Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, June 01, 2009

Michael Moore: I write this on the morning of the end of the once-mighty General Motors. By high noon, the President of the United States will have made it official: General Motors, as we know it, has been totaled. It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has now made itself obsolete.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

corky

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

Ralph Nader also weighed in on GM

www.breitbart.com

your messiah is now toast. 4 and out.

Moore is correct to note that GMs demise was predicated on greed, sloth, hubris and short sighted thinking.

Spud thinks he's being highly optimistic by saying that this moment represents a chance for GM to rise from it's own ashes like a phoenix by rethinking, retooling, redesigning and offering up more hybrids and eco-friendly alternative vehicles fit for a new century.

Spud allows that the opportunity does exist but the chances of it doing so successfully in the time frame it has aint great.

Be Well.

Amen Michael! Totally agree!

Moore is correct to note that GMs demise was predicated on greed, sloth, hubris and short sighted thinking.

Indeed, I agree for once with Moore. In words at least, but not I suspect in ultimate meaning.

The greed, sloth, hubris, and short-sighted thinking was part the managements... and part the UAW. Both saw GM (and the other car manufacturers) as a gravy train. The managers acted like the track would never end, and the UAW wanted to ride that train for all it was worth.

So you could say that GM put its head in the noose, but the UAW supplied the rope and helped kick the chair away.

The greed, sloth, hubris, and short-sighted thinking of GM has now been passed onto the government.

Yeah, let's hope they deal with it correctly, right-o, boy.

Just stupid, hybrid care will throw GM for sure into total bankrupcy.

I just laugh at all these people who are trying to tell GM what their problem is while driving their trucks.

Does everyone think the car world market is the USA?

How many GM's are sold in china? How many in Korea? how many in Japan? Suppose because they aren't allowed in those markets that it regulates which cars they produce?

your messiah is now toast. 4 and out.

#2 | Posted by chickenrancher at

what are you talking about??

you know good and well that "pravda west' ..otherwise known as the liberal media made him and he is TOO BIG TO FAIL...dont you know that

they have IGNORED HIS SANCTION of voter intimidation as well as done nothing but go GA GA over his spending TAXPAYER money for his date to NY while Gm goes under and THOUSANDS Lose thier jobs.

hey CHICKEN

close your eyes and think of the reaction here and national...

bush is pres and GM is going under and he is in crawford clearing brush.......

WOW>.....just think of the SCREAMING AND bitching and moaning...........

your messiah is now toast. 4 and out.

~Chickenshiite

what are you talking about??

~Babbler

Asking that question is a mug's game, Babbler.

Even Chickpea does't know wot he's on about most days.

Like you, he mostly just spews half remembered sound bytes from various right wing media outlets.

K?

Be Well.

I have been to Brazil and China and Chevy's are all over in both places. I am pretty sure I read where GM makes money over-seas. I would guess that part of the difference is that the UAW does not exist in those countries. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Obama pledged not to run an auto company --- now Obama is running an auto company. The liberal messiah has bactracked!

If liberals did not exist conservatives would need to invent them to keep themselves from masturbating incessantly over airbrushed pictures of Sarah Palin.

MM should be thanking Obama.

Now there is a guy Rattner in charge and another 31 year old who knows only how to put gas and oil into a car running the Car Czar operations out of the WH.

This was totally against the Constitution btw.

Ford is tooling up their pickup truck lines.
They were smart to not take any bailout money.
GM and Chrysler will be run by the government,by bureaucrats who know dick about business.
+50B we will never see again.
Compound that by a liberal democrat in the presidency will mean Chrysler and GM will be tools to the government,a sure sign of disaster.

rwd

The Constitution is just a piece of paper. Bush said so, so why should Obama pay it any heed either???

FORD:

Found
On
Road
Dead

MURPHY

Do you recall the U.S. rescuing Chrysler in the 1980's?

Were you aware the Japanese subsidize their U.S. subsidiaries?

moore's plan sounds great, except for the taxes. i just don't see why i should have to pay extra for getting something for which there is no offered alternative.

Sawdust has been to china and says GM all over the place.....LOL then you haven't been to china.

It is just so ignorant that we have our own citizens wishing the demise of our American companies....shows their true ignorance.

Do you recall the U.S. rescuing Chrysler in the 1980's?

I don't recall this, I do recall the U.S. raping the hell out of chrysler in loans at 36% interest which Iacoca had paid back years early and said he would never do or rely on the U.S. government again.

Even our own government is out for the demise of our labor force industries....we have a bleak future.

SHANGHAI - China's auto industry has come a long way since General Motors Corp. set up its first factory here in a brand new industrial zone in Shanghai just over a decade ago.

RIP GM

Tears

:+('''''''''''

AU--and how much money was Chrysler in for that in the 1980's?

Not any where near the 50 billion that GM is in for now.

And they are talking about the loan going up to 100 billion.

This GM is done--poke it with a fork.

Wait for the gov't --Obama--to artifically raise the cost of gas.

By taxing it of course--must raise the tax on gas to $5.00 and more to hurt the mid-size and big cars.

But of course that will only hurt the folks.

Hmmm If I recall correctly TARP was Bush's plan. Take it up with them.

If we're willing to bail out AIG for $117 Billion so far, we should be willing to save the auto industry with many times more workers - a million counting suppliers.

As far as your 'gas price' statement, when Bush took office it was around a $1 a gallon.

Obama made it a point to say the 60% percent share of the government will not dictate where GM will build new factories.
Uh ok.
As long as they are in democratic districts that is.
He also said all the people hurt by this should feel comfort in knowing their sacrifice will mean a better America.
(o) the big O.

rwd

your messiah is now toast. 4 and out.

#2 | Posted by chickenrancher at 2009-06-01 08:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just because you keep blocking your ears and yelling it repeatedly doesn't make it so.

When Bush took office, gas was about $1.50- $1.60. Bush nor big oil is the problem, it's the environmentalists who have somehow garnered enough power to keep us from using our own resources, lest we destroy the planet...what a bunch of hogwash. GM is making good vehicles, I'm drivin' a 2008 Impala, already have 44500 miles and haven't had a minutes trouble. I've got a buddy who has a Camry and it's no better

When Bush took office, gas was about $1.50- $1.60.

Not here it wasn't. $1.19 January 2001.

GM vehicles aren't bad,its the union contracts that put them where they are.
I hope they keep the K line.
Chrysler on the other hand is a different story.

rwd

#29 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Got a link?

rwd

Anyone who thinks Mikey has good ideas is a lost cause.
Believe it or not business has to make a profit.
Even Mikey's business has to make a profit to stay in business. So Mikey until the government pays for your website and all the fecal matter you spew keep dreaming.
You know just like the Blondie song.
We are going to be using gasoline for at least the next fifty years.
How do I know this?
I am on the inside...
Hydrogen power plants are fifty years away from being viable for normal travel.
So Mikey keep driving that water powered car, or solar, or battery powered rig. Oh wait they don't exist.
I am sure you would want the government to pay for all this technology. Why? Because the government protects us from ourselves.
Now I understand.

Always blaming the Unions ALWAYS. It nevehjr fails with the right wingers.

Larry

Not here it wasn't. $1.19 January 2001.

What a fuckup Bush was... couldn't even get the oil war right...

RWD

Here ya go.

tonto.eia.doe.gov

RWD

I also have a very good memory

What a fuckup Bush was... couldn't even get the oil war right...

No kidding. He started that war for oil then forgot to take it!

Now that's stupidity!

Always blaming the Unions ALWAYS.

#33 | Posted by LarryMohr

Responsible unions have their place in the scheme of things Larry but the UAW is anything but responsible they share the blame with corporate for the state of the U.S. auto industry

GM vehicles aren't bad,its the union contracts that put them where they are.

Management put all their eggs in the gas guzzling SUV market. The UAW had zero say over what GM would manufacture.

#32 | Posted by bluzyhound

It's what's great about the Internets and the ol' DR... any fucking idiot can post here.

What a fuckup Bush was... couldn't even get the oil war right...

No kidding. He started that war for oil then forgot to take it!

Now that's stupidity!

#37 | Posted by goatman at 2009-06-01 11:33 PM | Reply | Flag: Accurate

RWD

Here ya go.

tonto.eia.doe.gov

#35 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2009-06-01 11:31 PM Flag: Looks amazingly like the national debt chart

jmbell.org

Responsible unions have their place in the scheme of things Larry but the UAW is anything but responsible they share the blame with corporate for the state of the U.S. auto industry

How little people know is evident here.

It is always humorous watching people make comments about things they know nothing about or have ever worked near unions.

As these stupid attitudes continue with what they don't know, the country gets worse and worse but they continue to blame the unions...LOL!

When there are no unions left, in their eyes the country will begin to grow and when it doesn't they won't know what to blame.

"Management put all their eggs in the gas guzzling SUV market. The UAW had zero say over what GM would manufacture. " - AU

There is a 25% tariff on import light trucks/SUV's, its been there for forty years. This tariff was supported by both Unions, GM and government.

By the UAW lobbying to keep the tarrif, they did have something to say in the cars/trucks the manufactures made.

UAW RON GETTELFINGER, arguing to keep the 25% tariff.
www.uaw.org

If only the Big Three had taken advantage and built comfortable fuel efficient vehicles. Again, the UAW had no say in what they built. They showed up for work.

That tariff, BTW, was because the Japanese were dumping cars in the U.S. at a loss to gain market share - something the U.S. punishes other countries for doing. Even so, the Japanese still subsidize their U.S. subsidiaries putting U.S. manufacturers at a disadvantage.

Management of the Big Three is entirely to blame. Recalling all the EV's (electric vehicles) and scrapping them was a huge blunder on GM's part. Management.

There is a 25% tariff on import light trucks/SUV's, its been there for forty years.

And why idiots like Shelby and states like Alabama give hundreds of millions in tax incentives and other extremely costly giveaways to build plants to make them here - again putting U.S. manufacturers at a disadvantage.

