Hope and Change

Transparency

SUCKERS

Of course we don't want to mention that it is the Bush Administration's amendment to Executive Order 12958 that precludes releasing these documents.

Hope and Change

Transparency

#1 | POSTED BY CHICKENRANCHER

You want Transparency then release it all.

Including Marquis de Cheney's Abu Ghraib scrapbook...

Dear Mr. Cheney, in case you hadn't noticed, we now have a new President and Vice President that the CIA takes orders from.

The bitches are circling the wagons.

"The bitches are circling the wagons."

You're talking about Pelosi and her cabal of idiots...right? I love it, she's even got Stewart bustin' her chops now.

"Given House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's acknowledged skill at torturing the Bush Administration in recent years, it no doubt afforded her critics some pleasure yesterday to watch her twist in the wind in front of the press over what she knew and when about the CIA's terrorist interrogations. With mockery even from Jon Stewart on Comedy Central, Mrs. Pelosi has turned herself into a spectacle about a subject that she and fellow Democrats had themselves reduced to a spectacle of demagogic accusation and blame...."

"Whatever one's politics may be, there has to be some recognition that Washington -- the U.S. government -- simply can't function if it is endlessly entangled in the exquisitely argued, one might say absurd, blame-games that she and some Democrats are running against former Bush officials, and that now threaten the political standing of the Speaker herself."

"
Hope and Change

Transparency

SUCKERS

#1 | Posted by chickenrancher at 2009-05-14 09:08 PM | "

Yeah ChickenChoker, just publish any clasified doc just likes those on Plame.

such a sack of shit traitor you are.

You're talking about Pelosi and her cabal of idiots...right? I love it, she's even got Stewart bustin' her chops now.

No, we're not talking about Pelosi. Only you are, since it's the only thing you think you're making a point. How many threads are you going to post that WSJ opinion piece?

It's irrelevant and doesn't change the basic facts:
Bush/Cheney enabled by a Republican controlled Congress conceived, developed, implemented and sought "legal" cover for a policy of torture. Not Pelosi.

Cheney's request was denied because the information is locked from further release pending the Court cases.

The right wingers are doing their level bests to deflect attention away from Dubya and Cheney and using Pelosi to do it. They don't want to face the fact that they supported this Morally Ethically Criminally Corrupt Administration. Hell even OohRah has done it and that's shocking.

Larry

"No, we're not talking about Pelosi. Only you are,..."

Not true, Yav...look around. Even Jon Stewart is bashing her. Have you seen what Panetta (another democrat) is saying. That's OK, Yav...stick to your good ol' partisan bullshit. Watch the Stewart video, Yav. I know it might be painful...but it IS informative.

Why should this useless piece of shit be able to request anything from the CIA ?

"the Dems have made a cottage industry out of opposing "torture." "And yet, they knew all along and didn't speak up."

Somebody else with a deeper knowledge please step in here...but the few Congressional Dems that were briefed were sworn to strict secrecy for National security reasons, right? My understanding is that any disclosure by Pelosi was restricted by law. And you just know that Cheney and his CIA lied through their teeth and told 1/4 truths.

But I love how W's admin is now not responsible for torture /war crimes because a few Dems were briefed. Right wing thugs grasping at straws.

Tony Snow is looking up from hell and smiling at the level of finesse and deflection that is going on in this pure spin play!

And how much additional "damage" to America's reputation ensued since the light of day wasn't brought to this heinous act at the outset?
~Oo

Well what was it Oo a heinous act or just normal interrogation?

For a guy who has supposedly such respect for tradition where in history did you find support for water boarding torture?

Lastly when are you going to stop hiding behind one dem skirt?

Bod Graham has already proved that briefings were "documented" which never occurred.Besides, since their position is that they were not torturing how can they say they briefed anyone on the fact that they were using torture. Enhanced interrogation techniques. What a sick joke. What specific technique was "enhanced"? Maybe snowboarding was enhanced to waterboarding?

Of course we don't want to mention that it is the Bush Administration's amendment to Executive Order 12958 that precludes releasing these documents.

