Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, April 17, 2009

The Environmental Protection Agency declared global warming a danger to public health and welfare on Friday, a ruling that ensures widespread regulation of carbon emissions in the United States. "This finding confirms that greenhouse gas pollution is a serious problem now and for future generations," EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson said.

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"But Sarkozy is our friend! He dissed our black so-called Prezident."

-Tea-baggers

Think of the enormous ecological harm that will come from this finding!!! The additional Depends heaped on America's landfills and burned in America's incinerators will far out weigh the good this finding does.

Pants pissers will send Kimberly Clark stock skyrocketing and a nation-wide shortage of Depends will result in roving gangs of Rtards mugging old people for thier adult diapers.

The HORROR!!!!

In related news, the unprecedented spike in the value of Kimberly Clark stock has reversed the past year's decline in the DOW sending it over 13,000 for the first time this year.

It appears that President Obama's double super secret economic plan is working exactly as expected. Make the Rtards piss their pants = PROFIT!!!

Create a crisis, and use it as an excuse to grab power that the constitution never granted.

Posted by nmg_no at 03:58 PM | 3 COMMENTS | permalink | Comment on This Entry


Simply untrue in this case. This is well within they're power granted by the president. No new "laws" need to be created or respected for the EPA to go forward with this.

And really what do you have against clean air?

"Do it on a Friday afternoon and hope the public ignores it. It's cowardly and despicable"

Or maybe the administration has decided to obey the law of the United States.

The Bush administration tried to avoid regulating CO2 but lost the case in 2007.

The court ruled in Massachusetts v. EPA that the EPA has the authority, based on the Clean Air Act, to regulate greenhouse gases and that the reasons presented by the EPA for failing to do so were not based on law.

Now we know what this global warming hobgoblin was all about. I saw this coming when Al Gore took the stage. Is a CO2 tax next?

One more nail gets added to the coffin of a once great nation.

You would think a high saturation of CO2 would be highly beneficial to Plant life here on Planet Earth. You would think it would make plants breathe easier and by reactions to that would also be beneficial for We Humans from the O2 that would be produced as a byproduct of plants breathing in this super rich CO2 gases. I would think it would be a net gain instead of a net loss.

Larry

#7 | Posted by LarryMohr

I've seen a couple of reports that substantiate your notion.

What is royally fucked-up is that our government has seen fit to label a life-giving gas like CO2 as a "pollutant".

It's just a ploy for yet another itemized tax that politicians love so much - take a product and/or action, demonize the shit out of it, and then justify a tax "for our own good."

It is pathetic and sad that so many morons fall for this shit time and time again.

So CO2 Fire extinguishers will be declared a pollutant now ehhhh JeffJ?? Boy thats royally fucked up.

Larry

Larry,

People breathing is a pollutant, apparently.

What bugs the shit out of Me is they took a good fire fighting chemical and from the looks of it banned it outright. Halon not only put out fires it also helped burns on Your skin too. I thought it was a GREAT Invention. Too bad it's banned anymore.

Larry


The Environmental Protection Agency declared global warming a danger to public health and welfare on Friday

see. everything is gonna be fine. The epa is on it!

It's about time. Future generations will thank us for finally waking up to the reality of climate change and doing something about it.

Future generations will thank us for finally waking up to the reality of climate change and doing something about it.


No they won't. They'll be fricking pissed at us for embracing pop-culture science at a tremendous economic cost when the reality is that these efforts, if we accept the relative accuracy of climate-change computer modeling, will have virtually no effect on the climate whatsoever.

It's money that is flushed down the toilet without any return whatsoever.

It's a bunch of feel-good BS.

" Future generations will thank us "

Sorry, Rogers, it's been too late for too long.

1896
Arrhenius publishes first calculation of global warming from human emissions of CO2.
www.aip.org

Future generations will thank us for finally waking up to the reality of climate change and doing something about it.

#13 | Posted by rcade


That is so incredibly laughable it's not funny.

