Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, April 20, 2009

John Nichols: There has been much rhetoric with regard to the memorandums prepared by President Bush's Justice Department regarding how -- not if but how -- prisoners of the United States would be tortured. Jay Bybee, now judge on the United States Court of Appeals, must be impeached -- not as a conclusion to an accountability moment but as a beginning.

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Why? Torture is awesome. It works EVERY SINGLE TIME Jack Bauer does it.

Breaking news and analysis on the political, social, economic and cultural activism that mainstream media commonly ignore.

That's the tagline of the guy that wrote the article.. tells you all that you need to know about it.

Ok, so he is likely a shill.

He is also likely right on this one.

The reichwing doesn't like the Nation because it consistently proves that rush is a big fat idiot.

To the point. Why are we impeaching just this asshole? Did he offend someone in power?

Whiney ass Socialists!

Civil rights are for libscums!

Real Americans love Lawnorder!

Amen!

Impeach.... too late.

The cows are gone and closing the gate now isn't going to help.

Real Americans love Lawnorder!

#5 | Posted by Custer

That is until they get caught with their own grubby little paws in the cookie jar.

re bush, cheney, gonzales, etc, etc, etc.....

The cows are gone and closing the gate now isn't going to help.

#6 | Posted by takitez

Oh, well then, let's just forget it.

We've spent more time hunting for the killer of that sweet little high school girl that got killed in jamaica than we have spent trying to get to the bottom of Bush's corruption machine.

I think a few well place convictions would tell the other cows that they cannot operate this way. But, we would rather send the signal that if your family has money, you can do whatever the hell you want, without regard to the laws of the land.

What mystifies me is why the religious right thinks it can justify protecting these criminals. This is the downfall of the religious right and the subsequent downfall of the GOP.

You wanna stop the slide? CONVICT THE CRIMINALS.

The simple fact that we can see our supposed law justices(judges) making decisions to support our politicians political whims suggests that our constitution is now just a god damn piece of paper and has no longer any value to the people and the way our nation was set up.

Go obama!!!!!!!! The hard caring president out for the people.

Mean while 600,000 people lose their jobs every month and obama is giving money to the financial corporate sector which created the problem in the first place..........a real presidencial winner!

What mystifies me is why the religious right thinks it can justify protecting these criminals.

Obama is a member of the religious right? I thought his spiritual adviser Wright was a liberal.

If enthusiasm for protecting the nation from terrorists can be considered 'crimes', I wonder if liberals are adcovating sacrificing Americans to show kindness to terrorists.

Well, with Janet Napolitano targetting conservatives, one wonders if Obama is a closet tyrant and waiting to come down mighty harsh on those who oppose gays and abortions.

....antichrist would love that.

#8 | Posted by Lipzoidial

Then the whole of Congress need to be put on trial.

What mystifies me is why the religious right

#8 | Posted by Lipzoidial

Exactly whom are you speaking of?

Well, with Janet Napolitano targetting conservatives,

#11 | Posted by takitez

And another "expert" who was obviously too lazy to read the report. (Not done by Napolitano, by the way)

Obama is a member of the religious right? I thought his spiritual adviser Wright was a liberal.

#10 | Posted by cookfish

If Obama is a member of the Cabal that ochestrated this un-constitutional behavior, convict him too.

Whoever was guilty of complicity with torture should be convicted, I don't care what party or family or organization they belong to.

The people on here that think torture is a good ideal are selfish, greedy and self-righteous in the extreme. And ignorant of the basic tenents this country was founded on.

May you burn in hell for killing what this country stood for. And you killed it for political expediency of a few well-heeled individuals who would shit down your neck if they had the chance.

Convict them now!!!!!

Then the whole of Congress need to be put on trial.

#12 | Posted by chickenrancher

Ok with me. We need to flush that nasty toilet of corruption anyway.

SanAn - Bear in mind, Takeit operates at a higher plane than the rest of us poor schlubs. Hedoesn't actually read the articles; he waits for them to be revealed to him.

"If enthusiasm for protecting the nation from terrorists can be considered 'crimes', I wonder if liberals are adcovating sacrificing Americans to show kindness to terrorists."

I don't think anyone stands accused of "enthusiasm". The word you are trying not to use is torture.

Hedoesn't actually read the articles; he waits for them to be revealed to him.

#17 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

That's right. I remember when the results of the elections were "revealed" to him.

Oops.

Convict them now!!!
#15 Posted by Lipzoidal

You're getting a little screechy, lippy.

J/K

I agree.

