing more than shifting blame from government agencies that shouldn't be polluting in the first place.

WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.

#91 | Posted by RastaCyborg

Then we must all be for Cap and Trade. You are one dumb bastard.

good one wis.

I live in a small community 60 miles to the north of Milwaukee. A quantity of radium was found in the city's well water, slight higher than the EPA recommended. The city was fined for non-compliance for two years, while we were in the process of constructing a $5 million facility to remove the radium. Our water bills were raised 52% to cover the costs. We didn't like the additional costs, but tests following the completion of the project show the radium level where it belongs.
Citizens will accept the burden when the problem is solved. The issue with Milwaukee is the money spent on the deep tunnel project that did absolutely nothing to prevent what happened this week.