Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, May 31, 2009

Abortion doctor George Tiller, among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortions, was shot and killed this morning at his Wichita, Kan., church. Authorities were called to a shooting at Reformation Lutheran Church in the 7600 block of E. 13th Street at 10:03 this morning.

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herm will be in mourning.

WOW

I think this guy was scum for doing what he did but he did not deserve to be murdered.

Damn RCade, did you really have to change my headline right off the bat?

For the record, I submitted this story under the headline "Abortion Doctor George Tiller Killed." The "at Church" was not a part of it, although I can see how that inclusion makes it more "interesting."

I wonder how he managed to resolve his job with his belief system...

Or..

Did his church hold the view that abortion is not a sin and that it is a woman's right to choose?

or..

Did they have prayer meetings where they would hope that he'd turn from his sinful ways and stop performing abortions?

Actually, I wondered at the moniker "Abortion Doctor"--just seems so inflammatory. But maybe it's just blunt. He's known as that, so he gets called that. Language is politics, though.

Damn RCade, did you really have to change my headline right off the bat?

OK. I shortened it again. I kept his name out of the headline because I'd never heard of him before this.

He had been acquitted of 19 misdemeanor charges for not getting a second opinion before performing late term abortions. Tiller was a murderer in my eyes -- 19 times.

Wow. Just noticed the giant headline.

So this is what it takes to get a huge headline, but a thread about SCOTUS ruling that the police can interrogate without the presence of council is stuck on the back page.

Mighty fine standards you got there, Rcade. Anything for more ad revenue, eh?

If this is his church denomination, it wasn't absolutely opposed to abortion:

www.elca.org

Murdering an abortion doctor is political violence, Axiom. I think that makes it a big story.

Don't feel bad, Rcade, I wouldn't have known him by his name "Tiller" either.

I kept his name out of the headline because I'd never heard of him before this.

Gotcha. I'm surprised though; I thought he was more well known than that. He was recently (within the last year IIRC) acquitted of charges stemming from his abortion practice.

Murdering an abortion doctor is political violence, Axiom. I think that makes it a big story.

Possible infringement on civil rights affects more than a few people in a small community, Rcade. I think that makes it a bigger story.

I'll not get into a pissing match with you because this is your website. I guess it's just the nature of the beast.

Geeze, could you have made the headline any ((( LOUDER ))) lol


If he hadn't done it that way-what would you guys have to bitch about?

Did they have prayer meetings where they would hope that he'd turn from his sinful ways and stop performing abortions?

Karma

he's known as "tiller the baby killer" because he performed murders on babies in the womb up to the point of birth - he was a contributor to sebelius. he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish.

If he hadn't done it that way-what would you guys have to bitch about?

14 | Posted by frankf55 at 2009-05-31 01:41 PM

It's too early in the day for sunglasses.

The rest of that post was eaten (#15)--I'll try again.

RIP.

If he hadn't done it that way-what would you guys have to bitch about?

We'd just make fun of you.

Tell us a joke, Frank!

Show us how it's done, funny man.

Poor rcade wanted to own a scandal sheet supermarket tabloid when he grew up and when that failed he became a pitiable pretend lib in cyberspace.

"he's known as "tiller the baby killer" because he performed murders on babies in the womb up to the point of birth - he was a contributor to sebelius. he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish."

As one against abortion, let me be the first to say your view is repellent. Abortion is wrong because it is killing. Shooting someone is wrong for the same reason.

Possible infringement on civil rights affects more than a few people in a small community, Rcade. I think that makes it a bigger story.

Both are big stories. I promoted the other one at the same time.

To those of you celebrating this guy's murder: How is that pro-life? He provided a service that was legal in his state. Do you really think it's OK to murder people engaged in legal activity that you find abhorrent? I'm not real fond of people who exploit the gun show loophole and put guns in the hands of people who couldn't get them otherwise. Do I get to kill them?

FOX NEWS especially O'rielly an Hannity have been ruthless in thier condemnation of this Doctor, for doing nothing but follow the LAW an follow his conscience. Now this Doctor is dead because of the hate that Fox News and the Conservative Right had fed to these deranged individuals that carried out this act. Make no mistake this Doctor is Dead because of the PROPAGANDA on the Right an the cheer leading at Fox News. Rest in Peace Dr. Tiller, rest assured that those that help Kill you will have to face thier make someday as well. Everyone of those scumbags at FOX NEWS should sleep well tonight one less LIBERAL to Fuck with, just pathetic.

The rest of that post was eaten....

#19 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

burp

he's known as "tiller the baby killer" because he performed murders on babies in the womb up to the point of birth - he was a contributor to sebelius. he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish.

Nanc, I gotta say...

We may have a great deal in common when it comes to preparations, gardening, enjoyment of the outdoors, etc...

But eesh, could ya tone it down a bit?

church is not a good place to murder people...

6 shots were fired at this pro-choice Church www.eck-ok.org & imbedded it's walls as people were inside it shortly after its opening ~ not far from Prince's Paisely Park www2.bitstream.net in Chanhassen in 1992.

OK. I shortened it again. I kept his name out of the headline because I'd never heard of him before this.

#5 | Posted by rcade

Rcade--

You should change the headline to--

"Tiller the Baby Killer Shot Dead"

He contributed to Sebelius and got off the charges of killing babies coming down the birth canal.

He is a horrible person--BUT--it is not right for someone to go shoot him.

So I guess the score is now

Abortion doctors -40 million babies

Pro-lifers--3 doctors (?) Or is this 4?

Headlines are just fine since there is no sin in any abortion according to the bible at least:>)

Genesis 2:7

Now this Doctor is dead because of the hate that Fox News and the Conservative Right had fed to these deranged individuals that carried out this act. Make no mistake this Doctor is Dead because of the PROPAGANDA on the Right an the cheer leading at Fox News. Rest in Peace Dr. Tiller, rest assured that those that help Kill you will have to face thier make someday as well. Everyone of those scumbags at FOX NEWS should sleep well tonight one less LIBERAL to Fuck with, just pathetic.

#25 | Posted by celisary

Now --everyone pick up their feet for the manure if flowing knee high with this post.

It was the individuals own hatred that fueled the shooting.

Who the heck listens to FOX anyway Celery?

Certainly not you.

"He is a horrible person--BUT--it is not right for someone to go shoot him."

That's really decent of you, Murphy, to defend his right not to be murdered. You must be one of those mythical compassionate conservatives we've heard of but have never sighted.

That's really decent of you, Murphy, to defend his right not to be murdered

You don't?

"FOX NEWS especially O'rielly an Hannity have been ruthless in thier condemnation of this Doctor, for doing nothing but follow the LAW an follow his conscience. Now this Doctor is dead because of the hate that Fox News and the Conservative Right had fed to these deranged individuals that carried out this act."

By that logic, we can prosecute you if someone shoots a Bush or Cheyney. Since when is stating an opinion about a man's highly questionable living "hate?" Get real. And no, I don't listen to Hannity and rarely watch any television news. It's all propaganda for one panderer or another.

www.elca.org

#8 | Posted by rcade

3 conditions:

Physical threat to mother
Rape or Incest
Fetal condition not compatible with life

Compare that with the usual practice of terminating pregnancies because it inconveniences the mother. Like Baby Daddy skips town, or it affects a career choice, or when momma-to-be suffers "depression."

I don't know what Dr Tiller considered justifiable cause for the abortion, but I have doubt that he followed the guidelines of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

The ObamaMamas will avenge his death, of that I have NO DOUBT. How can they go forward with Babbling Boxer's Bill for abortion on demand if they can't protect the butchers who ply the trade?

The one thing they won't abort is their Mission to reeducate the masses in P-C Think.

You don't?

#33 | Posted by goatman

Buzz off, troll. I was talking to Murphy.

"It was the individuals own hatred that fueled the shooting."

& the good doctor gets to meet Jesus now.

What a deal!

Is that good karma or what?...meanwhile the embittered rage on....

Damn that is some huge font rCade, did this guy own you money or something?

Murder is wrong. I guess this guy understands that now.

"He is a horrible person--BUT--it is not right for someone to go shoot him."

That's really decent of you, Murphy, to defend his right not to be murdered. You must be one of those mythical compassionate conservatives we've heard of but have never sighted.

#32 | Posted by nullifidian

You don't?

the church killer Zulu?

#27 | Posted by Axiom

i could if i'd not had a baby at six months gestation - scored five and eight on apgar. she's 16 now and has received only a couple of "bees" on her report card - the rest "aaas"; excels in music and sports - no, this guy gets no slack from me. not that people should go out willy-nilly shooting people they disagree with - that IS wrong and i do admit that, but that's all.

You don't?

#39 | Posted by MURPHY

Another rtard that doesn't recognize sarcasm.

This guy got what he deserved, a date with Lucy Fur.

Lucy Fur: farm2.static.flickr.com

The good doctor was doing a terrific service for mothers in need. Jesus will embrace him in open arms.

HALLELUJAH!

Did they have prayer meetings where they would hope that he'd turn from his sinful ways and stop performing abortions?

The biblical God has no problems with abortion, so I doubt that it is much of a "sin".

The biblical God has no problem telling his followers to kill all the men, women, pregnant women, and children of neighboring tribes. Even tells tham to kill the animals. The biblical God loves klling animals too. Must be fun for Him. When He killed the firstborn sons of Egypt--He included the animals in that too. That'll teach those animals.

No church gives human being status to a fetus.

No church counts a fetus as a member.

No church demands a church burial or service for a fetus.

No government counts a fetus as a citizen.

No science says a fetus should be given human being status.

It could be said that this doctor was doing Gods work, and an evil arm of Satan murdered him.

Or is that her on the right?
images.icanhascheezburger.com

"It could be said that this doctor was doing Gods work, and an evil arm of Satan murdered him."

AMEN

I have no doubt the you Idiots on the RIGHT will find reasons to excuse the MURDER, but like it or not we live in a Country that is suppose to the leaders in the World of LAW. In the United States ABORTION is legal MURDER is not. Fucking deal with it.......

"MURPHY"... I listen to all News, that's how I learn, Try it sometime you fucking Asshole.....FOX NEWS, has spent hours on this Doctor, using thier Network to do anything they could to stop this Doctor, WELL ASSHOLE THEY HAVE SUCCEDDED......FACTS seem to something you on the Right have a difficulty with, WHY???????

he's known as "tiller the baby killer" because he performed murders on babies in the womb up to the point of birth - he was a contributor to sebelius. he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish.

#19 | Posted by nanc at 2009-05-31 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag: More hypocrisy from the Arkansas "Christian" Republican

Celisary, ease off the caffiene a bit.

Celery--you need your meds--can you make it to the medicine cabinet to get them?

This person--the person who murdered this doctor is no more right than the baby killer he killed.

And you go ahead and blame Fox--find the link where anyone told the public this guy should be shot and killed?

After some looking this is what I found. The headline is:

.breakingnews {
font-family: Helvetica, Verdana, san-serif;
font-size: 46pt;
text-transform: uppercase

46 is pretty big, but rcade can go larger if necessary. What news story would rcade deem important enough to warrant even larger font?

He had been acquitted of 19 misdemeanor charges for not getting a second opinion before performing late term abortions. Tiller was a murderer in my eyes -- 19 times.

#8 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009

I agree and I still think that whoever did this also deserves to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.....bring him to texas, we know what to do with murderers.

and to those who think my thoughts are hypocritical...you are wrong...the rule of law applies

This begs the question. To all of those forced birthers out there why do You have a problem with condoms in schools birth control being offered in schools. Things that would PREVENT the necessity of needing an abortion in the first place. THAT don't make a lick of sense if You think about it.

Larry

#48 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Really?

Why not read your Bible once in a while--

The Bible Regards Abortion as Murder
What the Bible says are the responsibilities of civil authorities in upholding justice is a point being missed by some people in the pro-life movement in particular and by the public in general. The Bible commands the civil authorities to administer justice "upon him that doeth evil" (Rom.13:4).
If Christians do not report very clearly about what the Bible says is sin, then the people will never know how to repent. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom.3:20).

The Bible has always regarded abortion - killing the child in the womb as murder, a crime punishable by the death penalty. The grounds for this judgment are "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex.20:13); Child Sacrifice, "he shall surely be put to death" (Leviticus 20:1-5); and Exodus 21:22-23, where an example of abortion is found:

"If men strive, and hurt a women with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life" (Ex.21:22-23).
In Exodus 21: 22-23, the Bible sets forth a minimal case with larger implications for justice to be served by the civil authorities:
(1.) "If men strive... ."
The plural "men" is employed for the purpose of speaking indefinitely, because there might possibly be more than one person involved in causing injury.

(2.) "So that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow... ."
An example of a premature birth. Even if no injury results to either mother or child, the man who causes the "premature birth" is liable to be fined and, in fact, must be fined. The Bible strongly protects the pregnant mother and her child, so that every pregnant mother has a strong hedge of legal protection around her.

(3.) "And if mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life... ."
An example of accidental abortion. If the penalty for an "accidental abortion" is so severe, it's obvious that a deliberately induced abortion is strongly forbidden. It is not necessary to have a separate ban on any form of deliberate abortion since the maximum penalty is served by this statute. If man through his own reckless actions, unintentionally hurts a pregnant mother and causes her to abort a child, he must suffer the death penalty. How much more so for any person who intentionally induces an abortion?

(4.) "if any mischief follow... give life for life."
The Bible strongly protects human life from the moment of conception. With the phrase "if any mischief follow," the child has equal protection under the law from the moment of conception "life for life."

God does not make exceptions that tolerate injury to any pregnant mother, or any child in the womb. In fact CURSES "come upon" and "overtake" nations that refuse to administer justice (Deut. 28:15).

www.covenantnews.com

"Flag: More hypocrisy from the Arkansas "Christian" Republican"

C'mon, Sam, you should know by now the Bible isn't for reading or adhering to. It's only to be used to thump others.

and I see that celisary and sam are in full glory with thier rotted out ideas on this issue.

two facts remains....he MURDERED innocent children and whoever killed him MURDERED him......

they both should rot in hell and there is nothing inconsistant or hypocritical about that..

also...NOW HE knows if it was murder all those times because he has now answered to a higher authority than the american legal system.

He had been acquitted of 19 misdemeanor charges for not getting a second opinion before performing late term abortions. Tiller was a murderer in my eyes -- 19 times.

#8 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009

well, certainly Tiller pushed the envelope...but Jesus will embrace him just the same!

#58

What a selective pile. It must be convenient ignoring the fact a fetus wasn't considered a life under Jewish law.

"This begs the question. To all of those forced birthers out there why do You have a problem with condoms in schools birth control being offered in schools. Things that would PREVENT the necessity of needing an abortion in the first place. THAT don't make a lick of sense if You think about it."

Good question, Larry. I am against that practice because it circumvents parental rights to raise children as they believe. I also do not want public schools slowly turning into public health clinics and day care, which they are doing at an alarming rate.
I further note that with the rise of birth control, unwanted pregnancies also went up. Something larger is amiss when alleged preventatives cause more of the same problem they pretend to cure.

"he MURDERED innocent children"

Sorry...we already have definitions for "murder" and "children", and neither apply here.

"I am against that practice because it circumvents parental rights to raise children as they believe."

Just ask Bristol Palin.

also...NOW HE knows if it was murder all those times because he has now answered to a higher authority than the american legal system.

#60 | Posted by afkabl2

as you will know someday about your some of your Republican former White House occupants?

Is that possible?

lol

#58 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-05-31 02:17 PM | Reply | Flag: Confuses rule of law with primitive superstitious cult.

I hope he wasnt torn apart with forecepts and vacuumed into a bag and tossed into a dumpster...that would be a horrific way to die

#17: The Curse of the Spitting Church Lady. All that vigilante hissing just results in further cementing your reputation of not taking much stock in the teachings from that Mithra yarn you're always blabbing on about. I'd admonish you to turn the other cheek, but it's just as paper bag ugly as the other one.

You could at least say you will pray for him, keeping in mind we know that you have no intention of actually doing so.

"MURPHY".....Nobody claimed that Fox News told this deranged person to kill this Doctor, its the constant feeding of these deranged people with the "HE'S KILLING BABIES, HE'S KILLING BABIES", this is a lie. We are a country of Laws, ABORTION is legal in this Country, if Dr. Tiller was killing babies, he would be in Jail. This is the Law of the Land, you or those Assholes a Fox News may not like it but it is the LAW OF OUR COUNTRY.....

You change Laws by going thru the process, not Killing people you disagree with. Now this is why Sec. Napalitano, Homeland security, has people looking out for those on the Right fringes that think that this sort of behavior is OK. She may start on this BLOG!!!!!HOMEGROWN TERRIORIST WHO WRAP THEMSELVES WITH OUR FLAG AN THE BIBLE, ARE AS BAD AS ANYONE WHO WE BATTLE WITH OVERSEAS.....

Maybe this is just me but why is this such a big deal?

It's too bad the guy is dead, sort of. I mean he did make a living aborting babies. It's not like someone gunned down Mother Teresa here.

This isn't the 1960s people, science has come a long ways. 3D ultrasounds and all kinds of evidence prove conclusively that that thing in the womb is a human and should be given more consideration than a bag of week old garbage.

If you have trouble feeling empathy for the unborn imagine that instead of that being a little baby in the woman's womb imagine its al-Qaida terrorist and Dick Cheney wants to waterboard him.

Wouldn't you do everything possible to stop Cheney? That's how some people feel about babies.

I hope he wasnt torn apart with forecepts and vacuumed into a bag and tossed into a dumpster...that would be a horrific way to die

#68 | Posted by Turd_Ferguson

maybe in his next life...but then it won't hurt at all...NUTS!

I call complete and utter "Bullshit" on Murphy's #58 post.

These passages do not describe abortion at all. A few describe an injury to a woman. Do you understand the difference? Not an "elective abortion" (which is never mentioned in the Bible), but an injury.

It's tough to even find a consensus on what the "King James' English" interpretation of "if any mischief follow" means. Many agree that it refers to further injury to the woman. The words in that phrase are idiomatic to the age.

Most of the so-called "proof" is nothing but cherry-picked verses having nothing to do with abortion. The rest are the few Old Testament laws dealing with injury to a pregnant woman. The writers of the Old Testament probably had no knowledge of herbal medicines that induced abortion, knowledge transmitted from woman to woman only, therefore unknown to the male writers.

So please, spare us biblical quotes that have nothing to do with the subject. You just show your ignorance.

Sorry...#19

#52 | Posted by SamBarber

prove that i've EVER registered as a republican. then prove i DIDN'T vote for that arsewipe jimmy carter. we all make mistakes, sam.

Sorry...we already have definitions for "murder" and "children", and neither apply here.

#64 | Posted by Danforth at 2009

late term abortions....look at an ultrasound and tell me its not a life...it just happens to still be on mothers life support.

and diablo now comes up with a new term for being born..

This begs the question. To all of those forced birthers out there why

"FORCED BIRTHERS"

you mean people who are for life........
what a sadistic term

he's known as "tiller the baby killer" because he performed murders on babies in the womb up to the point of birth - he was a contributor to sebelius. he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish.

#19 | Posted by nanc at 2009-05-31 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag: a "good" "christian"!

PRAISE JESUS!!!!!!!!

How about "Thou shall not kill"?

Is that biblical enough for you cupcake?

nothing but follow the LAW an follow his conscience

horshit.....

I agree with the poster who said something about him getting his brain smashed or tore apart with forceps...........

and DAIBLO...you said the same thing I did

he deserves to die and so does the person who murdered him........

I wonder what his last words were..

OH GOD...help me?
or MOMMA?

or wait a min...I was just kidding..

he MURDERED innocent children

#60 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-05-31 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag

Prove it or STFU.

"look at an ultrasound and tell me its not a life..."

Stop moving the goalposts. You called it a 'child'. The law doesn't.

"you mean people who are for life...."

No, he meant empowering the government to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body, including forcing her to giver birth.

How about "Thou shall not kill"?

Is that biblical enough for you cupcake?

#78 | Posted by MURPHY at

and again we come back to this MISINTERPERATION of this commandment as we have before...

killing
murder

there is a distinction made in the bible is there not?
and I have also read that the jewish word on the commandment has been wrong..that it isnt supposed to say..thou shall not kill,.........

NEWS FLASH

he is still dead...

"he deserves to die"

He was following the law. His murder was not.

Why, why, why, why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place, huh? Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.

Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach 'military age'. Then they think you are just fine. Just what they've been looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life... pro-life... These people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it?They're not pro-life. You know what they are? They're anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don't like them. They don't like women.They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a brood mare for the state.

is a fetus a human being? This seems to be the central question. Well, if a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? If a fetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage they don't have a funeral? If a fetus is a human being, how come people say 'we have two children and one on the way' instead of saying 'we have three children?' People say life begins at conception, I say life began about a billion years ago and it's a continuous process. Continuous, just keeps rolling along. Rolling, rolling, rolling along.

And say you know something? Listen, you can go back further than that. What about the carbon atoms? Hah? Human life could not exist without carbon. So is it just possible that maybe we shouldn't be burning all this coal? Just looking for a little consistency here in these anti-abortion arguments. See the really hardcore people will tell you life begins at fertilization. Fertilization, when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Which is usually a few moments after the man says 'Gee, honey, I was going to pull out but the phone rang and it startled me.' Fertilization.

But even after the egg is fertilized, it's still six or seven days before it reaches the uterus and pregnancy begins, and not every egg makes it that far. Eighty percent of a woman's fertilized eggs are rinsed and flushed out of her body once a month during those delightful few days she has. They wind up on sanitary napkins, and yet they are fertilized eggs. So basically what these anti-abortion people are telling us is that any woman who's had more than more than one period is a serial killer! Consistency. Consistency. Hey, hey, if they really want to get serious, what about all the sperm that are wasted when the state executes a condemned man, one of these pro-life guys who's watching cums in his pants, huh? Here's a guy standing over there with his jockey shorts full of little Vinnies and Debbies, and nobody's saying a word to the guy. Not every ejaculation deserves a name.

...So you know what I tell these anti-abortion people? I say 'Hey. Hey. If you think a fetus is more important that a woman, try getting a fetus to wash the shit stains out of your underwear. For no pay and no pension.'


-GEORGE CARLIN

Prove it or STFU.

#80 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

look at any ultrasound or ask a woman about babies kicking them at this point..
tell them to shut the fuck up...not me.......

Nanc:
what does Jimmy Carter have to do with anything?
Did I write that you registered as a Republican?
No.
You act like a Republican, you walk and talk like a Republican. You're a Republican.

And you're still a hypocrite, and certainly not a Christian in anything but name.

you mean people who are for life........

#76 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-05-31 02:31 PM | Reply |

That wouldn't incude you. Tell us your view on Capital Punishment? How do you feel about killing someone who has broken into your house? How about fair punishmnt for terrorists?

You aren't for LIFE.

You are for CONTROL.

"How about "Thou shall not kill"? Is that biblical enough for you cupcake?"

How about the fact they weren't referring to fetuses, or the fact Jewish law NEVER considered a fetus a child? Is that historical enough for you, Einstein?

And another thing for people who read the Constitution--

Please read Article I, which says:

"We the people of the US, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our [POSTERITY], do ordain and establish this CONSTITUTION, for the US of A."

What the heck does POSTERITY refer to? What does POSTERITY mean? Does it refer to the right of privacy that is held so sacred as something to honor? No, it refers to FUTURE GENERATIONS. Look it up any way you want.

The Constitution is for the citizens of the womb--try to spin the word POSTERITY above to mean something other than the citizens of the womb!

I mean if the Constitution refers specifically to future generations that should certainly take precedence over a penumbra for the right of privacy to abort a baby, that doesn't exist at all in the Constitution.

No, he meant empowering the government to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body, including forcing her to giver birth.

#81 | Posted by Danforth at 2009

I Want to run that red light
someone wanted to kill this sonofabitch

so why cant I do whatever I want to behind the wheel of my car

the government wont even let me drive with no seatbelt in violation of my right to privacy..

and you say a woman can KILL an innocent life....

nonsense...

What I find interesting about Christians citing the old testament, is how they conveniently ignore large portions that conflict with their own lifestyles such as mixed fiber clothing, pork consumption, shellfish consumption, stoning poorly behaving children, hairstyles, etc..... When you call them on it, they claim that Jesus came to bring a NEW testament and the old rules don't apply.

Afk:

"FORCED BIRTHERS"

you mean people who are for life........
what a sadistic term

Afk--While I agree that it's a strange term, the "sadistic" qualifier makes no sense to me. And the (ab)use of language exists on both sides.

If you are pro-life (many of you), why are you anti-social-programs that could help those babies you care about? If you are pro-life, how can you be for the death penalty? If you are pro-life (a much fewer number of you), how can you celebrate the murder of a doctor, even if he practices abortions? (Oh, wait, that last one might be in sync with the pro-death penalty stance.)

And if someone is against abortion because it's murder, why would that particular someone allow for a rape/incest exemption? Seems to me that the strength of that person's convictions would lead to NO exemptions: life is life; protect it. If you're already not caring about the mother's wishes (i.e., calling for abortion to be illegal), why care about other emotional impact arising from being forced to carry it to term?

Oh, hey--here's where "forced birthers" comes from! (Boy, why did that take me so long?) If abortion is illegal, then pregnant women are forced to carry the fetus to term (or to engage in illegal abortion). I just don't think it's simple. And human beings are remarkably inconsistent.

bob

you are being stubborn and whatever you want to call it

I have made my logical and true argument over and over

the jkey word is INNOCENT and you cant change my worsds to fit your argument..

the murderer of this scum is just as guilty of murder but he CHOSE TO DO IT.........he is not innocent.

one thing this should do is ratchet the abortion issue back up since its been put a little on the back burner what with the racist about to be enshrined in the supreme court

And Afk--in #90, you're making no sense. I mean, I can usually parse your posts well enough to get the idea, but this one left me scratching my head.

"and you say a woman can KILL an innocent life...."

It's easy to tell when you know you've lost an argument: you continue spewing debunked bullshit and move the goalposts. Your claim was about murdering children. Obviously, you have nothing to back it up but wind.

Dan--

Go to the link and pick your favorite.

www.prolifeamerica.com

It is not just the Old Testament--but the NT as well.

"the government wont even let me drive with no seatbelt in violation of my right to privacy.."

Flag: Delicious Irony

"If you are pro-life (many of you), why are you anti-social-programs that could help those babies you care about? If you are pro-life, how can you be for the death penalty? If you are pro-life (a much fewer number of you), how can you celebrate the murder of a doctor, even if he practices abortions? (Oh, wait, that last one might be in sync with the pro-death penalty stance.)"

A bit of a leap there. I am pro-life, anti-death penalty, condemn the murder of Tiller and take all these views for the same reason: killing is wrong. Nor is being against abortion any indication someone is against social programs.

