I posted this on another thread:

Of course, if a VAT is passed then Obama is a straight-up liar - he made the declaration that taxes would not be increased on those making less than $250,000, and a VAT is definitely a tax increase on the poor and middle class.

A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor.

I can already see the spin coming from the Obama administration if this were passed:

We said "income taxes" of those making $250,000 or less would not be raised; we never said anything about a sales tax.

Just another method of shifting the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and working class.

I can already see the spin coming from the Obama administration if this were passed:

We said "income taxes" of those making $250,000 or less would not be raised; we never said anything about a sales tax.

#3 | Posted by taxman

Precisely.

It's no different than righties citing the progressivity of the income tax code as if it's the ONLY taxes levied on an individual.

Just another method of shifting the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and working class.

#4 | Posted by danni

If our economy keeps moving in the direction it's going all of this will be irrelevant - can't tax someone who earns no income and spends no money.

I would think one approach to reducing the "regressiveness" of a VAT would be to treat any VAT taxes paid as a refundable credit against income taxes for those making $250,000 or less, and and creditable (i.e. not refundable) for those making more than $250,000. I would have to sit down and run the numbers on this and don't have time right now, but it will be a cool weekend project (plus it will be something I can mail out to clients). The other option would be to make VAT taxes deductible, not creditable, for those making more than $250,000. Again I would have to run the numbers.

How about we just reduce wasteful government spending, which will in turn reduce the deficit, and which will allow us to reduce income taxes. Seems like a logical progression to me.

If you want the gov't to be your mommy, you're gonna have to pay for it. Just like every other country that has socialized health care.

Either we cut spending (which no one seems to be able to do) or we tax the shit out of everyone.

Here's an idea. Let's let the gov't be responsible for delivering the mail and defending the borders. Everything else is too much gov't involvement in our lives. In view of the internet thing, maybe we can even loose the 'deliver the mail' part.

#9

There go:

Law Enforcement
Firemen
Safe roads
Safe water
Safe food
Safe drugs
Consumer protection
Worker safety
Worker rights
Oversight of the financial sector (Bush's 'look the other way' crowd aside)

etc
etc
etc

Sounds good in theory, but not pragmatic.

all these new taxes just may bring the two major parties together?

i suppose the extra $16.00 on a person's check each week will be done away with...

Why don't we just repeal the Bush/Reagan tax cuts and put our country back together again.
Oh wait, I know, the wealthy don't like to have to pay taxes. I forgot.
I just wish they would quit pretending to be Americans.

#7 | Posted by taxman

A VAT hit a product at every level from production to the sale. Every single component is taxed separately and then the whole thing is taxed again. I don't think you could come up with an equation that would cover calculating the total tax on even the most basic products.

A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

Too funny, apparently this was an issue back in 1984:

There go:
Law Enforcement
Firemen
Safe roads
Safe water
Safe food
Safe drugs
Consumer protection
Worker safety
Worker rights
Oversight of the financial sector (Bush's 'look the other way' crowd aside)
etc
etc
etc
Sounds good in theory, but not pragmatic.

But it's going to happen. Remember, government lives off of taxes. As the tax well is draining, a VAT tax speads up the process.

Over these next few years, you are going to see tragedies and civil unrest you would not imagine could happen here.

A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

#14 | Posted by taxman

The nation's debt would stabilize?

I think you forgot to factor in government corruption, ineptitude, and malfeasance.

The government could usurp every nickel in the economy and it still would not be enough money!

A tax revolt is right around the corner - you are already seeing it in reduced tax receipts at the IRS.

The average citizen is beginning to say "fuck you" to the taxman. That will only increase.

Over these next few years, you are going to see tragedies and civil unrest you would not imagine could happen here.

Empty threats of violence, the imbecile's last resort. It seems to me that Paultard's get huffy and puffy when the idea of class warfare comes about, but it's ok to threaten violence if their taxes go up. Pay up, Ray, or go to jail, thems your choices.

Taxman
If the Feds could tax every person and business 100% for the next ten years, they wouldn't have enough revenue to cover the eplosion in deficits and debt.

I've been watching the Treasury bond market go into freefall in recent weeks. Obama is running out of credit.

Empty threats of violence, the imbecile's last resort. It seems to me that Paultard's get huffy and puffy when the idea of class warfare comes about, but it's ok to threaten violence if their taxes go up. Pay up, Ray, or go to jail, thems your choices.

#18 | Posted by taxman

I personally know several people that cheated on their taxes this year - big time.

And not necessarily because they thought they were paying too much.

One guy told me he's happy he cheated, that paying would make him an enabler of bad government, and they can "catch me if they can, game on mother fuckers!".

People are pissed off about the corruption, ineptitude, and malfeasance of government itself!

Before our government schemes up ways to fleece the taxpayer even more, they should start to show a little respect for the money they already take from us.

"One guy told me he's happy he cheated, that paying would make him an enabler of bad government, and they can "catch me if they can, game on mother fuckers!"."

I LOVE folks like that.

They usually come to me afterward, begging me to get them out of the mess. Without fools like that, I couldn't afford to take 3-6 vacations a year.

They usually come to me afterward, begging me to get them out of the mess. Without fools like that, I couldn't afford to take 3-6 vacations a year.

#21 | Posted by Danforth

They usually come to you afterward?

I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day. This government is so inept the possibility of an IRS audit is remote and about as random as lightening.

Only the ignorant pay what the government tells them to pay. Everybody else figures out ways to cheat.

"This government is so inept the possibility of an IRS audit is remote and about as random as lightening."

Just exactly how clueless are you?

"Only the ignorant pay what the government tells them to pay."

Some patriot you are. Others would substitute "honest" for "ignorant".

"Everybody else figures out ways to cheat."

Thanks for admitting what you do on a public blog.

"This government is so inept the possibility of an IRS audit is remote and about as random as lightening."

Just exactly how clueless are you?

"Only the ignorant pay what the government tells them to pay."

Some patriot you are. Others would substitute "honest" for "ignorant".

