First off, this guy has less credibility than a Nixon clone selling used Pintos from the back of a truck.

Secondly, Obama never claimed that torture does not produce information some of which may be actionable.

The idea that America, in becoming an open torture state with it's highest officials arguing for it's inclusion as a weapon of statecraft, has not earned the US any fewer enemies on the planet is patently false. The indefensible practise has lost the US a great deal of support from it's long time allies and embiggened global anti-American sentiments and the numbers of people who wish to do the US harm thus Obama's "did not make us safer" statement is quite correct.

Thirdly, the so-called plots that this torture allegedly prevented from occuring are impossible to prove as real. Spud could just as well claim to own a magic stick that has prevented the US from being over-run by Wildebeasts and expect to be believed.

Finally, Torture is wrong. Doesn't matter whether it works or not. It's morally indefensible under any and all circumstances.

Let the bashing begin!

Be Well.

Torture was used to generate intelligence that was used to justify the invasion of Iraq.

torture makes us less safe

Torture was used to generate intelligence that was used to justify the invasion of Iraq.

torture makes us less safe

~Truthhurts

Dammit Truth, why do you insist on bringing intelligence and rationality to this thread?

Aren't you afraid they will die of loneliness and neglect?

^_^

Spud set this thread up specifically as a troll to encourage bloodthirsty, soul-dead Rtards to come out from under their rocks and try to out-Torquemada this rethug shill and rightwing think tank hack, not so that there could be any substantive and rational debate on the subject!

Meh, cos we're already going down that road Spud'll repeat another spuddism.

If you have to stoop to the level of your enemy in order to defeat your enemy then you have already lost what it was you thought you were defending.

/Meh, flame wars is funner than serious discourse! :>(

Be Well.

darn sorry to spring your trap the wrong way.

Torture works great!
For gaining false confessions from 14 year old goat herders.

Cheney now claims there are classified documents which indicate torture works and says he has asked that they be declassified. I have a sneaking suspicion that Cheney knows they won't declassify such documents and thus can claim they say anything he wants.

Torture works so good that they waterboarded that one guy over 200 times. I'm wondering why he didn't just spill all the beans at one time or if he lied 279 times and only told the truth on the last water boarding.

A SPEECH Writer?

Seriously?

In other news:

"Cheney had claimed on Fox, 'I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions.'"

"'Regarding Vice President Cheney's request to declassify other memos, a senior intelligence official tells NBC News that the CIA has received no such request from the vice president,' NBC's Andrea Mitchell reported"

Had this schmuck claimed torture didn't work you retards would be singing his praises and using his ties to the Bush Admin as a plus.

darn sorry to spring your trap the wrong way.

~TruthHurts

Is OK. Looks like the rtards are too wiley to fall into Spud's trap today anyway.

Either that or they are all still posting on the Carrie Prejean thread.

Using only one hand while typing up posts does tend to draw the procedure out, somewot.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Cheney knows they won't declassify such documents and thus can claim they say anything he wants.

~Danni

Danni, are you accusing Dick Cheney of being a devious bastard?

Why so cynical?

"Torture works so good that they waterboarded that one guy over 200 times."

Maybe that means waterboarding isn't torture. I can think of at least 100 things I'd pick waterboarding over.

For gaining false confessions from 14 year old goat herders.

#5 | Posted by JeffnDenmark

And cab drivers. And a 90 yr old man. dems some hardened criminals right there.

I have it on good advice that a 90 yr old terrorist has left Omaha Nebraska with a rascal scooter full of explosives and is headed for LA. He should be there in 3 or 4 weeks.

"Cheney had claimed on Fox, 'I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos..."

PS: I'm pretty sure The Dick doesn't have any authority to formally ask any government agency to do anything. I believe he'd have to go through the FOIA like any other citizen.

For the record, Cheney needs to go away and realize he's supposed to be out of the spotlight right now.

If it was wrong for Carter, it's wrong for Cheney.

A SPEECH Writer?

Seriously?

~San Antonio Rogue

Some shit Spud simply can't make up.

FTFA: The writer, a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution, served in senior positions in the Pentagon and the White House from 2001 to 2009, most recently as chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush.

The Hoover Institution like the Vacuum cleaner it's presumably named after... SUCKS!

Be Well.

A SPEECH Writer?

Seriously?

~San Antonio Rogue

Some shit Spud simply can't make up.

FTFA: The writer, a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution, served in senior positions in the Pentagon and the White House from 2001 to 2009, most recently as chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush.

The Hoover Institution like the Vacuum cleaner it's presumably named after... SUCKS!

Be Well.

Double post?

Damnit! Spud musta been channeling Danni there.