#83 | Posted by Danforth

roe v. wade was a "right to privacy" issue, not whether the "baby" constituted being a human. you've obviously never seen one on a sonagram of a baby moving around at several weeks gestation.

there are plenty of former abortion doctors who will beg to differ with others when life actually begins.

this nation is going to hell in a handbasket for the poor decisions we've made. hell unleashed is putting it mildly considering what IS coming.

perhaps the murderer should claim a "right to privacy" for the killing and we can get some case law going on it?

How about "Thou shall not kill"?

Is that biblical enough for you cupcake?

#78 | Posted by MURPHY

Animals have souls...how was your steak last nite?

Murphy,

None of those links address the fact fetuses were not seen as children according to Jewish law.

Please address how something unknown could have been prohibited in a book based on old Jewish law.

It's easy to tell when you know you've lost an argument: you continue spewing debunked bullshit and move the goalposts. Your claim was about murdering children. Obviously, you have nothing to back it up but wind.

#95 | Posted by Danforth at

wrong

my point is that we cant just go do something because its our body or our car...if we could then there would be no drug laws,,,which to a liberal would be just the right thing I know that...

but thats my point and you know it

and bringing up the old argument about capital punishment and acbortion is more of a case of having no argument than anything I have said.

#86 | Posted by SamBarber

fortunately not your call.

"and DAIBLO...you said the same thing I did

he deserves to die and so does the person who murdered him........"

I did not say killing him was right at all. All murder is wrong and especially ones committed to make a political/social statement. This is a grave threat to civil order and the killer(s) need to be found and sent away for life.

#101 | Posted by Danforth

were you ever a fetus, danforth?

To all you "Fucking Terrorist", we live in a Country of LAWS, whether you like it or not ABORTION is legal in this Country, if you don 't like it do what you can to change it. Do you Idiots really believe that MURDER is the way to get change. If you really believe that be careful for what you wish for because the next time it may be that someone who disagrees with you will use MURDER to make a point......

Justifying MURDER, who would have taught that the Republican heathens would have reaches so low...You people are justifying TERRIORISM, even if you wrap yourselves in the American Flag or the Bible, it is still Terrorism as bad as any that our Military has to face overseas, maybe Sec. Napalitano had something when she wanted these Right Wing groups investigated for terrorist activities.....

"roe v. wade was a "right to privacy" issue, not whether the "baby" constituted being a human."

Wake me up when the census agrees.

"there are plenty of former abortion doctors who will beg to differ with others when life actually begins. "

And there are plenty of "others" who will disagree. So what?

"Glen Stocker is pastor of Bible Believers' Baptist Church"

so Murphy is a Baptist?

"were you ever a fetus, danforth?"

When I was, I wasn't counted as a member of the family, as a member of the community, or a member of the country. Were you?

You know what, if this turns out to have been committed by a jealous husband or a spurned lover, all of us will have egg on our faces for jumping to conclusions.

were you ever a fetus, danforth?

#105 | Posted by nanc

millions of times in past lives...hence Gensis 2:7 rocks:>)

he deserves to die and so does the person who murdered him........"

I did not say killing him was right at all. All murder is wrong and especially ones committed to make a political/social statement. This is a grave threat to civil order and the killer(s) need to be found and sent away for life.

#104 | Posted by Diablo at 2009

okay you are right on that one...take out the deserve to die and we are talking the same thing then

they are both guilty but we disagree on punishment then

celis

if you would get your thumb out of your ass you would read that many of us who are PRO LIFE are saying the same thing you are.......well in point anyway.........

"and bringing up the old argument about capital punishment and acbortion is more of a case of having no argument than anything I have said."

Look, Afkabibble, YOU were the one who said MURDER and CHILDREN. You were wrong on both counts. If you want to address that issue, fine. Otherwise, your tap dancing gets monotonous.

When I was, I wasn't counted as a member of the family, as a member of the community, or a member of the country. Were you?

#109 | Posted by Danforth at

so can we take it that these are your definition of life??

because you dont count babies for the census????

Thanks for the clarification, AFKABL2. Hey, is there a AFKABL! somewhere?

What I find interesting about Christians citing the old testament, is how they conveniently ignore large portions that conflict with their own lifestyles such as mixed fiber clothing, pork consumption, shellfish consumption, stoning poorly behaving children, hairstyles, etc..... When you call them on it, they claim that Jesus came to bring a NEW testament and the old rules don't apply.

#91 | Posted by dibblda

ff

Once again...mortal man intervening on behalf of an all powerful omnipresent "GOD" because this same "GOD" according to these right wing bleeding heart knucklehead moral conservatives is in reality powerless against abortion.

A "GOD" who delivers his creation to the Earth to survive by mear lottery or good luck of the draw that we aren't aborted.

This is the insult of all insults !!

"My ways are my ways...and my ways are not your ways"..."Oh yea of little faith"

I meant AFKABL1

abortion is the murder of innocent life in the womb and I dont give a shit what the supreme court has said or will say on the subject
that being said I also believe in the rule of law and whoever did this was just as wrong and should die for it.........

"so can we take it that these are your definition of life??"

No, dumbass, my definition of CHILD. Your word... remember?

hell unleashed is putting it mildly considering what IS coming

#99 | Posted by nanc

OK, we get it. You've been flying high on some backwoods cauldron-brewed Arkansas tweak, hallucinating about gawd for much of the past couple decades; it's not gonna be a pretty hangover.

Could you please stop vomiting all over this thread?

Really, most of us have heard enough about Jesus by now to fill 10 lifetimes...

you mean people who are for life........

#76 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-05-31 02:31 PM | Reply |

That wouldn't incude you. Tell us your view on Capital Punishment? How do you feel about killing someone who has broken into your house? How about fair punishmnt for terrorists?

You aren't for LIFE.

You are for CONTROL.

#87 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

right on!

BULLSHIT BANI

you and bob just cant get the logic or the difference

INNOCENT

CHOSE to kill and then you pay the price.......

its not all that hard...

Really, most of us have heard enough about Jesus by now to fill 10 lifetimes...

#122 | Posted by Zarathustra at

tonight both nanc and I will pray for your soul. its lost as much as this bastard doctors was......

abortion is the murder of innocent life in the womb and I dont give a shit what the supreme court has said or will say on the subject
that being said I also believe in the rule of law and whoever did this was just as wrong and should die for it.........

#120 | Posted by afkabl2

that's what free will is all about. You get to believe in whatever nonsense you want to:>)

WHEW

ANOTHER HEADLINE with posts going fast and furious...now where else can we have this much fun...

"tonight both nanc and I will pray for your soul. its lost..."

And if he'd actually read the Book, he'd know he just committed blasphemy.

I have also read that the jewish word on the commandment has been wrong..that it isnt supposed to say..thou shall not kill,

First stated in the Noachides the prohibition is on Murder, or the wanton killing of another.

Killing is permissible for self defense, the defense of others, and as a judicial sentence for murder.

This is not simply moral law but has been codified in criminal code of every nation.

Aboriginal women did use herbal concoctions to induce a miscarriage, and even murder the child after birth, usually by suffocation. Obviously some haven't progressed much past that point - at least the feminists carry on the "tradition" of feticide and infanticide, and obviously promote it through Planned Parenthood and other "counseling" organizations.

Wonder what the sermon was going to be about today. Physician Do No Harm?

life after life, too, AFKABUSHKILLER2

"tonight both nanc and I will pray for your soul. its lost..."

And if he'd actually read the Book, he'd know he just committed blasphemy.

#128 | Posted by Danforth

ff

"at least the feminists carry on the "tradition" of feticide and infanticide"

Oh, please.

If men got pregnant, abortion would be sacrosanct.

If men got pregnant, abortion would be sacrosanct.

#132 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-05-31 03:

maybe

and if I were a woman there would have been a whore in the family

"Aboriginal women did use herbal concoctions to induce a miscarriage, and even murder the child after birth, usually by suffocation. Obviously some haven't progressed much past that point - at least the feminists carry on the "tradition" of feticide and infanticide, and obviously promote it through Planned Parenthood and other "counseling" organizations."

you didn't mention that in Tibet, they use to put the newborn in the ice cold water. If they survived that ~ they would be hardy enough to survive the harst climate in Tibet.

Survival of the fittest? Well, they knew reincarnation was a fact, too:>)

Nice. I haven't had a big-font thread in as long as I can remember.

"and if I were a woman there would have been a whore in the family"

And you would have had several abortions by now.

life after life, too, AFKABUSHKILLER2

#130 | Posted by Bani at 2009

if you are making fun of life after death, then yes you are correct...
I have every ounce of faith in my being that there is indeed life after death where I will be welcomed by my loved loves which includes my son which also may tell you why I view abortion the way I do..

"A bit of a leap there. I am pro-life, anti-death penalty, condemn the murder of Tiller and take all these views for the same reason: killing is wrong. Nor is being against abortion any indication someone is against social programs."

I know. You saw my "many of you" and other qualifiers, right? I appreciate your consistency. You may well be more consistent than I. But nowhere in my words did I suggest (or intend to suggest) that being against abortion in any indication of being against social programs. I pointed out that the two againsts are present in some people, and that seems a contradiction (hypocrisy?) to me. Many. Not all. Many.

"What the heck does POSTERITY refer to? What does POSTERITY mean? Does it refer to the right of privacy that is held so sacred as something to honor? No, it refers to FUTURE GENERATIONS. Look it up any way you want."

Maybe they were just trying to save their posteriors?

maybe

and if I were a woman there would have been a whore in the family

#133 | Posted by afkabl2

one 'stoned' whore...

"and if I were a woman there would have been a whore in the family"

And you would have had several abortions by now.

#136 | Posted by Danforth at 2009

well you never know now do you..

maybe celisary can tell us what its like to become a woman..........oh...oh...good one

In some Muslim countries it is legal to persecute Muslims who convert to Christianity. Something is legal does not make it morally right.

Even if abortion is legal, it is morally wrong --- unless under rare circumstances the life of the mother is in clear and present danger.

Sebellius, Obama's woman for promotion of baby murder in the womb (the unsafest place for babies with pro-abortion mentality mothers), has one less FINANCIAL backer.

Still, taking the doctor's life this way is wrong. And his pastor may share some blame for not warning Tiller to repent and stop murdering babies before this fateful incident happened.

Thank you, Pragmatist. But that is a common type of fallacy on all sides, like the UWisconsin students blowing up a building because they wanted peace in the 60s. You are right we all need to work on consistency of belief. I changed my death penalty attitude years ago simply because I realized it was incompatible with being pro-life.

"Something is legal does not make it morally right."

I'm sure gay people agree with you.

"Even if abortion is legal, it is morally wrong"

Then don't get one.

"unless under rare circumstances the life of the mother is in clear and present danger."

So rape and incest get a pass?

He will never be convicted, There is not a jury of 12 to be found that can reach a verdict and find this American guilty of getting rid of a pile of dung.
Unless they are all from Big Ears or his Monkey Face wifes family.

if you are making fun of life after death, then yes you are correct...
I have every ounce of faith in my being that there is indeed life after death where I will be welcomed by my loved loves which includes my son which also may tell you why I view abortion the way I do..

#137 | Posted by afkabl2

this former atheist fellow says life after life:>)

"All souls, regardless of experience, eventually arrive at a central port in the spirit world which I call the staging area. Once past the orientation station there seems to be no further travel detours for anyone entering this space of the spirit world. Apparently, large numbers of returning souls are conveyed in a spiritual form of mass transit. Spirits are brought in, collected, and then projected out to their proper final destinations similar to a central terminal of a metropolitan airport that has the capacity to fly people out in any direction. The most outstanding characteristic of this world is a continuous feeling of a powerful mental force directing everything in uncanny harmony. People say this is a place of pure thought."

www.near-death.com

Ahhhhhhh, Christian Terrorism....the irony, the grotesque deliciousness of it all.

I hope these terrorists join our other ones in Gitmo.

Religion: Root of All Evil.

so Murphy is a Baptist?

#108 | Posted by Bani

I attend non-denominational--but the hymns are the same as when I attended a Baptist church. ;o)

"I have every ounce of faith in my being that there is indeed life after death where I will be welcomed by my loved loves which includes my son which also may tell you why I view abortion the way I do.."

Afk, I don't mean to make mock, but was your son aborted? Even if he was (I hope not--that would be beyond awful, assuming you had no part in the decision), what does that mean? Because your personal life went a certain way, you get to make decisions for all? Isn't that what you say them dirty fascistic liberals do? (Oh, I'm sorry. You said "why I view." So you didn't exactly say it's why abortion should be illegal, but you are so adamant and certain in your views that it's hard to tell when you're opining vs. when you're suggesting policy, law, or moral rectitude.) I am a father, too (though my lads are healthy, thank whatever/whomever), and that doesn't mean I am against abortion rights. I have seen many ultrasounds; I know a great deal about biology (including what all can go wrong between conception and birth). I'm still pro-choice. Firmly.

well bani

one thing is for certain..

the doctor NOW KNOWS who is right.........

Religion: Root of All Evil.

#147 | Posted by briwo

that's not the st. paul quote!!!:>)

" I changed my death penalty attitude years ago simply because I realized it was incompatible with being pro-life."

AWESOME. Now can you convince the large numbers of others who aren't there yet? : ) Okay, maybe I'm believing the media, but it seems to me that huge numbers of pro-lifers are not so consistent as you. Ah, not just media--just look at DR. : )

the doctor NOW KNOWS who is right.........

#150 | Posted by afkabl2

and you're left!

#145 | Posted by Badeye

Not so--he or she will be convicted.

They committed murder--to what degree remains to be seen.

"He will never be convicted, There is not a jury of 12 to be found that can reach a verdict and find this American guilty of getting rid of a pile of dung.
Unless they are all from Big Ears or his Monkey Face wifes family."

Are you suggesting that this murderer will not be convicted? Really? Because he killed an "abortion doctor"? Wow. You and I don't live in the same country, then. You really believe they will find him not guilty based on... what? Justifiable homicide? Wow. I'd be interested to see the legal justifications of that.

#58 | POSTED BY MURPHY

Murphy, this article you posted is that author's take on the situation. And it's perfectly valid for him, and for those who agree with it, but it seems to be the sort of thing you'd find if you were looking for Biblical support for a stance already taken.

That's a tricky road, and one that's been taken by anyone from snake handlers to white supremacists, and "average" Christians as well. It's mining scripture to support something you already believe in.

The phrase, "And if mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." is a good example of the kind of justification used by those who murder abortion doctors. But I think we can all agree that the man who murdered Tiller was morally and legally wrong, in the eyes of man and God.

But the example given is regarding accidental injury to a pregnant woman, resulting in either premature birth or miscarriage, not abortion.

I can certainly see WHY a pro-lifer would see those passages and say, "There! It's obvious!"
But that's still THEY'RE take on it.

I'm not sure exactly what "mischief" refers to, as I don't know the Hebrew word used in the original text. In modern times, "mischief" implies intent, but that's not what these passages are talking about.

Jim Rudd, the author of the article you're quoting, states, "The Bible has always regarded abortion - killing the child in the womb as murder, a crime punishable by the death penalty."

But the Bible hasn't "always regarded" anything. It wasn't completed until over 1500 years after the time these "laws" existed. And these laws, in my opinion at least, were for those people at that time. Rudd is welcome to his opinion, and others are welcome to agree with it, but it's still just an opinion.

But it's this kind of opinion that leads others to justify murdering doctors.

Nothing brings out the wackos like a 72 point banner headline

Poor rcade wanted to own a scandal sheet supermarket tabloid when he grew up and when that failed he became a pitiable pretend lib in cyberspace.

I'm pretending to be a liberal?

"the doctor NOW KNOWS who is right........."

That is true, AFK, but as a Christian I am saddened some asshole decided to send a man to judgement rather than give him the fair chance of changing his ways. Why do people think the Almighty does not know what He is doing so they have to help Him out? It is a testimony to the killer's lack of faith if this murder was committed for those reasons.

the doctor NOW KNOWS who is right.........

#150 | Posted by afkabl2

and you're left!

#153 | Posted by Bani at 2009

okay assuming that I and others here are slow

you will have to explain this one

is that supposed to be funny or something

but GOOD NEWS I just saw where an advanced bet of mine just hit for a 200 dollar exacta at woodbine race park in canada so it appears that I am RIGHT ON THIS issue as well as right on that third time lasix for that 9 horse

its so good to be right.......

Chapter 29 of Michael Newton's "Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives" documents one person's experience in a previous incarnation as being aborted & it was really no big deal.

The entity just found a more suitable family to incarnate with:>)

www.near-death.com

#152 | Posted by pragmatist

I used to be solid pro death penalty--about 15 years ago.

I too--have come to re-think it--because it is killing a person.

But in addition it is because of the Innocence (sp?) Project.

I don't think it's right--at all-- for any innocent person to be put to death by mistake, error or corrupt gov't officials.

Just keep them in prison for life--never get out and the society is kept safe.

Now there are times when the crime is so brutal--that I think that person should be put to death.

Justifiable homicide? Wow. I'd be interested to see the legal justifications of that.

#155 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009

I betcha that will be one defense of it dont you think?
If I were a juror I dont think it would fly with me though.
the neighbor who shot the two punks was justified as they were steaking and treatening his life much like the guy just the other day but this is a whole 'nother' thing

Nola Folston is gonna go for the gusto with whoever did the dirty deed. She just doesn't pull any punches.

Larry

Just another angry conservatively challenged (libtard) beating his head against the wall. All pissed off about Fox because he was told it was somehow their fault...because there is no one else to blame.

Some truth to it though...one less baby killing slime bag to fuck with...and good riddance..the world is now a slightly better place.

That is true, AFK, but as a Christian I am saddened some asshole decided to send a man to judgement rather than give him the fair chance of changing his ways. Why do people think the Almighty does not know what He is doing so they have to help Him out? It is a testimony to the killer's lack of faith if this murder was committed for those reasons.

#159 | Posted by Diablo at 2009-05

I cant disagree with anything you say here...

there were plenty of other ways to see that TILLER THE BABY KILLER paid a price for the murders he committed without someone murdering him

I wonder how all this would go down if we found out for instance that the killer was a husband of one of his patients....shit....that would throw the whole thing in a tizzy wouldnt it?

Tom--

Here go pick something out of the 95,000 hits

www.google.com

'Thou shall not kill' about sums it up.

Why not look at the Constitution and posterity?

Now there are times when the crime is so brutal--that I think that person should be put to death.

#162 | Posted by MURPHY

Ted Bundy comes to mind...

"AWESOME. Now can you convince the large numbers of others who aren't there yet? : ) Okay, maybe I'm believing the media, but it seems to me that huge numbers of pro-lifers are not so consistent as you. Ah, not just media--just look at DR. : )"

Well, being one of those evil Catholics the Retort seems to want to protect us all from, I changed because of the tyrannical, fascist Popes who have more and more written against the death penalty. We do try to convince others, believe me, but they are slow to listen and as quick to do wrong.

#163 | Posted by afkabl2

BL--there will only be mitigating circumstances--but there in no way this shooter is going to get off this crime.

They can claim crime of passion--but still serve life in prison versus death penalty.

If they get the death penalty--you can hear it now--the person will be said to be a martyr.

I wonder how all this would go down if we found out for instance that the killer was a husband of one of his patients....shit....that would throw the whole thing in a tizzy wouldnt it?

#166 | Posted by afkabl2

or the good doctor's first abortion reincarnated?

Ted Bundy's alter ego?

Ted Bundy comes to mind...

#168 | Posted by Bani

True

They said the getaway car was a powder-blue Taurus. I'll blame the gays for this one! (Just kidding, just kidding!)

Ted Bundy at 3 was recorded in wikipedia as having kitchen knives around his niece as she was sleeping.

What if a mother to be realise she was getting another Ted Bundy & chose to have an abortion?

Sounds okay to me:>)

34,000 Auto deaths in 2008
28,000 Guns deaths in 2004
1.2 Million deaths by abortion in 2005

HHHHmmmm.....Maybe we should outlaw doctors?

one thing

this is one of the worst things that could have happened to the PRO CHOICE movement....NOT THAT one...my pro choice movement...we CHOSE LIFE

one of worst things to have happen as it puts us in a bad place...this killer didnt realize what damage he could have done to the pro life movement
if he were reading some of the goofball posts from some of our resident knuckleheads, he might have realized that.

there will be babies saved by this bastard being shot but it wont help in the long run at all

ONE WAY....it has diverted attention from my rivITING posts on the sunday nooner for one...........

HHHHmmmm.....Maybe we should outlaw doctors?

#175 | Posted by aclusux

especially when we need all those kids to pay for our social security!

Another martyr to the cause of civil liberties. When will extremists realize that when you murder a person who opposes you, one hundred more rise to take his place?

well moder
thats not exactly what I meant but you are close.

more and more in the liberal abyss, you will find more and more who devalue life as we have seen before.

When will extremists realize that when you murder a person who opposes you, one hundred more rise to take his place?

Correct. Violence against abortion doctors motivates a lot of pro-choice people in this country.

more and more in the liberal abyss, you will find more and more who devalue life as we have seen before.

#179 | Posted by afkabl2

which is why I chose to be born in an atheist republican household this lifetime:>)

thats what Im saying rcade

the worst thing that can happen to us who value life whether its mine or yours or still under mothers life support system.

which is why I chose to be born in an atheist republican household this lifetime:>)

#181 | Posted by Bani at 2009-05-31

republican CABIN maybe

thats a joke.......

BUT SINCE SO MANY OF YOu are here now

I have a really interesting post coming tomorrow concerning info IM learning from the sinatra bio and his links to the mafia and a line that goes straight from the MAFIA TO SINATRA TO JFK...

really insteresting stuff from book written only a couple of years ago
I am sure you join me in being excited about that coming.........

the worst thing that can happen to us who value life whether its mine or yours or still under mothers life support system.

#182 | Posted by afkabl2

I believe most, if not all mothers who chose to have an abortion, value life as much or more than those who wish to control their choices on whether to do so or not:>)

Undoubtedly one of those damun liberuls!!

#167 | POSTED BY MURPHY

While I'm not going to check out all 95 thousand, I'm sure you'll forgive me. I'm probably familiar with most of the arguments, having been raised by pro-life parents. But laws and moral codes aren't measured in Google hits, and I'm hardly saying that Rudd's opinion is unique.

"Thou shalt not kill" does some it up very well, if you interpret "kill" as "murder", and that abortion is murder. Rudd's article attempts to make that case, and I believe it falls short. It's a matter of interpretation. I have no problem with people having that interpretation, but it's not my interpretation.

We can agree, easily, that murder is wrong. But we allow for killing in self-defense, we allow for killing in war, and we allow for the Israelites almost genocidally sweeping through Canaan, killing man, woman, and child. We allow for "Saul killed his thousands, but David killed his ten thousands."

But we do NOT allow for the murder of Tiller, and nor should we. It's not a black-and-white issue, and that's where "Thou shalt not kill" does not sum it up very well. There's still plenty of room for interpretation.

"Why not look at the Constitution and posterity?"
I'm not sure what you mean by this question, so I'll leave it for now.

my dad was pro-choice & a republican donor as well.

He never really forgave his childhood friend Bob Dole for going after an abortion doctor to get his first seat in politics.

Correct. Violence against abortion doctors motivates a lot of pro-choice people in this country.

As you said -- correct. In fact any negative action against a person or group tends to garner sympathy for that person, not support for the others. I've said this many times before.

That is why I find it funny that the left is constantly riding Sara Palin. She is getting more support because of it, not less.

OK, back to the rightie-tightie-Fox-listening-
abortion-doctor-killers. I don't mean to hijack the thread.

When will extremists realize that when you murder a person who opposes you, one hundred more rise to take his place?

So that explains why there are so many Kennedys.

and this from redstate..interesting particuarlly the last line

Promoted from the diaries by Neil Stevens, with a comment: This is apparently not the first time George Tiller has been shot at. He was shot in both arms back in 1993. He also has a history of flouting sensible regulation and oversight on abortion, in a quest to perform as many late-term abortions as possible.

Because of that, combined with the fact that reports say there were steps taken to cut out security cameras, I find it highly likely that this was a politically-motivated shooting. It is entirely the wrong thing to do though, achieves nothing to save lives, and must be prosecuted vigorously. The rule of law matters. After all, how could we even enforce abortion laws if we can't enforce murder laws?

Why not read your Bible once in a while--

I have read it. Better than you it seems. Maybe you need a refresher course.

The Bible Regards Abortion as Murder

Says you--not the bible. God rowns on people wo try to change what the bible says. Haven't you heard?

What the Bible says are the responsibilities of civil authorities in upholding justice is a point being missed by some people in the pro-life movement in particular and by the public in general. The Bible commands the civil authorities to administer justice "upon him that doeth evil" (Rom.13:4).

Rom. 13:4 has nothing to do with abortion, civil authorities , or administerng justice. What bible are you looking at?

Romans 13:4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

To put this in context, it is apart of the bible trying to get humans to put God in charge of their government, and anyone who doen't submit gets damnaton. Nothing about abortion.

If Christians do not report very clearly about what the Bible says is sin, then the people will never know how to repent. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom.3:20).

You miss the point. The law says what is sin. Get it? Our law says abortion is legal. If it is legal--it must not be a sin---according to Rom. 3:20

The Bible has always regarded abortion - killing the child in the womb as murder, a crime punishable by the death penalty. The grounds for this judgment are "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex.20:13);

It would seem to be YOUR interpretation of that passage. If taken literally, you can not kill anything. You have to kill to live. Everything you eat was alive at one time or another, unless you eat dirt and rocks. That would seem to apply to the death penalty also--are you against the death penalty? How aout war? That should apply there also it seems---hve you opposed our involvement in these nedless wars? Or have you been more concerned about fetuses than real human beings.

Child Sacrifice, "he shall surely be put to death" (Leviticus 20:1-5);

There is absolutely nothing in Leviticus 20:1-5 about child sacrifice or abortion. The closest is Lev. 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Which to me seems to be in favor of a VERY late term abortion.

and Exodus 21:22-23, where an example of abortion is found:
"If men strive, and hurt a women with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life" (Ex.21:22-23).

This says that if men hurt a pregnant woman and she loses the fetus, that her husband can punish them according to what the judges dtermine is fair. It is about HURTING the WOMAN, and the punishment is for that--not the fetus. If there is any killing going on over the punishment, then life for life. The fetus is not a factor--the fetus is a long time dead when this comes into play.

In Exodus 21: 22-23, the Bible sets forth a minimal case with larger implications for justice to be served by the civil authorities:
(1.) "If men strive... ."
The plural "men" is employed for the purpose of speaking indefinitely, because there might possibly be more than one person involved in causing injury.

Such as an abortion clinic.

You FORGOT---2.AND HURT A WOMAN WITH CHILD

God doesn't like it when people change His Word--so I've heard.

(2.) "So that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow... ."

An example of a premature birth.

Not at all. The fetus did not survive. If the fetus had survived it would have been put differently. Departed means dead--not just separated. If the fetus would have survived it would have said someting like--"so that her child come early."

Even if no injury results to either mother or child, the man who causes the "premature birth" is liable to be fined and, in fact, must be fined.

