As a Young Republican once earnesly informed me. possession of money is the best way to allocate medical care.

Let's hope that little boy grew up to be rich.

Neal Boortz was looking down his nose last week at a caller who said he wasn't able to afford a $5,000 deductible in order to get health insurance. Interesting man, Boortz.

Listening/reading to some people you'd think the entire world was terminally ill. It's not.

I don't feel like paying for someone's health care that has chosen, booze, babes, bikes, new cars, big houses, plasma tv's, yep that's plural, in lieu of a health policy or a rainy day savings plan.

Most people could get by with a catastrophic policy and savings account set off to the side for the unseen.

For the indigent and the elderly we already have 2 broke government systems. Medi Care and Medicaid.

According to the RAND health insurance experiment, health care consumers do not make rational choices about what care is superfluous when it comes to costs. If there are financial barriers, patients reduce all care - both necessary and unecessary.

----

There have to be financial barriers regardless of public or private insurance. Otherwise, costs will keep skyrocketing.

"Most people can get by with a catastrophic policy...."

Increasingly, most people have to. Sure there are medical programs for the indigent. I'd just assume not be forced into poverty to access them.

The other part of this, beyond those miscreants and their plasma television sets, are insurance companies that suck up billions without any firm committment to provide shit, pardon my French.

I agree with both of you pirate and washboard.

However, I have seen the other side of the beast and I live it every day.

I don't have any frills in my life yet I can't afford to pay for most of my health care needs. It's easy to say that we have 2 systems for the indigentand the elderly but what do we have for the father of 3 who winds up with MS at 29.

I'll tell you what we have, health care rationing in the extreme. The steroid treatment is 1600 scratch that I'll just suck it up and deal. The MRI is 1400-4000 depending, ah who needs to know how the MS is progressing anyway. The medication to slow it down and allow me to keep working longer is 24,000 ah heck we'll just say our prayers and hope for the best. The recomended medication to deal with neuropathic pain is 180 a month, good news vicodin is only 5 a month so what if I wind up adicted to it and have to use more and more to deal with 24/7 pain.

There are a lot of people out there in the same boat and to burry your head in the sand and say it doesn't happen or it's always because of poor choices is just plain wrong.

TaoWarrior

You and I had a long talk a year or more ago. Any word on being able to get your medicine through the Patient Assistant Program I spoke to you about?

My cousin had just turned 40 in August, and she was diagnosed with MS shortly afterward. Any new potential cures on the horizon that you've heard of? Maybe now that we can finally have embryonic stem cell research since Obama signed the bill allowing it there may be some hope for a cure. I hope so.

What's mean annual income in Texas? Less than 30K if memory serves. $1000 a month for health insurance (if lucky) puts a dent in that. Puts a dent in being rational about other necessary expenses, also. You're going to need a plasma television, actually. No one's going to Vegas.

"Most people could get by with a catastrophic policy and savings account set off to the side for the unseen."

Duh! That is the principle that makes insurance possible. Most people don't have car accidents.
Most people don't slip and fall. Insurance is to protect all of us against the possibility that we won't be lucky enough to be included in most people.
As far as the attitude: "I don't feel like paying for someone's health care that has chosen, booze, babes, bikes, new cars, big houses, plasma tv's, yep that's plural, in lieu of a health policy or a rainy day savings plan."....quite simply fuck you. There are plenty of people who contract horrible diseases through no fault of their own. Karma would dictate that you should be one with an attitude like that.

"Most people could get by with a catastrophic policy and savings account set off to the side for the unseen."

Duh! That is the principle that makes insurance possible. Most people don't have car accidents.
Most people don't slip and fall. Insurance is to protect all of us against the possibility that we won't be lucky enough to be included in most people.
As far as the attitude: "I don't feel like paying for someone's health care that has chosen, booze, babes, bikes, new cars, big houses, plasma tv's, yep that's plural, in lieu of a health policy or a rainy day savings plan."....quite simply fuck you. There are plenty of people who contract horrible diseases through no fault of their own. Karma would dictate that you should be one with an attitude like that.

Tao,

Yea, cases like yours are tough. My brother has epilepsy as well as a mental illness. He's unemployed and over the course of the past 6 years has probably racked up a couple hundred thousand in medical bills. Fortunately, the Sisters of Charity have covered most of his bills.

I don't know the answer. I think we need something along the lines of single payer or government provided healthcare. But there still needs to be some rationing like copays or coinsurance with some type of out of pocket cap for cases like yours.

Well I normally wouldn't do something like this, but, Right back at ya Danni.

If you didn't have your head up your ass you'd be able to differentiate between the words most and all.

I interact with people who make piss poor choices daily and always seem to think it's okay. And many of them are in their 40's and 50's.

Again, if you listen to/ read some people you'd think the entire world is terminally ill. It's not.

Mark my words. When the government gets hold of the health care industry there won't be nearly as many old people or terminally ill people sucking up the resources. Abortion won't be choice it'll be mandatory. You'll be waiting to see your government appointed doctor for much longer than you wait now. The list goes on and on. But, I suppose every trip you ever make to the DMV, state revenue dept. etc. you're always met by a freindly, competent, and expeditious public service worker.

You're a dreamer if you think government is going to save you. We'd all be better off if none of us had insurance and we truly knew the meaning of love your neighbor. But, as you demostrate routinely you prefer to curse most.

Chris,

There has been some success with stem cell and MS. There was one where they gave a paitent chemo to kill off all the immune system then did a full bone marrow transplant. Not sure what the long term will be but one paitent did die so umm yeah.

I am in a clinical trial for a drug called FTY720 it's a once daily oral med which while not a cure beats the crap out of sticking needles in yourself on a regular basis.