You've been duped Rogers, with faulty logic and mislead and wrong data, Gorehog has lied to you.

Future generations will thank us for finally waking up to the reality of climate change and doing something about it.

Jesus Christ.

You're tickling AmericanUnity country with that one...

BTW guys, make sure to contribute to the muzak thread....It's your retribution for weekly sins.


It's about time. Future generations will thank us for finally waking up to the reality of climate change and doing something about it.

#13 | Posted by rcade at 2009-04-17 09:37 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

For CO2?? My God dude for CO2?? The thing cows give off naturally and Youb are ever so thankful the hFederal Government is going to regulate it?? My God man How gullable are You RCADE?? I might have to auction this ocean front property in Western Kansas for sale dirt cheap. What a bunch of BULLSHIT.

Larry

it is so amazing to me. Remember the movie the Music Man? Anyone?

I feel like we are living it!


"There's CO! Right here in River City!

CO2?

Yes! CO2!!"

BTW To all you lefties, despite the fact we "Rtards" are pissing and moaning

-and only cause we know what an utter crock of shit this is

-you best believe that we will be making the dough off of it.

I already have a lease in place on some texas land in the family for 9 windmills. Its a net lease with percentage bumps based upon energy pricing.

Sweeeeet.

Thanks Al!

And for those of you too uncultured to have seen the music man, they dumbed it down on a Simpson's episode you may have seen:

"Springfield needs a monorail!

A monorail?

Yes a monorail!!!"

Amazing times we live in.

I am begining to believe that when history looks back they are going to say that Obama did far more damage to the US than Bush. He will ruin the economy, plunge the nation into debt and ruin our country in a far, far greater way than Bush.


Amazing times we live in.

#23 | Posted by boojiboy

Who'da think that you could set up a scam to sell carbon credits?


But no Liberal would ever set up a scamming company like that would he?

far greater way than Bush.

#24 | Posted by sawdust

Agreed!

Look what he did in the first 6 weeks?

Holy Mother Of Fck!

Carbon credits,

just say it!?!

Fuckn amazing

These emissions were regulated before Reagan took office and gutted the EPA. After all, rivers that catch fire and air you can see are a good thing!

Isn't CO2 what humans breathe out after breathing in?

So the EPA does what they know the congress can't pass.

We are living Atlas Shrugged.

How depressing.

Commonsense: so how many rivers are burning today in the USA then?

He didn't 'gut', he modified so it was economically feasible for America industry to get there.

Congratulations, left wingers. The government now regulates human respiration. Taxing the air used to be a joke, now it's policy.



The EPA will now regulate the breath (CO2) that
we exhale. Seems reasonable to me. Count me in!

Be Well.


rivers that catch fire and air you can see are a good thing!

#28 | Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2009-04-17 10:43 PM | Reply

CO-2 doesn't burn you idiot.

CO-2 is also invisible, moron.

Try using a little common sense.

This will require the EPA to hire millions of CO2 'monitors' who keep track of every breath you take, and every time a cow farts.

You remember that compost pile that keeps yard waste out of the landfill? You'll now pay a tax on the amount of CO2 it releases.

And there will be new regulations against letting your glass of Coke go flat. The 'monitors' will walk around restaurants making sure you drink that CO2 before it's released into the atmosphere.

But we'll need all those jobs once the last of American industry is chased off to China.

Waxman says no compromise on CO2. 20% reduction in 10 years. People need to start learning how to breathe 20% less. No more exercising or sex. Next we will have to trap methane gases. Whoever thought up this CO2 lie sure sold some people a bill of goods.

It reminds me of "1984". "How many fingers am I holding up?"....."ummmm, five, five, now stop!"

I already have a lease in place on some texas land in the family for 9 windmills. Its a net lease with percentage bumps based upon energy pricing.

#21 | Posted by boojiboy at 2009-04-17 10:10 PM | Reply

You just an evil opportunist, making money off the stupidity of others.

Well done.

