Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, June 23, 2009

Buzz Aldrin: Four decades have passed since the summer of 1969, when Neil Armstrong, Mike Collins and I flew America's first lunar landing mission. What we truly need is not more Cold War-style competition but a destination in space that offers great rewards for the risks to achieve it. I believe that destination must be homesteading Mars, the first human colony on another world.

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Let's not and say we did.

Let's aim for Earth first! We have too much work to do here. Mars can wait. We need to save our own planet first. WE can't even get to the bottom of the oceans on earth safely. We have only explored about 5% of the earths oceans and it covers 71% of the planet. And let's not forget we have a multitude of other problems me need to deal with here. Let's solve those before we move on to other worlds.

I am not against space exploration. Let our robots handle it for now. It is too expensive to send humans. Unless, of course, we find something worth sending a human for.

Mars Needs Women!

www.imdb.com

ok if they find women I will volunteer to go.

They won't FIND women there. Everyone knows Mars Needs Women.

Mars Needs Women!

Mars Needs Guitars.

/Hopelessly obscure reference.

Wotever you do don't fergit to bring yer space modulators.

Apparently, the inhabitants of the planet named after the Roman God of War are kinda cranky!

Go figure.

Be Well.

fine then I am not going. If they find smoke stacks they can send BBob!

The man from Mars is through with cars and eating bars and now he only eats guitars!

The man from Mars is through with cars and eating bars and now he only eats guitars!

Obscure Debbie Harry reference from Kanrei?

THAT'S wot Spud is talking 'bout!

Luff this frickin' place.

Be Well.

/Gone again
stage left.

=D

Who doesn't like Rapture?

Let's not and say we did.

#1 | Posted by donnerboy

I disagree. 40 years ago humankind did something amazing by reaching out and landing on something that was not Earth. Since then, we've thrown a lot of crap up into lower earth orbit, took some really cool long distance pictures, and sent some robots to explore. But manned space flight has stagnated. We as mankind haven't reached - we haven't grown to try to make it to other worlds. Shoot, we haven't tried to make it past the Hubble Telescope since the 70's. It's time to expand our horizons again and Mars is the place to do it.

Who doesn't like Rapture?

Posted by LetUsPrey at 2009-06-23 04:32 PM


Yeah, just think of it, LetUsPrey, we could all rapture up together and you could spend all of eternity with me, Murphy and nanc

Oh wait, I forgot. That would be your version of hell, lol.


We as mankind haven't reached - we haven't grown to try to make it to other worlds.

It is one thing if "we as mankind" did it. It is another of it is done by America alone.

I used to think like you. But then I grew up and saw all the problems we could be solving right here on Earth with all that money. I still believe in space exploration and we can do a lot of exploring with rover-type missions to Mars and the moons of Saturn and Jupiter.

But, until we clean up our own planet I think it is foolish of us to think we have any business mucking up another one.

The symbolic importance of sending humans to Mars is worth the additional costs of the mission. We owe it to future generations to continue striving towards the colonization of other planets. It's probably the only way that humanity will survive.

The United States won't do it, but China or India eventually will, illustrating who wears the pants on this planet.

"But, until we clean up our own planet I think it is foolish of us to think we have any business mucking up another one."

#13 | Posted by donnerboy at 2009-06-23 06:15 PM | Reply | Flag: ignored by Queen Isabella in another life

#15 | Posted by dibblda at 2009-06-23 09:05 PM | Reply | Flag: Failed to buy a clue when they were on sale.

Send Al Gore first....he can warm it up for the rest of us...

Seems kind of like a big waste of money, unless and until we figure out some way to turn it into a self sustaining financial venture.

#19 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-06-23 09:12 PM | Reply | Flag: stayed in Europe

Seems kind of like a big waste of money, unless and until we figure out some way to turn it into a self sustaining financial venture.

Expansion of knowledge and exploration are never a waste of money.

Stay off of ships, m8. You might fall off the edge of the earth

It's not matter on funding scientific research. It's a matter of funding scientific research wisely, - not merely in a manner that captures the imagination of Star Trek buffs.

don't they have three-tittied women on mars? I saw it on tv once.....

19 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-06-23 09:12 PM | Reply | Flag: stayed in Europe

I disagree. This is not the equivalent of 16th century Europeans venturing to the New World, with its abundant resources to make it attractive and self sustaining.

This would have been the equivalent of 16th century Europeans venturing to Antarctica.
Such a feat would have been amazing for them, but why would they want to remain and colonize or continue to go back?

I love the spirit of adventure and a part of me hopes that we will do it, but if it is not part of some kind of self sustaining financial venture it will be the Apollo missions all over again. Amazing for a decade and then the money will dry up.

Cheers

Good analogy Grendel. You probably summed up what I was trying to say better than I did.

don't they have three-tittied women on mars?

hell, even if there are just three, tittied-women there, it's worth the trip

don't they have three-tittied women on mars?

You saw "Total Recall" too! Yes. It was in the Venus Club, wasn't it? I haven't seen that movie in a while.

I liked the eye-popping special effects of the eyes popping.

"eyes popping"

3.bp.blogspot.com

Hey instead and more importantly lets "Aim" directly,with Tomahawk Missles,for the sleazy-slimy assholes of Dubya Bush and Dick Cheney!!!

You troglodytes deserve to be left behind here on earth.

I say, "Let's GO!"


And have Russia and China and anyone else help with finance and anything else--Private and Public funds.

:-P Zat, what's your point?

Buzz:

Nice idea, but we've got other priorities.

Like making sure everyone here on Earth has a job, a roof over his head, three square meals a day, a stable, sustainable economy to participate in and a decent compliment of civil rights.

Once we've got all that taken care of, we'll get back to you on the Mars thing.

Like making sure everyone here on Earth has a job, a roof over his head, three square meals a day, a stable, sustainable economy to participate in and a decent compliment of civil rights.