"Everybody else figures out ways to cheat."

Thanks for admitting what you do on a public blog.

#23 | Posted by Danforth

The Founders found it patriotic NOT to pay taxes to the King.

And for many of the same reasons today's patriots chose not to pay as well.

When the government, any government, abuses its obligation to respect tax proceeds, it's time to oppose that government - something the IRS is seeing now, but mis-characterizing.

It's not so much the downturn in the economy as it is average people figuring out ways to cheat.

As for me, I'm a pussy (like you) and simply pay up. My commentary is no less valid though.

As for me, I'm a pussy (like you) and simply pay up. My commentary is no less valid though.

#24 | Posted by BENDOR

I suppose I am a pussy too, because I got audited this year (for last years tax returns). It was my first time to be audited in 36 years. They were right and I wrote them a check.

My pussy is sore now.

"The Founders found it patriotic NOT to pay taxes to the King."

I agree; let's not pay taxes to the King.

"When the government, any government, abuses its obligation to respect tax proceeds, it's time to oppose that government"

Then I'm sure you can link to numerous posts where you bashed Bush for abusing his obligation to respect tax proceeds.

"I'm a pussy (like you) and simply pay up."

I believed the word you used to describe that was ignorant.

This government is so inept the possibility of an IRS audit is remote and about as random as lightening.

That was true under President Bush, but President Obama is going on a hiring spree at the IRS.

Some patriot you are. Others would substitute "honest" for "ignorant".

"Everybody else figures out ways to cheat."

Thanks for admitting what you do on a public blog.

#23 | Posted by Danforth

That's a good one!

Honestly pay taxes to a dishonest government!

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Our entire elected government is corrupt, yet people like you expect the citizens to be honest...

...why?

Obama's entire cabinet does or did have tax trouble. Because they cheated.

I wish I wasn't such a pussy. I should probably be cheating too.

The Founders found it patriotic NOT to pay taxes to the King.

Bull shit, the Founders were against taxation without representation. You, my friend, are fully represented in the House and the Senate.

My pussy is sore now.

Posted by Lipzoidial at 2009-05-27 05:08 PM

Give it a rest and maybe find a soft cushion to lay on.

"The Founders found it patriotic NOT to pay taxes to the King."

I agree; let's not pay taxes to the King.

You agree?

But wasn't that illegal? Wasn't that unpatriotic?

"Honestly pay taxes to a dishonest government! That makes sense, doesn't it?"

Actually, no. It didn't fly with my mom when I was in second grade, so I'm always surprised when grown adults think they can get away with the same bullshit.

"Our entire elected government is corrupt, yet people like you expect the citizens to be honest......why?"

Because my concept of right or wrong doesn't change when someone else is wrong.

"Obama's entire cabinet does or did have tax trouble."

That's a lie.

"Because they cheated."

But I thought that's what you thought they should do. Which is it?

"But wasn't that illegal? Wasn't that unpatriotic?"

Tell you what...go grab a musket, and overthrow the powers-that-be.

"I wish I wasn't such a pussy."

Don't forget ignoramus.

The Founders found it patriotic NOT to pay taxes to the King.

Bull shit, the Founders were against taxation without representation. You, my friend, are fully represented in the House and the Senate.

#29 | Posted by taxman

You just don't get it.

Do you?

The House and Senate are irrevocably corrupt!

The People are NOT represented at all.

Enough with the rich don't pay taxes (I ain't rich). This is a tired and untrue statement the Libs have been spewing for years. One only has to spend about a 1/2 hour on the IRS website to see the breakdown of who is paying what.

Only an idiot believes they can tax themselves to prosperity!

How about spending less than you make or take in? Sound fairly reasonable.

The People are NOT represented at all.

#34 | Posted

Someone who never votes because the people are not represented, lmfao!

The House and Senate are irrevocably corrupt!

The People are NOT represented at all.

"The People" have the right to vote, how are they not represented?

""The People" have the right to vote, how are they not represented?"

Oh please...he doens't really believe that, he's just using it as an excuse to justify being a tax cheat.

The House and Senate are irrevocably corrupt!

The People are NOT represented at all.

"The People" have the right to vote, how are they not represented?

#37 | Posted by taxman

The right to vote?

Fool. Our entire electoral process is broken. Corrupt beyond repair.

"Votes" are bought, manufactured, and lost whenever its convenient.

Your vote is useless - the only hope the U.S. has is congressional term limits.

And that will never happen. So, we all will now get to watch the U.S. go broke.

The right to vote?

Fool. Our entire electoral process is broken. Corrupt beyond repair.

"Votes" are bought, manufactured, and lost whenever its convenient.

Your vote is useless - the only hope the U.S. has is congressional term limits.

And that will never happen. So, we all will now get to watch the U.S. go broke.

Posted by BENDOR at 2009-05-27 05:31 PM | Reply

Aren't the voters ultimately responsible for the Garbage that's in Washington D.C. today?? Aren't we the ones who hold the garbage bag for this mess??

Larry

Aren't the voters ultimately responsible for the Garbage that's in Washington D.C. today?? Aren't we the ones who hold the garbage bag for this mess??

Larry

#40 | Posted by LarryMohr

Collectively, yes.

Individually, people are, more and more, cheating on their taxes.

We said "income taxes" of those making $250,000 or less would not be raised; we never said anything about a sales tax.

----

The same can be said for taxes on sugary sodas and alcohol that are being floated around as well.

Don't shoot the messenger here taxman.

I'm simply pointing out what I see and hear going on.

People are leaving, in droves, high tax states. Those that can are leaving the U.S. itself. And a growing number of people are cheating or playing loose with the taxes.

Your saying they shouldn't.

I'm simply saying they are. And pointing out the reasons.

"Individually, people are, more and more, cheating on their taxes.

#41 | Posted by BENDOR at 2009-05-27 05:36 PM | Reply | Flag: SCHEDULED FOR AUDIT

Aren't the voters ultimately responsible for the Garbage that's in Washington D.C. today?? Aren't we the ones who hold the garbage bag for this mess??

