Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Saturday, May 30, 2009

The average family with health insurance in 2008 paid a "hidden health tax" of $1,017 to cover the health-care costs of the uninsured, according to a report released Thursday by advocacy group Families USA.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

Zap

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

That is one months family premiums.

this is screwed on so many levels...

This might equate to approximately 8 to 10% of the total premiums paid.

I would have personally thought this figure to be much higher.

Another way of putting it would be that I am happy to pay the $1,017 to cover this "over billing" on my services so that providers can absorb the uninsured.

Seriously. I really think this is cheap.

IMO

I don't understand why the government (or someone) can't fund clinics adjacent to emergency rooms to provide basic health services. I guess insurance company profits are more important.

I don't understand why the government (or someone) can't fund clinics adjacent to emergency rooms to provide basic health services. I guess insurance company profits are more important.

#4 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2009-05-29 11:30 AM | Reply

Let-U-Spray --

This has been tried many times and never works. People who have no intention of paying the bill walk past the free clinic and into the ER. To them, their upset tummy or sore foot are emergencies.

Once they step into the ER, the hospital is obliged by law to give them full treatment.

Your comment about insurance company profits is simply bizzare, and has nothing to do with this topic. Just another random synaptic flare: Oooo, Oooo health care and poor people! Time to say something about evil insurance companies.

And Obama's solution is . . . to have the government pay for it, and our taxes will go up by that much.

Sounds great! Gobama!

Another way of putting it would be that I am happy to pay the $1,017 to cover this "over billing" on my services so that providers can absorb the uninsured.

Seriously. I really think this is cheap.

IMO

#3 | Posted by eberly at 2009-05-29 10:11 AM | Reply

You'd pay a lot more in taxes under ObamaCare, and the quality of care and access would decrease.

For either political reasons or simple ignorance many people equate lack of coverage with lack of care.

But nobody goes without care if they seek it; most doctors give away at least 20% of their practice to 'self-pay' patients.

And most of the uninsured are only that way for a short time. US Census says the long-term uninsured are less than 3% of the population. The rest have access to insurance but don't get it, or they are between jobs.

You'd pay a lot more in taxes under ObamaCare, and the quality of care and access would decrease.

#7 | Posted by vernon

Can you give me an example to back up this statement?

Or better yet,

Can you compare/contrast Universal Care to HMO care?

#4 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2009-05-29 11:30 AM | Reply |

Spot on.

And most of the uninsured are only that way for a short time. US Census says the long-term uninsured are less than 3% of the population. The rest have access to insurance but don't get it, or they are between jobs.

#7 | Posted by vernon at 2009-05-29 11:50 AM | Reply

That is 9,000,000 people.

Can you give me an example to back up this statement?



You know, I see this talking point (paid for by BigHealth Inc. no doubt) bandied about a lot, but never anything to back up said claim.

You know, I see this talking point (paid for by BigHealth Inc. no doubt) bandied about a lot, but never anything to back up said claim.

#11 | Posted by 726


Well, you are welcome to call Obama and ask him how much cheaper his plan would be.

I don't know if a plan created by Obama would be more or less but I am guessing that you think it would be less.

Why? What link can you provide to substantiate that?

Can you compare/contrast Universal Care to HMO care?

#8 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-05-29 12:16 PM | Reply

There are a million comparisons at your fingertips. I could Google one, and you would quickly find a different one with an opposing outcome.

You probably also think that doctors are rich. Would you be surprised to know that a primary care doc, working 60 hours a week, makes about $30 an hour? That's with 11 years' vacation.

The difference is that you are approaching this from a political stance, hoping to score a gotcha. I'm looking at it from the facts.

"Would you be surprised to know that a primary care doc, working 60 hours a week, makes about $30 an hour? That's with 11 years' vacation."

Warning: Vernon has broken out his calculator again.

I wanna git me some of that edjavacation.

That is 9,000,000 people.

#10 | Posted by 726 at 2009-05-29 02:37 PM | Reply

Yes, it is.

Are we supposed to completely fuck it up for the other 291 million Americans with ObamaCare?

Perhaps a real solution would address the narrow problem of those 9 million.

