It is one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek. In the end Picard is set free and defiantly answers his interrogator one final time by stating there are four lights.

After he rejoins his crew he admits that he reached his breaking point and had he not been freed at that moment he would have told them anything they wanted to hear even though he did not have the information they were looking for.

What about that episode of Voyager where the captain sticks that crewman in a cargo bay and threatens to let a bunch of pissed off interdimensional aliens have their way with him?

Or does Voyager just suck so bad that it doesn't apply? 7 of 9 had the only two interesting bits of that entire series...

It is one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek. In the end Picard is set free and defiantly answers his interrogator one final time by stating there are four lights.

~JH

Agreed. Good stuff. 1984 with a happy ending.

7 of 9 had the only two interesting bits of that entire series...

~ZH

Torture: Being forced to watch Star Trek V.

Toture apologists already have their assorted "ticking time bomb" scenarios justifying torture from various other sources they certainly don't need any more from a progressive franchise like ST.

24 is all they need, really. Jack Bauer is a more effective peddler of "tortured logic" than any Republican could hope to be. The right doesn't need to whip its Dick out to make arguments for torture... all it needs to do is make sure Fox has another season of 24 (and Sutherland stays out of jail!)

Spud's problem with the scene is that in it "torture worked".

Spud's afraid that that might be the message too many weak minded people might take away from that scene.

Spud,

Why do you think torture has been used for thousands of years? Because it doesn't work?

The problem is that it DOES work. Maybe not every time, but enough times that it continues to be used as an option. It's success also depends on the goal, as well as the individual. However to say that it doesn't work is disingenuous.

BTW... I also liked this episode. However, despite the parallels between the episode and our current torture vs. "enhanced interrogation" debates I would caution against using a sci-fi episode as a model for reality. In other words, don't treat it like it is anything other than fiction.

Not saying Torture doesn't ever work in terms of extracting information just that it's morally reprehensible

Ok... strike the "disingenuous" part from my last comment to you. I really should read your whole post before replying. Still there are others that HAVE said it doesn't work, so I will leave it for them.

That being said, you want to dismiss the ticking time bomb scenario, and while I think the name is melodramatic and a bit misleading, you do nothing to suggest it is a false situation.

The fact is, we were dealing with people that weren't going after military targets... they were going after civilians on our own soil. We had (and still have) every reason to believe they can and will do more, killing not just men and women, but even children.

If I thought that someone had information that would keep my kids from being killed, I certainly wouldn't shrink from dumping a milk jug of water over his head to get the info. Sorry, but I believe that what they are doing is WORSE than what you are calling torture, and many of their intended targets are much more innocent than they are.

WORSE than what you are calling torture,

Get with the program.... waterboarding IS torture.

So now torture works?

For what? Not for getting actionable intelligence. To believe that, you have to believe Cheney. Cheney who can't keep his mouth from flapping, but hasn't yet offered any evidence. Cheney who, when not lying, was never right about a thing.

The ticking time bomb scenario again? Really?

All the terrorist has to do in that scenario is throw out a couple of false leads and the bomb goes off. Terrorist wins.

But now we are asked to accept the proposition that attacks were stopped, because we tortured, so torture is now good. The right-wing meme to justify torture, throw out the law, disregard our own morality - all from the same "party" that constantly warns about that slippery slope.

Sometimes hypocrisy is amusing. In this case it's vile.

"Why do you think torture has been used for thousands of years? Because it doesn't work?"

Because some people are sadistic bastards?

"Because some people are sadistic bastards?"

Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-05-13 08:07 AM

Nothing better than a lashing and keelhauling before dinner.

~The beatings will continue until morale improves.

"torture works?"

Gives me a woodie.
~Torquemada

Several answers here so I will just lump my responses together on the same post:

Get with the program.... waterboarding IS torture.

In your opinion. Other have expressed a different opinion. Just because you believe it is, doesn't make it fact.

So now torture works?

For what? Not for getting actionable intelligence.

And you know this... how? Just because you don't want to believe otherwise?

To believe that, you have to believe Cheney.

So... because you don't want to believe Cheney, then it MUST be wrong? There's some logic for you. /snark

Cheney who can't keep his mouth from flapping, but hasn't yet offered any evidence.