There was definitely injury to the mother--which you conveniently LEFT OUT as pointed out earlier. That is the only injury to be fined. The fetus is ignored. If the fetus were considered to be a person, the men who contrived to do the injury would have been stoned.

The Bible strongly protects the pregnant mother and her child, so that every pregnant mother has a strong hedge of legal protection around her.

A fine for injuring the mother and nothing or the loss of the fetus hardly seems "strong protection" to me.

(3.) "And if mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life... ."

An example of accidental abortion. If the penalty for an "accidental abortion" is so severe, it's obvious that a deliberately induced abortion is strongly forbidden.

This has nothing to do with the fetus. The fetus is long dead. This is about the WOMAN. The "mischeif that follows" is her death. If the womn dies from her injuries, those who killed her must die also.

It is not necessary to have a separate ban on any form of deliberate abortion since the maximum penalty is served by this statute. If man through his own reckless actions, unintentionally hurts a pregnant mother and causes her to abort a child, he must suffer the death penalty. How much more so for any person who intentionally induces an abortion?

That is the most twisted interpretaqtion of that passage I have ever seen. The fetus is dead--the fetus is barely a factor. This is all about the woman--not the dead fetus.

(4.) "if any mischief follow... give life for life."

The Bible strongly protects human life from the moment of conception. With the phrase "if any mischief follow," the child has equal protection under the law from the moment of conception "life for life."

That's some leap of logic, since the fetus under discussion has long since been conceived. I doubt you will find "Moment of conception" mentioned anyplace in the bible. Again--God hates it when people chage what He says---so I've heard. "Any mischief follows" refers to the womans death from her injuries---it has zero to do with the fetus.

God does not make exceptions that tolerate injury to any pregnant mother, or any child in the womb.

The biblical God orders the deaths of pregnant women. The biblial God orders the deaths of children.

In fact CURSES "come upon" and "overtake" nations that refuse to administer justice (Deut. 28:15).

28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee

The Ayatollahs spout the same message.

#58 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-05-31 02:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

So that explains why there are so many Kennedys.

#189 | Posted by goatman at

THANKS FOR THE AD

My post on the info from the sinatra bio takes us through a lot of the kennedy camapaign and just to what lengths JOE went to get his son elected.

WATCH FOR IT ON NOONER COMING TO YOU

Karma

#18 | POSTED BY REPUBLICAN4EVER AT 2009-05-31 01:43 PM

No, domestic terrorism.

BOB

DONT EVER BITCH AT ME FOR LONG POSTS AGAIN.....lol

were you ever a fetus, danforth?

#105 | Posted by nanc at 2009-05-31 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Were you ever sperm and egg?

Should women menstruating and guys masturbating get the death penalty by church shooting too?

now your'e getting personal...

That is why I find it funny that the left is constantly riding Sara Palin. She is getting more support because of it, not less.

Fortunately her clan of Wasilla hillbillies open there mouths, get arrested, etc. to counteract that.

seriously

you cant compare dna or some sort of plasmic goo to a form living and being nourished by a mother.

if its nothing while there then couldnt the mom smoke and drink and take drugs
so what about crack babies......if they are just plasm, then what the mother does shouldnt matter either...BUT IT DOES because the baby is a life.

could be a little something to be said about karma, yes?

BOB

DONT EVER BITCH AT ME FOR LONG POSTS AGAIN.....lol

#195 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-05-31 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag

I've never bitchd at anyone for long posts. Long posts don't bother me unless it is repeated again and again. I have no problem skipping them according to the author and if I'm involved or not.

I agree that post was monstrous, but Murphys post was so long to start out with and full of so much bullshit, I couldn't let it ride---someone might have believed what she said.

Tiller the Baby Killer Shot Dead"

and got off the charges of killing babies coming down the birth canal.

He is a horrible person--BUT--it is not right for someone to go shoot him.
#31 | Posted by MURPHY

One of the reasons I am not religious is because I believe some people just need killing.
I do not feel for the death of some people like some of you do.

rwd

suspect in custody:

news.yahoo.com

... hillbillies open there mouths...

LOL

THIS may be a lone nut with a gun who's violent murder of a doctor even Operation Rescue is now calling a "cowardly act", but there are those who are morally complicit with his actions on both sides of the debate.

News organizations who play to the worst instincts of their audiences solely for profit have been named here, but there are also so-called Christians whose vicious demeaning of doctors like this one, who apparently operate within the law, without regard to the consequences of their vile rhetoric AND pro-choice advocates who think that it is enough to make sure abortion is legal and safe without lifting a finger to make sure it is rare.

I have been disturbed lately, beginning with the rhetoric I heard on radio from our new, notoriously conservative Catholic U in south Florida, Ave Maria, (which school I really waned to like) rhetoric denouncing Obama at Notre Dame and then just this week giving airtime to very inflammatory rhetoric by dangerous sounding speakers on their station about the need for people to act regarding the "murder" of millions of innocent "babies".

Which, of course is illegal and anyone who knows of that happening should call a cop.

These folks need to redefine their terms realistically if they wish to be heard by reasonable people, and disassociate themselves form what is really political rhetoric designed to gin up the conservative base.

And moderate and liberal Americans need to give more than mere lip service to preventing unwanted pregnancies and supporting adoption, as some few now do.

This shooter will be caught and convicted if he doesn't end his own life first, and he alone is responsible for his actions, but the lack of reasoned debate that has stalemated progressive solutions for the problems surrounding abortion is on the hands of many.... and the blood of this incident also is on the hands of some few who just stop barely short of public advocacy of it.

herm will be in mourning.

#1 | Posted by nanc

Herm is glad all the unborn babies that went to the ovens are dead.

rwd

Long posts don't bother me unless it is repeated again and again.

LOL Into self abuse, are you spam bob square pants?

"AFKABL2"....You don't have to be a woman to be a WHORE, you seem to fit the bill.....Never question my manhood, if you let your mom or wife call me I can assure you either one will have been with a man for the first time....

were you ever a fetus, danforth?

#105 | Posted by nanc at 2009-05-31 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag

A human being is thought--memories--knowledge--
self awareness--planning future events. I was never a fetus. I was not there.

If you think that human tissue is all it takes to make a human being--you must think someday you will be a corpse.

#207 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-31 04:14 PM | Reply | Flag: LMBFTO!

#209 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-05-31 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag: okay, danforth.

i remember taking my first steps at 14 months...yeah i was a little slow compared to my three who were between 10 and 11 months.

"Well, being one of those evil Catholics the Retort seems to want to protect us all from, I changed because of the tyrannical, fascist Popes who have more and more written against the death penalty."

These are the same ones claiming condoms cause AIDS, right?

Celisary wrote,

"FOX NEWS especially O'rielly an Hannity have been ruthless in thier condemnation of this Doctor, for doing nothing but follow the LAW an follow his conscience. Now this Doctor is dead because of the hate that Fox News and the Conservative Right had fed to these deranged individuals that carried out this act. Make no mistake this Doctor is Dead because of the PROPAGANDA on the Right an the cheer leading at Fox News. Rest in Peace Dr. Tiller, rest assured that those that help Kill you will have to face thier make someday as well. Everyone of those scumbags at FOX NEWS should sleep well tonight one less LIBERAL to Fuck with, just pathetic."

So, if someone shoots Bush, Cheney, or Rush Limbaugh are leftnuts like you gonna take the blame for all the hate speech you conjured up? Of course not you are a liberal fuck and taking the blame is not something you have in your character.

Killing Dr. Tiller was wrong just as killing late term babies is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I mean if the Constitution refers specifically to future generations that should certainly take precedence over a penumbra for the right of privacy to abort a baby, that doesn't exist at all in the Constitution.
#89 | POSTED BY MURPHY

Wow. Talk about making it up as yo go along. What does one thing have to do with another? (And no Punumbra here. Babies are not being killed- fetuses are being aborted. Just like a miscarraige only the woman does it consciously instead of "God" through mysterious ways.) Are you actually trying to make the case that 'future generations' means every possible fertilized egg in America should be brought to fruition? There would be trillions of people in the country.

Is it possible that 'future generations' was refering to the NON-ABORTED, NON- MISCARRIED, NON- DIED DURING CHILDBIRTH citizens? Ya think maybe?

One again Murph- Nanc- Ackfl- If you dont want an abortion- if you think it's killing 'babies', you are entitled to your opinion and by all means- dont have one. But for a bunch of libertarian types who wouldn't want the government in their homes, how the hell can you be ok with politicians deciding what goes on in your body?

MYOB already.

All the uglies are out in full force this day, Nancy naming me in response #1 and RWD/101 wading in with his usual hateful bullshit near the end.

I'm late - I was at church all morning, a church in a denomination which passed its first pro-choice resolution ten years before Roe v Wade; a denomination which lost a member when a 72-year-old former air force lifer was murdered by a "Christian" outside the clinic where he was escorting women past harassment; a church shot up by another "Christian" recently in Nashville

"Herm is glad all the unborn babies that went to the ovens are dead"? There's no such thing as an unborn baby, but surely RWD/101 thinks them thar cowardly fetuses shoulda stood up and fought them thar Nazis. herm

Tiller was only 67.

A little too young to be classified as a late-term murder.

"These are the same ones claiming condoms cause AIDS, right?"

I am old enough to see the difference in society since the pill. The result was more unwanted pregnancies, not fewer. No one has said condoms cause AIDS. They have correctly noted that when the condom is relied upon to prevent AIDS, it seems to have a cheapening effect on behavior that results, paradoxically, in more disease.
Look, disagree with me. That's fine. But also look at the bigger picture and be honest. We as individuals have got to start treating sexuality with the respect it deserves. It is a potent thing when unchecked. Contraception causes a certain disrespect that has deadly, life-ruining effects.
And consider Europe. It is birth-controlling itself to death as a culture. Those countries will be Islamic unless the West wakes up now.

I agree that post was monstrous, but Murphys post was so long to start out with and full of so much bullshit, I couldn't let it ride---someone might have believed what she said.

#201 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-05-31

geesh

the article was right...you lefits, socialists, pinko commie bastards really dont have a sense of humor

AFKABL2"....You don't have to be a woman to be a WHORE, you seem to fit the bill.....Never question my manhood, if you let your mom or wife call me I can assure you either one will have been with a man for the first time....

#208 | Posted by celisary at 2009

I have heard that when you read something like this its like the guys who drive FAST sports cars usually red...
they are making up for having small dicks..

oh oh....oh..I just cant stop the hits from coming...

So, if someone shoots Bush, Cheney, or Rush Limbaugh are leftnuts like you gonna take the blame for all the hate speech you conjured up? Of course not you are a liberal fuck and taking the blame is not something you have in your character.

Killing Dr. Tiller was wrong just as killing late term babies is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

#213 | Posted by buzkiller at 2009-05-31 04:26

god damn

DAMN
DAMNNNITT

boy did you ever hit THIS nail on the head....

great post and I assure you
I will steal the shit out of it........

why the huge banner? why the friggin' gigantic font for a murder?
lots of people are murdered every day....why is this one more important?

Finally some justice for the babies that Tiller the Baby Killer murdered.

"So, if someone shoots Bush, Cheney, or Rush Limbaugh are leftnuts like you gonna take the blame for all the hate speech you conjured up?"

Those three are lucky in that no one on "the left" would waste a cartridge on any of 'em. Bush and Cheney are, figuratively, dead as Hitler and Stalin. Rush keeps rational humans out of the GOP camp.

Murdering physicians is rock bottom. I forgot to mention that my denomination's 1992 general assembly in Calgary featured Dr. henry Morgenthaler, hero of the Canadian reproductive rights movement. He was a survivor of the death camps too, terminating pregnancies because of his love for life and the human race. herm

"I forgot to mention that my denomination's 1992 general assembly in Calgary featured Dr. henry Morgenthaler, hero of the Canadian reproductive rights movement. He was a survivor of the death camps too, terminating pregnancies because of his love for life and the human race. herm"

Really, Herm, how can you call preventing pregnancy or terminating it "reproductive" rights? They are non-reproductive. That's Orwellian!
And what is the difference between a death camp and a clinic where children are killed? None that I can see.

and yet..

you dont have an answer for his charge because you know its right

IF some leftwing kook were to do harm to one of those, the left would NEVER make the charges at least some are making now.....

True. Just look at the statements made a few days ago under the link about Gerald Ford's assasination attempt. I didn't vote for Ford, but he in no way deserved such hostility.
The loons of any stripe always like killing. Sad.

Devil, there's no such thing as clinics where children are killed. You simply must drop the Republican idiocy that fertilized eggs are children.

As for "some leftwing kook" doing in Dubya, Dick or Rush, that ain't gonna happen. Only rightwing kooks murder real people. But yeah, come to think of it, I'd probably just smirk. herm

How about eight-month old children then, Herm? C'mon.

-eight-month old children

That's illegal, unless the mother will die.

Have heard of no slain eight-month-old children, debbil. Eighth month pregnancies are sometimes terminated for medically valid reasons. Your kind gets much mileage from that rare happenstance. herm

Well, Corcky, maybe I should put the question this way: When, in your view or Herm's, is an abortion wrong?
I once shared a place with a guy who got his girlfriend pregnant. He mentally and emotionally brutalized her into getting an abortion. I saw starkly that "choice" is a cynical euphemism in a lot of cases.

I meant Corky. Sorry to misspell it.

It's not about abortion. Some people will quickly make this event into another debate about abortion. But that's not the lesson. The lesson here is that when you have virulent, consistent hate speech directed towards any group (i.e., "murderers", "baby killers" in this case), you feed extremism. You give extremists the "food" their twisted minds require, the tacit permission to engage in their "holy mission" of violence. We've seen it with gays, and, historically, with too many other groups. That's the lesson. Rhetorically you do reap what you sow.

This is an example of extreme right-wing Domestic Terrorism.

I lived in Wichita for a year. Went to WSU for the Aerospace program. Not exactly a place I would want to call home.

We have laws on the books that cover when abortion is appropriate or not. If you don't like them, change them.

But claiming that the abortion issue is about 8 mo old babies is why people don't listen.

The girl in your apartment had a choice. She could have gotten a restraining order. Or maybe you could have kicked his ass.

And you get Black Panthers intimidating voters when you walk around calling any opponent "extremist" and shouting about prosecuting the former administration for "war crimes." Hate speech is on the left, too, DNEGRI. They are just as efficient killers. Just look at Mao and Stalin, both easily as nasty as Hitler. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue," Barry Goldwater said. He was the only Republican I ever voted for.

I asked when you think an abortion is wrong, Corky, not what the law allows. You see, the problem with the pro-choice side is that it refuses to concede abortion can be wrong in any case. That is true extremism.

"You simply must drop the Republican idiocy that fertilized eggs are children."

I'm not a republican Herm, but I DO believe fertilized eggs are children. The heart starts beating at 3 weeks after conception. Most women don't even know they are pregnant yet..but that baby has a beating heart.

That said, I am against the killing of anyone, including abortion doctors.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Devil, in my clinic escort days I once wrapped my arms around a guy who was brutalizing a young lady in the parking lot, and kept 'em there until the law came. It turned out that SHE didn't want to go in. But that's what choice is about, and I presume that most of the People For Choice clinic escort volunteers opposed brutality. I would also sincerely HOPE, debbil, that you don't base your anti-female views on this one instance.

DNEGRI makes a valid point too. These "Christians" kill for "life" just as they screw for chastity and eat for the hungry. No one has yet made the point that if these loonies DIDN'T have the Second Amendment as a cover, one more physician would be alive today. herm

-that it refuses to concede abortion can be wrong in any case.

Current law doesn't allow abortion "in any case".

This is my take on it

www.drudge.com

Finally some justice for the babies that Tiller the Baby Killer murdered.

#222 | Posted by fwthom

Wow, this thread is hysterical.

Literally.

So wot's the scoop?

Some rightwing, gun-clinging, bible-thumping rtard kills an abortion provider at church?

And some on the right seem to revel in his death.

While those on the left note the inherent hypocrisy of the self styled "Pro-Life" crowd having a collective shadenfreudy orgasm here.

That all was kinda predictable.

Here's a question, if the anti Choicers on the right hadn't demonised this guy so much would his murderer even have known who and where he was and even if so would he really have been riled up to commit this fatal act w/o that provocation?

Is the anti-Choice movement with it's vile rhetoric in some way culpable in all this?

While everybody should register moral qualms about abortion especially late term abortion one needs to understand that those late term abortions make up a tiny fraction percentage of the number of abortions done annually.

They are rarely approached lightly and in most cases they are the single most serious, solemn and sad decisions a woman can make in her life.

Keeping abortion "Safe, Rare and Legal" while working to make a society where unwanted pregnancy was less of an issue is the greater moral good.

Shooting Doctors cos yer SOOOOO "ProLife" is just evil.

Cheering on the killer here is morally indefensible.

K?

Be Well.

/Why at Church?
//Did he think the clouds would part and the hand of God would spring out and paste a gold star right in the middle of his forehead?
///"The problem with getting people to believe the unbelievable is that it is just a small step from there to getting them to do the unthinkable"

"No one has said condoms cause AIDS."

Huh? Guess again:

According to the BBC web site the head of the Mozambique Catholic Church believes that some European-made condoms are deliberately infected with AIDS. He further claims that some anti-retroviral drugs are also infected with HIV. Apparently, he believes the European Union wants to finish off the African people. It is not the first time that the Catholic Church has tried to undermine the WHO's efforts to reduce the African AIDS epidemic by using ridiculous claims. Back in 2004, Vatican officials claimed that the HIV virus can pass through microscopic holes of the condom material.

www.whatthefak.com

he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish.

#19 | Posted by nanc

Nanc supports murder? If a family member of yours dies I'll make sure I write something just like you did.

Lisa I wish you posted more. This place isn't the same since you stopped visiting on a regular basis.

Since we are now harboring a Christian terrorist, should we, according to the Bush Doctrine, invade ourselves.

I wonder who is more reprehensible, LZK or NANC?

#19: Christians like Nanc make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

"should we, according to the Bush Doctrine, invade ourselves."

Nah. According to the Bush Doctrine, China should.

"...harboring a Christian terrorist, should we, according to Bush Doctrine, invade ourselves"?

We are already invaded, occupied and enslaved. Just the style is a bit different. Look at the numbers here who continually suggest that women should not control their own bodies. Even Nancy. herm

"Look at the numbers here who continually suggest that women should not control their own bodies."

Here's the thing Herm:

Although I believe abortion is wrong, I don't believe the government should dictate what a woman can or can not do with her body. The decision regarding abortion is between that woman and God...not any one else.

I will say this though...my heart goes out to the men who WANT their child but have no say so when it comes to a woman's decision to have an abortion.

#250 | Posted by herm

i have never suggested that a woman should NOT control her body - i have suggested she not control the body of a helpless being inside her womb.

Herm wrote,

"Murdering physicians is rock bottom. I forgot to mention that my denomination's 1992 general assembly in Calgary featured Dr. henry Morgenthaler, hero of the Canadian reproductive rights movement. He was a survivor of the death camps too, terminating pregnancies because of his love for life and the human race. herm"

No herm, murdering anyone is rock bottom. Doctors have no more right to life than anyone else. Dr. Tiller was hardly a doctor though as he spent most of his time taking life not saving it. Also, terminating life does not prove your love for life. What a twisted sense of values you have.

#244 | Posted by rastaninja

read the rest of my posts - i'll lose no sleep over this butcher dying. the person who did the deed needs to be brought to justice.

from this source:

"Among pro-life advocates, he is famous for the cruelty with which he treats the unborn. No case illustrates the extent of this cruelty better than the tragedy of Baby Sarah Brown, one of his many victims. In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.

Tiller began the abortion by injecting a poisonous syringe through the pregnant teenager's uterus and into the upper left side of the unborn baby's face. He then instructed the teenager to return the next day for the completion of the abortion.

To everyone's dismay, the baby did not die during the intervening hours. After the teenager began to complain of serious abdominal pains, her parents rushed her to a local hospital where the baby was eventually bornalive. The delivery room staff felt that life-support would be futile, so they wrapped the baby in a bassinet without attendance. The teenager and her parents quickly left the scene.

Even without medical care, the baby remained alive. After many hours had passed, the delivery room staff decided to give her treatment. Miraculously, she managed to survive through the entire ordeal. "Sarah", as her adoptive parents later named her, lived until the age of 5, when she succumbed to the developmental harm done to her body during the abortion. The KCl solution that had been injected into the side of her face had left her permanently blind and brain damaged.

Prior to the abortion, Sarah was a perfectly normal baby. The relevant medical records indicate that she had no disabilities or deformities. If Tiller hadn't attempted to poison her, she would be a healthy 9 year old girl with an entire life ahead of her. Instead, she is in a grave.

One would think that Tiller's experience with Sarah would be sufficient to turn his heart away from the evil of abortion. But the experience hasn't changed him in the slightest. To this day, he continues his lucrative career as a late-term practitioner.

When confronted with stories like the story of Sarah Brown, pro-choice advocates usually insist that late-term abortions only occur in extreme, life-threatening circumstances. Until recently, this claim was an easy claim to make. For the most part, objective data on late-term abortion have been hard to come by. The abortion industry consistently refuses to disclose statistical information on the topic.

In the middle of 1998, the state of Kansas instituted a mandatory reporting policy that required Tiller to submit information about the abortions that he performs. The Kansas Department of Health and Environmental Statistics has recently published this information: http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/ hci/absumm.html.

oh, but he was a real swell guy who went to church...puke.

"I have no doubt the you Idiots on the RIGHT will find reasons to excuse the MURDER...Fucking deal with it.............FACTS seem to something you on the Right have a difficulty with, WHY???????"
#51 | Posted by celisary

Why let facts get in the way of a good rant. Are you "on the Right" since, by your definition, you are not basing your accusations on facts but your feelings towards fellow Americans that mean you no harm but do not agree with you?

"oh, but he was a real swell guy who went to church...puke."

Do you go to church, Nanc?

"According to the BBC web site the head of the Mozambique Catholic Church believes that some European-made condoms are deliberately infected with AIDS. He further claims that some anti-retroviral drugs are also infected with HIV. Apparently, he believes the European Union wants to finish off the African people. It is not the first time that the Catholic Church has tried to undermine the WHO's efforts to reduce the African AIDS epidemic by using ridiculous claims. Back in 2004, Vatican officials claimed that the HIV virus can pass through microscopic holes of the condom material."

You did not include the rest of the "logic" from the article you linked. Consider the following from your link,Danforth:

"It is time for the Church to stop spreading lies, for a change, and assist the efforts of WHO through the powerful influence it exerts on the people of Africa. But this is what is all about. INFLUENCE & POWER. At a time when Europe gradually moves towards secular humanism, mainly because of education and previous atrocities like witch burning, Christianity and the Vatican become insignificant and hence powerless. Therefore, it is not a coincidence that the Church has turned its attention to Africa. It is yet another power struggle for dominance in the name of a God, who, most probably, does not exist. That is why the Catholic and Protestant clergy helped both sides of the Rwanda genocide."

I mean, c'mon, can't you find a more reputable source to quote?
I was posting about what the Popes have said on the subject, not every clergyman. The "microscopic holes" thing was actually something even the CDC would admit, which was only a theoretical concern because no transmission cases have been verified except when the condom breaks during use perhaps.
But if you think that bishop has weird views, how about the ones I just took from the same article you recommended? How paranoid can one get about a religion. It sounds like Hitler's foaming about Jews.
As I posted above, however, the issue is respect for the power and dignity of sexuality. Contraception is killing off Europe right now and no one wants to admit it.

#256 | Posted by Lisa

occasionally a non-denom and when we go to our property a little country sobap, but not regularly - we home church and our children have a youth group they attend - why do you ask? personally, i don't like people who hide in church regularly - there aren't enough sinners there for me ::smirk::

I was just curious, Nanc.

Your post #19 took me back.

As a Christian, murder by any reason is wrong.

Hve a gret day.

Nanc is an upstanding member of Fred Phelps congregation.

You do realize that you are supposed to bring people to the faith right Nanc? I can't imagine anyone being inspired to become a christian by your words Nanc. I'm sure your God will have a few words for you Nanc when you die.

Lisa I just posted I missed you. No response? As a christian you need to forgive me.

#259 | Posted by Lisa

then you obviously missed my follow up comment:

"i could if i'd not had a baby at six months gestation - scored five and eight on apgar. she's 16 now and has received only a couple of "bees" on her report card - the rest "aaas"; excels in music and sports - no, this guy gets no slack from me. not that people should go out willy-nilly shooting people they disagree with - that IS wrong and i do admit that, but that's all."

people will glean what they'd like i suppose. i rejoice in the capture of baby rapers too! silly me.

"The "microscopic holes" thing was actually something even the CDC would admit, which was only a theoretical concern because no transmission cases have been verified except when the condom breaks during use perhaps."

Huh? Well, that's not due to what the Vatican claimed was happening. They lied, plainly.

"can't you find a more reputable source to quote?"

It's from the BBC.

news.bbc.co.uk

#260 | Posted by rastaninja

see my previous comment - that's a fine statement coming from someone who thinks everyone right of center needs to die.

"Devil, in my clinic escort days I once wrapped my arms around a guy who was brutalizing a young lady in the parking lot, and kept 'em there until the law came. It turned out that SHE didn't want to go in. But that's what choice is about, and I presume that most of the People For Choice clinic escort volunteers opposed brutality. I would also sincerely HOPE, debbil, that you don't base your anti-female views on this one instance."

That was very noble of you and I applaud your action. But how does opposing abortion make me "anti-female?" I happen to believe half the children killed by abortion might be female and I'd like them to live.
I do, however, reiterate that the "choice" is often coerced emotionally, and what is more anti-female than that? That is why I asked Corky and Herm when they think an abortion is wrong. Even driving a car is wrong under certain circumstances but getting a pro-choice person to admit any abortion scenario might be wrong is like pulling teeth.
That is because they know that once one is accepted as wrong, the whole house of cards starts to fall. When a huge majority of people polled said late-term abortion, especially partial birth abortion, was wrong, the pro-choice people still could not see fit to admit they might be wrong on that.

I only wish death on those that are far right nanc. I don't see any value they add to society.

The "microscopic holes" thing was actually something even the CDC would admit, which was only "a theoretical concern because no transmission cases have been verified except when the condom breaks during use perhaps."

"Huh? Well, that's not due to what the Vatican claimed was happening. They lied, plainly.

"can't you find a more reputable source to quote?"

It's from the BBC."

The initial paragraph in the article you cited noted a story from BBC about the bishop's statements. The story itself, the one you linked, came from a nutty and plainly bigoted rag. I note you evade comment on the rant I clipped and posted from your original link. Is is clearly from a disturbed writer.
And again, I remember when CDC had the same concern about condoms holes and AIDS. It was later dismissed, but does that mean they "lied" too?

Abortion protesters seem to have all the time in the world to stand outside abortion clinics screaming their heads off, and no time to be a mentor to a foster child or adopt one of the millions of kids eligible for adoption in the U.S.