#2 | Posted by SanAntonioRogue

okay you have a point here.....ouch..that hurt coming out of my fingers.....

so are you saying that all of you who scremed and hollared at this were also full of shit because one side has to be right and the other wrong, dont you think..

the problem of course with your point is that bush would not have released the original memos and that..to me...trumps your point.
release the ones that make you look good and keep the ones that make you look bad...thats okay for us here but DONT FORGET All of the horse shit about transparancy
OR ARE you saying that obama is just like bush....(hee hee).......

the problem of course with your point is that bush would not have released the original memos and that..to me...trumps your point.

as in.,...If as you say the bush order keeps THESE from being released...why didnt that apply to the other ones?

release the ones that make you look good and keep the ones that make you look bad...thats okay for us here but DONT FORGET All of the horse shit about transparancy

Release everything, are you supporting that position?

That is abuse torture pictures done under the flag of the Bush Administration, with Bush's knowledge, which Bush lied about.

For you to continue to assign to me the view that I'm giving W a pass on torture is disingenuous...
~Oo

Ok lets make it real simple and straight forward.

The real issue above all is the question of is water boarding torture .

As I asked before where can you find in history anything but water boarding being branded as torture?

We have seen a plethora of historic examples of it being concisely branded as torture.

Aside from you and "many Reps" do you have ANY civilized historic argument?

Since you bring up Christian values, who would Christ water board.

Simply calling something torture doesn't necessarily make it so, legally or otherwise.

Hmm I'm sure you have a source for the legality of water boarding.

Any, even one historic one...

JUST ONE

americans who say things such as "i don't view waterboarding as legally defined torture" are idiots. Their mentality would be like the germans in wwII who would say "I don't view harassing the jews to purify my country as legally-defined harrassment" just because some nazi wrote a legal memo saying it wasn't-- and we all know where that led.

my bottom line is the same as millions of others as far as IM concerned

if your family is threatend even the most "cultist' liberal will tell the cia to rip out his fingernails and kill his children if that will get your family freed.
but if we can get info without it okay...if not..then do whatever you have to....AGAIN...if it were 'personal' I have no doubt whatsoever that this sanctamonious call for bush's ass would be silent

and in the case of another attack..same thing.
so get off your highhorse for a moment......

ZAP...obama started it all off with release of memos that told "HIS" story and only a obama cultist would even THINK of having a 'truth squad' and only using info from one side.........

Lets see the Bush Administration TORTURED Prisoners of War, with the complicity of the CIA, an now with the aid of the Republican Party they are asking "WHY DIDN'T NANCY STOP US???." "WTF"

The Propaganda machine is working well after 30 Years of oiling that machine, the Republicans are attempting to divert the attention away from the Bushs Administration TORTUE, to whether Nancy Pelosi was made aware that they were indeed Torturing prisoners.

ADOLPH an the boys would be proud of the Propaganda, machine the Repubs have going for them, do everything but tell the truth.....

NEWT, NEWT, NEWT for you to criticize Pelosi for being dishonest an calling her a liar,is laughable comming from you, aren't you the Fuck that told your wife as she was dying of Cancer that you were divorcing her??? Weren't you the guy that tried to Impeach President Clinton, for a sexual tata, all the while you were SCREWING an aide in your office, while you to were still Married??? FUCK YOU NEWT GINGRICH, YOU SCUMBAG PIECE OF SHIT!!!!!!

oh yes

thank you celisay for weighing in on this issue
as usual you have spoken with your usual high level of debate and civil rhetoric.

HEY DONT YOU KNOW YOU CANT USE SO MANY CAPS WHEn you write here.........DAMN..I HATE IT WHEN SOMEONE USES ALL THOse caPS.......

and it doesnt matter what he did before, when he is right, he is right and he is the smartest man in politics today...its too bad that the things you list preclude him from running.
but you see...that behavior would be okay and probably not even known if he had that "D" after his name...

HEY CELISARY

youve got the white house
the house
the senate
and the media

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SO ANGRY AND UNHAPPY ABOUT???

no I am being serious........why are you pissed off ALL the time..........

look at me....I post TRUTHFULL AND HARD HITTING journalistic, objestive post with links and sparkling AND UNIQUE writing style....(okay maybe a little over the top)...but come on bud

RELAX a little ............

I'd think any american would be angry that their government has no integrity and has dragged its reputation down into the shitter. it culminated on Bush and cheney's watch but the democrats in the congress were complicit as well.

anyone who is angry or or satisfied solely based on partisan reasons is a moron.

when the rightwing pit bull ask for docuements from the cia and they refuse it is still bushs fault says the left-there is a lot of things maybe the cia did that no-one approved
jasman

Hey Dick,

Fuck You.