/Yes, Spud knows it was a long time ago that used to happen.

//Just sayin'!

Be Well.

PS: I'm pretty sure The Dick doesn't have any authority to formally ask any government agency to do anything. I believe he'd have to go through the FOIA like any other citizen.

#13 | Posted by SanAntonioRogue

No. He just walks down the street from his house to CIA Headquarters.

Or do you think he moved next to the CIA for the scenery?

"I can think of at least 100 things I'd pick waterboarding over.

#11 | Posted by JOE

How would you know if you've never been waterboarded, stupid?

Maybe that means waterboarding isn't torture.

Joe's repeating Limpo sound bytes now?

Joe FAILs.

I can think of at least 100 things I'd pick waterboarding over

Is reading one of yer Stupid Joe-posts on that list?

Cos that's just after waterboarding on Spud's list.

Be Well.

"How would you know if you've never been waterboarded, stupid?"

Call it a wild guess. I'd rather be waterboarded than have my hand cut off. I'd rather be waterboarded than have my toenails ripped out. I'd rather be waterboarded than have a flame held up to my eyeball.

There are some things you just "know" would hurt or be more uncomfortable than others. I've never had my hand run over by a truck, but that doesn't mean I don't know that it would hurt more than something else.

How would you know if you've never been waterboarded, stupid?

#19 | Posted by nullifidian

I'm against waterboarding for moral reasons. But that is a slippery slope. If you haven't been waterboarded then how do you know anything either way?

If Joe doesn't know anything because he hasn't been waterboarded then I agree but doesn't that standard apply to everyone NOT been waterboarded.

"Joe's repeating Limpo sound bytes now?"

The only person repeating anything is you - are you capable of discussing anything without parroting the lefty obsession with talk radio hosts?

I never said waterboarding isn't torture. I said maybe it isn't. Seems odd that it'd take over 200 instances of any kind of torture before someone started talking - so maybe that means it isn't torture after all. Is that so offensive to your ideology that you can't see the simple point being made?

Since when did libertarians start making excuses for torture? Or maybe Joe is a actually a libertardian.

Based on my experience, cops tend to get more information with honey than with fire from most people accused of crimes. And once the cops do hear the truth after using threats and other forms of verbal coercion, they usually don't believe it.

"Seems odd that it'd take over 200 instances of any kind of torture before someone started talking....

#23 | Posted by JOE at 2009-04-21 05:01 PM"

Unless the victim being tortured had nothing to talk about, of course.

"I'd rather be waterboarded than have my hand cut off."

That's a bogus comparison. That's decapitation. One can think of thousands of terrible tortures. Just ask the Catholic Church. But without experiencing waterboarding your statements are just ignorant.

Now, you stop and think about this: 183 times, six times a day, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was waterboarded. His lawyers never complained. He didn't complain to whatever civil rights organizations there were. And I'll tell you, the bottom -- if somebody can be water-tortured six times a day, then it isn't torture. Can we just establish that?

~Rush Limpo

I never said waterboarding isn't torture. I said maybe it isn't. Seems odd that it'd take over 200 instances of any kind of torture before someone started talking - so maybe that means it isn't torture after all.

~Libertarian Lawyer Joe.

If you don't understand that waterboarding is torture and has been for centuries then you apparently have an inability to think that Spud just can't help you with.

I'd rather be waterboarded than have my hand cut off.

If you were waterboarded enuff you'd cheerfully agree to have yer hands cut off if it would be the trade off fer the waterboarding to stop.

People in Gitmo tried to kill themselves by slashing their wrist swith sharpened thumbnails.

That wasn't cos the food was bad.

Be Well.

"Unless the victim being tortured had nothing to talk about, of course."

In this case, the guy did have something to talk about. And it took hundreds of waterboardings to make him talk. My only point is that perhaps waterboarding isn't as bad as some may think if someone can withstand that much of it before finally giving the information they have. It's either not torture, or not an effective method of it.

"If you were waterboarded enuff you'd cheerfully agree to have yer hands cut off if it would be the trade off fer the waterboarding to stop."

I suppose I opened the door to that with my own speculation, but I disagree.

If you were waterboarded enuff you'd cheerfully agree to have yer hands cut off if it would be the trade off fer the waterboarding to stop.

How would you know if you haven't been waterboarded??

-Nullifidian

People in Gitmo tried to kill themselves by slashing their wrist swith sharpened thumbnails.

That wasn't cos the food was bad.

Perhaps but how do you know it was directly tied to the waterboarding? Wasn't there other types of mistreatment going on?

Are you sure that if waterboarding had been removed then those detainees wouldn't have attempted suicide anyway?