It's also how I dealt with the health care cost. The bad news is I might be on the placebo and I don't get to see the MRI results for 2 years. However the good news is all my neuro visits are free, and so is the drug/sugar pill.

The status quo of health care is unacceptable even if the greedy Repubs believe it is in their interest.

Apple's Steve Job just got a new liver even though many others were probably in front of him in line. That's how the American health care for the rich is headed, just like the corrupt compensation system where the elite get paid for getting out of bed and showering in the morning while their public company's stock tanks.

" When the government gets hold of the health care industry there won't be nearly as many old people or terminally ill people sucking up the resources."

Must explain why most Europeans with that there government controlled health care have longer life spans, lower infant mortality, etc. etc.

You are either dishonest or just another talking point repeater.

Mark my words. When the government gets hold of the health care industry there won't be nearly as many old people or terminally ill people sucking up the resources. Abortion won't be choice it'll be mandatory.

~Waterboard

You are insane.

Just in case nobody's passed that info on to you yet.

Be Well.

Until millions of Americans get on the streets and demand equality, honesty and fair treatment just like the Iranians, we'll be pushed down into the gutters even further so the billionaires can have 10 homes and jets.

But the entertainment moguls who make billions while propagandizing most of us to waste our time watching their idiotic childish TV have pretty much manipulated America to their benefit.

Pirate,

I really like the ideas being tossed around about a government offered insurance plan. You still pay a premium, you still have co-pays and deductible but maybe the cost would be a bit less than the 800 that I have been quoted for a family plan with a 2500 deductable and a 20% coinsurance.

Washboard how much have you given to your friends and neighbors to help them with healthcare costs? The church has been the only help I have gotten and that was all of 500 for one treatment.

"Until millions of Americans get on the streets and demand equality, honesty and fair treatment just like the Iranians, we'll be pushed down into the gutters even further so the billionaires can have 10 homes and jets."

Living in Fort Lauderdale, I see the Mega Yachts every day. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against accumulating wealth but you would have to live here and see how many and how huge these vessels are. Most Americans have no conception of the amount of wealth that has been concentrated to provide luxury beyond the imaginations of even fairly sophisticated people.

RE: WATERBOARD's, "When the government gets hold of the health care industry there won't be nearly as many old people or terminally ill people sucking up the resources."

Almost sounds like he'd prefer it that way, also referencing that earlier tirade against people buying televisions...

And, 'when' the gov't gets hold of it?
Whaddya call Care and Caid?
The gov't HAS a hold of it, and frankly i think most politicos wish they didn't. Our whole political system seems bent on keeping it that way, hence the POTUS' difficulty in reforming healthcare in general. I'm not a fan of government-run anything, but if the government CAN pay an ER visit bill to change a picc line (which i see all the time!) then they can pay RN's or doctors to make house calls. It's less money that way. Period. That's the kind of system they have in France (for anyone who hasn't seen 'Sicko'), and yeah they're living longer. It's a fact.

When I was able to work, I had good highquality health ins eith at low or no cost. As a high ranking machinist there was enough money to pay the premiums if any.

Now that I am handicapped I rely on Medicare and a Medicare related Hmo insurance plan that is no cost to me. This is fortunate because as one might imagine, my costs are high. Medications last year before ins ran to $12,000. After ins they were cut cleanly in half. This is medications only and takes into no doctor or hospital bills. Without these expenses being paid, I would not be here because the pain would have made other options far more desirable!

If you lose your job, take such menial labor as is needed to pay for some kind of medical ins. There is an old and tired saying but it applies-'This can happen to you". May God forbid but it sure happened to me. Thankfully I worked and paid in a large amount each paycheck and with the help of Binder & Binder was able to get disability SS (SSD).

If you have worked for all of your life and are disabled, you may have found that applying for disability was a waste of time. True! They will simply not even take any serious interest in the efforts of a plain old citizen. You must hire and out of your back SSD pay for an attorney. Do not refuse and say that you can do it just as well. Truly you can but they will pay no attention to your application. My application with an attorney was denied. However I was told it would be and that on application for a revue, it was granted. It cost me $5,300.00 of the best money I have spent. I received two years of back pay and their fees were deducted and paid by SS. If applicable, take heart! It will happen but it will not be quickly.

"My application with an attorney was denied. However I was told it would be and that on application for a revue, it was granted. It cost me $5,300.00 of the best money I have spent."

I completely agree you made the correct choice but isn't it scandalous that the attorneys have such a comfortable "deal" that allows them to cut themselves in for a slice of your back disability pay. Make no mistake, this is a "deal" made between SS and the lawyers. I have a friend who's mother was diabled and, sure enough, she was turned down, got an attorney and she was approved. Virtually no claims are granted unless you cut an attorney in for a cut and jsut where is our "liberal media" on this scandal????

The tenor of the righties here is that folks who scrimp and don't go to movies can somehow manage to plunk down a hundred thou to a physician for a morning's work.

But why the hell should they, when if you're sick in civilized lands you go to a doctor or a hospital, get well , KEEP your house and money never enters the equation? herm

Danni,

That is not always true. I know 3 people that were approved without a lawyer. Two on the first app. One on review.

It depends on how badly you need it and how honest your local office is. I would be denied even with a lawer and our office is okay. An ex-nurse I know is on her 3rd review with a lawer and it's looking bad her office sucks. Might be the state too.

TAO, isn't the approval process managed through a state agency???
I'm not sure but I think it is, and in Florida I believe you have to have an attorney. At least I do know this, I have known several people applying and all were rejected and then later approved after they had an attorney. If that is 100% the way it works I don't know but I do know that they person I mentioned above, who's mother was applying was so completely disabled that I don't know how she managed to take care of her personal hygiene. Yet the state (I believe) still turned her down.

