Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, April 22, 2009

The Bush administration put relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist. Such information would've provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush's main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. No evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden's terrorist network and Saddam's regime.

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www.nationaljournal.com

Key Bush Intelligence Briefing Kept From Hill Panel

Ten days after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, President Bush was told in a highly classified briefing that the U.S. intelligence community had no evidence linking the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein to the attacks and that there was scant credible evidence that Iraq had any significant collaborative ties with Al Qaeda, according to government records and current and former officials with firsthand knowledge of the matter.

Same source.

One of the more intriguing things that Bush was told during the briefing was that the few credible reports of contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda involved attempts by Saddam Hussein to monitor the terrorist group. Saddam viewed Al Qaeda as well as other theocratic radical Islamist organizations as a potential threat to his secular regime. At one point, analysts believed, Saddam considered infiltrating the ranks of Al Qaeda with Iraqi nationals or even Iraqi intelligence operatives to learn more about its inner workings, according to records and sources.

They were so desperate to justify an unjustifiable they used unjustifiable methods to try and do exactly that. All in our collective names and the Right Wingers just don't give a fuck. Amazing doesn't do justice to that rationale.

Larry

The Silence from the Right is deafening.

"The Silence from the Right is deafening."

They'll get receiving their talking points memo shortly. It'll doubtless include this tidbit:

"Banned Techniques Yielded High Value Information,' Memo Says" (www.nytimes.com). Excerpts:

President Obama's national intelligence director [Admiral Dennis C. Blair] told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists....

Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture....

Admiral Blair's assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001....

Admiral Blair's private memo was provided by a critic of Mr. Obama's policy. His assessment could bolster Bush administration veterans who argue that the interrogations were an important tool in the battle against al Qaeda....


But, of course, it's in the NYT, known to some DR posters as the "NY Slime," so they'll probably discount it, right? Riiiiight.

OOHRAH -

I was looking in the "Comments" section, saw your name and was going to ask how you're doing.

What credence do I place in the NYT story? Well, for the NYT's sake I'd like to think whatever was passed along to them was the genuine article.

On that story, it's very interesting on several levels. I'll be interested to see what, if anything, Admiral Blair has to say about this. (My guess, not a whole hell of a lot.) And I've been interested to see that the "Drudge Report" consigns the story to the upper lefthand side of its page (albeit in red and with a leader about cloning humans).

This certainly sets the stage for serious debate. Unfortunately, I fear specifics will be lacking and we'll be expected to take the claim on faith because claims will be advanced that revealing those specifics would damage this and affect that. But for those of cynical and/or skeptical bent it's clear such arguments have been used in the past to create a wall of lies blocking anyone interested in a subject from actually getting anywhere near the subject.

There's an interesting angle in the story itself: "Admiral Blair's private memo was provided by a critic of Mr. Obama's policy." Duh. Classic bureaucratic infighting. (And as proof of the whose-ox-is-getting-gored principle, you may hear complaints from Obama supporters though probably not from his critics who---and I'm sure you'll agree---would be all for an investigation of the leak had it come from the other corner of the political arena.)

I would like to know what Blair's talking about when he (apparently) writes:

"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country."

That could mean a lot of things. If it's in reference to the Library Towers plot (www.slate.com), probably not very much. My take is, he's talking about what sounds almost like an organizational chart, a diagram of a chain of command. But he's not going to provide details in such a passage, so, who knows?

I realize going on like this may seem like an on-the-one-hand-but-on-the-
other-hand ramble, but it's not intended as such. The whole torture business is very complicated and it's going to be with us for a very, very long time. The admiral's statement makes it curiouser and curiouser. As Alice (and now we) enter Wonderland, where nothing is really as it seems.

And you, Oohrah? (Also, how you doing?)

Doc-how about "the rest of the story"?

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Does the rest of the story make the fact that torture works any less true? No? Then STFU.

What a glorious day. I've only been saying for years that torture works. You limpwrists tripped over yourselves to provide quotes from people stating the contrary.

And to think it was Obama's Intel Chief that provided the ammo...

Hahahahahaha!

I wonder what the "Greatest Generation" would think of some of these losers?? I bet they would decree them unfit to call themselves Americans wouldn't You agree??

Larry

"What a glorious day...."

Nothing's happened that allows you to stick pins in the eyes of kittens,

Bush tortured to develop political cover? To justify a conclusion he had anyway?

No, because he feared being called a "limpwrist". By the way, anyone one to start a betting pool about when or if he returns to his ranch?


I wonder what the "Greatest Generation" would think of some of these losers?? I bet they would decree them unfit to call themselves Americans wouldn't You agree??


Larry

#10 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-04-22 10:20 AM | Reply


Dummy,
Read a book or watch a documentary about the Greatest Generation, and what they did and were willing to do in order to win.
You'd be crying for them to be brought up on charges for war crimes you snivelling pansy.

Zed,
Were you one of the many puds here that claimed torture didn't work?

I have a feeling the new talking point will be "We didn't say it didn't work, we said it wasn't right"...Oh boy, there sure will be a bunch of lefties changing their tunes around here today I'll bet.

"Snivelling pussy...."

Ouch, that hurt. Help me, mamma. Another reason to torture.

Always open to citations describing the torture practices of say, the 82nd Airborne.

Well, mostly I was one of the puds that said torturers are evil, cowards and sadists. I am occasionally one of the "Who Would Jesus Torture?" crowd.

Zed,
I realize you're stupid, but are you honestly stupid enough to believe I intended to hurt you with a post I addressed to Larry?

You're an odd duck.

I'm just wondering if you honestly think you hurt anyone? If not, what's your point?


Well, mostly I was one of the puds that said torturers are evil, cowards and sadists. I am occasionally one of the "Who Would Jesus Torture?" crowd.

#16 | Posted by Zed at 2009-04-22 10:35 AM | Reply |


Wow, I see finding the people that claimed torture doesn't work is going to be difficult.

Doc, Blair doesn't provide a single example to support his suggestion that torture might work.

And as Northguy pointed out, the rest of the article challenges Blair's argument. In addition to the quote NG pulled:

Several news accounts, including one in the New York Times last week, have quoted former intelligence officials saying the harsh interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, a Qaeda operative who was waterboarded 83 times, did not produce information that foiled terror plots. The Bush administration has long argued that harsh questioning of Qaeda operatives like Zubaydah helped prevent a planned attack on Los Angeles and cited passages in the memos released last week to bolster that conclusion.

But frankly, I don't care whether they're effective or not. I would rather risk dying from a terrorist act than compromise the values we're supposed to stand for. The money quote in this article is from Robert Gibbs:

"What makes the United States special, and what makes you special, is precisely the fact that we are willing to uphold our values and our ideals even when it's hard, not just when it's easy."


I'm just wondering if you honestly think you hurt anyone?

#18 | Posted by Zed at 2009-04-22 10:38 AM | Reply


Uh, no you weren't. You were mistaken in thinking that post addressed to Larry was intended for you. Now, like your stance on torture not working, you're changing your tune.

"You were mistaken...."

No, I involved myself. So, do you think you hurt anyone and, if not, why do you continue?

For the record I don't think torture works. There's an experiment to be done here that examines whether catching detainees in ungaurded verbal moments doesn't yield more information than thumb screws.

I have a feeling the new talking point will be "We didn't say it didn't work, we said it wasn't right"...--#14 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Nothing new there -- I said months ago that as cheesy as it may sound "Give me liberty or give me death" still resonates with me. I'm with the Marines, who defend THE CONSTITUTION that the Bush Administration trampled all over in their efforts to find an excuse for themselves.

No, I involved myself.

#22 | Posted by Zed at 2009-04-22 10:43 AM | Reply


That's hilarious. "I wasn't mistaken. In fact it's completely normal to take an insult directed at a specific person and "involve mysef" so that I may react as if they were meant for me"

But I see you've now managed to quit pretending you weren't one of the puds claiming torture doesn't work.

I'm with the Marines, who defend THE CONSTITUTION that the Bush Administration trampled all over in their efforts to find an excuse for themselves.


#24 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 10:47 AM | Reply


What does this even mean?

Does the rest of the story make the fact that torture works any less true? No? Then STFU.


"not essential to our national security."

Apparently, at least according to the Admiral, torture didn't produce anything vital and actually hurt America.
i realize for the Right, America failing is a good thing, but still....

Remember, mom or dad can read you the hard parts now, but someday you'll have to do it on your own.

