Good post, Corky. I tend to see Obama in a light similar to the one that shines of FDR's legacy, in the sense that while the GOPiggies railed against "that man" as bringing about the dissolution of capitalism it was, in fact, FDR who went a long way toward giving it some more life. Yes, the country underwent change as a result of the programs initiated during his time in office. But he could just as well have moved America much farther in a direction well away from capitalism. And he didn't. Rules? Yes. Regulations? Yes. Oversight? Yes. Government intervention to try and resuscitate a wrecked system after more than a decade of Republican mismanagement and kow-towing to the fiction of a "free market"? Certainly. It's not a case of "history proves" or "history shows" or "it's the same," but the parallels are indeed striking.

All the partisan hand-wringing about socialism is just that, GOP fearmongering. When the Cold War was over, the GOP was really nervous about what they could scare the BeJesus out of the voters with, then Bush decided to preemptive invade a country and take us into war which solved that problem.

Now, it's creeping US socialism that is the big bad bogeyman, designed to thwart the popular efforts at health care for all by this administration, a proposition that has the support of 70 percent of Americans.

Doc, I agree with you, but there's a NYT article out that rails about how Obama is no FDR because his programs are not fundemental change.

I guess if people are sniping at him from both sides, he's likely in the middle.

I guess if people are sniping at him from both sides, he's likely in the middle.
#3 | Posted by Corky

Which is only necessarily a good thing if you're main concern is preserving your incumbency.

Here's the article, let me know what you think.

Corky - Obama strikes me as a conciliator. Sometimes that works out just fine. Other times it really pisses off one side. And sometimes it heats up the rhetoric and reaction on more than one side. He's definitely not the firebrand portrayed by those on the fringes of American political life. There are times I wish he'd take more dramatic action, although my guess is he's more of a consensus builder. He is, after all, a politician. And a hell of an improvement over his predecessor and heads above anything his opponents have on offer.

HB

It's a good thing if you want to pass any legislation. I take the hint that people like Bill Maher have been giving that Obama should just count on his Congressional majority , damn the torpedoes, fulll speed ahead, but I think he knows that he has a better chance of passing something if it is centrist.

However, I heard Tom Daschle say yesterday that we may have to take what we have gotten and give up on a public health care option (for example).

My question is, what is it we have gotten?

They may sacrifice the public option, but if they don't have a real good reason and real good concessions from industry, which I don't think they have..... I'll go back to supporting Hil for President again, lmao!

#6 | well said

"Here's the article, let me know what you think."

Seems like he's unwilling to take a stand, or doesn't fully appreciate the need to do so. Since I don't take him for an idiot, I have to assume its the former.

"Obama strikes me as a conciliator."

You know what? In my real life, I'm a conciliatory person. Most of the time I'm left feeling that the only thing I've accomplished is massaging my own ego. I hope Obama does a better job than that.

And saying that he's at least better than his predecessor is a piss poor standard to hold him to, especially in these times, and with that predecessor.

You know what? In my real life, I'm a conciliatory person. Most of the time I'm left feeling that the only thing I've accomplished is massaging my own ego.

Me too and me too.

Michael: Damn it. You know, I'm a saint, you know. I'm a living saint and I get absolutely nothing out of it.

Lindsay: Well, you get a false feeling of superiority.

Michael: Yeah, no, that is nice, but this time, it's not enough.

Arrested Development

"And saying that he's at least better than his predecessor is a piss poor standard to hold him to, especially in these times, and with that predecessor."

Not necessarily. I like the idea of an improvement, as opposed to the alternatives. How much of an improvement will he turn out to be? We'll have to travel farther along the road to discover the answer to that one.

Lindsay: Well, you get a false feeling of superiority.

Michael: Yeah, no, that is nice, but this time, it's not enough.

LOL... that about sums it up. Almost makes me want to check the show out. Almost.

We'll have to travel farther along the road to discover the answer to that one.
#11 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

How long do we have to wait before it's appropriate to make that judgment? Please don't tell me its a question for the historians.