From the NY Times on NSA WIRE TAPs: ........The agency believed that the congressman, whose identity could not be determined, was in contact as part of a Congressional delegation to the Middle East in 2005 or 2006 with an extremist who had possible terrorist ties and was already under surveillance, the official said. The agency then sought to eavesdrop on the congressman's conversations, the official said.

Does anyone know how the congressman was???

www.nytimes.com

Takeit tends to take advantage of the, "they know not what they do" clause in the contract.

'If' terrorists strike on the soil while Bybee is being impeached, I'm sure the nation will turn around and impeach all liberals.

.........

Clinton during his glory days was so upset with conservatives for opposing his agenda that he yelled: 'shove it down their throats'....

pssst.... he shoved it down the wrong throat and got impeached. And some liberals are still waiting to avenge him, Nichols being one of them.

It was so much nicer when all this kind of thing was swept under the carpet and we could concentrate on what really matters. I miss the good old days.

Bush schedule - May 29, 2008.

Fly from Park City to Salt Lake City on Marine One.

Meet with First Presidency of the LDS Church.

Departure just before 10 a.m. on Air Force One.

You're getting a little screechy, lippy.

#20 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

I know. I apologize to those of you who can debate without shouting and calling names, but the idiocy just gets too much for me to take sometimes.

Actually, I am looking forward to the social upheaval that's coming, even if it harms me, just so we can get some kind of reasoning back in our national narrative.

Too long we have defined ourselves by who we vote for and what party we belong to and what kind of car we drive or what church we attend (or not). And what has been left behind? Reason and judgement.

Any institution, religion or individual that cannot take the bright light of reason and judgement needs to be flushed. period. It's the only thing that 'used to' separate us from the savages. Without it, we are only savages again.

Why?

#1 | Posted by IraqiBukkake at 2009-04-20 09:15 AM | Reply

Because it works. Not every time, but then what does?

Every tool should be available. They should all be used in conjunction with one another if need be. Not every person responds to the same SOP, for them we need something different.

That's the tagline of the guy that wrote the article.. tells you all that you need to know about it.

The fact he covers activism means you can dismiss him? Weird. John Nichols is one of the senior writers at The Nation.

#25
I get where you're coming from.
I was just using a retort you used on me back in October or so when I was bugging over how we were all willing to pull the political wool over our eyes.

Because it works. Not every time, but then what does?

Every tool should be available. They should all be used in conjunction with one another if need be. Not every person responds to the same SOP, for them we need something different.

This would have merit if, for example, the same guy wasn't waterboarded 183 times in a month period (and who knows how many more times in the surrounding months). It simply doesn't jive with "using tools at one's disposal to obtain information" explanation. That's how you get people to confess to bombing plots on skyscrapers that have yet to be built, which KSM did. I think it is hardly a stretch to assume that this is not the only person that was exposed to this type of treatment.

Torturing someone on the front lines somewhere to determine an opponent's position...I suppose I could buy that possibility. However this romanticized idea that someone has to be tortured to prevent the nuke going off in downtown LA is ludicrous. It has never happened, but that scenario is used over and over again to justify any abhorrent behavior (including mutilation of a child's genitals to obtain a confession from that child's parents). That is the shit of extremists, and as Americans I would hope that we wouldn't want to wallow in that mud.

If "the people" do not demand accountability from their elected officials, there will be zero accountability.

Especially when "the people" let their officials make the laws pertaining to accountability.

They will not convict themselves or each other.

I'm starting to believe "the People" (in some sick, twisted sort of way) actually meant the elite who crafted these documents.

I know. I apologize to those of you who can debate without shouting and calling names, but the idiocy just gets too much for me to take sometimes.

Actually, I am looking forward to the social upheaval that's coming, even if it harms me, just so we can get some kind of reasoning back in our national narrative.

Too long we have defined ourselves by who we vote for and what party we belong to and what kind of car we drive or what church we attend (or not). And what has been left behind? Reason and judgement.

Any institution, religion or individual that cannot take the bright light of reason and judgement needs to be flushed. period. It's the only thing that 'used to' separate us from the savages. Without it, we are only savages again.

-----------

It would take a popular revolt.

Chairborne

Well said! All tools are needed, and will still be used...No matter what the pussies who think it's cruel say. Nothin pretty bout a war.

Well said! All tools are needed, and will still be used...No matter what the pussies who think it's cruel say. Nothin pretty bout a war.

So I'll put you in the "mutilation of children as a tool" category?

Bomb, kill, rape, torture, take people away in the night, but DON'T ABORT THE FETUS!

That would be wrong.

Nothin pretty bout a war.

