utilizing the due process system that is in place and accepted by the school administration is sucking the life out of the country. Why not just throw them in jail for years with no charges? Why use due process at all, waste of time and money? the constitution doesn't mean anything.

"Countdown until DANNI defends the unions. 3....2....1........."

Big bad teacher's unions, but where is the outrage about police unions???

"Countdown until Danni defends the Unions..."

Sorry, Charlie. The Wunderkind of Wall Street and the billions they've looted from honest working people and will likely never have to return or be punished for stealing are the real villians in this country.

You want to bust a few unions, bust a few of those.

"Where is the outrage about police unions...?"

The outrage is forever selective. El Cid has definite tastes in regards to whom he allows to pick his pocket.

Big bad teacher's unions, but where is the outrage about police unions???

F them all. I am not selective in my distaste for a practice long past its usefullness. Wall Street - you play you pay my friend. Did they operate within the confines of the law?

"Did they operate within the confines of the law....?"

I've got an idea: Let's find out. One thing this country has never had a problem doing is building prisons.

"You play you pay..."

It was a game, was it? I've seen this snarky attitude projected by many on the Right. The implication is thieves are to be admired if they can get away with enough money.

My attitude? If you can hand out thirty years hard time for knocking over a convenience store then execution might be a reasonable punishment for not a few Masters of the Universe.

I have this thought about the predatory rich: they fear death more than most because corpses can't spend money.

Where is the outrage against the AMA??????

They are truely sucking the life out of America.

Oh Danni,

The selective outrage the right feels towards Unions is only directed at labor unions, anything that benefits management is okey dokey with them.

Labor is not allowed to have a voice, only management is allowed at the table.

It seems to me that fining a way to increase the number of days a week the hearing group works might just save some bucks, lots of big bucks. Why is this so damned difficult? The unions require their form of (mis)conduct for resolution of these cases. So resolve already and stop paying out $65,000,000.00 per year in doing nothing. Just do it!

The selective outrage the right feels towards Unions is only directed at labor unions, anything that benefits management is okey dokey with them.

#9 | POSTED BY 726

Indeed Bonus's for Wall Street is well, Contractual and not to be questioned!

having a four year college degree can get one a fairly year round substitute temporary job for $15 an hour in Minneapolis public schools system

There isn't ANY question that teacher's unions have hurt and continue to hurt education. Laying aside all of the ideologue arguments for and against unions.. the teachers union has hurt education, by every measurable standard.

Is the problem the union members, or what they allow the management of the union to do? Open question, but the terrible impact that teachers' unions have had on public education can't be argued.

There are unquestionably good, competent, and well meaning teachers getting slammed in a blanket condemnation of all teachers' union members. I wish they'd stand up and take a leadership role.

"Labor is not allowed to have a voice, only management is allowed at the table."

How do you get from a voice to "rubber rooms" ?

Having a voice is fine, but eventually this voice gets in the way of being productive, to the point of counter productive, which in many cases is where we find ourselves today.

Fucking Unions:

Health insurers have forced consumers to pay billions of dollars in medical bills that the insurers themselves should have paid, according to a report released today by the staff of the Senate Commerce Committee.

Amalgamated Corporate Looters and Pillagers, Local 666, no doubt.

the teachers union has hurt education, by every measurable standard.

Proof, please.

Finally, after all this time, El Cid posts something I agree with.

The problem with unions and wall street bankers and politicians and several other institutions is that they have been insulated from the law and the natural market forces.

They fail due to the complex fuckery they employ and then are bailed out, only to be corrupt another day.

Honest question -- how come the unions worked for decades, provided many middle class Americans decent benefits and retirement and now all of the sudden they are the devil's work.

This union bashing didn't start until the "free trade globalism" crap was being pushed by the corporate boys who wanted bigger profits for their CEO bonuses.

It also came about because the corporations INTENTIONALLY underfunded the union pensions and when 2006 rolled around and they had to make good on the money they owed their companies' pension plans all of the sudden it's the worker's fault for having a pension? How about the truth -- it's the fault of the companies who never contributed to their company pension plans until it was mandated by law (which I believe was around 2006).

Chrissy, you seem like you are under the impression that corporations and politicians and union employees always do what they are supposed to do.

Why would a company promise a pension and then not fund it? Greed. Why would a union employ methods that got the employees more pay and benefits than the market could bare? Greed. Why will politicians sell their souls? Greed.

The free globalism crap has always been goin on. Remember Columbus and Drake and Leif Erikson and Marco Polo? They weren't adventurers, they were merchants, finding new trading paths and partners.

Poor poor America, finally learning that they have only had a merchantile mentality all along and that cheap plastic imported shit will not save their empty souls. Even modern religion is about money. Why wouldn't greed be our greatest unspoken, unacknowledged sin?

Cidney railing against unions is a little like a guy burning down his own house. ANY gains in our nation's living standards since the industrial age began can be credited to unions. I know that bile and hatred virtually consume El Cidhead, but this is preposterous. herm

ANY gains in our nation's living standards since the industrial age began can be credited to unions.

That is true up to the '50s or even into the '60s. But by that time laws were being passed to ensure workers' rights that unions had previously ensured, unions were losing bargaining ability.

