Damned wooden pews..

Well, hell, the Catholic church practically invented torture, so this is no surprise.

Inverted Torture?? WTF Nullifidian.

The more people go to church, the more likely they are to develop a superiority complex i.e. I'm so much better than you because I am "saved", and your behavior is inferior to mine, so therefore I am your God on earth to mete out your punishment for your sins.

I grew up with this, so maybe I have issues, and right now the people close to me are very religous, I refuse to go to church with them. Nothing can be gained by sitting for an hour or two on a hard seat except maybe a nap.

If they got smart they would install Barcaloungers instead of those darn pews.

There would be roaming waiters for those too kicked back to get up.

Seriously, those who think they are blameless because they live by the law of grace are most likely to act out their inner conflicts upon a handy scapegoat. People get wound up with shitty lives and would love to dump some hate on something, somebody. Anything to release whatever crap they have built up over time.

Of course, Jesus died for your sins, so it's ok. Not.

I love the blame religion angle. typical progressives..errr... libtards.

That's funny Chickenrancher cause that's what the Right Wingers do when a terrorist behaves very badly. They blame Religion. Funny dat be in mega spades.

Larry

Ya walk around all day with a necklace that has a man being tortured to death on it and after a while you just become sorta complacent about the idea of torture.

Either that or it's a fetish thing.

Blech.

Be Well.

Ya walk around all day with a necklace that has a man being tortured to death on it and after a while you just become sorta complacent about the idea of torture.
Either that or it's a fetish thing. ..
#7 | Posted by dethspud at 2009-04-30 08:57 PM

In my understanding it is indeed a "fetish thing".

Riddled throughout the Biblical are brutal stories of homicide, rape and ultimately eternal damnation.

These most religious people are much more likely to "follow the leader" than anyone else, especially if their God is being "honored". This is the justification for torture and murder if you join the military - you are "honoring" your nation and God through these "sacred actions".

How the church accomplishes this is by early indoctrination. The craziest Christians I've met tend to "cleans" their lives and often disconnect from everything other than the church. This is aggressive re-association also called "programming".

Yep, after a while people get numb to the right and wrongness about it all and accept it for the norm.

Shock doctrine achieves that. Shock the populace with a immediate danger and then appease them with solutions. Go extreme to convince the sheeple that you are serious about fighting the menace.

We are being jacked around by people who control everything about our lives.

I am sick of the word terrorist, because most of the rhetoric is just bullshit anyway.

Let's say a man walks into a police station with video of him physically and sexually abusing your child and says the child only has 24 hours of air left. Would you agree to torture to save your childs life?

I would.

Of course you would. You view life through the prism of your favorite fictional shows on television, where impossible stupid bullshit is the norm.

Let's say there's a very severe famine and you can save your child's life only by feeding him someone else's child, Would you do it?

Example taken from the pages of history.

I just love how the Right Wingers try their level best to justify torture. Sighhhhhhhh We as a society have sunk so low in such a short amount of time. I hope things improve but I ain't counting on it.

Larry

Zed-
Is the other kid a mooselamb?

Let's say You DID torture the dude and He gives You false information then what?? You're child is dead and so too is Your soul.

Larry

#12 | Posted by BetelG

Thanks for answering

Thanks for playing

Do you kids know you don't care?

#13 | Posted by Zed

Is the child dead or alive when I have to make this decision?

#16 | Posted by LarryMohr

No it is not.

You're child is dead and so too is Your soul.

How do you know the child would be dead, Larry?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have no principle so dear to me that I wouldn't sacrifice it to save my child (or grandchild) from harm.

But that's just me. If you would let your child die (probably of torture) because you would not be willing to torture the perpetrator to get information to save him, that is your perogative.

I don't know why you would rather your child be tortured than the person who kidnapped him, but we value our loved ones differently, I guess, Larry.

#13 | Posted by Zed

Is the child dead or alive when I have to make this decision?

#18 | Posted by chickenrancher at 2009-04-30 10:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

The kid is still alive, but needs a liver transplant, and you are the only one who matches his blood type. The whole situation is complicated by the arrival of the kid's mom, who for religious reasons refuses to allow you to donate your liver, die, and allow her kid to survive for another week so your kid cans have fresh flesh (it's hot, and the refrigeration units are out due to the apocalypse).

Obviously LaRy feels strongly about enhanced interrogation techniques.

My question is, what do you think of animal abuse LarY?

What is the point of these ridiculously unrealistic "hypothetical" scenarios. You don't know how you'd behave until you were in the situation, and history has shown us that in times of extreme hardship and stress, things like "ethics" tend to get stuck on the back burner.

Fretting over what is "right" in these situations is an idle intellectual exercise, and it doesn't accomplish anything.

When the zombie apocalypse comes, you aren't going to have time to fret about moral dilemmas.

#21 | Posted by BetelG

Typical lib answer. You better hurry and catch the bus so you can make you shift at BK.

Thanks for playing.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it.

A group that largely supported GWB.

People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

A group who would largely vote for the democrat.

If a democrat had authorized torture and a republican was coming into office denoucing it.......I believe the polls would be exactly reversed.

Curious...is it the same "faith" that allows you to believe in a deity, that lets you believe that torture is somehow effective?

Some of these churchgoing sorts are truly scary. They will defer to the "wisdom" of clerics that have appointed themselves the mouthpiece of God, and they are capable of believing in a concept that lacks a shred of proof.

I'd say that also gives these people the capability to believe (and do) whatever your civic leaders tell them to believe. It's not a certainty - common sense usually intervenes, but not always.

Goatman-
re: I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have no principle so dear to me that I wouldn't sacrifice it to save my child (or grandchild) from harm.

Good thing we elect representatives to uphold the law, and not tribal daddies.

WWJW?

Would Jesus follow the Golden Rule?

Not a surprising finding. Most authoritarian followers support what the big guy says, whether it's "God", "God's Official Spokesperson" or "The man chosen by God to be President".

Well, hell, the Catholic church practically invented torture, so this is no surprise.
-Nullifidian

-Inverted Torture?? WTF Nullifidian.
-LarryM

Um, the Catholics didn't invent torture. It's been around as long as humans have, probably. If someone isn't giving you what you want, pain can be a tool used for coercion.

The Catholics didn't invent it - they perfected it.

Good thing we elect representatives to uphold the law...

Even the law wouldn't stop me. As I said, I hold no principle so dearly that I wouldn't sacrifice it to save my child from harm or torture

I've no problem if you would rather your child undergo torture rather than the perpetrators of the crime. That's your perogative. I'll bet your child would wish you rethink your position if the situation arose, though.

If a democrat had authorized torture and a republican was coming into office denoucing it.......I believe the polls would be exactly reversed.

#25 | Posted by eberly at 2009-04-30 10:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

If it makes you feel better to ascribe your indefensible position to your own petty partisanship while projecting it onto others in a hypothetical situation, there's really nothing to be said in response. You have no principles, but you are sure that no one else does either....

Most authoritarian followers support what the big guy says, whether it's "God", "God's Official Spokesperson" or "The man chosen by God to be President".

Most authoritarian leaders either try to suppress the entire concept of god so that they are the highest authority in the land (and this never works, because you can't control people's thoughts), or they tell the people what to believe about god's opinion on earthly issues.

If a democrat had authorized torture and a republican was coming into office denoucing it.......I believe the polls would be exactly reversed.

LOL!

You can dream all you want but a democrat didn't authorize it.

If Christ came back now and saw how much love and tolerance you church goers have he would cast you all to hell.