Chrysler got a loan from the government, which it secured with its assets. Chrysler paid back the loan early, complete with userous interest.

But now that GM is owned by the greedy UAW, slothful bondholders and mostly by the king of hubris, our savior Obama, the company goes from having little chance of survival to absolutely none. But unlike a normal corporate bankruptcy, we're in to pay the bills on the way down and get nothing for it. We're at $50 billion and counting, and the fun has yet to begin.

Wait till we see what Government Motors builds and expects us to buy.

#47 | Posted by Dinsey at 2009-06-02 12:21 AM | Reply | Flag: More right wing jingoism.

BTW

TARP was created by the Bush Administration under a 'catastrophe about to happen' scenario. God forbid we should save one of the largest U.S. corporations that still manufacture products here.

"Twenty years ago when I made "Roger & Me," I tried to warn people about what was ahead for General Motors. Had the power structure and the punditocracy listened, maybe much of this could have been avoided."

X out article, move on.

TARP was created by the Bush Administration under a 'catastrophe about to happen' scenario.

Quit telling only half the story and trying to pretend you have laid it all out for us.

Bush pushed TARP, which the Democrats drooled over and passed without hesitation. Obama then not only continued the practice, but expanded it to new heights, grabbing ever ounce of corporate control he could get away with. I thought the bailouts were a bad idea when Bush was pushing it, I think what Obama is doing now is worse.

The fact is, the failing business like GM are the Democrat's version of Terry Schiavo. My how the worm turns.

Bush pushed TARP, which the Democrats drooled over and passed without hesitation.

BS. Congress was told a doomsday scenario if it wasn't passed ASAP. Just how short do you think our memories are?

Puleeeeeeeeeeeeze

BS. Congress was told a doomsday scenario if it wasn't passed ASAP.

BS yourself. They were pushing the same message in parallel with Bush... not as a result of Bush.

You just want to keep GM on life support despite the fact that it is dead. Like I said... the Democrat's Terry Schiavo.

Again, BS MooMan

Paulson kept his 2 page plan and the looming crisis a secret until it was sprung on everyone at the 11th hour.

Geez, Mooman. Didn't you read the news stories daily about it as it happened mere months ago?

Again, BS MooMan

Paulson kept his 2 page plan and the looming crisis a secret until it was sprung on everyone at the 11th hour.

Yes... and I remember well, that as soon as the plan was made public the Democrats stickied their jockies in rapture. Conservatives on the other hand where aghast... or didn't you read the news reports or thread posts?

Face it... on this issue, Bush was a DIEBT (Democrat In Everything But Name).

Take your Terry Schiavo off life support.

"The fact is, the failing business like GM are the Democrat's version of Terry Schiavo."

That's not so much a "fact" as it is nonsense.

Yes... and I remember well, that as soon as the plan was made public the Democrats stickied their jockies in rapture.

No one in Congress had a clue until Paulson threw the fire alarm September 12th and then-President Bush, when he finally made a one paragraph statement, urged Congress for swift bipartisan action - echoing Paulson's statements?

That's not so much a "fact" as it is nonsense

Sure it is Boyd. You just don't want to own up to it.

It has failed. You tried to give GM therapy (bailouts) so it could recover. Instead it just died anyway. However Democrats still want to keep it on life support pumping more and more resources into it, refusing to just let it die and get it over with.

Terry Schiavo all over again within the corporate world.

Mooman-
re: "Bush was a DIEBT (Democrat In Everything But Name)

It seems as if "Democrat", to the true illiterati, has come to mean "people I don't like". To these same folk (you are included), "unconstitutional" has as it's new stupid meaning, "actions I don't like".

No one in Congress had a clue until Paulson threw the fire alarm September 12th and then-President Bush, when he finally made a one paragraph statement, urged Congress for swift bipartisan action - echoing Paulson's statements?

Bullshit... they knew as soon as Freddie and Fannie bit the dust. Paulson just spoke what the liberal talking heads were already muttering about. Democrats creamed their shorts at Paulson's "fire alarm" and the Republican's were horrified by the idea.

Bush was a Dem on this one since they were the only one in whole-sale support.

It seems as if "Democrat", to the true illiterati, has come to mean "people I don't like".

No... I say if it walks like a donkey, and brays like a donkey then it is a donkey, even if the tag on it says "elephant".

BS. Congress was told a doomsday scenario if it wasn't passed ASAP.

MOOMANFL:

BS yourself. They were pushing the same message in parallel with Bush... not as a result of Bush.

BS. It came directly from Paulson and the Bush WH, not the other way around. Everyone else was as surprised as Congress.

You just want to keep GM on life support despite the fact that it is dead. Like I said... the Democrat's Terry Schiavo.

Schiavo: 1 life GM: Half a million livelihoods

Ya, call me a patriotic American. I actually support Americans and American manufacturing unlike the flag wavers who are now showing their lack of patriotism by wishing the end of life as they know it for half a million people and their families.

Were you aware the Japanese subsidize their U.S. subsidiaries? -- #17 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Even more importantly, they have national health care, so their auto companies don't have to provide it.

Right wingers hate American workers.

They rail against Unions because union members have been on the fact Republicans will screw the American worker every chance they get. Shit, they fought a $1 an hour raise (over time) in the minimum wage for years.

BS. Congress was told a doomsday scenario if it wasn't passed ASAP.

There were already mutters about it before Congress was talking doomsday. Besides, even when Paulson spoke of "doomsday", only the Democrats ran with it and parroted it. Bush was wrong on it, but the Democrats ran with it full tilt.

Since then they have taken it to heights Bush never dreamed of.

on to the fact Republicans will screw the Ameircan worker every chance they get.

MOOMANFL

You're a hopeless hack on this.

The timeline is clear. Bush pleaded for immediate action. Congress was just as stunned by Paulson' "emergency announcement" as everyone else. That isn't Dem or Rep. It's well known news history.

Elephants DON'T have very good memory when it comes to you and events that only happened 8 months ago and were headlines for weeks.

to heights Bush never dreamed of.

He's never been known for his imagination.

TARP was created by the Bush Administration under a 'catastrophe about to happen' scenario. -- AU

Quit telling only half the story... Bush pushed TARP, which the Democrats drooled over and passed without hesitation. -- #50 | Posted by moomanfl

Yep. That's why I voted for Nader.

Remember Congress' taking Rosh Hashanah off instead of deliberating on the bill -- at the same time they were telling us this was a crisis that could lead to a global financial meltdown?

Remember when McCain suggested that both candidates suspend their campaigns to look closely at the bill, and was ridiculed by Obama as being unable to "multitask?"


Schiavo: 1 life GM: Half a million livelihoods

Half a million... that we all have to pay the paycheck for whether we even like GM vehicles or not.

Rob everyone else just so you can keep a dead business' floating belly up on top of the water rather than sinking.

You are basically turning GM into Lenin's corpse display. Dead and gone with only the illusion of life put on morbid display. All so the Democrats can nod wisely to themselves and say "Doesn't it look good?" while waiting for the corpse to magically spring to life and start dancing again.

Let it die... put the money to better use helping new start-ups that won't make the same mistake that killed GM. Industry hates a vacuum. Maybe those workers can find a home there, or maybe they will just move on to a company that isn't embalmed worse than King Tut's mummy.

The timeline is clear. Bush pleaded for immediate action.

LOL... you ignore that talks of "bailout" were coming as soon as Freddie and Fannie bit the dust. Paulson's plan just upped the volume.

"Bush was a DIEBT (Democrat In Everything But Name)

Sure. Pro-life, pro-death penalty, anti-euthanasia, pro war on drugs, anti stem cells, pro tax cuts for the rich, pro war, pro torture, pro wire tapping.

PS- You're a fool.

PS- You're a fool.

The fool is you since you took that quote out of context.

All you did was ignore the part of the quote that was inconvenient to the straw man you wanted to erect.

I specified that ON THIS ISSUE Bush was a Democrat in everything but name. Ignoring this issue in your quote, then naming a bunch of issues that have nothing to do with the one I named is moronic.

MOOMANFL

So, we should put a stake in the heart of American manufacturing? That's where we're headed.

Most non white collar jobs now pay $10 an hour (if that) to start. You want to support a family on that? Why are you arguing about saving a huge American industry when just a few weeks ago you said you couldn't even afford to buy a $10 knife?

I don't get it. You're patriotic pro saving things American or you're not. There's no middle ground. During the Bush years millions of jobs left that may never return - WITH TAX CREDITS TO PAY FOR THE MOVE! Huh?

This is just more GOP bullshit because unions are onto their anti-American economic policy. The proof is everywhere. Mostly in China these days.

Yiddish word: "Feh!"

"Bush was a DIEBT (Democrat In Everything But Name)"

I love it! Republicans finally got control of every branch of gov't and to excuse their monumental failures on multiple fronts,

THEY CLAIM THAT THE REPUBLICANS THEY ELECTED WERE ACTUALLY DEMOCRATS!

It's just too stupid a meme to live.

Mooman: "I specified that ON THIS ISSUE Bush was a Democrat in everything but name."

(You folks must understand that "Democrat" in Moo's dictionary means, "people who do stuff I don't like". It's a continually evolving definition with every Republican elected...)

Congress was just as stunned by Paulson' "emergency announcement" as everyone else.

Elephants DON'T have very good memory...#67 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

AU, you are re-christened "Dumbo."

Here are drafts of the letters I sent to my reps in Congress. The letters themselves don't have dates (I sent them electronically through my senators' and rep's web sites), but the file I saved them is dated 9/30/08.

First letter:

Dear Senator X,

I have just read the details of the bailout plan, and I am outraged. No protection for homeowners? A $700B blank check to the Bush Administration and Henry Paulson, whose mismanagement of the mortgage crisis got us into this mess in the first place? (Please don't insult me by suggesting the limited oversight provided is meaningful.)