This will never happen, of course. In the course of human history this has never happened.

So I guess we just accept that fact that exploration is not an option anymore and stagnate here on earth.

Great idea, MTW. *snark*

"This will never happen, of course. In the course of human history this has never happened."

Neither has a manned trip to Mars, honey. Doesn't seem to stop you from thinking it might - with some effort - be doable.

Neither has a manned trip to Mars, honey. Doesn't seem to stop you from thinking it might - with some effort - be doable.

My sentiment exactly. Let's set our sites on something doable. Mankind has been trying for centuries to make sure every stomach is full, everyone has a job, and whatever the other pipe dreams you suggested. They haven't been able to do it.

We have proven we can put a man somewhere other than earth.

At any rate, why does it have to be one or the other? Keep trying to fulfill your pipe dream of a global utopia AND send a man to Mars.

Mars needs guitars. And I thought it was a Motley Crue reference.

I think Aldrin should get rid of his buzz. Everyone knows that NASA has had far more scientific success with unmanned missions and at a fraction of the costs.

Crisis

Send a man to Mars,why not ,here's a list........

Al Bundy said his ideal woman would have three breasts -one on the back for slow dancing.

We can't Make everyone have a job and a roof over their head, etc. There are certain things that people simply have to do for themselves.

The people of North Korea are subsisting on acorns, moss, and grass. We can't feed them because we can't get their insane leader out of the way. If the people would rise up en masse, they could solve their problem in a day. Then we could help them.

We can't give the people of Iran civil rights because of a pathetic troop of power-mad religious leaders are in the way. I'd like to think the people are about to rectify that situation, but somehow I expect this batch of psychotic mullahs would just be replaced with a new batch.

We can't stand guard in perpetuity over every tribal area in Asia and Africa to keep the warlords from creeping back in and opressing folks. People have to do those things for themselves. We can help, but only if those directly affected show the initiative.

I was four when Buzz and Neal walked on the moon. I remember it clearly. I have the front page of our local paper from that day framed in my living room. Few words get my attention faster than the word NASA. Manned space exploration can do something for all of us that machines simply can't.

Someone earlier made the point that a multi-national effort carries more weight than a "space race". There's something to that. I don't care how we go, as long as we go boldly and for a purpose. I don't care if a government or governments are behind the flight, or if it's a private concern.

We can't risk lives and billions of dollars to spend two years sending some folks to Mars to hit a golfball. But if our probes can pinpoint life or an intense promise thereof, we have to go, even if we have to walk there.

"It's a rap, with 'moon man' Buzz Aldrin and Snoop Dogg", for real!!


www.usatoday.com

Seems kind of like a big waste of money, unless and until we figure out some way to turn it into a self sustaining financial venture.

#19 | Posted by moder8

OMG. Space exploration is only the most important thing, when you get down to it, for this planet. Sooner or later we're going to have to leave and there's no time like now to start R&D on the next step into space. This is possibly the research that will lead to figuring out how to warp space/time to really be able to travel away from this solar system. I know that may sound fanciful but it is where we must head.


Seems kind of like a big waste of money, unless and until we figure out some way to turn it into a self sustaining financial venture.

#19 | Posted by moder8


It could be a financial venture. Using a Mars colony as a base, it would be possible to mine the asteroids in the asteroid belts and harvest the rare minerals there. We could harvest oxygen from the soil which would go a long way to making the colony more self-sustainable. I think it's a good goal to have and take steps toward. It makes a lot more sense than a lunar colony.

Fuck Mars. Let's check out Uranus. -Queers

Let's check out Mars and fuck Uranus- the GOP Congress

" Keep trying to fulfill your pipe dream of a global utopia AND send a man to Mars."

There you go again - adding something to what I said. I said nothing whatever about a Utopia. It's just that I feel our resources are too finite to be putting them into projects that don't directly benefit someone here on Earth.

And besides, if you want to see outer space and other worlds, Hollywood gives you a much better view than NASA. No comparison in the images.

It's just that I feel our resources are too finite to be putting them into projects that don't directly benefit someone here on Earth.

And besides, if you want to see outer space and other worlds, Hollywood gives you a much better view than NASA. No comparison in the images.

#46 | Posted by MaryTylerWhore

Do you have any idea, and it's obvious that you don't, of the amount and types of products and advancements that society has gained from the space program? We have already benefited and will only stand to benefit more from more research. Your type of thinking is what kills dreams and progress.

Until we have landed on something other than Earth, Mars is farfetched.

Shouldn't we gain some experience by landing on something closer...like the moon?

Until we have landed on something other than Earth, Mars is farfetched.

Shouldn't we gain some experience by landing on something closer...like the moon?

Google Apollo XI, Apollo XII, Apollo XIV, Apollo XV, Apollo XVI and Apollo XVII.

I'm still waiting for some nutter like Bob to come in and say we've not even been to the moon yet... I love those types - so much fun!


"Until we have landed on something other than Earth, Mars is farfetched."

Humans or robots?

farm4.static.flickr.com

We owe it to future generations...

We also owe it to future generations to take care of the only planet in the Universe that we currently know we can live on. Until we find another world that can support us we better learn to take care of this one a bit better or humans will indeed be fucked someday. Guaranteed!

When are we gonna drop a robot rover here in this crater? Looks a lot like ice to me. WE have a lot of exploring to do before we should be sending humans.

www.esa.int

If we find that this is indeed water then it might be worth sending humans.

Wait one centon.

I didn't know Apollo landed on the moon.

I thought the Apollo didn't land on the moon. I thought the Eagle landed. The Apollo capsule orbited the moon. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

Six Apollo missions landed on the moon. The landers themselves bore different names, e.g. "Eagle, etc.

Apollo refers to the program.

The LEM landed.
You can see the Apollo command modules.