You have no principles, but you are sure that no one else does either....

more assignment of position that isn't true.

are you and moneywar in some sort of contest to see who can be wrong the most?

I NEVER SUPPORTED TORTURE

petty partisanship is exactly what I am saying. You are a great example. You would be one the assholes I'm referring to who would support torture if Obama authorized it.

Goatman-
re: Even the law wouldn't stop me. As I said, I hold no principle so dearly that I wouldn't sacrifice it to save my child from harm or torture.

That's fine, and even admirable. I would hope that you would then have enough respect for the rule of law to then place yourself at the mercy of the laws and the people who elected you to uphold them.

Anything else is cowardice and bravado masked as virtue.

If Christ came back now and saw how much love and tolerance you church goers have he would cast you all to hell.

we all fall short.

Eberly-
re: I NEVER SUPPORTED TORTURE

You do now.

You would be one the assholes I'm referring to who would support torture if Obama authorized it.

#34 | Posted by eberly at 2009-04-30 10:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

I would hope I would not fail that test as miserably as you have.

You do now.

#37 | Posted by BetelG

Actually choosing to debate with an idiot like you is accepting torture.

we all fall short.

That must be torture for you!

I would hope that you would then have enough respect for the rule of law to then place yourself at the mercy of the laws...

If I was charged with a crime, I would put myself at the mercy of the court, yes.

... and the people who elected you to uphold them

BTW, I've never been elected to any kind of office any higher than a board member of my Astronomy Club.

we all fall short

Why be in a religion that encourages an inferiority complex?

Why be in a religion that encourages an inferiority complex?

#42 | Posted by ZombieHunter

It doesn't "encourage" it.

inferior to who?

Eberly-
This is not a debate. This is you supporting torture and others noting that indisputable fact.

I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

BTW, I've never been elected to any kind of office any higher than a board member of my Astronomy Club.

#41 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-30 10:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's probably for the best.

petty partisanship is exactly what I am saying. You are a great example. You would be one the assholes I'm referring to who would support torture if Obama authorized it.

Bull shit!

I find it funny you are hurling a torture stones at the people who are against it as if it is some justification for you blind following of your torturous party.

Trying to justify that guilt!

This is you supporting torture and others noting that indisputable fact.

hell, why don't you just accuse of me of being some jackass who changes his handle on this blog all the time?

LOL

what a joke. I simply pointed out that if the roles were reversed then the polls (not you or me necessarily) would reverse also.

People can be very partisan in their views.

I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

That's probably for the best.

Of course it is. I only ever do what's best.

BTW, I've never been elected to any kind of office any higher than a board member of my Astronomy Club.

#41 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-30 10:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's probably for the best.

#45 | Posted by BetelG

that is one more office that betelgboyd has ever held.

Trying to justify that guilt!

how was the sandwich?

ready for another one?

I think it is very sad that so many self proclaimed Christians would support torture.

My opinion that the polls would reverse still reflects a sad fact that so many people would support it.

boyd and crasswar need to stuff their vaginas back into their depends.

what a pair of whiney pussys.

I simply pointed out that if the roles were reversed then the polls (not you or me necessarily) would reverse also.

#47 | Posted by eberly at 2009-04-30 10:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ah, there's nothing good or bad, but the box you checked on your voter registration card makes it so...

This says more about you, defending torture, than anything else.

I'm going out for a smoke.

I simply pointed out that if the roles were reversed then the polls (not you or me necessarily) would reverse also

And we are pointing out that you are full of shit.

Maybe the democratic party is listening to those they represent in this case.

You make up a situations that is false and then come to a conclusion of truth.........how can that be?

Ifs and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be christmas.

that is one more office that betelgboyd has ever held.

He was hall monitor in 3rd grade. He still has the little felt armband framed in a shadow box in his living room.

I think it is very sad that so many self proclaimed Christians would support torture.

My opinion that the polls would reverse still reflects a sad fact that so many people would support it.

#51 | Posted by eberly at 2009-04-30 10:40 PM | Reply | Flag

I think your wrong about you opinion, torture would not be accepted.

I wonder if you feeling of torture held true when this first became an issue, I know I held strong to this unhuman, uncivil treatment. I have strong ethical convictions and hold to my morals.

Actually, Fifi was 2nd assistant to the hall monitor, he likes to embellish the record.

I can see we are uncomfortable with this topic of torture and the defense of it by Eberly, Goatman, and Rex, so let's talk about me....

Time for me to go, I guess.

Adios.

This just in - Non churchgoers are more likely to support infanticide.

Why be in a religion that encourages an inferiority complex?

#42 | Posted by ZombieHunter
Why be so arrogant to believe man is the ultimate being in the universe?

I can see we are uncomfortable with this topic of torture and the defense of it by Eberly, Goatman, and Rex,

Funny, I don't feel uncomfortable talking about it.

Oh, never mind. Just boyd and his assiging position schtick again.

Carry on, boyd. I'm sorry.

Defend it? I encourage it.

Ok, Goatman. Will you try to stay on topic and not turn away from the issue to play some sort of personal game?

For starters, we have R Zeitgeist encouraging torture as US policy.

Defend it? I encourage it.

#62 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-04-30 10:56 PM | Reply | Flag

So did the Japanese and Germans. Too bad you couldn't have fought for them in WWII---at least you would have been fighting for something you believe in.

"Good thing we elect representatives to uphold the law..."

Even the law wouldn't stop me. As I said, I hold no principle so dearly that I wouldn't sacrifice it to save my child from harm or torture
I've no problem if you would rather your child undergo torture rather than the perpetrators of the crime. That's your perogative. I'll bet your child would wish you rethink your position if the situation arose, though.
#30 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-30 10:25 PM

Thus proving that you would not be capable as a leader. Sorry. Sacrifice is a very difficult concept to indulge, let alone endure.

I'll exemplify this in another scenario, Mr. Bauer - your child is abducted and should you attempt rescue a nuke will take out a city. Are you or your child worth that? Whom might believe that you are?

If Christ came back now and saw how much love and tolerance you church goers have he would cast you all to hell.
#33 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-04-30 10:26 PM

You know that's not true. They may ask forgiveness.

The capacity for self-deception is incredibly purposeful. It allows us to function in a myriad of manner. Humans are petty, childish and deceitful - and someplace in-between those delusions we can expect greatness, compassion and the occasional good work. That's generally how I view relationship of churchgoers - they want to belong and have the support of a fellowship. This is similar to why people might join any group. Whether that proves good or bad is entirely up to why they are involved in the church to begin with and how much they are willing to "fit in" regardless the unsound nature of the doctrine.

We all need love, and it's always interesting seeing how that initial "desire" transforms a good soul into something less desirable.

Boyd, you do realize you make the Women of the View seem manly, don't you?

When I say I sneer in the face of Hussein and the lefts hand ringing over enhanced interrogation techniques, what about hat do you not understand.

Hussein is going get Americans killed with his mamby pamby pussy policies.

Stand up and cheer left, you now actively work for terrorists and the enemies of America.

When I say I sneer in the face of Hussein and the lefts hand ringing over enhanced interrogation techniques, what about hat do you not understand.

I understand you Rex. You could have been born in Germany around 1910, but instead you were born in the US around 1970.

Do you ever think what might have been, Rex?

"The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals

One of the gifts Evangels got from being GOP cannon fodder in the Culture Wars of Distraction from Financial Deregulation and Public Toilet Sex was being associated with public policy that contravenes the Geneva Conventions.

One should be more careful in their choice of friends.

So pouring water on the head of avowed savage to SAVE AMERICAN LIVES is the same as the Holocaust?