Future regulation? Where is it? We bail them out, and they get to resume business as usual?

And the extent of taxpayer protection is something like "if the program is a loss after 5 years, the president has to write a proposal for recouping the losses." That's it??? He or she is bound only to write a proposal?

Please explain to me why you couldn't use $700B to help troubled homeowners refinance. That would keep payments flowing to the banking sector, keeping them solvent, AND allow people to keep their homes.

Instead, congress is proposing an outrageous redistribution of wealth from taxpayers to Wall Street. Yes, I understand that our pensions, etc., will be affected, but the proposed bailout is an unconscionably bad plan.

I wish I could be more polite, but this proposal is outrageous.

Thank you for your attention,


(cont'd)

Second letter, two days later:

Dear Senator X,

I wrote two nights ago to express my outrage at the bailout bill, and write now to express my surprise and anger that the bill that will come before the Senate tomorrow is no better.

Let me be clear: I understand there is a serious problem, and something must be done. What shocks me is that the bill remains a $700B blank check written and administered by the people (Hank Paulson) who have already proven their incompetence, supplemented by some completely unrelated tax changes.

These changes do nothing to mitigate the failings of the original bill, namely:

(1) They do not include regulatory reform such as capital adequacy requirements for non-depository institutions and some sort of restrictions on derivatives and other instruments that are so complex that no one knows how to assess their risk.

(2) They do nothing to provide genuine oversight. The original bill included only a bipartistan committee empowered to see -- but not change -- the Treasury Secretary's choice of administrators. The modifications I have seen in the bill you will vote on tomorrow does nothing to address this. This is a recipe for crony capitalism -- small wonder the U.S. is being subjected to an IMF audit!

(3) The bill is a straight transfer -- there is no binding mechanism to ensure that this $700B is repaid to U.S. taxpayers.

I encourage you to read this article by Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz: www.thenation.com

In one passage, he writes:

"To be frank, the administration has a credibility and trust gap as big as that of Wall Street. If the crisis was as severe as they claim, why didn't they propose a more credible plan? With lack of oversight and transparency the cause of the current problem, how could they make a proposal so short in both? If a quick consensus is required, why not include provisions to stop the source of bleeding, to aid the millions of Americans that are losing their homes? Why not spend as much on them as on Wall Street? Do they still believe in trickle-down economics, when for the past eight years money has been trickling up to the wizards of Wall Street? Why not enact bankruptcy reform, to help Americans write down the value of the mortgage on their overvalued home? No one benefits from these costly foreclosures.

The administration is once again holding a gun at our head, saying, "My way or the highway." We have been bamboozled before by this tactic. We should not let it happen to us again."

You had the courage to take a stand against the Iraq War when Republicans were reluctant to criticize our president, and you were proven right. Please have the courage to stand up against this bill and insist that Congress do the hard work needed to write a bill that addresses the causes of the crisis and protects ordinary taxpayers.

Thank you for your attention,

So, we should put a stake in the heart of American manufacturing? That's where we're headed.

Bullshit. This is GM. Not the whole US manufacturing industry. Gross exaggeration and distortion doesn't make your point any more valid.

I must admit to being an idiot. I just assumed that Democrats should be judged by what they do when given power, and Republicans should be judged by what they do when given power. I never knew there was a static and irreducible ideological ideal that pinned down the two parties.

Moo?

Republicans continue to want this country to fail just so they can get more horrible leadership like Bush back into power. I other hand want Obama to devise a brilliant plan like Moore thought of. Putting Americans back to work while building clean energy efficient transportation is something all Americans want. Sadly though stupidity and greed have caused many Americans to continue to only believe in tired old thinking. I pray Obama can make these idiots see the light in their otherwise dark brain.

It's just too stupid a meme to live.

Except I specified that I was speaking of THIS ISSUE ONLY... since it was basically Bush and the Democrats for, Republicans against.

He picked his side on this issue. Evidently you are scared that you will be stuck with it.

If WW2 in the Pacific were classified like you are trying to classify this, one japanese soldier in our army would be enough to label it as the Japanese Civil War.

Again, these letters were written BEFORE the floor votes. 4-5 Nobel prize winners (including Stiglitz, cited in the letter) opposed TARP BEFORE it was put to a vote. Congress had all the info it needed; BOTH Dems and Repubs are responsible, and neither can credibly claim that they didn't know what they were doing.

PHOENIX

(slapping forehead)

I feel like such a dumbo. If only I'd seen your letters dated 2 weeks after Paulson sprung this on everyone I'd never have thought I read about it as it happened - surprising everyone with his 5 alarm fire, 2 page plan, and Emergency meeting with Bernake!

MOOMANFL

Why are you arguing about saving a huge American industry (one of the last large manufacturing industries left in the U.S.) when just a few weeks ago you said you couldn't even afford to buy a $10 knife?

(talk about cutting your own throat!)

and Republicans should be judged by what they do when given power

I agree... so since Bush was acting like a Democrat on this issue, I judged him as one on this issue.

Moo-
I'm just intrigued by your definition of "Republican".

Is a "Republican" FOR small government and yet FOR indefinite detention without trial or charges of a US citizen? FOR secret prisons? FOR torture?

..but FOR small gov't?

FOR being misled into war...

but also for less taxes?

I must admit I'm confused by your categories, Moo.

Why are you arguing about saving a huge American industry

Nothing suggests that it WILL be saved. We were told that the bailout would keep it from going bankrupt... it didn't. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

I am not insane however, and I suggest we get off this ride now before it takes us all down with it.

If only I'd seen your letters dated 2 weeks after Paulson sprung this on everyone... -- #84 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

They were written BEFORE the votes, and after extensive news coverage including the 9/26 Stiglitz piece.

Then again, perhaps our Senators and Representatives could not get newspapers wherever it was they went for Rosh Hashanah.

Boyd,

You just can't help deflecting to irrelevant issues that have nothing to do with what I said rather than own the fact that the only one's siding with Bush on this was the Democrats.

It just seems that your idealized definitions of what a Democrat and a Republican is has no relationship to the actual world we, um, you know, live in, Moo.

Think on it Moo.

Adios! Have good Tuesdays all around!

It just seems that your idealized definitions of what a Democrat and a Republican is has no relationship to the actual world we, um, you know, live in, Moo.

Hey, it was YOU that suggested we should judge them by what they actually do.

I just followed your suggesting, and on this issue judge that Bush was acting like a Democrat.

Sorry if that sticks in your craw and trying to deflect doesn't unstick it.

Actually... no I am NOT sorry.

Eat it, Boyd. Love it. OWN it.

PHOENIX

Paulson pulled the Emergency Alarm a good couple weeks before you wrote your letters. It was made clear this was an emergency and that Congress and the WH needed to work hand in hand to save the U.S. financial sector.

I should be a Republican. In fact, I was at one time. I have the memory of an elephant.

I just followed your suggesting, and on this issue judge that Bush was acting like a Democrat.

MOOMANFL

Bush did the Bush thing: Spring another crisis that costs our national treasure. Then Paulson did the Republican thing of late (think 'no bid contracts'):

Handed billions to financial corporations who still have the same board members today, no new business models, same CEO's, no oversight of how and where our tax dollars were spent (buying other banks instead of lending money), etc.

Niiiiiiiiiice!

AU,

Bailouts were already being talked about before Paulson made the statment that you refer to. Bailout talk started way back with the collapse of IndiMac and the resulting stock drop of Fannie and Freddie back in July.

Bush did the Bush thing:

And the only ones in the fan stands clapping for him on this one was the Democrats.

Eat it... Love it... OWN it.

Anyway... night everyone. Moo needs sleep badly.

Take care and keep safe.

I didn't clap. As usual I shook my head in disdain for their waiting months to spring this on us at the 11th hour rather than giving Congress and the American people the news before it was an emergency for which - even months later - Paulson only had a 2 page plan prepared to deal with it.

The incompetence of the Bush years will go down in infamy.

You too MOOMAN

:-0

I didn't clap.

Grumbling that he didn't do it sooner isn't the same as condemning him for doing it in the first place. So you were clapping the action and condemning the timing. That is a little too much nuance for credibility in claiming the Democrats didn't side with Bush on this one.

Sorry... I am an addict. I couldn't resist one last refresh. *SIGH*

Paulson pulled the Emergency Alarm a good couple weeks before you wrote your letters.

Who cares when he pulled the alarm? (A) It was Paulson, a member of the Bush Administration who was going to be looking for a job in the banking sector in 3 months, and (B) it was before Congress voted.

It was made clear this was an emergency and that Congress and the WH needed to work hand in hand to save the U.S. financial sector. -- #94 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Gosh... tough call... Paulson says it's an emergency and Congress has to do whatever he says... 4-5 Econ Nobel Prize winners say TARP's not the right bill. Without even reading the arguments, who in their right mind would go with the Bush Administration official on that one?

Grumbling that he didn't do it sooner isn't the same as condemning him for doing it in the first place. So you were clapping the action and condemning the timing.

You're putting words in my mouth I never spoke, and actions I never took. I didn't applaud a single thing Bush did except invade Afghanistan to get Bin Laden (air out of the balloon on that one).

Get some rest. You need it! LOL Have a good one.

Bush did the Bush thing: Spring another crisis that costs our national treasure. -- #95 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Yes, and Congressional Dems did the Congressional Dem thing and gave him whatever he asked for.

It was made clear this was an emergency and that Congress and the WH needed to work hand in hand to save the U.S. financial sector. -- #94 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Gosh... tough call... Paulson says it's an emergency and Congress has to do whatever he says... 4-5 Econ Nobel Prize winners say TARP's not the right bill. Without even reading the arguments, who in their right mind would go with the Bush Administration official on that one?

I can't understand anyone who went with much of anything the Bush Admimistration did, but they did - long after it was clear they didn't have a clue about war or much of anything else. In this case, a failure of the financial sector would have been terminal to the economy rather than life threatening. Now, how that money was handed out to Wall Street once it was appropriated was straight out of the Bush playbook...

