There's a lot of interesting stuff in this article, but here's one of the passages that struck me:

Pakistan... is at a turning point. It is in danger of being strangled by Islamic extremism, and the big question is: What will it take for its people and its government to shake off the confusion and stand up to the militants?

Manan Ahmed, a University of Chicago historian, says such an effort would require a fundamental rethinking of Pakistan's identity. Pakistan, he argues in his blog, Chapati Mystery, never defined what it meant to be a Muslim state. Is it Saudi Arabia? Is it Turkey?

A friend doing some work on Turkish politics was talking the other day about a divide along the Ataturk-Islam dimension. He corrected me when I interpreted this as secularism v. theocracy. He told a story about driving through an Islamic stronghold, seeing teenage girls with headscarves and mini-skirts, and being the only one in the car who saw this as contradictory. Similarly, he pointed out that many who lean Islamic (v. Ataturk) were heavy drinkers.

Most of us have some sense of a "Jewishness" Seinfeld has that has little to do with religious commitments. I wonder if we misinterpret support for Islamic parties, e.g., by overemphasizing the importance of religiosity to Islamic identification.

I'm honestly asking -- I have no idea. Just curious.

Pakistan is fast becoming America's worst nightmare, a nightmare made in Washington.

Pakistan is fast becoming America's worst nightmare -- #2 | Posted by Ray

Why do you say this? I haven't seen anything indicating that the military has less control over the nukes than it did a couple years ago, or that they're any less professional/responsible than they were then. And in the interim, as Tosser has pointed out, the extreme Islamic parties took a drubbing in the national elections. (Although I'm not sure how to interpret that.)

Again, I'm honestly asking. There seems to be more alarm in the U.S. over Pakistan, but I've been assuming that's because more than a handful of Americans are aware of its existence now.

I have no certain information. I'm projecting the buildup of events since Bush invaded Afghanistan.

Anti-US sentiment is strong.
Pakistan government is perceived to be a US puppet.
Pakistan is another hodge podge of factions like Iraq.
US drones killing Pakistanis heightening tensions.
Taliban growing stronger, controls region between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Obama gives reassurance everything is under control while devoting more military resources to the region.
US foreign policy geared towards increasing intervention after the previous intervention failed.
Pakistan has nukes with increasing potential to fall into Muslim hands.
Neither side is capable of backing off.

"But those North Koreans, they're our best pals"

-GW Bush

The best hash used to come from there. That's the real Pakistan. Oh yeah, good rugs too.

The best hash used to come from there

The Pakistanis made some nice product but fer Spud's money the Black Afghani in the 2 pounds bricks with the gold stamp on 'em were the best.

Well, next to that Nepalese Temple stuff with the opium.

*ahem*

...or so Spud's heard.

Be Well.

I was always partial to the blonde Lebanese.....

I got my opium from the Thai sticks...

blonde Lebanese.....

Good stuff. Liked the red too.

I got my opium from the Thai sticks...

Luffed the Thai sticks.

Before we figured out how "grow yer own stone" locally that shiat was teh bomb diggitty.

Be Well.

To attempt to be serious: the problem is that Pakistan is the creation of a post-Colonial political settlement made more than 60 years ago, not unlike the creation of "Iraq" as a "temporary solution", by largely the British, in an era so unlike that of today. Nobody is happy. The Pakistanis and the Indians hate and mistrust each other, both have been allowed and sometimes encouraged to become nuclear powers. Etc.

We need to examine why decisions taken so long ago are held up as "permanent" or "correct" when thay are not. The Middle East is embroiled by the same kind of "solutions" imposed from outside and almost always by "the West".

Time for a whole new and enlightened approach.

not unlike the creation of "Iraq" as a "temporary solution", by largely the British,

It's not like we gave them a choice.

The British did not create Pakistan... we took it from them.

But while leaving, they deliberately created the mess in Kashmir so that India and Pakistan keep fighting and Britain retain some influence.

So which is the real Pakistan?

Whatever it is, the New York Times will be the last to figure it out. LOL

This article is over-analyzing everything and running itself into circles.