Hag,
One of the best shows ever made. I cannot recommend it enough. Seriously. Pro-Bush people will hate it however.

Hagbard, since "conciliator" doesn't sit well, care to address the "consensus builder" descriptor?

How much further down the road? I would say 2010 for short-term gain/damage and 2012 for long term.

"How long do we have to wait before it's appropriate to make that judgment?"

Purely an individual decision.

-How long do we have to wait before it's appropriate to make that judgment?

How about more than 6 months?

Not necessarily. I like the idea of an improvement, as opposed to the alternatives. How much of an improvement will he turn out to be? We'll have to travel farther along the road to discover the answer to that one.

Do you really have a blog if every entry after the headline simply said "But Dubya..."

(Oh, I stand corrected...he also includes a "But Palin...")

Hagbard, since "conciliator" doesn't sit well, care to address the "consensus builder" descriptor?
#15 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

*shrugs

Like waiting to fill a five gallon bucket from a dripping faucet while your cat is on fire screaming its way through your house.

I don't know, if what's needed now is decisive action, consensus building, if that's what he's doing, seems more like capitulation, undermining the purpose of his efforts.

I just don't know. I'm not thrilled. I'm not happy. I'm having a hard time remaining optimistic.

You don't know how badly I want to be happy that he's our president. Damn.

You don't know how badly I want to be happy that he's our president.

I stopped at 12:00pm EST on Jan 20, 2009. That was when promise became obligation and our duty became to hold him to it.

Patience, HB. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I'm having the same misgivings, particularly on health care, that he is being overly consolatory.

But he may be taking half a loaf as better than none, as Blue DOgs Dems aren't going to be willing to sacrifice their seats the way some had to for Bubba.

(That's my allotment of cliched old sayings for the day, btw)

became to hold him to it.

In a reasonable and timely fashion.

Well, I suppose every step away from something really brings you closer to it from the other direction.

"Have you heard that the United States is headed toward socialism? Jonah Goldberg says it is."

The first sentence shows this guy is writing spin.....

Here's the article about Daschle selling out on health care. And about Howard Dean and Kathleen S. promoting it.

"Certainly, the public seems to be weighed in Dean's favor. An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll conducted on Wednesday night showed that 76 percent of respondents wanted a choice between a public option for insurance coverage and private providers."

Jonah Goldberg is retarded.

Anyone that thinks Jonah Goldberg is more an intellectual historian or philosopher than he is a momma's boy political hack and historical (hysterical) revisionist.... hasn't been staying in a Holiday Inn Express.

Retarded people everywhere are insulted.

Socialism? Corporate fascism is more like it.

Socialism? Corporate fascism is more like it.

#30 | Posted by JeffnDenmark

Two sides of the same coin.

Well, I suppose every step away from something really brings you closer to it from the other direction.
#24 | Posted by kanrei

True by definition, but whether thats a good thing depends on how big your universe is.

Most of those who holler socialism have no idea what socialism is.

What we DO know is that capitalism has failed, broken down beyond repair because it devalues human beings as cogs in the machine that was crafted exclusively to create corporate profits.

In the old model, of Bush, Schlafly, Viguerie, Ayn Rand and Adam Smith, people were supposed to produce and then to consume. With machines taking over the producing role, there are, of course, fewer people left to consume the product. The ultimate dilemma for economists.

One possible solution is The Silver Rule: From each according to ability, to each according to need. Invoke that, apply that, and hear the "socialism" crescendos swell. herm

One possible solution is The Silver Rule: From each according to ability, to each according to need. Invoke that, apply that, and hear the "socialism" crescendos swell. herm

#33 | Posted by herm

Works out great for people with no ability and an ass load of need. Don't you get enough crap at the food pantry?

I think it's funny that the Obamites took over GM. If there's one institution on planet earth that is more dysfunctional that the retards running the unions and management at GM, it's the group in the White House.

Birds of a feather, and all that. Gonna make for some interesting board meetings, for a change.

Shouldn't we classify Obama's "socialism" in terms of what he DESIRES to control?