The last evangelical church I attended had a couple dozen adopted Chinese babies and zero children from the millions available in the United States. Guess adopting a foster child doesn't give them that "Hey, look at how wonderful I am!" feeling. Thank god my parents didn't feel that way.

Again to all you Assholes, "IF YOU TRY TO JUSTIFY MURDER, YOU ARE TO FAR GONE"..so fuck all of you......BYE

"Abortion protesters seem to have all the time in the world to stand outside abortion clinics screaming their heads off, and no time to be a mentor to a foster child or adopt one of the millions of kids eligible for adoption in the U.S."

Can you back that up? How can you say they do not help or mentor children? I happen to know many people in the pro-life movement through my church and they are tireless advocates for children. They arrange adoptions and medical care for unwed mothers and they also adopt such children themselves. That kind of statement you made is as much hate speech as anything the extremists on the other side say.

How does opposing reproductive rights make Diablo anti-female? We're not talking about the gender of the fetuses but about the needs of women carrying them and YOU, Diablo, think you know more than they do. When I risk my life protecting them against lunatics who shoot doctors and clinic escorts in Kansas, Florida and Massachusetts, I do so not only for a daughter, a step-daughter and an ex-wife who had to go to Tijuana in the '60s. but because I deem involuntary motherhood as tantamount to slavery and contrary to every decent instinct ever programmed into me.

Diablo speaks of wrongs in very absolute terms, but I'm in no position to say what's right or wrong for anyone. As a male in his eightieth year of life, I'm unlikely ever to require a terminated pregnancy. If I did, I surely hope that I'd opt for an early procedure. That's what Planned Parenthood urges for young women who don't wish to become mommies. herm

Great, wonderful. The murdering devil will hear the screams of those tortured babies in hell forever.

New discoveries in fetal science will soon make...

...abortion today, tomorrow's Slavery issue.

And Abortionists will be vilified in the same way.

Wrong or right. That will be what happens.

i have suggested she not control the body of a helpless being inside her womb.

#252 | Posted by nanc at 2009-05-31 06:13 PM | Reply | Flag

Have one transplanted to your womb. No one has the right to suck nourishment from anothers body without permission. If you caused an accident and were responsible for anothers injuries--should you be forced to give blood? How about an eye or kidney? Or both eyes or both kidneys if that is the damage you did? No--if the life inside her is a human being, then that human has no more rights than anyone else. If she doesn't want him taking nourishment from her--that is her right.

However since no church, nation, or science considers a fetus to have human being status and rights--the point is moot.

I happen to know many people in the pro-life movement through my church and they are tireless advocates for children. They arrange adoptions and medical care for unwed mothers and they also adopt such children themselves.

That's great.

Sorry, you cannot argue with me that Chinese and other foreign infants aren't adopted far more often than foster child who've languished without parents, sometimes for years. Especially older and minority children. You don't often see them in white churches do you?

Bye bye, Tiller the Baby Killer, America's most prolific serial killer.

... hillbillies open there mouths...

LOL

#204 | Posted by goatman

Ahhhh the spelling police.... how nobel.

Bye bye, Tiller the Baby Killer, America's most prolific serial killer.

#276 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-05-31 07:20 PM

Glad to see you cheering domestic terrorism.

"Bye bye, Tiller the Baby Killer, America's most prolific serial killer."

Of the prior 274 posts, about half made some good sense. Then you get fourth grade idiocies by lunatics like this whom NO one could convince that REAL murder is wrong. herm

As a Christian, murder by any reason is wrong.

Hve a gret day.

#259 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-05-31 06:30 PM

Not for Faux Christians. For them the end justifies the means even if it means murder.

As an example, how many Iraqi citizens have died as a result of the invasion to stop Saddam from killing them?

As an example, how many Iraqi citizens have died as a result of the invasion to stop Saddam from killing them?

At least 100,000. 250,000 in 1991-1992 when Bush 41 told them to revolt and we stood by as Saddam's Republican guard murdered them - many times while American pilots filmed but were helpless to do anything as per orders.

If there is a hell, Tiller the baby killer is going to be a 8 month old baby in the womb, safe warm calm.....

And then a buzzing noise will puncture the safe of his life cocoon and a needle will enter his head and suck out his brains, all while he is aware of what is going on.....

Over and over and over, Tiller the baby killer will feel the horrific murder that so many young souls he took we dealt from his own hand.

For all eternity, Tiller the baby killer will reenact the death he brought upon so many thousands of innocents.

Ahhhh the spelling police.... how nobel.

Nope Far from it. And if you've ever read any of my posts,you'd know it.

But when you imply someone is a stupid hillbilly, you'd better have your own bases covered first.

Maybe Lisa's pox on both your houses is as much realism as we're likely to get here from folks who think executing a doctor as somehow comparable to terminating a pregnancy. I'm off to a lawn party starting the campaign to get marriage equality onto next year's ballot. That should just frost the genitalia of my remaining critics. I'll look in on this much later, when you've retired with your pets. herm

"Ahhhh the spelling police."

The word was spelled correctly.
It was the WRONG FUCKING WORD.

But when you imply someone is a stupid hillbilly, you'd better have your own bases covered first.

#284 | Posted by goatman

It was your implication that they are stupid.

Tom--check out post #89 for the Constitution issue.

It was the WRONG FUCKING WORD.

#286 | Posted by Zatoichi at

Ahhhh, the grammar police then?

nO.

iT WAS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT.

~The capitalization Nazis.

"Words have meaning."
~Rush Limbaugh, Very Rich Cynic

As my late father-in-law once commented regarding Rush, "He knows how to build an audience."

It was your implication that they are stupid

That wasn't your implication in post 198? Or is 'hillbilly' a beloved term of endearment and much sought after compliment where you are from?

There's nothing more pathetic than a person who tries to deny the obvious.

Whatever, dude. Maybe you buy your own lies. I don't, and I doubt if anyone else does either.

"how nobel(sic)"

Whatever.

*headdesk*

"Sorry, you cannot argue with me that Chinese and other foreign infants aren't adopted far more often than foster child who've languished without parents, sometimes for years. Especially older and minority children. You don't often see them in white churches do you?"

I don't know if foreign kids are actually adopted more than ones born here, except by Hollywood stars at least. But even if true, could that be because ours get aborted?
What you say about older and minority children is sadly true, I think. If I had the means, I would consider them first. But in reality (and I did work once with an agency that tries to place such children) a lot of them have emotional and behavioral problems most prosepctive parents get cowed by. It is very sad.

#280 | Posted by JimmyWallback

Well--then keep on attacking Christians there Jimmy.

When in fact--this was a murder of that doctor.

The pro-life mantra would rather have a court find him guilty than have him murdered.

Sullivan is already blaming the Christians.

Domestic terrorism.

The shooter should be sent to Gitmo.

"How does opposing reproductive rights make Diablo anti-female? We're not talking about the gender of the fetuses but about the needs of women carrying them and YOU, Diablo, think you know more than they do. When I risk my life protecting them against lunatics who shoot doctors and clinic escorts in Kansas, Florida and Massachusetts, I do so not only for a daughter, a step-daughter and an ex-wife who had to go to Tijuana in the '60s. but because I deem involuntary motherhood as tantamount to slavery and contrary to every decent instinct ever programmed into me."

Unless the pregnancy was by rape, I hard think it is involuntary servitude. We are obligated to help all sorts of others in distress. The law looks at failure to administer first aid as a depraved act, for example. Does that negation of one's right to choose not to render aid to another human also "slavery?" Even if one thinks an embryo or fetus is not human in the fullest sense, no one can deny abortion at least prevents a human life, which is depravity on the same level.
Nope. That's not anti-woman. It is pro-life.
You are right about one thing. People who shoot abortion doctors are lunatics, or psychopaths. They are despicable.

"Long Term Abortion Doctor Killed"

MY DEEPIST CONDOLENCE TO Herm, Sanobama, Danni, Larry (Give me MO) Mohr, Celisary, Daniforth and George (Jerk Off) Carlin. If I was able to pile you all up I would have a liberal pile of shit.

I know you are very upset about the murder of a murderer. I also understand FLOP EARS is very upset, which shows what kind of a president this guy is. I know you will unfortunately find a replacement to continue the murders.

Seems like it's about a once a month event these days: right wing nut shoots someone.

#274 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

is it the "baby's" fault it was in the wrong place at the wrong time? collateral damage?

#295 | Posted by MURPHY

murphy - i don't believe for one second a person HAS to be a christian to believe abortion is wrong.

right wing nut shoots someone

Yup.

Usually with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other and not much grey matter in between 'em.

Spud doesn't just blame the madmen who commit these acts but also the individuals who encourage them and the media that whips them into such a frenzy of psuedo righteous wrath.

And in a church of all places.

Tsk Tsk.

Be Well.

/Should people who shoot other people who are attending Mass be referred to as Mass Murderers or would that just be too confusing?

Seems like it's about a once a month event these days: right wing nut shoots someone.

So it's the left who does the rest of the shootings the other 29 days of the month? How do you know this?

Nance-
A woman in poor health is five-six months pregnant with a baby with no brain. Full term delivery could kill her.

What does she do in God's world?

So it's the left who does the rest of the shootings the other 29 days of the month? How do you know this?

#303 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-31 08:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Name one.

Recently we've had the unitarian church killer who proclaimed his hatred of "liberals", the nut who murdered police officers because Obama was going to "take his guns away", and now the person who offed a doctor who performed abortions, all in the last several months, and I'm probably leaving one or two out.

What have you got?

A woman in poor health is five-six months pregnant with a baby with no brain. Full term delivery could kill her.

What does she do in God's world?

Name it boyd?

The right-wing fringe is going off the rails.

With guns.

Name one.

Name one what?

Name it boyd?

#306 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-31 09:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

You used to be a much more reasonable person. Now it's all personal and reactionary bullshit from you.

#300 | Posted by nanc at 2009-05-31 08:50 PM | Reply | Flag

No baby--no damage.

But from a biblical standpoint--if babies are a gift from God--He shouldn't put them in a womb that doesn't want them.

Name one what?

#308 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-31 09:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just nevermind. Let's just agree that you will insult me personally I will try to ignore the stupid things you type and your complete inability to understand the comments of others with whom you disagree.

Seems like it's about a once a month event these days: right wing nut shoots someone.

I'm still wondering how you know the left is responsible for the shootings that take place the other 29 days of the month.

Have a good night, bloggers. Hope Monday doesn't suck.

Both the left and right have their nuts, BETELG. I lived through the years of carnage wrought by idealistic Weathermen and SDS freaks who succeeded in derailing Humphrey's bid for president and gave us Nixon. I also draw a line about ideology. How is Hitler more evil than Mao or Stalin?
Everyone take a deep breath, think about it and do an old fashioned examination of conscience. Murder, whatever the reason, is wrong. I refuse to excuse the ones who kill for "my side" because, if they kill, they were never on my side.
Politics makes strange bedfellows, but so does this feigned morality on BOTH sides of the abortion issue.
No matter left or right wing nuts, they are nuts and all of us must condemn them without hesitation.

P.S. I meant people like Tiller who killed obviously "viable" humans, too. I just wish the pro-choice people had the backbone to admit he is as sick as his murderer. It is as much feigned morality to defend him as it is for some of the loons posting above who defend his murderer.

"Hope Monday doesn't suck."

Weekend story:
Took daughter car shopping in my C4S; The black Carrera attracts car salesmen like honey.
She settled on a VW Jetta TDI wagon; Cash.
I feel successful; It's a tiny amount of change for her yet the fact it's half the Audi and gets 40 MPG EPA swayed her.

Drives nice, too.

Off to Denver for #1 son's MS grad this weekend.
www.zcuisineonline.com

It is unfortunate when a murderer gets murdered?

"It is unfortunate when a murderer gets murdered?"

No, it's unfortunate when the rule of law is raped by mentally retarded shit like you.

1: And I lived through years of carnage wrought by Johnson and Nixon and Kissinger. What's your point, Diablo? The SDS "Freaks" wanted McCarthy not Humphrey btw. The Weathermen wanted a new society.

2: And would somebody get OssieOswald pregnant please so he can better put himself in the place many women find themselves?

3: This guy was murdered by lunatics who are beyond dumb, their feeble minds enflamed by zealots to make them feel important.

is it the "baby's" fault it was in the wrong place at the wrong time? collateral damage?

A mass of undifferentiated tissue does not make a "baby". Unless you're a propagandist.

It is unfortunate when a murderer gets murdered?

Unless you sympathize with domestic christian terrorists, it is.

I agree about LBJ, Kissinger and Nixon, SITDOWN. But Humphrey's candidacy was destroyed by the Chicago riots. My point, which you asked for, is that violent nuts destroy their own side. People like Tiller totally turn off people who might support Roe v. Wade otherwise. People like Tiller's murderer make those like me seem "extreme" when I in no case condone such actions.

Oh, and SITDOWN, regarding Ozzie: who's going to bell the cat?? Yuk! That would finish second only to being Phil Spector's prison husband.

Have a good night, bloggers. Hope Monday doesn't suck.

Posted by BetelG at 2009-05-31 09:10 PM

Good night, BetelG. Hope your day goes well for you tomorrow -- even if it IS Monday!

I've got a meeting at 9:00 a.m. and it only gets busier after that for the rest of the week.

Zombie, what does "undifferentiated tissue" mean? Is that like "non-viable" and other such Soviet terms?

"Who was Christin A. Gilbert?"

KSBHA Cover-Up
Media Blackout
No Sedgwick County Investigation

"She was again sent back to her hotel, which doubled as both labor and recovery room for Tiller's abortion business."

"Christin's family once again took her to WHCS where, according to the autopsy report, "she became unresponsive....At 8:48 AM on Thursday, January 13, a 911 call was placed by Tiller employee Marguerite Reed, who was evasive with the dispatcher and placed him on hold for 45 critical seconds while she inquired about how much she should tell him. Reed pleaded with the 911 dispatcher, "Please, please, please! No lights, no sirens!....All the blood vessels in her reproductive organs were clotted...Christin was given pain medication, but little else could be done. She was pronounced dead at 4:14 PM, January 13, 2005."
www.justiceforchristin.com

Doesn't sound very legal to me.

"Woman Says Late-Term Abortion at George Tiller's Center Nearly Killed Her"
"The injection allegedly caused sepsis, a systemic infection that rapidly spreads throughout the body and can cause rapid death."
www.lifenews.com

"Woman Tells TV Show About Horrible Late-Term Abortion Experience"
"On the third day, Tiller came in and injected into the amniotic sac saline solution which suffocated and burned my baby to death," Kelly said."
"She described an assembly-line abortion process in which, on the fifth day, women are herded into a room and told to lie down on beds. Tiller's staff would go down the line of women checking which ones are dilated enough to have the abortion and take them in to complete it."
"Dickerson told Fox News that the final part of the abortion process consisted of going into a bathroom and leaning on a nurse as she delivered her dead baby into the toilet."
www.lifenews.com

"We have strong reason to believe that the KSBHA investigation was tainted by political influence and cronyism."
http://www.lifenews.com/ state1669.html

Can you say Kathleen Sebelius"


Is that like "non-viable" and other such Soviet terms?

Undifferentiated means precisely that... cells that have not adopted a specific tissue fate.

Even once tissues have begun to develop, you can't claim that an embryo or fetus is equivalent to a human being.

What do the Soviets have to do with this? You don't like abortions and russkies?

Or is it that Russians play lots of chess, and words longer than two syllables are likewise too daunting for you to cope with?

This man was apparently a "late term" abortionist. I do have reservations about this procedure, since there's a substantial amount of nervous tissue present by the third trimester.

Still... not murder.

Or is it that Russians play lots of chess, and words longer than two syllables are likewise too daunting

Imagine being from Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwy rndrobwllllantysiliogogomgoch, Wales - the longest town name in the world. Must frustrate customer phone reps to no small degree.

Hahaha

Sometimes justice is swift and comes with a bullet to the head. Goodbye Tiller the Baby Killer.

Innocent blood cries out from the ground.

Human blood was shed today,
Just as human blood is shed in every abortion.

Tiller's human heart stopped,
Just as every abortion stops a beating human heart.

Satan tried to murder Jesus as a baby, Moses as a baby, 1/3 of my generation as babies--it never works. Jesus and those who deliver their nation will survibve, now just as then.

there's a substantial amount of nervous tissue present by the third trimester.Still... not murder.#328 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-05-31 10:02 PM | Reply

Human blood shed,
Measureable brain waves,
Pain levels that are CLEARLY detectable,
A unique human DNA ended,
And horrible devestastion to the woman who had the abortion.

It's worse than a simple murder.

Sometimes justice is swift and comes with a bullet to the head. Goodbye Tiller the Baby Killer.

#331 | Posted by fwthom

Ok. It's Official..... FuckWit Thom.

For only a true FuckWit advocates vigilante justice.

Congrats, DimWit! (second runner-up name)

Of all the stupidity in this thread (and I read the whole damn thing), this one stuck me as the most funny. ... No one has the right to suck nourishment from anothers body without permission... -- if the life inside her is a human being, then that human has no more rights than anyone else. If she doesn't want him taking nourishment from her--that is her right.

#274 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

This, from the same group that says not only do we have to "shut the fuck up" about this killing, but they expect us to pay for it with tax dollars.

But, hey, if we took his / her / its statement literally, no one would have to EVER pay any taxes... cause no one has the right to "suck nourishment from anothers body without permission".

Doesn't that just scream WELFARE!!!!!!!!

Oh, and I am not happy Tiller was murdered, but I have a brother that was born at an earlier period than he routinely performs abortions on... and my brother is now 35.

1LIBERTARIAN - I think you just told us your brother performs abortions.

Finally some justice for the babies that Tiller the Baby Killer murdered.

#222 | Posted by fwthom at 2009-05-31 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ahhhh....there is it! The logic that it's OK to kill civilians because it's what YOU believe in.

You know, Al Qaeda uses the same logic. Why do you love the terrorists so much?

"...Jesus and those who deliver their nation will survibve, now just as then...| Posted by kirk"

Holy Crap! What a Moron!

My brother was delivered when he was under 7 months gestation. Dr. Tiller, from all reports, will perform an abortion with no medical necessity up until the moment of birth.

Most, if not all, of the abortions he performs are on people who would otherwise be breathing today.

And for everyone who uses the argument that a child in the womb is not legally a person, I would remind them for a number of years, blacks were also not considered people. Times change, society grows, and future generations may think us all a bunch of barbarians.

Men like Tiller have saved me from countless child support payments. I salute you Tiller and hope whatever afterworld you drift into you are rewarded greatly.

The shooter is NOT a Murderer. He merely performed a very late-term ABORTION! May his filthy soul rot in Hell! I will send this guy a carton of cigarettes every month for the rest of my life.

Actually, I am rethinking my hatred of abortion. When I read that 13% of America is Black and that 37% of abortions are on black babies, I guess it is doing a job of keeping the niggers in check. Maybe I'll just send him 6.3 packs of cigarettes a month instead . . .

Tiller was serial kiler plain and simple.

What kind of person wants to grow up and kill babies for a living?

Unless you are President Hussein, there is no way you can justify sticking a sharpened tube in a 8 1/2 month old baby's head, sucking it's brains out, and then ripping the little body to peices before flushing the parts down the toilet.

I'm telling you, Tiller is in hell right now getting the same treatment he gave so many innocent children.

Rex come on you have never told a girl to "get the problem fixed"? I think we all have. I remember having sex with a stripper and the rubber broke. She was a real airhead. Do you think I wanted to have anything more to do with her? No! I paid for the procedure and told her to move on.

"Men like Tiller have saved me from countless child support payments. I salute you Tiller and hope whatever afterworld you drift into you are rewarded greatly."

Someone died to save you money? I'll take Jesus over that any day. What a dead life you have.

No Jackass, I learned very young not to a careless dumbass and $2 for a condom was better then the alternative.

Tiller wasn't your 'run of the mill', 6 weeks into the pregnancy abortionist, he specialized in murdering late term babies.

1000's of them

"Undifferentiated means precisely that... cells that have not adopted a specific tissue fate.
"Even once tissues have begun to develop, you can't claim that an embryo or fetus is equivalent to a human being."

So they occasionally grow up as frogs or clams? They are not "undifferentiated." They are human. The "tissue fate" is set from the start. Please show me an example of when these "undifferentiated" cells become other than human and your argument has some relevance.

Guns don't kill people, conservatives with guns kill people.

I'm telling you, Tiller is in hell right now getting the same treatment he gave so many innocent children.

#342 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

...and according to the church, the innocent children and billions of other innocent people are in hell right now also because they were never baptized or accepted Jesus as their personal savior.
Keep your fairy tales to yourself.

The story is told of a Black Slave enjoying life in heaven; when asked, he replied that he had never seen his former White master in all his years in heaven.

The White master would be very cruel to the male slaves, sleep with the female slaves, and on Sundays go to church and sing hymns and give generously to Mission fund.

*****************

During the Second World War the Germans who took part in eliminating the Jews would go to church on Sundays and in the afternoon talk about the barbarism of Americans for fighting with them.

******************************

During the Apartheid era in S. Africa, respectable Whites would go to church and despise Blacks.

******************************
******

Not everyone that calls Jesus Lord will enter heaven ... a disclaimer put out by Jesus Himself (Matthew 7:21-23).

******************************
************

I cannot tell where Tiller is now... but I believe his pastor failed him (2 Timothy 4:3-4) for not preaching Biblical truth to make him repent of his evil practice in aborting late-term babies.

Guns don't kill people, leftists who redefine life do.

Actually, I am rethinking my hatred of abortion. When I read that 13% of America is Black and that 37% of abortions are on black babies, I guess it is doing a job of keeping the niggers in check. Maybe I'll just send him 6.3 packs of cigarettes a month instead . . .

#341 | Posted by Electro412

You won't send him anything because you're full of shit.

Takitez You nor anybody else knows who gets into the afterworld. God or whoever probably thinks xtians are moronic idiots. My God is the almighty dollar.

Hahaha, I love these scumbags that cry for terrorists and late term abortionists.......

Ratty, don't sweat it kid, I am sure you will join Tiller the baby killer someday.

"come on you have never told a girl to "get the problem fixed"? I think we all have. I remember having sex with a stripper and the rubber broke. She was a real airhead. Do you think I wanted to have anything more to do with her? No! I paid for the procedure and told her to move on."

That is the essence of the Roe v. Wade mentality. Guess what, we all have not demanded a woman gets the "problem" fixed. You have an ego most women recognize as predatory.
"She was a real airhead???"
Women at this website, please respond to that. I am tired as you are of reasoning with men.

BTW, I could half a flying f*ck what any church thinks about anything.

Save that line for someone else, sweetheart.

Ratty, don't sweat it kid, I am sure you will join Tiller the baby killer someday.

#353 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Really? What do you think I've done to deserve eternity in a lake of fire?
What fairy tale rule do you think I've broken?

BTW, I could half a flying f*ck what any church thinks about anything.

Save that line for someone else, sweetheart.

#355 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

So, you just made up "Hell" by yourself?

Late Term Abortion The procedures

There are three general procedures of late-term abortions and partial birth abortions. The first and most popular is called D&E (Dilation and evacuation). Once the cervix is dilated, the fetus is removed by inserting forceps into the uterus. The Fetus is then separated into pieces. These "pieces" of your baby will be removed one at a time. Vacuum aspiration is then used to ensure no tissue remains in the uterus.

The second procedure is early induction of labor. This is very painful and intense for the woman and is rarely used as an abortion procedure.

The third procedure is called Intact D&X surgery. This procedure includes a 2-3 day process to gradually dilate the cervix using sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Once this process is finished, the doctor uses forceps and grasps the baby's leg to turn it to breech position. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal, leaving the head inside the canal. An incision is then made at the base of the baby's skull and the brain tissue is removed, causing the skull to collapse. The entire baby is then removed.

Why aren't any of these pieholes shooting doctors at fertility clinics? They dispose of lots of embryos there?
Oh yeah, that would be bad for PR.

Tiller wasn't your 'run of the mill', 6 weeks into the pregnancy abortionist, he specialized in murdering late term babies.

1000's of them.

Only three clinics in the US perform late term abortion. Tiller's was one of them.

Wanna talk numbers? Talk about the number of times Tiller and that clinic have been attacked by right wing lunatics.

FTA: Protesters blockaded Tiller's clinic during Operation Rescue's "Summer of Mercy" protests during the summer of 1991, and Tiller was shot by Rachelle Shannon at his clinic in 1993. Tiller was wounded in both arms, and Shannon remains in prison for the shooting.

The clinic was bombed in June 1986, and was severely vandalized in May. His lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings' downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.

Spud'll admit he has qualms about late term abortions and thinks that past the point of viability (roughly third trimester) that there had better be a damn good medical reason for having the procedure done, like life of the mother. These procedures involve risks that include infertility and sometimes death to the patient herself so they're not anything to be undertaken lightly. Spud agrees with Kansas officials who demand a seond independent medical opinion on the need before granting permission for a late term abortion. Spud thinks that they were right to prosecute for the 19 occasions Tiller failed to do so properly.

That all sed and acknowledged, this murder was an act of terrorism.

Right wing, religious extremism based terrorism.

No better than Al Quaeda.

Think on that, Rex, before cheering on the 51 year old scum who did this. This guy may be the latest religulous reichwing celebtard but that's still not a good enough reason to cheer on a domestic terrorist.

Basically he's like Bill Ayers used to be only this guy actually killed someone.

Be Well.

The third procedure is called Intact D&X surgery. This procedure includes a 2-3 day process to gradually dilate the cervix using sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Once this process is finished, the doctor uses forceps and grasps the baby's leg to turn it to breech position. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal, leaving the head inside the canal. An incision is then made at the base of the baby's skull and the brain tissue is removed, causing the skull to collapse. The entire baby is then removed.

#358 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

...the doctor is then assassinated in front of his family by a fanatic.

RASTACYBORG, At least I got a rise out of you. I believe that abortion is murder, at any time, especially at the time Tiller performed his 'procedures.' And, yes, his murder was truly a murder, but the real cause, the real culprit was a society that not only tolerates, but condones the killing of what is now well over 50 Million babies. The Liberals, under "The One," will keep pushing until The Tiller solution is taken to the streets. There is just so much honest people will take before they rise up and get out the pitch forks. Beware how far you are willing to go to perpetuate your Communist ways.

Where did I cheer the man who killed Tiller the Baby killer?

You really should stop making up lies out of thin air Spud, you seem to make a constant daily habit out of it.

I am shocked to see your sympathies are with a serial killer like Tiller instead of the many 1000's of infants he has euthanized.

Seriously, what a 'surprise'.

I believe that abortion is murder, at any time

#362 | Posted by Electro412

Actually, I am rethinking my hatred of abortion. When I read that 13% of America is Black and that 37% of abortions are on black babies, I guess it is doing a job of keeping the niggers in check. Maybe I'll just send him 6.3 packs of cigarettes a month instead . . .

#341 | Posted by Electro412

Go fuck yourself and then abort the result.