Politicians like Hillary and Obama never want to say that. They want bold, sweeping programs that control the lives of everyone.

If they actually cared about the chronically uninsured they would have done something by now; a program for 9 million would be easy. But then health care would be 'fixed' and they would lose a favorite Democrat wedge issue.

That is 9,000,000 people.

yeah, but 291,000,000 are covered.

big numbers for effect....

:-(

That is 9,000,000 people that I am paying an extra $1,017 a year to provide services for.

right?

"yeah, but 291,000,000 are covered."

Um...no....

"That is 9,000,000 people that I am paying an extra $1,017 a year to provide services for."

Which comes out to about $31 annually per citizen. Fair enough.

#13 | Posted by vernon

Vern I am an insurance agent and I can tell you that there will be no difference in the medical care and management of Universal Health Care and Private HMO Care.

I also see what doctors get paid and it is a lot more than you are willing to admit.

I am not looking at this from a political point as you suggest, I see this as an economic issue that has greatly contributed to the market crash we are currently enduring. You must remember the number one cause of bankruptcies are due to medical costs whether you have insurance or not...

Which comes out to about $31 annually per citizen

I'm not following.....do the math for me....I'm dumb.

Vern I am an insurance agent and I can tell you that there will be no difference in the medical care and management of Universal Health Care and Private HMO Care.


how would you know? you sell insurance (I hope you are referring to health insurance and I also hope you represent major carriers) for private insurance carriers.

what is your expertise in "universal health care"?

Danforth,

nevermind. I get it.

It IS cheap.

Sold!!!!!

"I'm not following.....do the math for me..."

9 million uninsured, (X) $1,017/year, (/) 300,000,000 Americans.

= $31/person

Vern I am an insurance agent and I can tell you that there will be no difference in the medical care and management of Universal Health Care and Private HMO Care.


#21 | Posted by Prolix247

WoW! You wouldn't happen to have the Lotto numbers for North Carolina, would you?

does your math include the indigent, illegal, unemployed and those who are already suckling at the government teat, danforth?

the last numbers i heard on those without medical coverage was 47 million.

#23 | Posted by eberly

Yes I sell health insurance with every major company allowed in California, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, Health Net, Pacificare, United Healthcare, Aetna, Cal Choice, and Medicare.

I also attend avery stratagy meeting offered by the Private Insurance Industry regarding Universal Care and how to defeat it and what it will mean to the industry if passed. So I am as up to date as any professional should be as it will affect my business.

I still agree with Universal Healthcare based on pure economics.


WoW! You wouldn't happen to have the Lotto numbers for North Carolina, would you?

#26 | Posted by STIRSUMUP


Here they are

9 million uninsured, (X) $1,017/year, (/) 300,000,000 Americans.


= $31/person

Posted by Danforth


So we are subsidizing health care to medical providers to provide services to the uninsured and it costs $31/person per year.

It says my family is paying $1,017.

that would be more. We are a family of 5.....more like $203/person for us.

In any case, my original point was that I pay way less than I thought.

I also attend avery stratagy meeting offered by the Private Insurance Industry regarding Universal Care and how to defeat it and what it will mean to the industry if passed. So I am as up to date as any professional should be as it will affect my business.


You were referring to HMOs specifically.

Do you feel the same way with regard to traditional plans as well?

-I still agree with Universal Healthcare based on pure economics.

#28 | Posted by Prolix247


Deserving of a Moment of Clarity Award.... and to someone who knows what they are talking about.

Deserving of a Moment of Clarity Award.... and to someone who knows what they are talking about.

Shut up you hack.

If he said the opposite you wouldn't have done anything except attack it.

You just want to believe it.

Yes I sell health insurance with every major company allowed in California, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, Health Net, Pacificare, United Healthcare, Aetna, Cal Choice, and Medicare.


I also attend avery stratagy meeting offered by the Private Insurance Industry regarding Universal Care and how to defeat it and what it will mean to the industry if passed. So I am as up to date as any professional should be as it will affect my business.


I still agree with Universal Healthcare based on pure economics.