Sadly, that is true. I think we are following a common historical pattern. Success sows the seeds of destruction as a culture forgets what made them successful. They go from a culture of workers and savers to a culture of borrowers and spenders.

How about the feds just stop spending and let the states worry about sales taxes? UNLESS they want to do away with the income tax period, and just incorporate the Fair Tax.. which is in effect a national sales tax.

This is California all over on a national scale..

We're spending ourselves bankrupt while the economy remains at a standstill.. the answer.. let's kill the economy even more with additional taxes...

We have idiots in charge..

Throw the bums out..

Just another method of shifting the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and working class.

As with most things, the devil's in the details. It should be possible to eliminate certain goods and services from the tax or to tax them at lower rates. Staples such as milk, eggs, bread, etc. could be taxed at a lower rate which would reduce the regressive nature of the tax.

Because America is (was?) a consumption driven economy, I think the real danger in a VAT would be to discourage consumption which seems like would lead to lower economic activity.

How about we just reduce wasteful government spending, which will in turn reduce the deficit, and which will allow us to reduce income taxes. Seems like a logical progression to me.

#8 | Posted by taxman

yawn.

It'll take HUGE cuts in "wasteful" spending, unless you go after military expenditures.

I love these arguments using BS terms with absolutely no parameters or specifics.

Here's an idea - let's elimnate tax breaks "for people who don't need them", and eliminate all programs that "don't work", then we can raise taxes on "the very rich", and end "unfair loopholes".

That should work. I think I'll email my representative and include my suggestion along with taxman's (although his is much better). Should do the trick.

We have idiots in charge..

Throw the bums out..

#46 | Posted by nmg_no

It's far worse than a case of simple idiots nmg no.

We have corrupt politicians in charge.

We aren't special - history always repeats itself.

And almost always results, eventually, in lots of dead politicians.

I think the real danger in a VAT would be to discourage consumption which seems like would lead to lower economic activity.

Don't forget about black market activity. Organized crime would see a significant rebound under a VAT regime.

Also, I think many of you are confusing VAT and a National Sales tax. A VAT is imposed on sales at every level and on compensation for services. For example, X corp makes Product. In order to make product X must purchase widgets and other parts. X will have to pay a VAT on the widgets, and you will have to pay a VAT on the Product (plus there will be a mark up for the VAT that X paid on the widget). When you get busted for buying on the black market and hire an attorney to represent you, you will have to pay a VAT for those services. It isn't as simple as a sales tax.

It'll take HUGE cuts in "wasteful" spending, unless you go after military expenditures

Why not subject each program receiving federal funds to a stringent audit of how those funds are spent. Any wasteful spending - i.e., a $100 hammer - will result in reduced funding for the program, and excessive waste will subject the program to termination. Moreover, we as voters should pay more attention to pork even if it brings jobs back to our districts.

Don't forget about black market activity. Organized crime would see a significant rebound under a VAT regime.

Absolutely. Right now we have a system of W-2, 1099s etc.. with FEIN #s and SS#s.

It doesn't mean we don't have tax evasion but I can only imagine how corrupt it would get under a VAT system....especially any VAT written by THIS govt.

#1 | Posted by taxman
#4 | Posted by danni

"Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea"

Fisrt off this is not a money making idea!! Its a fucking TAX!!! The government dosent make money they TAKE money from the people(well except if you are part of the current administration). Just another Oboma promise that he is looking to slither out of. It's been just over 100 days and he is reneiged on most of the promises you suckes gobbled up faster than a hooker with a 8 ball of coke Dont say we didnt call you a fool to start. ANy body that voted for this idiot that makes more th 50K a year was a fool. But please lets hear from the fools as they try to justify this. Let the sheep start the bleeting.

Damn, I thought he said he would only tax the rich. Doesn't a sales tax apply to all consumers, including your 6 yr old grand daughter?

Oops...
I screwed up.
I meant NRST, not VAT.
I have considered both but I'm more inclined to support NRST over VAT.
However, I would not oppose VAT if it meant eliminating wage withholding.

We have idiots in charge..

Throw the bums out..

#46 | Posted by nmg_no

That's what I said during the last congressional election. The bums got thrown out. The Dems took that as a mandate to push there agenda. I HOPE that's what we see in the next election cycle. If we keep throwing the bums out, eventually, hopefully we will get some representation.

Fisrt off this is not a money making idea!! Its a fucking TAX!!!

#54 | Posted by WI_Hunter

Thankyou! On top of all the taxes we already pay. And the other new taxes they are coming up with. And wait till you see the inflation starting. Right now we are in a period of deflation. It's not going to last. Take that gallon of milk Taxman, add your VAT and then 5-15% inflation. NO increase in jobs or income. Nice!

their looking to tax your worker health insurance and next will be your 401k and anything else that moves.

"On top of all the taxes we already pay."

How can you complain about taxes being too high when we're in the midst of the largest deficits in recorded history?

How can you complain about taxes being too high when we're in the midst of the largest deficits in recorded history?

#60 | Posted by Danforth

Stupid Question. Poor representation. People wanting too many services....Plus I write the checks directly to the government. I don't have an employer. I actually know how much I pay.

How can you complain about taxes being too high when we're in the midst of the largest deficits in recorded history?

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-05-27 06:56 PM

Another great post from the idiot that claims he's a tax account!

These are some real gems danny boy keep up the good work on this site your a hero. Just a warning dont try this with 80% of the thinking population that dont post here on your liberal wingnut site.

"Poor representation. People wanting too many services."

That has nothing to do with your taxes being too high, until we're at least paying for these services.

"Plus I write the checks directly to the government. I don't have an employer. I actually know how much I pay."

So do I. But again, that doesn't change the fact we aren't even paying today's bills. So, at the sake of asking a "Stupid Question" again, how can you complain about taxes being too high when we're in the midst of the largest deficits in recorded history? We're already a nation of freeloaders, getting more in services than we're paying for by a longshot. Why, during record deficits, is part of your plan to pay for even less?