And in the interim, as Tosser has pointed out, the extreme Islamic parties took a drubbing in the national elections. (Although I'm not sure how to interpret that.)

Not just the "extreme parties". The main-stream "soft" Islamic parties also went to Hell.

None have any people in any position of power.

In all of Pakistan's history, Islamic parties have NEVER been able to take more than 13% of the vote.

So you can interpret it like as soon as Mushi left, there was a "correction" in the electorate and we had a "re-boot". The Islamic parties lost, like they always do.

There seems to be more alarm in the U.S. over Pakistan

That is because America just got info (we leaked it to them) that Pakistan has reached and crossed a few thresholds in weapons (nuclear and non-nuclear) that we were not supposed to have done for the next 50 years.

Americans think everyone is stupid (except themselves of course). And they don't like people who can start WW3 on their own.

That is why all the alarm.

Most of it is fake alarm.

Most of us have some sense of a "Jewishness" Seinfeld has that has little to do with religious commitments. I wonder if we misinterpret support for Islamic parties, e.g., by overemphasizing the importance of religiosity to Islamic identification.

Something like that.

And yes, all Turks drink. They see nothing un-Islamic about it.

Most of it is fake alarm.

#15 | Posted by Tosser

Fake alarm? With the Pakis having nukes there is adaquate reason for alarm. Both they and India still have one foot in later stone age. Yet they both posses nukes. WWIII is a real possibility with this kind of people having WMDs.

Anti-US sentiment is strong.

And getting stronger.

Which is a good thing.

Pakistan government is perceived to be a US puppet.

This is why Mushi was thrown out.

Nobody trusts the current President either. People are placing bets on how long this cockroach is going to last.

Pakistan is another hodge podge of factions like Iraq.

LOL... no, not really. It just looks that way.

US drones killing Pakistanis heightening tensions.

We like to say that, but fact is, mostly Afghans (who came to Pakistan) are killed by these drones.

The Predator may be American (for now) but Pakistan does the targeting. (I have explained this in detail before)

Taliban growing stronger, controls region between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Taliban are getting weaker but more daring out of desperation.

Either they have reached the point where they can't replenish their loss of men.... or they are going to reach that point in the near future.

Pakistan has nukes with increasing potential to fall into Muslim hands.

Absolute NONSENSE.

With the Pakis having nukes there is adaquate reason for alarm. Both they and India still have one foot in later stone age. Yet they both posses nukes. WWIII is a real possibility with this kind of people having WMDs.

Hey everyone! I keep saying I know America better than Americans know America.

Did you see this post?

EXACTLY what I just said how American think.

1. Nobody else should have nukes.

2. Everyone else is stupid. They have to be because they ain't American.

Fake alarm, like I said.

Both they and India still have one foot in later stone age.

Being poor is not a crime.

Being a mental-patient (as China recently called America), should be a crime.

Pakistan has nukes with increasing potential to fall into Muslim hands.

I got news for you, bub. Pakistan's nuke ARE in Muslim hands. hahahahahahahahahahaha

"I have no certain information. I'm projecting the buildup of events since Bush invaded Afghanistan."

I don't think invading Afghanistan was the problem. We had to invade. They attacked us over and over until they got our attention and forced us to do something about it. I would argue that its impossible for Pakistanis to hate us for defending ourselves. If they are so biased against us that they have a problem with us defending ourselves after we're attacked, then they hated us already.

I will say that turning what should have been a punitive military expedition into a "spreading democracy" clusterfuck and undermining the whole deal by shifting focus to Iraq has made things much worse than they needed to be and has undoubtedly strengthened the Taliban in Pakistan. So Pakistanis have a right to be angry at us for botching the operation (although since they had a stake in this as well, they could have been more helpful from the beginning too).

But to the extent that Pakistanis have a problem with us being there at all: Fuck them.

But to the extent that Pakistanis have a problem with us being there at all: Fuck them.

We did not have a problem with you going into Afghanistan THEN.