I am shocked to see your sympathies are with a serial killer like Tiller instead of the many 1000's of infants he has euthanized.

Seriously, what a 'surprise'.

#363 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

I guess your surprise must extend to the millions of police officers, district attorneys and judges who also didn't consider Tiller to be a serial killer.

Tiller the Baby killer has been murdering infants for 35 years.

I wonder how many babies he has put to death?

Anyone have the number?

RASTACYBORG, You show such wisdom in your comments. We will see how smart you are when people like you have to meet people like me in the streets. Then you will have eternity to tell Tiller how sorry you are for his pain!

#366 | Posted by Electro412

You don't even know where "the streets" are, you maggot. Your kind ran away to the suburbs long ago (and I don't mean white people, I mean scared little bunnies like you).

Holy SHIT!!!!!

Here is audio of Tiller claiming to have comitted over 60,000 late term abortions.

Sixty fucking thousand murders of infants......

Burn in hell killer, the most prolific serial killer in human history.

www.dr-tiller.com

Sure you do.

Burn in hell killer, the most prolific serial killer in human history.

www.dr-tiller.com

#369 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Where is he going to burn? I thought you didn't give a shit about any church?

We will see how smart you are when people like you have to meet people like me in the streets

If yer seriously gonna go fer the title of DR internut tuff guy yer gonna hafta wrassle Rex cos he's teh current champeen.

Anyone have the number?

Yeah, zero.

Be Well.

By the way, nobody answered my question. Why aren't these pieholes shooting doctors at fertility clinics?

I also have a lake house on an obscure lake in Arkansas. When the Niggers find out they will have to do public service and pay a VAT Tax, it will look like LA around here. That's when we will go to the lake. The Ghetto nigger has been the cause of most of the problems in this nation, when coupled to the Filthy Liberal/Socialist like you!

#374 | Posted by Electro412

Translation: I've been divorced twice and live in my mother's basement at the end of a cul-de-sac.

Rex sounds like someone I would get along with just fine. I am not a tough guy, but I am very capable.

We are already overpopulated. How many more people do we need? This guy was doing his job which happened to be abortions.

electro did this ever get published??

"There are strange things done in the midnight sun
By the men who mole for gold
There are stories there
That will curl your hair
And make your blood run cold
But the strangest sight
In the arctic night
I ever chanced to see
Was that night on the varge of Lake LaBarge
We castrated Sam McGee"

Internet Tough Guy

RASTANNJA, It won second place in the Worgle Fromp poetry contest. That's all I ever intended for it to do. The female Lesbian judge chose a Lesbian who couldn't rhyme moon and June for the winner, but it still paid close to $800 for second place. It was just a fun thing to do with about thirty minutes of my time one day. You can read the first place winner online and make up your own mind.

Internet Tough Guy, Sorry, I wrote the answer to the poem to the wrong one.

Internet Tough Guy, Actually I laughed the entire thirty minutes I was writing it. I still think it's funny . . . go figure.

Sometimes justice is swift and comes with a bullet to the head. Goodbye Tiller the Baby Killer.

#331 | Posted by fwthom at 2009-05-31 10:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Liberals, under "The One," will keep pushing until The Tiller solution is taken to the streets. There is just so much honest people will take before they rise up and get out the pitch forks. Beware how far you are willing to go to perpetuate your Communist ways.

#362 | Posted by Electro412 at 2009-06-01 12:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Bye bye, Tiller the Baby Killer, America's most prolific serial killer.

#276 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-05-31 07:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

BETELG, Just stay close to your mommy and maybe you will be OK.

Electro-
re: The Liberals, under "The One," will keep pushing until The Tiller solution is taken to the streets...

Is that a threat?

BETLEG, No, you idiot, it is not a threat. It is an assessment! You people seem to forget a little thing called consequences. The chickens do have a horrible way of coming home to roost . . . Just keep up the Socialist Bull Shit and you will find out the hard way.

The chickens do have a horrible way of coming home to roost . . . Just keep up the Socialist Bull Shit and you will find out the hard way.

Sounds like a threat, Electro.

Are you talking about domestic terrorism, Electro?

BETELG, Just stay close to your mommy and maybe you will be OK.

#384 | Posted by Electro412

...just hide by your little lake and you'll be OK.

Are you talking about domestic terrorism, Electro? Like Timothy McVeigh?

BETELG, If you could read English you would know I have made no threat. Unfortunately you are a product of a LIBERAL education. I have already stated it is not a threat. Ask yourself who ALWAYS starts the riots in this country. If you can't remember any, I will be happy to inform you.

We will see how smart you are when people like you have to meet people like me in the streets. Then you will have eternity to tell Tiller how sorry you are for his pain!

#366 | Posted by Electro412

BETELG, If you could read English you would know I have made no threat.

#391 | Posted by Electro412

I just looked up "jackass" in the dictionary and there's a picture of you fucking a jackass!!

BETELG, By the by, McVeigh did not get what was coming to him. He only died once, which was not near enough for the hundreds he killed. Tiller suffered a similar end, except he killed many more than McVeigh. Of course, in your Tiny Liberal mind, Tiller had his rights violated. I am not glad he is dead. It would have been better if it happened twenty years ago, but I would not have killed him. I have worked to change the law that allows murder on the most innocent.

Electro-
You mention the "The Tiller solution ... taken to the streets, and "The chickens do have a horrible way of coming home to roost . . . Just keep up the Socialist Bull Shit and you will find out the hard way."

They sound like threats of violence. I remember when we voted in elections to decide. Oh wait...we still do!

Electro-
re: "Of course, in your Tiny Liberal mind, Tiller had his rights violated."

Um, yes. You don't seem to think so, but then you also allude to "the Tiller solution" coming to a theater near me.

It looks like that picture was taken in your mother's basement. Was she at bingo?

I don't suppose I'll have my "rights violated" when you or someone you sympathize with guns me down either, electro.

McVeigh did not get what was coming to him.

I agree. A looong life sentence for that POS would have been true punishment. Death was too good for him.

Tiller suffered a similar end, except he killed many more than McVeigh. Of course, in your Tiny Liberal mind, Tiller had his rights violated.

Sorry, but abortion is the law of the land. Don't like it? Elect some people who will actually change it instead of just promising you for the vote. So, Tiller did NOT "get what was coming to him" unless you believe in vigilant "law".

In that case...Shine up your batman suit and get to work.

Electro-
re: "I am not glad he is dead. It would have been better if it happened twenty years ago..."

So, you're not glad he is dead because he should have been murdered earlier?

BETELG, The atomic bomb proved to be the Japanese solution - but I didn't build or drop the bomb. I just happen to know enough history to see that people will not continue to let our constitution to be disregarded by you Liberals, your judges and president. We are rapidly approaching a time in this nation when people will be hungry. Hungry people do what is necessary to survive. I have made preparations for years to see that my family is safe. That is not a threat, it is doing my job to protect my family. You must be under 35 years old to be as dumb as you appear to be. I an 65 and have lived through the good times, so I know how bad these times are becoming. I also know a little something about human nature. All you seem to be able to do is call names.

We will see how smart you are when people like you have to meet people like me in the streets. Then you will have eternity to tell Tiller how sorry you are for his pain!

#366 | Posted by Electro412 Flag:Internet Macho Man Award

blah blah blah

What does the atomic bomb have to do with this?

Electro-
In what specific way has the President disregarded the Constitution?

We will see how smart you are when people like you have to meet people like me in the streets.

Now that's definitely a threat.

What does the atomic bomb have to do with this?

#403 | Posted by RastaCyborg at 2009-06-01 01:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

As near as I can tell, Electro is glad that Tiller was murdered in the same way he was glad that the A-bombs were dropped, though he wasn't directly responsible for either.

Electro-

re: We will see how smart you are when people like you have to meet people like me in the streets. Then you will have eternity to tell Tiller how sorry you are for his pain!

#366 | Posted by Electro412

Interesting post.

I would never murder anyone, but I will shoot your
Fucking eyes out of you violate my space and threaten me or my family. That's what you people need to learn, but I fear you will only learn the hard way.

#407 | Posted by Electro412

...or if I meet you on "the streets".

What a piehole.

Electro-
In what specific way has the President disregarded the Constitution?

#404 | Posted by BetelG at 2009-06-01 01:58 AM

It is late and I don't have time to go into everything. That would take the rest of the night. Look up his relationship with ACORN for starters. Then you might want to see his birth certificate, I know I would.

Almost every one of his presidential directives has been against the constitution.

Lastly, if you have to ask that question, you are so deeply into the Kool Aid Drinkers that no amount of mere FACT would ever change your mind. We will see what 'We, The People' have to say next election.

As for threats, check out the number one top selling industry in America today, namely gun stores for guns and ammunition. A hell of a lot of people think they may have to defend themselves soon.

#407 | Posted by Electro412

Got a link for that Electro? I didn't think so. Because something tells me that people are still buying more Big Macs or gasoline or useless electronics crap than guns or ammunition. But keep living in your fantasy world because it's so damn entertaining.

Unfortunately you are a product of a LIBERAL education..

We don't refer to the 6th grade as our 'Senior Year' as some ignoramuses in Arkansas do.

RASTA

As Alice Cooper sang, "School's out for summer".

Kids with way too much time on their hands. Some are body snatchers who live in 30 or 40 year old bodies.

Got a link for that Electro? I didn't think so. Because something tells me that people are still buying more Big Macs or gasoline or useless electronics crap than guns or ammunition. But keep living in your fantasy world because it's so damn entertaining.

#411 | Posted by RastaCyborg

Just read the news ever day, oh ignorant one. I didn't say they had the highest dollar volume in sales, but it is now almost impossible to buy ammunition anywhere in this country and guns are, to quote a recent article, "Flying off the shelves."

Unfortunately you are a product of a LIBERAL education..

We don't refer to the 6th grade as our 'Senior Year' as some ignoramuses in Arkansas do.

#412 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Did you mean like former president Clinton?

SUCK WHAT?

This is a perfect example of why liberals are mentally ill.

Anyone with a shred of humanity understands that someone who purposely murders 60,000 babies in the last trimester, is both demented and evil.

Yet, here you are excusing and defending someone who has snuffed out more lives individually, one by one and with his own hands, then anyone else in human history.

If you defend Tiller, you are as evil as he was.

I'm glad he's dead and one thing is for sure, Tiller the Baby killer will never murder another infant by drilling a hole in their head, sucking out their brains, and then ripping them to pieces.

Tiller is a more prolific version of Kevorkian, using theirs 'medical degree's as cover for their desire to kill.

At least Kevorkian waited until they were old, dying, and near death....

Evil Tiller took advantage of confused young women to slaughter the innocent by the 10's of 1000's.

Electro-
re: "It is late and I don't have time to go into everything."

You didn't actually name one specific thing.

As for threats, check out the number one top selling industry in America today, namely gun stores for guns and ammunition.

#407 | Posted by Electro412

I didn't say they had the highest dollar volume in sales,

#414 | Posted by Electro412

Well, what did you mean then?

It's called credibility.

r_zeitgeist GREAT POST! Glad to see someone understands the real meaning of what Tiller the Baby Killer did. There is no Constitutional president for this evil action!

Electro-
re: "Almost every one of his presidential directives has been against the constitution."

Since "almost every one" has been "against the constitution", I'm sure you can name one and tell me why it is "against the constitution".

Allow me...

There is no Constitutional (sic)precedent for this evil action!

#419 | Posted by Electro412

You know, the number one top spreader of bullshit is Electro412.

You see, if I make a moronic statement like that without backing it up then other people pick it up and pass it around like it's the truth, and I guess in this case it might be.

If the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY IS SOLD OUT OF AMMUNITION they must have superior sales. Name me another industry who is out of and way behind on product. ARE YOU REALLY THAT FUCKING STUPID?????

#422 | Posted by Electro412

As Saint Reagan said, "There you go again". Is the entire country sold out of ammunition?

You know, the number one top spreader of bullshit is Electro412.

You see, if I make a moronic statement like that without backing it up then other people pick it up and pass it around like it's the truth, and I guess in this case it might be.

#423 | Posted by RastaCyborg

Go online and try to buy some fucking bullets and then let me know how well you do!

Wow, it just took 10 seconds to find Obama's birth certificate. What a shock. Is Dubya's birth certificate available for perusal?

What's a "sensis"?

Electro-
re: Using Government money to buy private corporations is against the constitution!

How so?

re: Fucking the shareholders out of their money at AIG by chaning the stock is against the Constitution.

How so?

re: Hiring a bunch of NIGGERS in ACORN to conduct a sensis is against the Constitution!

You may have a point there, since originally "NIGGERS" weren't really people until the Constitution was amended.

Ignorance is curable, STUPIDITY IS TERMINAL! I just hope it's one of you sons of bitches who finally presents yourself on my street . . .

Unfortunately you are a product of a LIBERAL education.

Posted by Electro412

and

There is no Constitutional president for this evil action!

Posted by Electro412

Good night to all.

#424 | Posted by Electro412

I hope your AC goes out and you toss and turn in your own sweat all night.

Come to think of it, I've never see GW's birth certificate...

Ignorance is curable, STUPIDITY IS TERMINAL! I just hope it's one of you sons of bitches who finally presents yourself on my street . . .

#431 | Posted by Electro412

...where you'll humbly present us with an olive branch in the hope that we can all live together in peace and understanding.

Good night

...where you'll humbly present us with an olive branch in the hope that we can all live together in peace and understanding.

#436 | Posted by RastaCyborg

:-)

No, it went downhill when the Fucking Liberals decided Niggers could be equal by legislation, or Affirmative Action, or by lowering standards for everything that used to stand for something in this once-great nation. Michelle Obama could play in a remake of Planet of the Apes without makeup! She looks like she would be more comfortable walking on all fours.

#435 | Posted by Electro412

....but, but... Michelle Obama never ran off with a lawnmower? I thought you said that "black people" and "niggers" were different? Was that just more of your horseshit?

Electro

You stand at the entrance to your street and ask if people are Pro-Choice? Watch this until the end. You're the Black Knight, brave soul!

The Black Knight

What's a "sensis"?

Then you might want to see his birth certificate, I know I would.

Let's see yours, asshole.

PS- Your great great great(ect) grandmother fucked a "nigger". Everyone's did, retard.

hey, rex...Isn't it nice when the only support you can get on the DR is from a racist loon?

Did you mean like former president Clinton?

SUCK WHAT?

#415 | Posted by Electro412

People with 'liberal educations' are more likely to get head from women with all their teeth.

People with Liberal educations are more likely to SUCK DICKS!

To call you a moron would do a great disservice to this nations morons.

Most, if not all, of the abortions he performs are on people who would otherwise be breathing today.

#339 | Posted by 1libertarian at 2009-05-31 11:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

PURE SPECULATION!!

The shooter is NOT a Murderer. He merely performed a very late-term ABORTION! May his filthy soul rot in Hell! I will send this guy a carton of cigarettes every month for the rest of my life.

Actually, I am rethinking my hatred of abortion. When I read that 13% of America is Black and that 37% of abortions are on black babies, I guess it is doing a job of keeping the niggers in check. Maybe I'll just send him 6.3 packs of cigarettes a month instead . . .

#341 | Posted by Electro412 at 2009-06-01 12:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

Wow...A real Terrorist sympathizer right here amongst us.

How does it feel to know that you think the same way Al Qaeda does? Face it, you're a domestic terrorism supporter and a traitor to your country!

Unless you are President Hussein, there is no way you can justify sticking a sharpened tube in a 8 1/2 month old baby's head, sucking it's brains out, and then ripping the little body to peices before flushing the parts down the toilet.

I'm telling you, Tiller is in hell right now getting the same treatment he gave so many innocent children.

#342 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-06-01 12:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Wow...I never knew the DR had so many Domestic terrorism Supporters.

Face it, you're simply a traitor to this great nation.

he was a waste of flesh and may he r.i.p. - rot in pieces. goodbye to bad rubbish.

#19 | Posted by nanc

.....another traitorous asshole who thinks Domestic Terrorism is just great, so long as it's what you agree with.

Al Qaeda would be proud!

Is it really possible that anyone thinks late term abortions are done for any other reason than the mother's life is at risk or the child would not be normal within reason if brought to term? Such jingoism from the usual suspects leads me to believe not.

It's ironic that those who call these late term abortions 'murder' fervently condone the murder of the doctor. No doctor would abort a healthy child in the third trimester unless it was absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother or due to other severe complications.

Unbelievable jingoism, rhetoric, and outright support of domestic terrorism. As COMMONSENSE said, "How Al Qaeda" of them (ph).

Being "PRO-LIFE" means you don't support murder of living breathing people, doesn't it?

re: 447

The sun is going to rise on the eastern horizon tomorrow.

"Pure Speculation!"

commonsense

Rastaninja,

No we have NOT all paid for an abortion.

But we ALL probably know a girl whose had an abortion...and regrets it.

And YOU are long gone when she's crying her eyes out (eventually).

Please look up on youtube how partial birth abortion is actually performed.

Or if the abortion you paid for is early on, look into the details of what the "procedure" entails.

Did you know that someone in that abortion clinic had to actually put all the pieces of the fetus back together? Every arm, every leg, every bit of the skull...lest any "remnants of the products of conception" are left, which will likely kill the girl (not as uncommon as you might think).

Someone has to play jigsaw puzzle with your child after they were sucked apart.

You should at least have an accurate accounting of what you've done, paid fo and promoted here.

#295 "Liberal pile of shit"

Please add "SITDOWN" to that list.

I will send this guy a carton of cigarettes every month for the rest of my life.
#341 | Posted by Electro412

What are you trying to do, kill him? Besides, you couldn't absorb the combined purchase price and shipping charges.

There had been some internal dissension within right wing power circles. Would egregiously insulting Sotomayor lose enough female and Hispanic votes to ensure electoral loss for the GOP or was more needed? The hardliners prevailed.

For all of you comparing this assasin to Al Queda/other terrorist groups...

Could you flesh your theory out for us?
Give us the who? What? When? Where? How? Why? of the two.

Al Queda purposely targets innocent civilains.

This guy targeted a "murderer" (obviously up for debate on the definition).

But so many of are making the comparison, SOMEONE should be willing to lay the details and definitons on us!

So it's the morning after some Christian "pro-life" lunatic exercised his sacred Second Amendment rights to blow away a physician dedicated to making women's lives easier.

Should this killer join Paul Hill on death row? A supporter of reproductive rights, I oppose the death penalty and executing even uglies like these "Operation Rescue" nuts. But I'm tested ...

What hurts most is what crawled out of the woodwork in response. The most vile racial hatred, all epithets ever dreamed up for the President Of The United States. Blind, gross enthusiasm for fetuses as people while relegating real people to trash piles. Yes, they have "free speech" rights, but every decent American should vomit. herm

Al Queda purposely targets innocent civilains.

Unless you can point to the convictions this Doctor had against him, then there is no difference. Al Qaeda and this murderer both determined the guilt/expendability of people based on their self-righteous moral code, putting their judgement above law.

It is as valid for this shooter to make that judgement as it is for Al Qaeda.

That the rabid anti-abortionists don't understand how similar they are to their Islamic fundamentalist whack job "jihadists" isn't a surprise. They're employing the same rationalization for that as they do for this doctor's murder. Both are struggling against "moral turpitude." Both have "god" with them. Both are not subservient to man's law, but a higher calling.

Both are a threat to our civility.

. No doctor would abort a healthy child in the third trimester unless it was absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother or due to other severe complications.

I don't know but I thought he had done just that.......and just expanded the definition of "severe complications".

It's ironic that those who call these late term abortions 'murder' fervently condone the murder of the doctor.

Don't paint with such a broadstroke. There are a lot of people who consider late term abortions murder who don't condone this at all.

We don't all need liberal bloggers to point out obvious hypocrisy.

Run the numbers on Tiller the savage Baby killer.

He boasted he had committed at least 60,000 separate acts of killing babies in the third trimester over a 35 year period.

That is 1714.29 late term abortion per year, 1714.29 babies he ripped to pieces each year for 35 years.

Say he worked an average of 240 days per year.

That is 142 late term abortions per month.

7.14 murders per day or about 1 per ever 1.2 hours worked.

John Wayne Gacy killed 33 young boys, Tiller the Baby Killer did that number every 5 days for 35 years.

What a evil and demented demon this fiend was.

For all of you comparing this assasin to Al Queda/other terrorist groups...

What do you call someone who murders to promote a social/political agenda?

This guy targeted a "murderer" (obviously up for debate on the definition).

It is not up to the individual to determine "guilt", but rather the state. So point out just how many "murder" convictions the doctor had against him.

It is not up to the individual to determine "guilt", but rather the state.

Even though late term aborions really creep me out and I am against them, 726 is right. The state decides who is guilty of murder and the punishment, not a lone gunman

No matter which way you slice it or try and spin it.

Tiller took more lives with his bare hands then any other person in human history.

By far.

And he did so by choice.

"Tiller took more lives with his bare hands then any other person in human history."

Superb rhetoric, Rexie, but in MY book he didn't kill anyone. herm

but in MY book he didn't kill anyone. herm

We know. People have a way of justifying things in their mind and rationalizing irrational behavior.

The guy who killed Tiller thinks he did right.

The guy who supported Tiller thinks he did right.

I know, it is crazy.

but in MY book he didn't kill anyone. herm

We know. People have a way of justifying things in their mind and rationalizing irrational behavior.

The guy who killed Tiller thinks he did right.

The guy who supported Tiller thinks he did right.

I know, it is crazy.

Since the star of the Iraq war, Tiller has killed (as averaged by his statement);

10,534 babies.

With his gloved hands.

9/11, the worst terrorist attack in human history, took around 3100 lives, or 5.3% of the 60,000 lives Tiller has taken with his bare hands.

Live by the sword. I wonder what he said to
St. Peter?

I know, it is crazy.

#468 | Posted by eberly at 2009-06-01 10:07 AM

Well that is what happens when you have the political machine enflaming retards on both sides of the issue.

"Lisa I just posted I missed you. No response? As a christian you need to forgive me."

JA:

I forgave you long ago.

But forgiveness and trust are two different things. I remain cautious around some people.

But I do wish you happiness, JA.

Chickenrancher, Tiller the Baby Killer isn't going to be visting with St. Pete.

And with that, I am never going to think about this serial killer again.

GEE, remember when all the righties were self-righteously indignant when Neopolitan warned us about RIGHTWING DOMESTIC TERRORIST ATTACKS?

And here we have a RIGHTWING DOMESTIC TERRORIST ATTACK.

Just hope Obama has the balls to somoli pirate this guy's ass and Israeli bulldoze anyone's house who aids and abets him in any way.

Evanjihadists now sounds less insulting and more prescient, doesn't it?

Evanjihadists now sounds less insulting and more prescient, doesn't it?

whatever, like you needed an incident like this to justify your rants.

"9/11, the worst terrorist attack in human history, took around 3100 lives, or 5.3% of the 60,000 lives Tiller has taken with his bare hands"

Someone please tell me how he has done anything other than to offend some religious people's beliefs. These people, Murphy/Nanc/zeit/chicken...and many others are gleefully posting about his demise. You are talibaptists at the core, don't mind cutting off the head of your enemy, so long as it's serving your beliefs. Regardless if there is/are laws that support what he was doing, the talibaptist's condone and encourage more lawless/murdering, but yet these are the same who are pro-life......what a funny one that is.

One can't be pro-life and capital punishment(eye for an eye).....

LM

And here we have a RIGHTWING DOMESTIC TERRORIST ATTACK

I realize how intensely important it is for a hack turn every situation into a partisian one, but how do you know he was right wing? I've yet to see anything that denoted his position on the political spectrum.

Sooooo, we are the going to water-board these sonsofbitches?

"he MURDERED innocent children"

Sorry...we already have definitions for "murder" and "children", and neither apply here.

#64 | Posted by Danforth

So, then you should agree that since we already have a definition for marraige, between a man and a woman, then arguments for gay marraige do not apply.

IF
One can't be pro-life and capital punishment(eye for an eye).....

LM

THEN
One can't be anti-capital punishment and pro-abortion?

You are completely wrong LM, because these are two totally different issues.

he MURDERED innocent children"

Sorry...we already have definitions for "murder" and "children", and neither apply here.

#64 | Posted by Danforth

Another not totally true statement. One can be tried for double homicide for killing a pregnant women.

Prove it or STFU.

#80 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Okay. He killed late term fetuses. Babies live all the time being born premature at 7 months and he has killed 7 month old fetuses. That is killing a being that was alive.

I am so sick of hearing this so called point about if you're against abortion then you should be against the death penalty or should feel horrible for this doctor. No. I'm no big pro-lifer but I do know that a fetus is completely innocent. Once an adult, or even a kid, you learn right from wrong and are given a choice all the time. A fetus is never given a choice and thus is completely different from a mass killer or rapist or whatever. Therefore, you can be against abortion and still believe in the death penalty. People who think otherwise are ignorant fools.

"Then you should agree that since we already have a definition for marraige, between a man and a woman, then arguments for gay marraige do not apply."

We also have a superseding law (equality for all) from the Constitution.

The doctor may have been a dirt ball, but now he's a martyr. The gunman just did more for the pro-abortion movement than this doctor ever could have.

there's a substantial amount of nervous tissue present by the third trimester.Still... not murder.#328 | Posted by ZombieHunter

It's amazing how naive some people are..

These people, Murphy/Nanc/zeit/chicken...and many others are gleefully posting about his demise. You are talibaptists at the core, don't mind cutting off the head of your enemy, so long as it's serving your beliefs. Regardless if there is/are laws that support what he was doing, the talibaptist's condone and encourage more lawless/murdering, but yet these are the same who are pro-life......what a funny one that is.

One can't be pro-life and capital punishment(eye for an eye).....

LM

#479 | Posted by Liberal_Mongrel

And you sir are an idiot!

We also have a superseding law (equality for all) from the Constitution.

#487 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-06-01 12:34 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: huge deflection

Feel free to point to the superseding law from the Constitution regarding abortion, and I'll agree.

"not totally true statement. One can be tried for double homicide for killing a pregnant women."

But not for killing a child. Remember...we're talking specific words and specific definitions.

The people who murder doctors aren't pro-life.
Those who call themselves pro-life are exactly they proclaim themselves to be, pro-LIFE, as in ALL life.

These religious nutcases who commit these crimes of murder are pro-BIRTH.
Logic dictates, there's BIG difference between the two views.

The suspect in the murder of abortion doctor George Tiller Sunday is Scott P. Roeder, an anti-abortion activist who once went to prison to visit Shelley Shannon, a woman jailed for shooting Tiller in 1993. Roeder also belonged to the Freemen, an anti-government group that claimed immunity from U.S. laws.

Posted by rcade

I realize how intensely important it is for a hack turn every situation into a partisian one, but how do you know he was right wing? I've yet to see anything that denoted his position on the political spectrum.

#480 | Posted by goatman

Right wing terrorist. No doubt about it. Just like his brethren McVeigh, Atta and Bin Laden.

But not for killing a child. Remember...we're talking specific words and specific definitions.