"The tenor of the righties here is that folks who scrimp and don't go to movies can somehow manage to plunk down a hundred thou to a physician for a morning's work."

If those lazy miscreants would just not go to 14,285 movies they could.

one lesser-known provisions in the federal stimulus bill - the Cobra extension.

Under the terms of the stimulus bill, recently laid-off workers get a discount on their continuing employer-sponsored health-care coverage, known as Cobra. Instead of paying the whole premium which can easily exceed $1,000 per month workers pay only 35%. The sticking point for their former employers is that they have to pay the remaining 65%, for up to nine months

#23 | Posted by danni

How true but as we both know, it's the only game in town.

TAO, isn't the approval process managed through a state agency???

#26 | Posted by danni

danni-Believe it or not, the entire process is done by the SS people both on line and in the mail. Yep a federal agency is in the pockets of attorneys and that sucks in a big way.

Additional info, one the attorney angle. Use only an attorney that specializes in this kind of work and not a family friend. He/She will get nowhere. There is a very structured way in which things are done and without the knowledge of this structure you will get nowhere. I do hate it but I recommend the one that advertises constantly and is biggest and that is Binder & Binder. They have it down to a science. They will tell you step by step just what to expect. This includes just when you will be denied or accepted. Sick isn't it?

Add 1-I forgot one of the most important features! There should be no charge unless you are approved. In this way the attorney is paid out of your money before you even see it. No one can get in trouble from failure to pay but it is worth it for the monthly check.

Maybe for some, but not for my children. Not for my family. Now here is where someone chimes in with, "Oh you have yours and F--k everyone else right?" To that person I ask if they have kids? I ask if they've gone through a life threatening illness?

People there is a reason why doctors and hospitals are actively fighting the President on this subject and its not just about money. Its because they know what they are talking about and they know their business (yes sorry, to an extent its a business). There is a reason America has the best doctors and best hospitals. We may not have the best system, but we have the best docs, hospitals and meds. President Obama, for all his promise and hope and skill is only going to hurt that. In this area, he should be stopped.

You should apologize to men for having any association with Neil Bortz. He's a girly-boy wannabe Nazi. I'd slap him hard enough to make him bleed from the ears and spit on his girly boy arse.

Good post GREENDAD.. well said.

"People there is a reason why doctors and hospitals are actively fighting the President on this subject and its not just about money."

There are thousands of doctors who will tell you, in a polite way, that you are full of shit. The AMA represents approximatel 25% of doctors.

"We may not have the best system, but we have the best docs, hospitals and meds."

YOu can pretend that is a fact but there is absolutely no reason to believe that the US has the best doctors in the world, yes we have some great doctors but so do many other countries. Same for hospitals and every other aspect of medical care.
Nationalistic bragging is the tool of the right to frighten Americans into fearing the loss of quality but it is based on nothing.

"This includes just when you will be denied or accepted. Sick isn't it?"

Yes. Fortunately when my girl friend's mom needed to get approved for disability my ignorance about the topic paid off. I just looked in the phone book for them, found a big ad for a law firm that specialized in SS Disability and they took it from there.

health care consumers do not make rational choices about what care is superfluous when it comes to costs.
If there are financial barriers, patients reduce all care - both necessary and unecessary.

btw, rationing is nothing new . . . my Mom rationed our family's health care til we kids left home

the health insurance issue IS an interesting dilema tho . . .

a) everyone wants FREE healthcare . . . there is no such thing as FREE
b) we look to government for a solution . . . but gvt bureaucracy = inefficiency

whatever they come up with will prolly be a fuster-cluck but will eventually seem OK as memories fade - -
just as the US Post Office was OK when it was the only game in town

my criteria for supporting any proposed plan:
all federal & state lawmakers & employees, the UAW & Teamsters must have the same plan as everybody else

btw II, the UAW accepted taxpayer bailout money $$ - -
why aren't union boss salaries & bonuses being adjusted??
why aren't UAW assets such as the UAW $33million resort sold off??
why no Czar to set limits on UAW benefits
why no gvt committee to roll back dues??

you can pretend that is a fact but there is absolutely no reason to believe that the US has the best doctors in the world, . . .
#35 | Posted by danni

btw, the reason ya often need a translator to understand your doctor is precisely what you have pooh-poohed above - - - the best & brightest migrate to the USA

There are thousands of doctors who will tell you, in a polite way, that you are full of shit. The AMA represents approximatel 25% of doctors.

#35 | Posted by danni

Unions represent less that 10% of workers yet they have a LARGE voice in this administration.

BTW the AMA represents over 30% of Doctors.

Rationing is already here. I have torn up my knees through sports and have had surgery on both of them over the years. Each scan, ray and procedure needed to be thoroughly approved by the insurance company before the doctors could do anything.

This is rationing through profit margins.

"a) everyone wants FREE healthcare . . . there is no such thing as FREE
b) we look to government for a solution . . . but gvt bureaucracy = inefficiency"

Baloney. Most people expect to pay for health care but they resent the insurance companies for trying to pretend that they have a God given right to a percentage of what we pay. We all know more efficient methods exist to provide health care yet we are forced to combat lobbyists with pockets full of cash to get the attention of our own Congress. Virtually no one believes health isurance companies are the best way to distribute health care but money, money, money is there to be made so what is good for us takes a back seat.
Medicare has already proven to be far more efficient than health insurance with administrative costs far less than insurance companies yet we still read here the disproven talking point that government = inefficiency. The truth is so obvious that insurance companies profit from inefficiency.

