Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, May 22, 2009

This morning, WLS Radio host Mancow Muller subjected himself to waterboarding live on the air. He agreed to the stunt hoping that he would be able to say affirmatively that the interrogation tactic does not constitute torture. NBC 5 has an account of what happened.

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What a fool. Every rightwing nutcase who says this isn't torture should be compelled to try the same experiment. This is so obviously and clearly torture that the denials only further illustrate what partisan hacks these rightwing radio/tv hosts really are.

I wonder, what will be the deflection this time?

That this guy is a plant, or a closeted limpwristed lib? Probably. Anything but the issue.

Atavistic simpletons who can't understand the physiological response waterboarding elicits will never understand that it's torture until they try it.

Watch Christopher Hitchens being waterboarded.

"Atavistic simpletons". I like that. Very good. It has fresher ring to it than "rightwing hacks".

I give the guy credit. A put is body where his mouth took him, took his poison and was honest about the results. Kudos to Man Cow.

Oh HANNITTYY!!!

Hnnity chickenshitted His way out of this Prolix. Yellow bellied wussy He is.

Larry

Way to go Mancow.

Now that is manning up for the truth!

"Way to go Mancow.

Now that is manning up for the truth!
#7 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-05-22 05:37 PM"

I'd never heard of Mancow Muller prior to this story. Regardless of his background/beliefs, I'm impressed with what appears to be his honesty and following through (and I'd have felt the same way and said the same regardless of what he had 'discovered').

Don't think waterboarding is torture?

Know wot'll change yer mind?

Waterboarding.

Be Well.

/Is this Mancow guy a relative of the legendary Manbearpig?

Is this Mancow guy a relative of the legendary Manbearpig

Or that tasty Cajun delicacy turducken?

mancow is a libertarian and an all round great guy - i miss seeing him on fox news in the mornings. wonder if he's ever had a root canal without the benefit of novocaine?

G-Man--you are back!

How was the time away?

Where are all the torture apologists?

How was the time away?

It was great. I went to Mazatlan for 6 days, then went to N Texas to see my granddaughter and their new house. After a couple of days there, I went to South Padre Island for a little more beach time. Except for the two days in N Texas, I was blessed with great weather. I was actually home for just 2 days -- last Wednesday and Thursday. It's getting that time of year where my house and I become strangers for a few months!

Good to be back, Murph.

Next Mancow will try being butt raped to prove that isn't torture also. Or possibly one of his children will be sodomized in front of him to give a more accurate depiction.

This has to be the first time a shock jock has ever suffered torture. Yes sir eeeeeeee Bob that's some horrible raw entertainment material when you can be tortured and then go immediately back on air.

Maybe next week he can volunteer to have electrodes clamped to his genitals and be juiced up live on air.

Or maybe he could submit to having a tooth pulled without novocain? How about being broken on the rack?

Then, after he is out of the hospital (because that's one of the byproducts of real torture) he can have a real opinion because he had really been tortured.

That would be neat.

LOL

confession is good for the soul...

ManCow, an evolved name --- his tolerance is tested and found wanting. He is not harmed.

Waterboarding tests tolerance levels. Torture inflicts permanent damages.

takeitslazy--a created name....banality creates boredom which leads to brain death....

taki, i think i see you in #3?

1. a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain

2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument.

check Oxford though, this is only Webster. plus, it's online.. so... you know, it hurts less.

This raises the question - is everything that is intolerable, regardless of long-term effect (or lack thereof), "torture?"

If you locked me in a small room with ten screaming babies, I'd probably throw my "safety cow" in about three minutes. I'd have suffered the same amount of physical damage mancow did during waterboarding. Does that mean what I described is torture and illegal in the US?

I don't like it = Torture!

More Libtard tortured logic!

Never really thought it wasn't torture. Its more that the 3 people it was used on extensively maybe deserved it a little. No other member of Al Qaeda played a bigger role in the planning of the September 11 attacks than Khalid Sheik Mohammed. It was his idea, his plan. Think of all the things that one event lead too in this country.

I just don't find myself caring if these 3 were tortured. I don't want it used extensively, I don't want it used on Americans, I don't really want it to be legal, but no, I also don't care that someone responsible for the death of 3,000+ Americans was waterboarded and I never will.

John McCain (and many others) have serious physical limitations decades after their torture. Mancow is out having dinner with his wife tonight, no doubt dining out on this latest anecdote and none the worse for wear.

It still seems to me the definition of torture at the very least includes long-term recovery. Waterboarding just doesn't rise to that level.

What some people will do for ratings. 6 seconds then 60 minutes talking about it over coffee behind the mike.

Yes sireeeeee. Proof postive.

BTW, what information did he have that was useful to our national security?

As for the does "don't like it = torture" question. I think its important to remember that the detainees don't have a "safety cow." This continued for them until they talked. Maybe there isn't a lasting physical damage from this, but I've got to think this messed with their heads a little...

But still, I don't care. KSM deserved every drop.

#25 | Posted by Washboard

Reply: His experience helped us to understand a little better what an 8 month infant feels like when his/her oxygen is cut off during a partial birth abortion.

"mancow is a libertarian and an all round great guy - i miss seeing him on fox news in the mornings. wonder if he's ever had a root canal without the benefit of novocaine?

#11 | Posted by nanc"

Another dumb shit comment. I have endured rehabing reconstructive knee surgery how the fuck does this relate to waterboarding? same shit as your root canal analogy. Nanc are you really this fucking stupid?

I'd have suffered the same amount of physical damage mancow did during waterboarding.

He lasted, what? 6 seconds? Once? Not 85, not 183 times, and he came from a comfortable healthy environment surrounded by people he trusted.

Besides, it's not just physical damage. The definition from the MCA 2006:

(B) SEVERE MENTAL PAIN OR SUFFERING DEFINED.
In this section, the term severe mental pain or suffering'
has the meaning given that term in section 2340(2) of
title 18.
(12) CRUEL OR INHUMAN TREATMENT.
(A) OFFENSE.Any person subject to this chapter who
commits an act intended to inflict severe or serious physical
or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering
incidental to lawful sanctions), including serious physical
abuse, upon another within his custody or control shall
be punished, if death results to the victim, by death or
such other punishment as a military commission under
this chapter may direct, and, if death does not result to
the victim, by such punishment, other than death, as a
military commission under this chapter may direct.
(B) DEFINITIONS.In this paragraph: (i) The term serious physical pain or suffering'
means bodily injury that involves
(I) a substantial risk of death;
(II) extreme physical pain;
(III) a burn or physical disfigurement of a serious nature (other than cuts, abrasions, or bruises); or
(IV) significant loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty. (ii) The term severe mental pain or suffering'
has the meaning given that term in section 2340(2) of title 18.
(iii) The term serious mental pain or suffering' has the meaning given the term severe mental pain or suffering' in section 2340(2) of title 18, except that
(I) the term serious' shall replace the term severe' where it appears; and
(II) as to conduct occurring after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, the term serious and non-transitory mental harm (which need not be prolonged)' shall replace the term prolonged mental harm' where it appears.

www.loc.gov

Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 13, Section 2340(2)

"torture" means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) "severe mental pain or suffering" means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from

www.law.cornell.edu

#27 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2009-05-22 08:28 PM


Maybe on his next show he'll allow his skull to be crushed with a big pair of sterile pliars. I'll bet it'll be difficult to have coffee behind the mike after that one, eh?

But still, I don't care. KSM deserved every drop.

Which means you're an emotional pants-pisser that's not seeking any useful intelligence to make us safer, but vengeance. At least you're more honest than the rest of the torture apologists.

I am glad to see that waterboarding is effective. I hope we subject more terrorist to it so we can get pertinent information from them.

The fact that we have only used this 3 times means we probably aren't doing our job enough.

Those that support torture support their enemies that support torture.

Larry

"Which means you're an emotional pants-pisser that's not seeking any useful intelligence to make us safer, but vengeance"

Actually I'm really not that emotional one way or the other on this. I don't care that KSM and those two other guys were waterboarded over and over. They are responsible for so much death and destruction.

BTW Yav, since everyone is playing politics with this subject we have no idea what came of these tactics. Obama should release everything... the photos as well as the memos that Cheney released.

And clearly by your response the emotional one here is you

I am glad to see that waterboarding is effective. I hope we subject more terrorist to it so we can get pertinent information from them.

It works for what torture's good for. Getting someone to tell you anything you want to hear. Can you imagine if they'd done this to Mancow and were after information they believed he had, of which he had no knowledge? Sheer terror. Can't win. He'd tell them anything. In fact, that's the same result we got from it.

The fact that we have only used this 3 times means we probably aren't doing our job enough.

Conveniently you confuse "times" with "detainees." 3 known detainees, and over 270 times.

It must be tiring lugging that big brain of yours around.

Those that support torture support their enemies that support torture

As if the ramblings of someone who isn't honest with even himself carry any weight with anyone.

And another thing Yav, even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence just that in his opinion it could have been achieved with other methods more in line with our values. So maybe waterboarding isn't just about vengeance.

As if the ramblings of someone who isn't honest with even himself carry any weight with anyone.

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 08:48 PM | Reply

Whatever poster child for birth control.

I find it interesting that lasting physical damage must be inflicted for some to call it torture.

Not sure if you realize it but mental torture has lasting effects just not that can be seen. Long term psycological torture will leave someone a lot more fucked up than a few broken bones will.

Waterboarding is a psycological torture not a physical one. Locking someone in a room with screaming todlers is also psycological torture, not sure but with three kids of my own I think that the room full of todlers is worse. Then again I have never tried waterboarding so no real basis for comparison.

Yav, you can post all the statutes you want - they don't prove anything right unless you apply them to your argument. The statute says "severe" mental pain and "serious" physical pain or suffering. How are those terms defined and interpreted by military courts? Again, telling someone they are wrong and then posting a statute filled with subjective terms does nothing without some further definition and analysis.

And another thing Yav, even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence just that in his opinion it could have been achieved with other methods more in line with our values.

I do not agree with Obama on several issues, however I know the statement you're incompletely citing.

My moral compass is not dependent on anyone else's opinion.

Whatever poster child for birth control.

I have no idea what this means, but then again, you believe you have only one senator representing you and blue colored blood in your veins. LOL

even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence

#37 | Posted by GreenDad at 2009-05-22 08:49 PM | Reply | Flag


Link?

One aspect of this debate goes beyond waterboarding, the aspect of the United States using any means to defend itself is considered indefensible by the left.

It is a deep rooted component of the liberal psych to feel that 9/11 happened not so much because fundamentalist Muslims hate democracy and our western social freedoms but because the United States is a capitalistic imperialistic power and terrorism is a byproduct.

Quoting Reverend Jeremiah Wright (Obama's pastor for 20+ years), "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost".

Liberals believe that terrorism exists because of what this nation does. In effect, we create terrorists and we deserve what we get. This is the position our current President holds, or he is such a coward he sat in a church for 20 years and kept his mouth shut while listening to such hate and lies.

We deserve this. We have it coming. If some new method or system were devised to interrogate captured enemy combatants that left no a mark on the subject the left would still be outraged and indignant. The ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center would do everything in their power to support the terrorists.

Does waterboarding work? Is waterboarding torture? The left doesn't care, this is the same group of people who supports the killing of babies in the womb. What they do care about is these terrorists want to destroy the United States in it's current form, a Christian Representative Democracy. And the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

""The tenth rule... is you do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments.."

Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky, p. 36

Dennis Blair also said, "there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

It wasn't Obama, it was Blair. I had to look it up again.

www.commercialappeal.com

#44 | Posted by zulu

Well said zulu!


Thanks.

""The tenth rule... is you do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments.."

Exactly what the right has done with this. The party of Flag lapel pins, and "In God we Trust" on our money and now you justify torture with it. You have Lyn Cheney saying Obama is un-American.

How stupid do you take us for?

If some new method or system were devised to interrogate captured enemy combatants that left no a mark on the subject the left would still be outraged and indignant.

And that's the important thing: leaving no marks.

I think that's in the Constitution, right after the first item in the oath of office for the Presidency:" Keep us Safe!"

Cowards.

Oh, and Zulu -welcome back! :)

Gotta watch basketball now. I'm psyched!

Thanks Yav.

even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence

#37 | Posted by GreenDad at 2009-05-22 08:49 PM | Reply | Flag


Link?

#43 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-05-22 08:58 PM | Reply | Flag

I also would like to see a link to support that claim.

Sean Hannity is a nutless little girl. If I ever see him in person I'm going to kick him right in his empty sack.

"Obama gives nuanced defense of his stance on torture
He says harsh interrogation methods may have yielded useful information but that they should still be ruled out. His stance suggests complications in ending Bush-era counter-terrorism tactics."

www.latimes.com

Thanks Zulu, I was having trouble tracking it down...

If I ever see him in person I'm going to kick him right in his empty sack.

I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I am always soooo impressed by the internet tough guys

I was hoping for a quote from Obama, and not an editorial translation.

Let me help you out on why your link is not a proper response:

"Cheney likes torture"

-Me

So, why don't you give us the Obama quote, Zulu, Green, Goatman, etc.....

Betelg if the link was from a Right Wing site and without further quotes from Obama's speech you might have a point.

It was from a legitimate news source, it referenced the speech, he clearly said it. If you don't think he did, get the transcript of the speech.

But at this point you remind me of one of my kids plugging his ears, shutting his eyes and shouting so as not to hear the truth.

So, why don't you give us the Obama quote, Zulu, Green, Goatman, etc.....

???

What obama quote?

(and remember, you wish to establish this statement: "even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence")

Goatman-
The quote doesn't exist. (Maybe you don't wish to join this party; in that case I apologize for including you in the invitation)

So the LA Times is lying about Obama BetelG?

"He says harsh interrogation methods may have yielded useful information but that they should still be ruled out"

Betelg if the link was from a Right Wing site and without further quotes from Obama's speech you might have a point.

It was from a legitimate news source....

LOL, greendad!

(Give me the Obama quote, or retract what you said)

The quote doesn't exist.

???

You are asking me to provide a quote that you admit doesn't exist?!?

I hate to be so harsh -- but you're fucked up, boyd. What is wrong with you?

You are asking me to provide a quote that you admit doesn't exist?!?

Greendad made the assertion, but if you'd like to join him I can't really stop you.

"LOL, greendad!

(Give me the Obama quote, or retract what you said)

#65 | Posted by BetelG"

I will not retract what I said. What I said has been backed up by a legitimate mainstream media outlet. I'm having trouble finding the transcript of the speech, but whether I can find it or not the LA Times says he said it as well.

HE SAID IT.

Allow me to point it out as clearly as I can. Obama did not say this:

"even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence"

So, establish it with Obama's words, or retract it. Even the LA Times link you offered with its interpretation did not state what you claimed.