Current locations of the Apollo Command Module Capsules

Apollo 11
Command Module "Columbia"
The National Air and Space Museum, Washington, D.C.

Lunar Module "Eagle"
Jettisoned from the Command Module on 21 July 1969 at 23:41 UT (7:41 PM EDT)
Impact site unknown

nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov

nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov

farm3.static.flickr.com

I didn't know Apollo landed on the moon.

#53 | Posted by Petrous

Why not make it simple? Tell us what you do know.

For those who claim that spending money on a manned trip to Mars is a waste of money that be spent on bettering mankind, consider this:

Currently 21% of our national budget goes to the military. .52% goes to NASA.

If future generations critique humanity for not spending money on the problems of society, I think they are more likely to point to the sin of wasting our productivity on weapons because we all can't get along.

Cheers

"Currently 21% of our national budget goes to the military. .52% goes to NASA."

I was wondering when someone would point that out.
These are the same folks who told Columbus not to go; Who told the Africans not to cross the water and colonize the rest of the planet.


I was wondering when someone would point that out.
These are the same folks who told Columbus not to go; Who told the Africans not to cross the water and colonize the rest of the planet.

Unfortunately, the quest for scientific knowledge is not enough to back such endeavors.

While scientific exploration excites human imagination, ultimately we are a pragmatic/practical sort.

Columbus may have had the heart of an explorer, but he needed the financial backing of Isabella and Ferdinand who were interested in the promise of easier trade routes. Leaving Africa probably had more to do with the hunt for prey than any desire to explore.

Unfortunately, I think it will be the military that provides the greater impetus for space travel. The potential for warfare in space will increase the budgets for military presence--perhaps including a human presence.

In general, NASA needs better PR. It needs to find a consistent, self sustaining pragmatic or practical reason why manned exploration should really matter to every human being on the planet and then continually hammer that message to the public at large and then Congress.

Rhetoric telling us that hope for our future lies out in space sounds grand, and I believe it, but for many it is empty rhetoric.

(Pro-manned space exploration is probably one of the few times we are in agreement.)

Cheers


"one of the few times we are in agreement"


=];*)

Once we establish a base on Mars then we can start planning on capturing a good sized asteroid, towing it to Earth orbit, hollowing it out while using those materials, and then we will have an indestructible colony to ensure the survival of humanity. Then we can go from there.

Let's send all our garbage, nuclear waste and Haz Mat to Mars. It'll be the new Nevada!

Let's aim for Earth first! We have too much work to do here. Mars can wait.

#1 | Posted by donnerboy

Damn straight! Earth first! We can always strip mine Mars later.

Homer : Wow, Marge, you really do understand me. See, I thought we weren't soulmates because ...

Marge : ... we had a fight?

Homer : Right, and we don't like the same things. It's like you're from Venus ...

Marge : ... and you're from Mars

Homer : Oh, sure, give me the one with all the monsters.

It's time to expand our horizons again and Mars is the place to do it.

#11 | Posted by bartimus

Do what?

For the most fortunate handful it will be quite the lark. Make for good (time-delayed) TV.

But for the rest of us poor slobs trapped in the gravity well of Earth? What do we get out of it?

Better Velcro?

Strawberry Tang?

It will be many, many, many, many decades before Mars can be even minimally colonized. Everything will need to be shipped up and out of the gravity well from Earth. Everything. Maybe there will be some aqua on Mars. I doubt you'll be able to sip it up out of the ground.

The quest for knowledge can be better fulfilled by better 'bots for probably a 100th of the cost of peopled missions.

Now is not the time for sending people other than for a stunt, a bid for prestige, maybe plant the stars and bars and dare the Chinee to jump our claim.

oh great - another planet we can screw up.

We owe it to future generations to continue striving towards the colonization of other planets. It's probably the only way that humanity will survive.

#14 | Posted by rcade

And those future colonists on those other lumpy rocks or in orbit in soup cans around some gassy sphere will not be able to come back down the gravity well for BBQ and beer, ever. Maybe they'll survive. But they will be entirely dependent on Earther benevolence for decades if not centuries to come. Extortion will become a common act.

They will become other than human because they will have to adapt and evolve into their new environments. They will change. They will be shunned.

And even if a new mamma-jamma propulsion unit is developed, where we gonna go beyond our own little system? We may get out to the Oort cloud in as relatively short time (this is, nobody dies of old age on the way out) and kick about the ice rocks, but going interstellar?

Trek makes for cute sci-fi. Reality though is not its biz.

#37 | Posted by goatman

"We have proven we can put a man somewhere other than earth."

Yeah, on a local rock. It was cool. We did it. I saw it happen. Okay... Now what?

"At any rate, why does it have to be one or the other? Keep trying to fulfill your pipe dream of a global utopia AND send a man to Mars."

The Big Prob though is that Man is not well suited for the rigors of space. Even the extremely brief jaunts that have been undertaken so far have caused measurable deterioration of bone and muscle. The Space Yugo drivers have had a few problems re-acclimating to being on The Ground. And this after a mere handful of days. What's the long term to Mars gonna do? The best we can artificially generate now is a mere fraction of a G, and that's spinning one about like a ball on the end of a rope. Even rigorous exercise has not proven to be enough to counteract the lack of G.

The Discovery in 2001 would have had the 'nauts experiencing severe problems from the coriolis effect. 1. Because the spin hab was so small, the feet were actually moving significantly faster the the head. 2. If you were to cross/walk diagonally from the spin, disorientation would set in quickly, again because of the short radius of the spin hab.

Beyond the physiological, what will be the psychological fallout from a "deep" space voyage? (Though in terms of interstellar distance and the voids between the stars, I don't consider jaunts about the local solar system as Deep Space).

It will be many, many, many, many decades before Mars can be even minimally colonized.