You may want to look at vertical-axis windmills. Far simpler that the propeller type, and more durable. Also a lot less expensive, which means higher profit margins when you charge Lefties every time they make coffee.

When we build our beach-front house in the Philippines we'll have a steady ocean breeze. One of these units on the roof will let me run the a/c so cold that I can spray water mist in the air and make snow.

We'll also have a couple of ice machines, making money selling ice to the locals.

Great googly moogly.

Lol @ rcade...*slurp*

For the uninitiated in atmospheric dynamics there is now 6 gases on the list. It's more complex then just CO2 alone can effect.

Vernon,
Its a net lease.
We don't do anything.

Isn't America great.

Ringmaster,
Do you swallow also?


These emissions were regulated before Reagan took office and gutted the EPA. After all, rivers that catch fire and air you can see are a good thing!

#28 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

LOL. yeah right.

You're thinking of China, aren't you. LOL

I just love it when a bunch of yokels with the intellectual capacity of a tube of toothpaste claim they 'know' more than 99% of the world's climatologists.

That fat child molester in Palm Beach sure has them brainwashed. I'm sure all he'd have to do is belch the order and they'd trip all over themselves to send their 9 year old kids down to Palm Beach for a sleepover.

Thank god these morons have NO POWER AT ALL. A bunch of whining impotent bitches. Laugh at their pitiful protests. Make fun of their stupidity.

Give the IRS power to waterboard at audits. Point them at anyone owning a pickup or an SUV and tell them not to stop until the fuckers are broke and bleeding. Start in Texas and work your way thru all the Red states first.

God Bless George Bush for giving us the power to REALLY fuck the Republicans!!!!!

Axe,
little puppies must be careful not to bite the hand that feeds.

Remember, presidents come and go.

But conservatives will always be at the helm of the paycheck.

I just love it when a bunch of yokels with the intellectual capacity of a tube of toothpaste claim they 'know' more than 99% of the world's climatologists.

#41 | Posted by axe

I just love it when a faux liberal thinks they can save the world by cutting emissions 5.2% of 1990 GHG levels and simultaneously continuing to consume like the average American hog. That'll show the big mean climate!

Say bye bye to your jobs! Bye bye! Bye bye! They will now all close their doors and move to china. Good job EPA!Good job! Now all you need to do is tax us to death and we're good to go!!! oh wait you're doing that now.

Pragamtous-
Why do you hate American gov't so much? Have you thought of moving to China where market freedom rules and you are free from the tyranny of the oppressive state?

"I just love it when a bunch of yokels with the intellectual capacity of a tube of toothpaste claim they 'know' more than 99% of the world's climatologists. "

You are wrong. The majority of the worlds climatologist disagree that global warming is anything to worry about. You should read Lord Mocktin's articles about the issue.

scienceandpublicpolicy.org

China don't need no EPA. I'm sure the commissars laugh at the very thought of anything like OSHA or an FDA or anything resembling actual unions.

Sounds like your cup of tea, and I hear they have plenty of it, so what's keeping you here, comrade?

Ooo Ooo i was hoping i'd get ask this!! Ummm ... There is no market freedom - look up cap-n-trade. It's a huge tax on a lot of companies. A lot of jobs are going to be gone. A lot of companies are just going to pack up and move to china where there is no cap-n-trade tax.

Also by the way oppressive states are state were the government kicks out CEO's of private companies.

"Pragamtous-
Why do you hate American gov't so much? Have you thought of moving to China where market freedom rules and you are free from the tyranny of the oppressive state?"

Pragmatous-
re: "The majority of the worlds climatologist disagree that global warming is anything to worry about. You should read Lord Mocktin's articles about the issue."

OK, I googled "Lord Mocktin" and got a correction for "Christopher Monckton", a British aristocrat with a degree in journalism.

Is that who you meant?

Did you mean "Monckton" when you named one of "The majority of the worlds [sic] climatologist [sic]", Pragmatous?