Here's another link from a press conference:


www.breitbart.com

"President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture, and the information gained from terror suspects through its use could have been obtained by other means. "In some cases it may be harder," he conceded at a White House news conference marking a whirlwind first 100 days in office."

Note that he didn't say the information was crap, or no information was gained. No. He says the information that was gained could have been obtained by other means.

But let me guess BetelG... he didn't say this either though. Just the Media spreading lies.

I'm not attacking Obama here either BetelG, I voted for and support him. All I'm doing is pointing out that even he acknowledges waterboarding and other tactics have worked.

"blue colored blood in your veins"

Because of ... medical charts using blue for the contrast of arteries and veins, it has become a common misconception that the blood in veins is blue. Even some of my science teachers have previously said that blood from veins is blue before it hits air... where instantly it's changed to bright red. Seen under vacuum conditions, this has been disproved.

www.colourlovers.com

I recall I had at least one science teacher who told us that as well. Incorrectly, it turns out.

If you can't handle the answer don't ask the question.

Greendad made the assertion, but if you'd like to join him I can't really stop you.

And if I wanted to, I would. I don't need your blessing. Have you ever known me to shy away from speaking my mind?

Grow up, boyd. Stop the childish games.

"So, establish it with Obama's words, or retract it."

2 links have now been provided to Obama acknowleging intel gathered by so called "harsh tactics." Sorry you are wrong, and you are acting like a child. Like when my kids throw tantrums, I'm choosing not to allow it to continue. Good night, child.

Here is the entire speech. I'm sure Boyd will just say that the bold parts don't say exactly what Green said, but, whatever.

THE PRESIDENT: What I've said -- and I will repeat -- is that waterboarding violates our ideals and our values. I do believe that it is torture. I don't think that's just my opinion; that's the opinion of many who've examined the topic. And that's why I put an end to these practices. I am absolutely convinced it was the right thing to do -- not because there might not have been information that was yielded by these various detainees who were subjected to this treatment, but because we could have gotten this information in other ways, in ways that were consistent with our values, in ways that were consistent with who we are.

I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day, talking about the fact that the British during World War II, when London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, we don't torture -- when the entire British -- all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat. And the reason was that Churchill understood you start taking shortcuts, and over time that corrodes what's best in a people. It corrodes the character of a country.

And so I strongly believe that the steps that we've taken to prevent these kinds of enhanced interrogation techniques will make us stronger over the long term, and make us safer over the long term, because it will put us in a position where we can still get information -- in some cases, it may be harder, but part of what makes us, I think, still a beacon to the world, is that we are willing to hold true to our ideals even when it's hard, not just when it's easy.

At the same time, it takes away a critical recruitment tool that al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations have used to try to demonize the United States and justify the killing of civilians. And it makes us -- it puts us in a much stronger position to work with our allies in the kind of international coordinated intelligence activity that can shut down these networks.

So this is a decision that I am very comfortable with. And I think the American people over time will recognize that it is better for us to stick to who we are, even when we're taking on a unscrupulous enemy.

THE PRESIDENT: I believe that waterboarding was torture. And I think that the -- whatever legal rationales were used, it was a mistake.

I have read the documents. Now, they haven't been officially declassified and released, and so I don't want to go into the details of them. But here's what I can tell you -- that the public reports and the public justifications for these techniques -- which is that we got information from these individuals that were subjected to these techniques -- doesn't answer the core question, which is: Could we have gotten that same information without resorting to these techniques? And it doesn't answer the broader question: Are we safer as a consequence of having used these techniques?

So when I made the decision to release these memos and when I made the decision to bar these practices, this was based on consultation with my entire national security team, and based on my understanding that ultimately I will be judged as Commander-in-Chief on how safe I'm keeping the American people. That's the responsibility I wake up with and it's the responsibility I go to sleep with.

And so I will do whatever is required to keep the American people safe, but I am absolutely convinced that the best way I can do that is to make sure that we are not taking shortcuts that undermine who we are. And there have been no circumstances during the course of this first hundred days in which I have seen information that would make me second-guess the decision that I've made.
www.whitehouse.gov

Thank you. Now we know what Obama said, and it was not "even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence", or anything close to it.

"I'm sure Boyd will just say that the bold parts don't say exactly what Green said"

Probably because the bold parts don't say exactly what Greendad said. Obama did NOT say "these tactics did produce valuable intelligence" as Greendad claimed.

Guess I called that one.

I know that many in the previous administration and their apologists REALLY NEED to justify the torture they illegally ordered, but let's be clear on the facts.

I recall I had at least one science teacher who told us that as well. Incorrectly, it turns out.

I guess I had an advantage being the grandson of an MD who took me into his lab and taught me stuff as long as I can remember.

Obama: "And there have been no circumstances during the course of this first hundred days in which I have seen information that would make me second-guess the decision that I've made."

Here is Greendad's quote: "Even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence just that in his opinion it could have been achieved with other methods more in line with our values."

Here is Obama's quote: "Not because there might not have been information that was yielded by these various detainees who were subjected to this treatment, but because we could have gotten this information in other ways, in ways that were consistent with our values."

I think Greendad basically had the spirit of the quote correct, unless you want to argue that Obama never used the word "valuable," but that's not what Greendad was arguing - he was saying that torture isn't about vengeance.

Gee, he didn't like it. Some honesty.

You libtards refuse to acknowledge that if so many regular citizens are willing to give it a whirl, how bad could it be? It's rough, it's unpleasant, and the bad guys still took it many times before they finally relented. It worked. Lives were saved. It was used on a total of three bad guys and hundreds of our own military. Torture? Only using tortured logic.

Tell me, how many journalists are volunteering to get their fingernails pulled out with pliers in order to "see for themselves" if it's torture or not? I'd think that one of the definitions of torture is that you'd do anything within your power to avoid it, not do it for a stunt.

Danforth are you putting quotes around my comments and saying I was quoting Obama? the "these tactics did produce valuable intelligence were my words paraphrasing what Obama said, notice I did not put quotes around it.

Okay, maybe Obama didn't use the word "valuable" but let me ask you in all honesty, if no VALUABLE intelligence was gained from these tactics, don't you think that would have been explicitly pointed out to the press? He certainly acknowledges intelligence was gathered by the techniques and the fact that he doesn't immediately say it yielded no results shows that it must have been valuable.

As someone who is against torture/harsh interrogations he most certainly would have brought to light that it wasn't valuable.

Thanks Joe. Guys I have to go, the movie is starting... Have a great long weekend everyone.

Later, daddy-o. Enjoy the flick

It's quite clear what Obama said. He stated that we got information through torture, which is not really a revelation. I don't see "useful" anywhere in his statement, though maybe you were thinking of the speech given by Cheney.

Its the new version of The Day Earth Stood Still... so not likely, but thanks anyways LOL

Don't want to disappoint, but IMO, it is not as good as the old version, greendad. Special effects are better, of course, but the story line is weaker. Hope your milage varies.

Greendad-
re: "Okay, maybe Obama didn't use the word "valuable" but let me ask you in all honesty..."

Not "maybe", dude. He didn't use the word "valuable" or "intelligence", which is central to your position, which is crap.

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND!

I think Greendad basically had the spirit of the quote correct, unless you want to argue that Obama never used the word "valuable," but that's not what Greendad was arguing - he was saying that torture isn't about vengeance.

#83 | Posted by JOE at 2009-05-22 09:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

"even Obama said these tactics did produce valuable intelligence"

Whatever, Joe

Whatever is right. Fuck off with your petty bullshit already.

As someone who is against torture....

Yes, this does taint one's perspective I'll admit.

It's not "petty bullshit", Joe. You seem to be pro-torture/anti-Constitution, and we're not.

You seem to be pro-torture/anti-Constitution, and we're not

he says as he "rah-rah-rahs" atop his soapbox, thumping his chest, and self-righteously waving his American flags hoping the CNN crew gets a good shot for their 6:00 PM video byte.

Waterboarding tests tolerance levels. Torture inflicts permanent damages. #18

if tolerance varies among subjects, then how effective can waterboarding be? a hardened terrorist with a high threshold for pain could hold out forever. I, on the other hand, would confess having played a part in OKC, USS Cole, 9/11 and Laverne & Shirley moving to LA before the water ever hit the cloth.

Mancow put an end to Liz and Dick's "waterboarding isn't torture" bullshit.

Mancow put an end to Liz and Dick's "waterboarding isn't torture" bullshit.

I've been on the fence with this waterboarding thing, but after reading some of the comments here, I'm not so sure he did put an end to it.

There is some validity to some of the statements that ponder how someone could sit down and calmly sip coffee discussing this "grueling" procedure immediately after it is over? Would that be possible after a torture session?

Mancow put an end to Liz and Dick's "waterboarding isn't torture" bullshit.

I don't know. I will gladly concede that waterboarding is torture.....but nobody asked me.

However, The fact that Mancow can walk away and talk about it with no physical damage is why others won't define it that way.

However, The fact that Mancow can walk away and talk about it with no physical damage is why others won't define it that way.

#100 | Posted by eberly at 2009-05-22 10:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

He threw his little rubber cow after 6 seconds of being waterboarded by friendlies, you complete idiot.

"others won't define it that way."

But up until Bush & Cheney, humans always have.

America certainly believed it when we prosecuted others. So to those who "won't define it that way", I ask: what date, exactly, did it cease being torture?

There is some validity to some of the statements that ponder how someone could sit down and calmly sip coffee discussing this "grueling" procedure immediately after it is over? Would that be possible after a torture session?

#99 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 10:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

The way it was generally done, using methods adopted from the Chinese Communists in Korea was that you first shackle a prisoner in stress positions naked for a few weeks and keep them awake and then you waterboard them, and throwing the rubber cow after six seconds to make it stop is not an option.

He threw his little rubber cow after 6 seconds of being waterboarded by friendlies, you complete idiot.

We know that. Nobody is arguing that.......you complete idiot.

But he walked away and talked about it didn't he?

He threw his little rubber cow after 6 seconds of being waterboarded by friendlies, you complete idiot.

That doesn't address my retort at all, which probably explains why you are resorting to the losing tactic of calling childish names.

What many of you fail to understand is that the complete SERE routine was reverse-engineered and approved at the highest levels of our gov't. They can be seen at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram. Stress positions, forced nudity, sexual humiliation, sleep deprivation, etc. Everything McCain was subjected to, only they didn't waterboard him, which I suppose make his captors better than what you defend.

waterboarding.org

A Visual History of Water-Based Tortures
Waterboarding is not a new or modern technique; it is one of many water-based tortures with long and well-documented histories of use by religious officials, military officers, and civilians. Many of those uses have resulted in public trials and convictions. These pictures depict a variety of water-based tortures including but not exclusively waterboarding, to place current practices in a historical context.
This chronology is far from complete; if you're aware of other pictures of waterboarding please let us know.

USDNI Mike McConnell says that waterboarding is torture
Today, Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell refused to say whether waterboarding met the legal definition of torture, but he agreed that:

"If I had water draining into my nose, oh God, I just can't imagine how painful! Whether it's torture by anybody else's definition, for me it would be torture" - Washington Post, January 13, 2008

The USDNI also warned that "If it ever is determined to be torture, there will be a huge penalty to be paid for anyone engaging in it."

The way it was generally done, using methods adopted from the Chinese Communists in Korea was that you first shackle a prisoner in stress positions naked for a few weeks and keep them awake and then you waterboard them, and throwing the rubber cow after six seconds to make it stop is not an option.

???

I didn't realize we had moved the goalposts. Are we now tallking about ChiComs and not Americans now? Please let me know when you wish to abrubtly change directions like this, boyd.

Or are you saying the Americans also shackled prisoners in stress positions naked for a few weeks prior to the waterboarding?

However, The fact that Mancow can walk away and talk about it with no physical damage is why others won't define it that way.

Hitchen's recounts his nightmares after his sub 5 second session in the video that's linked. After Mancow finished, he recounted his experience as a kid drowning. The guy that did the waterboarding said (jokingly?) he'll be in psychoanalysis for years.

Mancow didn't walk away. Not immediately anyway. He couldn't even stand. That's from a well rested, well fed, done by friendlies" 6 second episode. Not 85, not 183 times, not with sleep deprivation, stress positions, and not knowing if you were going to live or die.

But hey, whatever justification you need to help you sleep.

But he walked away and talked about it didn't he?

#104 | Posted by eberly at 2009-05-22 10:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

It didn't leave any marks, if that's what you mean, but that's why waterboarding is a preferred torture method from the Spanish Inquisition to the Khmer Rouge to the civilian Bush Administration you now defend.

The moral of this story is that radio djs will undergo any form of abuse to get the chance to throw kids toys?

Maybe we should skip waterboarding. Just stick Mancow in a confined space with Helen Thomas. 3 seconds tops and that rubber cow will be flying like it was shot out of cannon.

Brutal.

LOL

So to those who "won't define it that way", I ask: what date, exactly, did it cease being torture?

Ask them. I don't know. Why the double standard? makes no sense to me. they had to know this would get questioned.

" He couldn't even stand."

Where do you get that from? He immediately sat up, blew his nose and gave an interview. He never said he couldn't stand or attempted to and failed. Are you just making shit up now?

The Khmer Rouge and Toms de Torquemada preferred waterboarding over all other forms of torture?

The Waterboarding Fields. Shudder.

You are so silly.

LOL

Another reason I am skeptical:

Once very two years I am required to go to a two day water survival course as a requisite to work offshore. Part of that training involves emergency helicopter egress.

During that procedure we are seated in a helicopter fuselage that is then lowered into a swimming pool (the new one in Lafayette actually has a waver maker and water blower to simulate storms) and the fuselage is turned upside down. We then have to release our seat belts, push open the window and swim out of it.

During the submersion we HAVE to keep one hand on the seat belt and one on the window so as to not lose orientation. When we are turned upside down water inevtitably gets up our noses. We are in this position for longer than 5 seconds. The only difference I see between that and waterboarding is that I don't have a rag on my face.

Yes, it is unpleasant, and I guess I could call it torture, but if the Coast Guard forces civilians of all ages and both genders to do it to get their water survival card, can it be that bad?

Or are you saying the Americans also shackled prisoners in stress positions naked for a few weeks prior to the waterboarding?

#108 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 10:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes. Why do you think Obama decided not to release the photos from Bagram, Guantanamo, Abu Graib? Have you not read anything that conflicts with your narrow view of prisoners kept at the Hilton and taken out for a walk and a six-second waterboarding until they throw their cow?