"I'd rather be waterboarded than have my hand cut off."

That's a bogus comparison. That's decapitation.

Umm. No it isn't.

Let's continue to waterboard because it might not contribute to suicide? Huh?

"#31 | Posted by eberly

Not quite, Eberly. You don't have to experience waterboarding to preferring it to having your hand chopped off. Amputation is permanent. Anyone would choose the former. At first.

"Waterboarding isn't so abd as some think...."

So, the standard for torture is how much someone can take? The word sadism has lost it's meaning.

"I'd rather be waterboarded than have my hand cut off."

That's a bogus comparison. That's decapitation. .

#27 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-04-21 05:13 PM |

LOL. No it's not, nullbrain

That was a good one.

"Umm. No it isn't."

Yes it is bogus, because you're comparing permanent amputation to a temporary period of torture. As far as I know, waterboarding causes no permanent physical damage.

"#37 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-21 05:46 PM | "

Obviously I meant amputation and corrected that error, Goattroll.

"So, the standard for torture is how much someone can take?"

No. That's why I said "maybe" it isn't torture. The fact that it doesn't work, or takes hundreds of tries before it works, is one element that points to it not being torture.

"Is one element to it not being torture...."

Where does the cruelty element enter in, to include the fact the victim has no way in hell to escape or defend himself?

I'd say if he was Bush's speechwriter he's guilty of torturing the English language.

In releasing highly classified documents on the CIA interrogation program last week, President Obama blah blah blah fucking blah...

~Right Wing Hack

Here's how you know yer dealing with a right wing hack. When they continually refer to obviously DECLASSIFIED and redacted document as "highly classified".

Many on FOX plus, of course, Plush Blimpo are deliberately making this error.

Speaking of errors.

Seems odd that it'd take over 200 instances of any kind of torture before someone started talking...

#23 ~Joe

No, wot's "odd" is that you assume that it took 200 sessions in order fer KSM to start talking.

Spud assumes that he was talking after the first application and continued to talk throughout the numerous sessions.

Spud bases this in the fact that in order fer KSM to talk they kinda hafta stop drowning him and let him breath a little which, any sane person will admit, is the preffered option.

The trouble with torture is not only the ethical considerations which Spud finds paramount here but also the question of misinformation. When McCain was tortured by the VC he sed, in his book, that he still had the presence of mind to provide false and useless imformation to his captors.

Who's to say that KSM didn't do the same thing?

The same people who until this documentation was released only admitted to waterboarding KSM for "2 and 1/2 minutes"?

Also, wot if you've told yer captors all you actually do know and they think you still have more info to tell them? When do they stop? When yer dead? After they've tortured you into confessing wotever the fuck you think they want to hear despite having just made the shit up?

See the problem?

Be Well.

Obama should release all of the documents associated w/ waterboarding. This would allow a comprehensive review of the methods and the information received.

"No, wot's "odd" is that you assume that it took 200 sessions in order fer KSM to start talking.
Spud assumes that he was talking after the first application and continued to talk throughout the numerous sessions."

I see. So, my assumptions are "odd," and your assumptions are presumptively correct. Any other rules I should know about?

"Cheney now claims there are classified documents which indicate torture works and says he has asked that they be declassified. I have a sneaking suspicion that Cheney knows they won't declassify such documents and thus can claim they say anything he wants.
Posted by Danni"

FAIL.

According to the New York Times, President Obama's national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

FAIL.

No Joe, You FAIL. Again.

"'Regarding Vice President Cheney's request to declassify other memos, a senior intelligence official tells NBC News that the CIA has received no such request from the vice president,' NBC's Andrea Mitchell reported"

#8 | Posted by SanAntonioRogue

Danni asserted that Cheney's claims that he's demanded certain classified ducuments that "indicate torture works" declassifed has been proven false.

Your post which manages to dig up an ass-covering spook claiming that "valuable information" was garnered by these unjustifiable actions doesn't do a single damn thing to disprove Danni's assertion.

Neither does this article claiming actionable intel was garnered fer that matter.

Are you sure you don't wanna sue that "School fer Gud Lawyerin'" you went to fer gross incompetence?

Be Well.

This guy is so full of shit. You can't tell truth from "relief" lies when torture is utilized.

Most would cop to the Kennedy assasination if they were tortured.

"Your post which manages to dig up an ass-covering spook claiming that "valuable information" was garnered by these unjustifiable actions doesn't do a single damn thing to disprove Danni's assertion.
Neither does this article claiming actionable intel was garnered fer that matter."

This information is coming from Obama's national intelligence director. How is he an "ass covering spook?" He wouldn't need to cover his ass with regard to torture - he became National Intelligence Director in January of 2009. You are a fucking tool.