Oh so now degrees matter? Maybe you should look up all the people like AL Gore that is pumping out this bullshit called global warming. Does Al Gore have a degree in anything related to science? But yet you probably believed everything that politician told you.

So if degrees matter then you would agree that everything AL Gore says is full of shit.

?

Pragmatous-
Have I mentioned Al Gore? Have I claimed that Al Gore is of the "worlds [sic] climatologist [sic]"?

Do I have the right Monckton? Did you spell Gore's name correctly? Who knows or cares at this point of your babble.

Is the work that Lord Monckton put into to disprove global warming not worth looking into because of why? He's a journalist? Yet you took the work of Al Gore, a politician, as if it was undeniable proof of global warming.

There is always more than one side in all scientific matters that needs to be studied and documented.

I didn't mention Gore.

So it is "Monckton"? (the "worlds climatologist"?)

Betelg: you were mocking the guy. You were being sarcastic "do i have the right guy?" Come on now.

Pragmatous-
re: "Is the work that Lord Monckton put into to disprove global warming not worth looking into because of why?

I'm sure it's quite valuable. My uncle has some theories as well, but it's not like he's a Lord or anything, though I can spell his name, and never considered him an expert on the matter.

Well, you can't spell the name of your star climatologist witness, who's not a scientist even. He's a Lord, though, LOL.

Betelg: you were mocking the guy. You were being sarcastic "do i have the right guy?" Come on now.

#57 | Posted by pragmatous at 2009-04-18 03:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

PLEASE don't get the wrong idea! I'm mocking you.

Looks like Al Gore has a vested interest in the phenomenon of global warming...

Al Gore Purchases Carbon Credits From A Company He Himself Owns

Arctic air temperature correlates with solar irradiance while hydrocarbon use does not.

BetelG, how many tons of CO2 do you personally contribute per year to the atmosphere?

Are you another American consumer who thinks trimming 5.2% off of your fat ass "footprint" is going to make a difference and save the world? Do you wish to retain any resemblance of your life style in a new, greener America?

The somewhat disquieting bottom line is that in the United States, even the people with the lowest usage of energy are still producing, on average, more than double the global per-capita average.

www.sciencedaily.com

...And one climatologist to rule them all...

It's nice to see that even most of the nutcases have conceded the central point. Thanks, "Live or Die" and "Zara". Now the question is what to do about it.

What's the average for a person in the U.S., 20 tons of CO2 per year?

I'll give BetelG the benefit of the doubt. He is a greenie after all. I'll bet he only puts out 18 tons a year.

18 tons of that which does not affect the climate, "Live or die"?

#64 | Posted by BetelG

?

Maybe I need to read the entire thread before commenting; I linked to the story about Gore after seeing:

18 tons of that which does not affect the climate, "Live or die"?

#66 | Posted by BetelG

That would be 18 tons of hypocrisy I'm talking about.

LOL. It's a hard slog against the intelligentsia of the Right...

Zarathustra-
Maybe you need to read anything before commenting. I'm sure you can locate a cereal box or something.

I'll see y'all around. Have fun with your "science" of ideology.

Fail!

*picking up where I left off*

...after seeing

#6 | Posted by Ray

I don't know if global warming is occurring as its proponents say...or if it is, to what degree we are contributing to it, or if we can even do anything to influence the trend at all...

I'm not trying to trivialize the significance of asking questions re: our impact on our environment; however, I think it's important to keep some of the major players' interests in mind.

That, and I wanted to share some links I hadn't seen around here yet...

I'll see y'all around. Have fun with your "science" of ideology.

#71 | Posted by BetelG

Off to spew more tons of CO2, are ya? The self righteousness of consumer environmentalists willing only to make superficial and insignificant sacrifices in their lifestyle on display.

Who is the EPA to say what the ideal temperature is/was? The Earth has warmed and cooled, and has had a wide variety of surface temperatures, since the beginning of time. How do we know the Earth isn't supposed to be warmer? How do we know the Earth isn't supposed to be freezing cold? How will the EPA know when we have reached the "right" temperature?