#67 | Posted by ZOT

Then why wait? If it's gonna take 50 years to colonize Mars, then why not start now and have a viable colony by 2070 versus starting in 50 years and being that much further behind?


I didn't know Apollo landed on the moon.


#53 | Posted by Petrous


Why not make it simple? Tell us what you do know.

#58 | Posted by wisgod

Did you miss the "wait one centon"?
Tell me when you discover who Apollo was.

I like Homer's version best

Why are we not trying to figure out our oceans and how to colonize the depths? Seems like the largest available area within close reach and all we do is pollute it and eat as much of it's inhabitants as we can.........

and I am by no means advocating the closure of NASA or reducing space exploration, quite the opposite. I just think there is a lot to be gained by being able to live in the sea......(Aquaman)

LM


Did you miss the "wait one centon"?
Tell me when you discover who Apollo was.

#72 | Posted by Petrous

What does that have to do with your original gem....

"Shouldn't we gain some experience by landing on something closer...like the moon?"

Yeah, on a local rock. It was cool. We did it. I saw it happen. Okay... Now what?

The logical choice would be the next closest viable thing -- Mars.

BTW, I fully agree with your views on man not knowing the full affects of long term space travel. But we have to start somewhere.

I too, considered the coriolis affect of Frank and Dave on the Discovery. That is my favorite movie of all time

"The logical choice would be the next closest viable thing -- Mars."

goatTroll,

Logical choice? Not really. Seeing what elements are available on the moon is a far better option and logical next step.

Creating a permanent space station with manufacturing capabilities would be another next step.

any Mars transport should be built in space. You do understand gravity and escape velocity?

Of course you have to ask the question why even visit Mars? Just because it's there would make the trip a bit of a waste of money.

any Mars transport should be built in space. You do understand gravity and escape velocity?

It takes as much if not more energy to get mass into terrestrial orbit a little bit at a time (more because more missions are require) vs all at once. You do understand HS physics, don't you? The extra missions would cost much more, too. You do understand basic economics, don't you?

Creating a permanent space station with manufacturing capabilities would be another next step

Manufacturing what and with what raw materials?

Seeing what elements are available on the moon is a far better option and logical next step.

Silicates mostly. Next?

Of course you have to ask the question why even visit Mars? Just because it's there would make the trip a bit of a waste of money

Then you feel the Apollo program was a waste of money?

"Then you feel the Apollo program was a waste of money?

#79 | Posted by goatman "

The Apollo program was part of the US conflict with the USSR. It was also part of building NASA and the US presence in space.

What would a Mars mission be? Just for the sake of it? What's the ROI?

It was also part of building NASA and the US presence in space.

So our presence in space is established to the moon and that is a boundary set by whom? We should contact that entity and remind him/her/it that there are further frontiers to be conquered.

What would a Mars mission be?

Precurser to colonization.

What is an ROI?

Return

On

Investment

ROI

Thanks, zat

How does one quantify the expansion of knowledge and conquering new frontiers?


"It takes as much if not more energy to get mass into terrestrial orbit a little bit at a time (more because more missions are require) vs all at once. You do understand HS physics, don't you? The extra missions would cost much more, too. You do understand basic economics, don't you?"

You obviously don't understand basic HS physics do you troll? The bigger the payload, the bigger the rocket, the bigger the stresses, the bigger the engineering effort, the bigger the fuel load, the bigger the risk, the bigger the cost. And of course it has to be manned which just further increases all the risk. they actually trust you on the rig?

Everyone knows any Mars mission will be launched from orbit. How come you don't troll?

"
Seeing what elements are available on the moon is a far better option and logical next step.

Silicates mostly. Next?

#78 | Posted by goatman"

Really goatTroll now you are an expert on what elements are on the moon? There has been very little investigation of the moon.

"How does one quantify the expansion of knowledge and conquering new frontiers?"

Posted by goatman at 2009-06-24 08:10 PM


Hint: ROI ain't it.

Permanent bases on the moon and Mars greatly increases the probability homo sapiens' DNA will survive.

Besides, it's cool.

You obviously don't understand basic HS physics do you troll? The bigger the payload, the bigger the rocket, the bigger the stresses, the bigger the engineering effort, the bigger the fuel load, the bigger the risk, the bigger the cost.

So you think it would be cheaper if building a car in space to use one mission to take the transmission, another to take the engine, another to take the body, etc.? LOL Though it would take more energy to take the whole thing up at once, it would be cheaper than doing it piecemeal because each time you have to expend energy to lift the launch vehicle and the fuel itself. Or did you forget that part? LOL

they actually trust you on the rig?

Yes. People with faulty logic like you get run off.

Everyone knows any Mars mission will be launched from orbit.

That what everyone thought about a lunar mission in 1958. They also thought it wouldn't happen until the year 2000. (if you can find a copy of Popular Science from May 1958, read the cover story) So much for what "everyone thinks"

Really goatTroll now you are an expert on what elements are on the moon?

No. Nor am I an expert on the sun, but I know it is mostly hydrogen

Permanent bases on the moon and Mars greatly increases the probability homo sapiens' DNA will survive.

That was partially my point. How does one put a monetary value on such an intangible?

"Permanent bases on the moon and Mars greatly increases the probability homo sapiens' DNA will survive.

#85 | Posted by Zatoichi"

the fuck it does. Both are incredibly inhospitable environments which would require constant resupply. you have been reading way too much sci fi. The effort to even set up a permanent population would probably take up a huge part of the global gdp which would be better spent making earth more livable.

Both are incredibly inhospitable environments which would require constant resupply. you have been reading way too much sci fi.

Mars could probably be terraformed to a point where minimal survival gear would be needed. The moon could not be. It would require habitats, of course. But even those in time could become self sufficient.

So your suggestion is what, furryhole -- sit here on mother earth forever? Or are you one of those starry eyed dreamers who think that every belly has to be full and every foot shod before we spend a penny in space?