But frankly, I don't care whether they're effective or not. I would rather risk dying from a terrorist act than compromise the values we're supposed to stand for

Fair point. However, it is more difficult when you are a President, Advisor, General, Cabinet member, Congressman on certain committies etc.... and you are gambling with the lives of 300 million people (minimum...then count lives around the world)

You can't expect all of them to agree with you.

Remember, mom or dad can read you the hard parts now, but someday you'll have to do it on your own.

#27 | Posted by northguy3 at 2009-04-22 10:53 AM | Reply


Well I'll have them read you the part you conveniently failed to answer...

Does the rest of the story make the fact that torture works any less true? No? Then STFU.

What part of "did produce significant information" do you not understand?

Torture works!

What does this even mean? -- #26 | Posted by 101Chairborne

What part don't you understand?

Apparently, at least according to the Admiral, torture didn't produce anything vital...

#27 | Posted by northguy3 at 2009-04-22 10:53 AM | Reply |


But it did produce significant inforamtion...
In other words, it works. Now, if only you'll admit what I've been telling you dumbsucks...Torture works.

All together now..."You were right Chairborne!"

You can't expect all of them to agree with you. -- #28 | Posted by eberly

Like Gibbs said,

"What makes the United States special, and what makes you special, is precisely the fact that we are willing to uphold our values and our ideals even when it's hard, not just when it's easy."

-Torture works!


That's why Aflacabibble is winning the war.

Does 101Chairborne REALLY want to take Admiral Blair at His word??

waronyou.com

thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.
com

www.slate.com

What part don't you understand?

#30 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 10:56 AM | Reply


The part about you being with the Marines. The part where "Marines" even made it in to your reply.
The part where the cosntitution has anything to do with torture actually working.

In other words, I have no idea what your post has to do with what I said.


Does 101Chairborne REALLY want to take Admiral Blair at His word??

#34 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-04-22 10:59 AM | Reply | Flag


So are you saying Obama made giant mistake in picking this guy? Are you saying the Intel Chief doesn't know what he's talking about?

So are you saying Obama made giant mistake in picking this guy? Are you saying the Intel Chief doesn't know what he's talking about?

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-22 11:01 AM | Reply


For once You understood Me. Congrats are in order. Yes exactly that.

Larry

All together now..."You were right Chairborne!" -- #31 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Well, shoot, get something right and I'll be the first to toss you a mackerel.

Saying the sky is green with purple polka dots doesn't make it true. Blair did not cite a single example in support of his claim that torture works. The only example I've ever seen anyone cite in is the purported L.A. plot, and several former intelligence officials have disputed even this one.

Even if torture did provide useful information in this case, that has to be weighed against the Bush Administration's enormous success in bolstering AQ recruiting, and the cover it provides our enemies for violating the Geneva agreements.

And again, I wouldn't care if torture did work. It's barbaric.

"Doc-how about "the rest of the story"?
#8 | Posted by northguy3"

I hadn't seen it until checking back on this thread just now. It's revealing and helps to clear up some of the questions I expressed earlier about Blair's remarks. (Same to Phoenix up near the top of the thread -- like you, I'm not a believer in torture and not just because I don't think it works well.)

I'm inclined to interpret Bair's "High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country" as saying, "Yeah, we got some organizational chart stuff by torturing these guy." (Note, particuarly, absolutely no claim that any plots were uncovered or threats thwarted, the basic Cheney position.)

More telling (and informative and deleterious to the position of those who keep telling us "torture works") are Blair's comments that call into question whether torture is necessary and also its deleterious effects on US efforts abroad. Specifically:

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means."

And:

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

As Blair says (abcnews.go.com):

"WE DO NOT NEED THESE TECHNIQUES TO KEEP AMERICA SAE."


What a surprise!

And again, I wouldn't care if torture did work. It's barbaric.

#38 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 11:13 AM | Reply


War is barbaric. I think you're beginning to understand.

You realize it was a private memo that is redacted, right? You also realize that the follow up statement he released was simply damage control, right?

Why would a man in the Obama Admin admit that torture worked? Do you think he did it to help me? Bush? Cheney?
Why would he make something like that up? I'm interested in hearing the spin on that.


Oops! Never mind.

Phoenix has the story here

www.drudge.com

"Cheney Used Torture to Find Saddam-al Qaeda Link"

And that was on Colin Powell.

Interesting that after his private memo was released, he felt the need to add the part you guys want to hang your hats on...

It is damage control, and it's obvious.

Torture does work. How does that make you feel?

Where are the people that claimed in no uncertain terms that torture doesn't work?

The part about you being with the Marines.

Figuratively speaking. As in "I'm on their side."

The part where "Marines" even made it in to your reply.

Cheney, Rumsfeld et. al. try to paint anyone opposing torture of detainees as pansies too soft to defend the country. "The country" is defined in part by our Constitution, which provides for due process/habeas corpus. The Marines -- not typically thought of as pansies -- take an oath to defend the Constitution (not the President).

The part where the cosntitution has anything to do with torture actually working.

Fair enough. I've been assuming that you want to make the leap from "torture works" to "the Bush Administration's use of torture was good policy," and have been arguing against the latter. But possibly you never intended to go there.

Fair enough. I've been assuming that you want to make the leap from "torture works" to "the Bush Administration's use of torture was good policy," and have been arguing against the latter. But possibly you never intended to go there.

#42 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 11:25 AM | Reply


I understand.
No, I have no intention of praising the Bush Admin for doing what every Admin since the beginning of the country has done.
I've always maintained it worked, regardless of who the President was. I was asked for proof, which is admittedly difficult to come by because it's not every day that somebody in the position to know admits torture works. I submitted that it worked because we continued to use it, as do other countries.
I don't believe it's the answer for every situation, I just realize it's the answer for some situations.

War is barbaric. -- #40 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Good point.

I'm not the Catholic Church's biggest supporter, but I think their Just War Doctrine, which provides criteria for justifying the barbaric act of war, is compelling. It includes the following principles:

* the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
* all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
* there must be serious prospects of success;
* the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.
en.wikipedia.org

The Bush Administration's use of torture does not meet these criteria.

Torture works, as a propaganda tool.
You can get any statement you want with it.
But useful actionable intel not so much.

Why would a man in the Obama Admin admit that torture worked? -- #40 | Posted by 101Chairborne at

He may well believe that torture works. Fine. Prove it. He didn't -- and no one else has (yet).

Interesting that after his private memo was released, he felt the need to add the part you guys want to hang your hats on...

You think he was tortured, recognized that he was wrong, or just doesn't have the backbone to stand up for what he believes?

FWIW, I'm not hanging my hat on his later statements -- he equivocates so much that I don't accord him any credibility.

I submitted that it worked because we continued to use it, as do other countries. -- #43 | Posted by 101Chairborne

?? Habitual behavior/ standard operating procedures are always rational?

You think he was tortured, recognized that he was wrong, or just doesn't have the backbone to stand up for what he believes?


#46 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 11:44 AM | Reply


I believe he said what he believed in a private memo. Then when it went public, it didn't look so good, so they softened it up to be more in line with the admin's feelings on torture.
In private you'll be more blunt, and to the point. It doesn't work so well in public, and that's why the public statement is much softer than the private one.

I'd have to assume that he had help crafting the second one so that it fit more with the admin's message. I don't believe it's wrong, or sinister, I just believe that's how things work.

The money quote in this article is from Robert Gibbs:

"What makes the United States special, and what makes you special, is precisely the fact that we are willing to uphold our values and our ideals even when it's hard, not just when it's easy."

#20 | Posted by Phoenix at

hnn.us

What makes the US not so special is history and research of it. The US is not without a history involving prisoners and what we did with them.

?? Habitual behavior/ standard operating procedures are always rational?


#47 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 11:55 AM | Reply


People in the interogation business are in the business of getting answers. They aren't going to keep using a technique for decades (centuries) if it doesn't provide results. If it continually provided more bad results than good, it wouldn't be used.

Again, it's not the only method, but it's one of many that work on different people.

So I guess anyone who believes that torture works has to concede now that there was never an Iraq-AQ link -- because if there was, it would have come out in all those hours of torture.

I don't see what's in the text of Blair's memo that is either contracted by or contradicts what he subsequently said.

The core statement from the memo: "High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country."

Again, not a peep or even a hint of a peep in there that boasts of of uncovering plots, thwarting attacks, or saving lives.

And nothing in there is contradicted by his comments that (1) "there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means"; (2) "these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security"; and (the kicker) (3) "We do not need these techniques to keep America safe."

People in the interogation business are in the business of getting answers. They aren't going to keep using a technique for decades (centuries) if it doesn't provide results. -- #50 | Posted by 101Chairborne

You really think that explains the Lynndie Englands of the world?