So what do they do? They ask for more, more, more (not necessarily a bad thing if you are a capitalist) But the demands began to be unstainable, especially after the globalization of the market place. It was then (now) that the unions began sucking the life out of the country.

Face it -- what reasonable requests can a union have that aren't already guaranteed by law or ensured by corporate competition, health insurance, e.g.?

ANY gains in our nation's living standards since the industrial age began can be credited to unions.

not all of it dipshit. many have gained for sure.

but to say "any" shows what a total dipshit you are.

From the article: "The department blames union rules."

The same rules "the department" signed. But they won't tell you that part.

The same rules "the department" signed. But they won't tell you that part

I don't know why you keep bringing up that erroneous argument, danforth. The union has the upper hand in a closed shop state since management has no choice but to hire union workers.

If management had the freedome to hire whomever they want, then yes, the "but management signed the contract, too" argument is valid.

Chrissy, you seem like you are under the impression that corporations and politicians and union employees always do what they are supposed to do.

I know. I even thought that way about family members and regular people too -- thinking they'd at least try to do what they're suppose to do. But I'm finding out lately I'm really either quite naive or stupid -- or probably both.

#21 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-24 10:51 PM | Reply | Flag: Like DANNI I spew the "lefts" mantra without thought - union good, management bad.

Unions had their time, just like you HERM. Now they need to move on - just like you HERM. I can see you defending the rubber room HERM - as you live in one.

"Now they need to move on...."

Less so than do the robber baron capitalists. Just one of those has to be more destructive than any ten of the worst unions.

Someone above had it right: money is the modern religion. It appears to be a jealous god.

but eventually this voice gets in the way of being productive

Baloney.

This union bashing didn't start until the "free trade globalism" crap was being pushed by the corporate boys who wanted bigger profits for their CEO bonuses.

Keep bashing Unions. That way wages can remain stagnant or decline, standard of living can be eroded due to inflation, more businesses will fail and the downward spiral of American businesses will come to fruition.

BTW, free trade is a myth promulgated by Corporate America to justify outsourcing labor and stealing good paying jobs so that the CEO's can justify their egregious salaries and benefits.

"In fact, the latest industry data show members of the UAW and the Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) are already more efficient and productive than their nonunion counterparts."

Tell me you aren't REALLY using something from from uaw.org to back you up. I'm just considering the fact that the nonunion automakers haven't required a bailout. Doesn't that prove they are more efficient and productive? Could it be that they don't have to pay for a union "Jobs Bank" program? If those union shops are so efficient and productive, why are they crashing, going bankrupt....and relying on the taxpayers to even keep them in business?

#30 | Posted by 726
Keep proping them up so that all manufacturing can be moved oversees. Every job has a value associated with it. Unions think their jobs are worth more than they really are. Not everyone can be a brain surgeon. Odds are that 95% of working folks could work on an assembly line - thereby dictating the worth of the position. You 726 along with the other union zealots try to artificially inflate the value of the position under the guise of "standard of living". Not everyone can make 100k/yr - "the world needs ditch diggers too" and most of those that choose such a position have gone in knowing their salary/wage. You and DANNI should get together and form a commune sometime and see how far equal wages across all job descriptions works out. Your understanding of socio-economics is infantile.

AND NOW AGAIN TODAY
TALK IN senate about taxing health care benefits

BUT NOT PEOPLE IN COLLECTIVE BARGAINING sITUATIONS

for you boys on the left

THATA UNIONS

while you are paying higher taxes on your benefits,..UAW WONT because they kiss the black ass a whole lot better than you do

Is ElCid an actual person, or just an amalgam of anti-labor, anti-woman, and anti-freedom talking points?

#35 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2009-06-25 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag: I can't respond to simple economic discussions so I deflect.

The middle class owes its existence to unions. America owes its greatness to unions. Without unions, Businesses have no incentive to pay decent wages.

To bitch about Teachers pay is the height of insanity. Teachers in this country are underpaid and under appreciated compared to other countries. The future of our country is dependent on well educated children. To teach them with the cheapest teachers available will cost us our future.

For the best possible future--reduce the size of the military by 50% and pay that money to the teachers. Get the best brains in the country teaching our children--not the cheapest we can get.

"I can't respond to simple economic discussions so I deflect."

Everyone knows that, Cid. No need to point out another of your innumerable faults.

BUT NOT PEOPLE IN COLLECTIVE BARGAINING sITUATIONS

#34 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-06-25 11:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

Sounds like an incentive to join a union, or form one.

Less than half the student of New York City will earn a high school diploma. Does that bode well for their future---and ours? Can we compete in the future with a drop out rate like that? Would better teachers help?

You betcha(wink).

Do you know why management gets paid more? Because they aren't as immediately replaceable. Unions protect unskilled laborers and allow them to make unreasonable demands because its complicated to replace an entire work force at once. Losing one manager or director is a HUGE blow to the creative talent of a company. A factory worker who wants to get paid more should think about pursuing an education that allows him to get a better job, not rising up with fellow unskilled laborers and using size to intimidate.