But you don't seem to be getting anywhere ... not winning .... and are only causing trouble for us.

So we have a problem NOW.

And fuck you. LOL

All wars have a time limit or shelf-life. Then they expire.

This one is past it's expiry date. And yet you muddle on.

Tosser - What you said and what I said are actually pretty much the same thing. Since we botched the job by undermining it with Iraq and confusing the mission with this democracy nonsense, Pakistanis have a right to be upset now because it causes problems for them.

But to the extent that there are Pakistanis who think we had no rigth to be there ever (even if I'm talking about a minority), we can't care about them. Their position is that their Al Queda and Taliban buddies should have been allowed to murder us with impunity. We'd have to be idiots to care what such people think.

But to the extent that there are Pakistanis who think we had no rigth to be there ever (even if I'm talking about a minority)

I don't know any such people and neither do you.

Pakistan seems to be on the verge of realizing that the Taliban and al Qaeda are more of an immediate threat to them than India, with the military allowing some troops to move away from the border.

The current government seems to have little influence with the military, though, and America has to be careful who we make deals with there.

Their position is that their Al Queda and Taliban buddies should have been allowed to murder us with impunity.

There are no such people here.

There ARE people here however who think 9-11 was faked. But you have such folk in America as well.

But if 9-11 was real... we believe in the right of self-defense, no problem. I don't know anyone who doesn't.

The current government seems to have little influence with the military

Almost nil.

The current Govt. is useless and the military knows it. They will obey orders, of course, but will also not wait (after a certain limit) for orders that come too late.

Pakistan seems to be on the verge of realizing that the Taliban and al Qaeda are more of an immediate threat to them than India

India is long term, strategic threat. Taliban are short term.

Different classifications with minimum overlap of resources needed.

Obama, from what he said the other day, knows they are useless also, and also will not wait long to take action if the military there does not.

I posted this in another thread:

most of the time... in fact 99% of the time, the Pak Army does not fight against the Taliban.

The Frontier Corps does.

The Frontier Corps is a para-military militia made up of local folks, is all.

When American newspapers say, "Pakistani troops"... more often than not, they mean the Frontier Corps, not the Pak Army.

The Frontier Corps will never fight India.

We have different men for different enemies. Not much overlap.

Obama, .... will not wait long to take action if the military there does not.

You are saying Obama will send American troops across the border INTO Pakistan???

LOL... I can guarantee you THAT is something that will never happen because you will then lose all of Afghanistan in 48 hours.

"But if 9-11 was real... we believe in the right of self-defense, no problem. I don't know anyone who doesn't."

Well you don't live in one of those areas where people like the Taliban and want Sharia law either. Just because something isn't right in front of your face doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

There were people all over the world who A) Thought that Al Queda attacked us on 9/11 with help from teh Taliban and B) thought that the US shouldn't attack Afghanistan anyway. I remember seeing musicians like Graham Nash on TV spewing that nonsense. I found his position that we should just sit back an allowed others to murder us to be very offensive. Pretending that they don't exist in your country, where in some places people share the same values as our attackers, is just foolish.

There were people all over the world who A) Thought that Al Queda attacked us on 9/11 with help from teh Taliban and B) thought that the US shouldn't attack Afghanistan anyway. I remember seeing musicians like Graham Nash on TV spewing that nonsense. I found his position that we should just sit back an allowed others to murder us to be very offensive. Pretending that they don't exist in your country, where in some places people share the same values as our attackers, is just foolish.

There was no reason to invade Afghanistan. All we had to do is show them the evidence and they would have given us OBL.

-You are saying Obama will send American troops across the border INTO Pakistan???

We don't need troops. Notice that little red circle flickering about your forehead?

Notice that little red circle flickering about your forehead?

Too many movies.... too little popcorn...

Pretending that they don't exist in your country, where in some places people share the same values as our attackers, is just foolish.

I have never come across people with such beliefs, on-line or off-line.

Not one.

Which means there are more of them in America than in Pakistan... if at all.

I remember seeing musicians like Graham Nash on TV spewing that nonsense.