#493 | Posted by Danforth

Unborn 'baby' then.

------

How about the constitution and Posterity?

The constitution speaks directly to Posterity which is future generations to be protected.

Tiller also claims to have performed late term abortions on girls as young as 11 and 14 years old.

They claimed they were raped and he never reported it to authorities.

If it is wrong for priests to disregard the law and molestations--it is wrong here as well.

---

The guy is not allowed to go shoot and kill him though. That is murder and needs to be punished.

"Unborn 'baby' then."

No. No moving the goalposts. The specific word in question was "children". My original contention was Afk2 used it incorrectly, and my belief is we should stick to the accepted definitions if we're going to debate.

"The constitution speaks directly to Posterity which is future generations to be protected."

And no law, civilization, or court has ever given rights to 'posterity'.

"Unborn 'baby' then." No such thing as an unborn "baby," Murph. Asked and anwered. Several times. And what, exactly, does our constitution mandate for "posterity"? herm

Murph also seems more horrified by a late term abortion than by who impregnated the kid or the downright terrifying fact than an 11 or 14-year-old felt compelled to wait until the third trimester. herm

Fine Danforth, Afk2 should have used he murdered innocent humans instead of children since child is a stage of human life as well is fetus, infant, newborn, teenager, adult.

Those who call themselves pro-life are exactly they proclaim themselves to be, pro-LIFE, as in ALL life.

#494 | Posted by Sluggo

Get a grip. Pro-life is the term created to describe people who are against abortion. It does not mean that they are for ALL life as you put it. That is YOUR definition and it is not the correct one. What is it with people trying to assign meaning to a word?

Pro-life is the term created to describe people who are against abortion.

Pro-life is a term bastardized by those who are against abortion to imply those who are in support of choice are somehow anti-life.

What is it with people trying to assign meaning to a word?

#502 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-01 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is called "language". It is how people communicate. The words Pro-life" is a bastardized concept by Forced Birthers. They are not "Pro-Life" as you point out. They are Pro forced birth. The words Pro-Life actually mean---for all life--and that is simply not the case. "Pro-life people simply lie about their cause and their goals. They want control--that's all.

Clinic escorts used to call 'em pro-liars. We'd ask em, those whose vocabularies went beyond grunts, and ALL favored capital punishment. Their concern for "life" surely ends at birth. herm

Don't forget that the pro-choice view IS the pro-life view. We who endorse terminating pregnancies in safe, medically supervised settings care about the life of REAL people, not embryos. herm

So you don't think that there is a person inside the woman. You are one stupid person. What is inside, a FAKE person. It is called stages of development. A fetus is a human as well as is a teenager or an infant or an adult. A human is a human, yes Bob I understand that it is not a citizen, but it is a REAL PERSON. Pro-choice means that they are pro abortion. You are want to stand for.

Pro-choice means that they are pro abortion. You are want to stand for.

Really? I ask because I am pro-choice and I choose to not support abortions. I guess you show your true colors, you are not pro-life, you are anti-choice.

For Herm--

The Constitution says in Article I, "We the people of the United States (that would be you and me), in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our POSTERITY, do ordain and establish the CONSTITUTION, for the USA".

The Constitution holds for the POSTERITY. This means the future generations.

Where is the Due Process for the baby in the womb? If you can be convicted of murder for the mother and the baby in the womb--like Scott Peterson--laws will be passed to protect or convict the killers of the unborn by themselves.

When the Constitution says the word POSTERITY--that takes precedent over the women's right to choose or right of privacy. POSTERITY is the rule of law--not the women's right to choose abortion because she doesn't feel like having the baby, or she's inconvenienced.

POSTERITY--the furthest of all generations.

The left uses the word POSTERITY for environmental issues, protecting the Earth issues, forests, water and air protection issues. But when it come to our own future generations--it's abortion for any reason.

I hope everyone re-reads #506 by "Phinphan" as The Word from One Who Knows The Truth and the rest of you don't. Phinphan insists a fetus IS a person, surely a full-fledged little Republican waiting to emerge, and anyone suggesting otherwise is a "stupid person." Phin cites no source for this, or that "Pro-choice means ... pro abortion," so I presume that either Phin's deity personally told Phin, or Phin made up the whole thing. herm

I also appreciate Murph's lesson on the Constitution. One of the Constitution's great scholars - he taught it at Harvard Law -currently runs things in the White House. Maybe HE can explain exactly how poetic use of "posterity" in that document militates in any way against reproductive rights for women. Just askin'. herm

Murphy is a SHE.

It is lunacy to shoot him. First, it is wrong....period Second....I know this guy thought he was doing right but it won't be very long before someone will gladly take Tiller's place anyway. Third, abortion rights aren't threatened and acts like this certainly won't change that.

I would be willing to bet that a new MD just takes over his clinic and run it.

"I would be willing to bet that a new MD just takes over his clinic and run it."

Eb, I fervently hope so. It may gross some of you out, but it's a vitally needed service. herm

"Maybe HE can explain ..." "Murphy is a SHE."

Indeed. The HE in question referred to President Barack Obama. herm

We who endorse terminating pregnancies in safe, medically supervised settings care about the life of REAL people, not embryos. herm

We understand Herm. You don't equate life with an embryo. Anybody who supports abortion as much as you do couldn't possibly do that. I certainly wouldn't waste time with you on that.

It is just that when you see a sonogram and/or hear your child's heartbeat at 9 weeks then knowing that abortions are taking place at that time then it is quite normal to see an "embryo" as life.

Post 511 appears to be speaking about Murphy. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I still don't see Obama in it.

It is just that when you see a sonogram and/or hear your child's heartbeat at 9 weeks then knowing that abortions are taking place at that time then it is quite normal to see an "embryo" as life.

That is the common dilemma of "putting a face to the name." It is easy to discuss concepts like embryo and fetus and life without emotion, but it is something else to talk about YOUR fetus. The thing is, emotion has no place is law. I have said many times the way to decide this debate is for the cut off to be the youngest a fetus can survive outside the embryo would be the start of life. As science moves that date younger and younger, so does the law alter. No matter what, there will always be a point where an embryo is not yet a living being.

Right wing terrorist. No doubt about it. Just like his brethren McVeigh, Atta and Bin Laden.

How do you know he was right wing? As far as I know the some lefties are anti-abortion and have trigger fingers, too.

If you are assuming that people who murder for a cause are right wing, tell me -- are eco-terrorists right wing, too?

I have said many times the way to decide this debate is for the cut off to be the youngest a fetus can survive outside the embryo would be the start of life.

Unfortunately there would be too much opposition to that.

Even that would be met with resistance from those who would claim that you are still trying to control lives.

One sick bastard kills another sick bastard.

It may gross some of you out....

A lot of things "gross" me out.

This is different.

I also appreciate Murph's lesson on the Constitution. One of the Constitution's great scholars - he taught it at Harvard Law -currently runs things in the White House. Maybe HE can explain exactly how poetic use of "posterity" in that document militates in any way against reproductive rights for women. Just askin'. herm

#511 | Posted by herm

Herm--Obama believes that if the baby survives a botched abortion--you still kill it--throw it away in the trash even if it is breathing.

That's what he thinks about the due process for a a baby. Phuck it--throw the baby out! Obama is not one to talk about the constitution--he has thrown out that document when he entered office.

He is wrong on guns, wrong on BIAP (?), wrong on the economy--you name it.

Obama doesn't comment on things like when does a fetus become an unborn baby.

That is above his pay grade--remember?


This man was apparently a "late term" abortionist. I do have reservations about this procedure, since there's a substantial amount of nervous tissue present by the third trimester.

Still... not murder.

#328 | Posted by ZombieHunter

Actually, unless the mother's health is deemed to be in danger, it is considered murder by law.

The fact that "preemies" turn out to be person should be an indication that a late-term abortion is the killing of a person even by the most rabid pro-abortion definitions.

By your stated logic, if a baby is 3-weeks late and has to be removed by C-section it is NOT a person until it departs the womb?

This is the problem with the pro-abortion crowd - some feel the need to de-humanize a soul in order to justify their position. Some pro-abortionists are every bit as rabid and rigid in their views as some of the pro-life extremists.

PS to Zombie - I took your brief post and ran with it - I don't mean to pigeon-hole your views on this.

Ending legal, safe and clinical abortions, will not stop abortions.

Just like there were plenty of abortions performed before it became legal.

Plenty of women died as a result of back alley coat hanger abortions. Is that what all you "pro lifers" want the US to return to?

"He is wrong on guns, wrong on BIAP (?), wrong on the economy--you name it."

The TRUth (capital TRU) in the Gospel of Murphy. So nice to know we have Murphy to tell us what is right and wrong, that fetuses are people, dammit, and never mind the constitutional scholar, herm

I have said many times the way to decide this debate is for the cut off to be the youngest a fetus can survive outside the embryo would be the start of life. As science moves that date younger and younger, so does the law alter. No matter what, there will always be a point where an embryo is not yet a living being.

#518 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-06-01 02:32 PM

You'll have to deal with the Herms, those who think there's a meaningful difference between a "fetus" 1 second before exiting the birth canal, and a "baby" 1 second after.

LOD,
The "Herms" as you call them will be balanced out by those out there who think life starts teh moment sperm hits the egg.

"And you sir are an idiot!"

Please explain how one can be pro-life and support capital punishment.

Prove your idiot claim, till then, we all see your dunce cap....you flaunt it daily out here.

Flim/Flam, how is capital punishment(death penalty) and pro-life (the right of all life to exist) completely seperate?

One cannot argue that all life is worth existing then say well, they did something so bad that this one is an exception. You are either pro-life and no death penalty or you are pro-abortion and pro-death penalty. The funny thing is, righties like to be pro-life and pro-death. Just like all things in their lives, they want it both ways.

LM

"The "Herms" as you call them will be balanced out by those out there who think life starts teh moment sperm hits the egg."

Yep. I'd be one of them Kan! : )

Thanks, Kan. I started to answer and there you are. The issue is NEVER one second before delivery. The issue for the Vatican and the Operation Rescue types is one second after fertilization. These uglies are just as hysterical about the morning-after pill as they are about that very rare medically necessitated late-term procedure. herm

Karma may be late sometimes, but it always gets there at some point.

Yep. I'd be one of them Kan! : )


There are many and I cannot say they are wrong. I don't agree with them, but I understand the thought process that lead them there. I think they believe "if left alone, this will become a human and therefore should be left alone."

"The funny thing is, righties like to be pro-life and pro-death. Just like all things in their lives, they want it both ways. "

You see no distinction between taking an innocent life and taking one that has had the chance and has chosen a poor path?

It is the same distinction between a military battle and the slaughter of a nursery.

Karma may be late sometimes, but it always gets there at some point.

Heavy.
Got a link?

"Heavy.
Got a link?"

www.youtube.com

"Unborn 'baby' then." No such thing as an unborn "baby," Murph. Asked and anwered. Several times. And what, exactly, does our constitution mandate for "posterity"? herm

#499 | Posted by herm

hermaphroditus...

...there is such a "thing".

Prosecutors charge murderers with two (2) killings when they kill pregnant mothers.

Why is that hermaphroditus?

LOD,
The "Herms" as you call them will be balanced out by those out there who think life starts teh moment sperm hits the egg.

#528 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-06-01 03:46 PM

Good point.

I'm quite content with extremists on both sides canceling each other out. Neither the Herms nor the types who would kill abortion doctors are good for the country.

One of nature's noblemen met his demise. He was doing humanitarian work, helping accelerate the passage of the innocent into Heaven. Now Tiller the Killer has himself been made available for judgment.

By he way, the English Common Law has historically considered "a life in esse."

They are not "Pro-Life" as you point out. They are Pro forced birth. The words Pro-Life actually mean---for all life--and that is simply not the case. "Pro-life people simply lie about their cause and their goals. They want control--that's all.

#504 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

And pro-choicers call themselves that because they think IT sounds good. My point is that the term pro-life does not apply to all of life like some try to make it out. It is a term used to show ones stance against abortion. Forced birth? Give me a fucking break. Even pro-lifers know that abortion will never go away completely. The problem is doctors like this guy who think it's cool to kill a 7 or 8 month old fetus. I guess I can add you to the list of people who think that's a swell thing.

Here's the deal. All you ever hear from pro-choicers is that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. Well, the problem is that they aren't rare at all. I try to stay out of the whole abortion argument, but if I ask myself do I think it is moral to abort a fetus I have to say no. But, I'll never be pregnant either.

There are already to many goddamn people in this world.

Human life is only given value by those who assign it.

Valuing your parents makes sense. Valuing a one celled organism at conception with the same zeal is irrational.

People are animals just like any other, just a bit smarter and immensely more destructive to all other species, so deal with it you pro-life assassination zealots!

One cannot argue that all life is worth existing then say well, they did something so bad that this one is an exception. You are either pro-life and no death penalty or you are pro-abortion and pro-death penalty. The funny thing is, righties like to be pro-life and pro-death. Just like all things in their lives, they want it both ways.

LM

The sad part is that the libs are pro abortion and anti capital punishment. Is that not pro death and pro life according to your logic? Allowing a human to be born (pro life)and putting a person to death because they have murdered other humans (capital punishment) are two totally separate issues. Capital punishment deals with those humans that have shown that they cannot live with other humans and they had their chance and they chose to murder other humans. Capital punishment, IF used properly, and it is not used properly here in the US, is a great solution to the scum of the Earth. Humans inside the woman have not been given that chance.

So, do you see the difference between the two. You probably can't see the difference between a NASCAR race and a high speed pursuit. They are just cars going fast.

And pro-choicers call themselves that because they think IT sounds good.

Not at all. We call ourselves pro-choice because we are for the woman making whatever choice she thinks best and we support her choice and her, no matter what choice she makes. What do you think such a movement that supports choice should be called?

My point is that the term pro-life does not apply to all of life like some try to make it out.

The term pro-life means for all life---that is English---the forced birth crowd can't control the English language. Both terms have been used in the English language for centuries.

It is a term used to show ones stance against abortion.

It is a lie applied to the forced birth stance. Forced birthers are not pro-life, as you have stated. Why are you confused? You simply can't be for killing people and call yourself pro-life and be accurate. Is that too hard for you to understand>

Forced birth? Give me a fucking break. Even pro-lifers know that abortion will never go away completely.

Yes--forced birth. When awoman is forced to give birth against her will, I call it forced birth--what do you forced birthers call it---Disneyland? Justbecause you call it Disneyland doesn't mean it is Disneyland--and just because you call yourself pro-life, doesn't mean you are pro-life.

The problem is doctors like this guy who think it's cool to kill a 7 or 8 month old fetus. I guess I can add you to the list of people who think that's a swell thing.

I can add you to the list of ignoramuses who think late term abortions are performed on perfect fetuses and whore mothers too drunk to get to the clinic any sooner.

A little reality.

Late term abortions are performed on WANTED fetuses---ALWAYS. The womans health was in danger--the fetus was already dead--the fetus was deformed. Late term abortions are never elective. This doctor was saving lives.

#540 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-01 05:04 PM | Reply | Flag

Late term abortions are performed on WANTED fetuses---ALWAYS. The womans health was in danger--the fetus was already dead--the fetus was deformed. Late term abortions are never elective.

I thought these questions have been asked but not answered. Where do you get your answers?

Did you manage to get ahold of Tiller's records?

"Prosecutors charge murderers with two (2) killings when they kill pregnant mothers. Why?"

A technicality in how the law is written, Bendover. A great mistake. A politically ambitious prosecutor (it got her elected D.A.) used that ploy to get a death penalty against Scott Peterson, who most likely did off his wife. A thinking supreme court could throw out the entire conviction for that stupid reason. herm

Where do you get your answers?

#545 | Posted by eberly at 2009-06-01 05:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is the law. Abortions after 24 weeks are not elective or legal in any State.

Late term abortions are indeed performed on WANTED fetuses, always except when the raped pregnant teen-ager is so spooked by the whole business that she's in denial until the seventh month.

Late term abortions, which happen so infrequently that they are statistically meaningless for this discussion, happen when the nursery is already painted pink or blue and the paper butterflies are hung from the ceiling, and some MRI or ultrasound discovers that the fetus' brain is growing outside its head.

It truly makes me want to vomit - I've felt that way since yesterday's assassination - that mankind's most gross examples, folks who probably SHOULD have been aborted, are crawling out of the woodwork now at cheer the cold-blooded murder of a 67-year-old grandfather who spent his life serving women's needs. herm

terminating pregnancies because of his love for life and the human race - HERMENGELE

who spent his life serving women's needs. - HERMENGELE

These comments along with your comparison of abortion to having your tonsils removed, clearly seperates you from the rest of the pro death crowd. I sure would like to know what event in your life caused you to de-value human life to the extent you do. HERM, you are FUBAR. I don't know of an individual I could pity more. The child in Africa sitting in a hole with Sally Struthers standing over him has a better life than you do - at least he did not choose his lot in life.

Late term abortions are performed on WANTED fetuses---ALWAYS. The womans health was in danger--the fetus was already dead--the fetus was deformed. Late term abortions are never elective. This doctor was saving lives.

#544 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Oh, shut the fuck up right now. There isn't a single god damned pro-lifer I've EVER heard in my life say that abortion should be illegal in the use of saving a mothers life or other health reasons. The FACT of the matter is that he performed late term abortions on perfectly healthy mom's. And you know damn good and well that he did. And you try to spin it like I even once mentioned that a dying mother shouldn't get an abortion?

Nice try but that shit doesn't work with me. Like I said, I try to stay out of the issue all together because I'm a guy and not likely to be affected by it. I think that you are a complete tool for trying to make it sound as if there are ANY people alive who think that abortion to save a life is not necessary.

It truly makes me want to vomit - I've felt that way since yesterday's assassination - that mankind's most gross examples, folks who probably SHOULD have been aborted...

It truly makes me want to vomit that you assign yourself the godlike powers that would allow you to decide who should be aborted.

The FACT of the matter is that he performed late term abortions on perfectly healthy mom's.

Link?

And you know damn good and well that he did.

No, I don't, and neither do you. Such an abortion is illegal. It would have taken many other people there to be in collusion with him--many other people willing to go to prison for his actions--many other people willing to risk a woman changing her mind in a week or so after the abortion and putting them all in jail. What I know is you make shit up when it is convenient.

And you try to spin it like I even once mentioned that a dying mother shouldn't get an abortion?

Not at all. It seemed you never even considered that option. It seemed you thought all his abortions were on perfect fetuses and healthy women. You are mistaken. You can not show one illegal abortion performed by this doctor. The rule of law only applies when you like it, it seems.

I hate to be the bearer of facts, but before Roe vs Wade abortions were neither rare nor safe. Women had abortions all over the country performed by wackos, they died from hemorrhaging and infections or were rendered unable to bear children.

Is that what you'd like to see us return to - no matter where you stand on the morals or ethics of abortion?

The problem with the law is that it designates the "health" of the mother as a criteria so the "physical health" is really a subset of authorized procedures that include "prepartum" depression, adjustment disorder, and other minor afflictions that are generally treated with counseling.

When the counseling comes from Planned Parenthood et alia there's little chance that options other than abortion will be equally supported.

El Cid y El Cabron weigh in with their usual nothing. When they lack even a semblance of fact, they call someone a name and feel they've done their duty to the fascist cause. herm

#554 | Posted by OzarkAnnie at 2009-06-01 06:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ozarkannie reveals the brainwashing pattern she grew up with. The fetus has rights in all states after 24 weeks. No woman can abort because of the criteria mentioned by Ozarkannie---that's why she didn't post a link to either a law--a court ruling--or an example.

It truly makes me want to vomit that you assign yourself the godlike powers that would allow you to decide who should be aborted.

#551 | Posted by goatman at 2009-06-01 06:09 PM

It makes me want to vomit when you think that God has anything to do with it. It is a medical procedure to be decided by the doctor and patient within the law of the land.

It is not up to the individual to determine "guilt", but rather the state. So point out just how many "murder" convictions the doctor had against him.

#464 | Posted by 726 at 2009-06-01 09:50 AM | Reply |

Mother scratcher, I KNOW you all aren't really as stoopid as you come off.

You DO KNOW that "the state" has done all kinds of nasty shit in history, right?

Dred Scott mean anything?
The state is your object of unquestioning devotion, apparently.

a 67-year-old grandfather who spent his life serving women's needs. herm

#548 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-01 05:58 PM | Reply |

You ever get that human blood off your hands, herm.

Guaranteed that there are tens of thousands of women that regret meeting Tiller in a medical clinic.

How many regret letting you escort them?

Ever ask any of them?

Burn in hell Dr.

In my youth I killed gutted and butchered a lot of different animals. You get used to it but you never forget it. There has to be something seriously wrong with someone who specializes in this. I will not shed a tear.

not losing any sleep over that pricks death that's for sure! don't really agree with the vigilante stuff.. but fuck that prick either way...

Hell would need to actually exist, chickenshit...


He had been acquitted of 19 misdemeanor charges for not getting a second opinion before performing late term abortions. Tiller was a murderer in my eyes -- 19 times.

#8 | Posted by CalifChris


Sigh. Better get your vision checked. Either that or look up "acquitted" in the dictionary.
Good thing your eyes are irrelevent in the view of this topic.

Guaranteed that there are tens of thousands of women that regret meeting Tiller in a medical clinic.

#559 | Posted by kirk at 2009-06-01 08:19 PM | Reply | Flag

None of them have come forth. Did it hurt pulling that out of your ass or are you used to large objects by now?

Late term abortions are performed on WANTED fetuses. Late term abortions are not elective.

Sigh. Better get your vision checked. Either that or look up "acquitted" in the dictionary.
Good thing your eyes are irrelevent in the view of this topic.

guessing you wish that "late term" meant like 5 or 6 years old then?

i'll see all you left fucks in hell, however I'll be there for a different reason...

Who the hell cares, most people know underneath that Christian terrorist exist and kill everywhere.

One cannot argue that all life is worth existing then say well, they did something so bad that this one is an exception. You are either pro-life and no death penalty or you are pro-abortion and pro-death penalty. The funny thing is, righties like to be pro-life and pro-death. Just like all things in their lives, they want it both ways.

LM

#529 | Posted by Liberal_Mongrel

LM--

I am pro-life and anti death penalty--got it!

(Well except for maybe Ted Bundy--he should have been put to death).

--------

So you must be what --pro death penalty and pro abortion--right?

#488... Tiller a martyr? LOL.... Randall thinks he got Galatians 6:7.

******************************
***********

OJ Simpson was acqitted once, but we still know he was guilty of murder.

******************************
***************

Legal systems and jury opinions should never be equated with biblical morality. Because some so-called Christians may get confused and sin against God by thinking anything that is legal is approved by God.

Example: It is legal for gays to marry in some States. This does not change God's position on marriage.

Abortion may be legal, but it still is an abomination to God.

God's latest only begotten ~ Take it Easy ~ has SPOKEN!

Abortion may be legal, but it still is an abomination to God.

Posted by takitez

Example: It is legal for gays to marry in some States. This does not change God's position on marriage.

Abortion may be legal, but it still is an abomination to God.

Posted by takitez

Actually, God thinks Gay Marriage is a pretty cool idea and luffs gay folks a lot, which is, of course, why he continues to make more and more of them every year.

God also approves of abortion mostly cos He doesn't want to see his Creation become an unsustainable shithole due to overpopulation and all it's attendent pollution.

You, on the other hand, he views as an abomination.

/Look if yer gonna claim to know the mind of a fictional being then Spud can play that same game too.

Be Well.

Look if yer gonna claim to know the mind of a fictional being then Spud can play that same game too.

Be Well.

#572 | Posted by dethspud

Me thinks Spud is a fictional being. I bet you find yourself slipping in and out of that persona in the real world....sad.

Here's a website that describes the persona and practice of Killer Tiller, who it is claimed performs elective late term abortions without regard to the condition or viability of the fetus, its ability to lead a normal life outside the mother's womb if allowed to emerge without being "terminated."

www.dr-tiller.com

What is remarkable concerning many of the posters is that if some sleazeball conducted a con game and mulcted people out of their life savings, but if he were sly enough to avoid prosecution, they would still condemn him as a cheat and a thief. But if a guy can kill fetuses by working the technicalities and avoiding conviction, you defend him.

Of course, a society that tolerates such behavior is describing itself in an unfavorable way. But probably the defenders of Tiller the Killer are oblivious to that.

Let us gather together to commemorate and celebrate the life and works of Tiller the Killer. Begin to enumerate his great accomplishments.

I suppose that choice is sort of intransitive. I wonder what the choice that is available is? Gosh, it's the choice to kill, or to be euphemistic, to "terminate" the fetus, and in Killer Tiller's practice at times the viable normal fetus that would survive if permitted to exit the mother's womb without being "terminated."

Being "pro-choice" involves a great deal of ambiguity. What choice? The choice to rob a bank. The choice to deny people the right to use public transportation because of their race, the choi8ce to beat up your wife. What "choice" are you "pro?" This isn't abot "choice," this is about the being able to choose to kill.

Come on, stop futzing around. Stand foursquare for what you mean instead of using the inappropriate word, "choice." Should a particular choice be a permissible one in society?

Where the hell was Tiller when the poor skank that squeezed out Johnson was looking for an abortion?

for all the Tiller mourners:>)

The Ant and the Contact Lens: a true story
C:/Documents and Settings/HP_Administrator/
Local Settings/Application Data/IM/Runtime/Message/
{72B7D730-E00A-4347-89D5-
41D2F39330F3}/
ForwardATT002111.jpg
Brenda was almost halfway to the top of the tremendous granite cliff. She was standing on a ledge where she was taking a breather during this, her first rock climb. As she rested there, the safety rope snapped against her eye and knocked out her contact lens . 'Great', she thought. 'Here I am on a rock ledge, hundreds of feet from the bottom and hundreds of feet to the top of this cliff, and now my sight is blurry.'
She looked and looked, hoping that somehow it had landed on the ledge. But it just wasn't there.
She felt the panic rising in her, so she began praying. She prayed for calm, and she prayed that she may find her contact lens.
When she got to the top, a friend examined her eye and her clothing for the lens, but it was not to be found . Although she was calm now that she was at the top, she was saddened because she could not clearly see across the range of mountains. She thought of the bible verse 'The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth.'
She thought, 'Lord, You can see all these mountains. You know every stone and leaf, and You know exactly where my contact lens is. Please help me.'
Later, when they had hiked down the trail to the bottom of the cliff they met another party of climbers just starting up the face of the cliff. One of them shouted out, 'Hey, you guys! Anybody lose a contact lens?'
Well, that would be startling enough, but you know why the climber saw it? An ant was moving slowly across a twig on the face of the rock, carrying it!
C:/Documents and Settings/HP_Administrator/
Local Settings/Application Data/IM/Runtime/Message/
{72B7D730-E00A-4347-89D5-
41D2F39330F3}/
ForwardATT002142.jpg
The story doesn't end there. Brenda's father is a cartoonist. When she told him the incredible story of the ant, the prayer, and the contact lens, he drew a cartoon of an ant lugging that contact lens with the caption, 'Lord, I don't know why You want me to carry this thing. I can't eat it, and it's awfully heavy. But if this is what You want me to do, I'll carry it for You.'