Dude, you are one sick fuck, I hope you say a prayer for Khalid Sheikh Mohamed tonight.

America is in real trouble, it's a shame your new terrorist hero's don't only kill the ones that cry over their hair washings.

I see Rexy thinks Churchill was, "mamby pamby".

Did I just use Rex and thinks in the same sentence?

Where's my prize?

Re: So pouring water on the head of avowed savage to SAVE AMERICAN LIVES is the same as the Holocaust?

No, idiot. I was referring to the SS "enhanced interrogation techniques", which you would have cheered.

"Verschrfte Vernehmung" is what the Nazi's called it.

#30 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-30 10:25 PM
I'll exemplify this in another scenario, Mr. Bauer - your child is abducted and should you attempt rescue a nuke will take out a city. Are you or your child worth that? Whom might believe that you are?
#66 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2009-04-30 11:02 PM

You leftards are really stupid. Those here who support harsh interrogation techniques against terrorist do not support torturing soldiers wearing the uniform of a foreign army who follow the geneva convention. But when you have a few crazy nuts who ignore that same convention they deserve whatever treatment they get.

As for the religion comments I don't remember what religion Stalin was but he sure excelled at torture. Oh thats right he was an atheist as were many of the murderous dictators in history.

Sorry: "Verscharfte Vernehmung".

Buzzkiller-
Are you one of those pussies who support "harsh interrogation techniques" but balk at torture?

Been there, done that. Next burden.

Buzz-
Read Article 3, and then get back to us with your new erudition.

Good night blog. I'll look for Buzz's response after actually reading Article 3 when hell freezes over.

At least Rexy has his girlfriend Beachball, whoever that is, never heard of her myself, to defend him.

Sounds like your typical 21 poertner troll, though. Just another Rush Limbo Dittohead regurgitating all over the threads.

"Hey, Rogers! Mop up on aisle 4!

21 percenter

Homophobic projections, eh? Psychologists say that the fact that your words are original to you reveals much.

Is it cramped there in that closet?

Corky,

So I must assume psychologists are on your payroll or maybe on your debt list, as you feel the need to capitalize their profession with a "P".

Anywho, your gay love antics are none of my concern...good day.

Buzz

The kid is still alive, but needs a liver transplant, and you are the only one who matches his blood type. The whole situation is complicated by the arrival of the kid's mom, who for religious reasons refuses to allow you to donate your liver, die, ....

#21 | Posted by BetelG at 2009-04-30 10:07 PM | Reply

Completely flawed example. The liver regenerates itself. You could donate a single lobe to your child; your own liver would grow back, and the donated lobe would grow to full size.

Christians are generally hypocrites it would seem.

Water boarding isn't torture, neither is sleep deprivation, or talking loudly..

This entire subject is muddled because there's no perspective..

The terrorists cut captives heads off their screaming victims on TV. We made a few (very very few) captives think they were drowning (they weren't) in order to get information..

The comparison to torture is ridiculous.. and then to suggest, that somehow church goers, want to torture (ie cut people's heads off) is beyond idiotic.

When an attack by the jihadists kills more americans here, Obama is going to find this argument stuffed back down his throat. The constitution was never written as a suicide pact.. its meant to be lived under and interpreted by decent people with common sense.

Neo liberals have neither decency nor common sense. .

"Water boarding isn't torture"

It was when America prosecuted the Japanese for doing it to Americans.

So...what day, exactly, did it cease to be torture?

"Water boarding isn't torture"

The Interntional Committee of the Red Cross and numerous people who actually know what they're talking about disagree.

if you had reason to believe your own child's life could be saved by info a guy had, would you torture to get it? If so, why not do the same for my child?

#10 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-04-30 09:32 PM

Because torture does not work.

Water boarding isn't torture,

When an attack by the jihadists kills more americans here, Obama is going to find this argument stuffed back down his throat. The constitution was never written as a suicide pact.. its meant to be lived under and interpreted by decent people with common sense.

#90 | Posted by nmg_no at 2009-05-01 09:44 AM

#1 Then why were Japanese military prosecuted and convicted of waterboarding American GI's after WWII?

#2 Clean yourself up you pants pisser.

#1 Then why were Japanese military prosecuted and convicted of waterboarding American GI's after WWII?

#94 | Posted by 726 at 2009-05-01 09:50 AM | Reply | Flag

Because we won dummy. The winners write the rules.

-as you feel the need to capitalize their profession with a "P".

Most people do capitalize at the beginning of a sentence, Gomer.

It looks like we are going to have set up some minimum reading comprehension scores around here.

"When we convince the American people that it will be a long war."

--Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, after the 9/11/2001 attacks, answering a reporter's question, "How will we know when we've won the war on terror?"

A generation ago, when the Reagan administration came into office, they announced that their foreign policy would be "a war on terror." They rejected with scorn the Carter administration's assertion that the theme of American foreign policy should be the promotion of human rights (a pious hope at best under Carter, who supported US client dictators in Iran, Indonesia, Nicaragua, and elsewhere).

Seven presidential terms later, the Obama administration with its great attention to how something is said was perfectly willing to continue its predecessors' policies in this regard, but they knew that the name had to be changed.

"#21 | Posted by BetelG
Typical lib answer.

#24 | Posted by chickenrancher"

I found it pretty unique. Unless you meant clever in general is typically lib, then of course you're right.

93 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Dumber by the minute.

You ask why the winners of the war did as they pleased and I'm dumb? You're classic, Asscrack, never change.

"if you had reason to believe your own child's life could be saved by info a guy had, would you torture to get it? If so, why not do the same for my child?"

It's an interesting question, but has no application to reality, just has application as a philosophical issue.

For instance, if saving your child cost the lives of 1,000 people, would you still do it?

More to the point, can the one example justify the action? In the very isolated situation, i.e., no collateral issues, I would kill to save my child. Also steal. Also break every one of the 10 Commandments. Does that make my action just? Obviously, I think it does. Does that mean the essence of the 10 Commandments should be ignored?

It is the age old issue of morality in situations. Should motality be objective or can issues come into play, is morality subjective. That is what caused "lawyers" to come into existence.

Most importantly, laws are (or at least should be) used to reflect reality. Finding a legit exception to any rule/law is relatively easy. However, as the expression says, "the exception proves the rule", it doesn't negate it.

Bottom line, the example being used to "justify" torture is absurd.

Most of the Protestant Christians in the South that I know totally support torture and think that Obama is going to take away their guns. You see, these "Preachers" are largely idiots that usually don't have a theology degree. Their knowledge and "interpretations" of the Bible are passed down generation by generation; and the Evangelical gene pool is pretty shallow these days. Look at Ted Haggard or any of the other morally challenged preachers and they'll be pro torture and pro NRA. How un-Holly can you get? They should have their tax free status revoked because they tell their congregations how to vote, and their congregations just eat it up and have a "get her done with a gun" attitude.

I can see we are uncomfortable with this topic of torture and the defense of it by Eberly

I never defended it. I did and do believe it is wrong. It would be a tougher issue to tackle if there was significant proof that it worked.

I haven't seen any.

Boyd and Crasswar are confusing me with others who have outright supported torture because I'm not one the pussys asserting that "America is dead" and "We are no longer a decent country" bullshit.

The very basics of Churchgoers is you are with me or not. If you are with me you are safe not your are not. This is the same mechanism of supression or torturing.

His father was a genocidal maniac but Christ was an absolute pacifist.

There is no way you can claim to be a follower of Christ and endorse violence of any sort without being a hypcrite.