Danni said Cheney was talking out of his ass about memos that said torture works. Obama's National Intel Director now says that torture works. This means Danni was wrong in that Cheney clearly was not talking out of his ass.

Political expendiency does not make it right.

Danni said Cheney was talking out of his ass about memos that said torture works. Obama's National Intel Director now says that torture works. This means Danni was wrong in that Cheney clearly was not talking out of his ass.

#50 | Posted by JOE at 2009-04-22 11:55 AM | Reply

Where is the "torture doesn't work" crowd?
I believe they're all trying to spin "torture doesn't work" in to "I nver said it doesnt work, I just don't believe we should use it".

two questions:
1) do terrorists qualify as POW's under the Geneva convention? Read it, then tell me where they fit.
2) does water boarding, a technique that induces fear, a resonse to percieved threat of pain, qualify as torture under the definition provided in the UN Convention against torture "causing severe pain or suffering".

Torture is wrong. It should never happen. We are more civilized than that. Just look at how nicely we treat conservatives.

--- The Left ---

During the Korean war, our guys were tortured, not to gain military info, but to get false confessions for propaganda. We (US Marines) were give training on how to handle torture. The trainer (a MSgt) told us "unlike some of our enemies we do not torture, we are Americans, we should be proud of that". If he was around today, some would get their butts kicked very hard. We are Americans, we don't do that, got it?

Why are libs afraid of the truth? Torture works!

Why are libs afraid of the truth? Torture works!

At getting people to say anything, whether it's true or false, to make the torture stop.

Waterboarding is not torture. Let's see the results! Not one sided spin from the failing BSNBC.

"Waterboarding is not torture."

It was during WWII; we know because we prosecuted Japanese for it.

Specifically, what date did it stop being torture?

"Why are libs afraid of the truth? Torture works!"

couldn't resist being the idiot, huh?

We are Americans, we don't do that, got it?

The Torture Never Stops
Zappa

Flies all green and buzzin'
In this dungeon of despair
Prisoners grumblin
Piss they clothes
Scratch their matted hair
A tiny light from a window-hole
Hundred yards away
That all they ever get to know
'bout the regular life in the day
'bout the regular life in the day

Slime and rot and rats and snot
Vomit on the floor
Fifty ugly soldier men
Holdin' spears by the iron door
Stinks so bad, stones are chokin'
Weepin' greenish drops
In the den where
The giant fire puffer woiks
And the torture never stops
The torture never stops, torture
The torture never stops
The torture never stops

Flies all green and buzzin'
In this dungeon of despair
An evil prince eats a steamin' pig
In a tumbers right near there
In the chambers right near there
He eats de snouts an trotters first!
The loins and the groins are then dispersed
His carvin style is well rehearsed
He stands and shouts
All men be cursed (4x)
And disagree it, well no one durst
He the best of cause of all the woist
Best of cause of all the woist

He stinks so bad his stones been chokin'
Weepin' greenish drops
In the room with the iron maiden
And the torture never stops, torture
Torture never stops
Torture never stops, torture
Torture never stops

Flies all green and buzzin'
In dungeon of despair
Who are'll those people
That is shut away down there
Are they crazy
Are they sainted
Are they heroes someone painted
Someone painted
Are they -isms
Later ornated
Once they come they have been tainted
Once they come they have been tainted
Never been explained
Since at first it was created
But a dungeon and his kin'
Require naught but lockin' in
Of any anything thats been
Could be a her but it's probly a him
Could be a her but it's probly a him
Its what's the deal were dealin' in
Its what's the deal were dealin' in
An he stinks so bad it's hurt
To the pearl and the piles of blast
Any dungeon have a trailer
Were the torture never stops, torture
Torture never stops
Torture never stops, torture
Torture never stops
Torture never stops, talkin' to you
Torture never stops

i cannot comprehend any debate in this issue/case over whether or not torture works. and of course saying "it works" cannot possibly mean all the time as is implied. no matter, stop wasting our time because:

we DO NOT torture.

Eight years between WTC attack 1 and WTC attack 2. Therefore since they haven't attacked for the last seven years it must be because BushCo adopted torture and then lied about it. Wire tapping Congress was equally effective in paralyzing al Qaida.

here's a better, more recent look at where we are as a people, and it isn't because of any lack of religion or "God in government," quite the opposite, imnsho. the operative word here? "murder," we were previously, i thought, discussing that... are we going backwards or just in circles?

recognize this one?

THE FUTURE

Give me back my broken night
my mirrored room, my secret life
it's lonely here,
there's no one left to torture
Give me absolute control
over every living soul
And lie beside me, baby,
that's an order!