#28 | Posted by Prolix247

I'm calling Bs on you selling insurance. I know how they get paid. If it's based on pure economics your out of business. Very noble of you to do this for the good of the country.

-Shut up you hack.


Must be the Terrible Twos.

I wanna git me some of that edjavacation.

#15 | Posted by mOntecOre

'Edjavacation' is Romanian for 'goat cock'.

Must be the Terrible Twos.


#35 | Posted by Corky

you know it's true you hack. If an "industry expert" posted something you disagree with you would cry like a pussy and attack them.

#31 | Posted by eberly

Here is the main difference between HMOs and PPO plans.

HMOs pay your primary care physician a capitation payment every month whether you use care or not. It is up to you Primary Care physician to manage your care each year within those capitation payments.

That is why you have a "Gatekeeper" for your medical groups in the form of a primary care physician.

With PPO Plans you can go to your own doctor of choice (a misnomer) but it WILL cost you more through your deductible. Just two years ago private insurance companies were offering PPO Plans with reasonable deductibles but now most affordable plans have a minimum of a $1,000 deductible. What the insurance industry does not tell you is they have done studies that determined that on average people will spend about $1,200 per year in actual medical care.

See the hook? You pay your premium, plus your deductible and except for major illnesses the private carriers pay little to nothing. Nifty isn't it.

Both types of plans will need prior authorization for most non-emergency medical procedures which can be denied by an underwriter.

But to answer your question directly regarding PPO Plans Eberly it is a matter of costs and what the individual can afford. If you can afford the premium, deductible, and max out of pocket and like the so-called "freedom of choice" (which is incorrect as you have to see a network doctor to truly enjoy the benefits of any plan) then a PPO plan will be competitive.

Personally I see PPO plans becoming degraded to the point that will only cover major illnesses or injuries as I have seen deductibles as high as $10,000.

The new catch phrase insurance companies are attempting to sell is "don't think of it as insurance for unforeseen medical expenses, think of it as medical expense financing."

Chew on that a minute

#34 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

I get paid by a monthly commision an everything I sell for as long as the policy stays in force.

What is your point?

It's going to be fun to see how Obama pulls this off when he's going broke fast. Soviet Union style health care maybe.

'Edjavacation' is Romanian for 'goat cock'.

#36 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-29 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag: Fag

Chew on that a minute

#38 | Posted by Prolix247

I apologize. I should have qualified my question better. I have been in the group health business for 10 years. I understand the difference between HMOs and PPOs.

A $1,000 deductible is not high at all.

What the insurance industry does not tell you is they have done studies that determined that on average people will spend about $1,200 per year in actual medical care.

Are you sure you want to say that? That doesn't really sound very bad does it?

Let's make sure we are framing this much worse. LOL

In any case, what makes you think a universal health care plan is better?

#41 | Posted by mOntecOre at 2009-05-29 04:04 PM| Reply | Flag:dream come true

"It says my family is paying $1,017. "

My bad. I incorrectly assumed that was the cost of insuring each uninsured. Apologies.

That aside, I agree...$20/month isn't impossible.

What is your point?

#39 | Posted by Prolix247

What do you think my point is? If we get universal Health Care YOU are one of the Cost savings Obama is talking about. You think there still going to pay people like you? Dumb ASS! You are Private Sector. Unless you plan on going to work for them your Screwed. And you don't even know it.........

#42 | Posted by eberly

It is not a matter of framing anything it is a fact. Insurance companies are not in the business of issuing checks they are now hedge funds who only want to accept fees.

I do groups also and $1,000 may not be much to you but on average I know my clients flinch at that number because it is hard for all thier employees to handle.

You should know that Universal Care will follow an HMO model as Nixon first proposed before Kiaser talked him out of it.

It will be a matter of choice and opinion from there. I see nothing wrong with HMOs while some employers will refuse to offer them as they believe they are gaining something from a PPO. Some clients of mine love the Kaiser model and would never leave it.

What frustrates me is people who say it won't work or it will be too expensive when that is what we are dealing with now...

#45 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

There will still need to be agents as there will still be private insurance. It will be a matter of choice. Not everyone will want to join Universal Healthcare.