I never defended it. I did and do believe it is wrong. It would be a tougher issue to tackle if there was significant proof that it worked.

I haven't seen any.

#101 | Posted by eberly

Are you asserting that waterboarding is not torture or that there is no significant proof that it worked?

Because I go back to my earlier question of how waterboarding is not torture when Japanese soldiers were tried and convicted of torture for doing the same thing in WWII (Chairpoodle need not respond - we don't need another non-answer).

As for it working or not... experts are certain it does not work. The "intel" gathered via torture in the run up to the invasion of Iraq is proof of that.

Are you asserting that waterboarding is not torture or that there is no significant proof that it worked?

no. I would consider it torture

yes

Because we won dummy. The winners write the rules.

#93 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Winning or losing has nothing to do with it. If a certain action was considered torture during WWII and people were convicted and punished for this action, defined as torture by a certain authority, said action should still be considered torture by that same authority. I believe it is called legal precedence. If it was wrong then, it is wrong now.

The point of the punitive action against those who carried out torture during WWII was to set an example that those who torture would continue to be punished going forward, as a preventative measure. Being the "winner" of a war does NOT allow for a double standard. Winning and torture are mutually exclusive issues, dummy.

Try as I might, I can't find any scriptural support for torture.

Plenty of reference to it, most famously a little something called crucifixion, but no one at the event seems to think it's a good idea, except of course the "bad guys"......

"Try as I might, I can't find any scriptural support for torture."

Try the Koran...you'll find it there!

THis is an interesting read:

Try as I might, I can't find any scriptural support for torture.

#107 | Posted by TheTom at 2009-05-01 01:38 PM |

And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten. Deuteronomy 25:2

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24

If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.Psalm 89:31-2

sitemaker.umich.edu

Good stuff. I wonder if the opposite is true as well - if passages attributed to scripture can curb aggressive impulses more than passages attributed to a secular source. It would be nice to beat the damn sword into a plowshare.

I love how the say "only" 42% who do not attend church regurlarly. Like 42% is so far away from half.

Re # 110 by 726:

Christians ignore the parts of the Old Testament that are inconvenient or make them look bad. Though the passages you posted are in their scriptures, they won't mean anything to them.

This is really interesting:

...showing that exposure to violent media causes people to behave more aggressively if they identify with the violent characters than if they do not

So it is not the violence and not the media (video games, movies, music), but rather identification with the one doing the violence. A big light being shed here.

Neo liberals have neither decency nor common sense. .

#88 | Posted by nmg_no at 2009-05-01 09:44 AM

Like you would know or recognize either of those two traits...

"But when you have a few crazy nuts who ignore that same convention they deserve whatever treatment they get."

So you are either a fool or an anarchist who let's his emotions rule his thinking. Not only is it illegal to torture it is also morally wrong for ANY reason.

And as one of those "crazy nuts" who is ignoring our own laws and treaties you deserve whatever treatment you get for that.

"I hold no principle so dearly that I wouldn't sacrifice it to save my child from harm or torture..."

Goatman- that is why we have laws to prevent fools like you who allow human emotion to overrule logic to take the law into their own hands. If everyone thought like you we would have anarchy. Maybe we should just go back to lynch mobs? and vendetta killings...it works so why don't we do that anymore?

Move to Somalia... there are a lot folks like you living there who like tribal warfare and revenge killings. This is America.. we know that Torture DOES NOT WERK and even it it did why would YOU want to reduce yourself to that level of inhumanity?!

In your scenario if the information that was given to you as the result of torture was false (as it often is) then your child dies anyway and you have committed a heinous act and given up your humanity for nothing. You would probably then kill yourself in the final act of your life's tragedy.

And I always suspected that the Evangelicals were closet Sadomasochists!

OK, I've seen Jesus, Christian, Catholic & Bible througout this discussion but ironically barely a blip on the radar on Muslims or Islam?

They don't go to church & torture everyone all the time & celebrate it & teach their children to hate? Torture is a way of life in the "religion of peace" is it not?

This thread alone should tell you all you need to know about the left in this country & just how far they are willing to go to appease our enemies & you should be very, very frightened that the fringe of this party is in power.

In the first place enough with the torture word already...

The ABC video is perfect for the all the leftist idiots here ... It shows a volunteer being water boarded to show us all how terrible it is.

A) The guy is calmly laying there. He is not flopping around in distress... Some torture... He's not choking, screaming, squirming Etc.... Also, it must have been hot as hell out on the day they filmed it because it looks like the guy is actually pretty comfortable with what's happening to him.

B) Water boarding is the softest form of torture there is... I had worse treatment than that in Marine Corps Boot Camp in 1980... I attended Paris Island in the summer... We were made to do heavy exercise in a sand pit infested with knats and sand fleas on 90 plus degree days... Then ordered to stand at attention for extended periods in the hot sun while the mosquitoes ate us alive... God help you if you scratched or smacked one from your neck... You folks have any idea how big mosquitoes get in Beaufort S.C.?

In week one at the rifle range during snap in. I was told to sit on the deck Indian style with my legs crossed. The drill instructor then stood on my knees.

If you feel that the Terrorist who cut off Daniel Pearl's head with a hunting knife shouldn't be water boarded, then write a letter to your congressman asking to have him executed like he should have been on the day they caught him. Because if he spilled the beans after receiving what I saw on the ABC NEWS VIDEO he's nothing but a little pussy anyway!

OK, I've seen Jesus, Christian, Catholic & Bible througout this discussion but ironically barely a blip on the radar on Muslims or Islam?

All religions can be used as a rationale for terrible acts. No individual one is unique in this.

Goatman- that is why we have laws to prevent fools like you who allow human emotion to overrule logic to take the law into their own hands.

No law would stop me from doing anything in my power to save my child from harm.

If everyone thought like you we would have anarchy.

I told the one time that I could condone torture -- to save my child. I don't think that this scenario pops up so often that you have to worry about anarchy, donnieboy. LOL

and even it it did why would YOU want to reduce yourself to that level of inhumanity?!

???

I said I would condone it to save my child. WHy are you inflating this thing and assigning positions to me I never said?

Move to Somalia...

Not a good idea. My child is more likely to come to harm there. That is what my post was all about in spite of your efforts to grossly inflate it and paint me as the Marquis de Sade.

And I always suspected that the Evangelicals were closet Sadomasochists!

Maybe they are. Next time I see one, I'll ask.

And I always suspected that the Evangelicals were closet Sadomasochists!

Well then I gotta start going to church to meet women I guess!

"All religions can be used as a rationale for terrible acts...."

Any philosophy can be so used. That has included scientific philosophy within living memory.

A bright man might conclude there are other variables at work here besides ideology.

Torture is a way of life in the "religion of peace" is it not?

POSTED BY HATEBIGGOV

No it is not. They have some crazies but the average muslim isn't torturing people. Have some sense.

"Christ was an absolute pacifist..."

Not an absolute one. A Sunday School deficiency at work here. Christ, for example, never instructed a soldier not to ply his trade-just to do so honorably.

"Pacifism" is a meat hook those on both the right and the left use to impale Chrisitanity. We're either hypocrites or we're fools, depending on point of view.

We attend church every week at a Christian Church and there is no way we support torture.

What nonsense!

BTW...the gold cross I wear around my neck does not have an image of a man on it.

HE IS RISEN

Any philosophy can be so used. That has included scientific philosophy within living memory.

Yeah, I mentioned religion since that's what the thread was about, but yeah, you can go off the deep end with any ideology and end up burying people in mass graves.

A bright man might conclude there are other var
variables at work here besides ideology.