Indeed, why were you against the release of these photos when none of them are reported to have images of waterboarding?

www.washingtonpost.com

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

www.washingtonpost.com

Waterboarding Historically Controversial
In 1947, the U.S. Called It a War Crime; in 1968, It Reportedly Caused an Investigation



Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

But hey, whatever justification you need to help you sleep

I don't need to justify anything to help me sleep, yav. I'm simply trying to debate this and it is difficult when the above is your best rebuttal.

Some of you are too intelligent to be so accidentally stupid.

Later.

But hey, whatever justification you need to help you sleep.

the civilian Bush Administration you now defend.

wow, these 2 guys will just never get it. they can't tell the difference between shilling for GWB and explaining why people might think it isn't torture.

I suppose it is a waste of time to point AGAIN to these donkey dicks that I have always maintained waterboarding to be torture and for the reasons just posted by THEM.

yeah....waste of time.

PS on the emergency helicopter egress: We have to perform this routine 7 times. They send dozens of people a day through this course. They all get water up their nose while hanging upside down strapped into a helicopter seat.

Again, other than the rag and we get it done 7 times, what is the difference what we are doing and what they did to Mancow?

Where do you get that from? He immediately sat up, blew his nose and gave an interview. He never said he couldn't stand or attempted to and failed. Are you just making shit up now?

I watched the full video. Something you apparently haven't done.

Why do you think Obama decided not to release the photos from Bagram, Guantanamo, Abu Graib

Do you have a link to support this connection you allege? I hate to ask, but when you get emotional on a subject (as you are now) you tend to invent stuff, boyd.

So Mancow Muller surived the dreaded Waterboarding tourture.

Big fucking dealObama mama already told the terrorists, that he would treat them like spa clients at the fucking Ritz.

I'm sure he will find a way to make them talk. I hear toe tickleing is the next phase of THE Monkey's way of getting information first hand.

God help us

Indeed, why were you against the release of these photos ...

???

I was?

See what I mean about you making up stuff when you get emotional boyd? LOL

You do it all the time. Thanks for proving my allegation

Later.

And boyd pulls his predictible disappearing act when cornered. LOL

I've watched the entire video. Tell me the time at which he indicates he cannot stand.

"Some of you are too intelligent to be so accidentally stupid."

Good point Boyd. Your stupidity, on the other hand, well, that's just the way you are.

I was hoping someone would tell me the difference between my emergency helicopter egress training and waterboarding

My feet are above my head. I am restrained. Water gets fully in my nose.

Other than the rag, it sounds exactly like waterboarding.

Honest question -- what is the difference?

The guy that did the waterboarding said (jokingly?) he'll be in psychoanalysis for years.

Do you think he will be in therapy?

I was?


See what I mean about you making up stuff when you get emotional boyd? LOL


It's the same bullshit he pulls everytime.

1. shit pants
2. accuse other of positions they don't have
3. run like a pussy.


I was hoping someone would tell me the difference between my emergency helicopter egress training and waterboarding


My feet are above my head. I am restrained. Water gets fully in my nose.


Other than the rag, it sounds exactly like waterboarding.


Honest question -- what is the difference?

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:06 PM | Reply

Easy. Your survival training is so that You can survive a helicopter crash in the water. Waterboarding is torturing the mind and body for a specific goal.

1. shit pants
2. accuse other of positions they don't have
3. run like a pussy.

You've got boyd's routing down to a 'T', eb. I'm constantly calling him on #2, assigning positions. I can't figure out why he sticks to this idiotic and easily disproven tactic.

And why is everyone suddenly silent when I ask about my required training vs waterboarding?

Easy. Your survival training is so that You can survive a helicopter crash in the water. Waterboarding is torturing the mind and body for a specific goal.

Larry, I understand the apparent purposes of both procedures. My question is: What is different in the procedures themselves (not the difference in why they are done)

I can't figure out why he sticks to this idiotic and easily disproven tactic.

Because he is so emotional when he is doing it. He can't see how obvious and predictable it is.

Yes, it is quiet. I know it's a late Friday night but it's WATERBOARDING. A top 5 hit with liberals.

Larry, I understand the apparent purposes of both procedures. My question is: What is different in the procedures themselves (not the difference in why they are done)

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:14 PM | Reply

Your survival training is done voluntarily. It's not forced upon You without Your consent. Waterboarding is not done voluntarily and therefore is torture.

Larry

One last thing to bare in mind.

Obama will forbid waterboarding and other forms of intense interrogation. He ran on those promises, the code pink cindy sheehan moveon.org freaks that propelled BHO to power aren't going to let him walk away from those promises.

So what happens if the US gets hit again? Did he do everything he could do to keep America safe?

Dilemma.

Obama has to make waterboarding against the law so he is legally prevented from using it as an option to cover his political ass if and when the helen thomas hits the fan.

Obama has no option, he has to be able to go on national television after an attack and say he did everything he could do legally to keep America safe.

And then he'll say he's sorry it didn't work out.

Tell me the time at which he indicates he cannot stand.

Eberly said:

However, The fact that Mancow can walk away and talk about it with no physical damage is why others won't define it that way.

I said:

Mancow didn't walk away. Not immediately anyway. He couldn't even stand. That's from a well rested, well fed, done by friendlies" 6 second episode. Not 85, not 183 times, not with sleep deprivation, stress positions, and not knowing if you were going to live or die.

He doesn't, he just sits for 4 minutes. He's shaking and he's pale. You want to argue over that, knock yourself out.

Hey wait? Didn't you just say:

Whatever is right. Fuck off with your petty bullshit already.

Hm. Now you want to split hairs?

Now if you want a fuller video, much better than the one in this article watch this and maybe you'll understand what I was saying a bit better:

www.wikio.com

Not that watching it will mean a thing.

Your survival training is done voluntarily. It's not forced upon You without Your consent. Waterboarding is not done voluntarily and therefore is torture.

So using your logic, if I took some vice grips and pulled out my fingernails voluntarily, it would not be unpleasant.

Sorry, Larry. You fail.

Got a better answer?

Waterboarding is not done voluntarily and therefore is torture.

Larry, a radio host just "volunteered for it".

WTF are you talking about.

He doesn't, he just sits for 4 minutes. He's shaking and he's pale.

Is it possible he was grandstanding, yav? I've been gogling the guy. He's a shock jock. Admittedly he doesn't seem to pick on a single party, but he is definitely a sensationalist. YOu can't argue that.

As I said, I get "waterboarded" 7 times one every two years. I am in that position for at least 5 or 6 seconds each time. Neither I nor the people I've taken this class with "just sit" for four minutes shaking.

Given Mancow's history, I am skeptical that he isn't going the senstational route.

Holder can't even get it straight--

www.drudge.com


The twisted logic used got Holder all discombobulated.

It's the intent.

And I will bet dollars to donuts that Obama would use waterboarding for the ticking time bomb scenario.

Because if American lives are in the balance and they die because he didn't do it--he would be toast.

The overwhelming number of Americans who say it is acceptable to use enhanced interrogation techniques is proof enough.

Stop placating to EU and the hard left--who would let people die--even their own family members--just so they can spout off how good they feel that they didn't approve EIT's.

He doesn't, he just sits for 4 minutes. He's shaking and he's pale. You want to argue over that, knock yourself out.


He's giving an interview within 20 seconds after he sits up.

But I don't think a 6 second waterboarding of a radio host is a very good example to use.

Here are a couple of the places I've been 'waterboarded'.

www.geocities.com

www.survival-systems.com

google [emergency helicopter egress training] if you want to verify the procedure I described. Then get back to me and tell me how it is different that 6 seconds of waterboarding other than the rag?

Larry, a radio host just "volunteered for it".


WTF are you talking about.

Posted by eberly at 2009-05-22 11:23 PM | Reply


Can You be anymore intellectually obtuse??

Larry--ESPN2 has the last game of 3 with Stanford and Arizona on right now (CA time).

So using your logic, if I took some vice grips and pulled out my fingernails voluntarily, it would not be unpleasant.

Sorry, Larry. You fail.

Got a better answer?

#139 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

re: "Got a better answer?"

Sure. Larry takes you prisoner and then tortures you without your consent for as long as he likes.

And I will bet dollars to donuts that Obama would use waterboarding for the ticking time bomb scenario.


Because if American lives are in the balance and they die because he didn't do it--he would be toast.


The overwhelming number of Americans who say it is acceptable to use enhanced interrogation techniques is proof enough.


Stop placating to EU and the hard left--who would let people die--even their own family members--just so they can spout off how good they feel that they didn't approve EIT's.

Posted by MURPHY at 2009-05-22 11:30 PM | Reply

You and that stupid assed Ticking Time Bomb Bullshit. You have watched way too much 24 Murphy. I swear. You support torture yet You want to justify it somehow. THAT is unbelievable especially from a Woman like Yourself. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhh

Larry

Can You be anymore intellectually obtuse??

I didn't post this thread Larry. If you want to use this as an example of "waterboarding is torture" then why did you say that?

Jesus.


Larry--ESPN2 has the last game of 3 with Stanford and Arizona on right now (CA time).

#146 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-05-22 11:32 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Muahhhhs sweetie THANKS.

Sure. Larry takes you prisoner and then tortures you without your consent for as long as he likes.


#147 | Posted by BetelG at 2009-05-22 11:33 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Yeah let Me come to texas kidnap Goatman and let Me waterboard Him. I bet He will change His tune right quick. We could make a weekend of it.

Larry

It's been a real awakening. I had no idea my fellow citizens would defend even the torture of prisoners if they believe it "keeps them safe".

I'm going to go burn the Constitution, throw up, and go to bed now.

Sieg Heil!

I was hoping someone would tell me the difference between my emergency helicopter egress training and waterboarding

My feet are above my head. I am restrained. Water gets fully in my nose.

Other than the rag, it sounds exactly like waterboarding

Honest question -- what is the difference?

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:06 PM


The difference is simple. You know when your emergency helicopter egress training will end -- after the 7th time. A person being waterboarded doesn't know if it will end for him after the 7th time or the 107th time.

Psychology plays an important part in adding to the fear factor and mental distress when a person has idea when the end to his being waterboarded might be over. That's how the game is played. You want to create as much fear as possible.

That said, I have no problem with waterboarding a real enemy combatant IF it is honestly felt by those doing the waterboarding procedure that person had information which, if given, would help save the lives of either members of our military or U.S. civilians. No one said war was nice.

Can You be anymore intellectually obtuse??

#145 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-05-22 11:31 PM

than you? Impossible! LOL

You said one was voluntary, one not -- that's the difference. Eb pointed out Mancow was voluntary and you continue to blindly moan your mantra while not daring to take flick your eyes away from straight ahead lest you accidentally get a glimpse of the truth.

You're a trip, Larry.

and go to bed now.


Sieg Heil!

you do that boyd.

From Cheney's speech

"For all that we've lost in this conflict, the United States has never lost its moral bearings. And when the moral reckoning turns to the men known as high-value terrorists, I can assure you they were neither innocent nor victims. As for those who asked them questions and got answers: they did the right thing, they made our country safer, and a lot of Americans are alive today because of them."


www.weeklystandard.com


This is so true.

The assholes we did EIT's on---one of which was the planner of 9/11--KSM--we had no idea what he knew.

He had the nerve to ask for his lawyer and when he would get to NY.

Surprise surprise...drip drip drip...

And per Cheney--we got a boatload of information that saved lives.

Let Obama have the biggest attack on his watch and see how he turns the water on.

And I am not hoping for any attack.

It's just when you are in the shoes of the POTUS and 9/11 occurred--you make damn sure it doesn't happen again.

Sure. Larry takes you prisoner and then tortures you without your consent for as long as he likes

We were talking about the difference between my emergency egress training and Mancow's waterboarding. Care to answer, boyd?

That said, I have no problem with waterboarding a real enemy combatant IF it is honestly felt by those doing the waterboarding procedure that person had information which, if given, would help save the lives of either members of our military or U.S. civilians. No one said war was nice.

Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-22 11:38 PM | Reply

You support torture You support terrorism. Sighhhhhhhhhh Christine whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy??

Larry

Larry,

If your parents where captured by terrorists and their stomachs were pulled through their rectums with fish hooks, would you want to harshly question the terrorists that performed those acts?

And if so, would you use HARSH interrogation techniques if you felt they were involved with other terrorist activities?

Yeah let Me come to texas kidnap Goatman and let Me waterboard Him


If Mancow was waterboarded, then so was I, Larry. I estimate 21 times AAMOF.

Besides, I thought you were against waterboarding? Or is it you only approve of waterboarding if it is done to a fellow American, but not OK if it is done to a terrorist? That seems to be your position.

I'm going to go burn the Constitution, throw up, and go to bed now.

Again you cower away with your tail between your legs rather than answer the simple question I asked you about my survival training vs waterboarding.

Actually, boyd, you answered.

There is no difference. You are just too cowardly to admit it. LOL

If your parents where captured by terrorists and their stomachs were pulled through their rectums with fish hooks, would you want to harshly question the terrorists that performed those acts?


And if so, would you use HARSH interrogation techniques if you felt they were involved with other terrorist activities?

Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-05-22 11:43 PM | Reply


No I would want them prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law not to include the Death Penalty. That is what Our CVountry was founded upon. That is what I was raised to believe in. Stir

Larry

The difference is simple. You know when your emergency helicopter egress training will end

Mancow knew when his was going to end, yet he described it as unbearable torture. What's the difference between my experience and Mancow's, except he had a 'safety word' and I didn't? I HAD to go through with it, unlike him.

Besides, I thought you were against waterboarding? Or is it you only approve of waterboarding if it is done to a fellow American, but not OK if it is done to a terrorist? That seems to be your position.

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:43 PM | Reply

I am TOTALLY against ALL torture including ones performed on Our Countryfolk. You dig??

Larry

It's no surprise that these are third world techniques refined by the Europeans. The worse torture may well have been invented in the Slavic regions. Hands and feet to 4 poles with a belly bar. Slavered with a salt and flour mix they bring in a herd of goats. At first it tickles but then the goats don't stop licking when the batter is gone so their tongues wear away the skin.

That's a death sentence and a lesson to anyone who opposes confinement and slavery.

"zine zee papers old man"

And you will sign.

Personally I'd sign anything well written, and I can be highly critical about what I put my name to.

"I'm sorry, but no one would believe that I would ever use so many helper verbs. They'd know it was a fake. I suggest a rewrite using more action verbs."

"Of course I'll do the rewrite. Now...what are we trying to accomplish here?"

It's like learning to file appeals before going to prison so everyone will want to be your friend and not your buddy.

If you want intel you pick a guy's brain. Throw him enough curves, play some games, verify. If you want him to confess to something then go "enhanced" and he'll say what you wish.

Two can play the game even if you're the one getting whipped. Machiavelli turned that corner and became famous in recent times for tutoring Cheney, et al., Kissinger leading the way.