Give me crack and anal sex
Take the only tree that's left
stuff it up the hole
in your culture
Give me back the Berlin wall
give me Stalin and Saint Paul
I've seen the future, brother:
it is murder.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard, the blizzard of the world
has crossed the threshold
and it has overturned
the order of the soul.

When they said REPENT REPENT
I wonder what they meant
When they said REPENT REPENT
I wonder what they meant
When they said REPENT REPENT
I wonder what they meant.

You don't know me from the wind
you never will, you never did
I was the little jew
who wrote the Bible
I've seen the nations rise and fall
I've heard their stories, heard them all
but love's the only engine of survival
Your servant here, he has been told
to say it clear, to say it cold:
It's over, it ain't going
any further
And now the wheels of heaven stop
you feel the devil's RIDING crop
Get ready for the future:
it is murder.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard, the blizzard of the world
has crossed the threshold
and it has overturned
the order of the soul.

There'll be the breaking of the ancient
western code
Your private life will suddenly explode
There'll be phantoms
There'll be fires on the road
and a white man dancing.
You'll see a woman
hanging upside down
her features covered by her fallen gown
and all the lousy little poets
coming round
tryin' to sound like Charlie Manson
and the white man dancin'.

Give me back the Berlin wall
Give me Stalin and St Paul
Give me Christ
or give me Hiroshima
Destroy another fetus now
We don't like children anyhow
I've seen the future, baby:
it is murder.

Things are going to slide ...

When they said REPENT REPENT ...

Waterboarding is not torture.

So if American service people are taken by terrorist types and waterboarded into insensibility and madness or even unto death that's perfectly okay with you?

Wow, just wow.

Yer a fucking moron and a Nazi in training.

Why are libs afraid of the truth? Torture works!

Has everyone who's ever been tortured in the history of mankind managed to hold out and not reveal any truth to their captors?

Of course not, people break down and talk.

So in that sense torture does indeed work. Nobody is trying to deny that basic reality. That sed, wot else does torture do? It makes people tell lies in order to stop being hurt. It makes people make false confessions. It dehumanises those who do the torture. It creates fear that allows authoritarian governments to suppress the people and exploit them. It destroys credibility when speaking of other people's human rights abuses. It creates rifts with once staunch allies. It creates more extremist enemies while disenfranchising the forces of moderation.

On the whole the gains made by torture are far outweighed by what is lost.

Once you start rationalising the need for torture on foreign enemies the next step historically is for the government to start using torture on its own people.

Are you okay with yer fellow citizens being dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and tortured into insensibility or unto death?

Or are you more humane, more civilised than that?

America recieved a great deal of global sympathy and support after 9/11. Since the story of the use of torture approved by the highest level of the American government came out that sympathy has all but disappeared.

If another 9/11 occurs what should the world's reaction be?

Another outpouring of sympathy or "Good, the bastards deserved it"?

People lead by example.

Nations lead by example.

"Do as I say not as I do" simply doesn't work.

Not with kids, not with civilised people, not with nations.

Learn that.

Be Well.

Zappa and Cohen FTW!

Thanx Ichiro and Goat.

That did Spud's soul good.

Laws yes!

Be Well.

Waterboarding is not torture.

So if American service people are taken by terrorist types and waterboarded into insensibility and madness or even unto death that's perfectly okay with you?

Wow, just wow.

Yer a fucking moron and a Nazi in training.

Actually many American special forces have been waterboarded as part of their training.

VMI used to waterboard the plebes their Freshman year as part of a hazing ritual.

With a name like Ichiro I would think you opinion would be rather different. The Japanese were master of torture techniques

Torture Works. Terrorists who take American hostages, take note.

Where have you been. The American Embassy hostages were tortured by Iranians.

Daniel Pearl was murdered and American hostages have been beheaded.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

Where have you been. The American Embassy hostages were tortured by Iranians.

The same Iranians who Ronald Reagan sold arms to right after the hostage crisis ended?

The proceeds of which went towards supplying arms bought by Ollie North (Another War Criminal, btw) to the Contras who used their strength of arms to torture inumerable citizens of Latin America in the name of fighting communism despite the fact that that assertion was a lie?

Be Well.

Ollie Crime was waterboarded as part of his military training. By the way, Ollie North's convictions were vacated on appeal. He is not a war criminal.

The amount of collateral damage that the Contras caused pales in comparison to the amount of people around the world that Che Guevara was directly responsible for killing.

Timbci-
The SERE program was intended to give our military a taste of what an immoral Communist regimes would do to them to illicit false confessions.

SO either America tortured its own military and committed war crimes and waterboarding is not torture

Timbci-
Under the Bush administration, we adopted the torture methods of the Chicoms and secretly decided that they were legal.