Like the fact that churchgoers are disproportionately conservative, supporters of torture are more likely to have a conservative philosophy, and correlation does not imply causation...

Yeah, that's probably the case here. Still, I always enjoy a good burn on the religious right. Especially when they play right into it and try to defend both their religion and torture at the same time (and in doing so reveal themselves to be hypocrites). They're a pox on our society, and anything I can do to immunize others against it, I will do.

HE IS RISEN

#124 | POSTED BY LISA

More nonsense from Lisa. Glad to see some things never change.

HE IS RISEN

#124 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-05-01 02:59 PM

And boy is he pissed!

Like the fact that churchgoers are disproportionately conservative, supporters of torture are more likely to have a conservative philosophy, and correlation does not imply causation...

Political ideology and partisan views contribute to this.

#110 | POSTED BY 726

Thanks for the quotes!

My mistake...I was referring only to the New Testament, because that's what Christianity is primarily based on.

If we include the Old Testament, we can find justification for polygamy, slavery, and killing family members for the slightest infraction.

The Exodus bit in particular deserves another look: If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

Which is another reason not to include to Old Testament.

BTW...the gold cross I wear around my neck does not have an image of a man on it.

so?

Speaking of "HE IS RISEN," did anyone else thing at teh end of "Passions of the Chirst" that Jesus was about to get some payback? The camera angles, the music, the lighting...I was waiting for Murdock to greet him outside saying "Jesus Riggs, I'm too old for this."

We attend church every week at a Christian Church and there is no way we support torture.

Then you are honorable person and not a hypocrite. Others would do well to follow your lead.

My mistake...I was referring only to the New Testament, because that's what Christianity is primarily based on.

If we include the Old Testament, we can find justification for polygamy, slavery, and killing family members for the slightest infraction.

Why do Christians only claim the OT when it suits them (creation and anti-gay), but ignores it for everything else?

"does not have an image of a man on it"

Won't sell for much on eBay.
Try a grilled cheese sandwich or a rock.

We're either hypocrites or we're fools, depending on point of view.

we are all imperfect and fall short.

"either hypocrites or we're fools"

Could be both.

Now there's a real shocker. PEW actually had to do a study? I could have told them that for free. Mythologists whole belief system is based on torture, death, fear, & punishment.

We attend church every week at a Christian Church and there is no way we support torture.

Who is "we"? If you have some conservatives that voted for GWB then there is virtually no chance that some do, in fact, support torture.

You do attend a Protestant Christian church right?

In a perfect world church and religion would not exist. It would be extremely liberating to no longer have moral judgments placed on people.

"We" refers to my family.

And NO, it's not a Protestant Church.

Political ideology and partisan views contribute to this.

As much fun as it is to do, this issue is being made deceptively simple. You have to look at all of the strange reasons why Christians have become bedfellows with the republican party (most have little to do with any "Christian" principles), and the reasons why people who identify with a political party are likely to defend parts of its platform that they may not even like.

Though I must say, the capacity to have blind faith can be very dangerous, especially when people don't realize they're putting blind faith in their leaders' decisions and justifications for them. The shallow-minded Christians are so used to accepting every crazy story ad hoc that they don't even think to question their leadership.

Lisa you don't mean your entire family do you?

In a perfect world church and religion would not exist.

Spirituality would continue to exist - and that's not a bad thing. I will agree with you that organized religion is a disease that does more harm than good. It's a mental mafia - organized crime against rationalism and common fucking sense.

"....why Christians have become bedfellows with the republican party"

Who said that ALL Christians have republican affiliations?

I'm not republican.

Matthew Chapter 5 States.

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

we are all imperfect and fall short

No one and no thing is perfect, that's a given. What do we fall short of? Perfection? That's synonymous with saying that we're human. The expectations of God? That idea may work for some, but not every person needs that concept. Humans are perfectly capable of holding themselves to a higher standard without any boogeyman in the sky.

we are all imperfect and fall short

No one and no thing is perfect, that's a given. What do we fall short of? Perfection? That's synonymous with saying that we're human. The expectations of God? That idea may work for some, but not every person needs that concept. Humans are perfectly capable of holding themselves to a higher standard without any boogeyman in the sky.

oops srry

That was awesome Zombie! Did you do that on purpose?

In a perfect world church and religion would not exist.

in a perfect world you and I would be perfect so you are right......no need for religion.

Who said that ALL Christians have republican affiliations?

They don't, obviously - the majority do. I'm building off of what I said earlier - the whole premise of this thread, that "Churchgoers Are More likely to Support Torture," is misleading.

I said earlier that Christians are predominately conservative, and the majority of people who support torture are conservatives. There is a correlation between the two, but correlation does not imply causation. There is no evidence that Christianity alone is causing people to advocate torture.

That was awesome Zombie! Did you do that on purpose?

;)

In the first place enough with the torture word already...

The ABC video is perfect for the all the leftist idiots here ... It shows a volunteer being water boarded to show us all how terrible it is.

#117 | Posted by bashthis at 2009-05-01 02:50 PM | Reply |

I'm guessing you haven't read the torture memos? Because there is no way in hell your "training" was anything remotely simliar to what a detainee goes thru given that most of that shit they did to them is blatantly illegal to do to servicemen.

Funny that some of you think you "Christians" have anything to do with AD Christians. Just because Evangelicals hijacked the word "Christian" does not make a man a Christian. Early "Christians were of every religion, especially Jewish. Because belief in good is universal. After the split between Catholic and Protestant,Protestants got to rewrite religious history. Some stayed somewhat on track, such as Methodists. A Protestant Baptist, Martin Luther King Jr. got it right. Love thy neighbor, and he spread his message with non-violent protests. Evangelicals are so far off base and have no F-ing clue!

Just because we are being attacked by Arab religious zealots hell bent on spreading their violent and intolerant religious views, does not give us the right to torture them. It makes us no better than them. Yes, even if they do it to us.

The CIA/FBI/NSA can accomplish just about anything with Drugs that can be accomplished with water-boarding. If we are actually at war with terror, then killing them is justified. Ask John McCain if torture is justified. Our military personnel and their families rely on the Geneva Accords / Convention for their very lives. If we go against it, our next war(and there will be more)with a different country, our advisories may totally disregard humanitarianism; and how our men and women in uniform will suffer.

That small minded evangelical George Bush and his side kick Darth Vader Cheney have really put us in a fine spot. We may never recover for this mess - on so many levels!

adversaries...sorry

"enough with the torture word already... "

I know it, right? And let's call lynching "extraordinary execution."

Hail Satan!

Hail Satan!

I just love how the Right Wingers try their level best to justify torture.
Larry

#14 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-04-30 09:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

I just love how you just love everything.

There is no evidence that Christianity or religion alone is causing people to advocate torture.

#151 | Posted by ZombieHunter

I agree. Support for torture seems to prevail more among those with a general herd mentality who are predisposed to certain ideological philosophy.

I'm think you could find an even larger percentage for support of torture among Hannity listeners, for example.

"....why Christians have become bedfellows with the republican party"

Who said that ALL Christians have republican affiliations?
I'm not republican.
#144 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-05-01 03:12 PM

Imo, you got gang-jumped unnecessarily for your crucifix qualifier. As much as I enjoy the Catholic holiday traditions on television and occasionally in person, the very domineering element for me has always been their worship of the crucified Jesus. It's entirely disturbing to me.

Anyhow, on topic - do you support enhanced interrogation techniques? If so, why?