Using these methods to gin up a connection for a war you can't resist is immoral. The whole affair must be declassified and I don't care if the information damages "national security" and I wrote that in small letters because our security begins at Home.

We are not more safe with a war going on south of border and creeping into the southwestern states. We were not made more safe because of Charlie Wilson's War. We should have allowed the Ruskies to to fight the Talibs unaided. They certainly wouldn't allow Pakistan to bandy about their nukes.

We are not more safe with our armed forces stretched to exhaustion. No matter the hoorahs, our men are tired of fighting an enemy half way around the world.

We can kick ass and draw some boundaries. We could buy up all the opium and incinerate it for less than our drug enforcement efforts. Pay market value. Isn't that what capitalism is all about?

Unfortunately the ObamaMamas decided to save the Empire. Auditing the Federal Reserve fulfills their promise of Transparency, and yet the topic is torture. Me thinks some Mavens have their Tit in the Wringer, and ObamaMama would never allow a public display of that action.

As for this idiot...and please anyone who calls himself a "man - cow" is already in small pond...they should have slapped his ass back down and said "That's One!"

He's a pussy. His mouth looks like a pussy. A walking gloryhole. He should jump off a bridge.

Gman

It is the INTENT or the purpose of the EIT--waterboarding. Per Holder.

For SERE--it is ok--because it is for training.

But when the congress guys pointed out to Holder that the INTENT of the waterboarding of KSM was to get information (not physical pain)--Holder choked.

The CIA developed the technique so it would not physically harm the terrorist.

Scare them shitless yes--but we don't have time with the 3 people waterboarded for them to just answer questions following "Pretty Please".

"As I said, I get "waterboarded" 7 times one every two years. I am in that position for at least 5 or 6 seconds each time. Neither I nor the people I've taken this class with "just sit" for four minutes shaking.

Given Mancow's history, I am skeptical that he isn't going the senstational route.
#141 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:26 PM"

I think I understand your point, goatman, but you're making a sweeping generalization: 'As I said, I get "waterboarded" '. The assumption is that your training/experience is equivalent to waterboarding. The lack of experience with this matter by others (and you, for that matter) also probably explains why there are few (any?) comments pro/con regarding the validity of your equivalence statement.

Hmmmm, maybe it would be MORE equivalent if your training was being conducted by the Taliban after you were kidnapped while in the Middle East on an oil rig contract job. Yeah, that's a fantasy situation, but then so is your "equivalence".

Laters theres some sexy ladies swinging bats around bbiab

Charlie Wilson's War--very good movie.

The Russians were fighting with the mujahadeen--the Taliban came in afterwards--right?

The lack of experience with this matter by others (and you, for that matter)

???

I related my experience and compared it to mancows. (I swear, I can't type that man's name without laughing) He has his feet elevated over his head. I have my feet elevated over my head. (in fact, I am turned fully upside down while underwater) He is restrained. I am restrained. He has water poured on his face. I am fully submerged. He did it voluntarily. I did it voluntarily (sort of -- I lose my job if I don't do it)

How is his ordeal worse than mine? Why is he 'shaking for minutes' afterwards? I'm not trying to pick a fight -- I honestly want to know.

Hmmmm, maybe it would be MORE equivalent if your training was being conducted by the Taliban after you were kidnapped while in the Middle East on an oil rig contract job. Yeah, that's a fantasy situation, but then so is your "equivalence".

#167 | Posted by TrueBlue


Excuse me but if an American is caught over there by the Taliban--you get beheaded.

Then they waterboard you.

The point of the exercise is that NO ONE--even those who receive training--are not supposed to like this technique.

We want them to only last 7 seconds.

Hitchens did it twice--the second time he lasted 19 seconds?

That is the point.

----

We are not using this technique like the Japanese.

We don't stuff raw rice pilaf down the throat--then force water down their throat--then beat the shit out of their stomachs until they die.

Here is a link to the MSTC course in Lafayette. This is the exact place I took mine. It describes the procedure and even has a primitive .GIF video of the unit going underwater and turning upside down.

As I said, I did it in that exact machine a year ago last March

mstc.louisiana.edu

Apologies, I thought it was obvious that the lack of experience was with waterboarding. If you read the article carefully, you'll note that the 'emergency flag' was thrown 'instantly'. However, Mancow Muller 'lasted 6-7 seconds'. It would seem (to me) that it was during those 6-7 seconds, when Mr. Muller likely had "some realization" that the 'emergency flag' was not working (or at least not quickly enough to suit him), that the torture began. The same would also be true for someone being waterboarded, but not for someone in helicopter egress training.

(PS -- all talk of torture aside, I actually like the course and thought the helicopter 'ride' was kinda fun as you may agree with when you see the video)

"Excuse me but if an American is caught over there by the Taliban--you get beheaded.

Then they waterboard you.
#171 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-05-22 11:55 PM"

Cute.

The point is that it is a different experience if a hostile individual performs the waterboarding. It's the unknown which creates the torture.

Sorry to waste everyone else's time explaining that to you, MURPHY.

"(PS -- all talk of torture aside, I actually like the course and thought the helicopter 'ride' was kinda fun as you may agree with when you see the video)
#175 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 12:05 AM"

I can appreciate that it is rather like a wild 'water ride' (well..., in some ways...).

Question: do you know of anyone dying (e.g., heart attack or even drowning, etc.) from this training?

Hey Murphy whatever happened to ASU??

Trueblue -- I will concede that you (et alia who made this point) may have a valid argument in the psychological aspect since the physical aspect of mancow's *snicker again* situation and mine are virtually identical -- even to the timing.

However, I still have a hard time labeling a few seconds of psychological terror as torture and removing it from the bag or interrogation techniques the CIA uses.

Had I not had my own experiences with the physical side of the procedure, I may feel differently. But I can say first hand that the physical part of it is not that bad.

Question: do you know of anyone dying (e.g., heart attack or even drowning, etc.) from this training?

No. If you notice in the vid, there is a diver in the foreground. There is also one on the other side that you can't see. The back of the fuselage is wide open (but we can't use it for an escape, unless drowning is imminent, of course). The seat belt restraints have a special pin in the back that is unreachable by the student, but reachable by the divers.

If the diver senses any trouble at all, they pull that pin, releasing the restraint and immediately pull the student to the surface.

And yes, I have seen the divers have to do that. Still the student has to perform the required 7 dives to get his water survival card.

Land of the Free. Home of the Brave.

PS -- all talk of torture aside, I actually like the course and thought the helicopter 'ride' was kinda fun as you may agree with when you see the video)

Cool video.

RE: #179 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 12:14 AM

It's possible, maybe even LIKELY, that some of Mr. Muller's torture is due to his re-living a childhood event since I think he mentioned that it was similar to his childhood near-drowning experience.

If so, the experience of waterboarding might be vastly different for different individuals. This might expand into the concept that torture has more to do with what happens to your mind rather than what happens to your senses.

...That said, I have no problem with waterboarding a real enemy combatant IF it is honestly felt by those doing the waterboarding procedure that person had information which, if given, would help save the lives of either members of our military or U.S. civilians. No one said war was nice.

Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-22 11:38 PM


You support torture You support terrorism. Sighhhhhhhhhh Christine whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy??

Larry


Why? I highlighted "why" in bold for you, Larry. Read it again.


This might expand into the concept that torture has more to do with what happens to your mind rather than what happens to your senses.

This may be true, too. I was always told that I was a 'water baby'. Both my parents would keep a close eye on me at the water because of my lack of fear of it -- even at the beach.

To this day, I am a very good swimmer and do not fear the ocean or any body of water at all. I loved in the Navy when we would have a swim call in the middle of the ocean. Some people wouldn't jump off the ship because "The water is 2 miles deep!" yet they would jump in the deep end of a pool. Go figure.

In that training course we had to stay afloat for 10 minutes by any means possible as one of the exercises. That meant using the clothing inflation methods they taught us, treading water, whatever. I was the only one who simply relaxed and floated motionlessly.

The water and I have a bond. *grin*

"Waiter! I ordered rice pilaf with my lemon glazed chicken! Not wild rice with butter!"

--Torture at Luxurious Club Gitmo

There is some validity to some of the statements that ponder how someone could sit down and calmly sip coffee discussing this "grueling" procedure immediately after it is over? Would that be possible after a torture session?

#99 | Posted by goatman

Waterboarding of detainees consisted of at least 90 seconds of continuous water (with the wet cloth held tight by people on opposite sides of the head) and were repeatedly done over 4 hours per session, which were themselves repeated.

This guy lasted 6 or 7 seconds. I doubt those waterboarded in detainee sessions felt like coffee or much of anything else.

The difference is simple. You know when your emergency helicopter egress training will end

- CalifChris

Mancow knew when his was going to end, yet he described it as unbearable torture. What's the difference between my experience and Mancow's, except he had a 'safety word' and I didn't? I HAD to go through with it, unlike him.

#163 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:47 PM


I watched the video twice. The difference between your experience and Mancow's is that your experience is much worse.

You are entirely submerged underwater while Mancow was just lying on a table in a room.

You are spun around and upside down while in semi-darkness underwater while Mancow merely had a scarf tied over his eyes and lay still. Mancow even had some guy to hold his nose closed for him. They had barely started to pour the water on his face when he jumps up sceaming "uncle." What a pansy. In fact Mancow started whinning before he had even laid down on the table.

There's no comparison between the underwater training you are required to go through and Mancow's phony act in the studio.

For Mancow to hype his experience as "unbearable torture" is a joke. He played the role for the media. Use (or non-use) of torture" is a hot topic right now.

Honestly, after seeing the video it even lessens the case against not using the waterboarding technique. Little kids playing at the local swimming pool ingest more water in their nostrils than Mancow did in this experiment.

Just my opinion based on what I saw from your underwater training video and Mancow's waterboarding video.

the Taliban came in afterwards--right?

The Talibs are a separate tribe Murph. Mostly tribes in that region, and very little national unity. It's basically who has the power to hold ground.

The Russians had a loyalty oath and they intended you keep it or they'd kill you & your whole tribe if they had to, so at the end of the war there was open territory just like after the 30 years war in what is now Germany. It means In the Middle.

So too is Afghanistan.

I related my experience and compared it to mancows. (I swear, I can't type that man's name without laughing) He has his feet elevated over his head. I have my feet elevated over my head. (in fact, I am turned fully upside down while underwater) He is restrained. I am restrained. He has water poured on his face. I am fully submerged. He did it voluntarily. I did it voluntarily (sort of -- I lose my job if I don't do it)
How is his ordeal worse than mine? Why is he 'shaking for minutes' afterwards? I'm not trying to pick a fight -- I honestly want to know.
#170 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:54 PM

"Why is strawberry seedier than watermelon?"

Gag reflex is a powerful response to dislodge foreign materials from the esophagus before they enter the bronchi and the lungs. You might not realize it but the ganglia in your nostrils also trigger an even more powerful gag reflex. The feeling is strangely equated with a burning sensation. This is why Mancow was seriously salivating, tearing and otherwise blowing stuff out from his nose and throat - these particular reflexes are difficult to control, let alone ignore or endure while distressed.

Imagine yourself drugged and having to attempt to breathe water. That's the "safest" way I suppose it might be tried - irrational drug-induced anti-involuntary fluid aspiration. Water in the lungs hurts and drugs could help ignore that "feeling".

So, in or out from your scuba gear, submerged wholly or partially, upside-down or right-side round is an entirely different experience from someone with no control over their environment interactions whatsoever having water basically poured into their lungs.

Mancow is a ridiculously memorable name. How unfortunate.

I'm dangerously close to buying the 5D Mark II, oz. But I already know if I do, it will soon be followed by another L series lens. I'm watching the 24-70mm f2.8. After a few months of using the 70-200mm, I'm hooked on the L series.

It's a fucking snowball, man.

"Why is strawberry seedier than watermelon?"

So in summary:
Pouring water down a terrorists nose responsible for 3k+ American deaths=bad.

Ripping baby out of womans womb because "mom" doesn't want to miss her tv shows=good.

But, lets not lose our moral compass here in America!

"I watched the video twice. The difference between your experience and Mancow's is that your experience is much worse.
#188 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-23 01:24 AM"

Possibly. If what you say is true, why do Navy Seals even bother with 'waterboard training' during SERE since those individuals likely already have had helicopter egress training?

We should not water board. We should cut their spinal cord and then question them at our leisure and every time obama complained cut off one of their limbs.

"So in summary:
Pouring water down a terrorists nose responsible for 3k+ American deaths=bad.

Ripping baby out of womans womb because "mom" doesn't want to miss her tv shows=good.

But, lets not lose our moral compass here in America!
#193 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2009-05-23 08:06 AM"


So in summary:

I, ELCIDCE90, have nothing to add to this discussion so I'll deflect to what I think folks "should" be discussing by making exaggerated/simplistic generalizations and hope no one exposes it as a Strawman argument.

I remember my grandmother always kept her thermostat set at 84 degrees. It was absolutely miserable...terribly uncomfortable for all of us. We did not like the experience when visiting grandma. This Torture kept us from visiting her too often.

But only a Libtard, spiteful of a previous administration, would define such a thing as torture. Hey, but whatever is politically expedient, let's put on a manufactured display of moral outrage to make political hay!

Save America, Waterboard a pussy Libtard!

This Torture kept us from visiting her too often.

But only a Libtard, spiteful of a previous administration, would define such a thing as torture.

#197 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2009-05-23 08:53 AM | Reply | Flag: Moron

"Now that is manning up for the truth!" #7 | Posted by Manypaths

I heard that about waterboarding. Those waterboarded are glad to tell the truth.


Watch Christopher Hitchens being waterboarded.

#3 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2009-05-22 05:04 PM | Reply | Flag

I bet if they used scotch instead of water, Hitchens would've lasted a lot longer.

Goatman,

Are you drowned during your training experience? I don't mean you get submerged and wet - I mean your brain goes into complete panic and you are drowning? I'm guessing not based on:

(PS -- all talk of torture aside, I actually like the course and thought the helicopter 'ride' was kinda fun as you may agree with when you see the video)

I watched your animated gif. Read the outline. I'm not seeing the equivalence. I haven't had the experience, though. I'll have to take your word that it's fun. Something I've never heard once by anyone that was waterboarded.

I find it odd you'd equate your training experience with a known procedure that's history is quite clear, whose classification has always been considered torture.

What do these people know in comparison to you?

Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.)
Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02

Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.)
Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000

Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.)
Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93

Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.)
Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88

"Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal."

static.crooksandliars.com

Or Lieutenant Commander Andrew Williams (JAG):

www.military.com

This is a settled issue. There is no debate. There is only spinning and justification as people attempt to evade prosecution and sway public opinion.

What a sorry state we're in that justification for torture has become critical for one side of the political spectrum.