New GM CEO Fritz Henderson is on C-Span right now in a rebroadcast of a news conference earlier today.

Yes, and Congressional Dems did the Congressional Dem thing and gave him whatever he asked for.

#105 | Posted by Phoenix

More of this bullshit line? Same BS as with the Authorization of Force vis a vis Iraq?

Later. Homie don't play that.

AU,

Trying to get you to stick to a position is like trying to nail jell-o to.... well... jell-o.

First you accuse those who oppose bailouts of wanting America to collapse (or at least her whole manufacturing industry which amounts to the same thing).

Then you say you never supported the bailout since you also claimed it was Bush's plan.

Which is it? Do you agree with the bailouts or not?

Besides... who ever claimed you represented all the rest of the Democrats? I never singled you out as representative of them all.

The Democrats had a choice: Side with Bush, or don't.

They chose to side with Bush on this issue.

The Republicans didn't.

how that money was handed out to Wall Street once it was appropriated was straight out of the Bush playbook... -- #106 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

--no surprise given the lack of oversight provided by the legislation. Congress is full of lawyers, all of whom have staffs. They KNEW this, AU, and voted for it.

Now good NIGHT :)

Let me sleep.

As soon as I start getting ready to shut everything down, my sixth sense keeps telling me you are typing. LOL

Seriously though. I really have to find the will to drag my eyes away from the screen, but every time I try I remember one more thing I meant to do that I forgot today. Then I find myself saying "just one more refresh".

They chose to side with Bush on this issue. The Republicans didn't. -- #109 | Posted by moomanfl

That's not quite right, Mooman. There was a contingent of Republicans who didn't, just as there were Dems who didn't. But remember, Pelosi cut some kind of deal where she wouldn't deliver the needed number of Dem votes unless the Repubs delivered a comparable number.

BOTH sides -- and not just Bush Administration officials -- are guilty.

I really have to find the will to drag my eyes away from the screen... -- #111 | Posted by moomanfl

Me too. I really wish I hadn't looked at this one -- makes my blood boil all over again.

MOOMAN

This is where I should pull out 101st's BS line about "I'm in your head". LOL

BOTH sides -- and not just Bush Administration officials -- are guilty.

I heartily disagree. Paulson should have made everyone aware of the seriousness of the situation weeks if not months before. He didn't. He certainly should have had more than 2 pages prepared to deal with the situation.

This is where I should pull out 101st's BS line about "I'm in your head". LOL

Nah... that line only works if I am screaming in caps, or calling you names.

All I did was point out your contradictory positions:

a) That those not for bailouts are for failure of the manufacturing industry.

b) The bailouts were Bush's plan

c) You only supported two of Bush's plans: invasion of Afghanistan, and getting Bin Laden.

Notice that you didn't include the bailouts in "c". Your "c" comment was in rebuttal to my accusing you of siding with Bush on the bailouts.

So...

Either you are saying you wanted to, in your own words, "put a stake in the heart of American manufacturing".

Or... you supported the bailouts.

Which was it?

Nevermind on the "caps" rebuttal. I just got what you were saying.

Jeepers creepers!!! I really AM tired to have missed that one.

Touche, my friend.

And with that I will try once again to bid you adieu. Maybe I can manage it this time.

PHOENIX

Sorry, guy/gal. The blame rests squarely in the WH. Don't ever see a fire start and wait until it's flames are going through the roof before calling the fire dept.

I know this is the right winger's new line: "The Dems voted for it", just as Congress was told an Authorization for War was only to put pressure on Saddam to allow the UN Weapons Inspectors to finish their job - which, if they had, would have resulted in our avoiding a quagmire, multitrillion dollar, million casualty war they always were going to fight regardless.

Couldn't have the truth come out now, could they? Even then, intel was scrubbed of all doubts about the veracity of intel from nefarious characters like "Curveball" and many others. Congress was ultimately given what the WH wanted them to see.

This BS line about Paulson and the Bush WH somehow in bed with Democrats on the bailout is BS. They said it was a national emergency. The bill - we were told - MUST be passed in record time to avoid a complete collapse of our economy.

I'm really sick of Republican double talk and blame shifting. So is the rest of the country. Bush's WH created a myriad of messes, raised alarms too late or over fires that didn't exist. You know it. I know it. Most of the country and world know it, but if that's what you want to believe it's a free country. Thank God it isn't in the hands of incompetent idiots anymore.

I just realized also, what has been keeping me awake: the big fallacy in your argument about Paulson.

The Paulson plan you were talking about was for the BANKING INDUSTRY. Not the auto industry.

Yes, in the auto bailout 32 Republicans voted yes... and so did 205 Democrats.

150 Republicans voted no... only 20 Democrats followed suit.

This lopsided vote clearly shows who was for this bailout and who wasn't, and slams it pretty solidly on the Democrats.

You certainly can't say it was an equal relationship. That would be like saying WW2 in the Pacific was "the Japanese fighting amongst themselves" just because we had a few of them in our army.

MOOMANFL:

a) That those not for bailouts are for failure of the manufacturing industry.

It's not just that. Screaming about unions is antithetical to American well being. Good paying jobs hardly exist, yet the right is screaming for the death of one of the few industries that still pay them.

b) The bailouts were Bush's plan

Yes, they were. In no uncertain terms. On a 2 page plan months after Paulson had a chance to form a credible plan. The use of TARP funds for the auto industry were not on the table at the time the legislation was enacted.

c) You only supported two of Bush's plans: invasion of Afghanistan, and getting Bin Laden.

Yep. Invasion: Done Success: Hardly Bin Laden and Zawahiri: At large - 8 fucking years later

I'm for saving the last decent paying manufacturing industry we have left in the United States. If you aren't, don't ever complain about money problems. Even 10 years ago you could get a job that would support a family. Nearly impossible to find in the manufacturing sector anymore.

The Paulson plan you were talking about was for the BANKING INDUSTRY. Not the auto industry.

The funds going to the auto industry have largely come out of TARP. Bush gave GM their first $17 Billion out of TARP. Obama's last couple loans have come out of TARP.

"Troubled Assets" are "Troubled Assets"

GM has "trouble assets".

I'm pretty much done wanting to go over this tonight.

I'm an American who grew up in the middle class. If you'd like to see the last vestiges of it gone, that's your right. Me? I don't want that to happen, but it has been ratcheted up to unprecedented levels the last 8 years.

This will end up being a nation of a small percent who can afford college and soup lines for everyone else that doesn't have a job as a chauffeur or servant before too many years if things keep going the way they are.

Yes, in the auto bailout 32 Republicans voted yes... and so did 205 Democrats.

150 Republicans voted no... only 20 Democrats followed suit.

MOOMAN

That was over a small additional loan (comparatively speaking).

Wow, we can spend trillions on Iraq (we were told would cost $50 Billion max in 2002) and the right cheerleads it all the way. Try to save an American industry with a fraction of that amount or rebuild our own infrastructure and put people to work here in the U.S. and they're bitching worse than Joan Rivers at 'that time of the month'.

#121

Then you admit you contradicted yourself.

According to you, the bailouts were Bush's.. but you never supported the bailouts BECAUSE they were Bush's (only Afghanistan and Bin Laden, remember?)... yet you claim you supported the bailouts to save the industry.

Schizo much?

#122

Sorry, AU... there was nothing about the auto industry in that original TARP bill that you are going on about. The vote for the auto industry inclusion came later, and was voted on the lines that I showed you.

You can't take the original vote, and the apply the voting lines from that to the later addition of the auto industry.

Trying to do so is dishonesty.

Then you say you never supported the bailout since you also claimed it was Bush's plan.

MOOMAN

I never said that. I do oppose how recklessly Paulson dealt with our national treasure - same boards, CEO's, business models at all too many bailed out companies.

Only one auto industry bailout was voted on, and it was a small percentage of the money given to point to the auto industry. Bush gave GM their first $17 Billion out of TARP. Not the last money they got.

Dec 16th, 2008:

White House Opens Tarp to Auto Industry After Congress Fails to Approve Loans

www.articlesbase.com

Face it... on this issue, Bush was a DIEBT (Democrat In Everything But Name).

Take your Terry Schiavo off life support.

#55 | Posted by moomanfl at 2009-06-02 01:06 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Bwhahahahaah How quickly the Right Wingers want to place Dubya in with the Democrats and wash their filthy dirty hands of Him. Bwhahahahaah too fucking funny. He is one of Yours Moomanfla take ownership of THAT why don't You. Oh and DIEBT does not stand for Democrat In Everything But Name because Name starts with an N and not a T. Oh and it's Terri Schiavo NOT Terry Schiavo.

Larry

Only one auto industry bailout was voted on AFTER this

That was over a small additional loan (comparatively speaking).

Nothing small about it.

We were also told we HAD to bail them out to save them from going bankrupt... yet they still went bankrupt. It seems they were wrong about the results.

Insanity is repeating the same actions expecting a different result.

Time to get off this carousel... not continue to ride hoping it won't go in a circle this time.

Dec 16th, 2008:

White House Opens Tarp to Auto Industry After Congress Fails to Approve Loans

www.articlesbase.com

Which is what the Democrats were voting to happen.

The Republican's are the ones that stopped it from passing.

Bush sided with the Democrats. Not the majority of Republicans which is what I was saying this whole time.

Thanks for making my point for me.

BTW... why did the Republicans vote against it? Because they said we would be throwing cash at a problem to avoid bankruptcy that would only result in a bankruptcy anyway.

Care to guess who was right?

Now the Democrats want to go around on that carousel again. The definition of insanity.

Sorry, AU... there was nothing about the auto industry in that original TARP bill that you are going on about. The vote for the auto industry inclusion came later, and was voted on the lines that I showed you.

Nope. The Auto Bailout was voted down by Congress. Bush gave them their first $17 Billion out of TARP after that vote. More has followed - from TARP. Other bailout money came out another fund after the three CEO's testified (remember the 'they jetted in' debacle?)