Greendad,

I am a dad, I am a dad with a chronic life long expensive illness.

I am also one of those who will work until I am literally unable to get into the office and am already working on a way I could work from home for them so even when I can't get into the office I will be able to continue working till it gets so bad I can't use a computer.

The problem with our current system is the cracks. I don't know that throwing the whole thing out makes sense but we have to fill the cracks. Once again when your hit with something like MS when your young you don't have the savings to deal with it. I spend roughly 10k a year between premiums and expenses. Since then saving for retirement is out the window, saving for college for the kids is out the window. Right now I am just fighting to avoid foreclosure and or bankruptcy.

Is that right? Is that ok in your world? Everyone says no but whenever ideas are thrown out they are immediately branded as socialist and threats of 60's era VA is thrown out. Well then what do you suggest? What is the answer? Just tell folks like me tough luck and my kids future yeah who needs college.

Seriously you say what has been proposed is bad and you accept that a 34 year old dad shouldn't have to piss away his retirement and kids future and possibly his house because he had the bad luck to get MS but you offer no options.

The fact is I need choices not rhetoric.

#41 | Posted by danni

"Virtually no one believes health isurance companies are the best way to distribute health care but money, money, money is there to be made so what is good for us takes a back seat".

Virtually? Are you shitting me, nice of you to speak for the masses as you usually do.

"Medicare has already proven to be far more efficient than health insurance with administrative costs far less than insurance companies yet we still read here the disproven talking point that government = inefficiency. The truth is so obvious that insurance companies profit from inefficiency".

Medicare is going broke because of inefficiency, so let's put everyone on it.

Thanks for your input commarade danni

#42 | Posted by TaoWarrior

I am sorry for your illness and hope and pray you get the treatment you require. But to think a gov health plan will solve this?

Chickenrancher,

I don't know if a gov. health plan will solve it. It sure as heck can't make my situation worse. I think thats one of the issues that people who are relativly healthy forget. Spend 10k a year on health care when you make 40k a year and see what you think.

As far as medicare going broke sure when you let the insurance companies make money off the healthy but when they get sick shove them on medicare what do you expect it to make a profit?

I don't really expect a single payer system although I do not concede that it would be a bad thing, however like I told Pirate maybe a public insurance plan complete with premiums and co-pays would not be such a bad thing.

But why the hell should they, when if you're sick in civilized lands you go to a doctor or a hospital, get well , KEEP your house and money never enters the equation? herm

#24 | Posted by herm at 2009

sounds good...now WAKE UP and come back to reality

ALSO isnt what you are talking about 'something for nothing'
a wise old man once said

there is no such thing as a free lunch

DEMS all weekend on shows have been screaming about how great competiion is.
THE GOVERNMENT WONT HAVE Competion...and I cant wait for these SAME dickheads to get on these shows when the issue of school vouvhers comes up

I am betting less than even money that competiont will then somehow not be all that great.

"Seriously you say what has been proposed is bad and you accept that a 34 year old dad shouldn't have to piss away his retirement and kids future and possibly his house because he had the bad luck to get MS but you offer no options."

I offer no solution because for myself and for many millions of Americans, the system isn't broken. I'm sorry for your situation, but if we revamped every aspect of society turning complete control over to the government because of a few hardluck stories then yes this country would be wrecked. You may think this sounds heartless, but for college your kids can take out loans. Almost everyone does, my kids will too.

By the way to Danni who seemed to disagree that we don't have the best doctors and hospitals, I say you are completely off your rocker. There are absolutely no better medical schools than the ones in America, and they create far better docs than you would see anywhere else in the world.

"I offer no solution because for myself and for many millions of Americans, the system isn't broken. I'm sorry for your situation, but if we revamped every aspect of society turning complete control over to the government because of a few hardluck stories then yes this country would be wrecked. "

Wow Green, you basically repeated the same argument used in in Europe by people who allowed the Holocaust to occur. And it is not a few hard luck stories as you put it but many people who suffer financially and physically through stress due to lack of medical care. It's more than that medical coverage is most critical for the youth as they will be the producers of society paying taxes to run society while assholes like you are in retirement. Sick kids translates to non-productive adults overtime.

A society best serves itself by investing in its people.

And asshole, you are healthy now but one little car accident, not even of your fault,can put you out of work. Sure you have medical insurance but unless it is gold level you can get dropped over time. And of course there are those lovely co-pays for all medicine and procedures. Also who is going to pay for your kids' education and their health insurance once yours stops paying?

Shit, who is going to pay for your health care if you lose your job before the accident?

You talk like a typical dumb fuck who's life is okay now, with a 20year mortgage with no clue how you would make payment after two months if you lost your job. A plough horse with blinders on.

I offer no solution because I only think of myself
#48 | Posted by GreenDad

Wait a min. guys Greendad has a point. You can't screw up the whole system that does work for some people just because of a few cases and yes that few is millions but percent wise it's not that many.

What I have been supporting all along is not a single payer system but an offering of government sponsered health insurance. Much like expanding medicare. I don't want to throw out the whole system however I do want to see the cracks patched. Heck I felt that way 5 years ago before I had MS.

"Wow Green, you basically repeated the same argument used in in Europe by people who allowed the Holocaust to occur."

Did you just call me a Nazi sympathizer because I don't want the Health Care industry wrecked for the vast majority of paying Americans who are getting the care they need?

"I offer no solution because I only think of myself
#48 | Posted by GreenDad

#50 | POSTED BY RASTANINJA"

LOL... see my #32 you predictable clown

paying Americans who are getting the care they need?

First, "paying Americans" are paying far too much for health insurance.