I heard that about waterboarding. Those waterboarded are glad to tell the truth.

They're glad to tell you anything, even things they don't know if it will stop the waterboarding. They'll even tell you there's a link between Saddam and Al-Qaida.

The methods succeeded in breaking him, and the stories he told of al-Qaeda terrorism plots sent CIA officers around the globe chasing leads.

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

www.washingtonpost.com

We had the information above confirmed, under oath.

glad to see he realizes this is torture. all republicans should be subject to an hour of this.

What a sorry state we're in that justification for torture has become critical for one side of the political spectrum.

Not as sorry as believing only one side of the political spectrum is to blame. Or accepting their sudden memory loss once they obtained the Majority.

Not as sorry as believing only one side of the political spectrum is to blame. Or accepting their sudden memory loss once they obtained the Majority.

One side's leadership is to blame for conceiving, developing, implementing and executing these policies. One side's leadership fed justification to their appointed "legal" team to justify their acts - after they had already started. One side called anyone that disagreed un-American (which Lyn Cheney just called Obama) and worse. One side had complete power, executed a war of choice, and tortured to get confirmation that there was an Iraq-Al Qaida link to justify their "sexed up" case for the war.

One side is defending all this today.

The other side, weak and pathetic as they were during that period, at least is finding its way back.

As I have said before, I don't care which political side someone's on when it comes to this subject, let the chips fall where they will. I'm for a full investigation.

Torture is never justified. It's not about getting the truth, or stopping some 'ticking time-bomb.' It is the domain of authoritarians and dictators that want confirmation of what they want, not truth.

IMHO, of course.

"One side's leadership is to blame for conceiving, developing, implementing and executing these policies."

Without one objection from party leaders on the other side. Even going as far as asking if the so called techniques were harsh enough.

"One side's leadership fed justification to their appointed "legal" team to justify their acts - after they had already started."

Once again without any objection by the other side. Even if it is true they were already being used, the majority of dems sat silent after being informed.

"One side had complete power, executed a war of choice, and tortured to get confirmation that there was an Iraq-Al Qaida link to justify their "sexed up" case for the war."

That same side had the support of dems in both Houses. Funny how dems use that excuse for their yes vote. As though it was the deal breaker and had they known...?

Without one objection from party leaders on the other side. Even going as far as asking if the so called techniques were harsh enough.

Objections have been noted. Previously classified. Harmon's letter from 2003 being the latest. The "harsh enough" statement has not been verified, and was made by the same person alleging other statements that have not been supported. Contrary to the letters protesting EIT, the former is "he said/she said."

That same side had the support of dems in both Houses. Funny how dems use that excuse for their yes vote. As though it was the deal breaker and had they known...?

I will not waste my time again on this. I will not quote the ACTUAL statements made by Clinton et. al. that have been misrepresented, misused by the Right. There is one man that said "as a last resort" as a promise and didn't follow through. There is one man that decided to go to war, a war of choice. The "War President" and "The Decider."

...I'm watching the 24-70mm f2.8. ...

That's a fine lens Goatman. I've used for several years now, however, if I could go back and do it over, I'd opt for either the 35 f/1.4 or the 50 f/1.2 prime lenses, and zoom with my feet. I find that f/2.8 just isn't fast enough in a lot of indoor lighting situations without using a flash.

Coupled with the very good high ISO performance of the 5DII and the extra two stops of speed gained from the prime lenses mentioned above, you can get very usable hand-held shutter speeds by the light of a single candle, and more than likely have better image quality than the zoom.

BTW, make no mistake about it, that 24-70 f/2.8 is damn heavy lens; it's built like a tank, though.

I know you didn't ask me for it, but that's my 2 cents anyway.

Honestly, after seeing the video it even lessens the case against not using the waterboarding technique. Little kids playing at the local swimming pool ingest more water in their nostrils than Mancow did in this experiment.

#188 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-23 01:24 AM | Reply | Flag


Maybe you should try it for 14 seconds and see if it still compares to little kids at a swimming pool.

I guess first hand experience from another non believer isn't enough for you. Maybe you need a more personal experience to make an honest evaluation. Because ,it didn't "look like" torture, didn't seem to get the point across to you. I doubt you would compare it to kids at the pool.

Obama has NEVER said any useful information came from waterboarding.

The only thing to come from waterboarding is to associate America with other nations that torture their prisoners.

I just don't find myself caring if these 3 were tortured. I don't want it used extensively, I don't want it used on Americans, I don't really want it to be legal, but no, I also don't care that someone responsible for the death of 3,000+ Americans was waterboarded and I never will.

#23 | Posted by GreenDad
--------------
My sentiments exactly GreenDad! At the same time, I probably wouldn't care if they were given some time to be intimately familiar with the Greater Dallas/Ft Worth Phone book either. I mean it's not like those three guys are runner ups for Citizen Of The Year or anything.

Lonnie

Obama has NEVER said any useful information came from waterboarding.

The only thing to come from waterboarding is to associate America with other nations that torture their prisoners.

#210 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob
-----------------
and like a good kool-aid drinking shill for the party, you believe anything he says right?

Lonnie

Should I believe Cheney and Limbastard?

and like a good kool-aid drinking shill for the party, you believe anything he says right?

Bob's comment is in reference to a claim that said otherwise. You shot and missed.

"I just don't find myself caring if these 3 were tortured. I don't want it used extensively, I don't want it used on Americans, I don't really want it to be legal, but no, I also don't care that someone responsible for the death of 3,000+ Americans was waterboarded and I never will."

Duh! No one cares about these guys. It is the legal principle. For some odd reason many Americans think it should be convenient to take a moral position and keep to it. If it were easy to be principled our enemies would be and we would not be better than them. They aren't but if we follow President Obama's lead we can still be the principled nation we only pretended to be under Bush and Cheney.


Never really thought it wasn't torture. Its more that the 3 people it was used on extensively maybe deserved it a little. No other member of Al Qaeda played a bigger role in the planning of the September 11 attacks than Khalid Sheik Mohammed. It was his idea, his plan. Think of all the things that one event lead too in this country.


I just don't find myself caring if these 3 were tortured. I don't want it used extensively, I don't want it used on Americans, I don't really want it to be legal, but no, I also don't care that someone responsible for the death of 3,000+ Americans was waterboarded and I never will.

#23 | Posted by GreenDad


still don't get it, Greendad?:>)

whatreallyhappened.com

By the looks of the 3 that got waterboarded, asking them to shower once a day is probably considered by most at GITMO as torture.

Lonnie

I still haven't gotten an answer on the question I asked several days ago.

If we stop waterboarding the scumbags, most of ya'll say that we're showing our moral compass but don't we lose that when we send these scumbags over to Egypt so they can use far worse techniques than waterboarding to gain information we want? Hey we still have a Rendition policy. Is there really a difference?

Lonnie

I take it you can't read very well Lonnie...

whatreallyhappened.com

I take it that your an idiot trying to keep from answering the difference between rendition and waterboarding!

I read very well but I ain't going to read a book to get a simple opinionated answer. Also, I'm not going to read some idiots rantings on how 9/11 was a fucking inside job. I define that as nutjob city and after I've spent 3 hours reading through the shit, I can't get those 3 hours back.

Lonnie

Watch Christopher Hitchens being waterboarded.
#3 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2009-05-22 05:04 PM | Reply | Flag

I bet if they used scotch instead of water, Hitchens would've lasted a lot longer.
#200 | Posted by anton at 2009-05-23 09:45 AM

AHAHAHA!! FF!!

You don't want to know where they sprayed the soda.

I remember my grandmother always kept her thermostat set at 84 degrees. It was absolutely miserable...terribly uncomfortable for all of us. We did not like the experience when visiting grandma. This Torture kept us from visiting her too often.
But only a Libtard, spiteful of a previous administration, would define such a thing as torture. Hey, but whatever is politically expedient, let's put on a manufactured display of moral outrage to make political hay!
Save America, Waterboard a pussy Libtard!
#197 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2009-05-23 08:53 AM

Lemmie get this straight - you "understand" torture because of your experiences with your grandmother, therefore you want to "torture" others?

So, you do the same things to your kids? You are quite obviously one sick, stupid piece of work and could probably use counseling along with your entire perverted family.

"...Honestly, after seeing the video it even lessens the case against not using the waterboarding technique. Little kids playing at the local swimming pool ingest more water in their nostrils than Mancow did in this experiment....

#188 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-23 01:24 AM"

Maybe you should try it for 14 seconds and see if it still compares to little kids at a swimming pool.

I guess first hand experience from another non believer isn't enough for you. Maybe you need a more personal experience to make an honest evaluation. Because ,it didn't "look like" torture, didn't seem to get the point across to you. I doubt you would compare it to kids at the pool.

#209 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-05-23 12:28 PM


Okay, fair enough. I have always been of the belief one can never truly speak on behalf of another when one person has actually undergone a particular experience while the other person has not.

Sort of a play on the old saying "walk a mile in my moccasins."

But I don't feel the crux of this argument should be centered on whether or not the use of one type of interrogation technique may, or may not, be more "acceptable" than another.

Instead, shouldn't this debate really be focused on whether or not, in certain circumstances, the putting one man in a position of "extreme discomfort" for a short span of time is rightfully justified if doing so garners information which, if obtained and acted upon, would save the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people?

Think about it.

the putting one man = that putting one man

The criterion that obvious and/or lasting physical damage defines torture is tortured logic, at best.

Combining sleep deprivation, fear conditioning (with shocks, for instance), things like the chinese water torture, and other twisted psychological tortures, could easily add up to a lot worse than broken bones and lacerations.

Waterboarding causes a neurophysiological response, sending the brain into panic "HOLY FUCK I'M DYING" mode - acute stressors like these can have lasting effects, even after one exposure. Check out what Christopher Hitchens has to say about waking up in the middle of the night, feeling as if he were being smothered, in the link I posted at the top of the thread.

Enough acute and/or chronic stress of this kind will, in time, destroy a person psychologically, which in turn has physical symptoms.

Those deflecting with the likes of, "going to see the in-laws is torture!" are purposefully being obtuse, I think.

Either way, I've never understood why we have to lower ourselves to a level just slightly better than our enemies - we aren't shoving bamboo chutes under anyone's fingernails, but we're torturing in other ways.

The "eye-for-an-eye" crowd doesn't seem to understand this vicious cycle, and the long-term costs it incurs...

for CC...I couldn't resist a bad joke

"Instead, shouldn't this debate really be focused on whether or not, in certain circumstances, the putting one man in a position of "extreme discomfort" for a short span of time is rightfully justified if doing so garners information which, if obtained and acted upon, would save the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people?"

Hence JC, the only begotten savior...billions & trillions of people (& their pets?)in the future generations (on other planets, too) to be saved yet:>)

NO Christine You don't fucking get it. We must not torture EVER. We have become vietnam we have become china we have become japan we have become all the rest that have used torture. we have lost that right to condemn anyone for torture. WE DO NOT FUCKING TORTURE Christine get it through Your head. We are AMERICANS we are not supposed to be scum. Jesus Fucking Christ.

Larry

#208 I know you didn't ask me for it, but that's my 2 cents anyway.

No, I appreciate the input.

I understand about the heft, however having been using the 70-200 f2.8 for a few months, I'm getting used to it.

I've been a 35mm guy for 35 years with Pentax stuff (first 35mm camera Pentax KM. Still works) and swore by primes. However, since I've made the digital plunge, I've found that zooms have vastly improved. Still, I have two primes -- one of which does my low light stuff well. It's the 50mm f1.4. It's not the best lens in my bag, but it works well

My other prime is the 100mm f2.8. Now that is a sweet piece of glass. I highly recommend that one. It does remarkable macro work as well.

But I'm still pining for a full frame camera. Just can't seem to open my wallet for it.

Thanks again for the input on the 24-70mm

Think about it.

#223 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-23 03:05 PM | Reply | Flag


I have thought about it. No, the end doesn't justify the means. If we torture--we are killing the American ideal---not the terrorists. If many have to die for that morality--so be it--that's what America stands for. Anything else, we might as well be living in Nazi Germany. If we can torture foreignors to get information--why not US citizens? After all--US citizens were tortured by police for years before human rights were enforced---should we go back to that? Will you feel safer in a police state?

Think about it.

Larry,

NO Christine You don't fucking get it. We must not torture EVER....

I've never personally met, nor spoken to, either you or BuffaloBob (who essentially told me the same thing you did).

However, I feel I sort of know both you guys well enough now, and for a long enough time, to where I probably wouldn't hestitate having an "intense squeeze" put on an individual if I honestly thought that, by doing so, it would give me info whereby I was able to use it to save both of your lives. Guess neither of you would ever do that for me, though, would you.

However, I feel I sort of know both you guys well enough now, and for a long enough time, to where I probably wouldn't hestitate having an "intense squeeze" put on an individual if I honestly thought that, by doing so, it would give me info whereby I was able to use it to save both of your lives. Guess neither of you would ever do that for me, though, would you.

Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-23 03:31 PM | Reply


Please do not do it for Me. Let Me die I can live with that Thanks.

Larry

#201

Yav, you twist some of my words, misuse others, and ignore others pertinent to the topic. How do you expect to be taken seriously when using these tactics?

1) the 'fun' helicopter ride I referred to was just that. You said you saw the gifs. The 'ride' was the drop and plunge.

2) Furthermore I stated in a prior post that being submerged and having the water up my nose could be called torture

3) I never 'equated' the two experiences as you stated. I clearly asked the differences. In both, feet are above head. In both, face is covered with water and it gets up the nose. In both the people are restrained. It was a question to the crowd,(notice the "?" in my post?) not a declaration of equivalence

4) I never justified torture as you said is being done by one political side. The topic was strictly waterboarding and if it can be considered torture. Some people consider being tickled torture. Is it? Well, I guess all we need to do is ask you because it seems you arrogantly declare yourself the final arbiter in such matters when you say:

5) This is a settled issue. There is no debate. If there is no debate, keep your mouth shut then.

Let Me die I can live with that

The ultimate paradox

Guess instead of waterboarding them, we should have said outright that until I get the rest of the information that you have, you'll be eating pork daily for breakfast lunch and dinner. Would that have been construed as torture? Make them earn their beef instead of giving them beef all of the time.

Lonnie

Much of the debate surrounding torture is based on whether or not it is right to do it not on whether or not it provides truthful information. The fact that it often doesn't and that we won't know if it is or not makes it, as the CIA decided, not valuable as a tool for getting the information we need.

Well Danni must agree with Cheney to release the memos that talk about what the CIA did get from EIT's used on the 3 terrorists.

That's not going to happen because that wouldn't support any arguments that Obama wants to make on the subject.

Lonnie

CalifChris

Do me a favor--don't do me any favors.