He has suggested that other documents be declassified that would show this. That is offering evidence. It is up to the Obama admin now to comply. Of course you know they won't, because it isn't in their interest to do so.

Or maybe the documents don't exist... but then if that was the case, then Obama would just come out and say that so the matter could be put to rest and to shut Cheney up. He hasn't done that either.

Because some people are sadistic bastards?

I am sure that sometimes that was the case. However you would have to be an idiot to think that was always the case.

#9 | Posted by YAV at 2009-05-13 08:04 AM | Reply

The argument that torture works cannot simply be dismissed. During World War II, for example, the Gestapo used torture with considerable effectiveness on captured agents working for Britain's Special Operations Executive, the top-secret organization dedicated to sabotage and subversion behind Axis lines. A number of agents, unable to withstand the pain or, in some cases, even the prospect of pain, told their captors everything they knew, including the identity of other agents, the arrival time of flights, and the location of safe houses. During France's brutal war in Algeria, the colonial power used torture effectively. As historian Alistair Horne, the author of the classic analysis of the French-Algerian war, "A Savage War of Peace," told me in a 2007 interview, "In Algeria, the French used torture -- as opposed to abuse -- very effectively as an instrument of war. They had some success with it; they did undoubtedly get some intelligence from the use of torture." That intelligence included information about future terrorist strikes and the infrastructure of terror networks in Algiers.

In your opinion. Other have expressed a different opinion. Just because you believe it is, doesn't make it fact.

So now torture works?

For what? Not for getting actionable intelligence.

And you know this... how? Just because you don't want to believe otherwise?

To believe that, you have to believe Cheney.

So... because you don't want to believe Cheney, then it MUST be wrong? There's some logic for you. /snark

Cheney who can't keep his mouth from flapping, but hasn't yet offered any evidence.

He has suggested that other documents be declassified that would show this. That is offering evidence. It is up to the Obama admin now to comply. Of course you know they won't, because it isn't in their interest to do so.

Or maybe the documents don't exist... but then if that was the case, then Obama would just come out and say that so the matter could be put to rest and to shut Cheney up. He hasn't done that either.

Because some people are sadistic bastards?

I am sure that sometimes that was the case. However you would have to be an idiot to think that was always the case.

Posted by moomanfl at 2009-05-13 10:13 AM | Reply

Itr is fucking fact You ignorant ass. Waterboarding IS torture. has always been torture. It's funny how You shitstains on the Right are doing their level best to justifying their Country and Torture. Ewspecially when we have prosecuted our own for torture before Dubya got into the WhiteHouse and Sanctioned it and Ordered it.

Why do you think torture has been used for thousands of years? Because it doesn't work?

The problem is that it DOES work. Maybe not every time, but enough times that it continues to be used as an option. It's success also depends on the goal, as well as the individual. However to say that it doesn't work is disingenuous.

BTW... I also liked this episode. However, despite the parallels between the episode and our current torture vs. "enhanced interrogation" debates I would caution against using a sci-fi episode as a model for reality. In other words, don't treat it like it is anything other than fiction.

#6 | Posted by moomanfl at 2009-05-13 06:11 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Unmitigated Bullshit.

Larry

Larry,

No matter how much you scream and foam at the mouth, it doesn't change the fact that it is only your OPINION that waterboarding is torture.

I suppose it really depends on what definition of torture you are using.

"it doesn't change the fact that it is only your OPINION that waterboarding is torture."

Well yeah, it's only Larry's opinion, and the opinion of the US government in the Spanish-American war when Major Edwin Glenn was suspended from command for using torture to attempt to gain a confession. The country must have held the same opinion after WWII when we connvicted Japanese torturers for the same practice. And yet again in Vietnam when a US Soldier shown water boarding a N. Vietnamese soldier was court marshaled. Then there was 1983 when 4 Texas police officers were convicted for using the technique on prisoners.

So actually, no, it's not just Larry's opinion. It is legal precedent that has been well established for more than a century.

Obviously Moomanfla doesn't know what the fuck He is talking about. Bwhahahahahahahaha Too fucking funny.

Larry

"Not saying Torture doesn't ever work in terms of extracting information just that it's morally reprehensible, arguably wildy counter-productive and ultimately a remarkably ineffective stragegy overall. Historically the only real remotely effective use for torture has been to allow a ruthless police state to violently and viciously repress it's own citizenry for a time.