Moral? the ant is mighter the pen?

d'b00b is only half right.

Here's the text of the Federal Law of November, 2003.

Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

frwebgate.access.gpo.gov

[[Page 117 STAT. 1202]]

(5) However, substantial evidence presented at the Stenberg trial and overwhelming evidence presented and compiled at extensive congressional hearings, much of which was compiled after the district court hearing in Stenberg, and thus not included in the Stenberg trial record, demonstrates that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses significant health risks to a woman upon whom the procedure is performed and is outside the standard of medical care.


So it's not the mother but the child's - or fetus in PC Speak - viability that's at issue.

This law only prevents PBA if there's some interstate travel or communication associated with the procedure.

I don't know anything about the Doctor's practice, but I do know that Barbara Boxer has introduced a bill that states "the health" of the mother with no reference to to the "physical health" (and I'm not going to search 50 states for all the variations in their statutes). Boxer's bill mandates both funding and an obligation to perform the procedure.

Obama signed on as a co-sponsor of the bill while in the Senate. Wouldn't want that 100% NOW rating to slip away.

Where the hell was Tiller when the poor skank that squeezed out Johnson was looking for an abortion?

That was before Roe v. Wade - abortion would have been illegal. I think the aftereffects of a botched coat hanger abortion can explain a lot of Johnson's comments... nevermind the "why" of his miserable existence.

This Roeder is a political terrorist and a murderer. I hate these assholes because they only give people like buffalo boob and hermerroid more reasons to brand every gun owner in this country a right wing terrorist.

I won't lose any sleep over the death of Killer Tiller. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Tiller had to of known killing babies for a living put a lot of risk on his life. These things do happen.

I remember when my children were in the womb. My wife and I loved listening to their heartbeats and seeing sonograms. I know they were both very much alive as fetuses and all the way to birth.

Any woman who elects to have an abortion should and will be ashamed.

On Bill O'Reilly's show tonight they said Tiller aborted 60,000 LATE term pregnancies.

We have the absolute OTR!(One True Religion).

BANG!
Dead
Infidels all

Chris, read the thread, Tiller boasted he killed 60,000 babies, specializing in late term abortions.

I posted the audio.

I did a complete numerical break down of it this morning.

Don't eat anything before you read it.

What I failed to mention is that Tiller the baby killer made around $800k to $1.2m every year killing babies.

First, I've long been around Planned Parenthood, and can absolutely guarantee that PP NEVER pushes abortion, but outlines ALL options dispassionately and systematically,

Second, tens of thousands who regret meeting Dr. Tiller? This pro-liar makes speaking out of his ass an art form. The fact is that I doubt if a dozen regret this. The good Dr. T. probably saved their lives.

Third, this guy was an usher in a Lutheran Church, for chrissake. I've chatted with Lutheran pastors about what makes them so anti-choice. Dr. T. must have been doing something spiritually right. herm

First, I've long been around Planned Parenthood.

#584 | Posted by herm

Dumpster diving again Herm?

What we obviously need now is a few women to volunteer to die because they couldn't get late term medical abortions. It's really not much to ask, and it might rebut some of that "baby killing" bullshit going around. I seriously suggest that Murphy, Nancy, Lisa and the other anti-women women volunteer. herm

How many in the anti-abortion crowd are secretly applauding this murder in their heart of hearts?

Dumpster diving again Herm?

He was probably looking for his keys about 40 years ago, but had to push aside a bunch of fetuses removed by back-alley abortionists. This back when abortion was "illegal".

Just like pot was illegal... if someone wanted it, they got it.

I know they were both very much alive as fetuses and all the way to birth.

Any woman who elects to have an abortion should and will be ashamed.

#580 | Posted by wurster at 2009-06-01 11:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

And what would you have done if one of your fetuses had died at 8 months? Would you have elected to have an abortion then? Gosh--you must be an evil woman who will spend eternity in hell.

NONE of the abortions carried out by this doctor were elective. This doctor was a great savior to women who were in danger of dying, and needed an abortion to save their lives. Every single one of those abortions represents a woman who lived. 60,000 women are alive because this doctor saved their lives. Not that you care about the living. Fetuses are your love--even dead ones.

Randall Terry of Operation Rescue on the muurder of Doctor Tiller

Terry: The point that must be emphasized over, and over, and over again: pro-life leaders and the pro-life movement are not responsible for George Tiller's death. George Tiller was a mass-murder and, horrifically, he reaped what he sowed.

Q: So who is responsible ... Terry: The man who shot him is responsible ...

Q: "... because that makes it sound like you were saying that he [Tiller] is responsible. Terry: The man who shot him is responsible.

Q: What did you mean by "he reaped what he sowed"?

Terry: He was a mass-murder. He sowed death. And then he reaped death in a horrifying way.

While trying to convince a room full of reporters that the Pro Forced Birth movement played no part in the shaping of the mentality and agenda of the domestic terrorist and religious extremist who murdered Doctor Tiller he STILL hasta come out with essentially saying that the Doctor deserved his death.

* head-desk *

Wotta fucking moron.

Be Well.

On Bill O'Reilly's show tonight

Do you have a credible source?

The state is your object of unquestioning devotion, apparently.

#558 | Posted by kirk at 2009-06-01 08:08 PM

Far from it.

So tell me just how did you "pro forced birth" candidates fullfill their promises to "make life sacred" and do away with legal abortions once you voted for them?

All the while voting to end lives in a myriad of ways around the world.

It appears that the church is your object of unquestioning devotion. Go ask any of the families destroyed by organized religion if they feel the same way.

"baby killing" bullshit - GERM

God your a lost cause. As to the name calling - I call a spade a spade. If you can't look at yourself in the mirror and see death, it's not my fault.

No true pro-lifer wants the executioners murdered. We just want them to stop or go to jail. Like the perp of this crime - who should spend the rest of his life in jail.

One can't be pro-life and capital punishment(eye for an eye).....

LM

#479 | Posted by Liberal_Mongrel

It takes some level of intellectual capacity to understand that a right-minded person can be pro-life and in favor of capital punishment; in fact it is intellectually consistent.

It's not about killing, which simpletons like you always think.

In an abortion a completely innocent person is executed for nothing more than the convenience of the mother.

In capital punishment, a completely guilty person is executed for committing a heinous crime against an innocent.

One is simply killing because you can, the other is a matter of justice.

Who the hell cares, most people know underneath that Christian terrorist exist and kill everywhere.

#568 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-06-01 08:53 PM | Reply |

have a citation for us?
should be easy to provide some clear examples....

So tell me just how did you "pro forced birth" candidates .....

#592 | Posted by 726 at 2009-06-02 07:47 AM | Reply

How many of the women in question were forced to have unprotected sex?

I'm pro-choice: If a woman wants to screw around, that's her choice. But there are consequences for all our actions

My favorite patsy, Billy El Cid, weighs in with "God your a lost cause," and I let readers decipher that. I also figger this thread will go down imminently, so I reserve the right to repost these remarks.

But we must get serious for a moment about this "abortion stops a beating heart" idiocy. An organ pumping blood into the circulatory system spells life for poets, cardiologists and fetal rights folks. But a "heart" in a fetus, three days, three weeks or three months along, is no more life than an undeveloped kidney, liver or spleen.

More important in my eightieth year of life, is that continued cardiac pulsations do not equal "life" when brain functions cease. Take Terry Schiavo, heart kept beating by machinery for a decade after her brain stopped functioning. The right to pull the plug is JUST as important as the right not to be a mother. herm

"If a woman wants to screw around, that's her choice. But there are consequences ..."

Nice to hear the Gospel of Vern again. Yes, there are consequences. For the stupid or unfortunate, one consequence might be a visit to your favorite women's clinic. Let's not make that experience worse by laying a guilt trip on you. herm

More important in my eightieth year of life, is that continued cardiac pulsations do not equal "life" when brain functions cease. Take Terry Schiavo, heart kept beating by machinery for a decade after her brain stopped functioning. The right to pull the plug is JUST as important as the right not to be a mother. herm

#597 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 10:01 AM

Yes, I would also argue also that brain function is what separates a vegetable with a beating a heart, and person who's alive.

From early on in your pregnancy, your baby is more like a newborn than you might think. He sleeps, moves around, listens to sounds and has thoughts and memories. Here's how:

health.discovery.com

LorD, we've discussed this notion that a fetus "thinks," and *I* think debunked it. Google tabula rasa or any reputable authority on the subject, and you'll find the notion of an organism without life experiences, vocabulary or any context of life having "thoughts" is garbage propounded by the likes of Operation Rescue. herm

LorD. you might also look at the inflammatory language in this "Health Discovery" thing. Not just referring to the embryo as "he" but calling it a "baby" is pure Operation Rescue propaganda. herm

NONE of the abortions carried out by this doctor were elective. This doctor was a great savior to women who were in danger of dying, and needed an abortion to save their lives. Every single one of those abortions represents a woman who lived. 60,000 women are alive because this doctor saved their lives. Not that you care about the living. Fetuses are your love--even dead ones.

#589 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-06-02 02:31 AM | Reply

Partial birth abortion is extremely dangerous to the MOTHER. The baby is essentially born, and labor is the most dangerous process of the partial birth abortion>
Your statement of faith, not of fact, lacks any merit.

Unless the space aliens told you...

Are these observations or lamentations for the premature dispatch of one of nature's noblemen?

Some folks may find the unloosening of the ties that constrain our behavior, permitting the assassin to destroy the object of his fury, to be a threat to a society that asks that we all restrain ourselves and use societal consensus as a precondition to any action.

And yet, the courts as in Roe v. Wade, and in overturning some initiatives related to state endorsement of homosexual activity, has established a class of individuals, law school graduates with civil service jobs, who consider themselves endowed with superior wisdom, and who have brazenly denied the often overwhelming voice of the people what they have determined is their wont by arrogating authority to do so, a position which has not been effectively challenged since President Jackson's administration.

It seems to be the "direct action" of the assassin which troubles most of the posters, even those opposed to late-term abortion, which they might view as the equivalent to murder. The actions of the serial killer, terminator of lives of many, Tiller, and interdiction of his merciless enterprise, occur in a twilight zone. The definitions of life as taking a breath of air, obscure the nature of Tiller's depredations.

And then there are those, who unequivocally support "'the right to choose' to kill," a statement rarely totally articulated. It would be defining for supporters of late term abortion of a viable normal fetus terminating its existence, would give clarity to their positions by stopping their reiteration of truncated statements that do not address the issue, which is should their be a right to kill an otherwise viable fetus, which could survive if it were not deliberately destroyed in the process of exiting the womb. "Choice" is not the issue. The issue is whether a particular choice should be permitted. The killer of Tiller made "a choice," but it was "a choice" which most folks would deny him. Should the choice to kill the viable fetus be a choice delegated to an individual? Or as was "the choice" of the killer of Tiller, a choice that should be denied an individual?

Come on now. Don't continue to be devious. Declare your support of killing as a matter of individual choice.

How many of you are lamenting the exit of Tiller the Killer from this vale of tears? Why? It is one thing to condemn a killing, but will there be an encomium now as people celebrate the life and works of Tiller the Baby Killer. Is the world a better or worse place now that his life's work is ended?

As a mother and a woman I feel that he got what he deserved. He was murdering babies so he was murdered. What comes around goes around. Now he can meet his maker and give him an explanation for the things he did.

But we must get serious for a moment about this "abortion stops a beating heart" idiocy. An organ pumping blood into the circulatory system spells life for poets, cardiologists and fetal rights folks. But a "heart" in a fetus, three days, three weeks or three months along, is no more life than an undeveloped kidney, liver or spleen.

#597 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 10:01 AM | Reply

It's disingenious when you talk about fetal development, because you won't even admit that picture taken in utero or post-abortion are really the arms, legs, skulls, butts and whatnot of babies...you say they are photoshopped.

You don't want to know the truth, apparently. I understand. If I'd escorted as many women to their babies deaths and to their own increased levels of infertility, depression, suicide and breast cancer I wouldn't want to look into it either.

But every abortion DOES indeed stop a beating heart. You should look into the nuts and bolts of what happens in surgical abortions. Abortionists actually use the cessation of a heart beat to know that the procedure killed the baby.

I know a couple that aborted 3 of their quintuplets, and gave birth to the other "twins." They watched and listened as the heartbeats went from 5 measurable and detectable heartbeats to 4...to 3...to 2.

I hope you'll see past your past and look at the truth of the situation, herm.

oh, and I agree in PASSIVE euthanasia too. You are correct that a life kept artificially alive by machines need not be kept beating...but it is THAT person's choice.

Have a good one.

A few thoughts about Johnson's polysyllabic rant:

He decries law school graduates who deny "the people's" voice, but people favor lynching blacks, prohibiting interfaith marriages or banning beer on Sunday. It is a DUTY to protect people from the Johnsonian whims of the rabble.

His inflammatory "baby killer" rhetoric has been capably debunked. Dr. Tiller SAVED 60,000 lives.

"How many (lament) the exit of Tiller the Killer"? Me. And statements from groups concerned over women's health. The choice was never Tiller's. It was always that of the women for whom carrying to term would have spelled death. herm

It appears that the church is your object of unquestioning devotion. Go ask any of the families destroyed by organized religion if they feel the same way.

#592 | Posted by 726 at 2009-06-02 07:47 AM | Reply

Jesus and His Bride, the church, are the only ones who've ever given their lives for me.

And look at the scoreboard, 726.

50 million killed through US legal abortion in the past 36 years.
80-100 million killed in the various communist revolutions in the last 100 years.
How many people have been killed by churches/Christians in the last 100 years?

I think an objective look through history will find that civil government has far more innocent blood on its hands than religion and private corporations (and even horrible terrorists organizaitons like the KKK and Al Queda)>
The state may USE religion or corporations towards their own wicked ends, but the civil government is the one doing the killing.

LorD, we've discussed this notion that a fetus "thinks," and *I* think debunked it. Google tabula rasa or any reputable authority on the subject, and you'll find the notion of an organism without life experiences, vocabulary or any context of life having "thoughts" is garbage propounded by the likes of Operation Rescue. herm

#600 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 10:32 AM

Suggesting that a philosophical thesis trumps scientific research didn't debunk anything. Neither did any of the various straw man arguments you put forth.

Johnson = Horace

My research is complete. Johnson is Horace so everyone please call Johnson, Horace from now on.

Horace I supported Tiller and his actions. It saddens me a man that provided a quality service was killed. The killer should rot in prison.

NicoleL what if your child gets gunned down and the shooter says your child got what they deserved? I guess we shall see if you are still laughing. You are a blithering idiot.

Here's some "language" for you Herm.

Main Entry:
embryo
Pronunciation:
ˈem-brē-ˌō
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural embryos
Etymology:
Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo, from Greek embryon, from en- + bryein to swell; akin to Greek bryon catkin
Date:
1548
1 aarchaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching b: an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems ; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception

Main Entry:
fetus
Pronunciation:
ˈfē-təs
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminine
Date:
14th century
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind ; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

Both definitions state developing human. It's heart starts beating sometime around it's 3rd week of conception. Most women don't find out they are pregnant until after the heart starts beating.
A beating heart is a vital function.

Main Entry:
death
Pronunciation:
ˈdeth
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English deeth, from Old English dēath; akin to Old Norse dauthi death, deyja to die — more at die
Date:
before 12th century
1 a: a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life — compare brain death b: an instance of dying

Call it what you will. Abortion is causing death. It's murder.

LorD still ducks any insight by babbling about scientific research "proving" that fetuses think and about "straw men" that I don't fully comprehend. LorDie, I'd like the last word in this dialogue, going on for three days now, but I suspect that all you crazies who still label Dr. Tiller a killer simply won't hear it. La-la-la. herm

And I appreciate your effort, Lisa, but that doesn't make a fetus a person. herm

LorD still ducks any insight by babbling about scientific research "proving" that fetuses think and about "straw men" that I don't fully comprehend.

What I doh't fully comprehend is what magical switch is thrown or mystical property bestowed on a baby/fetus the second it passes through the birth canal or surgical slit in the abdomen that didn't exist seconds before?

And I appreciate your effort, Lisa, but that doesn't make a fetus a person. herm

Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 11:16 AM | Reply

It's all in how one looks at it I guess.

Larry

LorD still ducks any insight by babbling about scientific research "proving" that fetuses think and about "straw men" that I don't fully comprehend. LorDie, I'd like the last word in this dialogue, going on for three days now, but I suspect that all you crazies who still label Dr. Tiller a killer simply won't hear it. La-la-la. herm

#611 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 11:14 AM

Well that explains it. Herm admits to not comprehending his own straw men, so he inadvertently keeps making them. This lack of comprehension fits nicely with his world view that the use of research in a discussion is "babble."

Goatie talks in black and white terms about one second after delivery, but we can ask identical questions about one second after conception. Goatie, I cannot tell you at which point a fetus becomes "human," but I can tell you that when there is a doubt, I will always come down on the side of the one who's already alive. herm

I will always come down on the side of the one who's already alive.

So the mystical property bestowed on a fetus/baby that I inquired about is life.

In the womb = not alive, out of the womb = alive (except in the obvious case of death, of course). The second the fetus thing (I don't dare call it a 'baby' yet) passes through the birth canal it can be considered alive, but not a second before.

I think I have it now, but I can't say I agree.

No, I don't, and neither do you. Such an abortion is illegal. It would have taken many other people there to be in collusion with him--many other people willing to go to prison for his actions--many other people willing to risk a woman changing her mind in a week or so after the abortion and putting them all in jail. What I know is you make shit up when it is convenient.

#552 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Come on, Bob. No, there is no way to prove it or provide a stupid link, but we all know the ease at which the law is skirted on this issue. It states that as long as the mother's health, not life, is in danger she can have the late term abortion. This allows doctors, like this one, to use any number of reasons to go ahead with the abortion. I find it very hard to believe that any doctor would treat 16,000 seperate mothers whoes life was in danger or even had serious health issues due to their pregnancy. You can keep your eyes shut all you want, but I'm not like that. Hell, a normal doctor will take a long time to treat 16,000 people with life threatening illnesses.

Check that. 60,000 not 16,000. Makes my point that much more reasonable and correct.

It has a beating heart, Herm...among other vital functions that constitute a living being.

Lisa, I don't count a beating heart as being alive. However, the presence of brain activity is an indication of life, IMO.

How are all the "Tiller Killers" doing this morning?

I bet you "Tiller Killers" slept well last night.

You are all "Tiller Killers" now, and you always will be.

"Lisa, I don't count a beating heart as being alive."

Have you met someone living without one?? When a heart stops beating, doesn't that constitute death?

Thanks for the conversation.

Have a great day!

"You are all "Tiller Killers" now, and you always will be."

Awww, come on Manypaths. I don't wish physical harm to anyone much less want someone to die.

Ok..now that's really my last post.

Have a great day!

When a heart stops beating, doesn't that constitute death?

Actually, it doesn't, Lisa. The cessation of brain activity legally constitutes death. The heart is often stopped during surgery. Accidents can cause the heart to stop but CPR can restart it. The victim never really died in the meantime

"Actually, it doesn't, Lisa. The cessation of brain activity legally constitutes death"

Really??

My step mother had a brain aneurysm. It was so violent it crushed her brain stem. She had no brain activity yet....even after taking her off of life support systems, she lived another 20 plus hours. She still breathed on her own. It wasn't until her HEART gave out, that she was pronounced dead.

By your defintion, she should have been pronounced dead once they found no brain waves, despite her breathing and beating heart.

Ok...stop it now..lol. I gotta go to lay down!!

Lisa, I don't count a beating heart as being alive. However, the presence of brain activity is an indication of life, IMO.

#621 | Posted by goatman at 2009-06-02 11:41 AM

That's my thought exactly. I know I am alive because I'm aware of my surroundings, my existence; because my brain is functioning. (some my want to argue that last assertion)

Awww, come on Manypaths. I don't wish physical harm to anyone much less want someone to die.

Ok..now that's really my last post.

Have a great day!

#624 | Posted by Lisa

Well I don't kill babies and either do these doctors.

"That's my thought exactly. I know I am alive because I'm aware of my surroundings, my existence; because my brain is functioning. (some my want to argue that last assertion)"

Being brain dead and physical death are two different things.

You are neither, BTW.

Partial birth abortion is extremely dangerous to the MOTHER.

Not nearly as dangerous as he alternative operation, which would have to be used if late term abortions were banned.

The baby is essentially born, and labor is the most dangerous process of the partial birth abortion

You don't know anything at all about late term abortion. First, the fetus is usually dead. Second, you can't be "partially born". Third, all fetuses have rights after 24 weeks. Fourth, the doctor wasn't killing a child--he was saving a womans life. Fifth, all abortions this doctor did were legal. Sixth, a fetus is not a citizen of the United States, or any other country on the planet. No country on the face of the planet has ever considered a fetus to have human being status.

Your statement of faith, not of fact, lacks any merit.

I have stated facts, you have stated fantasy. You imagine this doctor taking healthy women and killing healthy fetuses at 8 and 9 months gestation. You are completely mistaken---your delusions are misleading you.

Unless the space aliens told you...

You mean like the one you worship every Sunday? The dickless Space Alien of the Bible? That alien? No. I don't believe that alien is real---but you do, don't you.

#602 | Posted by kirk at 2009-06-02 10:44 AM | Reply | Flag

Come on, Bob. No, there is no way to prove it or provide a stupid link, but we all know the ease at which the law is skirted on this issue.

The law is not skirted on this issue. The law is very precise, and there are people like you looking over this octors shoulder every day looking for mistakes so they can put him in prison. There is no "pass" on abortion. The law is followed exactly.

It states that as long as the mother's health, not life, is in danger she can have the late term abortion.

It also says fetuses have rights after 24 weeks. The doctors have to take the fetuses rights into account. If the fetus can survive--it must be allowed to survive. That's the law---the law was enforced.

This allows doctors, like this one, to use any number of reasons to go ahead with the abortion.

It does not allow themn to ignore the law giving rights to fetuses after 24 weeks.

I find it very hard to believe that any doctor would treat 16,000 seperate mothers whoes life was in danger or even had serious health issues due to their pregnancy.

It isn't just the mother--usually it is te fetrus--which has already died. Abortions at 8 and 9 months are done on WANTED fetuses.

You can keep your eyes shut all you want, but I'm not like that. Hell, a normal doctor will take a long time to treat 16,000 people with life threatening illnesses.

You can live your life on imagination rather than reality as you seem to be doing, but it doesn't alter the fct that this doctor was legal in every aspect, and he saved thousands of womens lives. You have no proof of anything else, and are simply speaking through hate and ignorance, like a true Christian.

#618 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-02 11:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, Bob. He saved 60,000 lives. How reasonable does that sound? And who the fuck are you calling a Christian? You know absolutely nothing about me. I'm saying that it is highly unlikely that a guy does 60,000 late term abortions and they are all for legitimate reasons, and that makes me a flaming Christian? You are such a tool. And I'm not the one living in la la land. I'm the one who is being logical and reasonable. Stating that someone saved 60,000 lives as an abortion doctor is an example of someone using their imagination.

Now, I thought the jewish/biblical word for "life" equates to "breath", which to me says that a fetus is not a person until it takes it's first breath which inflates the lungs. Then their life begins separate from the mother as up to this time the fetus is a symbiotic organism needing the nourishment of the mother to survive.

Stating that someone saved 60,000 lives as an abortion doctor is an example of someone using their imagination.

#632 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-02 12:48 PM | Reply | Flag

You have no proof of anything else and are speaking through ignorance and hate. You may not be a Christian--I never said you were--I said you were acting like one. This doctor was closely monitored in his every action. This doctor saved thousands upon thousands of womens lives. Facts are, most late term abortions are performed on dead fetuses. Not that facts matter to you. But facts are, you have no proof of anything illegal this doctor ever did.

What I doh't fully comprehend is what magical switch is thrown or mystical property bestowed on a baby/fetus the second it passes through the birth canal or surgical slit in the abdomen that didn't exist seconds before?

#613 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-06-02 11:18 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Amendment XIV

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge
the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any
State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of
law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the
laws.

It's so controversial the GOP has a plank to insert "unborn" right after "born."

We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children

www.gop.com

I also have another question for the religious people here?

What is your take on in-vetro fertilization?

Isn't that against the will of god?

Or is it a miracle of science (man)?

Yav -- my question concerned life, not citizenship. I'm not sure how you took it otherwise. I thought it was quite clear.

Bad he got killed but he was a killer himself.Eye For Eye.This country was going good until Obama and the abortions .Its in the bible.We will all pay as a nation.

and are simply speaking through hate and ignorance, like a true Christian.

Yeah, Bob. That's not calling someone a Christian. I see you take the same approach to everything. Just make it up as you go. And like I said, I don't need proof. All I need is reason and logic to come up with my beliefs about what this doctor did and didn't do. You apparently believe he saved 60,000 lives, and I'm the one who needs proof?

Now, I thought the jewish/biblical word for "life" equates to "breath", which to me says that a fetus is not a person until it takes it's first breath which inflates the lungs. Then their life begins separate from the mother as up to this time the fetus is a symbiotic organism needing the nourishment of the mother to survive.

#624 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-06-02 12:54 PM

Are you suggesting that the jewish/christian bible be used to make policy in government? Sounds like an "evanjihadist."

We will all pay as a nation.
#629 | Posted by JJD1187

Thank you for your wildly overvalued two-cents' worth.

You apparently believe he saved 60,000 lives, and I'm the one who needs proof?

#630 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-02 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag

Yes, you need proof. As stated--the law is specific---this man was scrutinized in his every move--most late term abortions are performed on already dead fetuses.
As to the religion part--if you act like a whacko--you get treated as a whacko. You are the only one making things up. You say he broke the law, with absolutely no proof.

Its in the bible.We will all pay as a nation.

#629 | Posted by JJD1187 at 2009-06-02 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is not in the bible. What is in the bible is the biblical god killing babies by the millions--that's what's in the bible.

Intersting. This is what I hear from reading various threads over the years on this blog.

"Marriage" Language is not fixed. Words are flexible, fluid, malleable. They can mean what we want them to mean and need them to mean. They need to be changed to suit our current moral and social views.

"Baby", "child," "person." Language is fixed. Those terms means specific things, and they can't be changed to fit any particular moral position or social views. We should resist people wishing to arbitrarily change accepted meaning to words.

Cheers

Well, Bob, it may be a matter of perspective.

Paul said that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". One might consider that God, whomever she may be, considers that a baby being with God is not such a terrible thing, speaking comparatively.

Gren,
Those terms may be fluid at times, but the concepts behind them remain consistent. The simple truth is that government does not belong in Marriage in any way, shape or form- either condoning or condemning. Marriage is a religious union between two or more people and each faith can decide for itself how that term is defined. Civil Unions are what government hands out, or legal contracts between people for the purposes of property and prosperity.