Thank God the Obama Admininistration has demanded accountability, replacement of management and boards, and a fair stake in companies bailed out. Paulson's handling of TARP funds was like Trick or Treat with no accountability. Funds intended to loosen credit were paid out in bonuses or acquisitions of other banks.

Try the Googles. Your memory needs refreshing.

Democrat logic on the bailouts:

DOCTOR: The gangrene is getting really bad, we need to aputate your foot.

PATIENT: But I NEED that foot. Put some Neosporin on it.

DOCTOR: But, if we don't aputate now it will spread to your leg.

PATIENT: Bullshit! The Neosporin will save it.

DOCTOR: If you don't aputate it will eventually kill you.

PATIENT: You don't know what your talking about. Neosporin promotes healing. My foot will be saved!

DOCTOR: Don't you remember we went through this same argument with your other foot last week. You lost your whole leg when the Neosporin didn't work.

PATIENT: This time will be different.

BTW... why did the Republicans vote against it? Because they said we would be throwing cash at a problem to avoid bankruptcy that would only result in a bankruptcy anyway.

Wrong. Because dipshits like Shelby of Alabama (who've given subsidized Japanese automakers hundreds of additional hundreds of millions in tax credits, abatements, etc) and don't want Detroit to succeed.

Why? Because the unions are onto the GOP's lack of interest in American workers well being and don't vote for them.

TRILLIONS for Iraq and not a peep from the right. Billions to save our own industries (so far for GM 2.5% of what we have and will spend on Iraq) and SCREAMS!!!!! Anti-American is what I call it.

Whose the REAL patriot? The one who wants to save American jobs, that's who.

How Iraq's Trillions COULD have been spent

Calculations by Harvard's Linda Bilmes and Nobel-prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz remain most prominent. They determined that, once you factor in things like medical costs for injured troops, higher oil prices and replenishing the military, the war will cost America upwards of $2 trillion.

Tell me what's logical about supporting a $2 Trillion war we didn't need to fight and then opposing 2.5% of that amount to save hundreds of thousands of jobs in the U.S.? You do realize that the domino effect of that would be devastating, right? Foreclosures, bankruptcies, further falling home prices, welfare and medical care expenses for the newly unemployed.

Same crowd opposes spending money to put people to work rebuilding America's infrastructure, but didn't utter a peep about rebuilding Iraq's.

The war we were told wouldn't cost more than $50 Billion and last more than 6 months (although they knew damn well better). They wouldn't even spend the money to armor troop transports as hundreds were being blown up by IED's. Same crowd rooted for those morons in the Bush Administration, but whine about saving American industry.

MOOMANFL

Sleep. Read. Ponder. You for America or against it?

Wrong. Because dipshits like Shelby of Alabama (who've given subsidized Japanese automakers hundreds of additional hundreds of millions in tax credits, abatements, etc) and don't want Detroit to succeed.

Wow... Shelby alone was responsible for shooting down the bill? Who knew?

Why? Because the unions are onto the GOP's lack of interest in American workers

Bullshit. GM management put their head in the noose... but the UAW supplied the rope and helped kick the chair away. They all had a part in this. As Spud put it, greed, sloth, and hubris were to blame and both management and the UAW had it all in spades.

Billions to save our own industries...

Terry Schiavo of the Democrats. Trying to save a lost cause against all reason.

Whose the REAL patriot?

REALLY???? Are you REALLY going to pull out the "your not a patriot" card? Bwahahahahahahaha

Puhleeeeez. That is, like, so 2004.

I would say not wanting to bankrupt the rest of the country trying to save an industry that can't be saved is just sanity. Trying to throw MORE money at a problem to stop a bankruptcy... going bankrupt anyway... then wanting to throw more money at it is insanity.

Your method had its shot... it failed.

Calculations by Harvard's Linda Bilmes and Nobel-prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz remain most prominent.

Ok.. you want to appeal to authority? Lets see what the exact same Nobel Prize winning Economist has to say about the auto bailouts. (You really need to pick your sources better)

Nobel Prize winning economist opposes auto bailout

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winning economist and co-author with Linda Bilms of the "Three Trillion Dollar War" (2008) favors Chapter 11 bankruptcy for the auto makers, rather than a bailout...www.nashvillefiles.com

Sleep. Read. Ponder.

I am beginning to question which one of us need sleep more.

Quoting a Nobel Prize winning Economist to support your position when that person opposes the auto bailouts?

That sounds like a post from the depths of exhaustion to me.

It is especially exhaustion on your part when Stiglitz was mentioned earlier in the thread in two long posts.

I would say not wanting to bankrupt the rest of the country trying to save an industry that can't be saved is just sanity.

Ya, sure. 1,000,000 people out of work for X number of years getting welfare (and their families). Add it up. "Same difference" as my dad used to say. Except in Option A people are working, keeping their homes, spending money, and paying taxes. The main Republican opposition to the Auto Bailout bill that failed was from Republican Senators in Japanese auto making states. I know it, you know it. It isn't a secret.

Yes, I'll pull out the "Patriot Card". You act as though 2004 was a century ago. I can remember stuff from when I was 2. 5 or 6 years ago is a cinch.

I thought elephants had good memories. The GOP should change their mascot to a dinosaur. America doesn't like 'em anymore for very good reason: The parsing, paradoxical actions and rhetoric that have left this country in the worst shape in a generation - all accomplished in a few years when it needn't have been so. Give yourself a pat on the back!

Yes, I'll pull out the "Patriot Card". You act as though 2004 was a century ago.

It was a ridiculous argument then... it remains so now.

And then you try to use Stiglitz to bolster your pro-auto bailout position.... CLASSIC!!! Heh heh

I would say not wanting to bankrupt the rest of the country trying to save an industry that can't be saved is just sanity.

I would say not wanting to bankrupt the rest of the country trying to save another country that may not be saved is just insanity.

The GOP did a terrific job of bankrupting America. Clinton handed Bush a plan to pay OFF the national debt by the end of this year. Bush and the GOP squandered our national treasure. Give me Clinton's economy and common sense any day of the week over the idiot that just left the WH.

A mountain range isn't large enough to hold the contrition the GOP should hold for all too many things that have left us in a perilous state and bankrupted America. But, they're far too arrogant to ever do that when they can blame anyone else and then talk about letting the largest American manufacturing sector go down in flames.

The UAW never had a say in what the Big Three built. Not a word. But, they were the foundation of the American middle class - one that's disappearing faster than our treasury or the Bush White House backup tapes did.

I thought elephants had good memories.

I do... evidently you don't. I never used the "patriot" argument. It was stupid then, it is stupid now.

That argument was one of the reasons I don't care to much for Hannity... now you try to be just like him. In-fucking-credible.

The GOP did a terrific job of bankrupting America.

Along with the Democrats that voted to pass every spending bill for the war.

Own it.

But, they're far too arrogant to ever do that when they can blame anyone else and then talk about letting the largest American manufacturing sector go down in flames...

over a small percentage of what we've already spent in Iraq, Medicare Part D, or bailing out banks and Wall Street that saw little if any oversight the last 8 years. Take your pick.

Good night.

The GOP did a terrific job of bankrupting America.

Along with the Democrats that voted to pass every spending bill for the war. with little logic in his arguments.

Back to that bullshit again, eh? What were we supposed to do? Not fund the military?

It's a waste of time to debate an ideologue.

Sleep well. You're a decent person, but terribly jingoistic.

The UAW never had a say in what the Big Three built. Not a word.

Already shown to be false earlier in the thread since the UAW lobbied to support import tariffs that kept a good market for American SUV's and trucks.

They did everything they could to keep the market trends going for exactly what GM was making.

What were we supposed to do?

Not vote for something you thought was wrong and damaging to the country.

Guess you couldn't do that. Instead you went with politics over what you thought was right.

Own it.

It's a waste of time to debate an ideologue.

Pot meet kettle.

Hint... I would saying calling a person "unpatriotic" for not agreeing with you is a mark of an ideologue.

You're a decent person, but terribly jingoistic.

The only one talking about patriotism was you. I ridiculed its use in this argument.

Furthermore... you are the only one that was bringing up war or foreign policy. I never tried to tie a position to war and foreign policy to this debate. That was again, all you.

Incidentally it was also a huge deflection. You tried to justify this spending by pointing to spending the past you thought was bad.

One incident of bad spending doesn't justify another.

It simply means you haven't learned your lesson from the first time. Next time petition your Representative to not authorize the spending you think is bad. If you fail to do so, then you are simply choosing politics over what you think is right.

That is the definition of a hack.

You are also a decent person, so maybe tomorrow, or sometime down the line you will think of this and it will make a difference in how you choose to react.

The only one talking about patriotism was you. I ridiculed its use in this argument.

Forgive me if I think saving American industries and millions of livelihoods, rebuilding our own country, and preserving the middle class is more patriotic than spending $2 Trillion on a war in Iraq all but the dullest right wing nitwit were screaming was the all important benchmark of patriotism a few short years ago (My how they change their tunes!).

I know it's awfully hard wrap your mind around, but America is more important to me than Iraq - the all important effort to the right wing just a short time ago, and one they never uttered a peep about as we blew through trillions. But, spend money HERE? On US?

Screaming like a banshee.

Here is an interesting question. Since the American Taxpayer now owns 60% of General Motors wouldn't You say that since they already own 60% of a GM Vehicle they should only be required to pay the remaining 40% difference?? Just curious on what Y'all think.

Larry

It's a waste of time to debate an ideologue.

Pot meet kettle.

#147 | Posted by moomanfl

No. Pot (me) meet someone who doesn't handle logic well when it comes to taking care of Americans well being and making that the priority. Right wingers had their flags waving as thousands of our soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed and we spent trillions.