Most people of faith that I know certainly won't ever admit that torture should be condoned. However they want to always obey their "church elders/clergy", regardless the interpretation of real-world issues through scripture. Thus the general facts regarding gay marriage, abortion and torture are muddled to them because of their blind faith in other beings telling them how to specifically behave.

I'm think you could find an even larger percentage for support of torture among Hannity listeners, for example.

exactly. It is more of an ideology than a religion driven thing.

"Imo, you got gang-jumped unnecessarily for your crucifix qualifier. As much as I enjoy the Catholic holiday traditions on television and occasionally in person, the very domineering element for me has always been their worship of the crucified Jesus. It's entirely disturbing to me."

LOL

I can handle it, Red.

As for the second part of that comment, I am very willing to discuss it with you. However, not on this site. Too many people interupting a good conversation with their name calling, smart a** remarks, etc.

"Anyhow, on topic - do you support enhanced interrogation techniques? If so, why?"

I don't believe in torture, Red. It's inhumane. It has nothing to do with my faith, either.

I can't even bait my own hook with live bait.

That should tell you all you need to know about religion.

Christians?

Give me a fucking break!!!

Christians in oratory only.

I know it, right? And let's call lynching "extraordinary execution."

#156 | Posted by mrbgoode

Why not? Obama has changed the name of terrorism and terrorist acts. He's completely redefined terrorism and all that it entails.

I love the blame religion angle. typical progressives..errr... libtards.

#5 | Posted by chickenrancher

It's not about blaiming religion. It's all about getting rid of religion so that nothing stands in the way of the march to socialism.

There is the 2010 election though.

How much damage can the Progressives do in 4 (or 6) years? Will it be reversible? Reagan pulled it off. Perhaps it will happen again.

Obama has changed the name of terrorism and terrorist acts. He's completely redefined terrorism and all that it entails.

#165 | Posted by everlong at 2009-05-01 05:29 PM

Perhaps you could be more specific? Do You mean the term Global War on Terror or GWoT...the TERM that BushCo made up and used to justify his unilateral preemptive war, his human rights abuses and his other violations of international law and Bush's executive power grab and his reckless disregard of the Constitution that he was sworn to defend?

So do You mean the so called Global War on Terror that has no end and does not even exist?

Why should Obama continue the Big Lie and call it that?

With a sample size of only 742, drawing ANY conclusions from this is total crap!!!

We attend Mass every Sunday and my wife attends daily Mass, and neither one of us thinks that torture is justified in any situation, period! Just as we are 100% opposed to capital punishment. Any Christian who would openly admit that they thought torture was OK has never understood what Jesus stood for nor why he came to save us. If nothing else, they should keep in mind the treatment that HE received at the hands of the civil authorities of his time.

Remember to always ask yourself: W.W.J.D.?

OCU

That's why they voted for Obama. Listening to him is torture.

I don't believe in torture, Red. It's inhumane. It has nothing to do with my faith, either.

I can't even bait my own hook with live bait.

#163 | Posted by Lisa

Awww, Lisa is such a sweetie!

Hi Lisa! ^_^

With a sample size of only 742, drawing ANY conclusions from this is total crap!!!

We attend Mass every Sunday and my wife attends daily Mass, and neither one of us thinks that torture is justified in any situation, period! Just as we are 100% opposed to capital punishment. Any Christian who would openly admit that they thought torture was OK has never understood what Jesus stood for nor why he came to save us. If nothing else, they should keep in mind the treatment that HE received at the hands of the civil authorities of his time.

Remember to always ask yourself: W.W.J.D.?

THIS.

Yer a good egg, OCU.

Real Christians like Lisa and OCU, Spud has nothing but respect for.

Pseudo-Christians?
Talibaptists?
evDEVILicals?
Prosperity Preachers?

Not so much.

Be Well.

Pseudo-Christians?
Talibaptists?
evDEVILicals?
Prosperity Preachers?

Not so much.

Do you really think anyone gives a shit that you don't respect them? What did you think -- everyone starts shedding tears when they learn you don't respect them?

LOL! Funny stuff.

It seems to me that the people who sit glassy-eyed on Sunday mornings listening to their holy men (sic) rant about gays and sin WOULD be more likely to sit around idly while evil men try to justify torturing fellow humans because someone somewhere out there is trying to GET us. In short, regular church attendance would SEEM to make one more gullible. herm

So, HERM---That "sin" thing---For it or against it?

"Funny that some of you think you "Christians" have anything to do with AD Christians."

AD Christians? Sorry, what does the AD stand for here?

(And please don't say "Anno Domini"....I've already told the joke to myself, hehe)

Stephen Baldwin was just on CNN saying that anybody who was in favor of gay marriage was insulting and offending people who think marriage is between a man and a woman only, because, and I quote: "GOD WROTE THE BIBLE"

Torture included, no big deal.

Let's say a man walks into a police station with video of him physically and sexually abusing your child and says the child only has 24 hours of air left. Would you agree to torture to save your childs life?

I would.

#11 | Posted by chickenrancher at 2009-04-30 09:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

File this in the 'Shit That Will Never Happen' draw.

File this in the 'Shit That Will Never Happen' draw.

Translation:

"However unlikely, if this circumstance arose, I would engage in torture to save my child"

Pseudo-Christians?
Talibaptists?
evDEVILicals?
Prosperity Preachers?
Not so much.

Do you really think anyone gives a shit that you don't respect them? What did you think -- everyone starts shedding tears when they learn you don't respect them?
LOL! Funny stuff.
#171 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-01 08:24 PM

That's just dickish, dude. Spud is a good, kind soul - you two should get along much better.

Also, did you want to answer that unanswerable question - nuke a city to save your baby?

nuke a city to save your baby?

No, of course not.

Spud is a good, kind soul

He's quite hateful and intolerant of anyone who thinks differently than he does. Have you ever read his posts?

He's quite hateful and intolerant of anyone who thinks differently than he does. Have you ever read his posts?

#180 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-01 11:05 PM | Reply | Flag: LOL

He's quite hateful and intolerant of anyone who thinks differently than he does. Have you ever read his posts?

#180 | Posted by goatman

As are most of the left. - see any post on Catholics/Christianity on the DR for proof.

My little troll again responds to my beck and call as always. LOL

I wonder if he is still to cowardly to explain why he calls me the troll when it is ALWAYS he who comes after me first. I think so. LOL

Anyway, you're such a faithful little troll, I will shower you with my grace one again and allow you the last word as I always do. And you will take it because I demand it. LOL

Now do my bidding again, my little trollifidian. LOL

One word from me, a hundred from Goatman. LOL.

" nuke a city to save your baby?"

No, of course not.
#179 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-01 11:03 PM

So, you admit there is a level at which torture, threats and weapons aren't effective? I'm unconvinced that they have any level of effectiveness whatsoever. Remember - during these last eight years the torture intelligence was all wrong, misleading and plainly incorrect. This is damning towards this as an effective technique, but also towards those employing it.

The point of the exercise is to determine how "rational" you are this un-winnable scenario.

Spud is a good, kind soul
He's quite hateful and intolerant of anyone who thinks differently than he does. Have you ever read his posts?
#180 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-01 11:05 PM

Nearly every thread.

He's stylized, insightful and studied, but I can't seem to find any real "hate" in any of them.

I'm not asking for "kiss and make up" but the continual attack-mode posture should be overwith. In fact, the only reason I even get in your face about it is that you guys are generally rational, intelligent and capable. It just seemed strange..

(I read most of yours too, btw)

So, you admit there is a level at which torture, threats and weapons aren't effective?

???

No, I never admitted that. I admitted I would torture anyone who threatened the welfare of my child.

