Is it the gop's goal to hold these people in Cuba forever without a trial?

I just want to be sure that I am clear on exactly what the gop wants done to these people. Some have already been cleared right?

So, what does the gop want done with them?

Govern by polls.

Now THAT'S leadership! Gobama! Go Dems!

So, what does the gop want done with them?

They don't have a plan. Nor do the Dems.

These sociopathic assholes don't neatly fall into our current definitions of justice and legality.

As a nation we need to address this in a mature and pragmatic manner. Yet, we are 'enjoying' the opposite effect. We are now beginning to experience a redux of the Church CIA condemnations. An effective intelligence agency is a complete anethema to a transparent society.

A total lefty approach results in several other 9-11's.

A total righty approach results in a police state, or at the very least an intel agency every bit as ruthless as what Israel employs.

We are in desperate need of a national discussion as to where the line should be drawn.

Unfortunately, we have politicians playing bullshit games when real, bi-partisan discourse should be taking place.

I don't know what do the dems want done with them?

Senate blocks funds for Gitmo closure?

Obama should block all funds from keeping gitmo open.

What do you propose we do with all of those detainees, Money?

Just let them go?

These sociopathic assholes don't neatly fall into our current definitions of justice and legality.

Bullshit, either they are terrorist or they are not, if we are holding them we should have proof they are terrorists. As far as I know terrorism is grounds for jail.

Either we honor our laws or corruption of the system begins, and we can clearly see that from bush our system is being corrupted.

What do you propose we do with all of those detainees, Money?

Just let them go?

#6 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-05-20 03:49 PM

If innocent, 1 way ticket back home.

If guilty, wherever they would send a "normal" prisoner of war.

What does holding them indefinitely accomplish?

#7 | Posted by moneywar

Do you understand the nature behind 'intelligence'? Most of these scumbags aren't 'convictable' based upon out rightly-protected burden of proof. Having said that, most of these guys are guilty and dangerous, but are 'safe' in our legal system. Bush passed the baton for a reason. Obama has tiptoed around this for a reason - we are ill-equipped to deal with this given our legal code.

Bush, with all of his stubbornness and divisiveness made ratoinal discussion on this issue impossible. Obama appears poided to follow in his footstepx - how sad!

If guilty, wherever they would send a "normal" prisoner of war.

The problem being that what passes muster in court is very different from what passes muster in the field.

How do we reconcile the 2?

Where is the 20th hijacker these days?

So, what does the gop want done with them?
Posted by Manypaths

Why ask the minority party. Your party is in charge and look at the big balls Reid has. No funding and per usual, no solution.

As much as I hate Gitmo, etc. JeffJ raises some important points. Asshats like KSM are in Gitmo and are a threat to the US and need to be detained. There are likely some not so bad people.

However, we absolutely need to give these people their day in court. Habeaus Corpus is the foundation of modern justice.

It is just not right to hold people indefinitely without trial.

I think that the Nuremburg Trials could be used as an example of a court that could be used. An international court that can give the detainees a chance to have their case heard.

That being said, there must be some give over evidence and witnesses, etc. KSM and the like should not get off because of the fact they were tortured. (one of the many problems with torture is the damning effect it has on justice for the accused). There must be a mechanism to protect sources and intelligence that genuinely effects national security (ie spying, electronic surveillance techniques, etc).

There needs to be a fine balance between justice and security but indefinite confinement without trial is just plain wrong. Espcially when the crime is some cases likely a political difference instead of the actual planning or attempts at terrorism.

Most of these scumbags aren't 'convictable' based upon out rightly-protected burden of proof.

Bush and cheney probably should have thought of that when they were waterboarding with glee.

Why ask the minority party. #12 | Posted by wisgod

Maybe you missed the headline of this thread Wis.

TH!?!

You are sounding...dare I say it...reasonable!

It's a tough topic to deal with. I was hoping that Obama's popularity would lend itself to a rational discusson on this issue. So far, that doesn't appear to be the case. He would do himself tremendous credit by accurately characterizing this for what it is and then asking for bi-partisanship in crafting a solution.

Unfortunately, he is running out of time.

Do you understand the nature behind 'intelligence'?

Yes, and apparently you haven't been following our intelligence the last few years because it has failed in too many ways....which would lend to questioning of how proof is so damn important within our legal system.

Most of these scumbags aren't 'convictable' based upon out rightly-protected burden of proof. Having said that, most of these guys are guilty and dangerous

JeffJ, like I said earlier, not holding strong to our laws propagates the corruptions of the entire system, and the fact you say """most of thes guys are guilty and dangerour""" without ever having to prove such makes my point.

He would do himself tremendous credit by accurately characterizing this for what it is and then asking for bi-partisanship in crafting a solution.

Unfortunately, he is running out of time.

Tune in tomorrow Jeff:

President Barack Obama will attempt to regain control of a boiling debate over anti-terrorism policy with a major speech on Thursday--

And when Al Quaeda tortures and holds Americans indefinitely the righties here can take credit. How can we claim moral superiority if we are doing similar actions that the terrorists are doing??
Torture has made us less safe and created more terrorists.