(And yes, I'd like to put that last question to Obama and the Dems as well.)

The government could usurp every nickel in the economy and it still would not be enough money!

A tax revolt is right around the corner - you are already seeing it in reduced tax receipts at the IRS.

The average citizen is beginning to say "fuck you" to the taxman. That will only increase.

#17 | Posted by BENDOR

You are right on target with your statements. If anybody thinks the government will finaly get enough tax money, they are nucking futs.

"These are some real gems danny boy keep up the good work on this site your(sic) a hero"

*Sigh*
Another freeloader who is more willing to put burdens on his kids and grandkids than stand up and pay his bills.

Look, I'm all for cutting spending. But like cold fusion, wake me up when it actually happens. In the meantime, I'll advocate for paying our bills.

Radical notion, no?

What would the Founders be saying today?

~ No taxation without (honest) representation ~

In defense in Obama's tax hikes all I can do is quote liberals...."yea but Bush and the righties blah blah blah!"

One guy told me he's happy he cheated, that paying would make him an enabler of bad government, and they can "catch me if they can, game on mother fuckers!".

People have been using that excuses like that to cheat on their taxes for years. "I'm opposed to the VN war, I'm not paying taxes." "I'm opposed to foreign aid, I'm not paying taxes."" I don't like President fill-in-the-blank, I'm not paying taxes."

Christ, these guys voted for Reagan, got their tax cuts, and then still moved their money to offshore accounts. It's just a way of trying to justify fraud.

#65 | Posted by Danforth

I get the impression that you are a tax attorney or an accountant? If this is the case explain to me how, in an economy in the condition ours is in, with the amount of taxes we currently pay afford to pay more? A VAT is a tax on ALL the components of a product, at every point in production all the way to the sale. It's almost impossible to calculate the total tax on a product now. With all the taxes paid just to bring a product to the consumer now, You think people want to pay more. Cut federal spending first. Then ask us to chip in more...

"A tax revolt is right around the corner - you are already seeing it in reduced tax receipts at the IRS"

That's really only one piece of the puzzle, and probably a very small one. More likely culprits:

a) the fact job millions of job losses greatly reduce quarterly wage withholdings, and ultimately, revenue

b) the fact virtually every investor subtracted $3000 from his taxable income in 2008, and knows he'll do it in '09 and maybe a few more years as well

c) the fact estimated tax payers should be paying less anyway

d) the fact the tax rates have dropped slightly, or

e) a myriad of other reasons: rental income may be down, bank interest is near historic lows, dividend returns will be thinner, reduced retirement balances will require lower minimum taxable distributions, etc., etc., etc.

How quaint, how predicable deceitful . . .

The title to the article should read:

Democrats Consider National Sales Tax

How can you complain about taxes being too high when we're in the midst of the largest deficits in recorded history?

#60 | Posted by Danforth

How bout cutting spending? WOW, do you think that might help the deficits? Oh hell no, lets hire 100k new gov workers and pay them twice as much as someone in the private sector makes!!!

How bout you? Do you demand a raise everytime you overspend? If that works, let the rest of us in on it.

'How bout cutting spending?'

To logical, and it's worked in the past. Doesn't pass the Democrat smell test. Democrats will invade Canada before they would consider such madness.

I hate to piss on everybody's parade, but we should be paying more taxes.

If we expect the gov't to take care of us, then we should have to pay room and board.

The distinguishing factor among every politician ever has been to get as much for his sector of people as he can, regardless of it's impact on the collective.

This is a term we need to become familiar with; 'collective' and it's bastard son, 'taxes', ya know, to pay for the collective.

(Note: this should have gone out 20 minutes ago...the bride called me to dinner.)

"...how, in an economy in the condition ours is in, with the amount of taxes we currently pay afford to pay more?"

I don't know. But I do know that we owe more.

"A VAT is a tax..."

Whoa...before you get started, I'm completely against this VAT idea. In our society, most of the taxes are regressive, hitting the poorest the hardest. Sales taxes, gasoline taxes, excise taxes, Medicare taxes, property taxes, etc., are all regressive, and Social Security taxes are super-regressive, since they have a ceiling. The only two progressive taxes we have are estate, and income, and those have flattened out considerably with the cap gains & dividends ceilings at 15% (while sweat-of-the-brow work is taxes as much as 35%). The VAT would be just one more tax on a landscape that doesn't need a new tax bureaucracy.

"Cut federal spending first."

Absolutely. I agree 100%.

But we have to be realistic: we're used to getting and not paying. That will change, one way or another.

VAT taxes are applied differently according to the service. Food is generally much lower. You can claim back VAT if the work or parts are part of home improvement. Or you just pay in cash and don't worry about the VAT.

"To logical, and it's worked in the past. Doesn't pass the Democrat smell test"

Sorry, Zulu, you guys had your chance and spent the five largest amounts known to man, and left the biggest deficits since the dawn of time. You're hardly the go-to experts.

"Or you just pay in cash and don't worry about the VAT."

And break the law, while ultimately undermining the country. But still...it's your choice....

Democrats will invade Canada before they would consider such madness.

#73 | Posted by zulu

Lets bring it on.

Why not just increases taxes on the wealthiest top percentiles of Americans up to about the 50% level of earned income like they do in Europe. I would support such a proposal. All these GOP tax cuts over the years have achieved is making the wealthy obscenely wealthier, and simultaneously bankrupting the nation.

Because America is (was?) a consumption driven economy, I think the real danger in a VAT would be to discourage consumption which seems like would lead to lower economic activity.

#47 | Posted by FedUpWithPols

This is the worse kind of taxation.

The economy will stagnate and unemployment will explode and stay at chronic levels--just like EU.

'All these GOP tax cuts over the years have achieved is making the wealthy obscenely wealthier, and simultaneously bankrupting the nation.'

First, it doesn't matter how much you make it's how much you spend. Family budget, budget of the U.S. of A. It's all the same. Social experimentation, such as the Community Reinvestment Act (which led to the current financial meltdown we are enjoying), is expensive and well beyond the scope of governance this nation was founded on. So as a nation we need to recognize well intended social programs are both tremendously expensive and eventually blow up in faces. Think Social Security and Medicaid / Medicare.