So, you admit there is a level at which torture, threats and weapons aren't effective?

???
No, I never admitted that. I admitted I would torture anyone who threatened the welfare of my child.
#186 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-01 11:18 PM

Who's and how many lives are worth your childs'?

Who's and how many lives are worth your childs'?

Whose? Anyone guilty of wishing him harm

How many? However many there are who wish him harm.

"Who's and how many lives are worth your childs'?"

Whose? Anyone guilty of wishing him harm
How many? However many there are who wish him harm.
#188 | Posted by goatman at 2009-05-01 11:45 PM

The problem is again you simply don't know. What you do know is that you might be murdering innocent people based on false intelligence if you act. How many innocent people would you be willing to murder?

Apparently, the way to a mans soul isn't necessarily through torture, but perhaps through threatening his family?

Maybe that's also a technique these enhanced interrogation groups employ, like they did raping the captives and allegedly the children of captives at Abu Gharib? What intelligence could be gained from that?

"So, HERM---That 'sin' thing---For it or against it?" Zed, I could fill a book. But first you must tell me what sin is. What YOU say it is? Well, why not? What your "pastor" says it is? Is it the wanton killing of others in pointless wars, or opposing those pointless wars. Is it gayness or bigotry against gays. Tell me, and I'll tell you. Tomorrow? herm

Let he who has not pulled the wings off of a fly give the first waterboarding.

NPR story today: Teenage Afgan girls prevented from going to school by the Taliban. One girl interviewed had her face and facial muscles burned off with acid by a Taliban soldiers on motorcycles. Her teacher and several of her girlfriends were also injured but she suffered the worst wounds. This from the Southeast provinces.
Now the girls are educated in secret.
These are the animals we are up against.
If Michael Savage were ranting about it you would laugh and roll your eyes, but this was NPR.
I don't know if you find it relevant to this story, really don't care. Just thought you should know.

Let he who has not pulled the wings off of a fly give the first waterboarding.
#191 | Posted by boojiboy at 2009-05-02 01:03 AM

I've always considered the entire "enhanced interrogation" process mechanical and un-nuanced. Why would they act so harshly for plainly wrong intel? It's again, as if these procedures were purposefully intended to criminalize the soldiers involved.

Do you believe that investigations might be allowed to continue regarding the missing "torture tapes"?

Danforth wrote,

"Water boarding isn't torture"

It was when America prosecuted the Japanese for doing it to Americans.

So...what day, exactly, did it cease to be torture?"

It doesn't matter if it is or not. Terrorist are not members of the military of any foreign country who signed the geneva convention like the japanese were. They do not follow the rules of war set out in the convention so they do not get the protections afforded by those conventions. Its that simple.

If we ever torture a british or australian soldier I protest against the Obama administration for doing it. until then it does not matter.

What's really Amusing here is some of you
(obviously pew sitters) have formulated your own bible in your mind. You cannot have it both ways. Jesus never led anyone to beleive that it was ok to harm anyone even in retaliation.... "turn the other cheek" "go the mile" "give 'em your cloak and pants as well"

Prime example why I don't attend a church.

Heres an editorial out of today's local paper:

Don't hold sins of man against God

I'd like to respond to some things mentioned in the People & Faith section of April 18 ("Here some answer: No religion' ").

One reason some people give to not believe in God is that, "People who go to church are hypocrites."

To this I plead: Please don't hold Christians' behavior against God. We are all sinners; that's why we NEED God.

Christians succumb to temptation just as others. But we try to live as close to the example Jesus set for us in order to know God better. When we accept God's gift of salvation, we do not become perfect, but we try to limit the damage of sin in our lives. It is a lifelong process of learning.

Another reason people struggle with belief is they wonder, "How can a loving, all-powerful God allow evil to exist in the world?"

But God gives us free will to decide our actions; we are not puppets. The evil comes when we choose to do what is against God's will. Remember, there is a devil out there tempting us, and he is very deceptive.

The Bible contains violence because it records human activity. The Book of Judges is especially difficult to read because it shows some of man's worst sinful nature. But ultimately, the Bible tells one story from beginning to end, of God's relationship with Man.

This includes Man's fall, Man's failure to save himself and God's love in offering to Man the gift of salvation through Jesus, His Son.

The Bible is fascinating in and of itself. It is a collection of 66 books, recorded by 44 different men, written over a period of 2,000 years. But note that I don't say the Bible was written by men. The Bible has one author, the Holy Spirit, who guided those men on the words to record.

When you read it, it helps to keep in mind a few things. It was not written in chronological order, but is arranged by types of writings.

In the Old Testament, first are the history books, then the wisdom books, then the prophetic books. When reading the prophets, it helps to know at what point in Israel's history they were written.

In the New Testament, the first four books (the gospels) are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' time on Earth. The book of Acts is a chronicle of the early church activities. And the rest of the New Testament books are letters written to various people and groups giving teachings on salvation and advice on Christian living.

The main point I want to make is: God is the standard of love, forgiveness and kindness. We humans are sinful, but please don't let our sins prevent you from believing in God.

#194 | POSTED BY BUZKILLER AT 2009-05-02 05:24 AM | REPLY | FLAG: What a pants pissing idiot.

Those nasty Christians! We should publish and post pictures of all waterboarding that took place in Gitmo. Let Christians support torture then.

Of course, when the same is said/requested of partial birth abortion pictures, the self-righteous left will sweep such requests under the rug...will justify the procedure...cuz it's all about women's rights to their body.

- Waterboard an Islamic extremist, and save thousands.
- Pierce a baby's skull and suck out its brains, and advance the cause of human freedom and civil rights!

Priceless!

"But first you must tell me what sin is...."

Well, I asked the question because you complained of people "ranting" about it. That struck me as amusing because, when you get down to it, all this site is about is ranting about bad behavior in some form.

"But first you must tell me what sin is...."

The only authority I know is God and the only authoritative reference for God's opinion is the Bible.

But I'll hazard some personal definitions of sin based upon what I know: You are sinful if you don't help even strangers in time of genuine need. You are sinful when you lie. You are sinful when you betray personal trust. You are sinful when you fail to show mercy to the helpless.

A lot of behavior I just let God sort out. I loathe substance abuse and think that much sin is related to consumption of drugs and alcohol. Having said that, I'd treat it as a public health issue, not in an overtly religous way.

Your turn now...

By the way, as a regular churchgoer, I've never heard a "rant". There's a bit of ignorance perhaps based on lack of experience here. It's the same ignorance that holds we are passive, suggestible, and ignorant people.

The cure for this is that you learn to make deviled eggs and then invite yourself to some church's weekly pot-luck. What's the worst that can happen?

"Rants"---That is funny---Never seen a rant---I have seen people attend church apparently to provoke the faithful in some way. We're nice to them and most of them just go away. Interesting how that works.

"The only authority I know is God and the only authoritative reference for God's opinion is the Bible." How can anyone argue with Zed's ultimate authority? "Gawd" said it, Zed believes it, end of discussion. Zed, there's so much in heaven and earth you never dreamed of that I don't know where to start. Folks who wrote the most recent bible parts - never mind Leviticus - had different problems than we face today. Any deity hiding behind today's rain clouds smiles tolerantly as Brother (?) Zed Explains It All To Me. Zed, consider THIS a rant. herm

"There are so many things in heaven and on earth you have never dreamed of, I don't know where to start..."

LOL.

1) Of course.
2) Bullshit.

"Consider this a rant...."

OK, it's a rant. Is it a better rant than the ones you put into the mouths of the religous?