Second, even those who are supposedly covered are being denied.

Spud sees this argument as basically turning into two distince schools of thought.

One that believes that America cannot afford to fix healthcare and cover those millions of uninsured folks and the other is those who think America can't afford not to.

Spud's in the latter camp.

Be Well.

"Did you just call me a Nazi sympathizer because I don't want the Health Care industry wrecked for the vast majority of paying Americans who are getting the care they need?

#52 | Posted by GreenDad "

No douchebag I said you use the same exact excuse to let the sick uninsured suffer as much of europe did turning a blind eye to the Holocaust.

Basically you are a scared little sheep who prays to get your little bit by going along with the flow with realizing how precarious your own situation really is.

"Spud sees this argument as basically turning into two distince schools of thought."

I don't find myself in either. I find myself in the group that that thinks you shouldn't destroy a system that covers 250 million people (Contrary to what that moron Rastaninja thinks, I'm not just thinking of myself, I'm thinking of a hell of a lot more people than he/she is).

Doctors are already starting to scale back how many patients on Medicare and Medicaid they accept, and the AMA says they won't support a public plan.

What good is having insurance if no doctor will see you?

uh huh, whatever Furio. I get your line of attack. Call someone a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer to try and chase them away. Sorry not going to work, jerk.

I don't find myself in either. I find myself in the group that that thinks you shouldn't destroy a system that covers 250 million people

The system as it exists today is already destroying itself.

Nobody is talking about destroying the system merely broadening it to include those not covered and using legislation to stop the bullshit profit maximising tactics currently in play that deny treatment to the already insured.

Doctors are already starting to scale back how many patients on Medicare and Medicaid they accept, and the AMA says they won't support a public plan.

Fuck wot the AMA wants.
Fuck wot the HMO's want.

It's about wot the people need not wot they want.

What good is having insurance if no doctor will see you?

More patients certainly will mean a need for more doctors and if American doctors won't take up the challenge bring in a shiatload of other doctors from other places who will.

Spud doesn't imagine it will come to that, of course, but it is an option.

Be Well.

"Call someone a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer to try and chase them away. "

GreenDouche, you stupid fuck. Being a complacent sheep does not equate to a nazi sympathizer. you are so fucking clueless. youprobably don't even have a clue what the definition of "nazi sympathizer" even means. I douby you have put much thought into anything in your life except slogging along month after month in your life.

Greendad ultimatly the problem comes down to what causes the sky rocketing inflation in the cost of health care. 10 years ago I was paying 250 a month for a plan that had a 500 anual deductable. Now I am paying 420 a month for a plan with a 5450 anual deductable.

Both plans were paid 50% by the employer and my MS was not a factor in either rate.

So why am I paying nearly 2x for 1/10 the coverage? My pay has not gone up by a factor of 20 in 10 years. Tell me what else are you aware of that cost $1 10 years ago and cost $20 today? Has care gotten 20x better? Nope. Care 10 years ago was pretty darn good.

Here is another factor I don't understand. 5 years ago I had my first MRI, it cost 500 bucks last year my MRI cost 1400. Both were done in the same room with the same machine so the equipment cost was the same, in fact if you think about it the equipment should have been paid for by now so that raises even more questons. And of course the final question it raises is if my insurance cost is 20x why is the actual product only 3x the cost?

Furio, just admit it. Nazi Germany, the Holocaust, WWII have nothing to do with this conversation. I just happen to disagree with you, and you aren't enough of a grown up to have a debate so you just launched right into Nazi attacks.

Are you familiar with Godwin's Law?

tao I agree with you that costs need to come down. I liked Obama's plans to start getting everything digital to improve efficiency and maybe even more importantly cut down on mistakes.

I wish Obama would look into tort reform. A big problem in medicine is Cover Your Ass tactics by doctors to make sure they aren't sued, or aren't found liable when they are sued. Did you know that a pediatrician can be sued for anything over the course of 18 years of a child patient? But he said in his speech to the AMA he wouldn't do anything about this. That's bad. Add onto that his plans to cut payments to Medicaid and Medicare and I just don't see doctors buying into his ideas and then it will crumble.

In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017. - Keehan, S. et al. "Health Spending Projections Through 2017, Health Affairs Web Exclusive W146: 21 February 2008.

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. - Pear, R., "U.S. Health Care Spending Reaches All-Time High: 15% of GDP." The New York Times, 9 January 2004.

"Fuck wot the AMA wants"

Well they're a fairly large percentage of the American doctor community and since they would be the ones seeing the patients with this insurance, I think someone should listen to what they're saying.

"More patients certainly will mean a need for more doctors and if American doctors won't take up the challenge bring in a shiatload of other doctors from other places who will."

So your solution to the problems that doctors and hospitals will have with this system is to just import boatloads of foreign doctors? Let's put aside that I'm pretty sure their training in foreign med schools and training in foreign hospitals wouldn't count for our licensing system, what about the hundreds of thousands of doctors currently employed by the nations hospitals?

"Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France"

Those country's populations are fractions of ours.

And every time there is a heat wave in France 65% of their elderly citizens die... I don't want that lol.

Are there any countries with comparable populations to ours that have a successful public socialized healthcare system?

Greendad, I am comparing GDP ours is much bigger than Germany et. all

Interesting to note that employer spending on insurance has gone up at a rate of 2x inflation.

I know the company I work for has been forced to choose between cutting benifits or raising our contribution. Since we had a pay freeze they chose cutting benfits. They have been planing on adding LTD for a long time but the raise in cost have kept them from doing it. Which means that I have to keep working no matter what since my finances can not tolerate 2 years of no income about the time SS kicks in. If health care cost would remain stable for a year or two I could have LTD and that would be a major load off.