Their sense of logic:

Excursions in foreign nations that cost trillions: Logical
Saving Americans livelihoods and an "Americans First" mentality: Illogical

saving American industries and millions of livelihoods

You have no evidence that other businesses won't replace the ones lost. You have no evidence that the people will not be able to find other jobs they are qualified for.

Speculation in order to generate fear of opposing your position is called fear mongering. You are above that. Act like it.

rebuilding our own country

Obama himself said this spending rate is unsustainable. Continuing to throw money at failed businesses will bankrupt the country... not build it. Continuing the same practices over and over in hopes of getting a different result in insanity.

and preserving the middle class

Continuing the policy of out of control spending will destroy the middle class... and everyone else with it.

is more patriotic than spending $2 Trillion on a war in Iraq all but the dullest right wing nitwit were screaming

The war is a deflection. If you think this spending is fine, then defend it on its merits. Pointing to an example of what you think is bad spending in order to justify it is irrational. One bad thing doesn't justify another.

Also, I never used the patriotism argument in regards to the war except to praise our troops. Yet you continue to use this argument with me. Your Kung Fu is weak.

I know it's awfully hard wrap your mind around

See my previous Kung Fu statement... ad hominem attacks are typically the sign someone that has been attacked, or of a weak argument on the part of the attacker. Considering I have not questioned your intelligence, I think we can figure out which it is.

but America is more important to me than Iraq

Again with the deflection. You are the only one bringing Iraq up as if it means something to your argument. Bad doesn't justify bad.

6 million jobs at at stake if the American auto industry fails. Say an average family of four for those workers: 24 million people needing public assistance, families losing their homes. Right wingers will call 'em "deadbeats" in a heartbeat. Their version of 'The American Way". Point and say "THEM!"

Your job could be next, although you don't realize that.

someone who doesn't handle logic well when it comes to taking care of Americans well being and making that the priority

Major straw man.

You and I have a disagreement as to how best to advance the welfare of Americans.

However you called me an ideologue while presenting an ideologues ad hominem against me. (unpatriotic)

As I said... pot meet kettle.

You have no evidence that other businesses won't replace the ones lost. You have no evidence that the people will not be able to find other jobs they are qualified for.

Sure I do. You don't get out of your state much do you? Just go to the former industrial center of our country, take a long drive, and tell me the hundreds of huge plants aren't shuttered and collecting spiders and dust.

You're talking like a guy who needs sleep an eye opening road trip out of GA.

And yes, it's entirely fair to bring up Iraq or many of the other hugely expensive undertakings that haven't benefited Americans at all but cost us trillions while you argue we shouldn't spend a fraction of that to save millions of American jobs IN America.

Flying a flag off your front porch doesn't make you a patriot. If you don't give a crap about Americans and what little remains of our industrial sector you're a patriot in name only. Rah Rah Siss Boom Bah.

As I said...

What'd you say? Sorry, my eyes are glazed over by your lack of empathy for Americans.

jobs at at stake if the American auto industry fails.

So you say... with no evidence they will remain out of work.

Interesting how that number jumps though. First it was "a million counting suppliers" then it was "hundreds of thousands of jobs" in your #133. Now it is 6 million.

Which ignores the fact that some auto companies like Ford refused the bailout and are pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. I hardly think your alarmist claim of the whole industry disappearing bears the weight of scrutiny. As one closes, it reduces competition for the others. That means the customers from one have to shop at the remaining ones.... increasing their business and creating jobs.

Sorry, my eyes are glazed over by your lack of empathy for Americans.

Wow... you just won't stop insulting me just because I don't agree you are right in how best to help America.

And you call ME the ideologue.

I'm going to bed. I have reached my limit tonight debating right wingers who spout rhetoric and display a distinct lack of support for fellow Americans - except in slogans and flags.

Night.

Just go to the former industrial center of our country, take a long drive, and tell me the hundreds of huge plants aren't shuttered and collecting spiders and dust.

One close business means more business for its competitors. This creates jobs as they have to be able to handle increased demand for their product.

Did you ever take Economics 101? I bet that Nobel Prize winning Economist does... you know... the one you quoted that actually disagrees with you about the auto bailout?

I'm going to bed. I have reached my limit tonight debating right wingers who spout rhetoric and display a distinct lack of support for fellow Americans - except in slogans and flags.

And I have had my limit of debating hypocritical left wingers that call someone an ideologue while spouting the most ideological bullshit, then lie about them claiming "flag waving" when they are the only one talking about anyone's patriotism.

Talk about rhetoric... your post was a classic self-retort.

Sorry, my eyes are glazed over by your lack of empathy for Americans.

Wow... you just won't stop insulting me just because I don't agree you are right in how best to help America.

That isn't an insult. It's 4:34 in the morning and you're still arguing we shouldn't save 6 million jobs that will NOT come back at any point in the near future. Thousands of plants are shuttered, yet you propose somehow thousands more will magically retool and make something else. Huh?

If you feel insulted because I've spoken the truth about the need to preserve 'The American Way' and middle class, the fact plants are shuttered all over formerly thriving areas in this once booming country where people could make a living wage, and that you appear to show little empathy or concern for your fellow citizens because they don't live next door or in a Red State, that wasn't my intention. It is what it is.

I have reached my limit tonight debating right wingers who spout rhetoric and display a distinct lack of support for fellow Americans

Come on, AU.

Protectionism doesn't work; it only makes matters worse. Protectionism breeds inferior products and gross production inefficiencies. Prolonging the fall through protectionism only worsens the fall when it inevitably happens.

This drives to the core of competition and the root of economics. In human terms we'd call this 'tough love'.

My point being, one can favor a competitive ecnomic model without hating the American worker.

Save 6 million jobs?

What you are advocating won't "save" anything - it'll keep those 6 million employed a bit longer and that's it. Sadly, GM is the Titanic. Throwing a couple of hundred more buckets aboard to bail out the unending flow of water only prolongs the inevitable - to the tune of tens of billions of dollars to the taxpayer.

For the final time, goodnight, MOOMAN.

Hope things pick up for you. I wouldn't count on it if things continue their current trajectory. Trucking will suffer more and more as more and more of our industrial and manufacturing base disappears.

It's egregious that tax CREDITS were given to companies to move overseas, and that America's spent her treasure in ways that haven't left us better off one iota.

Ronald Reagan once asked in a debate, "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?" The answer for America after 8 gluttonous, uncaring years of GOP dominance and misguided priorities is a firm, factual, sad NO!

your lack of empathy for Americans

So you saying that I don't care about Americans (or did you think "lack of empathy" meant something else?), that I am unpatriotic, etc. was meant to be a compliment?

And you say that I am the ideologue that talks in slogans?

you appear to show little empathy or concern for your fellow citizens because they don't live next door or in a Red State, that wasn't my intention. It is what it is.

#163 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

My neighbor (and good friend) behind me works for an automotive supplier that just declared bankruptcy. If he loses his job he and his family are royally screwed. My neighbor (and good friend) next door works for GM. If he loses his job his standard of living drops considerably - his only child is about to enter college and, unfortunately, his house is likely worth less now, even after all of the upgrades, etc. than what he paid for it new. Fortunately, his wife has a full-time job as well.

This all in the blue state of Michigan.

you're still arguing we shouldn't save 6 million jobs

You keep changing the number. That is a major sign that you haven't thought your argument through: you can't even agree with yourself on the facts.

It's egregious that tax CREDITS were given to companies to move overseas

I agree. Did I ever state my support for this practice? If I did, I am sure you can show me my statement doing so.

However, you still deflect. That has nothing to do with continuing a failed strategy by continuing to throw money in the billions at failed businesses.

Save 6 million jobs?

What you are advocating won't "save" anything

How do you know? To not do so will guarantee the industry's demise

- it'll keep those 6 million employed a bit longer and that's it.

Again, how do you know? What would you be saying if it was YOUR family's future at stake through no fault of your own?

Sadly, GM is the Titanic. Throwing a couple of hundred more buckets aboard to bail out the unending flow of water only prolongs the inevitable - to the tune of tens of billions of dollars to the taxpayer.

They're restructuring, they have a new CEO, they have business the world over. You'd better hope they survive or you'll be begging someone to buy your house at a loss when you lose your job eventually. Can't move now because your house is upside down and no one is buying? Multiply that by millions more.

I still get back to the fact the right wing rah rah'd us spending untold amounts of money in the name of 'Democracy', but are more than willing to turn their backs on their neighbors and/or fellow citizens over a pittance in comparison. Go figure.

Night y'all.

"Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?"

At the rate Obama and the Dems are increasing the debt and throwing what money we have at failed businesses, you better pray nobody asks that question in 3 1/2 years.

JEFF

If we weren't in a deep recession you might have a point, but we are. To lose millions more jobs at this point doesn't make sense. Not when we've already lost millions and millions of manufacturing jobs the last 8 years that will never come back.

Christ, Jeff, you live in Detroit. And yet ...

Dare you to put a bumper sticker on your car saying what you typed here.

At the rate Obama and the Dems are increasing the debt and throwing what money we have at failed businesses, you better pray nobody asks that question in 3 1/2 years.

Just like a right winger to fall back on the usual right wing talking points.

Fuck, Bush (your man) was handed a country in good shape by Clinton who handed Bush a plan to pay OFF the national debt. Blame your right finger for pushing his button, dude. Obama didn't create this mess, and you'd sure as hell had better hope and pray he can get us out of it.

Save 6 million jobs?

So how many jobs? a million? hundreds of thousands? 6 million? From reading your posts on this thread I can't tell because you keep changing the number.

Any proof that many will be lost if we don't throw money at them? Ford isn't taking the money... are they included in your number? How about Toyota which employes American workers in the US? How about Honda which does the same?

There are just too many holes to take your assertions as other than fear mongering.

You'd better hope they survive or you'll be begging someone to buy your house at a loss when you lose your job eventually.

I would tell you where you can put your "too big to fail" argument... but it wouldn't be nice. So I will just call bullshit instead.

but are more than willing to turn their backs on their neighbors and/or fellow citizens over a pittance in comparison.