Sincerely,

The CIA.

jimmy

to be completely FAIR AND BALANCED let me help you

hey dick

fuck you

sincerely
the obama white house who doesnt want the truth to get in the way of our agenda because we have a lot more people to FUCK OVER with health care and the DEBT.

"when the rightwing pit bull ask for docuements from the cia and they refuse it is still bushs fault says the left"

Then you have the questions: IF it's clearly torture, then why was the Bush admin so adamant it was legal? It's not like they denied ever doing it. Methinks there are gray area here...

~Oo

If I didn't know better I'd swear you were being evasive..

One Historic Legal Precedent, Just ONE?

White House denies Cheney endorsed 'water boarding'

Updated 10/28/2006

What we apparently do know, though, is that one of the chief "torture" protesters sat on her manicured fingers

LOL

"manicured fingers"

I would think you would be more interested in her skirt.

You know the one you're hiding behind.

"AFKABL2".....I am angry because of what your REPUBLICAN PARTY, has done to this Country, I have traveled all over the World an the World does not like us much anymore. The respect this country had through out the World is GONE. This more than anything make Americans less safe as they travel. The Bush Administration used the CIA as an arm of the Republican Party an by making themselves available to the White House, they have made themselves a disgrace through out the World. I will bet my life that when the story is finally told the CIA would have been proven to have lied to Ms. Pelosi or at least never told her the whole truth...The CIA has a History of deceiving not only the Congress but the Presidency as well....Google the CIA, learn something.......

Good. Cheney was no official power in any WAY.

HEY DICK, You can wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which get's filled first.

I also realize that despite how misguided I feel Dubya and the Reps were in areas of spending, immigration, etc, I also feel the Dems would be worse.

#38 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

So, you're going to table your anger at BushCo because, theoretically, it may have been worse under the Dems?

GREAT LOGIC!

it's funnie bush didn't classify all info concernin interogations also funnie that obama can't order them declasafided----this whole thing stinks of politics -put all the info out there and let's see what was said done and not done
jasman

COM-
If your point was about tabling my anger at Bush for waterboarding, I am not of the mind it was illegal.

#43 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Unbelievable simply unbelievable. When You tyake into account we have prosecuted people for waterboarding all the way back since the Spanish American War. Now tell Me it's Legal??

was spanish inquistion a form of torture ~ Oorah?

Here's a new updated torture device for ya all:>)

(i'm using it right now while typing ~ can't ya tell!)

If waterboarding is illegal - a crime - then the burden of proof lies with those claiming it to be illegal. Maybe you have that proof, but I doubt whether you or I have that proof at our fingertips. This is a murky mess from a legal standpoint - a likely gray area. Obviously you have two sides interpreting the existing law in differing ways.

There is clearly room for disagreement here. Your pejorative responses - when there's no legal decree to support the specifics in this case - doesn't put you on solid ground any more than it puts me on solid ground.

Yet the question remains... if waterboarding is torture and Pelosi knew about it early on and chose not to object... what does that tell you about her or her leadership? It's a question I've posed numerous times but one which no lib can bring themselves to answer fully.

I'll tell you, if I was of your mind and the party I backed was of similar mind... I'd be pissed they sat on their hands. I've voiced my displeasure at several areas where I've felt Dubya was wrong. I also realize that despite how misguided I feel Dubya and the Reps were in areas of spending, immigration, etc, I also feel the Dems would be worse.

#38 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Are You willfully fucking ignorant because You can't face the truth about YHour support for Torture or are You that Dumb OohRah?? I don't think You are Dumb at all but You need to b elieve that Waterboarding is not torture because You support it and by Your support of it makes You dirty. Oh and it's always been Illegal OohRah or are You deliberately being intellectually dishonest??

b>After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

If waterboarding is illegal - a crime - then the burden of proof lies with those claiming it to be illegal. Maybe you have that proof, but I doubt whether you or I have that proof at our fingertips. This is a murky mess from a legal standpoint - a likely gray area. Obviously you have two sides interpreting the existing law in differing ways.

"I doubt whether you or I have that proof at our fingertips"

And now on yours...

Waterboarding = torture is one of those instances. Perhaps in the future waterboarding will specifically be categorized as torture. If/when that occurs, then yes... any administration authorizing it would be in violation.