"So you think it would be cheaper if building a car in space to use one mission to take the transmission, another to take the engine, another to take the body, etc.? LOL Though it would take more energy to take the whole thing up at once, it would be cheaper than doing it piecemeal because each time you have to expend energy to lift the launch vehicle and the fuel itself. Or did you forget that part? LOL"

GoatTroll you obviously aren't engineer material. The fuel costs are nothing it's how to engineer an incredibly complex combination vehicle weighing many times more than anything that has launched before. that's where all the cost is. and einstein you not only need enough fuel to launch the vehicle but the fuel itself. You know a lot of the fuel in the rockets are expended on lifting just fuel, right? you also know this starts becoming a diminishing return?

what a clown.

go back to reading your Popular Science.

"you have been reading way too much sci fi"

Nice try. I'm an astrophysicist.

"Mars could probably be terraformed to a point where minimal survival gear would be needed. The moon could not be. It would require habitats, of course. But even those in time could become self sufficient.

So your suggestion is what, furryhole -- sit here on mother earth forever? Or are you one of those starry eyed dreamers who think that every belly has to be full and every foot shod before we spend a penny in space?

#90 | Posted by goatman"

Ooooh terraformed. Someone has been reading some Robinson. Bullshit. you expect to change Mars atmosphere and ecology??? what a dumb fuck!!! We can't even predict the weather or figure out exactly what to do about global warming. but terraforming Mars? Not a problem.

No dickhead I think there are many more science problems to solve first on earth before wasting money on a whim. Maybe explore the seas first possibly?

...what a clown.

go back to reading your Popular Science.

#91 | Posted by furio at 2009-06-24 08:27 PM


But we're still waiting for an answer to Goat's other question to you --

If a submarine had a missle pointed at you, which sonar operator would you rather have defending you?

a) one who had trained only on a simulator

b) one who had trained on a simulator and real world conditions


lol

The fuel costs are nothing it's how to engineer an incredibly complex combination vehicle weighing many times more than anything that has launched before. that's where all the cost is.

You conveniently ignore the cost of multiple missions vs one or two.

and einstein you not only need enough fuel to launch the vehicle but the fuel itself. You know a lot of the fuel in the rockets are expended on lifting just fuel, right? you also know this starts becoming a diminishing return?

My point exactly. When applied to multiple missions, these costs skyrocket -- er, sorry for the bad pun.

As I said, whatever Mars missions are being planned today will be completely different that what really happens, just as the lunar missions were. In 1958 common knowledge was that a lunar mission had to launched from orbit and probably using nuclear rockets, and would take the world's GDP to finance.

For some reason you forget that technology continues to march on . . . . Who knows what technology or resources will be used to get a man to Mars? Probably something very unfamiliar to us today.

"you have been reading way too much sci fi"

Nice try. I'm an astrophysicist.

#92 | Posted by Zatoichi"

How does this make you an expert on setting up colonies off world?

Bullshit. you expect to change Mars atmosphere and ecology??? what a dumb fuck!!! We can't even predict the weather or figure out exactly what to do about global warming. but terraforming Mars? Not a problem.

Oh ye of little faith. LOL It is not an endeavour that would happen overnight. It would be a centuries long project.

"You conveniently ignore the cost of multiple missions vs one or two."

No Troll you forget that the research is the biggest cost in any problem and the more complex the problem the higher the research costs. And the cost are far from linear.

You also forget you have to build the facility to build the rocket. You know an assembly line.

you are losing the argument goatTroll

"For some reason you forget that technology continues to march on . . . . Who knows what technology or resources will be used to get a man to Mars? Probably something very unfamiliar to us today.'

sure goatTroll maybe in 50+ years. Who knows? But to plan today is just a pie in the sky dream.

"As I said, whatever Mars missions are being planned today will be completely different that what really happens, just as the lunar missions were. In 1958 common knowledge was that a lunar mission had to launched from orbit and probably using nuclear rockets, and would take the world's GDP to finance."

And nukes would still be the most viable option unless something radical is invented. We are still using the same solid and liquid fuels as ever. Maybe a bit more efficient with better materials but not enough to make a real difference. And don't hold your breath waiting for a better option.

for example you do know the basic four stroke engine was patented by an Italian back in the 1840s?

you are losing the argument goatTroll

Why? Because you say so? One participant of the debate declares himself the judge, then declares his opponent the loser. Great job if you can get it. LOL

Actually, it is you who is moving into the name-calling phase. We all know what that means. LOL


what a dumb fuck!!!
No dickhead
what a clown.

" you expect to change Mars atmosphere and ecology? "

Homo sapiens has done that on this planet repeatedly long before the industrial revolution.

'100,000 years ago, Homo sapiens first ventured out of Africa. The world they entered was the domain of giants: monstrous marsupials, huge eagles, savage short-faced bears and the terrifying 5.5 metre long ripper lizard, Megalania.

These monsters now exist only in our imagination or as long dead bones in a museum. In some areas of the world over 70% of large mammals became extinct around the time that humans arrived on the continent. But why? Was it man's arrival or was it coincidence?

What are the real answers to the mystery of the missing megafauna?'

www.bbc.co.uk

A couple of DR regulars: www.bbc.co.uk

But to plan today is just a pie in the sky dream.

So when should we start planning?

"'100,000 years ago, Homo sapiens first ventured out of Africa. The world they entered was the domain of giants: monstrous marsupials, huge eagles, savage short-faced bears and the terrifying 5.5 metre long ripper lizard, Megalania.

These monsters now exist only in our imagination or as long dead bones in a museum. In some areas of the world over 70% of large mammals became extinct around the time that humans arrived on the continent. But why? Was it man's arrival or was it coincidence?"

that's right, early man ate up all the mega-fauna and that means we can terraform Mars.