If many have to die for that morality--so be it--that's what America stands for.


Well, Brave Buffalo Pie, when are you volunteering, as did many of us did.....and have the right to a Memorial Day.

"Well Danni must agree with Cheney to release the memos that talk about what the CIA did get from EIT's used on the 3 terrorists."

I've said so before and I don't care who is implicated however I believe Cheney is being disengenuous in his call for their release. He could have released them himself a few months ago. I think he is depending on Obama to not release them which is what the law says about them and he knows it.

Check this out:

"House GOP leader John Boehner has called on the Obama administration to release unspecified intelligence documents that supposedly will demonstrate that torture has been effective.

But Boehner won't say whether the CIA should release a key classified report that is said to find no proof that torture foiled terror plots, according to his office."

theplumline.whorunsgov.com

What a fool. Every rightwing nutcase who says this isn't torture should be compelled to try the same experiment.

-------------

For six months combined with sleep deprivation. Then ask them if they think that it isn't torture.

FROM: #223 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-05-23 03:05 PM:

"Sort of a play on the old saying "walk a mile in my moccasins."


I always enjoyed the rejoinder to this that goes something like this: It's good to walk a mile in someone else's moccasins since afterwards not only are they a mile away, but you now have their moccasins!


"But I don't feel the crux of this argument should be centered on whether or not the use of one type of interrogation technique may, or may not, be more "acceptable" than another."
Instead, shouldn't this debate really be focused on whether or not, in certain circumstances, the putting one man in a position of "extreme discomfort" for a short span of time is rightfully justified if doing so garners information which, if obtained and acted upon, would save the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people?
Think about it."


OK (and more seriously). I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but (to me) there are two serious flaws to your reasons:

1. This is basically an EJTM (End Justifies The Means) argument. SOME of the dangers/flaws with EJTM solutions have already been touched upon in this thread. MUCH more can be found regarding the flaws of EJTM arguments in 'Google-land', so I won't belabor that here. Personally, I do not believe/accept EJTM arguments. Apparently, you do. It's likely there's not much I could say that will sway you, but I do suggest reviewing the pros/cons of EJTM arguments from others as long as we're thinking about it.

2. It also seems a key component of your belief is that useful information will: a) be obtained AND b) can ONLY be obtained in this manner. While claims have been trotted out on this thread that a) and b) are true, I have not seen convincing evidence to support them. Actually, I believe there's evidence that supports the CONTRARY position.

Reading the Declaration of Independence is all you need to do to understand why torture cannot ever be considered as an acceptable practice by our government.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

It doesn't say, citizens of the United States have rights, it doesn't say that we can decide who has rights and who doesn't. It says "all men" have inalienable rights. Therefore, all men, including our enemies or enemy combatants or whatever other convoluted classification you come up with, are protected from torture.

.. My other prime is the 100mm f2.8. Now that is a sweet piece of glass. I highly recommend that one. It does remarkable macro work as well.
But I'm still pining for a full frame camera. Just can't seem to open my wallet for it.
Thanks again for the input on the 24-70mm
#229 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 03:28 PM

You don't make enough?! Uhm... What do you spend your hobby money on? A flying saucer? You guys supposedly rake in the bucks, for working men. Do they charge you for the hookers they fly in? ']


"Let Me die I can live with that"

The ultimate paradox
#234 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 03:51 PM

"Where there are people
there are flies, and also
there are Buddhas"
- Issa

Therefore, all men, including our enemies or enemy combatants or whatever other convoluted classification you come up with, are protected from torture.

I agree. What do they say about waterboarding, though?

Goatman5) This is a settled issue. There is no debate. If there is no debate, keep your mouth shut then.

Gotta love it. You just said:

Yav, you twist some of my words, misuse others, and ignore others pertinent to the topic. How do you expect to be taken seriously when using these tactics?

Ditto. I got your point just fine. You're doing what you always do - weasel around and play games with what you "actually" said.

1) the 'fun' helicopter ride I referred to was just that. You said you saw the gifs. The 'ride' was the drop and plunge.

The animation in the link you provided was a .gif animation. Not a video. That's what I was referring. I also went over the checklist.

Don't even pretend you weren't making an equivalence. CalifChris understanding of your point proved that already.

You're doing what you always do - weasel around and play games with what you "actually" said.

Why is it when I make a clearly defined stand people make their own interpretation of it then accuse me of playing word games? LOL Surely you see the irony here?

My words, your interpretation, yet it is I playing word games.

I love it!

"What do they say about waterboarding, though?"

Well, America has been on record about it being torture, certainly since WWII, if not before.

What date, exactly did it cease to be torture?

Well, America has been on record about it being torture, certainly since WWII, if not before.

The Japanese version, (gorging the prisoner with water an stomping on stomach) yes, but the American version? I'm not so sure. Do you have a link to substantiate this?

My words, your interpretation, yet it is I playing word games.

It's your game, it's your sport.

Why is it when I make a clearly defined stand people make their own interpretation of it then accuse me of playing word games?

Yeah, funny how so many have that problem with you making yourself clear. The problem has to be with all them.

Surely you see the irony here?

Oh I do, I most certainly do.

Yeah, funny how so many have that problem with you making yourself clear.

If you'd like to give examples (for your upthread post, too) fine. Otherwise, I really don't feel like responding to unsubstantiated allegations. I hope you don't mind

I notice you never answered my question as to what is different to my water survival training and what was done to mancow. Why? I presume because it's easier for you to go the ad hominem route?

Hence JC, the only begotten savior...billions & trillions of people (& their pets?)in the future generations (on other planets, too) to be saved yet:>)

#227 | Posted by Bani at 2009-05-23 03:17 PM


Damn, I wasn't even aware there were airplanes in those days, much less 3,000 dead Americans and an attempt to collapse economies throughout the civilized world.

The things you learn on the internet! How'd we ever get by without it?

We convicted our own for Waterboarding in Vietnam as well. Those who try to swing their dicks around this torture business are not really true Americans because they would not even bother debating it it would be settled matter. Oh well ttfn

Larry

"The Japanese version, (gorging the prisoner with water an stomping on stomach) yes, but the American version? I'm not so sure."

You've actually been reduced to this?!? Pathetic. Moral relativism at its worst.

"We convicted our own for Waterboarding in Vietnam as well. "

But the nasty Japanese type, or the kind, gentle American type???

I notice you never answered my question as to what is different to my water survival training and what was done to mancow. Why? I presume because it's easier for you to go the ad hominem route?

See post 201.

You've actually been reduced to this?!? Pathetic. Moral relativism at its worst.

But let's be clear. He's not playing any games with words or definitions. He's also completely unaware of anyone ever citing law or the UCMJ or letters from JAG officers, or that Reagan's own DOJ prosecuted a Texas Sherriff and 3 deputies for good ol' "American" waterboarding.

"Reagan's own DOJ prosecuted a Texas Sherriff and 3 deputies for good ol' "American" waterboarding."

But...but...but...that was before it ceased to be torture.

Now -- remind me -- what date was that, exactly?

Thank you, yav.

Yes I saw the post. And no, I wasn't drowned. Neither was mancow. The rest of it really doesn't describe mancow's experience either. Yet he describes a tortureous experience.

Again I ask, how is my experience different than what mancow went through? Why aren't I and thousands of other offshore workers left with the exerience mancow describes?

As I said to you in my #141, I think he was grandstanding and going for the sensational.

I have been talking about mancow (again, see #141 -- I even directly addressed you), but you deflect to waterboarding in general and accuse me of playing word games.

I don't know how I could have made my #141 more clear or less ambiguous. But inerpret away, buddy, and blame it on my playing of word games.

The Japanese version, (gorging the prisoner with water an stomping on stomach) yes, but the American version? I'm not so sure. Do you have a link to substantiate this?

#250 | Posted by goatman

Funny, the description from a military tribunal prosecuting the Japanese for waterboarding doesn't mention "stomping on the stomach".

"A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession."

Or the testimony from victims who were waterboarded...

Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:

"They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness."

www.washingtonpost.com

It sounds a whole lot (or exactly) like the "America version".

Oops - here's the description from the second victim:

"They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water."

Yes I saw the post. And no, I wasn't drowned. Neither was mancow. The rest of it really doesn't describe mancow's experience either. Yet he describes a tortureous experience.

Well there's the difference. Mancow was drowned. That's what waterboarding is. It is drowning, but not dying (if it's done right).

It's not simulated drowning.

It's not being underwater, or upside down in a controlled enough experience where you can hold your breath.

It's not constant water as in a pool or the ocean.

It's water hitting your face, splashing up your nose, down your throat, constant, inescapable, intentional. You don't know when it's going to stop, and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't get free. You can't escape.

After reading the Bushie apologists here, its easy to see why Shammitty won't live up to his word. He'd lose his audience. daddy Rush said waterboarding is fun and harmless,and any reality that disagrees with this must be eliminated.

"Obama has NEVER said any useful information came from waterboarding.

The only thing to come from waterboarding is to associate America with other nations that torture their prisoners.
#210 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob
-----------------

and like a good kool-aid drinking shill for the party, you believe anything he says right?

Lonnie
#212 | Posted by lwalk17 at 2009-05-23 01:15 PM"

Actually lwalk17, whether Buffalo_Bob believes "anything he says" is not claimed by Buffalo_Bob nor is it the issue. It appears Buffalo_Bob is countering earlier (on this thread and elsewhere) claims that President Obama said useful information came from waterboarding.

BTW, do you DISBELIEVE "anything he says"? If so, then the "kool-aid drinking shill" door swings in both directions. Just a thought.

It's water hitting your face, splashing up your nose, down your throat, constant, inescapable, intentional.

Sounds exactly like what happens during the emergency egress exercises except that there NO hope of inhaling air since you are completely submerged.

You don't know when it's going to stop, and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't get free. You can't escape

Not true. Mancow had a 'safe word' -- the stuffed cow in his hand.

I maintain mancow was grandstanding. I've been through exactly what he's been through sans rag on the face, and more water on mine.

Usually, it's Turd who does shit like this, like the time they put a nail through his hand. I used to wake up to Mancow back in my high school days.

Mancow as a pitchman.

www.youtube.com

"Not true. Mancow had a 'safe word' -- the stuffed cow in his hand.
#266 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 07:00 PM"

We've already discussed this, goatman.

Yes, Mr. Muller had a 'safe word' and he used it 'instantly'. However, the situation didn't stop for 6-7 seconds.

So..., which would you consider to be scarier:
having NO safe word or relying on a safe word which doesn't work (or at least "right away")?

I would think that the emergency egress excercises could be fun after the first few times. All you have to do is hold your breath for 30 seconds, and you know when it is going to happen, and when it is going to stop. You always have the chance of starting out with your lungs full of air, andyou know all the people around you care about your well being. Not so with waterboarding. Even if you mess up, there are guys in the water with you to help out. I would volunteer for that---I might even pay foir it. I would never volunteer for waterboarding. Comparing the two is like comparing the spanking you get on your birthday to the flogging on old English ships.

Well, Brave Buffalo Pie, when are you volunteering, as did many of us did.....and have the right to a Memorial Day.

#240 | Posted by Greatamerican at 2009-05-23 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag


I'm a Viet Nam Vet loud mouth. I just don't wave the flag and think it gives me any extra Super powers as an American.

I'm a Viet Nam Vet loud mouth. I just don't wave the flag and think it gives me any extra Super powers as an American.

#271 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob


Wow I actually agree with you and I thank you for your service.

Comparing the two is like comparing the spanking you get on your birthday to the flogging on old English ships.

No moving goalposts. I was comparing the emergency egress exercise to how mancow was waterboarded. The two procedures (including time) are virtually identical. Yet he describes a 'torturous' procedure. I would describe mine as uncomfortable, but certainly not anything that left me shaking and pale for 10 minutes (or whatever it was) that mancow described.

You, yav, et al keep moving the goalposts. If you go to to my first post on the issue (#99) you'll see that is the only thing I compared it to.

I maintain that mancow was grandstanding going for the sensational angle as I originally said in post #141.

Wow I actually agree with you and I thank you for your service

Indeed. That is something I'll never dispute with Bob.

"No moving goalposts. I was comparing the emergency egress exercise to how mancow was waterboarded. The two procedures (including time) are virtually identical. Yet he describes a 'torturous' procedure. I would describe mine as uncomfortable, but certainly not anything that left me shaking and pale for 10 minutes (or whatever it was) that mancow described.

You, yav, et al keep moving the goalposts. If you go to to my first post on the issue (#99) you'll see that is the only thing I compared it to.

I maintain that mancow was grandstanding going for the sensational angle as I originally said in post #141.
RE: #273 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 10:47 PM"


Well goatman, I could agree with what you said about your early post (#99) regarding your training and Mr. Muller's 'treatment'. And if you wanted to argue that what Mr. Muller experienced was NOT actual waterboarding, I could agree with that too.

HOWEVER when it comes to 'moving golaposts', you've completely neglected your later post (#115) in which you said: "The only difference I see between that ("that" being your training) and waterboarding is that I don't have a rag on my face.

Yes, it is unpleasant, and I guess I could call it torture, but if the Coast Guard forces civilians of all ages and both genders to do it to get their water survival card, can it be that bad?
#115 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 10:51 PM"


Bottom line: you might have begun with comparing Mr. Muller's treatment to your training, but you definitely compared your training to waterboarding, too



The two are not the same. In the emergency egress, you will have a lung full of air. In water boarding, you won't. In the emergency egress, you are completely submerged, and upside down for a few seconds. In waterboarding, the tilt is permanent, and the water is intermittent, going up your nose and into your lungs when you try to breath, in the emergency egress, you can hold your breath for the duration of the excercise--very little discomfort from water going up your nose. You can't hold yhour breath for the duration of a waterboarding excercise--big--HUGE difference. Knowing the people doing the waterboarding you may kill you with little repercussion adds to the terror, over knowing that the peple surrounding you have your best interests at heart.

Saying that just because you were upside down and had water in your face is the same as waterboarding is being intellectually dishonest. The same could be said of the ordinary shower except for the upside down part.

That the military doesn't consider it the same should be obvious---otherwise they would just put the prisoners in the emergency egress simulator and wait for the info. I would say that if you were waterboarded, your response would be the same as Mancow.

Ok, I know exactly why none of these guys wants to answer my question about what's the difference between waterboarding and rendition. Is rendition any more moral than waterboarding. I think the answer is clear, the messiah hasn't given them that talking point yet. Until he does, they will ignore the question every time it's asked.

Lonnie

Americans defending torture. Scary.

Americans defending the planner of 9/11. Horrifying.


Americans defending torture. Scary.

Posted by Scrumplet at 2009-05-24 06:22 AM | Reply

Scarey ain't the word for it. Blasphamy I would say. Blasphamy against American Ideals.