#19 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 11:40 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

You are being willfully lying through Your teeth here OohRah and I find that disgusting to say the very least. Not to mention the Intellectual dishonesty that You have shown on this very issue. Waterboarding has always been torture ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS Do You not get that yet OohRah. I can not believe a well educated Man such as Yourself can't grasp the truth of the matter.

Here is some more:

In the United States, waterboarding has long been considered illegal or a violation of military rules of conduct. The earliest known case of a prosecution for waterboarding occurred in 1901 when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years in prison for waterboarding a Filipino guerrilla insurgent during the Philippine-American War.

In 1994 the United States ratified the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT). When this international treaty was ratified, its provisions became U.S. law. The convention defined torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person."

That's called precedent Oo I have it and you don't even come close...

What a surprise, Cheney lied for a reason to start a war. And guess what? Nobody is going to do a damned thing about it. Cheney/Bush or Bush/Cheney both ways they lied and the result is thousands of US dead and truthfully concerning Iraqi'a and others, nobody really has a clue. And nobody is going to spend 1 day in jail. A lying P and Vp 2 wars and nothing will happen.

Why won't the Obamaman do anything? Such a dangerous precedent that could mean that any current or future leaders might be held accountable. We can't have enforced honesty in the WH can we?

article.nationalreview.com

Waterboarding = torture is not decided. Read the article if you wish. For you to act as judge and jury - what you appear to be doing - doesn't make you correct.

If it's truly so bad... and Pelosi would agree with you - then why wouldn't she have made her intentions known when confronted with CIA info on it?

#53 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 09:55 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

How sad is it that a once respected Man such as Yourself denies presedent. It's unbelievable OohRah. It really is.

Larry

For you to act as judge and jury

LOL

I'm showing HISTORIC Precedent you give me OPINION..

Oo you're still hiding behind a skirt.

For you to act as judge and jury - what you appear to be doing - doesn't make you correct.

If it's truly so bad... and Pelosi would agree with you - then why wouldn't she have made her intentions known when confronted with CIA info on it?

Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 09:55 PM | Reply

It's not that I am acting as Judge and Jury. I don't have to OohRah. I have the Judges of American Jurisprudence on My side. All you have is a right winged screed and balderdash. Oh and nice sticking to the Right Winged talking point IE Nancy Pelosi. Funny how the Right Wingers declare they are real Men and the Party of Responsibility but when cornered they hide behind a Woman's skirt(Thanks Zap) Doubly funny dat be.

Larry

I'm telling you this isn't an open and shut case. The law is NOT clear as to whether, specifically, waterboarding is torture as defined by law. So while it may be nasty it may not be illegal.

Hiding behind a skirt? Why should I? I don't see it as torture. You and your side do... so why aren't you pissed she sat on her hands when this info came out? Obfuscate and deflect all you want - it doesn't alter what went on. If she felt it was so bad she should have done/said something, but she chose not to. You'd have to ask her as to her rationale.

In time, laws may be written to prohibit waterboarding as it was evidently practiced under Dubya. I agree it's probably as close to the line as one can get... yet the line is drawn somewhere... just as it is in any number of other criminal offenses.

#56 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 10:15 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Unbelievably sad that You deny the truth OohRah. Unbelievably sad.

Larry

RCADE is either gonna kill Me or something but here goes yet again.
IF You suspend Me RCADE I will understand but this needs repeating for OohRah

I'm telling you this isn't an open and shut case. The law is NOT clear as to whether, specifically, waterboarding is torture as defined by law. So while it may be nasty it may not be illegal.

Find one case, just one case where water boarding has been tried and excused.

Oo you can't do it. It has never happened. Your opinion piece sights no examples.

Your opinion piece '07 doesn't even accept that water boarding actually happened stating "(assuming it has been practiced)".

Hiding behind a skirt? Why should I?

Because with some warped bit of logic you feel if she didn't open her mouth torture was justified, I suppose...

You have so lost this to Precedent Oo it's a patricians fools game to continue..

During various wars, waterboarding was declared torture. Why isn't it now? Both the Japanese and the Chinese were roundly condemned for the form of questioning. We and others called it torture. So if we do it it isn't suddenly?

COM-
In areas of spending and immigration, yes. Dems have shown in roughly 100 short days they're willing to blow the deficit sky high.