#32 | Posted by RODEGLIDE

What war? Oh, you mean the war to capture Iraqi oil fields for China's use? That war. Or the war to clear a path to lay an oil pipeline across Iran, Afganistan and Pakistan? Maybe you meant that war.

In your mind does either of these so-called 'wars' justify torturing humans? I this where we are? We can absolve any action if it directly affects the price of heating and air conditioning?

So I'll put you in the "mutilation of children as a tool" category?

#33 | Posted by IraqiBukkake at 2009-04-20 11:32 AM | Reply

Put me in that category.

The reason you hear about "183 times" is because that's the most glaring example. People can choose to pretend that it's the norm, but I tend to believe it's the exception to the rule.

If torture didn't work, then torture wouldn't be part of the equation.

Depends? ALL TOOLS! Didn't stutter.....

Goddamned right, chairpoodle.

Torture should be commonplace. And wiretaps too.

Let's start with giving wiretap and torture (unlimited, not just pussified waterboarding) to the IRS for a few years just to work the bugs out.

Let them start with people who claim deductions for 'home offices' and personal motor vehicles.

Sure is great the Bush shredded the Consitution!!! Right, Rtards?

Nothin pretty bout a war.

#32 | Posted by RODEGLIDE at 2009-04-20 11:28 AM

Ask the soldiers of WWII. WE can win a war without resorting to torture which is a crime.

www.washingtonpost.com

If torture didn't work, then torture wouldn't be part of the equation.

#36 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-20 11:42 AM

so it is ok to break the law? Great! I got some stuff I wanna do to that is illegal..you won't mind then?

Torture is a crime.

www.washingtonpost.com

Please hold still, Mr. Poodle, while I attach this other electrode to your left testicle.....

Okay now, about this $30.00 donation to the NRA you listed under business expense - other ....

You're a retard. Torture and revenge killings were SOP in WW2.

Your messiah must not agree with you, because nobody is being prosecuted.

Again, you're a retard.

Torture and revenge killings were SOP in WW2.

I have doubts that mutilating children in front of their parents was SOP in WW2.

The reason you hear about "183 times" is because that's the most glaring example. People can choose to pretend that it's the norm, but I tend to believe it's the exception to the rule.

At the very least, do you question the value of information that is obtained from someone who has been tortured at least 183 times?

I believe a person tortured 183 time will tell what ever you want to hear to try and make there not be a 184th, even if it means lying.

I believe a person tortured 183 time will tell what ever you want to hear to try and make there not be a 184th, even if it means lying.

Which is how KSM masterminded a plot to blow up a building that had yet to be built prior to his detention.

Ask the soldiers of WWII. WE can win a war without resorting to torture which is a crime.

But, don't ask the soldiers who offered food to german women if they 'put out' for it. They would have let them starve which is torture in itself.
Then again, making them 'pay' for food like that is also torture.

Again, you're a retard.

#41 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-20 11:48 AM

ooh you can call me names! How clever of you.

Torture is illegal.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Several of the veterans, all men in their 80s and 90s, denounced the controversial techniques. And when the time came for them to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, one veteran refused, citing his opposition to the war in Iraq and procedures that have been used at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Reading is fundamental.. learn your own history.

Wakw up, torture saves coallition personel's lives. Torture has saved an untold number of lives, and will continue to, despite what fairytale world you live in. It's an unfortunate, very usefull tool of war and peace....

very usefull tool of war and peace....
#48 | Posted by RODEGLIDE at 2009-04-20 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag: Speaking of Tools...

"Torture has saved an untold number of lives"

REALLY? How many?

"REALLY? How many?"

The key word there is untold. It's usage denotes a nonavailability of concrete numbers.

Still counting donnerboy. Thought you may know. Since you seem to be an expert about it true usefullnes.

Wakw up, torture saves coallition personel's lives. Torture has saved an untold number of lives, and will continue to, despite what fairytale world you live in. It's an unfortunate, very usefull tool of war and peace....

Don't worry about the untold ones...tell us more about the told ones. Especially pre-9/11...that's the information I'm really interested in.

"Still counting donnerboy."

I bet you are. Have you got above zero yet? I don't believe that there is documented evidence of ONE life being saved by torturing someone. (tough to document an illegal activity I bet)

We have many other tools of War that are useful too. Like Nuclear Weapons. Why don't we just glaze over Afghanistan. You know nuke em till they glow then shoot them in the dark! Why don't we use Nulcear Weapons? They aretools of war and are proven to be very useful at saving lives. More so than torture.

Ask the Japanese how effective torture was for them.

ack! Nulcear = Nuclurr = Nuclear!