I have never understood these artistic/musical/actor types, feeling qualified enough to comment on current affairs or politics... subjects obviously beyond their capacity to understand.

Such people never used to have respect... they had to sing for their dinner.

Only in modern times, these sissies have become filthy rich. Take your pants on in one gratuitous sex scene and you are worth a million dollars.

Spend your days chasing after a ball and you qualify to run for Parliament.

Jump around like a monkey, bounce a ball and shoot it through a hoop and you are a millionaire.

Something is wrong with the world.

Take your pants on = Off

I hear the Pakistani government is taking applications for prime minister.

Awful.... but seems accurate. LOL

With the Pakis having nukes there is adaquate reason for alarm. Both they and India still have one foot in later stone age.--#17 | Posted by keith204

There are any number of Americans whose understanding of international affairs hasn't been helped much by indoor plumbing. Ask Rove. He played them like violins.

Awful.... but seems accurate. LOL

Uncyclopedia is the shit! They've got some really funny articles.

The current government seems to have little influence with the military -- #26 | Posted by Corky

Inconvenient for the U.S. in the short run, but not necessarily a bad thing. The current government doesn't seem to have much credibility with ordinary Pakistanis, either.

"There was no reason to invade Afghanistan. All we had to do is show them the evidence and they would have given us OBL."

LOL. They were his accomplices. They knew about the African Embassies, Khobar Towers, the Cole, etc. But if we would have given them evidence they would have acted in good faith?

I suppose you would buy a bridge from these people but what we did was the only sensible choice: We gave them one last chance to hand him over with no room for negotiations (because things had progressed way passed that point due to their actions). They chose war and got it.

We ended up politicizing the whole thing and messing it up but our initial decision to invade was 100% correct.

"There was no reason to invade Afghanistan. All we had to do is show them the evidence and they would have given us OBL."

The Taliban after realising that their troublesome guests had created a shiatstorm did try to negotiate turning over OBL and other AQ leaders in order to avoid an invasion/ occupation but Dumbya didn't want to hear about it.

Be Well.

"I have never come across people with such beliefs, on-line or off-line.

Not one.

Which means there are more of them in America than in Pakistan... if at all."

Once again you are using your own ignorance as evidence and life doesn't work that way. Just because your head is in the sand doesn't mean there is no sky.

Why is your government making deals with the head choppers to institute Sharia? Is it a coincidence that they have the same tribal background as the Afghani Taliban and call themselves Taliban as well? They want the same laws, have the same culture, give their movement the same name but don't think alike? LOL.

I wasn't even trying to argue with you on this thread because I was agreeing with most of what you were saying but now you're trying to tell me the sky is red instead of blue and I just can't agree with that.

"The Taliban after realising that their troublesome guests had created a shiatstorm did try to negotiate turning over OBL and other AQ leaders in order to avoid an invasion/ occupation but Dumbya didn't want to hear about it."

Spud, Bush is a moron and he botched the whole job in the end anyway but fair is fair: There was no room for negotiation. They attacked us and we had the means to do something about it. They were given a choice to hand him over no questions asked and thought they could delay and play games and they were wrong.

Bush is a complete idiot but even he wasn't stupid enough to fall for their delay tactics. To trust those sick fucks is just the height of gullibility. They were stalling for time and it didn't work.

Is it a coincidence that they have the same tribal background as the Afghani Taliban and call themselves Taliban as well?

These are "TTP" (the people we are shooting at), not Al-Qaeda linked Afghab-taliban.

The press started calling them all "taliban" the ones from Swat, though they are nothing of the kind. Their name is TNSM. They have been campaigning for their old Islamic legal system since before the Afghan-Russia war.. since before there were "taliban" in Afghanistan.

These are older.

Why is your government making deals with the head choppers to institute Sharia?

The Govt made a deal with the TNSM (not taliban at all) to give the people a different legal system, so that the TNSM would disarm the TTP (pakistani "taliban"... copycats of afghan taliban... actually just a known criminal gang) because the TTP could no longer use the "we are doing this to give you an Islamic system" excuse.