How about this one rats have eaten most of the native birds on Easter Island. should we ask them to perfect cold fusion now?

We are still using the same solid and liquid fuels as ever.

Ion engines, though very low thrust are very effecient and require little fuel. They could be launched ahead of time in such a manner that their velocity would match that of the manned vehicle when it approached it. These ion powered 'way stations' could carry supplies, fuel, parts, whatever. This would make it easier to build a manned craft on launched from earth. They could even carry building materials for a simple habitat. They would have to be launched a a few years ahead of the manned vehicle, so to start planning for it today would not be out of the question.

"Why? Because you say so? One participant of the debate declares himself the judge, then declares his opponent the loser. Great job if you can get it. LOL

Actually, it is you who is moving into the name-calling phase. We all know what that means. LOL "

Avoiding the issues goatTroll. And really GoatTroll you don't insult? Please.

Avoiding the issues goatTroll

Which issue have I avoided?

And really GoatTroll you don't insult?

If I insulted you by providing facts, that is your problem, not mine. I have not moved into the name-calling phase unless you count the one variation on your name. But seeeing as to how every other word in your posts is 'goattroll', that one 'furryhole' from me seems acceptable.

Speaking of avoiding issues, when do you think we should start planning a Martian mission. You appear to think that now is not the time.

"Ion engines, though very low thrust are very effecient and require little fuel. They could be launched ahead of time in such a manner that their velocity would match that of the manned vehicle when it approached it. These ion powered 'way stations' could carry supplies, fuel, parts, whatever. This would make it easier to build a manned craft on launched from earth. They could even carry building materials for a simple habitat. They would have to be launched a a few years ahead of the manned vehicle, so to start planning for it today would not be out of the question."

GoatTroll you now using my argument to assemble in space? You said everything should be launched at once in something the size of a Nimitz class. Now you are changing your mind?

Let's hope all the engineers are all using the metric system or one of the payloads might go missing. Cannibals in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.

GoatTroll you now using my argument to assemble in space? You said everything should be launched at once in something the size of a Nimitz class. Now you are changing your mind?

These ion powered 'way stations' could carry supplies, fuel, parts, whatever.

I guess if in your vernacular fuel, parts, and supplies for a colony are considered construction items, yes I would agree with you. But I have a different version of the concept. I do not consider these supplies, fuel, and parts to be an integral part of the vehicle.

"should we ask them to perfect cold fusion now? "

Why not? It's ratshit anyway.

ZAT

A couple of DR regulars: www.bbc.co.uk

#101 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2009-06-24 08:45


Hmm, you said "a couple of DR regulars" and a lot of you are from Texas. Is it just me or does the background in your
www.bbc.co.uk link look a little like the red clay scenery in West Texas -- a little dry and sparse -- so it can't be Texas Hill country, right? So who could those two DR (Texan?) guys be?

ZAT

Link didn't work, try it again

wwwbbc.co.uk

A side note on the Aldrin thing:

When I was a teenager, (~13, 14) our next door neighbor's husband who was a Col in the Air Force was shot down and taken POW in Vietnam. He was a friend of Buzz Aldrin. Buzz came to visit Mrs. J a couple of times. She knew how much I admired the space program and told me that Mr. Aldrin would be visiting the next day. I wanted so badly to meet him. This was after he had already done the Gemini mission, but prior to Apollo XI.

Well, my mother told me I shouldn't bother him. Still, I waited outside that day until I saw the car with the gov tags pull up. I ran over and introduced myself to him. It was one of the most exciting times in my life.

The next time I saw him was after Apollo XI a couple of years later when he came to visit Mrs. J. He gave me an Apollo XI patch that he autographed on the back. I was so proud of that that I had my mother sew it on my jacket. Unfortunately, my mother washed that jacket and most of the ink from his autograph ran off. But I still have the patch and his autograph is still faintly visible.

After the war, Col J came home and is now the US Rep from that part of Texas.

"But I still have the patch and his autograph is still faintly visible."

Buzz ain't dead yet, call him.

Buzz ain't dead yet, call him.

I actually thought of contacting him via the internet and seeing if I could mail it to him for a re-sign. But I wonder if he'd remember that scrawny boy from N Texas and those two short times we spoke?

Buzz ain't dead yet, call him.

#113 | Posted by Zatoichi

I just saw a piece on Access Hollywood or one of those shows earlier tonight and Aldrin was cutting a rap track with Snoop Dog.

No kidding.

" But I wonder if he'd remember that scrawny boy from N Texas and those two short times we spoke?"

Posted by goatman at 2009-06-24 09:21 PM


You might be surprised.
Even if he doesn't, it won't matter.

I don't expect Sylvia Earle to remember me personally, but I brought her food 1/6 of the time at Tektite and watched her on TV another 1/6 of the time and shared the finest night dive I'll ever have with her and 98 other lucky folks; Full moon, no lights; Didn't need 'em.

"red clay scenery in West Texas"

Fail geology much?

"I guess if in your vernacular fuel, parts, and supplies for a colony are considered construction items, yes I would agree with you. But I have a different version of the concept. I do not consider these supplies, fuel, and parts to be an integral part of the vehicle.

#108 | Posted by goatman "

Well GoatTroll you have such great ideas why don't you sketch them out in crayon and mail them to NASA like all the other 7 yos with overactive imaginations?

Well GoatTroll you have such great ideas why don't you sketch them out in crayon and mail them to NASA like all the other 7 yos with overactive imaginations?

I doubt if they accept any idea written in crayon.

Besides, that's not my idea. You can read about it on the NASA website.

Anything else, furrytroll?

"Besides, that's not my idea. You can read about it on the NASA website.

Anything else, furrytroll?

#119 | Posted by goatman "

Really GoatTroll? Why don't you show me the NASA link where they describe the planned single launch vehicle for Mars?