"Torture works, as a propaganda tool.
You can get any statement you want with it.
But useful actionable intel not so much.

#45 | Posted by Salaryman "


I don't agree. Unless someone is specifically trained to deal with torture if captured, I don't buy it.

Think of it this way.

A bunch of kids in a highschool classroom are in trouble because someone was talking when they weren't supposed to be.

The teacher asks who was talking and no one answers.

So, the teacher decides its time for one of those fun projects that'll take up most of the weekend and weeknights completing. However, as an incentive, give up a name and the project goes away.

Maybe the name will come out. But, after the second and third time of this, the classmates decide their sick of paying for it.

Punishment does create results. I have seen this in adult life, too. Even a little leaning on an adult will make them talk- -especially when there's a benefit. That's were plea deals come in.

So, here you have a terrorist who won't talk. If you ask nicely and roughly, they laugh at you. A little torture and now their talking.

Is it good intel? Well, what happens if its bad intel? Torture them again, but much more?

This whole idea that people will say anything to avoid being tortured is BS. If they say anything that turns out to be false, do you think they'll just come up with another riduculous lie to save their skin, only to be severely punished again for it?

That makes no sense and I don't buy that the lies are so credible that the torture stops and never is tried again.

Talk or else. If you don't. Torture. If you lie, that's going to make you pay even more.

This whole idea that torture provides no results - whose data are you using? I mean, is this some lab study being done that establishes the base line for this argument?

You really think that explains the Lynndie Englands of the world?

#53 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 12:05 PM | Reply


Non sequitur?
Was she in the interogation business or was she some shithead Reservist Private that happened to be assigned to Abu?

You're a smart and rational person, don't tell me you consider Lyndie England to be in the business of interogation. Blair's comments were based off of Intel other than what Lyndie England could provide.

What makes the US not so special is history and research of it. The US is not without a history involving prisoners and what we did with them. -- #49 | Posted by Petrous

Yeah, I know. Gibbs is painting an ideal we haven't lived up to. But I don't think we should stop trying!

Petrous,

TLDNR. blah blah High school kids? yadda yadda.


fact is there is a general consensus in the intel community that the intel you get from torture is inaccurate and out of date. Believe that if yo want or do not it does not matter to me.

Was she in the interogation business or was she some shithead Reservist Private that happened to be assigned to Abu?-- #55 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I think some shitheads wear nice suits and rationalize their depravity more convincingly than England did.

You're a smart and rational person, don't tell me you consider Lyndie England to be in the business of interogation.

Beginning in 2004, accounts of abuse, torture, sodomy[1] and homicide[2] of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by personnel of the 372nd Military Police Company of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies.[3] These additional agencies have been referred to as the OGA (Other Government Agencies), which is an often-used euphemism for the Central Intelligence Agency. en.wikipedia.org

Cheney is feeling a little frightened that his actions may actually be investigated.
This use of torture to justify the invasion is pretty damning. I hope he gets what he richly deserves. Rummy and the rest too.

#57 | Posted by Salaryman

One of my clients is a partner in an information technology company. Kind of a deceptive name. They train interrogators. Interesting that something that doesn't work pays so well.

Well, what happens if its bad intel? Torture them again, but much more?... If you lie, that's going to make you pay even more. -- #54 | Posted by Petrous

You're kidding, right? Ahmed Chalabi

provided a major portion of the information on which U.S. Intelligence based its condemnation of Saddam Hussein, including reports of weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to al-Qaeda. Nearly all, if not all, of this information has turned out to be of questionable accuracy. That, combined with the fact that Chalabi subsequently boasted about the impact that their alleged falsifications in an interview with the British Sunday Telegraph, led to a falling out between him and the United States. en.wikipedia.org

So he must be in prison, or dead...? In fact, he was released, went back to Iraq, and became

interim oil minister in Iraq[2] in April-May 2005 and December-January 2006 and deputy prime minister from May 2005 until May 2006. Chalabi failed to win a seat in parliament in the December 2005 elections, and when the new Iraqi cabinet was announced in May 2006, he was not awarded a post.en.wikipedia.org

Don't misunderstand -- if memory serves, he was never tortured. But the suggestion that the Bush Administration policies, including those concerning torture, had anything to do with a concern for accurate info is laughable.

Interesting that something that doesn't work pays so well. -- #59 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

Yeah, I've thought the same thing of some banking CEO's/ CFO's.

By late 2001, the agency had contracted with Dr. James Mitchell, a psychologist with the SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape] program who had monitored mock interrogations but had never conducted any real ones, according to colleagues. He was known for his belief that a psychological concept called "learned helplessness" was crucial to successful interrogation.

Dr. Martin Seligman, a professor of psychology who had developed the concept, said in an interview that he was puzzled by Mitchell's notion that learned helplessness was relevant to interrogation.

"I think helplessness would make someone more dependent, less defiant and more compliant," Seligman said, "but I do not think it would lead reliably to more truth-telling."

Still, Mitchell, who declined to comment for this article, became a persuasive player in agency discussions about the best way to interrogate Qaida prisoners. Eventually, along with another former SERE psychologist, Bruce Jessen, Mitchell helped persuade CIA officials that Qaida members were fundamentally different from the myriad personalities the agency routinely dealt with.

"Jim believed that people of this ilk would confess for only one reason -- sheer terror," said one CIA official.

Overwhelmed with reports of potential threats, and anguished that the agency had failed to stop 9/11, Tenet and his top aides did not probe deeply into the prescription that Mitchell so confidently presented: using the SERE tactics on Qaida prisoners.

Some research on the origin of those methods would have given reason for doubt. Government studies in the 1950s found Chinese Communist interrogators produced false confessions from captured American pilots not with some kind of sinister "brainwashing" but with crude tactics: shackling the Americans to force them to stand for hours, keeping them in cold cells, disrupting their sleep and limiting access to food and hygiene.

"The Communists do not look upon these assaults as 'torture,' " one study concluded. "But all of them produce great discomfort, and lead to serious disturbances of many bodily processes; there is no reason to differentiate them from any other form of torture." Worse, the study found that under such treatment, a prisoner became "malleable and suggestible, and in some instances he may confabulate."

In late 2001, about a half-dozen SERE trainers, according to a report released Tuesday by the Senate Armed Services Committee, began raising stark warnings about plans by both the military and the CIA to use the SERE methods in interrogations. In December 2001, Lt. Col. Daniel J. Baumgartner of the Air Force, who oversaw SERE training, cautioned that physical pressure was "less reliable" than other interrogation methods, could backfire by increasing a prisoner's resistance and would have an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered." But his memo went to the Defense Department, not the CIA.
(Source:
www.heraldtribune.com)

See? Torture WERKS!

Three cheers for the Torture Party!

AMEN Danni I totally agree. Doubtful it comes to pass unfortunately. The Real criminals always escape punishment but the commoners always pay for theirs.

Larry

I think some shitheads wear nice suits and rationalize their depravity more convincingly than England did.

These are the people who need to be convicted. We ask enlisted people to commit barbaric acts every day. The chain of command and civilian authorities are supposed to make sure that the barbaric acts are confined to those that serve some higher purpose.

abu z was tortured

abu z while being tortured provided the intelligence that Iraq was working with AQ on Chemical WMD

This intelligence was used to justify the invasion of Iraq-Cheney's nexus.

We invaded Iraq and 100's of Iraqis have died and over 4,000 Americans have died.

Torture makes us less safe.

Truthhurts...Torture works. How does that make you feel?

Phoenix,
Lyndie England was nothing more than a Reservist shithead that preyed on the vulnerable Iraqi prisoners.
You don't believe Blair was refering to Lyndie Englands work when he claims that significant information was gleaned from the banned interogation techniques, do you?

fact is there is a general consensus in the intel community that the intel you get from torture is inaccurate and out of date.
#57 | Posted by Salaryman at 2009-04-22 12:14 PM | Reply |

Well somebody better tell the Intel CHIEF what the general consensus is...

Lyndie England was nothing more than a Reservist shithead that preyed on the vulnerable Iraqi prisoners.


Lyndie England was a scapegoat.


The Silence from the Right is deafening.

#4 | Posted by LarryMohr at


oh I dont think so buddy boy

not with news of the '2nd wave' and how info from water boarding helped to thwart that attack

and even obamas intelligence head says its so...even though it tries to get obama off the hook before he's through

I thought Abu Ghraib wasnt torture, that it was all good old fashioned hazing and all that.

nice to see you finally can recognize torture.

so you believe torture is all fine and dandy, than why not condone abu graib.