What frustrates me is people who say it won't work or it will be too expensive when that is what we are dealing with now...


Posted by Prolix247


Well, the thread is about my "insured" family paying approx $1,017 a year in additiona premiums to cover the uninsured.

And I think that is cheap..........very cheap.

I don't think it is expensive right now. If that number is right then I think it is foolish to replace it with another system. I also think it is foolish to think that any other system would be cheaper unless you had real data to back that up.

#43 - I'm flattered. I don't know if anyone has ever called me that before. (You're still a fag, though.)

"I also think it is foolish to think that any other system would be cheaper unless you had real data to back that up."

Will France, Canada, or Britain do?

I do groups also and $1,000 may not be much to you but on average I know my clients flinch at that number because it is hard for all thier employees to handle.

In California?

Will France, Canada, or Britain do?

#50 | Posted by Danforth


I agree those are reasons to look at it.

#49 | Posted by mOntecOre at 2009-05-29 04:41 PM | Reply | Flag: ready to climax with visions of little fat men running through head

#48 | Posted by eberly

So you do not believe that preventative care will bring down the cost of insurance for all?

I have a question?

What costs more; a well care check-up that determines you have early stage diabetes that can be managed by diet or a trip to the ER when you go into hypoglycemic shock because you never discovered you had diabetes?

"I do groups also and $1,000 may not be much to you but on average I know my clients flinch at that number because it is hard for all thier employees to handle."

Although the point is, you're already paying that. And when you add that to the fact the uninsured often opt for more expensive care (ERs, waiting until the problem mushrooms), the potential for savings is huge. And coupled with the empirical data proving prevention is MUCH cheaper than cure, every day we wait is a day we waste.

#51 | Posted by eberly

Yes,

Havn't you heard the economy is tanking and the cost of living is high out here.

So you do not believe that preventative care will bring down the cost of insurance for all?

No, I think the most important thing we can do is improve the access to preventative care.

Any reform we attempt has to start with that otherwise it is a waste of time.

What costs more; a well care check-up that determines you have early stage diabetes that can be managed by diet or a trip to the ER when you go into hypoglycemic shock because you never discovered you had diabetes?

MOntecore can help. I thought he was using a term of endearment when he was telling me I was sweet whenever he came up for air. Ended up he actually was describing the taste and ended up I was indeed diabetic.

#47 | Posted by Prolix247

So...You have No competition right now. WOW.

I own a small corp and about once or twice a month I have one of the local insurance companies calling me. About twice a month I get an ad for a national company.

Tell me if your industry looses about say 75% of your health insurance customers. Will the compition for the remaining customers increase?

You will be competing for customers with all your current competition (and they'll be hungry) plus you'll be in competition with the US Government. The government doesn't like competition.

#57 | Posted by eberly

That is the purpose of Universal Healthcare.

To allow those currently not covered (considered uninsurable or cannot afford healthcare) to get access to preventative care that will move to managed care if an illness manifests itself.

Universal Healthcare in and of itself is not reform, it as an option to private for profit insurance that will cover any and all people who wish to enroll.

Universal Healthcare in and of itself is not reform, it as an option to private for profit insurance that will cover any and all people who wish to enroll.


"any and all"? Yikes!!!

I'm not closing the door on it but I am very skeptical.

it as an option to private for profit insurance that will cover any and all people who wish to enroll.

For a fee......right?

Will the compition for the remaining customers increase?

If they are healthy......

have a good weekend.... I'm out.

If they are healthy......

#63 | Posted by eberly

You mean if ACORN doesn't come by and bust their knee caps. LOL

#59 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

Again - what is your point. All business have to compete. My customer stay with me because of the service I provide.

Are you still with your same agent even after be solicited?

Where did you get you 75% number? I have never seen that number before.

You mean if ACORN doesn't come by and bust their knee caps. LOL


#65 | Posted by STIRSUMUP


Yep.

That's right.

I see where you are coming from.

Politics before people.

Good for you...

have a good weekend.... I'm out.

#64 | Posted by eberly at 2009-05-29 05:04 PM

You too, and I hope things are going well with your Mom.