Secondly, the class warfare mentality which demonizes the rich is childish. Please look at tax receipts to the Federal Government:

such as the Community Reinvestment Act (which led to the current financial meltdown we are enjoying),

More rightwing bullshit. It was on Chimpy's watch(ownership society) that the housing market blew up, taking the economy with it.

How can you complain about taxes being too high when we're in the midst of the largest deficits in recorded history?

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-05-27 06:56 PM

This, from a person who makes his sustenance performing as an agent for the government.

Anyone else shocked?

Of course, if a VAT is passed then Obama is a straight-up liar - he made the declaration that taxes would not be increased on those making less than $250,000, and a VAT is definitely a tax increase on the poor and middle class.

#1 | Posted by taxman
-------------------------
and this surprises you? Wait until cap and trade starts draining people's pockets that make far less than $250,000. This guy can lie and get a pass each and every time he does it.

Lonnie

Why not just increases taxes on the wealthiest top percentiles of Americans up to about the 50% level of earned income like they do in Europe. I would support such a proposal. All these GOP tax cuts over the years have achieved is making the wealthy obscenely wealthier, and simultaneously bankrupting the nation.

#80 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-05-27 08:31 PM

Wouldn't it be easier if you just moved to Europe? I'm pretty sure it would be easiser for a lot of us.

Why don't we just repeal the Bush/Reagan tax cuts and put our country back together again.
Oh wait, I know, the wealthy don't like to have to pay taxes. I forgot.
I just wish they would quit pretending to be Americans.

#12 | Posted by danni
-------------------
Ok danni, most corporations and wealthy are paying 52% of their earnings towards taxes. How much more do you honestly believe they should pay? I think 52% is a stiff number already.

Lonnie

"This, from a person who makes his sustenance performing as an agent for the government. "

You could not have it more backward. I get paid to show people how they can legally pay less. I've saved clients hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, so if I'm an "agent for the government", they're getting a raw deal.

Will Obama raise taxes? Certainly. Will the U.S. economy suffer?

The only evidence that substantiates the proposition that low tax rates correlate with a robust economy that produces jobs and revenue to the federal government is the last 50 years of economic data which support that conclusion.

At no time in this nations history did raising taxes result in an economic upswing to the economy. At the same time there is no intelligent informed argument that can be made which refutes the fact that cutting taxes after the economic devastation of the September 11th 2001 attacks brought this nation's economy back from the brink of catastrophe.

At no time during the Bush Administration's time in office did revenue to the Federal Government fall below 1.782 trillion dollars as seen in the figures available from the Congressional Budget Office (linked above).

In 2005 revenue to the U.S. government set a record of 2.153 trillion dollars. Figures from the Congressional Budget Office (linked above) show revenue to the federal government were record highs in 2005 (2.153 trillion), 2006 (2.407 trillion) and 2007 (2.568 trillion).

Thanks to reinheitsgebot for providing the link. For some reason reinheitsgebot neglected to include years 2006 and 2007 revenues? I'm sure that wasn't on purpose though. Cherry picking information to try to prove a falsehood is unheard of here on the Drudge by leftwing hacks.

If only we, as a nation, weren't suffering from the recession brought on by well intentioned, yet economically disastrous, liberal home ownership loans stemming from the Carter era Community Reinvestment Act.

One thing is for certain, Obama's Democrat VAT trial balloon should be allowed to crash and burn like the Hindenburg. And good riddance.

You could not have it more backward. I get paid to show people how they can legally pay less. I've saved clients hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, so if I'm an "agent for the government", they're getting a raw deal.

#88 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-05-27 09:40 PM

Without the government confiscating money from its citizens you have no employment.

True, or not?

The way I read Obama is that he is so intent on government control over the economy that he plans on destroying capitalism. None of this chaos fazes him and his minions.

Thanks to reinheitsgebot for providing the link. For some reason reinheitsgebot neglected to include years 2006 and 2007 revenues? I'm sure that wasn't on purpose though. Cherry picking information to try to prove a falsehood is unheard of here on the Drudge by leftwing hacks

The revenue from 2005 was included in the data posted. Dubya's tax cuts led to an unprecedented 3 year period where revenues fell. Zulu also conveneniently lacks to acknowledge the fact that when inflation is added to the equation, tax revenue from the year 2000 is still the best on record.

If only we, as a nation, weren't suffering from the recession brought on by well intentioned, yet economically disastrous, liberal home ownership loans stemming from the Carter era Community Reinvestment Act.

That's funny, the CRA was in place throughout the go-go 90's but the housing market didn't tank until Bush's ownership society Arbustoed the economy. It's not surprising that a right wing hack would fail to realize this.

"Ok danni, most corporations and wealthy are paying 52% of their earnings towards taxes."

Sorry Lonnie, I don't know where you get your numbers but they are utter bull shit. Read a book.

"Wouldn't it be easier if you just moved to Europe? I'm pretty sure it would be easiser for a lot of us."

Oh you really got Moder8 with that one. He's stunned with your brilliance.
Freedom Fries! Yeah. America Fuck Yeah!

"Without the government confiscating money from its citizens you have no employment.
True, or not? "

Not.

My turn: what's your alternative to "the government confiscating money", i.e., taxes?

Interesting since for awhile now I've been mulling the idea of a national sales tax not to exceed 5% but only if all other taxes at the federal, state and local level are nullified and the revenue divvied up roughly as follows:

.20 per $1 to the federal government
.20 per $1 raised to the states
.25 per $1 raised to the counties
.35 per $1 raised to the cities/towns

Of course the sales tax % could never be raised and if any entity couldn't live within their allowance it would be up to said entity to cut expenses to the point that they could pay their bills.

"At the same time there is no intelligent informed argument that can be made which refutes the fact that cutting taxes after the economic devastation of the September 11th 2001 attacks brought this nation's economy back from the brink of catastrophe."