If torture didn't work, then torture wouldn't be part of the equation.

#36 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Stoopid post of the month!

"I don't believe that there is documented evidence of ONE life being saved by torturing someone."

So question, if some document was declassified that proved that some information was obtained that saved many lives would you change your mind?

...if some document was declassified that proved that some information was obtained that saved many lives would you change your mind?

#57 | Posted by salamandagator at 2009-04-20 04:52 PM

No... "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Torture is a crime. WE are either a Nation of Laws or a Nation of Outlaws.

I thought this might be an interesting article until I got the part that read:

"-- to the refreshing -- MSNBC's Keith Olbermann's response..."

Refreshing? Olbermann? Keith Olbermann?

That's when I realized I was reading the scribbles of a tabloid satirist.

""Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.""

Those that stand against our nation are not privileged with our rights.

"Torture is a crime. WE are either a Nation of Laws or a Nation of Outlaws."

First, our laws can be suspended in wartime, we have seen this happen in just about every war.
Second, our military is not bound to the same laws our civilians are in wartime. If this were not the case then every enemy casualty cold be prosecuted.
Finally, the definition of torture is hazy at best. You see this to the extent that discomfort is called torture. Now, i do not know what your personal definition is but mine does not include loud music or playing with the thermostat. I have a hard time painting water boarding as torture as it is very similar to what many people do as a pass time. IF it were torture i would think that white water rafting or kayaking tour businesses would be in for a lot of litigation and my brother who used to dunk me in the swimming pool would be in jail.

Do some of the methods leave the guy shaken and afraid? Sure, does this constitute torture? Not in my book. Just because something may cause a little discomfort does not mean it is torture, this is something that is lost in the political spectrum that defines the thought process of to many in our day.

I have a hard time painting water boarding as torture as it is very similar to what many people do as a pass time.

right...strapping someone upside down on a table and force them to swallow water until they literally choke to death is just like Kayaking!

You folks never cease to amaze me with your contortionist antics!

We have already prosecuted the Japanese for water torture.

Did we suspend the Constitution? I think that Bush believed he was not subject to it but as I recall he took an Oath to Defend it against all enemies, foriegn AND domestic.

Torture is also against the Geneva Conventions.

Did we suspend those too?

"The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war."

www.washingtonpost.com

from wiki

World War II

During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[64] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[65] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[66][67][68]

] Forced ingestion
Main article: Water cure

In this form of water torture, water is forced down the throat and into the stomach. This happens repeatedly until osmosis causes the cells to explode[citation needed]. It was used as a legal torture and execution method by the courts in France in the 17th and 18th century, was employed against Americans and Chinese during World War II by the Japanese, and was also used against Filipinos by American Forces during the Philippine-American War. The Human Rights Watch organization reports that in the 2000s, security forces in Uganda sometimes forced a detainee to lie face up under an open water spigot.[1]

Water intoxication can result from drinking too much water, and this has caused some fatalities over the years in fraternities during initiation week. For example, a person was hazed to death by Chi Tau of Chico State (California) in 2005 via the forcing of pushups and the drinking of water from a bottle. [2]

Not quite the same thing now is it?

"right...strapping someone upside down on a table and force them to swallow water until they literally choke to death is just like Kayaking!"

Do a little research. There are many methods used, they simulate drowning. They are not used to kill, that would be against the point. I take it you have never spent any time on any real rapids? Or never been dunked in a pool until it feels like your lungs want to explode. Are these torture as well? Is it only torture when you don't like the person doing it to you? Is it only torture when information is involved?

It may not be fun but it is not torture. Although we did convict one man, as far as i can tell, for waterboarding he was unfairly treated. He was the victim of anti-Japanese sentiment after the war. That is if i have an accurate description of his actions.

Salamandagator-

I liked the bit about stripping prisoners naked and chaining them to the ceiling for weeks at a time, too. The sleep deprivation and forcing prisoners to shit themselves, or occasionally providing a bucket but no way to clean themselves was nice. I also liked the bit about keeping prisoners in dog crates for months, or that funny part about putting someone in a coffin-sized box with various insects. That one showed flair. One of the coolest things is all of the deaths of captives ruled as "homocide" by military physicians.

None of it is torture, of course, but I think the waterboarding is a bit overrated.

Do a little research. There are many methods used, they simulate drowning. They are not used to kill, that would be against the point.

Water torture is not "simulated" drowning.

"Water boarding" is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.

You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it "simulates" the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning or, rather, being drowned, albeit slowly and under controlled conditions and at the mercy (or otherwise) of those who are applying the pressure.

www.vanityfair.com

It is actually drowning someone and then reviving them. You know... just like Kayaking!