Ollie North as well as thousands of other special forces were waterboarded long before Bush was ever elected.

TIMBCI-
Do you understand the difference between having fellow soldiers conduct a mock interrogation and actually being held prisoner?

Do you know your asshole from a hole in the ground?

I'll give some time to ponder each question... as it seems that you require it, Timbci.

"I'll give some time to ponder each question... as it seems that you require it, Timbci."

correction:
I'll give some time to ponder each question... as it seems that you require it, "T imbcile".

A no Chaney wants them to be published so he can use them in his shit smeared book. That is unless he somehow gets shot in a hunting accident!

"By the way, Ollie North's convictions were vacated on appeal. He is not a war criminal."

Oh he's a war criminal all right, it just happens that the constitution he was pissing on had a loophole he was able to slither through!

Fancy that!

Had this schmuck claimed torture didn't work you retards would be singing his praises and using his ties to the Bush Admin as a plus.

#9 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-21 04:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sorry, but I don't put much stock into the words a speechwriter when it comes to the effectiveness of torture.

With a name like Ichiro I would think you opinion would be rather different.

really, how so?

Ollie Crime was waterboarded as part of his military training. By the way, Ollie North's convictions were vacated on appeal. He is not a war criminal.

you may as well have simply wrote: "He is not a war criminal," as he has never been tried for War Crimes.

"The Grand Jury on March 16, 1988, returned a 23-count indictment charging North, Poindexter, Secord and Hakim with conspiracy to defraud the Government, theft of Government property and wire fraud. North was charged also with obstruction of congressional investigations and false statements to a congressional committee and the attorney general, shredding and altering official documents, acceptance of an illegal gratuity from Secord in the form of a home-security system, conversion of traveler's checks and tax-fraud conspiracy."

The judges' reversal of the conviction on the document destruction count could result in an immediate impact on Mr. North. The violation of the Federal statute involved prompted the Government to cancel his $23,100 a year military pension and forbade him from holding any Federal appointive posts.

In its findings, the three-judge panel endangered the two remaining criminal charges on which Mr. North was found guilty, including his conviction on aiding and abetting the obstruction of Congress and accepting an illegal gift of a $13,800 home security sytem.

BETELG wrote:
TIMBCI-
Do you understand the difference between having fellow soldiers conduct a mock interrogation and actually being held prisoner?
Do you know your asshole from a hole in the ground?

apparently Justice Breyer (to my disappointment), and Rumsfield (totally not surprising) do not:

i sent this fast note yesterday to the Reddings -- the, at the time, 13th yr old girl who was [strip] searched ay school --in the SC now:

I was a bit shocked to read about one of the judges asking is this not the same as changing for gym class.

If you wish me to explain why this is different just ask, and, I certainly hope but did not see in any news where your attorney responded in any way.

I would start with two words and break those subjects out separately:
1. forced coercion;
2. psychological.

That is, to show the evidence juxtaposing the difference(s) between something willingly done and that everybody does (usually together) and [strip] search (can authorities search those undressing in gym class? can they go through the clothes while, everyone is out in the gym? Perhaps the difference here is so huge is it not seen). I would show the legal and medical (psychological and physical) differences.

I had to write you because of these above concerns being properly represented, especially after earlier today reading a news item about former Sec. of Defense Rumsfield saying:
April 22, 2009 | WASHINGTON -- When Donald Rumsfeld heard about plans to force detainees at Guantnamo Bay to stand for hours on end, in order to soften them up and make them talk to U.S. interrogators, he made a joke about it. "I stand for 8-10 hours a day," the then-defense secretary wrote on Dec. 2, 2002, at the bottom of a memo authorizing military officials to use extreme techniques against prisoners. "Why is standing limited to 4 hours?"

'As a newly released Senate Armed Services Committee report makes clear, the effects of Rumsfeld's cavalier attitude toward...."

I would suggest that, especially in your case, the statement and question made by Justice Breyer and the subsequent joke and laughter were both inappropriate and offensive.

Perhaps as a unbiased judge he must ask, but a strong response should have produced the appropriate effect of not only answering the question by citing appropriate law and surrounding historical circumstances, but in a way also to have prevented such offense and offensive outbreak; or after the fact perhaps garnering an apology.

Therefore, for that offense, from this one citizen at least, I apologize.

Further, what happened to you was Wrong; and, I see no connection, nor should such disconnection cause bias in determining the fact this was wrong -- so that it may never happen again -- and who is to be held accountable.