Really GoatTroll? Why don't you show me the NASA link where they describe the planned single launch vehicle for Mars?

Um, furrytroll, if there are ion rockets ahead of the main manned one, that cannot be considered a single launch vehicle.

If you can't find the NASA site, you wouldn't understand it anyway

"Besides, that's not my idea. You can read about it on the NASA website.

Anything else, furrytroll?

#119 | Posted by goatman "

Not talking about that GoatTroll talking about your fantastic single launch vehicle. About how it is far easier and cost effective to build one massive rocket rather than building the mars vehicle in orbit. I would love to hear more of your analysis on this. Mr. Engineer.

I would love to hear more of your analysis on this. Mr. Engineer.

As I said, it wasn't my idea.

You are going to have to be more on the ball, furrytroll, if you want me to own you and allow you with the rest of my herd of trolls. I don't like repeating myself to the stupid ones.

If you want to know more about it, go to the NASA website. They can explain it better than I.

Fuck NASA...read John McPhee's book The Curve of Binding Energy which featured the Orion project.

[Ted} Taylor later became the leader of a secret scientific effort, financed by the federal government, to make a spaceship the size of a sixteen-story building. The ship was of his invention and was to be called Orion. Powered by two thousand atomic bombs, exploding one at a time, it would move very rapidly to Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Pluto. The Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty of 1963 ended the project (but if human beings ever achieve travel much beyond the moon, some such vehicle will carry them).
www.johnmcphee.com

The idea was to shoot the plut out the ass end and detonate it so it would heat a carbon plate and drive the spaceship. They actually made a scale model and used conventional explosives. It worked.

Here you go, furrytroll, since you are unable to find the NASA site and the manned Mars mission yourself, I did it for you. Ain't I a nice guy? As you see, there is no mention of building the craft in orbit. It specifically says it is launched from Earth. Don't you ever tire of being wrong all the time and isn't it embarassing being shown you are wrong after making such a fuss and calling people 'dumbshit'? LOL

Conventional chemical rockets (currently used for the space shuttle) will be used to launch Mars-bound spacecraft into LEO.
nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov

Maybe it is you who needs to take the crayon and write NASA a letter letting them know it isn't possible. LOL

They need to figure out how to control the weather on earth before they tackle mars.


They need to figure out how to control the weather on earth before they tackle mars.

#126 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Come on Bob, George Bush could already control the weather. How else could he have destroyed New Orleans? At least that what the far left said. And now that we have your Demi-God as president there will be know hurricanes.

They need to figure out how to control the weather on earth before they tackle mars.

YOu've got it backwards. Mars is much more dynamic. There are far more variables on earth (not the least of which are oceans). On mars, no polluting factories (oops -- I'm talking to da bOoB. Maybe there are) no oceans, no deforestation. What we learn from controlling mars' weather could be a foundation to learning to control earth's

You are suggesting tackling a post graduate course before getting out of elementary school, bOoB

oops

Mars is much more dynamic =
Mars is much less dynamic

"President Bush's plan to return humans to the Moon as a stepping stone to Mars was applauded today by many scientists eager to unlock the geological and biological secrets of the red planet."
www.space.com

setting up colonies off world...

#96 | Posted by furio


That's all kewl and stuff. Great for sc-fi tale telling. Keep in mind that once they are there in The Deep and established long term, they can't come back. Earth will no longer be their world. The gravity, the air pressure, the light, will all be just a bit too intense. How about all the terrestrial bugs and beasties, small and big? Perhaps external aids will assist, exoskeletons and rebreathers for example. Returning will be even more difficult for space hab denizens. And once they start having kids of their own, they will perforce become a new subspecies, unable to walk the green hills of Terra unaided. Ever.

Mars is about .38G of Earth. That is significant difference.

This all must be considered before we start the Great Diaspora from Terra. We will be creating yet another division of Us and Them. But more than likely in standard human fashion, we'll Just Do It and sort it all out later. Just like we've been doing so well these past few millenia co-habitating on Earth.

There are those who argue that only by colonizing space will the human species be able to survive. Okay... What is the minimum number of people required to ensure genetic diversity so we don't end being a bunch a froppy, floppy, foo-foo French Princes and ultimately breed ourselves into mutated, mindless, slack-jawed, drooling mouth-breathers who vote only party lines? 1,000? 10,000? 10,000,000?

Ain't so simple.

" you expect to change Mars atmosphere and ecology? "

Homo sapiens has done that on this planet repeatedly long before the industrial revolution.

#101 | Posted by Zatoichi

The point though that it was still Planet Earth, Third Rock from the Sun. Not a lot has really changed. Oxygen, nitrogen, 1G, lots of H2O, and plentiful plants and beasties to freely munch and crunch. And the abundant hairy women! Yeah Baby!

That will all change once we get out there. Even that hairy woman thang.

What is the minimum number of people required to ensure genetic diversity

#131 | Posted by ZOT at 2009-06-25 11:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

It is certainly more than two--as in Adam and Eve. Your point highlights the logic of evolution.

The point though that it was still Planet Earth, Third Rock from the Sun. Not a lot has really changed.

#132 | Posted by ZOT at 2009-06-25 11:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

The Earth has gone through many changes that have killed off species. 99% of ALL species that ever lived on this planet have gone extinct--plant and animal.

Besides, how can you people give any credibility to Aldrin---he's seen UFO's, so he must be crazy, delusional, or not bright enough to tell the difference between a bird or plane and a UFO on the way to the moon.

www.ufoevidence.org

The Earth has gone through many changes that have killed off species. 99% of ALL species that ever lived on this planet have gone extinct--plant and animal.