Larry

Yav, you twist some of my words, misuse others, and ignore others pertinent to the topic. How do you expect to be taken seriously when using these tactics?

#275 - TrueBlue, exactly.

Really.

Really

Reality

LOL

"No moving goalposts. I was comparing the emergency egress exercise to how mancow was waterboarded. The two procedures (including time) are virtually identical. Yet he describes a 'torturous' procedure. I would describe mine as uncomfortable, but certainly not anything that left me shaking and pale for 10 minutes (or whatever it was) that mancow described."

Well GoatTroll unless you have actually experienced waterboarding then you as usual don't having a fucking clue what you are talking about. Whether comparing it to "emergency egress" or when your waterwing popped at age 16 gives zero comparison point.

Shit I was a WSI and have even drowned in the past (I know its a pity it wasn't permanent) and don't claim to know the sympathetic response the body will give to waterboarding. I do know they are automatic and you have zero control over them. The body basically believes it is dying.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Well GoatTroll unless you have actually experienced waterboarding then you as usual don't having a fucking clue what you are talking about.

And if you don't read my posts you don't know what you are talking about.

I said that like mancow I have had water on my face while restrained and upside down for the same period of time.

If you're gonna troll, get the facts right, OK, furryhole? You don't look so foolish that way.

How about this Furio, the business end of a shotgun in their terrorist mouth?

Would that staunch the flow of your sorrow?

I agree with you terroist sympathizers, we never should have waterboarded the 3 that we did, we should have burned them alive.

Slowly.

None should be alive right now, it's a travesty.

"How about this Furio, the business end of a shotgun in their terrorist mouth?

Would that staunch the flow of your sorrow?

#286 | Posted by r_zeitgeist "

ZeitBitch,

It's called defining something for what it truly is.

If you feel torture should be used anytime, anywhere there don't cry like the little bitch you are when it is done to Americans. There is a reason why the Geneva Convention was established at it wasn't for pacifist reasons. why don't you go figure it out on your own.

There is a reason why the Geneva Convention was established...

Boy, that really worked out, didn't it?

"And if you don't read my posts you don't know what you are talking about.

I said that like mancow I have had water on my face while restrained and upside down for the same period of time.

If you're gonna troll, get the facts right, OK, furryhole? You don't look so foolish that way."

goattroll, your comments state your position. "Gee, I had the same thing done to me in every form except for the terminology and I didn't think it was a big deal".

If you haven't experienced an actual waterboarding then you don't have a position to compare to like your kinky Gay bath experience. sorry "emergency egress"

Obviously you feel extreme sorrow for the Khalid Shaikh Mohamed, the planner of 9-11, even though the Geneva conventions didn't and does not apply to enemy terrorists captured overseas.....

I weep with you over people who cut off heads of innocent Americans.

I feel the pain that directs your life over the terrorists who conceived and directed 9-11.

I wish you could share their fate.

I wish I could be the one to deliver that fate.

For your sake, of course.

"Boy, that really worked out, didn't it?"

which also why war crimes trials and executions were held.

If you want to world to devolve completely then let's just have unlimited warfare.

Come on Goattroll even you should remember from your military experience winning a war is not about killing your enemy but removing their will to fight.

"I wish I could be the one to deliver that fate.

For your sake, of course.

#292 | Posted by r_zeitgeist "

Zeitbitch in all likelyhood you are a 60yo fat geezer who never threw a punch in his adult life and cries like a little bitch at the slightest experience of pain. stop talking so tough you soft pussy.

...winning a war is not about killing your enemy ...

hmmm. I wonder what the guns, missles, and bombs are all about?

Strange. I thought they were to kill.

Yea, that's me....just the soft one.... I am the one that could ease your suffering, ease you and your hero's KSM's pain......

There is a place in Mohammeds heaven for you, virgins for your taking at the death of many infidels.

I'm here for you.

I await my moment of action.

It's coming.

goattroll, your comments state your position. "Gee, I had the same thing done to me in every form except for the terminology and I didn't think it was a big deal".

Well, furryhole, I never said the quote you attribute to me. But lying and dishonesty is exactly what the DR has come to expect from you, so who's surprised at your latest lie?

Too bad you position is so weak you have to resort to making up quotes and attributing them to me to make you point. Sad indeed.

Is there any stronger way you can call yourself a loser? I think not.

Well, furryhole, I never said the quote you attribute to me. But lying and dishonesty is exactly what the DR has come to expect from you, so who's surprised at your latest lie?

Oh look, Goatman's upset with Furio over what Goatman did to me on another thread with quotes. Though I have to say there's little doubt in reading Furio's post that that wasn't an actual Goatman quote.

Everyone's a liar except Goatman.

You know that's true because Rex has his six.

hmmm. I wonder what the guns, missles, and bombs are all about?


Strange. I thought they were to kill.

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 07:39 AM | Reply


First and foremost those weapons are used to intimidate. If that doesn't work then they are for killing.

Larry


Yea, that's me....just the soft one.... I am the one that could ease your suffering, ease you and your hero's KSM's pain......


There is a place in Mohammeds heaven for you, virgins for your taking at the death of many infidels.


I'm here for you.


I await my moment of action.

#296 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-05-24 07:43 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

BWHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH No Tough Guy I know of tried to brag to others how tough they were. They didn't need to because the really tough guys already knows it so they don't need to do any faux advertisement of it.

Larry

Oh look, Goatman's upset with Furio

Oh look, yav sides with the liar. Big surpise there. LOL

BTW, I'm not upset. Amused is a better description of my emotions after reading furryhole's post. More amused more accurately describes them after reading yours, yav. LOL

If it ever comes to it Furio, I am coming for you.

I will be the one to esae your pain, to ease you into next world.

I will do it with pleasure.


Obviously you feel extreme sorrow for the Khalid Shaikh Mohamed, the planner of 9-11, even though the Geneva conventions didn't and does not apply to enemy terrorists captured overseas.....


I weep with you over people who cut off heads of innocent Americans.


I feel the pain that directs your life over the terrorists who conceived and directed 9-11.


I wish you could share their fate.

#291 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-05-24 07:33 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Well according to the SCOTUS they DO apply as well as the Convention Against Torture as well as our own US Laws. so that blows that Bullshit out of the water.

Larry

Everyone's a liar except Goatman.

I don't believe this to be true, but accuracy isn't exactly your strong suit, so I understand your error, yav.

You have your own hell to deal with Larry, you don't need me barking at you.

First and foremost those weapons are used to intimidate.

Actually, Larry, weapons are for killing. I think I read that somewhere. If bombs were for intimidation, I don't think we'd drop them on cities full of people.

Actually, Larry, weapons are for killing. I think I read that somewhere. If bombs were for intimidation, I don't think we'd drop them on cities full of people.

Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 08:04 AM | Reply

You're full of shit as usual Goatman. Weapons are first and foremost for intimidation. Why do You think the Chinese North Koreans the Russians parade their weaponry down the streets every so often. It's to tell the world that See we tough mother effers and if You fight us we will kill You. Then if someone decides tyo take them up on that offer well then they are for killing. Why do You think they are called Defensive weapons??

Larry

Weapons are first and foremost for intimidation.

Well, Larry, the fact we drop bombs on cities knowing that they will kill people pretty much proves your wrong. The fact that a soldier points a gun AT a person and not OVER him when he pulls the trigger pretty much proves that the intent is to kill, not intimidate.

Please do try again in spades, you dig? LOL

Unless Rogers bans me again, I will burn KSM apologists alive.......

I will show no mercy.


Unless Rogers bans me again, I will burn KSM apologists alive.......


I will show no mercy.


Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-05-24 08:13 AM | Reply


bwhahahahaah too fricking funny.

Well, Larry, the fact we drop bombs on cities knowing that they will kill people pretty much proves your wrong. The fact that a soldier points a gun AT a person and not OVER him when he pulls the trigger pretty much proves that the intent is to kill, not intimidate.


Please do try again in spades, you dig? LOL

#309 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 08:13 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

What a dipshit. Do we go around attacking everyone first(With the exception of Iraq)?? Or do we wait until they have attacked us knowing full well we have weapons?? Your logic is flawed as usual.

Larry

Why do You think a Cop says don't move or else I will shoot?? He is trying to intimidate the person from making a move of aggression. If He makes any move of aggression THEN the Cop will shoot. Proves Your theory all to shit Goatman.

Larry

Laters

First and foremost those weapons are used to intimidate. If that doesn't work then they are for killing.

Shock and Awe, baby! Minimal collateral damage. We don't carpet bomb any more. Tactical, targeted weapons. Strategic sites.

Anyone that looks past the surface understands you have weapons to gain advantage. You win by defeating the opponent's strategy. How you defeat it varies.

Furio understands that because he's looking at the bigger picture.

BTW, I'm not upset. Amused is a better description of my emotions after reading furryhole's post.

OK, amused it is. BTW, nice ad hominem. Weren't you whining about that earlier? Why yes, you were: #252.

I don't believe this to be true, but accuracy isn't exactly your strong suit, so I understand your error, yav.

Ad hominem et ad hominem. I'm do my best to be accurate, certainly much more than you appear care. If you think I honestly believe you think "Everyone's a liar except Goatman" you're either an idiot (which you're not) or you're being purposefully disingenuous.

Why is it when I make a clearly defined stand people make their own interpretation of it then accuse me of playing word games?

Because they're just not as bright as you? They're liars? You tell me - don't let me put words in your mouth or let go with some hyperbole of my own that you will then turn around and whine about accuracy or calling it an "error."

Do you think your soul is insulated from pain Larry?

Do you think I can't bring pain on you with a flick of my fingers?

You are an easy target of pain, you bring your own horror on yourself.

You don't need me.

Do we go around attacking everyone first(With the exception of Iraq)?? Or do we wait until they have attacked us knowing full well we have weapons?? Your logic is flawed as usual

Do you point a rifle at a person or over him? Is a bomb dropped on a city or in the ocean? Is a torpedo fired at a submarine or away from it.

Weapons are for killing. Otherwise the rifle would be pointed over a person. The bomb would not be dropped on a city. The torpedo would be fired away from the sub.

You are a very, very funny person Larry. I truly appreciate the laughs you bring as you relate your bizarre vision of the world. You dig?

Because they're just not as bright as you? They're liars? You tell me

Perhaps you should tell me. You are the one who took the side of furio the liar. (not that I care, but you ask so I bring it up as a case in point) Why would you side with the lie he spoke over the truth I spoke?

Unless Rogers bans me again, I will burn KSM apologists alive.......

I will show no mercy.

Posted by r_zeitgeist

Says Rex as he flops on his back and pounds his heels on the linoleum.

You're right, LARRY. Too f'n funny.

Can't you just picture it in your mind?

I'm right here, speak to me....


Tell me of the pain KSM endured.

Let's interact.

I like to gut fish......

You are the one who took the side of furio the liar. (not that I care, but you ask so I bring it up as a case in point) Why would you side with the lie he spoke over the truth I spoke?

He's more honest than you. Especially in the above argument. You have to ignore everything I said and twist it to come out with that load of crap.

Hey, you can call him a liar all you want. Continue to be the amazingly unconscious hypocrite with a blind spot a mile wide. I don't care. Knock yourself out.

I find it all amusing.

Now please, lecture me about honesty again. That never gets old.

You have until the hour's up though. I have a full day :)

"Ok, I know exactly why none of these guys wants to answer my question about what's the difference between waterboarding and rendition. Is rendition any more moral than waterboarding. I think the answer is clear, the messiah hasn't given them that talking point yet. Until he does, they will ignore the question every time it's asked.

Lonnie
#277 | Posted by lwalk17 at 2009-05-24 12:30 AM"


Sorry lwalk17, I must have missed where you asked this question.

Ok, RENDITION: "To "hand over" people or property from one legal jurisdiction (such as a state) to another. The term "extraordinary rendition" has been used in recent years to describe the transfer of individuals by governments for purposes other than standing trial or providing evidence within the justice system."

lmgtfy.com

For simplicity, I'll not post a definition for waterboarding. In any event, it would seem "rendition" and "waterboarding" are two completely different things. They MIGHT occur together, but one does not (necessarily) follow or cause the other. As such, determining which is "more moral" is a fool's errand (BTW, determining which is "more moral" is usually a useless exercise in general, but especially in this case).

That's the best I can do, well at least until I hear from "the messiah" ;-)!

Checking in.

It is hard to understand how anyone could be for waterboarding given that it has been illegal for 110 years in the US and it is against international law.

During the Clinton impeachment every republican was blathering about the rule of law, even though clinton just told a white lie over a private sexual encounter with a consensual adult. He hurt no one.

Bush and Cheney lied to go to war and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and 4,700 American soldiers. They also committed war crimes by torturing prisoners to get false links between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

The Bush Regime is the most corrupt and evil one in our country's history.

I am a professional scuba diver. I have trained with NASA and the US Army. In all of my training I have been subjected to every imaginable situation in the water. I dove in three oceans, two seas and dozens of lakes.

The most terrifying dive I experienced was beneath a small waterfall in the Comel river in San Marcus, Texas where I came close to drowning for the first time because I was trapped in a turbulent current. But nothing close to being waterboarded.

Yesterday, I reacted what Mancow went through. But I wasn't held down. And I didn't have a towel over my nose. But I only lasted a few seconds and had to stop. The sensation of having water pouring into my nose with my head back was unlike anything I have experienced as a diver.

Being submerged in the sea, lakes or in astronaut training facilities never gave me the primal feeling of dying that victims of waterboarding experience. The guy on this board who is comparing helicopter egress to waterboarding obviously hasn't even tried going through what waterboarding victims do.

YIKES!

Forget the goalposts, goatman, let's get back into the STADIUM! Yes, I do realize you're probably just responding to posts from others that took the discussion so far afield.

So, while I personally wouldn't have put it the way he did, furios's post (#284) was right on the mark. Also, you have not acknowledged that you did compare your egress training to waterboarding (and not just to Mr. Muller's treatment). That's fine with me (and yes, I know you don't require my approval), but let's not attack the 'honesty' of others when it's pointed out.

Do you point a rifle at a person or over him? Is a bomb dropped on a city or in the ocean? Is a torpedo fired at a submarine or away from it.


Weapons are for killing. Otherwise the rifle would be pointed over a person. The bomb would not be dropped on a city. The torpedo would be fired away from the sub.


You are a very, very funny person Larry. I truly appreciate the laughs you bring as you relate your bizarre vision of the world. You dig?

#317 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 08:21 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Hey while I was coming back from placing flowers on graves. The COLD WAR. Prime Example of Weapons used for Intimidation First and then killing Second. So You see Goatman You're full of shit once again.

Larry

Says Rex as he flops on his back and pounds his heels on the linoleum.