The health care industry is ONE SIXTH of our economy, and he wants a big chink o' that!

We classify pedophiles in terms of the goal of their twisted desires, maybe we should classify the Obama administration according to theirs...

Oh Corkless, first Hillary takes it in the ass in the election and now you are out shilling for Obamalamadingdong. Its amazing how quickly you changed teams.

I think your "silver" rule is called communism. Works for ants and bees, I guess, but never for humans.

Humans are by nature greedy and lazy. These are opposite forces and should be kept in balance. The problem with your silver rule (communism) is it allows people to be lazy (produce little or nothing and take more than they "need") while not rewarding those who are greedy and would work harder.

This give you North Korea and the old soviet union. China has delayed the issue with forced labor and a HUGE market in the US where they can dump cheap products.

Pure capitalism doesn't protect those who cannot do for themselves (in particular, children and disabled). This is more like what happened with immigrants who worked in "company" towns and who could never make enough to buy their own freedom.

So, while neither system in its pure form is perfect, the question is how do you strike a reasonable balance. We have a system that punishes hard workers (higher taxes) while rewarding bad behavior and the lazy (welfare systems, food stamps, popping out an unlimited number of children, unemployment extensions, etc.)

I think that a national sales tax would be a good first step, in that it levels the US and foreign goods, preventing the dumping that currently goes on. It generates more revenue from people who spend more, thus encouraging savings, and it would collect something from everyone.

As for Obama's desires, I don't like a "thought" police. There are plenty of things that he has already done to warrant our loathing. No reason to try and guess what is in his heart. Hey, he might have good intentions and just be a bleeding idiot.

How close? This is what socialism looks like:

Yeah... don't worry Honey. I will only put the tip in.

You guys simply do not understand do you?

We are being blackmailed. The blackmailers know that we are so fat and lazy that we will discard philosophical arguments for personal comfort and the illusion of 'security'.

The credit market will not crank back up and the dollars will not be allowed to flow until the primary mission is fulfilled.

That primary mission is the new worldwide banking regulations. As soon as they are in place the money will start flowing again.

The credit market will not crank back up and the dollars will not be allowed to flow until the primary mission is fulfilled.
That primary mission is the new worldwide banking regulations. As soon as they are in place the money will start flowing again.
#40 | Posted by Lipzoidial

Part of my frustration is in trying to find a way not to believe this.

Part of my frustration is in trying to find a way not to believe this.

#41 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

I know, I struggled with it for a long time too.

Only an exhaustive reading of the news articles from the 30's will make it come alive for you (the history books do not tell the story). Read about jp morgan and rockefeller. read about jekyl island. read who the founders of the federal reserve were and follow the path forward.

In the late 1920's, a bubble was created with margin loans, which was burst by the loan givers. The Fed (who is comprised of the loan givers) steps in and says, 'We can stabilize the money supply'. Gold was confiscated so no alternative money supply could be created. (gold will not be confiscated this time because no structure exists to use gold as it did in the 1930's). Resources were directed where the future was going - the rust belt. Now, the rust belt is dead and they will become what the south was in the last cycle. The new focus will be the South and West.

So you may say, 'Why'? It is the oldest reason in the world -- concentrate power in a few hands, control commerce, resources and people and scrape the cream off the top to maintain the power structure. It's the Zionist way.

It's the Zionist way.
#42 | Posted by Lipzoidial

Wasn't that implicit in what you had already stated (as I'm aware of some of the reading you suggested)?

Now if I agree with you I come off sounding like.... well, you know.

While "fascism" may appear in your vernacular a negative word (Hitler), he describes it is of a period when "politics turns into religion".

9-11-2001. You're with us or against us. Axis of evil. God chose Bush to lead in these perilous times. Loyalty oaths. Bush=America.

Of course, it goes as far back as George H Bush saying atheists can't be good citizens and the NOP conflating morality with (only) their Party.

I don't suppose you'll want to analyze this, Corky.

Feeling good by staying ignorant feels so much better. Til it doesn't.

3 rd times a charm.