The process was necessary because now even the most stupid country-hillbilly there can see, the Govt. is sincere, it is the TTP that who is the deal-breaker.

Now they won't have support in the locals.

The "head-choppers" are the TTP.

We did not do any deals with the TTP.

They want the same laws, have the same culture,

No and no.

There was no room for negotiation. They attacked us and we had the means to do something about it. They were given a choice to hand him over no questions asked and thought they could delay and play games and they were wrong.

The Taliban never attacked the US.

The Taliban used to be supported by the US back during the Soviet invasion/ occupation when they were "friends" of the US in the "enemy of my enemy" sense of that word.

From AQ's perspective their attacks were actually defensive actions in retaliation for America's unrelelnting support of Israel's attacks on the Palestinians including massive foreign aid, weaponry and political cover at the UN.

The Embassies were attacked after the CIA helped round up and deliver 107 jihadists and delivered them to Egypt where many of them were tortured and imprisoned.

The Cole was in response to Clinton's bombing of training camps that killed a bunch of Bin Laden's friends and relatives.

The real reason Bush didn't want to negotiate for OBL was because the real impetus for the attack (beyond the understandable American support for retaliation after 9/11) was because of the pipeline projects that had been long on the books but politically impossible short of an invasion.

Be Well.

TNSM wants a legal system that works without lawyers.

But it will be part of the Pakistani legal system since the judges will be appointed by the Govt.... not by some idiot mulla.

That is nothing like what the Afghan Taliban did.

And the culture and language of Swat is very different than that of Afghanistan.

You would be stupid to suggest otherwise.

"The Taliban never attacked the US."

I'm sorry but no government gets to host Al Queda knowing full well what they are doing and then claim to have no part in their activities. You may think there is a distincition between the two groups but they were sister organizations fighting side by side in the same trenches (literally) for mutual benefit.

To suggest that the US should have been willfully ignorant to the Taliban's role in all this is just assinine.

"From AQ's perspective their attacks were actually defensive actions in retaliation for America's unrelelnting support of Israel's attacks on the Palestinians including massive foreign aid, weaponry and political cover at the UN."

That's one of their issues but not the only one. They actually have never lifted a finger to help the Palestinians, which should tell you something. AQ has a laundry list going back to the crusades. They once claimed Spain in on of Bin Laden's rants. They are a hate group no more legitimate than the KKK. There is no negotiating with such people.

TNSM wants a legal system that works without lawyers.

If you tried doing that here, the lawyers would start blowing up schools and chopping heads off.

Is Mehsud in hiding like bin Ladin is? Or is he the sort who pops up long enough to launch a missile at him from a drone?

**** What is the Real Pakistan? ****

........its India's outhouse..........

I think he has dodged drones 3 or 4 times.

........its India's outhouse..........

Indians don't have toilet facilities.

See the movie "SlumDog".

I think he has dodged drones 3 or 4 times.

Nice, well hopefully the reaper will catch up with him sooner or later.

SlumDog...

How lame, you have the second-biggest nation on earth, and no porn stars. Then again, I doubt Pakistan has any either, it's just a little smaller...

There is plenty of Indian porno floating around. Butt-ugly stuff, most of it.

There is plenty of Indian porno floating around. Butt-ugly stuff, most of it.

All amateur, no doubt. I'm looking for some unhealthily large breasts, gaping-wide vaginas, copious stretch marks, and other sure signs of professionalism.

On second though, I'll stick with the amateurs.

Here you go.

........its India's outhouse.........

Indians don't have toilet facilities.
#59 | Posted by Tosser

....sure they do...they just climb up on a hill overlooking Pakistan and let the shit roll downhill......

....I'm pretty sure that's where the expression comes from.......

I'm looking for some unhealthily large breasts, gaping-wide vaginas, copious stretch marks, and other sure signs of professionalism.
......#62 | Posted by ZombieHunter

......sounds like your looking to date Karl Rove or Rush Limbaugh......

I changed my mind, skizziks.

How much would it cost to put a gaint cage around those savages?