I would think that AG would be a great opportunity to get actionable intelligence since torture works, right? I mean you have lots of right off the street iraqis, some of them have got to have actionable intelligence, i mean we are saving US lives right, those iraqis certainly had intel on attacks against us soldiers. sooo come on wasnt Lyndie in the right for what she did?

so afkabull you were ok with Abu Ghraib?

not with news of the '2nd wave' and how info from water boarding helped to thwart that attack


and even obamas intelligence head says its so...even though it tries to get obama off the hook before he's through

Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-04-22 01:10 PM | Reply


You're so full of shit Your hair folicals are oozing brown. Waterboarding did no such thing. Nice try and trying to justifyying the Unjustifiable with Lies no less.

Larry

abu z while being tortured provided the intelligence that Iraq was working with AQ on Chemical WMD. This intelligence was used to justify the invasion of Iraq-Cheney's nexus. We invaded Iraq and 100's of Iraqis have died and over 4,000 Americans have died. -- #64 | Posted by truthhurts

abu z = Abu Zubaydah? The same guy the Bush Administration cites as the only example of someone who gave up useful info (purported LA plot) when tortured?

Good post, Truth.

For BLT

www.slate.com

What clinches the falsity of Thiessen's claim, however (and that of the memo he cites, and that of an unnamed Central Intelligence Agency spokesman who today seconded Thessen's argument), is chronology. In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever gotan unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.

"One of my clients is a partner in an information technology company. Kind of a deceptive name. They train interrogators. Interesting that something that doesn't work pays so well."

#59 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

Torture = Interrogation???

Are you just being obtuse or are you really develpmentaly chalenged?

Lyndie England was nothing more than a Reservist shithead that preyed on the vulnerable Iraqi prisoners... -- #67 | Posted by truthhurts

...with the knowledge of military superiors and CIA interrogators.

Lyndie England was a scapegoat. -- #67 | Posted by truthhurts

Yep. Shoulda been blonde.

I stand corrected Abu Z was not the source of the Iraqi-AQ connection, it was Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi]


sorry for the confusion.

en.wikipedia.org

Saudi royal family connections
According to Gerald Posner, Abu Zubaydah named several suspects that were never apprehended.[41] In particular, Posner notes that Zubaydah fingered three Saudi princes (including the King's nephew) and Pakistan's air force chief as his main contacts.[42] "Moreover, Zubaydah told American investigators that two of those he named -- and for which he provided their private telephone numbers -- had advance knowledge about the 9/11 attacks."[43] When the CIA contacted Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to inquire about the men, both countries responded within a week that they had investigated the matter and that the charges were false. Within months, all four died in what Posner indicates are suspicious circumstances. One CIA official told Posner, "It's interesting that we can't talk to most of the people that Zubaydah named because they all died after he told us about them.... But it does make a lot of us wonder what these people might have known about 9/11 and failed to tell us."[44]


[edit] Saudi and Kuwaiti bank records not searched
When Zubaydah was captured, he was carrying two bank cards (similar to American ATM cards), one from a bank in Kuwait and the other from a bank in Saudi Arabia. According to James Risen:

The discovery of Abu Zubaydah's cards provided some of the most tantalizing physical evidence ever uncovered related to al Qaeda. The cards had the potential to help investigators understand the financial structure behind al Qaeda, and perhaps even the 9/11 plot itself.... The cards had the potential to be keys that could unlock some of al Qaeda's darkest secrets. The cards "could give us entre right into who was funding al Qaeda, no link analysis needed," said one American source. "You could track money right from the financiers to a top al Qaeda figure." But something very odd happened .... There is little evidence that an aggressive investigation of the cards was ever conducted. Two American sources familiar with the matter say that they don't believe the government's top experts on terrorism financing have ever thoroughly probed the transactions in Abu Zubaydah's accounts or vigorously pursued the origins of the funds. It is not clear whether an investigation of the cards simply fell through the cracks, or whether they were ignored because no one wanted to know the answers about connections between al Qaeda and important figures in the Middle East -- particularly in Saudi Arabia.[45]
One of Risen's sources chalks up the failure to investigate the cards to incompetence rather than foul play: "The cards were sent back to Washington and were never fully exploited. I think nobody ever looked at them because of incompetence." When American investigators finally did get around to looking into the cards, they worked with "a Muslim financier with a questionable past, and with connections to the Afghan Taliban, al Qaeda, and Saudi intelligence." He reported back that "Saudi intelligence officials had seized all of the records related to the card from the Saudi financial institution in question; the records then disappeared. There was no longer any way to trace the money that had gone into the account. The timing of the reported seizure of records by Saudi intelligence closely coincided with the timing of Abu Zubaydah's capture...." (p. 177).



whose your bitches.

The same guy the Bush Administration cites as the only example of someone who gave up useful info (purported LA plot) when tortured?


How does that fit in with the former head of the CIA claiming torture yielded valuable information.

Well, like chairpuddles loves to say...Torture Werks!

yeah for the Torture Party! I bet you so proud!

yeah for the Torture Party! I bet you so proud!

Does that inlcude Harmon and Rockefeller?

How does that fit in with the former head of the CIA claiming torture yielded valuable information. -- #84 | Posted by crispee_oc

Well, it turns out it's not the same guy. Truth's point is still valid, though -- false "intel" from torture was used to make the case for invading Iraq. You've got to weigh failures like this against the purported successes when evaluating the effectiveness of torture.

And I still haven't heard evidence of a single success. Larry just destroyed the "LA plot" example. (#79 | Posted by LarryMohr)

And I still haven't heard evidence of a single success


I oppose torture to my very core, but you honestly will never hear of a successful case. It would help the terrorists figure out who, when, and where and also give them clues as to what else we may know.

..you honestly will never hear of a successful case. It would help the terrorists figure out who, when, and where and also give them clues as to what else we may know. -- #88 | Posted by kanrei

You think an administration that outed a CIA operative to punish her husband wouldn't trumpet a torture success if they had one?

And I still haven't heard evidence of a single success. Larry just destroyed the "LA plot" example. (#79 | Posted by LarryMohr)

#87 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 01:46 PM |

Interrogation is conducted by using such obvious approaches as asking questions whose correct answers are already known and only when truthful information is provided proceeding to what may not be known. Moreover, intelligence can be verified, correlated and used to get information from other detainees, and has been; none of this information is used in isolation.

The terrorist Abu Zubaydah (sometimes derided as a low-level operative of questionable reliability, but who was in fact close to KSM and other senior al Qaeda leaders) disclosed some information voluntarily. But he was coerced into disclosing information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which -- when combined with what was learned from Abu Zubaydah -- helped lead to the capture of KSM and other senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the U.S. Details of these successes, and the methods used to obtain them, were disclosed repeatedly in more than 30 congressional briefings and hearings beginning in 2002, and open to all members of the Intelligence Committees of both Houses of Congress beginning in September 2006. Any protestation of ignorance of those details, particularly by members of those committees, is pretense.online.wsj.com

#89 Yeah, I do. Cheney is a smart man, evil, but smart. He knows how to wage a PR war and knows the damage revealing a source providing you with the intell you want would cause. The CIA operative they outed was not giving them the intel they wanted to hear.

Interrogation is conducted by using such obvious approaches as asking questions whose correct answers are already known and only when truthful information is provided proceeding to what may not be known. Moreover, intelligence can be verified, correlated and used to get information from other detainees, and has been; none of this information is used in isolation.online.wsj.com --#90 | Posted by crispee_oc

WMD? Iraq-AQ link? C'mon.

Details of these successes, and the methods used to obtain them, were disclosed repeatedly in more than 30 congressional briefings and hearings... Any protestation of ignorance of those details, particularly by members of those committees, is pretense.online.wsj.com#90 | Posted by crispee_oc

I'm not pretending, really. Capturing 9/11 planners is not the same thing as preventing future acts, and I've seen nothing but vague statements in regard to the latter. Can you provide concrete examples of plots that were foiled? (The WSJ article doesn't.)

Cheney is a smart man, evil, but smart. He knows how to wage a PR war... -- #91 | Posted by kanrei

Exactly. If there were a success to report, he'd be singing it from the rooftops.

I'm not pretending, really. Capturing 9/11 planners is not the same thing as preventing future acts, and I've seen nothing but vague statements in regard to the latter. Can you provide concrete examples of plots that were foiled? (The WSJ article doesn't.)

According to the article these successful interrogations were brought up in Congressional committees and hearings. They also claim it did in fact prevent future acts.