Like I said before, if you need any suggestions on any medical supplies and/or other items (like handheld shower nossels, even forks and spoons which are specifically made for easier gripping, etc.) that might help her and/or your Dad to make day to day living a little easier for them, please don't hestitate to ask me. I can provide you with links. Dealt with almost every caretaking need and available item on the market when helping with my own folks.

#66 | Posted by Prolix247

Your missing the point. Pick a %. It will be a larger and larger percentage each year. You will be in direct competition with your country's Social Services. The Government doesn't like competition (RE:DOE). They will change the rules until you are out of business. (See The Lotus Eaters)

#64 | Posted by eberly

You too...

#69 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

I am not going to worry myself over your political insecurities. I will continue to do my business and keep an ear the tracks to decide how to best respond.

You didn't answer my question though. Did you change your agent after being solicited?

I would guess no, because insurance agents gain loyalty based on trust. My clients fully trust me to act on their behalf and their best interest.

I'm calling Bs on you selling insurance.

#34 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

So, are you still calling BS?

#71 | Posted by Prolix247

All the personal insurance (dental,health,homeowners,wind
/hale,flood,ect..) is with a new carrier as of 09'. All my commercial insurance is through my old agent. He's on chemo but he's the smartest agent I know. He's with Allstate but most of the commercial policies are with another underwriter and are complicated due the nature of my business.

So, are you still calling BS?

#72 | Posted by Prolix247

How long have you been in business? Do you own your own business/franchise?

I have been doing this for 5 years. I only do Health (individual and commercial) and Life/Annuities. I am a broker so I sell all major admitted insurance companies. I have my own business.

I have another agent that I partner with who ironically is an allsate agent who does P&C along with all the allstate products.

We farm business to each other so it works out fine.

I work for an oil and gas company and I have kick ass benefits.

Just thought that would make everyone feel better.

Oh, and it's one industry that's never needed a bailout!


That is one months family premiums.

#1 | Posted by 726

So now we are going to multiply that times Twelve....and this is going to save us money....how?

You can make this same argument for uninsured motorists, people that file frivolous lawsuits, shoplifters, and for that matter, tax cheats.

hidden costs are not usually all that well hidden to those of us that own and operate businesses of any sort.

Deadbeats cost money.. they always have, which is why overall as a society, we shouldn't reward deadbeats or punish productive people under the phony guise of "fairness"

"Universal Healthcare in and of itself is not reform, it as an option to private for profit insurance that will cover any and all people who wish to enroll."

Just like the housing reforms of the 90s made available new loan options to private for profit mortgage firms that could cover any and all people who could not ordinarily afford a home. Sounds like new actors in the same old show.

Furthermore, how many you calling for universal health care donated a substantial portion of your income last year to charities that provide care for the uninsured?

The company I work for just offered me a plan that would have cost me $253 a month for bare-bones $40 co-pay health insurance. With the economy seemingly waiting for the other foot to fall, and my job heavily reliant on businessmen opting for hiring a competent driver and car to see to their transportation needs in unfamiliar cities, I did the math only to discover I can either eat regularly, or I can have health insurance (or a reasonable facsimile there of). I confess I fall into the category of those poor unfortunates struggling to reliably earn enough fungible assets to accomplish either, let alone both at the same time.

So isn't that the "progressive" way? The people that CAN pay for insurance subsidize those that can't or won't. Obama's plan will force those people to pay for insurance that they don't want, and guess what - they will STILL show up at the ER for their runny noses. Savings: none. Extra costs due to bureaucratic overhead: huge. Quality of health care: droppin like a rock.

The current system ain't all that broke. Obamacare will leave us with a more expensive system that takes away freedom of choice while rationing healthcare and giving the government even more control over our lives. Literally.

I have great insurance, but if you show up at an ER it's $150 co-pay. That will discourage unnecessary ER visits. The problem is the people they are doing this for are unwilling to pay anything. They all have cell phones and cable but don't have the money to take their kids to the doctor.

You'd pay a lot more in taxes under ObamaCare, and the quality of care and access would decrease.


#7 | Posted by vernon

Pure supposition.

How much do we spend every year to carry 'uninsured motorist' coverage on our cars? I thought it was a law thet everyone had to have insurance.