Kanrei

Marriage is not a religious union. No religious person is necessary to be present at a marriage for it to be legal. No religious person is necessary for a marriage to end. Religion has nothing---absolutley nothing---to do with whether a marriage is legal or not.

Every church gets the permission marry people from the government. The government makes marriages legal, and the government decides which marriages to recognize. Churches have ZERO to do with whether a marriage is legal or not.

Marriage is a LEGAL CONTRACT not a religious ceremony or religious contract.

Bob,
Just move on...you posted "blah, blah, blah" to me. I don't even read your posts.

Corky

Like Paul speaks for god. The biblical god is for weak people. The bible itself is for weak people too afraid to face life and death for what it is.

kanrei

Just trying to stop the spread of your stupidity and ignorance. It doesn't make any difference if you read them--they aren't really to you anyway--they are for those who might think you make sense. Religion has nothing to do with marriage. Atheists get married all the time--their marriage is just as legal as anyone elses.

#631 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

The point I was making is that the bible uses the word life/breath yet the christian community wants to push back that description to fit their intended political wishes.

So what is it?

Are todays evangelical christians going against the word of god to satisfy their need to control this country through scripture?

Would this not be taking the lords name in vain?

Bob,
Just move on...you posted "blah, blah, blah" to me. I don't even read your posts.

Kanrei,

That is a not a simple truth of the way things are but the way you wish them to be. (Which I happen to agree with.)

The point of my post was a simple observation of how people will argue for the fluidity and flexibility of terms for the sake of one position, but will then turn around and argue the steadfast and inflexible meaning of terms for the sake of another position.

I just thought it was amusing.

Cheers

Ah, if only we could all be wise and strong manly men like BBob, roflmfao!

Perhaps I'll link you a treatise on existential Christianity, or an ancient Hebrew to Greek to Aramaic lexicon, just to give you a headache from looking up all the words you don't understand.

That is a not a simple truth of the way things are but the way you wish them to be.

That is probably very true.

The point of my post was a simple observation of how people will argue for the fluidity and flexibility of terms for the sake of one position, but will then turn around and argue the steadfast and inflexible meaning of terms for the sake of another position.

I am finding that irony in today with the left's sudden love of the office of the President and the right's newfound love of protest and dissent.

So, Bob, in your mind someone who has a hard time beieving in someone else's innocence because of certain variables means that they are a "whacko"? This is how you think, huh? Or, is it more like you got caught in a lie and now you're trying to make it sound like it's not your fault. That I made you think I was a religios "whacko".

Sorry, but I think that you are about the only person here who would say that I have even hinted at being religious in any of my posts on this subject. That's just an assignment that you chose to make yourself based on nothing.

I am finding that irony in today with the left's sudden love of the office of the President and the right's newfound love of protest and dissent.

Yes!

At the risk of sounding like a pedant, it was Montaigne in his essays that pointed out the inconsistency of human action and thought and the hypocritical nature of all human nature.

His essay "On Cannibals" denounced 16th century French society for being far more guilty of crimes and sins than those that were generally attributed to the savages of the new world.

Your point reveals the far deeper truth that even a casual observers of the human condition eventually realizes. We are all a ball of contradictions as we swing from embracing what which we previously disdained and then disdaining from those things that we previously embraced.

Our human ability to rationalize almost any position and belief is quite astounding. What is most interesting is that here on Drudge, as everywhere, most of us BEGIN with what we want to believe and than rationalize backward to justify what we already accept. When we present the argument, however, we rarely present it the other way.

This is the reality of the abortion, marriage, religion, etc. etc. etc. debates--no matter what the side.

Cheers

We are all a ball of contradictions as we swing from embracing what which we previously disdained and then disdaining from those things that we previously embraced.

Parents seem to learn that lesson best of all as they ban the very behavior their parents banned that got them so upset and share the same "silly" worries they made fun of their parents for having. Somehow, I learned it withput kids, but I am a negative person will little faith in humanity, so it was an easy lesson for the pessimist to learn.

Erratum (Now that's being pedantic!)

"When we present the argument, however, we rarely present it the other way"

=

"When we present the argument, however, we usually present it the other way."

or

"When we present the argument, however, we rarely present it that way"

Parents seem to learn that lesson best of all as they ban the very behavior their parents banned that got them so upset and share the same "silly" worries they made fun of their parents for having.

Interesting.

I disagree in part. Growing older and wiser--as hopefully people do when then become parents--is not the same as being inconsistent.

It is not inconsistent to change views as one adopts the ideas and values for another. Parental discretion and experience in exchange for youthful recklessness and impetuousness is an excellent example of that.

It is inconsistent, however, to employ multiple sets of opposing beliefs, values, opinions concurrently. A man tells his child it is wrong to steal and then consistently brings home office supplies from work.

In regard to pessimism versus optimism, I find myself inconsistent in that regard. It depends which way the winds blows. I may be optimistic about the short term but pessimistic about the long or vice versa. I may be optimistic about my individual life, while pessimistic about the state of the country--or vice versa.

Cheers

Growing older and wiser--as hopefully people do when then become parents--is not the same as being inconsistent.

Not as a blanket statement, but, for example, "because I said so" is something every kid hates and swears never do say to their kids, and low and behold, they do every time.

Nice talking with you Grendel

Not as a blanket statement, but, for example, "because I said so" is something every kid hates and swears never do say to their kids, and low and behold, they do every time.

Yes! That is a line I hated as a kid, but makes so much more sense to me as parent.

When I told my young kids that I wouldn't buy them an expensive toy or something, "Because I said so," was the right answer. While it sounds a bit overbearing, a parent realizes that he or she does not owe a six year old a long or even short explanation of the financial situation of the family--certainly not in the toy aisle of WalMart. Nor would a six year old have likely understood it if it was offered. Kids need to learn to trust parents' decisions, have faith that the decisions they are making the right ones for them and the entire family.

(It as no surprise that this is the essential answer that YHWH gives Job in scripture. It is what many faithful believe is God's response to questions of why we suffer. Of course, kids aren't satisfied with their parents' answer, nor are we with God's.)

Always nice talking to you, Kanrei.

Over the past month or so, I have stayed away from the Retort. I just can't get myself motivated to argue the same arguments with the same people. Nothing against them or anyone, but it is often a lot of time that we all invest into spinning our rhetorical wheels in this hamster cage that is this blog.

Round and round we go and where it will stop we all know--right where we got on.

Cheers

#597 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 11:00 AM

A few thoughts about Johnson's polysyllabic rant:

He decries law school graduates who deny "the people's" voice, but people favor lynching blacks, prohibiting interfaith marriages or banning beer on Sunday. It is a DUTY to protect people from the Johnsonian whims of the rabble.


Well herm, it seems that you express disdain for the will of the people in a democracy. The strangers, the men in black robes, came and intruded in communities, and tried to teach us "their ways," But some of us are uncomfortable with a brazen destroyer of human life able to continue killing with impunity. And your attempt to imply there is an analog between protection for Killer Tiller and the other activities you enumerate, does not constitute a justification for actions such as his being protected by courts.
His inflammatory "baby killer" rhetoric has been capably debunked. Dr. Tiller SAVED 60,000 lives.

When and where has "it" been debunked, herm? and he encountered 60,000 women who would have died due to pregnancy except for his intervention.

"How many (lament) the exit of Tiller the Killer"?

Me.

That says quite a bit about you, herm.
And statements from groups concerned over women's health. The choice was never Tiller's. It was always that of the women for whom carrying to term would have spelled death. herm

Are you that gullible, herm. Apparently so.

Spontaneous abortions occur in nature. The frequency of miscarriage without the dead fetus being expelled is rare. And by the way, removing a dead fetus is not an abortion. It's another medical procedure, and will be performed without reservation even at Catholic hospitals. Abortion entails "terminating," extinguishing the life" of a living creature.

Here is some clarification for you, herm. www.enlmedical.com

Excerpt:

If there is fetal death that is not accompanied by uterine expulsion of the dead tissue, it is considered a missed abortion. Signs of pregnancy decrease, the uterus begins shrinking to its original size, and a brownish or reddish vaginal discharge is often experienced. If spontaneous abortion does not occur in a reasonable amount of time (about 4 weeks), a D & C or D & E will have to be performed, or labor induced to remove the dead fetus.

End of excerpt.

D & C Procedure after a Miscarriage : American Pregnancy Association
If the body does not expel all the tissue, the most common procedure performed to stop bleeding and prevent infection is a D&C. ...

This "doctor, Killer Tiller, was not performing D&Cs, dilation and curettage, her. He was performing "abortions." Killer Tiller was destroying life, not extracting dead tissue.

Here is a description of abortion after 12 weeks, herm. Dilation and evacuation being used. The procedcure is described. www.webmd.com

If you liked Killer Tiller, herm, you'd have loved Mengele.

His inflammatory "baby killer" rhetoric has been capably debunked. Dr. Tiller SAVED 60,000 lives.-herm

Sounds like you and Bob are from the same school of thought, herm. I find it astonishing that two people on this board actually believe that this doctor encountered 60,000 situations of life and death and saved the mother every time. 60,000 people, herm and Bob. Don't either of you see the implausibility of this?

For what it is worth, I have found that sometimes those who are the most vocal and adamant about pro-choice, in particular arguing against the personhood of the unborn, are those who have chosen to abort a child or counselled someone to do so.

For this group, to consider the psychological and ethical implications of embracing even the smallest element of the opposing position is an emotional horror they will never allow to be visited upon themselves.

To consider the possible enormity of their actions doesn't even require an argument from a pro-life person. Every sonogram they ever see or every time a pregnant woman comes from the doctor and talks about the "baby" inside her opens the door for a visit by their nagging doubt of their own actions and choices. "What did I really do?" God help the woman who had an abortion and who becomes pregant with a child years later. Every joy of the "child developling within" has an evil twin of guilt evoked from the darker past.

To become a warrior in the pro-choice cause is the only option and to defend to the death every pro-choice position is a solemn vow. The cause thus provides people with the rhetorical shield they will need, not in the battle against pro-lifers for that is really secondary--but against their own demons.

When an abortion is performed, the child dies but once, the parent a thousand times over.

Cheers

to quote Bill Hicks...
people suck...
there's too many of 'em...
they're easier to kill when they're fetuses than when they grow up and become doctors...

Don't either of you see the implausibility of this?

#656 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-02 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag

These operations are not optional--if they are not done, the woman dies. A dead fetrus in the womb will kill a woman if not removed.

Since late term abortions are not elective and require two doctors to confirm the need, to assume that these operations are not life saving is folish.

You seem to think ht anyone who wants an abortion at 8 or 9 months just walks in and gets one. You are mistaken.

Abortions performed at that late date are performed on WANTED fetuses. A lat term abortion is never performed on a healthy fetus unless the mothers life or health is at stake. It is not legal to kill a viable fetus in any State. This doctor killed zero viable fetuses, since his every move was scrutinized by people like you.

You assume that this doctor was not scrutinized by people with your outlook on abortion with every move he made. He was. All his abortion procedures were done according to the law. That means he was saving lives.

Correction: to paraphrase the late, great Bill Hicks

When an abortion is performed, the child dies but once, the parent a thousand times over.

Cheers

#657 | Posted by Grendel at 2009-06-02 04:46 PM | Reply |

First, no child has ever been killed by an abortion. Get an eucation on human developement. Child killing is illegal. What kind of human being are you to sit by and letpeople kill children?

Second--if you have no children, you aren't a parent. See how that works? Tricky, I know, but that's the rules. To be a parent--you gotta have a kid someplace.

Third. VERY few women regret having an abortion. The guilt trip you imagine is just that. Your imagination.

I am confident that the flames of hell are licking Tiller's murderous baby-killing ass right as I type this.

Sorry, but I think that you are about the only person here who would say that I have even hinted at being religious in any of my posts on this subject. That's just an assignment that you chose to make yourself based on nothing.

#647 | Posted by everlong at 2009-06-02 03:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Really---so you don't believe in Jesus? So, you are an atheist? Is that what you are saying? Either you are an atheist, or you're a religious whacko. You can not believe in a living Jesus and the living God of the Bible without being a religious whacko.

I think you are a eligious nutjob, like a religious people. Religiou people aren't living with reality. They have a god that is just as valid as a 6' invisible rabbit, and the people who belive in such a thing are as whacko as you can get. That includes yourself. You don't have the courage or the brains to be an atheist. That leaves one thing--religious whacko. Know thyself.

First, no child has ever been killed by an abortion. Get an eucation on human developement. Child killing is illegal. What kind of human being are you to sit by and letpeople kill children?

Thank you for providing an example of my previous point how some people will argue the inflexible nature of language for one word but then argue about the relative flexibility of a word or language for another argument.

For you a child means one thing and can only mean one thing, and everyone is wrong for thinking it could mean something else because of legal and traditional precedents. It can't be changed or used in a different way.

Can I assume you feel the same way about the word "marriage"?

Cheers

Bob, no "child", but definitely a human has been killed in every abortion. You cannot argue that. So, the doctor kills a human. Let's use Bob's rules on words. You said "To be a parent--you gotta have a kid someplace." Do you stop being a parent when your child becomes an adult? NO, you are a parent during all stages of human development, that would also include while you are caring the human. Ask any mom who is pregnant if they are the parent to the human that they are carrying. You are responsible for the health and safety of the human during the pregnancy and as they grow up into adults. It is a very sad fact that few women have regrets. They should. They (95% at least) made their choice and now they are being selfish and take the human aspect out of it so they won't regret it. But, in the end, all abortion kill a human!!!!

For you a child means one thing and can only mean one thing, and everyone is wrong for thinking it could mean something else because of legal and traditional precedents. It can't be changed or used in a different way.

#664 | Posted by Grendel at 2009-06-02 06:34 PM | Reply |

The word "Child" can be used in many ways---but never to describe a fetus. When you use the word "child", no one visualises a fetus, embryo, or zygote, sperm, or egg. When people are talking about precise concepts, precise words and language are necessary. If using words like "Fetus" negates your point, you have no point. Simple isn't it.

Bob, I didn't realize you think the president is a wacko.

Sounds like you and Bob are from the same school of thought, herm. I find it astonishing that two people on this board actually believe that this doctor encountered 60,000 situations of life and death and saved the mother every time. 60,000 people, herm and Bob. Don't either of you see the implausibility of this?

I see the implausibility of your post, given how many people, especially in KS that have been after him. No conviction. Not a single one. The reasons for 3rd term abortion is specific in KS. It is specific in most states.

Bob,

You are avoiding my point and question. I know what you are arguing, I am pointing out the inconsistency of the method of argument.

Let me repeat,

For you a child means one thing and can only mean one thing, and everyone is wrong for thinking it could mean something else because of legal and traditional precedents. It can't be changed or used in a different way.

Can I assume you feel the same way about the word "marriage"?

Cheers

"... 60,000 situations of life and death and saved the mother every time. ... see the implausibility of this?'

We (I presume we) don't know a REAL woman didn't die in one of those procedures, Ever. I DO presume that all 60,000 were done for medically valid reasons, saving the lives of women, not because giving birth next Friday interfered with the prom. I'd hope that you and your ilk, Ever, see the implausibility in YOUR position, but I've been at this for three days now and weary of the notion that any of you will ever let reality in. herm

Bob, no "child", but definitely a human has been killed in every abortion. You cannot argue that.

You are absolutly mistaken. Sometimes the fetus is lready dead, so your premise is proven mistaken. In addition, no country says a huma des in abortion. No church gives human being status to a fetus. No science says a zygote should have human being status. SO--no human has ever been killed in an abortion that was less than ten years old.

So, the doctor kills a human.

As shown--you are mistke. No human is killed---so says all nations. So says all religions. So says all sciences.

Let's use Bob's rules on words. You said "To be a parent--you gotta have a kid someplace."

Do you stop being a parent when your child becomes an adult? NO, you are a parent during all stages of human development, that would also include while you are caring the human.

UMMMM---the Parent has an offspring someplace. Get it? They have child that has grown up.

Ask any mom who is pregnant if they are the parent to the human that they are carrying.

Even the ones going into the abortion clinic? Maybe you need to know how to use the word ANY in a more realistic fashion. In addition, they aren't Parents--they are mothers and fathers to be---just like their fetuses aren't kids yet. When their fetus becomes a neonate, then they can claim to be parents.

You are responsible for the health and safety of the human during the pregnancy and as they grow up into adults.

Wrong--during the pregnancy, it can be terminated in an abortion, or the child could be put up for adoption, both actions relieve the birth parents of the responsibility you mention. You really need to ask yourself questions about your statements before you write them out. You show very shallow thinking. Never beyond the first layer of thought---the kneejerk layer.

It is a very sad fact that few women have regrets.

What is sad if that you can't seem to mind your own business, and let others live their lives in freedom.

They should. They (95% at least) made their choice and now they are being selfish and take the human aspect out of it so they won't regret it. But, in the end, all abortion kill a human!!!!

As shown and illustrated---your shallow thinking is mistaken.

#665 | Posted by phinphan at 2009-06-02 06:47 PM | Reply | Flag

Let me repeat,

For you a child means one thing and can only mean one thing, and everyone is wrong for thinking it could mean something else because of legal and traditional precedents. It can't be changed or used in a different way.

#669 | Posted by Grendel at 2009-06-02 06:59 PM | Reply | Flag

Let me repeat. Pay attention this time.

The word "Child" can be used in many ways---but never to describe a fetus. When you use the word "child", no one visualises a fetus, embryo, or zygote, sperm, or egg. When people are talking about precise concepts, precise words and language are necessary. If using words like "Fetus" negates your point, you have no point. Simple isn't it.

The word "Child" can be used in many ways---but never to describe a fetus. When you use the word "child", no one visualises a fetus, embryo, or zygote, sperm, or egg. When people are talking about precise concepts, precise words and language are necessary. If using words like "Fetus" negates your point, you have no point. Simple isn't it.

I understand, BB. You are stuck. To say that the word "child" can only mean one thing due to traditional and legal precedents, but that "marriage" can mean what we want it to mean despite traditional and legal precedents reveals an inconsistency in your reasoning.

If I were you, I would avoid the question too.

Cheers

The word "Child" can be used in many ways---but never to describe a fetus. When you use the word "child", no one visualises a fetus, embryo, or zygote, sperm, or egg. When people are talking about precise concepts, precise words and language are necessary. If using words like "Fetus" negates your point, you have no point. Simple isn't it.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-06-02 07:10 PM | Reply

Sorry but I must disagree. Many a pregnant Mother calls Her unborn fetus a Child. She would be correct in that is Her opinion on the subject matter. Sorry this grates You so much Buffalo Bob.

Larry

Sorry but I must disagree. Many a pregnant Mother calls Her unborn fetus a Child. She would be correct in that is Her opinion on the subject matter. Sorry this grates You so much Buffalo Bob.

Larry

Larry,

One of the dirtiest looks I ever got was from a feminist I knew who was a couple of months pregnant.

I walked in on her as she was talking to some other feminists about "the baby."

So, I asked her very seriously, "How is your fetus doing?"

Cheers

Grendy, a barrel of laffs, really showed that feminist, didn't he? Grendy having proved the point of the whole damned anti-choice movement that "aborted" this healer, the rest of us baby-killing radicals might just as well go home. herm

Lame, Grendel. Lame.

Abortions performed at that late date are performed on WANTED fetuses. A lat term abortion is never performed on a healthy fetus unless the mothers life or health is at stake. It is not legal to kill a viable fetus in any State. This doctor killed zero viable fetuses, since his every move was scrutinized by people like you.

#659 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-06-02 06:06 PM

Not saying you're right or wrong but do you have an links to verify this information?

Grendy, a barrel of laffs, really showed that feminist, didn't he? Grendy having proved the point of the whole damned anti-choice movement that "aborted" this healer, the rest of us baby-killing radicals might just as well go home. herm

#676 | Posted by herm at 2009-06-02 07:34 PM | Reply | Flag: Bitter

These are the kinds of posts one resorts to when they have nothing left.

Leave the debating to better, smarter pro-abortion advocates, Herm. I'm afraid you make them look bad when you try your hand at it.

What I doh't fully comprehend is what magical switch is thrown or mystical property bestowed on a baby/fetus the second it passes through the birth canal or surgical slit in the abdomen that didn't exist seconds before?

#604 | Posted by goatman at 2009-06-02 11:18 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

It's first breath.

It's first breath.

So until that first breath, the fetus/baby is simply a clump of cells no more significant than a gall bladder or tumor, as someone here stated?

I just don't get how the difference of a few minutes, a trip throught the birth canal, and a breath turns an insignificant clump of cells equal to a tumor into a human being.

i didn't state that. i don't know, it's above my pay grade. but you do need to breath to live.

I DO presume that all 60,000 were done for medically valid reasons, saving the lives of women, not because giving birth next Friday interfered with the prom.

I have seen no proof to suggest that neither all nor some nor many etc...

What you really mean is that you HOPE that all 60K were done for medically valid reasons as do I.

But I don't really know.

That is reality Herm.

I just don't get how the difference of a few minutes, a trip throught the birth canal, and a breath turns an insignificant clump of cells equal to a tumor into a human being.

The law is going to draw a line somewhere but if you have gone through pregnancy and experienced childbirth(man or woman) then you know that life (real life) occurs much before birth.

Not making a partisian argument nor am I judging (with regard to this )but just speaking from my heart.

At least. Truth from Eberly. He doesn't know! But he (?) is willing to ASSUME ... herm

You know I don't see how anyone could gloat or say abortion is some great idea. While personally I am totally against it but I feel I lack the right to dictate what another person does with their bodies. What bugs Me about some of the pro abortion(Not to be confused with the Pro choice folks) is the unyielding praise they give to abortions and the abortions that they took part in. To me that just cheapens the value of life tremendiously. Sad state of affairs if You ask Me.

Larry

Not saying you're right or wrong but do you have an links to verify this information?

#678 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2009-06-02 08:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is the law. This man's every move was watched by people who were against abortion. If they could have found him doing something illegal, he would have been prosecuted vigorously. Therefore, it only stands to reason that EVERY abortion he did was on a dead fetus, or to save the life of a mother, and that none were done on healthy women with healthy fetuses, since such an operation would be very much against the law.

...VERY few women regret having an abortion. The guilt trip you imagine is just that. Your imagination.

#661 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob


Link?

I understand, BB. You are stuck. To say that the word "child" can only mean one thing due to traditional and legal precedents,

You are the only one saying "Child" can mean only one thing. I have said three times that "Child" can mean many things--but nve a fetus.

but that "marriage" can mean what we want it to mean despite traditional and legal precedents reveals an inconsistency in your reasoning.

My reasoning is very consistent. Marriage is a legal contract between two people. Marriage between one man and one woman has only been "traditional" since about the 8th century among Christians, and in may parts of the world it is one of many options.

If I were you, I would avoid the question too.

I never avoid anything--you have no questions or thoughts that challenge any concept I might have. Your logic is too weak.

Cheers

Toodles

#673 | Posted by Grendel at 2009-06-02 07:14 PM | Reply | Flag

Link?

#688 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-06-02 11:03 PM | Reply | Flag

No link needed. Millions of women have had abortions. If there was a mass outpouring of regret and rushing to psychologists offices, the world would have known of it long ago. They know no baby was killed. They know no infant was killed. They know what every government on the planet knows--a fetus is not a human being. They now what every religion knows--a fetus is not a human being. They know what every science knows--a fetus s not a human being. No government--no religion--no science gives human being status to a fetus. None--zero--nada. That's why it is known that regrets among women who have had abortion is very low---they know what every one else knows--a fetus is not a human being---not a citizen---not a church member---not a human being.

None--zero--nada. That's why it is known that regrets among women who have had abortion is very low---they know what every one else knows--a fetus is not a human being---not a citizen---not a church member---not a human being.

#690 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Boob it's obvious I firmly believe that you are a loon but when I saw your earlier post and Chris' response I came to warn you but I'm afraid I'm too late you're on your own moron.

Gimmeacrotch

Run along mush mind--you haven't made a point since OJ was a football star.

You are the only one saying "Child" can mean only one thing. I have said three times that "Child" can mean many things--but nve a fetus.

Yes, exactly, because you believe the term "child" in inflexible and the meaning is fixed. No one should apply it to the unborn.

But you do not believe the term, "marriage" is equally fixed despite the fact that in western culture, both legally and traditionally, is has never meant the union between a man and a woman. You are willing, I believe, to change the meaning of that word or term to suit your current beliefs.

Your reasoning and method of argumentation is inconsistent. When the meaning of words as fixed terms supports your views you will resort to that argument. When you don't want the meaning to be fixed, you call for rejection of their fixed meaning"marriage" should not only refer to different sex unions despite the fact that this has been the legal and social custom of the past two thousand years and then some.

I can state this obvious critique of your argument a thousand times, but that, of course, does not mean you will take ownership of it. I know your MO well enough to not expect that.

Your acceptance of it matters not to me.

Cheers and good night all.

Grendel

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself---you never seem to understand a word I have written.You keep repeating the same nonsense. Is it a brain disorder? Kindly fuck off, no matter what it is as you will be ignored in the future. You are non existent to me. Just like Goatman and kanrei.

Toodles.

You are non existent to me. Just like Goatman and kanrei.

#694 | Posted by Buffoon_Boob

You do realize that by saying that you've made Grendel, Goatman and kanrei the three most envied and respected posters on the Drudge Retort?


You do realize that by saying that you've made Grendel, Goatman and kanrei the three most envied and respected posters on the Drudge Retort?

One becomes non existent to bOoB when he gets tired of having facts that he can no longer deny shoved down his throat. It looks like mooman is about t become non-existent, too.

I became non-existent (again, he did it to me once before) when I kept posting the google link to the thousands of times gun owners used guns to their advantage making his "guns are no good for defense" mantra null and void.

I guess he thinks if he makes you non existent, the facts you present go away. LOL Who knows what goes on in that head of his?

LOL Gimme, that made me giggle.

Goatman? Did you see my response to your brain wave post?

Goatman? Did you see my response to your brain wave post?

No. I'll go find it. But it'll have to wait until after breakfast and my pre-tour meetng. I'm running late this AM. I'll get back with you.

Fair enough!

Enjoy your breakfast.

Gimmeacrotch

Make it 4--I'm feeling generous.

Gimmeacrotch

Make it 4--I'm feeling generous.

#700 | Posted by Buffoon_Boob

Wow I wasn't expecting this and I didn't have any prepared remarks.

My muthah thanks you, my fathuh thanks you, my bruthahs and sistahs thank you but most importantly I thank you for this immense mark of respect that you have so suddenly but unselfishly bestowed upon me. Today I feel like the luckiest man in the netherworlds of the internet (echoes)

This moment shall forever be etched in my mind as the pinnacle of my association with the Drudge Retort...oh my Gawd I'm at a lost for words and all choked up (sniff) I'm sorry everybody this just overwhelms me tremendously.

Remember everybody you too can be a thorn in Buffoon_Boob's side if you really want it bad enough. Take care and Gawd bless you all (bows).

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