Cheney is a smart man, evil, but smart. He knows how to wage a PR war... -- #91 | Posted by kanrei
Exactly. If there were a success to report, he'd be singing it from the rooftops.

#93 | POSTED BY PHOENIX AT 2009-04-22 02:06 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Not. Obama has not declassified it. WTF is he gonna do, leak and go to jail?

BO Admin is fucking this up, big time. If he doesn't want his guys to waterboard etc., fine. He shouldn't, however, be backward looking and prosecute.

If he does, next power swing to the republicans, his lawyers and people will face prosecutions for trampling all over the constitution and state's rights etc for any aggressive actions taking. The result will be a total pussification of advisors and presidents in connection with their agendas.

I think someone in BO's admin admitted that high quality intel came from the tactics. Why not declassify the memos on results???

If there were a success to report, he'd be singing it from the rooftops

#95 | Posted by somoco

THat is not what I said. You dropped the part of my quote that countered your point where I said: "and knows the damage revealing a source providing you with the intell you want would cause." This means I said Cheney WOULD out a CIA agent not going along, but would never out a terrorist who is giving information.

According to the article these successful interrogations were brought up in Congressional committees and hearings. They also claim it did in fact prevent future acts. -- #94 | Posted by crispee_oc

I know, I read the article.

(1) They include capturing 9/11 planners *after the fact* as an example of success.

(2) Why doesn't anyone claiming torture prevented a future attack cite a single example? (Saying someone else did, once, isn't enough.)

Torture is barbaric and a violation of international law. Torture of detainees not afforded habeas is a violation of our Constitution. If you want to make an "ends justifies the means" argument, you've got to make a convincing argument about the ends. So far we know not only that false intel from torture was used to justify a pointless war that has cost thousands of lives, has driven millions of innocent Iraqis from their homes, has further destabilized the Middle East and has strengthened terrorist recruitment, but also that eliciting this false intel was one of the Bush Administration's motives for torture.

Seems to me that the possibility of making any convincing argument for torture is getting smaller and smaller.

This means I said Cheney WOULD out a CIA agent not going along, but would never out a terrorist who is giving information. -- #96 | Posted by kanrei

I know. I was disagreeing with you. I take Cheney's repeated lies about an Iraq-AQ link as evidence that he would say or do pretty much anything to promote a policy he believed in.

know, I read the article.


(1) They include capturing 9/11 planners *after the fact* as an example of success.


(2) Why doesn't anyone claiming torture prevented a future attack cite a single example? (Saying someone else did, once, isn't enough.)


For example, the Post states:

Abu Zubaida quickly told U.S. interrogators of [Khalid Sheikh] Mohammed and of others he knew to be in al-Qaeda, and he revealed the plans of the low-level operatives who fled Afghanistan with him. Some were intent on returning to target American forces with bombs; others wanted to strike on American soil again, according to military documents and law enforcement sources. Such intelligence was significant but not blockbuster material. Frustrated, the Bush administration ratcheted up the pressure for the first time approving the use of increasingly harsh interrogations, including waterboarding.

This is either uninformed or intentionally misleading.

In fact, what Abu Zubaydah disclosed to the CIA during this period was that the fact that KSM was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks and that his code name was "Muktar" something Zubaydah thought we already knew, but in fact we did not. Intelligence officials had been trying for months to figure out who "Muktar" was. This information provided by Zubaydah was a critical piece of the puzzle that allowed them to pursue and eventually capture KSM. This fact, in and of itself, discredits the premise of the Post story to suggest that the capture of KSM was not information that "foiled plots" to attack America is absurd on the face of it.

The Post also acknowledges that Zubaydah's "interrogations led directly to the arrest of Jose Padilla" but dismisses Padilla as the man behind a fanciful "dirty bomb" plot and notes that Padilla was never charged in any such plot. In fact, Padilla was a hardened terrorist who had trained in al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, and was a protg of al Qaeda's third in command, Mohammed Atef. And when he was captured, Padilla was being prepared for a much more sinister and realistic attack on America.

More...

In June of 2001, Padilla met in Afghanistan with Atef, who asked him if he was willing to undertake a mission to blow up apartment buildings in the United States using natural gas. He agreed, and was sent to a training site near the Kandahar airport to prepare for the attack under close supervision of an al Qaeda explosives expert, who taught him about switches, circuits, and timers needed to carry it out. He was training in Afghanistan when Coalition forces launched Operation Enduring Freedom. Atef was killed by a Coalition airstrike, and Padilla joined the other al Qaeda operatives fleeing Afghanistan.

It was at this time that he met Abu Zubaydah, who helped arranged his passage across the Afghan-Pakistan border. At the time, Padilla told Zubaydah of his idea of a "dirty bomb" plot. Zubaydah was skeptical but sent him to see KSM, and told KSM he was free to use Padilla for his planned follow on operations in the U.S. Instead of the dirty bomb plot, KSM directed Padilla and an accomplice to undertake the apartment buildings operation for which he had initially trained. KSM's right-hand man, Ammar al Baluchi, gave Padilla $10,000 in cash, travel documents, a cell phone, and an email address to be used to notify al Baluchi once Padilla arrived in America. The night before his departure, KSM, al Baluchi, and KSM's nephew and 9/11 plotter Ramzi bin al Shibh hosted a farewell dinner for him and his accomplice. Think about that for a moment: Padilla was feted at a dinner the night of his departure for America by the mastermind of 9/11, and two of his key accomplices.

Padilla left Pakistan on April 5, 2002 bound for the U.S. by way of Zurich. En route, he spent a month in Egypt, and then arrived in Chicago's O'Hare airport on May 8 where he was apprehended because, even the Post acknowledges, of the information provided by Abu Zubaydah. At the time of his apprehension, he was carrying the $10,000 given him by his al Qaeda handlers, the cell phone, and the email address for al Baluchi. (For a detailed account of Jose Padilla's activities, see this speech by former Deputy Attorney General James Comey.

Phoen,
That was addressed to somoco. I know you disagree with me, but he thinks he agrees or atleast that is what I got from his post, and he doesn't.

So again, the premise of the Post story, is wrong.

Since his capture, Abu Zubaydah had provided the CIA with the critical link that had identified KSM as "Muktar" and the mastermind of 9/11, as well as information that led to the capture of Padilla and the disruption of a planned attack on the American homeland. The CIA knew he had more information that could save American lives, but now he had stopped talking. So the CIA used enhanced interrogation techniques to get him talking again and these techniques worked.

Zubaydah soon he began to provide information on key al Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th, including Ramzi bin al Shibh. At the time of his capture, bin al Shibh had been working in Karachi on follow-on operations against the West including a plot to hijack passenger planes in Europe and fly them into Heathrow airport. Bin al Shibh had identified four operatives for the operation, when he was taken into custody.

Together Zubaydah and bin al Shibh provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured KSM. KSM then provided information that led to the capture of a Southeast Asian terrorist named Zubair an operative with the terrorist network Jemmah Islamiyah, or JI. Zubair then provided information that led to the capture of a JI terrorist leader named Hambali KSM's partner in developing a plot to hijack passenger planes and fly them into the tallest building on the West Coast: the Library Tower in Los Angeles. Told of Hambali's capture, KSM identified Hambali's brother "Gun Gun" as his successor and provided information that led to his capture. Hambali's brother then gave us information that led us to a cell of JI operatives that were going to carry out the West Coast plot.

KSM also provided vital information that led to the disruption of an al Qaeda cell that was developing anthrax for attacks inside the United States. He gave us information that helped us capture Ammar al Baluchi. At the time of his capture, al Baluchi was working with bin al Shibh on the Heathrow plot, as well as a plot to carry out an attack against the US consulate in Karachi. According to his CIA biography, al Baluchi "was within days of completing preparations for the Karachi plot when he was captured."

I take Cheney's repeated lies about an Iraq-AQ link as evidence that he would say or do pretty much anything to promote a policy he believed in.

I take that and his outing of the CIA agent as evidence he would tell any lie and hurt anyone who stood in his way to promote a policy he believed in, but would not jeopardize at valued source.

We should agree to disagree on this one because it is all our thoughts and opinions and we are agreeing Cheney is an evil SOB, but just not on how his evil would work.

BO Admin is fucking this up, big time. If he doesn't want his guys to waterboard etc., fine. He shouldn't, however, be backward looking and prosecute. -- #95 | Posted by somoco

I doubt he'll prosecute. He shouldn't have said unequivocally that he wouldn't -- he's right to say it's Justice's call, not his.