Well, first, let me take off my wading boots, 'cause this is total shit.

Ultimately, you can't prove a negative, and no one has proven we were on "the brink of catastrophe". Sheer garbage.

"most corporations and wealthy are paying 52% of their earnings towards taxes."

I call bullshit.

Link?

From Zulu's post:

"In 2005 revenue to the U.S. government set a record of 2.153 trillion dollars."

WARNING: If you fell for that one, you'd flunk an Econ 101 midterm.

The author is using NOMINAL dollars, which aren't adjusted for inflation, something every Econ freshman must do before going home for fall break. Either the author is stupid, or he's expecting his readers to be stupid.

#94 | Posted by danni at 2009-05-27 10:19 PM

When I didn't like the personal property taxes, vehicle registration fees and real estate taxes in Ct. I moved to another state. I must admit though, never have I met anyone who praised another state and moved there because the volume of taxation was greater. Have you?

I suppose you have though, right? I'll bet you send in double on your real estate or double your rent so that the landlord can pay extra taxes. You're a true patriot, right?

most corporations and wealthy are paying 52% of their earnings towards taxes."

I call bullshit.

Link?

#98 | Posted by Danforth
--------------

Ok, how about the top 10 percent wage earners pay 71% of taxes.

"Ok, how about the top 10 percent wage earners pay 71% of taxes"

Sorry, that doesn't support your claim that "...most corporations and wealthy are paying 52% of their earnings towards taxes.".

Link or retraction, please.

"Ok, how about the top 10 percent wage earners pay 71% of taxes"

Once again, bullshit.

And your link doesn't back up your claim.

I persoanlly support paying 2/3 of our income in taxes if we get the same benefits they do in countries like Finland. You really don't need a ton of money if the basic necessities are provided for you.

Tax the people to bail out the rich.

s.o.p.

The bottom line is tat this has to start with cuts in spending for it to work. That's not the way we're heading. The deficits will continue to rise. You can't spend the whole GDP in one year and expect to tax your way out. It's not possible. There already figuring out new ways of spending it. Soon inflation will be kicking in. That's a huge across the board pay cut for everyone who uses dollars. Do you think the rest of the world will continue to use dollars. There was a time in our early history where our own government refused to except taxes paid in it's own currency due to inflation. Do you think china and our other debt holders are going to except payment of our debt in inflated dollars. Obama can't waive to his magic teleprompter and screw them out of what their owed.Don't think so. It has to start with spending or we're screwed for the foreseeable future.

From Rastaninja:

I persoanlly support paying 2/3 of our income in taxes if we get the same benefits they do in countries like Finland. You really don't need a ton of money if the basic necessities are provided for you.

Stir, we're screwed regardless. Hell, this whole thing started before I was born. Might even have started, in the end, before most of us here were born.

Let me ask you, what makes their judgement over my life better than my own?

Their judgement isn't better for people like me and you. However, idiots like rasta do indeed need a nanny government to function.

Danforth,

'The author is using NOMINAL dollars, which aren't adjusted for inflation, something every Econ freshman must do before going home for fall break. Either the author is stupid, or he's expecting his readers to be stupid. '

Your realize you just accused reinheitsgebot and the Congressional Budget Office of stupidity? I'm not arguing, I just thought you would like to know that's where those crazy numbers came from.

LOL

"The bottom line is tat this has to start with cuts in spending for it to work."

Or...just repeal the REagan tax cuts.

It's not rocket science, it's wealthy Americans hoarding their wealth and in the process killing the economy.
A national sales tax would kill any chance of any recovery ever. It would immediately reduce consumer spending, reduce demand for goods, increase unemployment and end up not raising the revenue needed anyway. The higher you raised it the less it will produce and the more unemployment it will create.

I persoanlly support paying 2/3 of our income in taxes if we get the same benefits they do in countries like Finland. You really don't need a ton of money if the basic necessities are provided for you.

#104 | Posted by rastaninja

Thank you for your contribution to society. You may go now. Your services are no longer required.

You really don't need a ton of money if the basic necessities are provided for you.

#104 | Posted by rastaninja

Isin't there some kind of adult day care that people like you could sign up for.

So I'm not allowed to decide what's best for me in my life, others will make that decision for me? Is this what I'm reading here? Let me ask you, what makes their judgement over my life better than my own?

#107 | Posted by LetUsReason

Northern Europeans are the happiest people on earth. I believe it is from not having to worry about basic necessities. Basically the money they are left with is disposable income. They can get govt subsidized housing and they don't have to worry about healthcare. Nobody is starving there and they have an almost non-existent homeless problem.

Goat keep talking your foolishness. You will be proven wrong.

I persoanlly support paying 2/3 of our income in taxes if we get the same benefits they do in countries like Finland.

I have never been to Finland. Unless you have lived there then I really don't think you have any kind of an informed opinion

Or...just repeal the REagan tax cuts.

Whatever. Rasta's idea of 2/3 tax sounds good too. You have a better chance of landing in Finland than either of those 2 things happening.

Actually you can raise the progressive tax brackets to place high incomes in a higher bracket.

It won't do you nor anybody else any good though.

The top 5% pay 60% of the revenue. Any system you advocate won't place more of that burden to the rich. I know you wish it will but it won't..............ever.

Just another method of shifting the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and working class.

#4 | Posted by danni

The wealthy will be exempt from a VAT?

Letusreason, Their Judgement is better than yours for the simple reason they worry about others and you don't. American greed just isn't working anymore. The Northern European tax structure produces better citizens.

There already is a limited VAT: see the hospitality industry.

Goat keep talking your foolishness. You will be proven wrong.

How? By moving to Finland?

The evidence is on my side on this. Sink or Swim mentality has caused too many Americans to fall through the cracks. Many of you retarded far right wingers need to listen to the Thom Hartmann radio program. He continually speaks on how we are one the few industrialized nations that does not provide universal healthcare. We also have many in this country on the right that want to remove the safety net known as SS. You greedy assholes disgust me.