How can you say this? THe unions cost so much they drove our car companies into bankruptcy, because we can't compete with prices from non-unionized labor. I can't even believe things like this are being said.

THUTH

Management is easily replaceable. Take GM for instance--almost any worker off the line could have run that company better since the seventies. Instead of making big gas guzzlers--make more efficient cars like the Japanese were doing and kicking GMs ass. They didn't learn. Management was stupid. To think they can't be replace is incredibly naive. What do you think happens when they die?

Losing management is no great loss. The work force is what keeps a company making money, and the work force should share fairly in that wealth. Most managers are lazy assholes resting on their connections that got them the job.

"THe unions cost so much they drove our car companies into bankruptcy"

Bull. Give GM the Toyota pay scale and it's still a lousy business model. For years and years, management chose larger salaries and bonuses over fully funding the health & retirement programs. Instead, they decided they'd off-load that cost onto future cars. Well, the future is today, and the business decision by management was so wrong, all they can do now is blame the only group who actually lived up to their end of the bargain.

How can you say this? THe unions cost so much they drove our car companies into bankruptcy, because we can't compete with prices from non-unionized labor. I can't even believe things like this are being said.

#42 | Posted by thuth2 at 2009-06-25 01:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Japanese don't seem to be having any trouble paying their workers as much as union workers(because there are workers unions--the Japanese pay enough so the workers don't organize) and still make a decent profit.

Your "blame the unions for stupid management" scenario seems to have a basic flaw. Japanese management beats US management with the same workers and same pay.

American auto manufacturers outsourced their work to cheap foreign labor anyway--fuck them--they are foreign manufacturers now. Cars made in the United States by American workers are AMERICAN cars, even if the company owners are Japanese. If you want to buy American--buy a Honda.

#38 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2009-06-25 12:40 PM | Reply | Flag: I don't read english too well flag.

#33 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2009-06-25 11:43 AM | Reply | Flag

Spoken like someone walking on the tracks with his back to the approaching train and his Ipod cranked.

BUT NOT PEOPLE IN COLLECTIVE BARGAINING sITUATIONS

#34 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-06-25 11:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

Sounds like an incentive to join a union, or form one.

Well shit, that spin on it is sure to get the wingdings all riled up.

#33 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2009-06-25 11:43 AM | Reply | Flag

So "Mr. Socieoeconomics Master" please do tell just how free is "free trade" globally.

I await your dissertation.

Please take into account the manipulation of the Chinese Yuan with the $, Japan's protectionist strategies and the impact of monopolistic policies practiced by Opec.

#47 | Posted by 726 at 2009-06-25 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag: obvious ditch digger never made over $5.25/hr poor me flag.

#49 | Posted by 726

Never talked about free trade - try again. My beef is that you and others think that someone working at McDonalds should be making as much as a doctor/dentist/insert other professional here.

If you choose to forgo an advanced education you earn what you deserve. Paying a ditch digger 50k/yr just so they can be in the middle class is assinine and bad economics. Instilling the desire for an advanced education is smart business sense. And don't give me the BS line not everyone can afford it. There are thousands who worked their way through community college - thousands. Nobody said life was easy.

My beef is that you and others think that someone working at McDonalds should be making as much as a doctor/dentist/insert other professional here.

This, kiddies is what is known as a strawman. A lie. Bullshit. Any way you'd like to say it. This guy is full of shit.

Polcie, fire teachers and other civil service unions are different from private industry unions.

Police, fire and emergency service employees work 24/7 in all sorts of weather conditions. Life expectency is shortened due to these irregular hours (police retiree aprrox 7 years after retirement). Many are injured during employment.

Teacher and health care union workers are not usually subjected to these gruelling conditions. Except for those health workers who work in hospitals 24/7.

Teachers, although highly educated work less than 40 hrs/wk and have summer off. The problem that children score poorly on tests is because this part of our education system was hijacked by socialists to enhance childdrens "esteem". Inclusion, diversity, homosexuality programs are the top of the agenda.

Most NYC civil service unions have 'Me Too" clauses in their contracts. In other words if one union gains an advantage for their members, the other unions want it too.

As far as private sector unions, as far as I can see is tahat the emplyoyers must make aprofit to be able to afford union pay and perks.

IMHO, GM and unions both screwed up.
During the gasoline cut-off, by our friends in Saudi Arabia in the 1970s, GM was still producing gas guzzlers. (I remember gas @ .30 cents in 1969,
the day Hil&Bil were sworn in, $1.00).
GM was still producing gas guzzlers at this time. They never foresaw the political future and realities.
Toyota, Nissan and Honda came out with smaller fuel efficeient models. Their production costs were much lower and thereby cheaper for the consumer.

GM management could not compete with these cheap cars due to labor and production costs. The management could not design and produce an efficient and reliable vehicles. The unions demanded better wages perks.

I don't know when it was approved, but I recall that auto workers could retire with 25 yrs service
at 55 y/o, w fully paid medical and pension.

Last year I heard that $2000-3000 of each vehicle ent to pay for these legacy costs.

Unions have destroyed GM and now we have OBAMA MOTORS. Which is a payback to the Almighty One's union supporters.