He's a consummate politician, and has to know that prosecuting high-level Bush Administration officials will be divisive and will cost him politically.

We should agree to disagree on this one because it is all our thoughts and opinions and we are agreeing Cheney is an evil SOB, but just not on how his evil would work. -- #103 | Posted by kanrei

Oh, absolutely!

We also agree torture is wrong, regardless. Like I said earlier here, even if you get one guy to give you honest and useful information, how many innocent people did you have to torture to get it?

Obama will not prosecute, however I do see him helping the international court to gather evidence and I could also not see him helping out Bush if the International Courts do go after him.

How many Congressional hearings have they had on torture the last few years? The fact they have done nothing as far as any charges or prosecutions should be a hint. Of course both parties are 100% complicit which may also be why nothing has come forward.

Phoenix,
Waiting for your response to the plots uncovered.

#102 | Posted by crispee_oc

Thanks, Crispee. So this article cites a Heathrow plot, a Karachi plot, and the LA tower plot that were prevented by info from torture.

Larry has already shown that the L.A. plot was foiled *before* the torture occurred. (See #79 | Posted by LarryMohr.) I'll look for more info about the Heathrow and Karachi plots.

Even if the Heathrow and Karachi stories hold up, you still have to show that the plots would not have been stopped otherwise, and balance these "successes" against the false intel that led to the Iraq War.

Even if the Heathrow and Karachi stories hold up, you still have to show that the plots would not have been stopped otherwise, and balance these "successes" against the false intel that led to the Iraq War.

You seem to be changing the goalposts Phoenix. The fact they were stopped is more evidence to the contrary. Intel isn't just for thwarting plots. Here is the rest of the article


In addition, KSM and other senior terrorists helped identify individuals that al Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations, many of whom we had never heard about before. These included terrorists who were sent to case targets inside the United States, including financial buildings in major cities on the East Coast. They painted a picture of al Qaeda's structure and financing, and communications and logistics. They identified al Qaeda's travel routes and safe havens, and explained how al Qaeda's senior leadership communicates with its operatives in places like Iraq. They provided information that allowed the CIA to make sense of documents and computer records that we have seized in terrorist raids. They identified voices in recordings of intercepted calls, and helped us understand the meaning of potentially critical terrorist communications. It is the official assessment of our intelligence community that "Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al Qaeda and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland."

And the whole chain I have just described began with the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah.

The Left is desperate to discredit the efficacy of this program, and they have launched a desperate campaign to destroy it. Last week it was the leak of an ICRC document describing some of the techiques allegedly used in the program one of the most damaging leaks of classified information since the war on terror began because it allows al Qaeda to train against the techniques. And now we have this highly uninformed front-page story in the Washington Post. All of this is incredibly damaging to the security of the United States. And if America is attacked again, those responsible for the disclosure of this information will bear much of the blame.

...even if you get one guy to give you honest and useful information, how many innocent people did you have to torture to get it? -- #106 | Posted by kanrei

Yeah, I'm with you there. And the issue isn't just the innocent individuals who were tortured -- it licenses any number of other governments/agents to do the same thing.

There's supposed to be a difference between us and the bad guys.

Yeah, I'm with you there. And the issue isn't just the innocent individuals who were tortured -- it licenses any number of other governments/agents to do the same thing.


The techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation, and then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA. Of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program. Of those, fewer than one-third were subjected to any of the techniques discussed in these opinions. As already disclosed by Director Hayden, as late as 2006, even with the growing success of other intelligence tools, fully half of the government's knowledge about the structure and activities of al Qaeda came from those interrogations.

You seem to be changing the goalposts Phoenix.

I don't think I have -- go back to #47. I've been saying that far from meeting the criteria specified there, torture supporters have not even provided a single case where torture prevented another attack.

That WSJ article includes a lot of bad reporting and faulty analysis -- it includes the LA Library Tower plot, for example, which was foiled before the torture occurred. It also reports uncritically statements like "It is the official assessment of our intelligence community that "Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al Qaeda and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland."

But absolutely, let's see the evidence on Karachi and Heathrow.

But absolutely, let's see the evidence on Karachi and Heathrow.

Like what? You want the names of the assailants? The actual written plans? The fact they were captured may have been reason enough to call it off. The bottomline of the article says attacks were thwarted and valubale intel was collected because of their techniques.

The techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation... #113 | Posted by crispee_oc,

Crispee, honestly, don't you think the world deserves better than "Trust us... we only tortured a few really bad guys"?

And doesn't it bother you that this statement completely forgets the CIA's involvement in Abu Ghraib?

Phoenix is correct. There is no evidence that torture works. Nobody can point to a single attack that was prevented due to torture. Nobody can point to arrests that lead to convictions of terrorists based on info gleaned from torture. All we really have are a bunch of assertions from various wingnuts and interested parties insisting that it does work, really.
This is just another issue where rightwingers get to display their intellectual dishonesty, blind partisanship, and general stupidity.

There is no evidence that torture works.
#117 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-04-22 03:12 PM | Reply


Except for that pesky little fact that Obama's Intel Chief claims otherwise...

The group that continually carts out 2 bit players claiming torture doesn't work have the balls to claim that Obama's Intel Chief's assesment that it does work is bogus.

You guys are fucking gems.

...then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA.

Good that that link has been made explicit. Personally, I'm tired of seeing high-level officials get away with making scapegoats of the people following their orders.

...as late as 2006, even with the growing success of other intelligence tools, fully half of the government's knowledge about the structure and activities of al Qaeda came from those interrogations. -- #113 | Posted by crispee_oc

Much of Al Qaeda wouldn't exist today, and it certainly wouldn't have made a home in Iraq, if it weren't for the Bush Administration's Iraq War (See, e.g., news.bbc.co.uk)-- which they justified in part by false intel obtained through torture.

So Crispee is arguing opinions from Michael hayden and Mukaskey ones with a vested interest to make it appear that torture works because they were in the administration that authorized it?? Bwhahahahaha Thanks Crispee that's all I need to know. Do carry On.

Larry

There is no evidence that torture works.
#117 | Posted by moder8

Except for that pesky little fact that Obama's Intel Chief claims otherwise... -- #118 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I don't care what he believes unless he can provide evidence that he's right. He didn't.

You guys are fucking gems. -- #118 | Posted by 101Chairborne

[musical notes] I'm a little gem in geology...

I don't care what he believes unless he can provide evidence that he's right. He didn't.


#121 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 03:21 PM | Rep

Ahhh, but there's the catch. Cheney claims he wants Obama to release that info, will he?

Let me ask (actually re-ask)...What would Blair's motivation be for saying they garnered significant info from the banned techniques if we didn't actually garner significant info? Why would Blair (Obama's guy) give any credence to the previous admin's contention that torture (enhanced interrogation) worked and provided key intel?

I don't care what Obama's INTEL CHIEF has to say. Even though he researched it, and even though he's privy to all of the internal memos and results, he doesn't know what he's saying.
I know the truth though, and that's the fact that torture doesn't work, because if it worked I'd feel bad.
-Liberals

Does that about sum it up?

Nope. What would sum it up would be if you, or any other believer in torture, could actually point to a single planned terror act prevented, or terrorist arrested and convicted based on info gleaned from torture.

This is just another issue where rightwingers get to display their intellectual dishonesty, blind partisanship, and general stupidity.

#117 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-04-22 03:12 PM

How many hearings has the new majority held on torture? How many charges have you seen filed? What gives 8? If this is so cut and dry or a smokescreen by the repubs, why hasn't one single person from the White House to the CIA been indicted? I would also like to know if Harmon and Rockefeller are also blind partisan, dishonest, and generally stupid as well? Seeing as they were informed and signed off on the harsh tactics.

So Crispee is arguing opinions from Michael hayden and Mukaskey...#120 | Posted by LarryMohr

Sheesh... I didn't even notice that Crispee was citing an opinion piece written two Bush Administration officials (former CIA chief, former AG).


So Crispee is arguing opinions from Michael hayden and Mukaskey ones with a vested interest to make it appear that torture works because they were in the administration that authorized it?? Bwhahahahaha Thanks Crispee that's all I need to know. Do carry On.


Larry

Please see post #125.

Sheesh... I didn't even notice that Crispee was citing an opinion piece written two Bush Administration officials (former CIA chief, former AG).

You also ignorantly claimed nothing useful came from harsh interrogation. Keep hitching you cart to Larry's horse though.

Ahhh, but there's the catch. Cheney claims he wants Obama to release that info, will he? -- #122 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Yeah, THAT's interesting.