I note the question, "Are you for it or against it" (sin)---remains. I'll tell you what, why don't you wow me with something I've never dreamed of instead?

What's "religous"? Zed, I'm decidedly FOR sin. But *I* get to define it. Please post everything you ever dreamed of, and I'll fulfill your request at once. herm

Praise Jesus, and pass the battery acid!

"What's religous, ZED....?"

I dunno, HERM. What's dishonest and non-responsive?

Tell you what---Why don't you define "dishonest" and/or "non-responsive" any way you like---Then tell me if you approve of both or either?

Fox News had an intelligent analysis of this whole torture conundrum. Apparently, a lot of people gave Pontius Pilate a hard time about that whole "torture" of Jesus thing. (Y'know the whipping, the thorns, the carrying of heavy weight through public streets and the crucifying.) But the truth is, we might never have gotten the valuable intel we did from Jesus had we used other, less shocking methods.

"I dunno, HERM. What's dishonest and non-responsive?" Not ME, Z. Life's darkest moment comes when you play spelling cop and the illiterati don't realize they've been caught. Anyway ... if Z sees any dishonesty and/or non-responsiveness from me, let him/her spell it out. But hey, I'm probably gone for the rest of the day. herm

"Life's darkest moment is when you play spelling cop...."

You mean the "dunno"? I'd say life's darkest moment is when you lose your sense of humor. That's a sin, by the way.

Zed, in case you haven't noticed, Herm is a bitter guy to try and have even a positive exchange with. Save your keystrokes.

But the truth is, we might never have gotten the valuable intel we did from Jesus had we used other, less shocking methods.

#208 | Posted by moder8

But was Jesus threatening the welfare of Goatman's kid? That seems to be the real concern here.

#102 | Posted by film5 at 2009-05-01 12:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

His father was a genocidal maniac but Christ was an absolute pacifist.

I take issue with the above statement. There is not one shred of evidence in the whole of recorded history that points to Joseph the carpenter being a genocidal maniac.

Suffering is just so God Damn Biblical for Christians!

Seeing that Distrust,Lies,Hatred and Violence were the finishing school that turned Jesus into a Holy God,its no wonder Christians have a special fondness in their hearts for everything Sinister and Diabolical! Included in this Christian mindset is the firm belief that the more you "Suffer" the sooner and the easier you'll get into Heaven! So these (so called) terrorists and anybody else who is tortured are luckily receiving a "Get Into Heaven Quicker" card according to Christian belief.

If the American public decided (with very good cause) to "Torture" all the members of the Bush Regime and even all the politicians in Washington,Christians would have to acknowledge the wonderful "Salvation" inherent in this and enthusiastically back it because after all,it is just so god damn....Biblical!

The best argument I have heard came from a Marine. He said that when we invaded Iraq, the enemy willingly surrendered, expecting that they would be treated well. That means they stopped fighting. If they thought they would be tortured they would fight to the death to avoid capture, killing more Marines in the process.

After WWII, many of the German rocket scientists surrendered to the Allies rather than allow themselves to be captured by the Soviets for the same reason. Those guys came in kind of handy in giving us the missile capability to have ICBMs and communications satellites, and stuff. I'm sure they would have been willing to work so hard for the US if they had been tortured instead, don't you think?

hell yeah! Going to church is torture, so it stands to reason....

just kidding, this is bullshit topic. Soros probably called Drudge personally and made them post it....

"Those nasty Christians! We should publish and post pictures of all waterboarding that took place in Gitmo. Let Christians support torture then.

Of course, when the same is said/requested of partial birth abortion pictures, the self-righteous left will sweep such requests under the rug...will justify the procedure...cuz it's all about women's rights to their body.

- Waterboard an Islamic extremist, and save thousands.
- Pierce a baby's skull and suck out its brains, and advance the cause of human freedom and civil rights!

Priceless!

#197 | Posted by TheOneBS "

Go for it, publish those pictures. People should know what they're getting into.
It's called information and knowledge, people should know what they are doing.

But I digress. Torture is the subject at hand, not abortion. The reason I do not support it is because it is WRONG. What is the point of saving American lives if in doing so we give up all that it means to be American?
Furthermore torture doesn't even work that well!
A friend of mine sent me this in an email one time
"Read this:
How to Break a Terrorist: The U.S. Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq by Matthew Alexander and John Bruning

It's basically the argument that torture is unreliable and that there are other ways to effectively extract information. Matthew Alexander was an operative in Iraq, who, unlike his... Read More colleagues who used torture, built up a relationship with the prisoners. He comments that by building a relationship, you can often get most terrorists to open up, regardless of their background. He said that by doing so, he has turned prisoners into informants who have helped the military catch the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq (the so-called deadliest man)."

Think about it.

By the way, you don't have to support abortion and not support torture. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that not everyone falls into simple categories. Whatever helps you understand the world man....

"Those nasty Christians! We should publish and post pictures of all waterboarding that took place in Gitmo. Let Christians support torture then.
Of course, when the same is said/requested of partial birth abortion pictures, the self-righteous left will sweep such requests under the rug...will justify the procedure...cuz it's all about women's rights to their body.
- Waterboard an Islamic extremist, and save thousands.
- Pierce a baby's skull and suck out its brains, and advance the cause of human freedom and civil rights!
Priceless!"

Well Said! It always amazes me... even if you are not Christian, the teachings are good and the Bible is a positive book to read...

How the left can twist it all around is beyond me...

"By the way, you don't have to support abortion and not support torture. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that not everyone falls into simple categories. Whatever helps you understand the world man...."

Now there is a REAL stat I would love to see published...

I'm thinking you are WRONG!!!

I would also love to see the stat of people who support abortion but are against the death penalty.

hmmmmmm... wonder how that would turn out....

......raises his hand. I'm certainly against the death penalty but a mother should have the right to choose. What does that have to do with torture?

ATTENTION FUNDAMENTALIST FUCKSTAINS:

Your ideology is destined for extinction. Your religion may endure, but a sect centered around fear, blind adherence to religious leaders, and self-righteous hatred will not. Fundamentalist christianity, as a social movement, is doomed to perish. You have chained yourselves to the mast of a sinking ship, and are now paying the price. Society is inexorably moving away from your beliefs and turning its back on you.

I spit on the corpse of this pathetic excuse for a Christian sect, and I will dance on it's headstone.

"Society is inexorably moving away from your beliefs...."

As a student of history, ZOMBIE, I can say with conviction that society will also be moving away from yours.

If you want to understand a "fundamentalist" Christian, or indeed any Christian, then you need to realize they don't look on life as an episode of "American Idol".

"I spit on the corpse...."

If it is a corpse then it doesn't care.

Your ideology is destined for extinction. Your religion may endure, but a sect centered around fear, blind adherence to religious leaders, and self-righteous hatred will not. Fundamentalist christianity, as a social movement, is doomed to perish. You have chained yourselves to the mast of a sinking ship, and are now paying the price. Society is inexorably moving away from your beliefs and turning its back on you.

wow! what you miss is that the Christians I know could give a fuck less about "what's popular". I'm guessing you are the type that stood in long lines to get that beanie baby and cabbage patch doll. Just because something is popular doesn't make it right!

"......raises his hand. I'm certainly against the death penalty but a mother should have the right to choose. What does that have to do with torture?"

nothing, but was trying to prove the point that statistically speaking, I would bet that "in most cases" if you are anti-life (or pro-abortion as you all like to "spin it"), that you are anti-torture. same holds true for death penalty vs. anti-life...

It's really not your fault, you are just weak and you let popular society pound that shit into your head! lots of people out there just like you...