#s 69 & 70 | Posted by BetelG

Interesting that you would get the above from my comments (can't speak for others)...

If weather patterns are, indeed, shifting toward global warming (or toward more extreme and catastrophic weather, or another trend), then:

Are humans to blame? Or is something else happening? Any good scientist or statistician will tell you that correlation does not imply causation. There is also the matter of necessary and sufficient causes.

Re: the graph I posted earlier, one could consider human use of hydrocarbons (especially its increasing usage), as well as trends in temperature, and arrive at the conclusion that hydrocarbon usage causes the phenomena we're seeing; however, this isn't whole story.

There is no shortage of evidence out there that is used in support of global warming; we hear about it on a regular basis. Why is it so rare that we hear arguments or see data that might support a different interpretation?

Unfortunately, when politics meets science, one of the tenets of the scientific method - that our theories, hypotheses, and notions are always subject to refinement and reinterpretation. Science's objectivity may be imperiled in such situations.

I'm trying to keep an open mind on the subject of global warming, considering scientifically sound data and interpretations as they cross my path.

The links I posted weren't meant to be trump-cards against global warming (Wonder if there are any cereal boxes on the subject..?); I personally think they are worth consideration in light of the continuing debate.

---

"There's wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked."
-George Carlin

*should read:

Unfortunately, when politics meets science, one of the tenets of the scientific method - that our theories, hypotheses, and notions are always subject to refinement and reinterpretation - may be imperiled.

botched the quote too; time for bed after this one:

"There's nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked." - GC

I'll give BetelG the benefit of the doubt. He is a greenie after all. I'll bet he only puts out 18 tons a year.

It's nice to see that even most of the nutcases have conceded the central point. Thanks, "Live or Die" and "Zara". Now the question is what to do about it.

Well. If you're not already there, move further inland. Get as far away from the coast and move further south as possible. Mexico is a good place for you. Juarez. You should try Juarez.

Make sure that you walk there and that you live in a mud hovel to reduce your emmisions. Also, cooking fires only a couple of days a week, no electronics. Those plastics had to be manufactured in a facility that spewed smoke and god knows what else into the air.

The hypocrisy of the left when it comes to global warming makes me giggle with glee. Arm Chair environmentalists.

I do more for the environment on a 12 mile hike than you do in a year by being angry at Republicans for not buying into your propaganda.

What's interesting is this:

www.news.com.au

Antartica is getting colder and GAINING ice.... There goes the whole "loss of all the sea ice" theory.

Now whatever will the global warming shill's start screaming about?

Antartica is getting colder and GAINING ice.... There goes the whole "loss of all the sea ice" theory.

No, it's not getting colder. It may be gaining ice from increased snows. In fact, the oceans are warmer around Antarctica and the air holds more moisture, which leads to more snow. You are familiar with lake effect?

At any rate, what would the D.R. be without all the "scientists" we have to set everyone else straight?

The website of the (cited in the link) British Antarctic Survey:
www.antarctica.ac.uk

You might want to try reading Yav:

"East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades". "

parts of it are COOLING.....

a ruling that ensures widespread regulation of carbon emissions in the United States.

Morons don't understand it is based on health and welfare of the people.

Dangerous unhealthful gases, I am sure you all like Larry are huffers from your cars' tail pipe, it is such CLEAN air.

Morons, just sad morons.

taxing evil CO2? . . . say it ain't so Joe!

if I don't pay the CO2 tax - -

my pizza dough won't rise ...
my hot dogs & brauts will have pita buns?? ..
AND - - I'll have to drink FLAT BEER!!! ..

hmmm, that flat beer thingy could be considered torture - - hence a possible loophole

Are you another American consumer who thinks trimming 5.2% off of your fat ass "footprint" is going to make a difference and save the world? Do you wish to retain any resemblance of your life style in a new, greener America?

Well if you had a fever of 102 and could trim the temperature by 5% would it make a difference? Guess mom never gave you a cool bath when you were a kid with a temperature, that accounts for the lack of thought.