You just can't accept that someone else has put careful thought into their decision, and right or wrong came to a different conclusion than you. It is just easier for you to make assumptions about who they do or don't care about.

You know what, AU. Fuck you and the high hobby horse you sit on.

I thought you were a decent person, but a decent person doesn't consistently make assumptions like this, lie about things they have said after repeatedly having been corrected, and level attack after attack because you are evidently just to fragile to handle an opposing argument.

I was wrong. You aren't decent. You are just a pathetic little sniveling asshole that thinks calling someone "unpatriotic" is the height of wit.

To not do so will guarantee the industry's demise

Wow..The WHOLE inustry??? Ford, Toyota, Honda too? Nobody will buy their vehicles putting their American workers out on the street if GM disappears? There will never be another American car company?

To hell with being nice when you have continually slapped me in the face on this thread.

You, AU, are a moron if you believe your above statement.

MOOMAN

Oh, gee, now I won't be able to sleep (snark). I didn't call you names, I just called a spade a spade.

Ya, it's unpatriotic to not be supportive of Americans, which is very evident in your position on saving any American jobs. 6 million is the number of jobs that will be lost if the American auto industry goes under (including all the related industries such as suppliers that will also fail) according to Nobel Prize winning economists. I read that just tonight (see, I research my facts). The numbers of direct losses from auto manufacturers is of course lower.

I am and have been a decent person. I can't help it if you're so tired and off the mark on this issue that you take offense at the truth: Standing against efforts (miniscule in comparison to Iraq and other right wing boondoggles) to save an American industry or American jobs could and should be considered unpatriotic in these times of deep recession. It was during the Depression when we all cared about each other - unlike these "It's all about me and mine!" mentality.

Staying up to get the last word? Help yourself. Here's mine: You're alright, MOOMAN. Just completely and utterly self serving on the issue of saving American jobs when we can - especially in these times.

AU,

If we weren't in a deep recession you might have a point

Politically, Team Obama had to do something. I understand this. Having said that, they are propping up a failed business model on our dime. Get the government out of this. Let the bankruptcy system work its course and everything will turn out better than what government can 'manufacture' (pun intended).

I created a user-blog with this article awhile back:

detnews.com

I know you are beyond-tired, but please read this article with an open-mind. The Obama administration may very well have the best of intentions, but they are treading into extremely dangerous territory regarding 'Government Motors'.

To lose millions more jobs at this point doesn't make sense. Not when we've already lost millions and millions of manufacturing jobs the last 8 years that will never come back.

If the business model is failed, government can't do anything but prolong the inevitable collapse at the expense of almost everyone else.

Let it fail - it already has.

In the process, GM will re-emerge far more leaner and more competitive. In the meantime, Ford will prosper and has positioned themselves to do just that. A year ago, shareholders voted big bonuses for Ford Executives because they put 'Ford on the right track toward success' - this was during a year of record losses. I mocked the bonuses and castigated this as corporate bullshit. Now, it appears that the stockholders may have been correct all along. If Ford can survive the next 12 months without government assistance, it will become a powerhouse in the auto industry.

Wow..The WHOLE inustry??? Ford, Toyota, Honda too? Nobody will buy their vehicles putting their American workers out on the street if GM disappears? There will never be another American car company?

Who's going to buy them when even more millions are out of work? Auto sales are half what they were a couple years ago - all auto sales. People's credit scores are falling as they fall behind all over the country. Lenders aren't lending. I could care less about Japanese auto manufacturers. They subsidize their U.S. operations and have used dirty ploys to gain market share (thus plants here to circumvent tariffs)>

It isn't just GM. Chrysler is in the same boat. Ford will follow as more and more people can't qualify for new car loans or decide to keep theirs a few more years.

You're tired. Get some sleep. No need to start in on the name calling and tirades. See you later.

And with that I'm turning off my computer. You may have the last word ....

it's unpatriotic to not be supportive of Americans...

It's not either/or, AU.

You are sounding like George W. Bush: "You are either with us or against us."

A myriad of principled arguments exist that are contrarian to the automotive bailout model that are anything but anti-the-American-worker.

Get some rest, my friend. You are letting emotion rule your arguments - a natural consequence of sleep-deprivation.

If Ford can survive the next 12 months without government assistance, it will become a powerhouse in the auto industry.

They always have been. But, if the current trajectory of manufacturing job losses across America continues, very few will be buying new cars on $10 an hour wages.

Logic.

it's unpatriotic to not be supportive of Americans...

It's not either/or, AU.

Yes, it is.

PATRIOTISM:

"love for or devotion to one's country"

(which is it's citizens). I happen care more about what happens to Americans than Iraqis or greedy CEO's who don't care an iota.

A myriad of principled arguments exist that are contrarian to the automotive bailout model that are anything but anti-the-American-worker.

Posted by JeffJ

I can just imagine Jeff yelling "let thrm eat cake". Long as Jeff's tax dolars aren't financing it they can go panhandling for all he cares.

Get some rest, my friend. You are letting emotion rule your arguments - a natural consequence of sleep-deprivation.

Didn't get up until late. But, thanks

Just while this 'debate' has been going on the news has been full of stories of plant closings, people crying, and stories of entire towns that have already been going through incredibly hard times the last few years.

I may saunter to bed and read awhile. My feelings of anger are directed at those whose gross negligence and/or outright greed has been decimating the American middle class. $10 an hour is NOT a living wage in 99% of the country.

And also those who were hunky dorey about trillions spent on GOP boondoggles, but don't support fellow Americans in keeping their homes and families together.

MOOMAN

Like I said, have the last word. I don't care. You're over the edge now. I"m turning my computer off. You're just getting plain abusive and incoherent.

Later.

$10 an hour is NOT a living wage in 99% of the country.

Understood - but it's better than unemployment. Manufacturing compensation (wages + benies + etc) have been artificially high for a long time. $50K + full benies to stand on a line and repeatedly turn a wrench for 40 hours per week with 5 weeks vacation per year plus 10 sick days and 5 floating holidays + government holidays is unsustainable in a competitive market. I would gladly give my left nut to make reality otherwise, but it just isn't.

What we are experiencing is market-adjustment. Acknowledging such isn't shitting on the American worker; it's acknowledging reality.


And also those who were hunky dorey about trillions spent on GOP boondoggles, but don't support fellow Americans in keeping their homes and families together.

#186 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

The GOP is currently out-of-power for a reason. They are beyond shitty and their lack-of-power reflects the will of the voter. Having said that, please don't use the GOP's abhorrence as an excuse for Dems to fleece us just as the GOP did. Please be critical of the Dem Congress. PLEASE be critical of the Obama administration.

$50K + full benies to stand on a line and repeatedly turn a wrench for 40 hours per week with 5 weeks vacation per year plus 10 sick days and 5 floating holidays + government holidays is unsustainable in a competitive market.

50k isn't even that much nowadays. What do you suggest 25K with 5 vacation days and minimal insurance? I think what you find is that you would get higschool dropouts at the car factory that don't give a shit how the car is built because they themselves are trying to get a better job.

Rasta,

I am the primary wage-earner and I make less-than $50K. I have a 4-year degree from an esteemed liberal arts college and am solidly classified as "white collar". Yet, I make less than $50K per year with shitty benies.

My point being - don't play the victim-card with me.

Going further, I don't blame the government for my woes. I have yet to establish myself and that is on me. However, don't take someone who hasn't even finished High School and decree that he is entitled to more earnings than me simply because he has darker skin than I.

I am more than happy to compete. In fact, I look inward when it comes to my current financial woes. Having said that, don't stack-the-deck against me, or anybody else, based solely upon pigments and/or genetalia.

fuck obama motors the best new car out there is the ford fusion 41mpg city and36mpg highway.700 miles on a tank of gas and it's not a little box like obama motors will be making.

I never said anything about race or gender. Just because you get paid shit doesn't mean people at the car plants should.

"I have yet to establish myself and that is on me. However, don't take someone who hasn't even finished High School and decree that he is entitled to more earnings than me simply because he has darker skin than I."

Wow if that isn't the classic strawman I don't know what is. Seeing how all I said was that car plants will get what they pay for. If you pay shit you attract shit.

How old are you? I would have thought you would have established yourself 20 years ago.

Just because you aren't making a decent salary don't get mad others are.

50k is 24.00 an hour roughly. Somebody who has been at GM for 20 years has every right to expect 24.00 an hour.

support private enterprise,buy FORD.

American Management reports to the Royal Scam on Wall Street. They are focused on their stock price and bonuses. They would always rather do a deal (flip and/or reorganize) which pays commissions than bother themselves with the dirty details required to actually run a company through good and bad times.

The problem is much bigger than GM. Cooking the books is the quickest way to huge bonuses. JP Morgan was instrumental in facilitating Enron's fraud. But, apparently they are untouchable. Until CEOs and the co-conspirators on Wall Street are prosecuted and DISENGORGED, things will only get worse.

"However, don't take someone who hasn't even finished High School and decree that he is entitled to more earnings than me simply because he has darker skin than I."

And don't assume that a college degree entitles you to more income than someone without one. Some of the smartest, most capable people I have known had no degree and some of the dumbet folks on earth brag about the degrees they hold. American business today is obviously not competitive and I often wonder if it isn't due to the reliance upon degrees as qualifiers instead of experience, ingenuity and creativity.
It could be said that MBAs destroyed American business.

It's a waste of time to debate an ideologue.

#144 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2009-06-02 04:31 AM

Classic.

re: MM's suggestions - all of them are good, none of them will see the light of day. Goodnight.

Always blaming the Unions ALWAYS. It nevehjr fails with the right wingers.

Larry

#33 | Posted by LarryMohr

You blame the Unions too; and I can prove it.

Forced to make a choice, would you choose A or B:

A. Have your roof repaired by a non-union contractor for $4,500.

B. Have your roof repaired by a union contractor for $6,150.

People spending their own money are more likely to answer A.