Even then it's always evil and only for a time.

Do. Not. Want.
Be Well.

#3 | Posted by dethspud"

Canadian government defends intelligence extracted through torture

The Canadian government told a public inquiry last week that barring Canadian security forces from acting on information obtained through torture would place Canadian lives at unwarranted risk.

Former and current high-level Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) officials have previously told the inquiry looking into Canadian government involvement in the ordeal of Maher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian who was imprisoned and tortured in Syria with the complicity of US and Canadian authorities, that CSIS will use information it believes was obtained through torture. But it has concerns about torture-generated intelligence, since people frequently make false confessions to escape further abuse.

In its final brief to the Arar inquiry, the federal government mounted a vigorous defence of current CSIS practice, while arguing that the Canadian state bears no responsibility for the human rights abuses that Arar suffered.

"CSIS will take information from all sources," declared the federal brief. "If information it suspects has been obtained by torture can be independently corroborated and is important to an investigation of a threat to Canada, the information would be used."
*********

I wonder why Spud fixates on the USA and doesn't work on cleaning his own house?

"The Canadian government is moving in the opposite direction, however: toward legitimizing torture, increasing the power of the state and restricting basic civil liberties."

Because he's been sucked in over the last few years and gets more angry and unhappy by the hour.

(Based on his posts, which become less informative & humorous and more angry and nit-picky.)

People blind with rage often can't see much of anything.

"The Canadian government is moving in the opposite direction, however: toward legitimizing torture, increasing the power of the state and restricting basic civil liberties."

Ask Mark Steyn...

The problem is that it DOES work. Maybe not every time, but enough times that it continues to be used as an option. It's success also depends on the goal, as well as the individual. However to say that it doesn't work is disingenuous.

BTW... I also liked this episode. However, despite the parallels between the episode and our current torture vs. "enhanced interrogation" debates I would caution against using a sci-fi episode as a model for reality. In other words, don't treat it like it is anything other than fiction.

#6 | Posted by moomanfl at 2009-05-13 06:11 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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HORSESHIT

Of course torture works. Does that make it right? No way.

Take for instance slavery. Without slaves no pyramids, no great wall, no temples, no cathedrals, no plantations, no nothing. We could just about wipe out the entire Chinese, Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian civilizations: the essential foundations of modern mankind. Yet slavery, after 4000 years of outstanding success, was finally rightfully abolished (although glimpses still exist).

Other practices with magnificent results: conquests, genocides, colonialism, human sacrifices, religious crusades, etc..

Judging by some of the posts, mankind may not have evolved far enough yet.

Crisis

how many children would you have raped to keep your family safe?

"how many children would you have raped to keep your family safe?" Posted by truthhurts

Are you addressing me? If so, I'm really clued out.

Crisis

Star Trek and Torture: The link may be that the new teenybopper Star Trek is torture at least near water-boarding. The old Star Treks had CONTENT, from half-black, half-white guys hating each other across the universe to Kirk and Spock saving whales in San Francisco to the Borg collective as a metaphor for nasty reds from which Jeri Ryan was saved. This latest is pure special effects, long on zapping, short on meaning; it gave me a hell of a headache. Torture! herm

Yeah, it was entertaining, but not what I expect from Trek.

If torture really works how come we have not won the war against Al Qaeda yet?

After all the waterboarding that has been documented we should have been able to capture/kill all the leaders and top generals.

We should know the locations and supply routes they use, who supplies them with money AND where bin laden is.

We should know everything about this organization after seven years of torture.

But as you say "Torture works."

#31 | Posted by donnerboy

But.....but.....Maddow's a lesbian!

-Rtards

Why do you think torture has been used for thousands of years? Because it doesn't work?

Maybe...just maybe...because there are a lot of sick fucks out there?

Especially when whipped into some jingoist and/or religious frenzy, tempered by groupthink, and topped off with the devaluation of the boogeyman that is "the Other"?

The general scenario I just outlined has repeated itself in many forms throughout the world and human history.

It is ok for a foreigner to be shown performing torture. A Romulan isn't even a human much less one of the "Guys in the White Hats". It should also be equally certain that the reverse is doable. Who gives a damn just what the Romulans like or don't like? Screw them!