Ya know if insurance companies were smart they would do just that. When national health care is on the table raising rates at 2x inflation is just a bad plan. People would quit caring if they were not hit anualy with a huge increase.

Dead potato. Look at some facts.

BTW deth, if it weren't for the United States there would be no Canada.

Where would Canada be w/o the United States?

A fuck of a lot closer to Mexico.

Thanx fer that, btw.

Numbers from the libertarian Cato Institute?

As a libertarian organisation (ostensibly) they would naturally resist any attempts to see government take over the horrifically mismanaged health care industry so Spud takes those numbers with a grain of salt.

Be Well.

Staying ignorant helps keep it feeling good. Right, deadpotato?

There are numerous referneces for any part of the analysis available for you to fact check.

But, like your heathen brethern you prefer the facts you get from blogs.

Oh Canada, oh Canada you must be boring as shit.

What's up deadpotato, your Canadian bretheren ostricize you?

I can understand why.

Come on mrknowitall dead potato. Refute the report or stfu.

But the entertainment moguls who make billions while propagandizing most of us to waste our time watching their idiotic childish TV have pretty much manipulated America to their benefit.

#18 | POSTED BY ROBSON

Excellent post! I'll say it again, excellent post!

Come on mrknowitall dead potato. Refute the report or stfu.

Yer single link from an institute with a vested interest in smaller government?

K.

"America has the best doctors and best hospitals." America doesn't. We rank 38th, near the bottom. That came from the pul[pit this morning. The reason: Greed has replaced human feelings. herm

Washboard,

What is your objection to a government sponsered program? Not central control but an offering like any insurance company has just run by the government not for profit?

I would be perfectly willing to pay my current premiums to the government in exchange for an HMO like plan. Personaly I would jump on it and would be willing to pay co-pays etc for dr. vists. The doc would still make a good living off me say a 25 co-pay for a PCP visit even if the gov only reimbursed them 25 they would only loose out on 25. Then throw in a clause about malpractice suits for gov paitents that would cut dr. who accepted govcare would have lower insurance cost which would make up some of the loss. Yes plenty of Doc's would not accept and I would have tight choices but I already have that, if it gets a bit worse I will live.

How would that hurt healthy rich people?

"Furio, just admit it. Nazi Germany, the Holocaust, WWII have nothing to do with this conversation. I just happen to disagree with you, and you aren't enough of a grown up to have a debate so you just launched right into Nazi attacks.

Are you familiar with Godwin's Law?

#61 | Posted by GreenDad "

No, dumbshit the sheep behavior that will rationalize turning a blind eye to anyone else's sufferring does. fucking sheep.

what happens when you lose your job for two months, sheep?

""Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France"

Those country's populations are fractions of ours.

And every time there is a heat wave in France 65% of their elderly citizens die... I don't want that lol.

Are there any countries with comparable populations to ours that have a successful public socialized healthcare system?

#65 | Posted by GreenDad"

fucktard those are percentage of spending. That's called "proportional". They didn't teach this to you in comunity college?
Oh wow mentioned heat wave deaths which similarly occur in the US. Well asshole how do you explain the higher life expectancy in france?

fucktard those are ...
No, dumbshit ...
Well asshole how do you explain the higher life expectancy in france?

How do you explain your inability to engage in a reasonable debate without childish name calling? Probably the same way every other child does: Insecurity. LOL

Name calling is always the last resort of a loser in a losing argument. I'm sure greendad appreciates your admission of defeat.

there are many doctors who will barter with people - i know of a family who's daughter needed tubes put into her ears and they could not afford it and didn't qualify for any free programs - they do landscaping, so the doctor performed surgery on the daughter (twice) and they did the landscaping for his new office. this agreement is for a civilized people only.

""America has the best doctors and best hospitals." America doesn't. We rank 38th, near the bottomf"

I think that 38th number refers to America's healthcare system, I was specifically talking about our doctors. You'll never hear me say that our system is the best in the world. Hell, how could it be when others just give it away for free (sort of).

The problem with our system is a lot of people can't get to the care, but for those that can, and yes more can than can't it is the best in the world. And that's because our doctors and hospitals are the best.

"No, dumbshit the sheep behavior that will rationalize turning a blind eye to anyone else's sufferring does. fucking sheep."

You are just a clich slinging clown. Done with you. Go have fun calling someone else a Nazi just because you have nothing else to offer.

You wonder if the liberal media is truthful, here is proof, they skew the facts, nxt time some idiot liberal spouts polls or facts, better take those so called facts from any liberal news media source as. not so factual..

I think that 38th number refers to America's healthcare system, I was specifically talking about our doctors.

How foolish for them to believe that the doctors are part of the healthcare system.

this agreement is for a civilized people only.

Please explain that.

""Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France"

Those country's populations are fractions of ours.

And their GDP are fractions of ours as well. So it all balances out.

That is why they measure things based on a % of GDP, because populations and GDP's vary from nation to nation.

What is your objection to a government sponsered program? Not central control but an offering like any insurance company has just run by the government not for profit?

The corporate apologists are afraid that the government will provide the same or better service for lower cost since there would be no profit motive.

How foolish for them to believe that the doctors are part of the healthcare system.

Danni should come along any time now and slap you around with the fact that it's insurance companies that are dragging down our healthcare system.

Some of you idiots just rant on for no reason apparently other than to cry like pussies about how unfair everything is for you.

There has to be a hero in this system somewhere (other than Obama) which points to some sort of utopian solution for you crazy bastards.

now apparently the doctors along with the insurance companies that need to go.

fuck, let's get rid of the hospitals, nurses and plasma while were at it.