People spending other peoples money are more likely to answer B.

That's the problem.

Politicians support Unions.

Real people support the lowest bidder.

Michael Moore is FUCKING FAT!

"Based on my track record..."
These 5 words really say it all!! His track record is lies and fairy tales. Did you see that hack job he did about Cuba's health care system?
There are many things that killed GM and the AWESOME union had a larger role than most and now they are crying because they "negotiated" themselves out of a job or a pension. It is horrible that all these people are now out of work or losing their retirement, but it was TOTALLY SELF INFLICTED!!!
What a douche bag.
Bad science, bad "facts", bad "documentaries", oh yeah... and he is a lard ass!!

Ummmmmmmmmm I wouldn't hire it done I'd do My roof Myself. I've done it before I can do it again. I wouldn't hire anyone to do it. I'd take the insurance money alotted for the labor and spend it someplace else. That was an easy question bendor.

Larry

Michael Moore has a rude awakening coming when the U.N. places him on a forced diet...

...to "combat" climate change.

Mike's carbon footprint must be enormous.

Can't be bigger than his ass.

Ummmmmmmmmm I wouldn't hire it done I'd do My roof Myself. I've done it before I can do it again. I wouldn't hire anyone to do it. I'd take the insurance money alotted for the labor and spend it someplace else. That was an easy question bendor.

Larry

#202 | Posted by LarryMohr

Wrong answer Larry.

Do you answer all "easy questions" wrong?

The GOP is currently out-of-power for a reason. They are beyond shitty and their lack-of-power reflects the will of the voter. Having said that, please don't use the GOP's abhorrence as an excuse for Dems to fleece us just as the GOP did. Please be critical of the Dem Congress. PLEASE be critical of the Obama administration.

#189 | Posted by JeffJ

Since Bush left office, the Congress and the White House is now responsible for the mess, for the clean-up, and anything they do that increases the mess.

Why hire something done if You can do it Yourself?? That seems awfully stupid now doesn't it??

Larry

Why hire something done if You can do it Yourself?? That seems awfully stupid now doesn't it??

Larry

#207 | Posted by LarryMohr

Okay nitwit.

The question was rhetorical. Replace "roof" with "air conditioning tear out and re-installaltion". Or, "swimming pool construction".

Does that help?

The question was rhetorical. Replace "roof" with "air conditioning tear out and re-installaltion". Or, "swimming pool construction".

Does that help?

Posted by BENDOR at 2009-06-02 12:37 PM | Reply

I'd hire a local unionized Air Conditioning installer. After all they are licensed and bonded and do better work in My opinion. Sure it may cost more but You get what You pay for usually.

larry

'd hire a local unionized Air Conditioning installer. After all they are licensed and bonded and do better work in My opinion. Sure it may cost more but You get what You pay for usually.

larry

#209 | Posted by LarryMohr

Great. I don't believe you, but great.

Now, lets consider quality ratings on new vehicles. What about resale values?

Say, Toyota (non-Union) vs. GM (Union)?

You can't really be suggesting that products made by Unions are higher quality than products made by non-Unions - can you?

Please, I'm all ears! Post some evidence for this!

Well, golly gee, if Michael Moore claims a role in GM's demise then the workers and shareholders and bondholders should extend a hand of thanks for his accomplishment. I'm certain also that the towns that housed suppliers, who were the basic source of income in the towns, have citizens who are certainly appreciative of Moore's efforts in their behalf.

Did he do good or do bad for the people of this country by participating in the dispatch of the evil GM? Hmm.

It's sort of like an environmentalist, who succeeds in preventing use of arable land as an assault on the natural order, man destroying the pristine status of the land, and so interfering with nature, and as a consequence of implementation of the dream circumstances he has contrived, the community members starve to death for lack of sufficient food.

Good going Michael.

But anyway, you made a quick buck.

Just a reminder folks

Johnson = Horace

Johnson isn't Horace.

Johnson isn't Horace.

#212 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Oh yes he is. I know this.

The unions collected their retirement benefits in advance by successfully negotiating wages and benefits that did not permit the employer to be competitive in the international market. Basic semi-skilled labor was paid wages far beyond their value.

Is it the union's fault. No. Emphatically "NO." Their function is to aggressively represent their members. It is the function of management to maintain a viable operation. A contributing factor was the business climate where capability is measured on the basis of quarterly performance, so thus many business strategies are short term. The pressure on management by owners to submit to union demands and avoid the immediate consequences of a strike makes them culpable also.

Will GM go into the tank now as it manufactures putt putts and pays cap and trade expenses?

I enjoy listening to Obama. He glibly makes repeated misstatements as to what is happening and the consequences, and yet the media seems to have abdicated its role of inputting critique of his policies, statements, and demeanor. Why? Why are supposedly sophisticated people in thrall to him? Why aren't his misrepresentations challenged by these "guardians?" Could it be that their models of "How Things Work" has them in ideological bondage, and they are unable to view matters amiss as the prism through which they view matters "corrects" their vision.

OK, Johnson are you Horace?

How do you know he is Horace, JA, and why would he be hiding under a assumed name and totally different posting style?

#199 | Posted by humanear at 2009-06-02 12:14 PM

Michael Moore is FUCKING FAT!

Michael seems to be CELIBATE FAT, a man whose girth and other extraordinary dimensions have him scouring the Kama Sutra for a position that would enable him to participate in coitus, and in the meantime sating his desires with ingestion of food, food, food.

And don't try to compete with Michael Moore. I bet that he can ingest more calories in one day than you can in a week.

I honestly could care less what Michael (No) Moore has to say. He is just yet another fat bastard out there saying whatever is necessary to get attention.

#217

True.

Also, it's interesting that he blames GM for killing off his hometown, but never mentions it was GM that built that town in the first place. It's not like Flint was a shining beacon of hope before GM showed up and crushed it. That town wouldn't have been there if GM wasn't, and now that GM is in the shit, so is Flint. Should we all be surprised by that Mike?

Also, also, when will these dunderheads stop advocating government repurposing of industry in the name of cutting off the advance of global warming? I got halfway through his diatribe and couldn't stand to read it anymore because the sticky, sweaty, filth of the AGW left was slathered over it worse than BBQ sauce on Moore's breakfast rack of ribs. Mass transit doesn't work in 99% of this country you dopes. And even the best projections for the elimination of CO2 make nary a dent in our overall output. Stop advocating an inefficient, wasteful, and irresponsible plan in the name of environmentalism!

What?

No blame for the State of Michigan?

High taxes and government regulations had NOTHING to do with the demise of GM (not to mention every other for-profit corporation in the state)?

Unsupportable wages and benefits had nothing to do with this? Surely, the UAW shares at least some of the blame!?

No?

Yet, fat old Mike only wants to blame GM - that greedy corporation.

I wonder if Mike even realizes that, as he types away comfortably, his own house is filled with products made by for-profit corporations.

I wonder if Mike realizes that if all his for-profit-made-products suddenly all disappeared, his fat and naked ass would plop on the floor!

Nawwwwww - not Mike.

GM could have avoided this takeover if they did not get involved in the derivatives ponzi scheme with AIG. That is where their money went.

This also goes a long way in dismantling the last strong union in the US, the UAW.

GM got two birds with one stone, fleece the people via bailout for their ponzi derivative scheme and destroying the union that was the means to their success.

BOTH sides -- and not just Bush Administration officials -- are guilty. -- Phoenix

I heartily disagree. Paulson should have made everyone aware of the seriousness of the situation weeks if not months before. -- #115 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Makes you wish the founding fathers had written checks and balances into the constitution, doesn't it?

Oh wait...

Well, can't expect a community organizer like Obama to understand Congress's institutional role, right?

Oh wait...

Yes, and Congressional Dems did the Congressional Dem thing and gave him whatever he asked for. -- #105 | Posted by Phoenix

PHOENIX Sorry, guy/gal. The blame rests squarely in the WH...

I know this is the right winger's new line: "The Dems voted for it", ... -- #118 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

I'm further left than most in Congress, and certainly a lot further left than Obama.

More of this bullshit line? Same BS as with the Authorization of Force vis a vis Iraq?

Later. Homie don't play that. -- #108 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

You mean "Homer," not "Homie."

What an idiot michael moore is. He wants to criss cross the US with rails like japan has. Hey dude Japan is a small island with 145,882 square miles of land. The US is a huge country in comparison with 3.79 million square miles of land. What a fuckin dope.

Then he wants to build 'alt energy' power plants. Without any techn to do so? And who would buy these cars fat stuff?

The sad part is all the investors who sacrified their life savings, and they aren't even being acknowledged by the zero. He is calling for more sacrifice. Ha

I predict GM will fail again, crushed under their own weight, stupidity, and greed. On the part of Mggtm. AND union

I would like to kick Michael Moore directly in the scrotum.

"I would like to lick Michael Moore directly in the scrotum.

#225 | Posted by fireandsweat"

Well, ask him then. Maybe he'd be into you.

How many GM's are sold in china? How many in Korea? how many in Japan? Suppose because they aren't allowed in those markets that it regulates which cars they produce?

#7 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-06-01 08:51 PM | Reply

One of the most popular car lines in China is Buick.

General Motors also has a stake in Hyundai in Korea, and a partnership with Isuzu in Japan. They share technology, engineering, parts, etc.

GM is allowed in those markets. Ignorant fool.

OK, Johnson are you Horace?

How do you know he is Horace, JA, and why would he be hiding under a assumed name and totally different posting style?

#215 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Well one thing is syntax and certain key words. I went deeper though but I won't reveal all my secrets here. It is definitely Horace though.

RIP;

next time, try to make a quality product instead of useless garbage.

lol@ them killing the EV1 and then killing themselves

Comments are closed for this entry.


Drudge Retort

Home | News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | DMCA Compliance | Copyright 2012 World Readable