Another way of putting it would be that I am happy to pay the $1,017 to cover this "over billing" on my services so that providers can absorb the uninsured.

Seriously. I really think this is cheap.

#3 | Posted by eberly

Well, I don't think its my responsibility. Why don't you pay mine fore me too.

Seriously. I really think this is cheap.


#3 | Posted by eberly


It's a hell of a lot cheaper than universal health care is going to be.

str, you are correct on that. I wasn't argueing cost, I am against SOCALISM.

but, but, but....it doesn't matter what happens to people. FIRE must prevail (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate).

The main problem with health care is the run-a-way cost increases. A secondary problem is the uninsured. A big percentage of the uninsured choose to not carry insurance, usually healthy young people.

Instead of tackling the main problem with health care (insurance included) The Obama Administration and congress choose to ignore the primary problem and instead attempt to fix the secondary problem.

My daughter called to find out the price of an eye exam. She was told the price was $96. When she went in she presented her insurance card which pays 50% of the bill. They told her she owed $78. When she questioned it they told her the price quote was for someone without insurance and the price with insurance was $156. She decided to take her business elsewhere and made two more calls before she found someone who didn't have different prices for the same service.

Apparently this is quite common which in turn keeps insurance premiums high.

Another example. Ultrasound machines range from $3000 to $15000. They charge from $100 to $400 for an ultrasound (approx. 15 minutes). Do the math and figure out how long it will take the Dr/hospital to recoup the cost of the machine. After that the profit margin is very high.

The brakes are squeaking on health care and and the government decides the way to fix this is to change the fuel pump.

If the legislatures would get out of the way and allow people to buy cutomized insurance, it would be affordable. I want only catastrophic and long term care, but our enlightened state government says it's all or nothing. Hence I have to help people pay for their innoculations and examinations etc. in order to be insured myself.
Let's face it: these laws are there only because of insurance companies and the AMA buying votes.

everyone's missing the point. Can someone point out in the constitution where it states that anyone in American has the RIGHT to health care or health care insurance? Don't remember seeing that.

How about this: Lower Taxes, get rid of Malpractice insurance, health care insurance and the fucking lawyers. Let people walk into a doctors office if they can afford it and pay their bill. Can't afford it? Then just get sick and die or find someone who will pay your bill. :-)

get rid of Malpractice insurance, health care insurance and the fucking lawyers.

so you are fine if the doctor (and the hospital) amputates your left leg or removes your good kidney or performs any procedure that is later considered to have been a huge mistake??

You will want no recovery for that?

left leg (rather than your right)

sorry

left leg (rather than your right)

I had surgery for the first time last year. The nurse comes in and asks me what I'm in there for. I told her sub-inguinal hernia repair. She asks me what side. I tell her right. Then she put an X on my left side sub-inguinal area.

This kind of shocked me they didn't trust their own charts, but in retrospect, I guess you can't be too careful, even in a non-critical thing like a hernia.

so you are fine if the doctor
(and the hospital) amputates
your left leg

I don't need my leg amputated. :-)

Okay, seriously, though- No, I wouldn't be okay with that. I would think, however, that there would be a way to prevent this, since it seems to be a simple thing to doublecheck.

But again, I'm sure there's a way to handle this stuff privately. I know this: Getting rid of ambulance chasers would be a good thing for this country.

Well, I don't think its my responsibility. Why don't you pay mine fore me too.

Seems to me the tobacco taxes covers you already. As well as the so called uninsured. Of course much of that already goes to failed programs like SCHIP.

"Well, I don't think its my responsibility. Why don't you pay mine fore me too."

Fair enough. I don't think its my responsibility to pay for the public schools for your kids with my taxes either, since I don't have any.

Can I get a refund?

Fair enough. I don't think its my responsibility to pay for the public schools for your kids with my taxes either, since I don't have any.


Can I get a refund?

Not from me. I am in the same boat. What's worse is nieces and nephews wanting to go to private schools. The Government has been getting a bonanza from me the last 30 years.

Comments are closed for this entry.

Drudge Retort

Home | News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | Copyright 2009 World Readable