#134 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

The response was to the presence/timeline of human beans, not the entire history of the friggin' planet. 'Cause you know there, Bob, once upon an eon, there was nothing but lava and smoke and nasty gas and lots and lots of heat. But from the time of Lucy and the boys in the band, apart from some glacial ice age stuff and some big nasty really hairy long toothy beasties, which ultimately were beaten and eaten and the leftovers made into wearables (Egad! Cover that hair, woman!), Earth was fairly stable and a good place to hang out on.

Try to stay focused there, old boot.

Zot

Lucy's species and all she knew became extinct--that doesn't seem too stable to me. Maybe you had those cheap teachers in school. It would explain your ignorance--hey how about that Adam and Eve comment---I guess your intellect allows you to ignore reality.

My focus is fine--yours seems a little out of whack.

They need to figure out how to control the weather on earth before they tackle mars.

#126 | POSTED BY BUFFALO_BOB AT 2009-06-25 04:42 AM | REPLY | FLAG

good luck. i guess we also need to control eruption of calderas, figure how to shoot down asteroids, and trump tsunamis as well then.

let me know how your efforts turn out.

Lucy's species and all she knew became extinct--that doesn't seem too stable to me. Maybe you had those cheap teachers in school. It would explain your ignorance--hey how about that Adam and Eve comment---I guess your intellect allows you to ignore reality.

My focus is fine--yours seems a little out of whack.

#137 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Y'a know there Bob, you're just being a nit-pickin' little bitch. So what else is new wit' you?

And your asparagusses to my intylekt and eddykashun are jus' low, pathetically low, like bitch low. Bitch...

So in parting, I leave you with this: shove your lunar smoking stack up your gaping maw of a bum and spin and blow the smoke out your ears while whipping yourself with a car antenny and singing "Moon Over My Hammy." Don't fo'get to get blurry video for "proof" that you did. We'all'd probably even pay to see that.

let me know how your efforts turn out.

#138 | Posted by somoco at 2009-06-25 01:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

What makes you think I was going to put any effort into it?

However, the things you mentioned need to be done in order to secure survival. But who says Humanity will survive? It looks rather bleak for any long term survival by humanity. The dinos have the record.

Zot

No answer to the Adam and Eve bit? What a surprise. You start with insults then whine like a little bitch when some comes back at you. Poor baby.

No answer to the Adam and Eve bit? What a surprise. You start with insults then whine like a little bitch when some comes back at you. Poor baby.

#141 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

What answer were you expecting, Buffalo_Bitch? Y'a wrotes what y'a wrotes and I agreed wit' your premise. There was a question? I needed to ACK your A&E?

'Sides, I got to bitch y'a first, a nit-pickin' little bitch to be eggzact. So bugger off, smokey hole.

(Y'a know, I usually refrain from this type of cyber-bash: I usually reserve it solely for The Wanker. But today, like calling a spade a spade, I had to call a bitch a bitch; seemed oh so right.)

from above...

"Let's not and say we did.

Let's aim for Earth first! We have too much work to do here. Mars can wait. We need to save our own planet first."

I love Buzz and the boys who took the moon for us,
but this post is right on. Too much damn work to
do right here. Lets start by tackling what the last generation would like to forget. The huge deficit it handed us.

Zot

You didn't agree with my premise. You simply lied. That makes you a liar doesn't it, spade?

#133: Zot, you cite issues that are all true, espicalliy the inability to return to Terra. However your last concern, genetic diversity, should not be an issue. We simply carry the DNA of thousands and keep inserting it into the genepool until genetic diversity is achieved.

oops replying to zot's #131 in miy #145

That makes you a liar doesn't it, spade?

Isn't the next thing is to tell him he hates America?

Goatman. When I was a kid Bob Crippen, the first guy to fly in the space shuttle, lived right across the street from me. I too was very enthralled by space and the guys who flew there. I did an interview with him for school once. Other than that, you hardly ever saw the guy. They keep 'em pretty busy at NASA.

Oh, and Furio, you are like the rest of the naysayers. R&D into a Mars mission would be so beneficial in so many ways that you are not even considering. Never mind the fact that some day we are going to have to leave this planet. Seems to me that starting on that project couldn't be done too soon.

We simply carry the DNA of thousands and keep inserting it into the genepool until genetic diversity is achieved.

#145 | Posted by goatman

But... but.. that's no fun at'all!

But {sigh} it's probably more practical than trying to avoid squirting each other across the Zero-G lounge. Fewer bumps and bruises, but no joy.

Never mind the fact that some day we are going to have to leave this planet. Seems to me that starting on that project couldn't be done too soon.

#148 | Posted by everlong

IF we survive that long, more than likely. But starting on what project? Shipping mini-ecosystems up to Mars, at rather stupendous costs? Just so a handful of 'nauts can step foot? Remember, the 'naut will have to take everything needed just for survival with them. Everything. With our current primitive tech, if they don't have it with them or it ain't there waiting for them, or a follow-up provisioning is not sent along behind them, if there is a problem, there are no local mini-malls. And it ain't gonna be cheap no how.

Better ways. Though the distance equating to time lag is a bit of a prob, robotics is still the most expedient, efficient, low-cost (relatively) method to conduct our interplanetary explorations. Better, more robust systems are being developed (I have been seriously impressed with Spirit and Opportunity). If we could at least figure out FTL comm, then we could explore virtually in real time through robo-proxies on site.

Personally, as enthralled as I am with The Deep, this is not our time for manned interplanetary missions. We don't have the tech to make it truly viable. We certainly don't have the excess funds. And most of all, we are still conducting ourselves down here like idiots, can't get along, threatening each other, pouring our souls into better, bigger, meaner ways of kicking each other's ass. Too few Haves and billions of Have Nots. The American goes to Mars in "high tech" splendor in his mini-world of marvelous things, the Nigerian hobbles down the dirt path in the hope of getting a dribble of fetid water and a cup of rice until the next nightmare day when he'll try again.

That makes you a liar doesn't it, spade?

#144 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

I lied about what, BB_Sweetie?

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