I have zero reason to believe Dems would be more supportive of things I support. Things like lower taxation, smaller government, strong national defense (including defense spending), upholding existing immigration laws, etc.

And so, while Dubya's not been 100% on those issues, he's a good bit closer than anything Obama or the Dems would offer as an alternative. And to carry this point further, the fact Dubya and the Reps were wishy-washy on those issues is a big reason why Reps were tossed out of power. People like me are fed up with Reps governing as "Dem lite" so enough of us either sat out or voted Dem to cast them out.

#42 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-16 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Immigration?

Can you tell me how Bush did anything to curb the flow? While you're at it, please point exactly what Obama has done to increase it?

Immigration?

Can you tell me how Bush did anything to curb the flow? While you're at it, please point exactly what Obama has done to increase it?

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2009-05-17 05:04 AM | Reply

What OohRah won't say is the truth of the matter that NEITHER Party Democrats NOR Republicans want to do anything about immigration. That's where their big money donors get their cheap labour from.

Larry

Reps governing as "Dem lite"

???

God forbid that anyone ever all them "Rep lite"

LAR & ZAP -
Not sure how waterboarding = torture will play out in the courts or in future legislation dealing specifically with it.

I can say this... if there is any legal gray area, I will support us doing whatever we can within it to protect our folks.

Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-17 06:40 AM | Reply

It has been through the Courts SEVERAL TIMES and each and every time it was declared torture. I have shown You this much yet You continually refuse to see it nor acknowledge it. I wonder why.

Larry

What are you doing up so early - or haven't you been to sleep yet?

Posted by OohRah at 2009-05-17 06:46 AM | Reply

I go in spurts. I get maybe 2 hours here and a few there. It's hard to get the ole stomach settled.

Larry

Zelikow Sums It Up

By DAPHNE EVIATAR 5/13/09 1:13 PM
During this morning's Senate Judiciary subcommittee hearing on torture, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) who chaired the hearing, asked Philip Zelikow, the former state department adviser, about the reaction he received when he objected to the interrogation techniques approved by the Office of Legal Counsel. Whitehouse noted that "lawyers love to debate. It's our nature to quarrel with other and exchange views." So how did the Justice Department lawyers respond to Zelikow's arguments?
"The arguments I was making were pretty profound," answered Zelikow. "Because if I was right, their whole interpretation of the CID standard [the standard for "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment," forbidden by the Convention Against Torture and by the U.S. Constitution] was fundamentally unsound."
So they had "a few options," Zelikow said. One is, "let's take another look at this" and see if there's any validity to the different opinion, or, "they could say, Zelikow, this shows how rusty you are in practicing law. We need to tell you why you've misunderstood this area of the law."

But in fact, said Zelikow, "they didn't do any of those things." They chose a third option. "They just said, we don't want to talk about it.'"

And it's that third option intentionally burying your head in the sand that demonstrates bad faith and an intent to ignore the relevant law, as the legal ethics expert David Luban testified.

Reps governing as "Dem lite"
???
God forbid that anyone ever all them "Rep lite"

#66 | POSTED BY TWINPAC

Funny, Newsworthy, Funny, Newsworthy....

News Flash: Taliban Waterboards Captured U.S. Soldiers--Claims "Not Torture"

According to reports out of Kabul, the Taliban announced that they have waterboarded three U.S. soldiers taken prisoner. The Taliban commander asserted that waterboarding is not torture and does not violate the Geneva Convention or U.S. law. He assured everyone that a medical officer monitored all waterboarding sessions to insure that no permanent damage was done to the soldiers. In addition, he said they were careful to follow the directions on waterboarding in a SERE training manual they found posted on the internet.

In support of his assertion that waterboarding is not torture, the Taliban commander cited legal analysis produced by the Office of Legal Counsel of the U.S. Department of Justice. He pointed out that the authors of this legal analysis are a respected federal judge on the second highest court in America and a professor at a top American law school. The Taliban commander also referred to the careful legal analysis of a Distinguished Professor of Law who concluded that waterboarding is not torture because U.S. trainers did it to their own troops "hundreds and hundreds of times."

"CIA denies request on interrogations":

WHAT IS FLOP EARS AFRAID OF? THE TRUTH!

He must be getting advice from Nancy (THE LIER) Polosi!