LOL

In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017. - Keehan, S. et al. "Health Spending Projections Through 2017, Health Affairs Web Exclusive W146: 21 February 2008.

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. - Pear, R., "U.S. Health Care Spending Reaches All-Time High: 15% of GDP." The New York Times, 9 January 2004.

I am all for addressing this problem from this perspective. So lets do it.....

Are the proponents of some sort of national healthcare want this percentage to go down to around 10% to 12%?

Is there some sort of solution proposed that suggests or promises that through some sort of reform that we can lower our spending down this much?

What we seem to forget is that our population is aging in general. (The baby boomers .. hello). The fact that the amount we spend on healthcare should be no big surprise. Folks treat it as if its a big surprise. As we age and live longer, were going to need/demand more healthcare. This is putting preasure on the system to become more affordable. What we need is to force everyone to purchase a policy that covers "catestrophic healthcare needs". For the truely poor individual .. we already have a system.. its called welfare/medicaid and the government already runs it. Payment is poor and many many physicians opt out for many reasons not the least of which is the pay stinks and barely covers costs. For the elderly we already have a program .. its called Medicare and while the pay is better ~80% of standard insurance pay.. pay is dictated and the program is going broke. Medicare pay is tied to what is called " the sustainable growth rate formula". For the past n years this formula has indicated a cut to providers must be made.. each and every time these cut have been headed off by congress because they realize that providers will have no choice but to drop out of medicare like many have done with medicaid. Too many folks think its governments job to control the healthcare market. (prices in general). Democrats in particular think its the governments job to compete directly with private insurers. I disagree. The governements job should be to oversee the various entities and prevent monopolies .. collusion, etc .. that drive up costs. They should also force standards upon the industry that bring about greater efficiency but at the same time allow the market to decide winners and loosers. What were headed for is yet another entitlement system whereby the governement controls/sets the price. If this occurs, pray your physician can continue to make a resonable living or these talented folks will move on to other professions and or retire early making the situation even worse.

Mrokb,

The interesting thing about your argument of an aging population being the reason for a rise in cost is legitimate. However the average age in the countries that spend 6% less of their GDP on health care than us is actualy older. So while it is a valid reason for the increase it is not the sole reason for our cost diferential with them.

Eberly,

One thing I have run into is that our per paitent administration cost is 4x higher than the countries I cited. I do not know if that is the only reason for the higher cost or not but it is certainly a factor. More and more I see the administration cost as ways insurance companies can deny claims. The more levels they put in the more likly for people to give up on trying to get legitimate claims approved. So right there we could cut cost and still raise quality of service.

there are many doctors who will barter with people - i know of a family who's daughter needed tubes put into her ears and they could not afford it and didn't qualify for any free programs - they do landscaping, so the doctor performed surgery on the daughter (twice) and they did the landscaping for his new office. this agreement is for a civilized people only.

My grandfather was such a doctor. He often performed his services in return for fresh eggs and tomatoes, a ham, domestic services and repairs around his house or on his car. I have his ledgers and my grandmother did the bookkeepng. It is fascinating to look at.

TAOWARRIOR,
I concur .. its not the only reason but it definitely is part of the reason. I would be curious to know the exact demographic breakdown for some of these other countries. Particularly broken down into the following age groups: (0-18) (19-24) (25-64) and 65+

Administrative cost wise .. Lets not forget Insurance companies have a profit motive even though their main stated goal is to provide benefits/"economies of scale" to purchasers of healthcare. I would argue that they have been a total failure in some situations. What's really sad is they have been allowed to combine together over and over until they have become huge .. all with the promise of delivering better services and better cost control. Out of all of the insurance company consolidation . . can any one out there point to their policy premiums going down due to these mergers? Good luck finding such a case.. if benefits were noticed .. they were passed along mostly to share holders and CEOs not to providers or beneficiaries.

I don't feel like paying for someone's health care that has chosen, booze, babes, bikes, new cars, big houses, plasma tv's, yep that's plural, in lieu of a health policy or a rainy day savings plan.

#3 | Posted by Washboard

You forgot those people who can't afford health care but can spend their time blogging instead of working. Can afford an ISP but won't give food to their kids before school or for lunches.

Your a smart one Petrous

No worries that by combining phone and internet through the Magic Jack and Cable modem. I spend less now than I used to spend just for basic phone service.

No worries that this happens to be the slow season seeing as I sell fireplaces and it was 96 yesterday.

No worries that talk out your ass is fun but actualy addressing the issues well thats hard werk.

Goat and Nanc,

I have read about such things. Maybe next time I'll ask my Dr. if his fireplace needs repairs his computer needs fixing or he has a party that could use a bartender.

Beyond that I have no land so I can't really offer up food and why would he really want 40-80lbs of bacon anyway.

there are many doctors who will barter with people - i know of a family who's daughter needed tubes put into her ears and they could not afford it and didn't qualify for any free programs - they do landscaping, so the doctor performed surgery on the daughter (twice) and they did the landscaping for his new office. this agreement is for a civilized people only.

#77 | Posted by nanc

This isn't 1836. My doctor is Indian and wants cash.

#93

My grandfather died in the '70s so it was a different age. However, my FB is a midwife and she offers a lot of her services in return for other services and goods. E.G., she has some beautiful cabinets from a skilled cabinet maker in trade for delivering his wife's baby.

Oh I know barter still happens goat.

I am bartering a gas valve replacement for a haircut and 25 bucks later this week.

FB = Fat Broad

FB = Fat Broad

I see you've met her.

best story so far of the tragedy that could be coming our way

from mark styne

woman named glenda living in edmonton was having twins and when the time came there were no beds available
they told her to call 1-8000bc bed and she ended up having to fly to another province

is THIS bullshit what you people are wanting?