Look at this map. The highest standard of living is in Northern Europe. Where they pay the high taxes. Our Taxes system isn't working. The poor are getting left behind.

I have spent time in Ireland. Cars are tiny, houses are very small and most everything is imported so cost of living is high.

I live a way way way way better life here in the USA. HOw do they define "standard of living"?

The Northern European tax structure produces better citizens.

Posted by rastaninja

So crappy citizens here can blame the "tax structure"?

Who?

We also have many in this country on the right that want to remove the safety net known as SS.

so what? It isn't going to happen. Stop worrying about it.

I live a way way way way better life here in the USA. HOw do they define "standard of living"?

#122 | Posted by eberly

Poverty levels, Health levels, access to education, happiness levels.

In America we have a widening gap between rich and poor. Most of the wealthy live excessively. Single people buy large homes when a 1 bedroom apartment is needed or they buy an SUV when a small econobox will work fine.

So crappy citizens here can blame the "tax structure"?

Who?

#123 | Posted by eberly

Well in a way. We have soooo many uneducated folks running the street due to lack of education. One of the most effective was to combat poverty is through education. If we remove the barriers to getting an education more people would.

One of the most effective was to combat poverty is through education. If we remove the barriers to getting an education more people would.

And you think our tax structure would change that?

Just change the brackets and everything gets better?

LOL

Look Rasta, you can argue with someone else on this. Obviously MY standard of living would drop living in the only European Country I have visited so you'll have to convince someone else.

Beef up social programs. Provide insurance to all and it would get better for many Americans. Eberly you are wealthy and most likely greedy so I don't doubt you might suffer a little. You may have to give up a little to help the masses.

You may have to give up a little to help the masses.

Fuck The Masses! Tell the Masses to get off their Asses. It's people like you who want to be babied and coddled from cradle to grave that are the DEAD WEIGHT. Maybe your Progressive Heroes will bring back there ideas of Eugenics to cut the dead weight and save Government Funds. It's only a short step. Give up all of your responsibilities and you really will be of no use to your precious Government.

Fuck The Masses! Tell the Masses to get off their Asses.

You are a misinformed idiot. Poor and Lazy are not the same thing.

Poor and Lazy are not the same thing.

But wealthy and greedy are the same thing...right???

Eberly you are wealthy and most likely greedy

LOL

No eberly. Some wealthy people are very generous and don't mind paying taxes. Some of the wealthiest people give away large sums of their fortune. then there is people like the rightwingers on this board that equate donating to their church as giving to the poor.

Oh wait, I know, the wealthy don't like to have to pay taxes. I forgot.
I just wish they would quit pretending to be Americans.

#12 | Posted by danni

Danni, you are an all time idiot, the rich pay most of the taxes, unfortunately for the rest of us you get to propagate and vote simply because you can breath. how sad, should be some sort of test to protect the rest of us from your stupidity.

HOPE and CHANGE

SUCKERS

No eberly. Some wealthy people are very generous and don't mind paying taxes. Some of the wealthiest people give away large sums of their fortune. then there is people like the rightwingers on this board that equate donating to their church as giving to the poor.

#132 | Posted by rastaninja

Then there are those like rastaninja that equate generosity with taxing the shit out of you to give to some lazy bastard, but who never donate to anything philanthropic except perhaps a dollar to fighting aids amongst the California fags.

#132 | Posted by rastaninja

You have society and government confused. Sad....

I persoanlly support paying 2/3 of our income in taxes if we get the same benefits they do in countries like Finland. You really don't need a ton of money if the basic necessities are provided for you.

#104 | Posted by rastaninja

Your reasoning is a bit simplistic. There are other factors that contribute and enable to the presumably happier people and "higher" standard of living than an incredibly high (obscene) tax rate.

- Population: Finland: 5,250,275 (July 2009 est.); US: 307,212,123 (July 2009 est.)

- Low immigration rate in Finland: 0.68 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2009 est.) vs 4.31 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2009 est.) in the US

- Population growth rate: Finland: 0.098% (2009 est.); US: 0.975% (2009 est.)

Source:

"...caused too many Americans to fall through the cracks."

#121 | Posted by rastaninja

Too many Americans are way too fat to fall between the cracks. Mebbe they get wedged in, but fall?

"Single people buy large homes when a 1 bedroom apartment is needed or they buy an SUV when a small econobox will work fine."

#125 | Posted by rastaninja

No frakkin' way am I gonna jam all my crap into a single bedroom apartment. I'll be sleeping in a corner standing up. And where am I gonna park my vehicles? in the apartment building parking lot where they'll be vandalized and broken into regularly?

"We also have many in this country on the right that want to remove the safety net known as SS."

#121 | Posted by rastaninja

SS was never meant to be a long-term, full-blown retirement plan to continue down through the ages. If they wanna kill SS, fine with me. Don't take another penny for FICA outta my pay and they better damn well send me a check for all that I have paid in over the decades. All of it.

#85 Danforth> Look, I'm all for cutting spending. But like cold fusion, wake me up when it actually happens.

The biggest problem I see is that no matter how much tax revenue the federal government gets, it spends more. I do pay my tax bills but it is extremely discouraging to see Obama (and Bush, etc.) always reaching deeper into my pockets while running up huge deficits.

Seems like the ordinary working folks are having to cut back just to keep food on the table and a roof over their head, while the federal government is spending even more money they don't have (Obama said the government doesn't have it and I'm thankful for the admission).

#80 Moder8 > All these GOP tax cuts over the years have achieved is making the wealthy obscenely wealthier, and simultaneously bankrupting the nation

So the increasing federal income tax revenues over the past few decades (during and after income tax cuts) CAUSED the deficits? It's the SPENDING by several administrations (both parties) and members of congress that cause the problem with deficits. Perhaps there is something deep within a politician's DNA that makes spending cuts darned near impossible.

If you want the gov't to be your mommy, you're gonna have to pay for it.

#9 | Posted by Lipzoidial at 2009-05-27 10:05 AM

And mommy plays favorites. Not much talk of drastically increasing taxes on the rich, but a sales tax would drastically affect everyone else.