In a country where many if not most are and have been for a generation locked in the irrational hysteria of the War on Drugs. It may serve some arguable purpose to look into -- as far as accountability goes -- just how far "lost into" this hysteria those people (school officials' way of thinking/acting) concerned in this case, may actually be.

Good Luck and Best Regards,

North was tried in 1988 in relation to his activities while at the National Security Council. He was indicted on sixteen felony counts and on May 4, 1989, he was initially convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents (by his secretary, Fawn Hall, on his instructions). He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service.

However, on July 20, 1990, with the help of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU),[7] North's convictions were vacated, after the appeals court found that witnesses in his trial might have been impermissibly affected by his immunized congressional testimony.[8] Because North had been granted limited immunity for his Congressional testimony, the law prohibited the independent counsel (or any prosecutor) from using that testimony as part of a criminal case against him. To prepare for the expected defense challenge that North's testimony had been used, the prosecution team had - before North's congressional testimony had been given - listed and isolated all its evidence[citation needed]; further, the individual members of the prosecution team had isolated themselves from news reports and discussion of North's testimony. While the defense could show no specific instance where any part of North's congressional testimony was used in his trial, the Court of Appeals ruled that the trial judge had made an insufficient examination of the issue, and ordered North's convictions reversed. The Supreme Court declined to review the case. After further hearings on the immunity issue, Judge Gesell dismissed all charges against North on September 16, 1991, on the motion of the independent counsel.

With a name like Ichiro I would think you opinion would be rather different. reply:
really, how so?

or: keep digging that hole, asshat.

#86 | Posted by Wikipedia

The Japanese were very proud of their torture techniques. Bush probably should have hired a few Japanese consultants to give the military help in implementing torture. Unfortunately Bush was weak and only water boarded the terrorists at GITMO. Boo-Hoo they had to stand for a few hours.

Ichiro I am sorry you don't have any class. I will refrain from following your lead and calling you childish names

Torture is not putting someone in a cold room and making him stand for a while, it's having to listen to the liberal pussy's on this site whine like little girls. You girls would be the first to wet your pants if we were ever attacked again.

So if torture doesn't work then why did Barry's Intel director admit that it does?

"Torturing prisoners made us less safe"? What's the evidence for that, and by extension where's the evidence that not "torturing" makes us more safe. You morons just blindly spit out the dribble that you hear on CNN or MSNBC without a thought about what it is your hearing. It's all the same, and repeated by everyone of you nut jobs. "Bush lied, people died", "blood for oil", "we're more safe now" - it's pathetic.

Maybe we're water boarding the wrong people!

Hey, here's some transparency - let's give al qaeda Obama's travel itinerary the next time he goes out of town. Let's see how the administration likes that transparency.

So if torture doesn't work then why did Barry's Intel director admit that it does?

www.breitbart.com

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Obama administration's top intelligence official privately told employees last week that "high value information" was obtained in interrogations that included harsh techniques approved by former President George W. Bush.

#91 | Posted by mikemcdon321

Let's not forget the rest of what Blair had to say:

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

This guy almost had me, then I did some reading.
Now my understanding is that the Library Tower plot was uncovered and stopped in 2002, and Mohammed was captured in 2003. This speechwriter is twisting history to support a point which is evidently unsupportable if he has to lie to do it. I suspect he's doing what he does best, writing a doubletalking glib speech to bamboozle us into joining his side.

its just so heart warming to read how so many of you are so pissed off that we might have gotten info from these guys that saved lives in la and even in brooklyn

but heres the rub

IF Im wrong, its not life treatening to anyone..even suspected killers of americans and the known ring leader of 9/11

if you are wrong..thousands more of americans will die.....so excuse me if I agree with the side of caution rather than political bloviating.

Hey, here's some transparency - let's give al qaeda Obama's travel itinerary the next time he goes out of town. Let's see how the administration likes that transparency.

#93 | Posted by rolando182 at 2009-04-23 08:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

Please do so Mr. Moron, I'm sure you'd enjoy the NSA's enhanced intel gathering methods.

Poor, poor BLT, do you have to change that diaper very often? Crawl out from under the bed and realize that drunken driving car wrecks last year killed more Americans than Al Queada has ever killed.

Now when are they going to release the documents on surfboarding.

If you asked the Gestapo, the KGB or Stasi, they would agree that torture worked. Of course, they had different standards. Their motivations were primarily three. The first was torturing for the fun of it. That always worked.

The second was that they invariably had a big picture of any issue but that issue was a huge puzzle picture. So any piece they could come up with to fit into that puzzle constituted success. There was the problem that many of the pieces were never verified and therefore many of their puzzles were wrong. But still.