In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."

The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

Waterboarding is torture and torture is a crime.

Deal with it.

Now the question is what are we as a nation going to about it.

Now the question is what are we as a nation going to about it.

#65 | Posted by donnerboy at 2009-04-20 07:26 PM | Reply | Flag

Answer: Nothing.

#65 | Posted by donnerboy

NOTHING, fuck them.

Another dumb liberal writer at work. You don't IMPREACH judges because you don't like their decisions. What an f'ing moron!!!

Why don't we impeach any judge who hands down a pro-choice decision as baby-killers which is far more offensive?

Why don't we impeach any judge who hands down a pro-choice decision as baby-killers which is far more offensive?

#68 | Posted by utastaff

Because the majority of the country is pro-choice and you don't have the votes.

Next.

Warmongers Don't get Impeached,they just Slither Away!!!

But just who would impeach Bybee in the first place? Certainly not the Republicians or the Democrats who aided & abetted the Bush Regime's "Warmongering" every step of the way - they'd have to impeach themselves as well!

Judge Bybee won't ever get impeached but like Rumsfeld,Ashcroft etc. he'll buckle under the media pressure and wisely choose to just slither away!

Eyal Press's "It's Not Torture, Really!" in The Nation:

The ability to deny reality is hardly unique to conservatives. There are some people on the left, for example, who believe Hugo Chavez is a model democrat, and others who remain convinced that George W. Bush didn't actually win more votes than John Kerry in the "stolen" 2004 Presidential election.

But the release of the CIA torture memos has caused an impressive uptick of reality-denial on the right, the most notable example being this surreal op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, by David Rivkin and Lee Casey, both of whom served in the Justice Department under George W. Bush. "The Memos Prove We Didn't Torture," reads the title of their piece. How do the memos prove this? By showing, for example, that "walling" that is, smashing a detainee against a wall, which sure sounds like torture was approved only if a flexible wall was used to reduce the probability of injury. "Their shoulder blades not head were the point of contact, and the collar' was used not to give additional force to a blow, but further to protect the neck," write Rivkin and Casey in case you weren't convinced yet.

The authors don't say whether doing this twenty to thirty times, as was officially sanctioned, still fails to qualify as torture. According to them, waterboarding, too, was administered with specifications that prevented it from crossing the line, since the water "was not actually expected to enter the detainee's lungs." In the actual memo from which they draw this conclusion, then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee makes no effort to disguise the feeling this purportedly benign variant on a familiar torture technique was designed to induce: "This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of suffocation and incipient panic,' i.e. the perception of drowning." Making someone feel like they're drowning doesn't quite do it, just as sleep deprivation, dousing victims with cold water and other practices the State Department has described as methods of torture' in reports on other countries doesn't merit the label.

Rivkin and Casey could have saved their editors and themselves time by making a more succinct argument that would have sounded less, well, tortured: namely, that if Washington doesn't call it torture, it isn't torture, no matter what anyone else may think or say.
www.thenation.com

Lets torture SANOBAMA, DOCDICKHEAD, DANNI and other liberal ASSHOLES by reading to them their threads for the last year until there brain dead.

#72 | Posted by ozzieoswald

Well, I can understand why you would want company.

By the way, when you flounce out of the room in a huff, tossing your hair and stamping your feet, declaring you're leaving this dreadful place, you should probably stay gone more than a day.

The effect is soooo much more dramatic.

By the way, when you flounce out of the room in a huff, tossing your hair and stamping your feet, declaring you're leaving this dreadful place, you should probably stay gone more than a day.

#74 | Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2009-04-21 11:09 AM | Reply

Just do what I did, and change names continually!
Sincerely,
Boy-duh

Just do what I did, and change names continually!
Sincerely,
Boy-duh

#76 | Posted by 101Chairborne

That would require much more intelligence and cognitive skill than Oozie has exhibited to date.

hnn.us

Americans and torture

if Washington doesn't call it torture, it isn't torture, no matter what anyone else may think or say.

OOOOOOOH now I get it! It isn't torture because ... well, because WASHINGTON (or ChairpoodledumbOdumb) SAYS SO!

Well, why didn't you just say that right up front?? NEWSPEAK! [Generically, Newspeak has come to mean any attempt to restrict disapproved language by a government or other powerful entity] As long as you redefine the word to mean whatever you want it to mean then everything is AOK....And please, don't try and confuse us with the facts!

The beatings will continue until moral improves!(as long as it doesn't leave a visible mark)!

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