PRIVATE SECTOR SQUEEZED -
Big Picture - The share of the economy controlled by the private sector has been squeezed down to a 55% share, because government (sum federal, state & local government) spending controls 45% of our economy, compared to but 12% when I was young. The Era of Big Government is not over. Did our founding forefathers intend such dominance and dependence upon government?

3. Federal Government Expansion Trends - Federal spending $3.1 trillion, or $10,318 per person - or 27% of the economy, compared to 3% before - spending trends by category - proof the culprit of debt and spending has been social spending, which increased 14 times faster than the economy, as trust in government and voter turn-out rates plummeted. A MUST READ.

4. State & Local Government Expansion Trends - explosive growth nation-wide to $2.1 trillion, or $6,848 per person - now 18% of the economic pie, compared to 6% post WW II. Most people know each working person today supports more seniors than prior generations, but few know each must also support more state & local government employees than ever before. Each year the number of these employees increases faster than the national population (40% faster since 1999), creating today's indicated excess of 12 million employees. A MUST READ. (also see companion report on one state- - as a template for evaluating your own state).

. If there's one institution on planet earth that is more dysfunctional that the retards running the unions and management at GM, it's the group in the White House.

dunno, RIR, it'd be pretty hard to top the former WH residents. Two lost wars, record deficits, the worst national security failure in history and a recession. Could throw in massive bank failures not seen since saint Reagan's days and NK with nukes, but that would just be rubbing it in.

They made Hoover look like a fiscal genius, Custer a great tactician and Studebaker Microsoft.

But keep whining.

"Two lost wars, record deficits, the worst national security failure in history and a recession.

But keep whining."

Priceless

Albert Einstein summed it all up succinctly 60 years ago in an article titled "Why Socialism?":

"Nowhere have we really overcome .... "the predatory phase" of human development....The economic anarchy of capitalist society....is the real source of the evil.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, (creating) an oligarchy with enormous power (that) cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society....The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development."

Again, the right outdoes itself at what it does best: mewling over nothing.

Now, it's creeping US socialism that is the big bad bogeyman, designed to thwart the popular efforts at health care for all by this administration, a proposition that has the support of 70 percent of Americans.

#2 | Posted by Corky

Uh, no it doesn't. Do you have a link?

I've seen an article that seems to say this, but it doesn't.

"Two lost wars, record deficits, the worst national security failure in history and a recession.

But keep whining."

Priceless

#54 | Posted by salamandagator

Northguy, you are becoming more and more like BoOb every day.

Could it be that the people you voted in are doing worse than Bush and you can't stand it?

Corky, have you had the time to analyze the link I posted for you above?

We're (I am) waiting for your insightful analysis and any recommendations you might have.

Here's the link again in case you missed it above.

Clarke: What Socialism Looks Like

Wait! A company was nationalized?

Isn't this what Hitler did?

So, because of Global Warming, Obama took over a very large auto maker?

Wait a minute... Global Warming is a fascist idea?

#59 | Posted by Washboard

Wash,

Liberals will NEVER understand the old ways. The original American ideals are pure evil dude! If you want quote the Founding Father's, you're insane and evil. It's time to change the Nation Anthem too.

Wash

Your grandfather's Milton Friedman Idol Site looks like a compilation of old news in a 1990'e web format.

If you have some relevant, current source that contradicts the numbers represented in the thread article pie chart, do feel free to post it.

Wash

Your grandfather's Milton Friedman Idol Site looks like a compilation of old news in a 1990'e web format.

If you have some relevant, current source that contradicts the numbers represented in the thread article pie chart, do feel free to post it.

#62 | Posted by Corky

Corky,

The article in this thread is trying to say that nationalizing a company and screwing private citizens out of their capital is ok.

IT'S NOT OK!

Well, I can't say I'm suprised with your response, Corky.

Your types don't do analysis well, if ever, at all. Precisely one of the reasons why we have a president obama.

Ah, the old adage "ignorace is bliss" is on display here daily.

Well, I was trying to be nice, Washtub.