You're right, LARRY. Too f'n funny.


Can't you just picture it in your mind?


#319 | Posted by Twinpac at 2009-05-24 08:35 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Yeah I think it's hilarious that Rex has to resort to bullshit to try and make Himself look all tough and shit. Calling people derogatory terms or epitaphs may hurt the heart it doesn't hurt the body. Seems to me if You are trying to make believe that You are one tough S O B You wouldn't use words You would use fists. Of course in My personal opinion using fists is childish. Real Men and Real Women settle things through talking. That's why War is SUPPOSED to be waged as a last resort. It is saying We could not come to a rational mature compromize so we have to act bullish(Warring) to get our way. Bunch of shit if You ask Me.

Larry

First and foremost those weapons are used to intimidate. If that doesn't work then they are for killing.

Larry

#300 | Posted by LarryMohr
-------------------
Just what we need a rebel without a clue? Hello? Anybody home? Those weapons are to kill, maim, and take out key structures and people inside them point blank!

First wave: Planes with lot's of bombs take out strategic targets. Those are radar sites, airports, Early Warning systems, power plants, water plants, and any people inside those structures.

Second wave: Take out the bases and look for troops on the ground to kill.

Third wave: Send in ground troops to pick up the scraps.

Honestly, if we were shooting for intimidation, we'd drop those things outside the city so the population could sit in their houses and watch them go boom! Not sure how in the hell you came to that conclusion in the first place.

Lonnie

For simplicity, I'll not post a definition for waterboarding. In any event, it would seem "rendition" and "waterboarding" are two completely different things. They MIGHT occur together, but one does not (necessarily) follow or cause the other. As such, determining which is "more moral" is a fool's errand (BTW, determining which is "more moral" is usually a useless exercise in general, but especially in this case).

That's the best I can do, well at least until I hear from "the messiah" ;-)!

#325 | Posted by TrueBlue
-------------------
I know the definitions TrueBlue. I asked if one is supposedly more moral than the other? We all know that Waterboarding is supposedly not moral. I guess what the defining argument should be is, is it moral to capture someone on the battlefield and send them to Egypt so they can have far worse procedures used on them?

Wouldn't that eliminate any moral high ground we achieved from waterboarding? I mean we're not the ones who beat or used extreme interrogations on the person but we are the person who hired someone else to do our bitch work.

If you were to look at it from a legal point of view and there have been cases like this. A husband decides he wants till death do us part to come earlier than it is supposed to be. He hires a hitman and he does the dead. Now the husband it just as guilty of the crime as the hitman.

So while all you limp wrists are out there complaining about waterboarding and talking about moral high ground, there is no moral high ground because we are using a Rendition policy. So if the DR lefties want to take the moral high ground then they should probably argue against Rendition. Although none of you seem to have a problem with Rendition.

Waterboarding is probably 20 times better than Rendition because the Egyptians have some pretty harsh interrogation techniques. Now the sad realities are everyone seems to be yelling and screaming over 3 people being waterboarded. How many islamic scumbags do we have? I saw a figure of 240 once but I can't be 100% sure. This has happened over a period of about 6 years. Who cares if KSM has nightmares over being waterboarded. He's a deplorable human being who's killed more than 3,000 people. Just maybe the bastard deserves to have nightmares!

You guys like to make believe we waterboarded every one of the scumbags which clearly we haven't. In order to get waterboarded you'd have to be in the leadership of "Terrorists are us" or deeply involved in a terrorist plot to commit a terror attack. I'm perfectly fine with those select few getting waterboarded.

Again, you have no moral high ground stopping waterboarding and sending these select few to other countries to do your dirty work. Dirty deeds are still being done as long as we have a rendition policy.

Lonnie

Come on libs ...don't you remember your college years ...I'm sure some of you pledged your Frat drinking beer same way as waterboarding. If we change it to "beer" waterboarding will that no longer be considered torture? I think we should just make a new law that states if the president or director of CIA feels information could save millions of lives and is time sensitive then it is ok to torture only under those circumstances.
Darkstar

It's called a keg stand.

The only difference is that the booze goes in your mouth, not your stomach, and they stop when you've chugged your fill.

Zombie,

It still makes it to your stomach unless liberal bodies are much different than conservative's bodies.

Lonnie

No differences in bodies between them as far a I can discern.

Prostitution is legal at the ChickenRanch, too:>)

. Also, you have not acknowledged that you did compare your egress training to waterboarding (and not just to Mr. Muller's treatment).

I guess you missed my response to your post #173 in post #179 That's OK. It's a long thread.

WB Goatman!

Lonnie

Unless Rogers bans me again, I will burn KSM apologists alive.......

I will show no mercy.

#310 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-05-24 08:13 AM | Reply | Flag: Internet Tough Kid

"Also, you have not acknowledged that you did compare your egress training to waterboarding (and not just to Mr. Muller's treatment).

I guess you missed my response to your post #173 in post #179 That's OK. It's a long thread.
#337 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 01:27 PM"


Didn't miss your #179 post at all (then or now), goatman, and (I assume) you actually meant my post #174. In fact, here is your post #179 in its entirety:

"Trueblue -- I will concede that you (et alia who made this point) may have a valid argument in the psychological aspect since the physical aspect of mancow's *snicker again* situation and mine are virtually identical -- even to the timing.

However, I still have a hard time labeling a few seconds of psychological terror as torture and removing it from the bag or interrogation techniques the CIA uses.

Had I not had my own experiences with the physical side of the procedure, I may feel differently. But I can say first hand that the physical part of it is not that bad.
#179 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 12:14 AM"


Your apparent minimal concession ('I will concede that you (et alia who made this point) may have a valid argument in the psychological aspect') addresses my point that waterboarding is different from egress training. However, I don't see where you acknowledge that you had compared your egress training to waterboarding after all. Feel free to point it out, this thread isn't THAT long.



However, I don't see where you acknowledge that you had compared your egress training to waterboarding after all.

Rather than get bogged down in minutia, sentence diagramming and even syllabic parsing (which I'm told the DR hates me to do) to make my point, I'll simply concede it.

Will you also concede that the reason you chose the handle "Goatman" is due to certain, um, proclivities? (Just joking.)

Will you also concede that the reason you chose the handle "Goatman" is due to certain, um, proclivities?

Yes. I used to fuck my nanny. *grin*

wrong thread for 'em proclivites, too...Bilderberger thread is the place to be:>)

RE: #332 | Posted by lwalk17 at 2009-05-24 11:05 AM

"I guess what the defining argument should be is, is it moral to capture someone on the battlefield and send them to Egypt so they can have far worse procedures used on them?"


And I guess you should have said that.

OK, I'll address THAT:
I completely agree with you that it is disengenuous and hypocritical to hire (or actively transfer responsibility to) someone to do "our dirty work". That would ALSO be unethical and definitely does not absolve us of responsibility. BTW, you do realize that you are comparing what someone else MIGHT DO in our stead versus what we ACTUALLY DO (regardless of how certain that might be, it still is comparing 'actual' to 'possible'). "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?" (I LUV that chickenrancher! Regardless that we might disagree on many/most issues, your comment is a funny/succinct way of dealing with such non-arguments.).

Also, your claim that "Waterboarding is probably 20 times better than Rendition" is ludicrous if not specious! Just HOW did you come up with that factor??? Actually, don't bother...


"You guys like to make believe we waterboarded every one of the scumbags which clearly we haven't. In order to get waterboarded you'd have to be in the leadership of "Terrorists are us" or deeply involved in a terrorist plot to commit a terror attack. I'm perfectly fine with those select few getting waterboarded."


I'm not sure who 'you guys' are, but it's not me and (as such) I can't/won't answer for them. IF you are lumping me into that group, then you are presenting a Strawman. Meanwhile, you have no idea/evidence/proof that only "Terrorists are us" are being waterboarded, so you are just howling at the moon with that. BTW, I know that I don't know either, but then I'm not the one making the claim...

AGAIN, I believe it is not possible to evaluate the "level of moralness". IMHO, to do so will ultimately degenerate into EJTM (End Justifies The Means) solutions. As such, each EJTM diminishes US and who we are (or at least claim to be). I understand that you, lwalk17, don't agree with that position (or at least don't seem to have as much trouble with it that I do). OK, fair enough...





"I'm perfectly fine with those select few getting waterboarded."

Which select few?

whatreallyhappened.com


"However, I don't see where you acknowledge that you had compared your egress training to waterboarding after all.


Rather than get bogged down in minutia, sentence diagramming and even syllabic parsing (which I'm told the DR hates me to do) to make my point, I'll simply concede it.
#341 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 02:51 PM"

Wow, did I just "out-goat", goatman???
There truly is no hope for me... ;-)!

MORE seriously: apologies for being a 'dog with a bone', goatman, but it was precisely your post #115 which finally "inspired" me into responding. All in all, it's good this topic is being hashed out. Thanx for helping that along!

"Well, furryhole, I never said the quote you attribute to me. But lying and dishonesty is exactly what the DR has come to expect from you, so who's surprised at your latest lie?

Too bad you position is so weak you have to resort to making up quotes and attributing them to me to make you point. Sad indeed.

Is there any stronger way you can call yourself a loser? I think not.

#298 | Posted by goatman at "

fucking pathetic GoatTroll. You talk about your "Waterboard Analogy" like it was no big deal then you cry like a little bitch when outed. I wasn't making up quotes just clarifying your position. Go fuck off and bother your rigmates troll.

#348 LOL. Furryhole gets caught lying big time and tries to blame shift.

You're busted. Deal with it, crybaby!

#2 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2009-05-22 05:01 PM

I wonder, what will be the deflection this time?

That this guy is a plant, or a closeted limpwristed lib? Probably. Anything but the issue.

Atavistic simpletons who can't understand the physiological response waterboarding elicits will never understand that it's torture until they try it.


Who gives a tinker's dam regarding the pain inflicted on those who have information that might be useful in interdicting possible attacks on us. That focus detracts people from what is the crux of the matter, which is critical, and thqat is the use of any and all means to reduce the chance of our people being harmed. Waterboarding or whatever other methods are used is just a tool, and it is probably effective because of the pain. Infliction of unendurable pain is the tool.

Any society that is worth preserving will take measures necessary to protect its members from harm by out-group- members.

At English Common Law, there were "out laws," outlaws, people who because of whom they were or what they had done, were not provided the King's protection and for whom the Shire Reeve, the Sheriff, would not respond. This was the consequence of being an outlaw.

The consequence of being in a position of being suspected of intent to do great harm to Americans is certainly sufficient to exclude these jihadists from the protections provided to others.

That our attempts to secure information could even be raised as an issue and debated, demonstrates that we are an effete and degenerate and decadent society. A society that even stops to evaluate the propriety of actions designed to protect its people is on the road to Darwinian extinction. It's a society with no blood in its belly, no intrinsic sense of worth and value. It is a society that has no intuitive drive to defend itself, and protect its members, instead engaging in mindless argumentation. Our society has become so "sophisticated" that it is complicit in assisting in its own destruction.

"#348 LOL. Furryhole gets caught lying big time and tries to blame shift.

You're busted. Deal with it, crybaby!
#349 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 06:52 PM"


*sigh*

Just can't take break from throwing bricks from a glass house can you, goatman? You might feel you 'generously' conceded "rather than get bogged down in minutia, sentence diagramming and even syllabic parsing (which I'm told the DR hates me to do) to make my point", but here's what you are on record for:


"The only difference I see between that [that=helicopter egress training] and waterboarding is that I don't have a rag on my face.
#115 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 10:51 PM"


In case there was some doubt about what you meant, you confirmed it with:


"Again you cower away with your tail between your legs rather than answer the simple question I asked you about my survival training vs waterboarding. Actually, boyd, you answered.
There is no difference. You are just too cowardly to admit it. LOL
#161 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-22 11:45 PM"


Regardless of the validity, at least you were consistent until:


"3) I never 'equated' the two experiences as you stated. I clearly asked the differences. In both, feet are above head. In both, face is covered with water and it gets up the nose. In both the people are restrained. It was a question to the crowd,(notice the "?" in my post?) not a declaration of equivalence
#233 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 03:50 PM"

which you followed with:

"No moving goalposts. I was comparing the emergency egress exercise to how mancow was waterboarded. The two procedures (including time) are virtually identical. Yet he describes a 'torturous' procedure. I would describe mine as uncomfortable, but certainly not anything that left me shaking and pale for 10 minutes (or whatever it was) that mancow described.

You, yav, et al keep moving the goalposts. If you go to to my first post on the issue (#99) you'll see that is the only thing I compared it to.

I maintain that mancow was grandstanding going for the sensational angle as I originally said in post #141.
#273 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-23 10:47 PM"



Does waterboarding have long-term physical effects?

During waterboarding, some of this water can flow through the nostrils and into the lungs, Keller explains. Water in the lungs, especially if it's dirty, can cause potentially deadly pneumonia or pleuritis, an inflammation of the lung lining...

...But don't underestimate how tightly intertwined the physical and psychological experiences of waterboarding are, Keller notes. Since it mimics the terrifying sensation of drowning, it triggers the release of stress hormones called catecholamines that can cause heart rate and blood pressure to soar, potentially setting the stage for heart attack in a person with underlying heart disease, he says...

...Waterboarding might be an ideal way to cause a fear-induced heart problem, Samuels speculates, pointing to experiments by the late Johns Hopkins psychobiologist Curt Richter, who in the 1950s created what he called a "swimming" jar for wild rats that was partially filled with water, allowing them to swim but not escape. The rats often died, and when Richter examined their hearts, he found damage suggesting stress hormones caused heart muscle cells to contract uncontrollably, Samuels explains.

"Make no mistake about it, [waterboarding] is a profoundly traumatic event," Keller says. "The physical and psychological and social aspects are all interdependent and feed off one another."

yes, trueblue -- you made your point (again). Would you like three Hail Marys, an Our Father and an Act of Contrition from me, or is it a monetary penance you seek?

Nobody has any thoughts or comments re: my #352?

"yes, trueblue -- you made your point (again). Would you like three Hail Marys, an Our Father and an Act of Contrition from me, or is it a monetary penance you seek?
#353 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-24 09:16 PM"

My my!

Doesn't sound like you get called out too often.

The irony is you berate (and 'berate' is being diplomatic) others on their honesty, but you have YET to 'man up' here on this issue (your snarky 'martyrdom pleas' notwithstanding).

It's Ok by me, tho'. I truly do appreciate your participation on this thread and how that helped spark the discussions.

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
- Mark Twain

"Nobody has any thoughts or comments re: my #352?
#354 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2009-05-24 10:09 PM"

Thanx for posting this. I've little to add except it is consistent with what I've read of testimonies from those who have undergone waterboarding. Personally though, I can't speak from experience.

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