What would Blair's motivation be for saying they garnered significant info...

Like I said, who cares? The question is whether he's right or not, and he didn't provide a single shred of evidence.

I don't care what Obama's INTEL CHIEF has to say. Even though he researched it, and even though he's privy to all of the internal memos and results...#123 | Posted by 101Chairborne

We KNOW what his conclusions were -- he supported the policy. I want to see the evidence. We're being asked to support barbaric practices that violate both U.S. and international law. You don't think we deserve a lot more than "trust us... we know it works"?


Nope. What would sum it up would be if you, or any other believer in torture, could actually point to a single planned terror act prevented, or terrorist arrested and convicted based on info gleaned from torture.

#124 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-04-22 03:29 PM | Reply


Mod,
The man that is privy to such info (because you and I aren't) said it worked. Any other time an Obama appointee's word is golden with you sycophants, but mysteriously this guys isn't...Oh, because he said something you find icky...

Seriously, the hypocrisy is amazing. He's THE INTEL CHIEF. He is the HMFIC, and he's privy to the info. He took that info, digested it, and in a SECRET INTERNAL MEMO (that was leaked) claimed torure worked.
Seriously, what is it you fail to comprehend?

You don't think we deserve a lot more than "trust us... we know it works"?

... from the same administration who said "Trust us... there are WMD in Iraq"? "Trust us... we need $700B in bailout money by the end of the week"?

When the stakes are as high as they are in the torture debate, nobodies word is "golden". Only verified information. Because we have no way of knowing what agendas, what loyalties, or what self interests may come into play on such a sensitive topic.

How many hearings has the new majority held on torture? How many charges have you seen filed? -- #125 | Posted by crispee_oc

The burden of proof works the other way for me -- you want to commit barbaric acts that violate both domestic and international law, you better prove they're effective first. Waiting...

Like I said, who cares? The question is whether he's right or not, and he didn't provide a single shred of evidence.


#129 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 03:36 PM | Reply |


Now that's just pure stupidity. You don't care because you can't come up with any way to spin the facts to support your argument. The reason he claimed tortured worked is because torture worked.

If it didn't work, he and the admin would be flaunting that evidence and releasing it to the press, not announcing it worked in private memos.

The fact you feel you're entitled to top secret info is funny. Not as funny as claiming the Intel Chief doesn't know what he's talking about, but funny.


When the stakes are as high as they are in the torture debate, nobodies word is "golden". Only verified information. Because we have no way of knowing what agendas, what loyalties, or what self interests may come into play on such a sensitive topic.

#132 | Posted by moder8 at 2009-04-22 03:41 PM | Reply


What possible scenario can you see where Obama's hand picked Intel Chief would lie about torture in order to bolster Bush/Cheney's claim that torture worked and provided significant information?
It just doesn't pass the smell test. It's not like the guy was a hold-over. His hands are clean.

Waiting...

#133 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 03:42 PM | Reply


Wait no longer. Obama's intel chief answered your question. Torture works, just like it has through-out time.

The fact you feel you're entitled to top secret info is funny. -- #134 | Posted by 101Chairborne

The fact that you think the U.S. gov't should be able to torture illegally detained prisoners without so much as providing evidence that torture has ever worked ISN'T funny.


Blair characterized information obtained through torture in language that made it sound like filling in the boxes on an Al Qaeda table of organization. Absolutley nothing about a plots uncovered, attacks thwarted, or lives saved.


He also found the methods counterproductive, said there was no way to know if other methods might've revealed similar information, and said US national security can get along fine without torture, thank you very much.


#9 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

from the Cheney torture thread

What possible scenario can you see where Obama's hand picked Intel Chief would lie about torture in order to bolster Bush/Cheney's claim that torture worked and provided significant information?
It just doesn't pass the smell test. It's not like the guy was a hold-over. His hands are clean.

Exactomundo!!! There is no scenario. Just like there is no reason for Blair to lie as well. It is comical nobody wants to believe Obamas hand picked Intel man. They also can't acknowledge or accept the dems not only signing off on torture, but actually encouraging the tactics wondering if they go far enough.

...is funny. Not as funny as claiming the Intel Chief doesn't know what he's talking about... -- #134 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Well, I don't think that's funny, either. I think I'm in pretty good company.

Former US secretary of state Colin Powell says his United Nations speech making the case for the US-led war on Iraq was "a blot" on his record.

Mr Powell has also said that he had "never seen evidence to suggest" a connection between the September 11, 2001 terror attacks in the United States and the Saddam regime.

In the February 2003 presentation to the UN Security Council, Mr Powell forcefully made the case for war on the regime of Saddam Hussein, offering "proof" that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

The presentation included satellite photos of trucks that Mr Powell identified as mobile bioweapons laboratories.

After the invasion, US weapons inspectors reported finding no Iraqi nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.

In an interview with American ABC TV news to be broadcast on Friday (US time), Mr Powell said "it's a blot" on his record.

"I'm the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world, and (it) will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now," he said.

Mr Powell spent five days at the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) headquarters ahead of the speech studying intelligence reports, many of which turned out to be false. www.abc.net.au


"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

www.nytimes.com

The fact that you think the U.S. gov't should be able to torture illegally detained prisoners...
#137 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 03:47 PM

That pretty much sums up your political position. Ilegally detained prisoners? You make it sound like they were the victims and never should have been held.

from the Cheney torture thread

#138 | Posted by Corky at 2009-04-22 03:47 PM | Reply |


Why would you post that ridiculous shit over here? That clown thinks it "made it sound like"...Who cares what he thinks it sounded like?
Anyone that knows how to read knows it sounded exactly like "Torture worked. We garnered significant information from it".

As for the BS at the end...That's the damage control. His secret internal memo didn't need to include the Admin's "message", so it was blunt. When they realized it was made public they had to tailor the message to the admins stance on torture. I know you retards that are trying to save face and pretending it's something else aren't really retarded, you're just Obama whipped and blinded by an irrational hatred of Bush.

WASHINGTON President Obama's national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.
www.nytimes.com


Is this another Bush official Phoenix? So far that is Mukaksey, Hayden...

#140 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 03:51 PM | Reply |

Another non sequitur. What did Powell say about Blair? About Blairs secret memo? Nothing? Then why post it? Oh, because you still can't even suggest a plausible reason Blair would lie.

see #141

"... they are not essential to our national security."

But, they may be fun to do things for the whipped and blinded.

#141 | Posted by Corky at 2009-04-22 03:52 PM | Reply

Key words..."Issued last night".

That sounds better than "Issued as damage control after his true feelings in the internal memo surfaced".

Ilegally detained prisoners? You make it sound like they were the victims and never should have been held. -- #142 | Posted by crispee_oc

In many cases, that's turned out to be true.

But we're really disagreeing over what "defending the country" means. To me, it means defending the Constitution and the values we stand for. Instead, the Bush Administration defiled both.

You seem to think "defending the country" legitimizes *any* action that *might* save a single American life.

We've come a long way from "Give me liberty or give me death," haven't we?

That's a presumption on your part.

I think he's said that the techniques might have produced unique results, but we don't know that and we don't need them anyway.

That's pretty clear.


Now, if you want to force enemy combatants to read Aflacbibble's posts, I'm gong to call that going too far, too.

going going gong


That's a presumption on your part.


#149 | Posted by Corky at 2009-04-22 04:01 PM | Repl


It's beyond logical. Besides, why do you have a problem now with "presumption" when "it sounds like he's saying..." was fine 15 minutes ago?

Only a complete retard would believe that the world's most premiere intel agencies would still use torture techniques if they didn't work. The guy stated the obvious, and for some odd reason you guys will go to any lengths to pretend otherwise.

Now, if you want to force enemy combatants to read Aflacbibble's posts, I'm gong to call that going too far, too.


#150 | Posted by Corky at 2009-04-22 04:02 PM | Reply


There's no reason to use extreme examples to make a point!


Yeah, I like the way waterboarding worked 200 times on the same guy.....

Another non sequitur. What did Powell say about Blair?#145 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I thought it was a pretty good retort to your argument that I had some nerve doubting the conclusions of a CIA director.

...you still can't even suggest a plausible reason Blair would lie. -- #145 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I never said he lied -- unlike you, I haven't pretended to have any idea about what's going on in his head. (I only do that with Cheney ;-) )

I've been arguing that he didn't provide evidence to support his conclusion.


Ilegally detained prisoners? You make it sound like they were the victims and never should have been held. -- #142 | Posted by crispee_oc


In many cases, that's turned out to be true.