You post a bunch of unmitigated crap compiled by someone no one has ever heard of at a website that looks like an mid-90's reject.

You point to no specific figures that dispute those used in the thread article and then you whine when laughed at.

No wonder Bush was such a failure, with your ilk at his back.

I'm not sure Northguy knows who Obama is, or that he's president. Every thread about Obama he comes on talking about Bush.

That "socialism" buzzword is a convenience through which illiterate uglies can voice their selfish opposition to any program designed to alleviate human misery. Now you can apply that label, or even (gasp!) "communism" to the Silver Rule if you like, but you can NOT find a flaw in it. herm

The Twentieth Century Motor Company

"Well, there was something that happened at that plant where I worked for twenty years. It was when the old man died and his heirs took over. There were three of them, two sons and a daughter, and they brought a new plan to run the factory. They let us vote on it, too, and everybody - almost everybody - voted for it. We didn't know. We thought it was good. No, that's not true, either. We thought that we were supposed to think it was good. The plan was that everybody in the factory would work according to his ability, but would be paid according to his need.

...

"Do you know how it worked, that plan, and what it did to people? Try pouring water into a tank where there's a pipe at the bottom draining it out faster than you pour it, and each bucket you bring breaks that pipe an inch wider, and the harder you work the more is demanded of you, and you stand slinging buckets forty hours a week, then forthy-eight, then fifty-six - for your neighbor's supper - for his wife's operation - for his child's measles - for his mother's wheel chair - for his uncle's shirt - for his nephew's schooling - for the baby next door - for the baby to be born - for anyone anywhere around you - it's theirs to receive, from diapers to dentures - and yours to work, from sunup to sundown, month after month, year after year, with nothing to show for it but your sweat, with nothing in sight for you but their pleasure, for the whole of your life, without rest, without hope, without end From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

This is what conservatism looks like:

70% support government run health insurance?? Where did you get that information? Keith Olberman I persume. If Americans like standing in line for hours to see a doctor and being treated like an animal, then they will love government health insurance. Take a trip over to your local VA Hospital.....

Two kinds of people in this world. 1- Sees the world as fallen and imperfect and works within it.
2- Sees the world as imperfect but thinks if they make a few adjustments, we can have a utopian society.
The problem is the adjustments never stop and the utopian society never materializes. Just screws everything up more than it already was.

Take a trip over to your local VA Hospital.....

#70 | Posted by elvisbelt at 2009-06-20 12:26 AM | Reply | F

The VA hospital here is cleaner than the local hospitals, and newer also. The staff is the friendliest I have ever encountered in any hospital. No lines, and they call the day before your appointmnt.

You are full of shit.

The VA hospital here is cleaner than the local hospitals, and newer also. The staff is the friendliest I have ever encountered in any hospital.

#72 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Yea, but what is it like outside of the psych ward?

Hey, our government (that's you and me) did not "take over" General Motors, and global warming had nothing to do with whatever it did do. Our government bailed out as failed capitalist enterprise to save some number of working Americans from starvation. It did so in the form of a loan, and it took a share of the company as collateral. Amazing how many D.R. economists fail to let that sink in. herm

"A" failed, not "as" faild. You knew that. herm

from near the top...

"All the partisan hand-wringing about socialism is just that, GOP fearmongering. "

#2 | Posted by Corky at 2009-06-18 10:51 AM |

Yeah but they've gotten so Damn Good at it Cork,
it's practically ALL THEY KNOW...

"Ah, watch out!! Obama's comin' for yer gun Pa..."

"Ah, God's nots a black man in the Whitey House..."

"Oh Lordie, he's gone dun and made us Socialists and
stuff..."

This is the typical Right wing banter being heard issuing from the intellectuals, and the trailer courts on the Right...

sad. but hey...when you've told lies for so damn long...eventually, you begin to believe in them.

sad. but hey...when you've been told lies for so damn long...eventually, you begin to believe in them.

Hitler's Big Lie theory is SOP fer the fools at Faux News and other distribution centers of reichwingnut talking points.

Be Well.