The third was to create informants. This was where they could, with validity, point to success. Ironically, this is also the reason the CIA turned to torture. They had few, if any, informants and probably no agents in place. Hell, they didn't even have a legit Near East dept. They had to rely on other intelligence agencies for info, esp. Mossad. And they knew this info was never raw info, but prejudicial info.

So I guess one could say torture works, depending on the person's view of "works".

"I agree with the side of caution rather than political bloviating."

The anti-torture side is the side of caution, my friend - the pro-torture side are the bloviaters.
Proceed cautiously and carefully, not hysterically and paranoically, to arrive at effective ideas and actions.

"Torture doesn't work and we will have no part in it" - The FBI.

So, who do you think is more credible? The FBI with decades of experience in debriefing all types of criminals or one of Bush's speechwriters.

I wouldn't call what we did torture but I understand why someone might see it as torture. The real problem with using "enhanced techniques" or torture is when do you use it. What is the threshold to engage in its use. Torture has been used and still is used for various reasons. The CIA used it to get information, the soldiers at Abu whatever used it for pleasure. Others have used it to make examples of people, etc.

Assuming we only deploy it for information, then when. This is a truly slippery slope and could get out of hand. I don't think it did with Bush but it was a new practice and once it became SOP, it could become dangerous.

"I wouldn't call what we did torture "

You would if Rumsfeld did it to you, bud! Slippery slope my ass - it's like down at the bottom of the hill near the river bottom. Next stop Nazi's and the Inquisition.

Your right because he isn't trained to do it but I would be more than happy to be waterboarded by a CIA agent. I am very interested in how long I could hold out. Part of the reason I feel it isn't torture.

But if you think it was so horrible, then demand that Obama discard any information gained from the "torture". To use this information and any additional infromaton gained from it would be the same as approving the use of torture.

Since what we did was SOOOOOO terrible to these men, demand that President Obama apologize to them for it. If it was so wrong it shouldn't matter what they did, an apology should be made for the wrong we did.

Everybody has discarded the information gained from torture for the simple reason that people being tortured will say anything to make it stop. Including you with your waterboarding fantasies.

I get waterboarded every night, it's called a fuckin shower

Sometimes I go out in the winter without a coat and it's cold as ice, we have insects all around us and once in a while one stings - ouch! I have had to stand in lines before for a long time, and it is tiresome. I play a lot of sports, and I sometimes get hit and pushed, and boy that hurts. I guess everyday life is just torture - maybe we should investigate God. I am sure he wrote the memo.

Hey Brock, I also wish that the terrorist would not have been interrogated so harshly, and that the plot to destroy the tower in L.A. would not have been uncovered and it was taken down. But here's my fantasy, and you won't like it, I wish that you would have been in it. That would be one less dumb ass we have to listen to crying about "torture".

and this is the lady who has almost carte blanche when it comes to the governing of this country
and she thinks this shit will fly

and graham as well......one of dannis heros...

I didnt post the link but took this from the weekly standard. I assumed that many of you here would not sign up for it in the spots that were showing up on the link..

Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who in 2002 was the ranking Democrat on the House committee, has said in public statements that she recalls being briefed on the methods, including waterboarding. She insists, however, that the lawmakers were told only that the C.I.A. believed the methods were legal not that they were going to be used.

In addition, former Senator Bob Graham, who famously keeps a journal about every detail of his life can't remember whether he was ever briefed.

Senator Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, who was committee chairman in 2002, said in an interview that he did not recall ever being briefed on the methods, though government officials with access to records say all four committee leaders received multiple briefings.

Everybody has discarded the information gained from torture for the simple reason that people being tortured will say anything to make it stop. Including you with your waterboarding fantasies.

#106 | Posted by brock at 2009-0

so how do you square this info with the memos that have been released that tell us that the shiek gave up info on the 2nd wave as well as a name for the cia to capture in NY that led to them arresting him and finding the exact material and tools in his apartment that the shiek said even though it took a lot of waterboarding to do
I also read somewhere that islam tells them that they are to fight as long as they can and when they feel that they have done all they can that to save themsleves, they can talk....no link but I would like to find out if thats true. I think thats pretty germaine to the converstaion.

almost all countries use harsh interogation if you think they don't you are foolin yourself-do you believe we should lose fair and square or do anything possible to win---the only reason we are even talkin bout torture is cause we do not see ourselves in a life or death struggle -if we did we would not be thinkin waterboardin is on the same level as beheadin on tv
jasman

YES Torture Works! In fact its made the State of Israel what it is today!

They are what they are because they contintuously kick Islamic ass, thank God.

Here's to hoping they keep kicking it.

poor, poor terrorists and enemy combatants. They just need a hug and a pat on the back... soooo mis-understood... big bad mean U.S. bad, bad U.S.