AND GEORGE WILL kills on this over the weekend

when he adds up all of the people who could have care but dont, it comes out to the lower figure thats repubs have said over the weekend

over a trillion to take care of 16 million at 62K per person...

nonsense....

I have read about such things [bartering]. Maybe next time I'll ask my Dr. if his fireplace needs repairs his computer needs fixing or he has a party that could use a bartender.

Beyond that I have no land so I can't really offer up food and why would he really want 40-80lbs of bacon anyway.

#93 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2009-06-22 01:41 PM

Bartering has gone on since the beginning of mankind. Blankets and cooking pans were traded to the Indians by the mountain men in exchange for pelts and fur.

But trading a few cans of preserves for your services only goes so far. Try bartering to pay off the bills to your electric company, your phone company, your home and car insurance premiums and see how far you get.

Of course with centralized rationing, no one excluded will have recourse to another resource. And do you want to bet there are special exemptions for politicians and others. After all, they really really count.

The California experiment will be fascinating to watch. What's going to happen to health care there if the feds don't step in? And remember that when the fed cupboard is bare, there is nowhere else to go.

Now what procedures will be excluded? What medications will be excluded? Don't you think that those voting on a program should have a reasonable idea of what they're getting and not be required to accept a pig in a poke?

The devil is in the details and it might just provide some transparency if the probable program details were out in the open.

You folks should remember that the libs generally support euthanasia and abortion, the termination of human life for "values" that are off the rating scale for many people. And in some countries with centralized care, people can disqualify themselves with life style, too fat, whatever.

Many of the more avid proponents of this system, particularly the elderly, are unaware that their treatments are the most likely to be curtailed. They have been deceived to think that this proposal is for an expansion of health care.

But you can't underestimate the intelligence of the American people. Yesterday I went into a store, bought a 71 cent item, and handed the clerk $1.01. He returned the penny assuring me that the $1.00 would cover the purchase. This is the level of intelligence of the informed American voter. Parenthetically, I asked him to enter the $1.01 in the machine, and he was surpirsed that I was due 30 cents change.

Lawrence O'Donnell said the Democrats are scared shitless at this point in time. The CBO has indicated that health care reform will cost $1.5-2 trillion.

They are suddenly concerned as the Rethuglicans pound away doing their best to shift blame. Yet, neither party bated an eye as Shrub redistributed $3 trillion for a war that has only hurt us or as $13 trillion in liabilities were siphoned from taxpayers into the corrupt pockets of Washington's largest contributors. The commercial Real Estate Market is on the verge of collapse. The derivatives market harbors $684 trillion in undefined liabilities.

There seems to be no hesitation to cough up the money for doing the WRONG thing (for human beings), yet endless argument over doing the right thing (for human beings). This can only happen because the people in charge have created a seperate unequal compensation system for themselves. Our Government requires every company that provides health insurance to provide the same care to their CEO as their mailroom clerk. Yet they exempted themselves from this requirement. Without that priviledge these ridiculous disparities wouldn't last five minutes.

Gosh, Nutcase rails against the hierarchal structure that characterizes human organizations, and most other mammalian groups ranging from lions to cervines to primates. Join King Canute.

Krishnamurti observed that the same dynamics are operative, only the players in different roles change. It was the same when there were emperors and kings to the days of Comrade Stalin and Comrade Mao.

Maybe Johnson and Afkababble could opt out of health care when it arrives. Johnson needs to know that his anecdote about the penny change has been related before, without blaming Demos. herm

Washboard,

What is your objection to a government sponsered program? Not central control but an offering like any insurance company has just run by the government not for profit?

(Well let's see. When the government gets into the insurance business and goes broke they won't go out of business, they'll just increase taxes and further erode/destroy the free enterprises that already existed until there is no competition. I think a little further down the road than "What can the government give me today". Think 2 years down the road, 5 years, 10 years etc.
If you're into a super race and human culling go ahead and support a government sponsored insurance program that will in time ultimately control health care, but don't bitch and moan when it doesn't turn out as you dreamed and you or your family are affected.

We already have programs for the indigent and the elderly. How are they working out?

Hitler would be proud of many current leaders today.0

#73 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2009-06-21 10:51 PM

The difference in the USA between a comfortable life with proper health care, a house, financial and retirement security ..... and BANKRUPTCY is based solely upon luck.

When a serious debilitating illness strikes from out of the blue, the next event to occur is the loss of job, then loss of health care coverage, then loss of income, then housing foreclosure, then bankruptcy often from credit cards used for expenses and health care.

This awful gremlin is there lurking for all Americans except those in cushy secure government jobs (such as Congress) or others with independent wealth. This fact reduces the urgency of our Congress to fix this.

We must provide a system that gives financial and health security for those who are hit by the tragedy of these multiple whammies.

The difference in the USA between a comfortable life with proper health care, a house, financial and retirement security ..... and BANKRUPTCY is based solely upon luck.

When a serious debilitating illness strikes from out of the blue, the next event to occur is the loss of job, then loss of health care coverage, then loss of income, then housing foreclosure, then bankruptcy often from credit cards used for expenses and health care.

bad luck can strike anyone at anytime. I completely understand that.

However, a very comprehensive disability policy can help tremendously in these situations.

Eb,

Yes, if you can afford a disability policy after paying your health insurance premiums.

Washboard,

Seriously, dude, chill out. I lay out a plan and you come back at me with Hitler, Euthanasia, and death of free enterprise.

So your thoughts on it amount to no more than rhetoric. At least I learned something about you if not the health care issues today.