Fuck everyone considering this tax.

I wonder how much healthcare we could have provided with all that bailout money.

"I do pay my tax bills but it is extremely discouraging to see Obama (and Bush, etc.) always reaching deeper into my pockets while running up huge deficits."

Except they're not reaching deeper into your pockets; they're all about tax cuts. The "pockets" they're reaching into are the Chinese.

#142 Danforth> Except they're not reaching deeper into your pockets; they're all about tax cuts.

I was thinking specifically of all the taxes (including hidden ones) that I've paid over the years since I started working and how the percentage of my income flowing away into tax coffers has increased.

Yes, all politicians toe the 'tax cut' line when running for office, and when some bit of reality slams into them once they take office, their rhetoric seems to change. I hope I live long enough to see enough politicians of either/any party actually cut spending once they get in office (but I'm not holding my breath waiting).

DF> The "pockets" they're reaching into are the Chinese

Methinks those pockets will dry up long before U.S. politicians get all they want. Perhaps when the dollar loses enough value that other countries cease propping it up as they have in the past. The analogy of pigs at a trough is very apt to most members of Congress. Arrgh!!

Don't we want people to buy stuff right now? To keep the economy chugging forward? Wouldn't a sales tax hamper that significantly?

"Don't we want people to buy stuff right now? To keep the economy chugging forward? Wouldn't a sales tax hamper that significantly?"

Absolutely.
Raise the income tax percentage paid by the highest 5%, make capital gains tax the same as income tax on labor, eliminate tax havens, erect tariffs that bring in revenue and protect jobs.
Lots of things we can do without inflicting the most regressive possible tax....a sales tax.

"I was thinking specifically of all the taxes (including hidden ones) that I've paid over the years since I started working and how the percentage of my income flowing away into tax coffers has increased."

And, at the same time, deficits have soared.

Something is rotten in Denmark, USA.

I Pray the liberals push a national sales tax. That will be the beginning of the end for the democrats.

Unbelieveable....And You wonder why gun sales have skyrocketed...I am telling you and I hope I come to my senses soon..Congress is pushing people who can't keep their heads above water now to an armed revolt..These people live in a tax-free, lobby paid-for "animal Farm" world and have no Idea how much working people are really starting to get pissed

If we remove the barriers to getting an education more people would.

#126 | Posted by rastaninja at 2009-05-28 09

Barriers? Public education is free yet in Milwaukee we have 50% graduation rate. These iditos wont even go to school or do any work to graduate with a High School diploma. (the bare minimum to get by)

What Barriers are you talking about? allowing them to take guns to school, requiring them come to class, doing home work, passing tests?

I persoanlly support paying 2/3 of our income in taxes if we get the same benefits they do in countries like Finland. You really don't need a ton of money if the basic necessities are provided for you.

#104 | Posted by rastaninja

I can't wait for our society to collapse and the have nots finally get a piece of the action. I am so sick of rich republicans owning everything and keeping the poor away from the feeding table. When how much you have is determined by what you can take by force and not blood lines I will be satisfied.

#25 | Posted by rastaninja at 2009-05-23 03:26 PM

This is one sick sob.

What ever the govt. doesn't give him he's prepared to take by force?

You're a royal tool!!! I am a repub and I am not rich, I am barely staying a float and all I want to do is punch Reid, Pelosi, Waxman,, Wrangle, Boehner and all those colossal Homo's right in the eye

Get in line!

And Obama said no one earning less than 250k would be taxed.

Liar Liar pants on fire.

Wow. What a plan. There is so little income that income tax revenues have decreased, so instead impose this other tax so that the government has money for its activities. Of course, "the people" will have less so there will be a continuing and accelerated decrease in transactions available to tax.

From the mind of someone who believes that printing money creates wealth. This is the Obama thesis.

Your priority purchase should be shooting irons and ammo. Oh, and go to your local auto junk yard and pick up a couple of car radio antennas.

#152 | Posted by MURPHY

Graetz's proposal drew an endorsement from Volcker, who last year called it "a sensible plan for reform." (Volcker did not respond to a request for comment.) It also has piqued the interest of Conrad, the Senate Budget Committee chairman who argues that it could be modified to accommodate Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on families who make less than $200,000 a year.

Reading is fundamental.

These iditos wont even go to school or do any work to graduate with a High School diploma. (the bare minimum to get by)

No child left behind.

Lots of things we can do without inflicting the most regressive possible tax....a sales tax.

#145 | Posted by danni at 2009-05-28 02:39 PM

Yes, but that does not take care of the campaign donors.

Raise the income tax percentage paid by the highest 5%, make capital gains tax the same as income tax on labor, eliminate tax havens, erect tariffs that bring in revenue and protect jobs.
Lots of things we can do without inflicting the most regressive possible tax....a sales tax.

#145 | Posted by danni

Been there done that, both Hoover and Roosevelt. Of course, Danni expects a different result this time.

The Dumbos aren't looking for a national sales tax to replace our income tax system, but only to augment it.

Washington is out of money, and the Chinese are reluctant to lend them any more, given what the Obamites have managed to do to the dollar in a few weeks' time. Pass the hat around; it's time for the poor people to start paying their fair share too. Which is fine--they're the ones who gave Obama the presidency.

Washington's MO: If a remedy makes matters worse, it means they didn't try hard enough. So they do the same thing again, only harder. They'll spend and spend and spend until they run out of credit. Then they'll borrow against themselves and spend spend and spend. I hate to imagine the wreckage it will take to stop them from this criminal madness.

someone may have already stated this but it may surprise you
I heard a conservative local talker say that this might not be all bad under the right conditions

he said that so many other countries have this and it makes a real problem for us when they sell here there is no tax but when they buy it there is or something like that

OF course he also went on to say that thier corporate tax rates are much lower than ours as well as other taxes...
SOME SORT Of trade inbalance could be helped with this is what he was saying

so IN THE HANDS OF THIS facist...this may not be a great idea