Danni you ignorant cooze, name one american prisoner of Al Quaeda who wasn't found weeks later dismembered and dead.

I know how we can get that place shut down really fast.

Throw a Senator from each side of the aisle into GITMO and they rest of them will figure this shit out lickity-split.

Maybe you missed the headline of this thread Wis.

#15 | Posted by Manypaths

Oh, I see. Mitch McConnell made Harry Reid and the Democratic majority his bitch. Yes sir.

guess old mitch likes men's ass

typical republican.

Danni you ignorant cooze, name one american prisoner of Al Quaeda who wasn't found weeks later dismembered and dead.

And this proves....WHAT???? That Al Quada isn't a law and moral terrorist group!!!!

I just don't understand the point here.

I just don't understand the point here.

#24 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-05-20 04:35 PM | Reply

Of course you don't.

Danni you ignorant cooze, name one american prisoner of Al Quaeda who wasn't found weeks later dismembered and dead.

On one hand Al Quaeda was the morally upstanding here, at least they killed em. The US on the other hand keeps them forever and tortures them over and over.

And when Al Quaeda tortures and holds Americans indefinitely the righties here can take credit.

#19 | Posted by danni at 2009-05-20 04:27 PM | Reply |

As if they will only do it because we opened Gitmo. Or waterboarded. Or didn't serve rice pilaf on Wednesday at Gitmo.

You flakes are fucking hilarious in how far you'll go to be disingenuous.

Danni,
Tell me how any american prisoner has been treated by Al Quaeda both pre and post gitmo. Then try to rationalize your #19...

On one hand Al Quaeda was the morally upstanding here, at least they killed em. The US on the other hand keeps them forever and tortures them over and over.

#26 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-05-20 04:38 PM | Reply | Flag: LIBERAL RETARD

Of course you don't.

Spell it out 101, it is different if YOU actually have to say your point instead of leaving it as a back door suggestion.

Say your point so we can all read the belief you have in trashing our justice system for anger over how al quaeda treated our soldiers.

I like that mentality.......They killed our troops so I want to trash our justice system.......sound reasonable to me, how about you!

JeffJ, like I said earlier, not holding strong to our laws propagates the corruptions of the entire system, and the fact you say """most of thes guys are guilty and dangerour""" without ever having to prove such makes my point.

Especially since more than half of the Gitmo detainees have been released without being charged.

Where is the 20th hijacker these days?

Anyone?

#28 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-05-20 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag: So am I supposed to start some kind of flag war now.

He's with Clarence, the 5th Beatle.

Moneywar,
If somebody else doesn't get the point, I'll explain it, but for now, I believe only a dumbshit wouldn't understand it.

You couldn't work the word 'chuck' into your last post on the nooner Chair?

Slightly disappointed......

Yep, I figure as much 101, don't like the idea of having to actually put the thought and visually see it. Convoluted thinking does that to people.

#29 | Posted by moneywar

101ST: What?

Still stinging I see. You're too much.

Yep, I figure as much 101, don't like the idea of having to actually put the thought and visually see it. Convoluted thinking does that to people.

#35 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-05-20 04:52 PM | Reply

Honestly, you can't possibly be this stupid. Read #19 again, then see #20.
It's not rocket science.

It's not rocket science.

#39 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-05-20 05:00 PM

You're talking about EnglishWar here.

Chuckle chuckle chuckle, you so funny!

On one hand Al Quaeda was the morally upstanding here, at least they killed em. The US on the other hand keeps them forever and tortures them over and over.

#26 | Posted by moneywar
* * * *

Wow. Are you a douchebag.

Point taken, though. If it's "morally upstanding" just to kill them, I'll go along with that too.

"Don't leave anyone alive behind you."

"Don't leave anyone alive behind you."

#42 | Posted by rightisright

Not if you care about them and have to fart.

I'm shocked Danni didn't follow up on this. Perhaps she was unaware of the responses?

And when Al Quaeda tortures and holds Americans indefinitely the righties here can take credit. How can we claim moral superiority if we are doing similar actions that the terrorists are doing??
Torture has made us less safe and created more terrorists.

#19 | Posted by danni

Oh yeah right, Danni. Terrorists torture and behead Americans because we've water boarded a few of them. Our interrogations have made us no less safe. What you are saying is that if we stopped capturing and questioning terrorists then they would stop torturing and beheading Americans. That's what you just said. Damn that's just as stupid as it gets.

Oh yeah right, Danni. Terrorists torture and behead Americans because we've water boarded a few of them. Our interrogations have made us no less safe. What you are saying is that if we stopped capturing and questioning terrorists then they would stop torturing and beheading Americans. That's what you just said. Damn that's just as stupid as it gets.

~EverWrong

First, exactly how many Americans have been tortured and beheaded?

You got a number there?

Second, if you don't realise the amount of sympathy, support and recruits garnered by the forces of radical Islam as a direct result of adopting policies of torture and abuse then you don't know much at all.

Third, nobody sed that America retaking the high moral ground would stop terrorists from attacking and beheading and such just that there would be less incentive for them to do so.

Either you deliberately leave these important details out of yer argument, in which case yer a disingenuous ass, or you are too stupid to even see the big picture.

Be Well.