But we're really disagreeing over what "defending the country" means. To me, it means defending the Constitution and the values we stand for. Instead, the Bush Administration defiled both.


Using your standards, please provide the evidence of those many cases. You seem to insist it is only the Bush Administration to blame. Are you under the impression Congress had no knowledege or say in the matter?

I've been arguing that he didn't provide evidence to support his conclusion.

#155 | Posted by Phoenix at 2009-04-22 04:08 PM

By my definition you are calling him a liar.

Only a complete retard would believe that the world's most premiere intel agencies would still use torture techniques if they didn't work. -- #152 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Are you serious about any part of that statement?

#156
According to nancy pelosi, even when they did learn, it was done so confidentially that they couldn't mention it to anyone even if they did have reservations. Couldn't talk to any aides or lawyers or anybody. They were completely hogtied.

Are you under the impression Congress had no knowledege or say in the matter? -- #156 | Posted by crispee_oc

No; good point.

#159
Now, of course I take no joy in defending Pelosi, but from the way I heard her explain it, the administration would have prosecuted anyone who disclosed that information... Probably a hood over the head and a trip to gitmo. I think that she and others had an obligation to risk that, knowing what they did, but these folks are politicians first and foremost.

#156
According to nancy pelosi, even when they did learn, it was done so confidentially that they couldn't mention it to anyone even if they did have reservations. Couldn't talk to any aides or lawyers or anybody. They were completely hogtied.

Even when they did learn? Learn what? That the United States tortures? The dems signed off and wondered if the techniques were harsh enough. Does that sound like they didn't know? C'mon Hagbard.

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say

By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 9, 2007; Page A01

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

Congressional leaders from both parties would later seize on waterboarding as a symbol of the worst excesses of the Bush administration's counterterrorism effort. The CIA last week admitted that videotape of an interrogation of one of the waterboarded detainees was destroyed in 2005 against the advice of Justice Department and White House officials, provoking allegations that its actions were illegal and the destruction was a coverup.

With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).
www.washingtonpost.com

Hey I thought We had checks and balances. Since what Dubya was doing was Illegal the Administrations confidentiality I don't think could stand. Besides all Nancy Pelosi was conserned about was fgeeding more dollars to Her and Her Hubbys business dealings. Thats MY Opinion only.

Larry

Besides all Nancy Pelosi was conserned about was fgeeding more dollars to Her and Her Hubbys business dealings. Thats MY Opinion only.


Larry

Yet you have only asked for anyone associated with Bush or Cheney to be hanged by the neck?

Yet you have only asked for anyone associated with Bush or Cheney to be hanged by the neck?

Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-04-22 04:24 PM | Reply

The last time I checked the CIA was in direct control by Dubya and CHeney as well as the Military. or did I miss something along the way??

Larry

Laterz I have a "Date" with a Lawnmower. Damned global Warming(Summer)

The last time I checked the CIA was in direct control by Dubya and CHeney as well as the Military. or did I miss something along the way??


Larry

You missed something Larry. Take a moment and read the article. It may remove those blinkers you have been wearing.


U.S. law requires the CIA to inform Congress of covert activities and allows the briefings to be limited in certain highly sensitive cases to a "Gang of Eight," including the four top congressional leaders of both parties as well as the four senior intelligence committee members. In this case, most briefings about detainee programs were limited to the "Gang of Four," the top Republican and Democrat on the two committees. A few staff members were permitted to attend some of the briefings.


We launch a pre-emptive war and then order torture to find proof the war was justified.

What the hell happened to this country? How is this not being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law?


We launch a pre-emptive war and then order torture to find proof the war was justified.


What the hell happened to this country? How is this not being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law?

Posted by rcade at 2009-04-22 07:36 PM | Reply


Wished I knew Boss wished I knew.

We launch a pre-emptive war and then order torture to find proof the war was justified.


Nice play on words. How does the timeline work?


WASHINGTON The Bush administration applied relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.

Such information would've provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush's main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. In fact, no evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden's terrorist network and Saddam's regime.

"Former Vice President Dick Cheney and others who advocated the use of sleep deprivation, isolation and stress positions and waterboarding, which simulates drowning, insist that they were legal."NYT

Bush Cheney and the other members of the junta should all be interrogated using waterboarding and other techniques. Since these techniques are in their view legal, they could not possibly object to using them in q&A sessions.

Well with enough "stimulation", I'm sure they got it.

Maybe thats what the rightards are talking about when they mention Al Q & Saddam?

You can be sure the righties are worried about the possibility of justice being done because Joe Scarborough is losing his mind over this...just rants and rants like he's about to wet his pants....MSNBC needs to pull the plug on that loser.

"""Admiral Blair's assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001...."""

If it was so important, why not make the demonstration of how valuable it was? What was this information and was it worth enough for the u.s. to turn its back on its values and soil its image across the planet? Was it worth it considering the fact that u.s. torture became the biggest recruitment campaign for islamic extremists?

Of course those who had their hands on the stick will defend their approach, but the fact that the u.s. prosecuted and jailed japanese soldiers for waterboarding pows in the 40s creates an untenable paradox in their position.

One reason we haven't heard from GWB and others in his administration that are culpable on this issue may be due to them not wanting to piss off the only person that can save their collective butts: Obama.

Cheney, on the other hand senses his own mortality; his pace maker could fail any day. He probably figures that he wouldn't be around long enough to deal with the fallout from any investigations.

Isn't it amazing that 95% of the stuff the left here was saying about Iraq and the bush admin turned out to be true?

Think about that, righties...think about it next time you tell us how full of shit we are.

Torture Used to Seek Saddam/Al Qaeda Link

It's really starting to fit together. I guess 'legalizing' Chicom torture methods had its own odd rationale in the minds of these thugs.

You can be sure the righties are worried about the possibility of justice being done because Joe Scarborough is losing his mind over this...just rants and rants like he's about to wet his pants....MSNBC needs to pull the plug on that loser.


Yes you are right. MSNBC should pull the plug on the only show on the network that gets ratings. Imelt and Zucker have taken GE into the shitter.

I hope Holder does try to prosecute Bush. The guy is a terrorist sympathizer. At least he is consistent.

Your duckspeak is doubleplusgood, TimBCI.

poor, poor terrorists and enemy combatants. They just need a hug and a pat on the back... soooo mis-understood... big bad mean U.S. bad, bad U.S.

#180
Is that how you see it? You're missing the whole point. We are allegedly the greatest nation on earth (we tell everyone else that and for some reason it pisses the off a little) and yet we reduce ourselves to torturing people. Great nations don't use torture, ever. They set a good example for the rest of the world to emulate. They get the rest of the world to want to be their friend. Torture is for barbarians.

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."


wow, our image is really hurt huh? news flash... the world hated us before this and will hate us long after. I see Obama is getting all kinds of help from the "world"... you people are clueless....

Is that how you see it? You're missing the whole point. We are allegedly the greatest nation on earth (we tell everyone else that and for some reason it pisses the off a little) and yet we reduce ourselves to torturing people. Great nations don't use torture, ever. They set a good example for the rest of the world to emulate. They get the rest of the world to want to be their friend. Torture is for barbarians.


No, running 2 planes into the trade center and killing thousands of Americans is barbaric. if this so-called torture saved 1 U.S. life then I'm all for it... I hardley consider water boarding and sleep deprivation torture (no matter how many times they were doen). Now, produce some evidence that we were cutting peoples fingers off and gouging out eyes and maybe you have somewhat of a point...


But Dick told us there is a link
Would this man ever lie?

To argue "torture works" and that it is acceptable for the US to do it, is also to accept that it be done by other countries, groups and individuals elsewhere in the world to US citizens and anyone else. And of course, when does torturing for information become torturing for vengeance or just sadistic pleasure?

To reduce world affairs to who can torture the best, is to advocate for the return of world wide "Spanish Inquisition" type methods to achieve objectives. If it is acceptable for countries, why not states, provinces, police, religious groups, local councils, school boards, parent and teachers associations?

To argue "torture works" and that it is acceptable for the US to do it, is also to accept that it be done by other countries, groups and individuals elsewhere in the world to US citizens and anyone else. And of course, when does torturing for information become torturing for vengeance or just sadistic pleasure? To reduce world affairs to who can torture the best, is to advocate for the return of world wide "Spanish Inquisition" type methods to achieve objectives. If it is acceptable for countries, why not states, provinces, police, religious groups, local councils, school boards, parent and teachers associations?

your problem is you think that terrorists think like a rational person and that logic applies. This is a different kind of enemy.. i feel sorry for you...

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