Morons don't understand it is based on health and welfare of the people.


Dangerous unhealthful gases, I am sure you all like Larry are huffers from your cars' tail pipe, it is such CLEAN air.


Morons, just sad morons.


#82 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-04-18 09:15 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


I have much more respect for this philosophy than operating under the guise of trying to stop the natural order of the earth.

The thing of it is, near 300 BILLION tons of CO2 is dumped into the atmosphere every year. only 6 billion tons comes from man made soruces.

These folks are acting like this is a far larger problem than it is. Taxing it and artifically inflating prices in an effort to combat it is WAY overkill.

I would much rather see money spent on ending polution from fertilizers and that ilk being dumped into rivers than worry about 2% of all carbon emissions.

82 | Posted by moneywar

CO2 is not a pollutant. It is a life-giving gas.

Jesus.

This is biologyy101 shit.

Jeffj I think the problem with C02 is not that it is a life giving gas, it IS.. but anything in excess is a problem. Heck you can die from drinking too much water and water makes up 70% of our bodies.

That being said, CO2 emissions is so far down on the list of actual environmental problems it is laughable that it dominates the discussion like it does.

You might want to try reading Yav:

I did.

BTW, did you read my link?

parts of it are COOLING.....

"...Parts of it are cooling" is probably true, I didn't find that surprising. That, however, is entirely different than concluding "Antartica (sic) is getting colder."

CO2 is not a pollutant. It is a life-giving gas.

Actually it's a waste gas (to mammals) that is expelled as a result of metabolism. But I digress.

The new campaign is building. I can see it now: "CO2 is our FRIEND!"

Now the question is what to do about it.

I'll tell you what we DON'T do - we DON'T waste trillions of dollars on bullshit like cap and trade and/or Kyoto. Even your beloved computer models, which are in heavy dispute, show that such measures will have almost no impact on the climate whatsoever.


Well if you had a fever of 102 and could trim the temperature by 5% would it make a difference? Guess mom never gave you a cool bath when you were a kid with a temperature, that accounts for the lack of thought.

No. What constitutes a lack of thought is your math - that you seem to think that a 5% reduction in global CO2 emmissions will result in a 5% drop in temperature. If you are going to peddle this bullshit, at least have a rudimentary understanding of the extremely tenuous computer models you are basing your specious reasoning on.

The alarmists glob on to the emotional answer - reduce carbon emmissions - without any degree of thought whatsoever. Pick your poison regarding climate change, assuming for the sake of argument that these computer models are accurate - and I can prescribe a solution alternate to cutting CO2 emissions that is 100-1000 times more effective at 100-1000 times less the cost. I've been saying this alot over the last few months and have yet to have 1 person challenge me on my claim. Yet, it doesn't prevent the alarmists from staying mired in their thoughtless mindset.


Yav are you denying that plants use CO2 to survive?

You will be the first in history I think.

and yes I did read your article.

The bottom line is: parts of antartica is getting cooler and it is gaining more ice. Pretty much the opposite of what the global warming pant pissers have been yammering about.

This is biologyy101 shit.

#86 | Posted by JeffJ

Even the sun is commonly perceived as dangerous. It is our major source of the essential Vitamin D. That people are getting less sun is one reason for our decline in general health. It shows up especially in the winter during cold and flu season.

Actually it's a waste gas (to mammals) that is expelled as a result of metabolism. But I digress.
The new campaign is building. I can see it now: "CO2 is our FRIEND!"

#88 | Posted by YAV

What a bad deflection. CO2 is vital for plant life. It will remain as it was despite regulations to accomplish the impossible.

What a bad deflection. CO2 is vital for plant life. It will remain as it was despite regulations to accomplish the impossible.

You beat me to it, Ray.

Yav are you denying that plants use CO2 to survive?
Not at all. You'd have to be an idiot to draw that out of what I said.

You will be the first in history I think.
See previous sentence.

and yes I did read your article.
The bottom line is: parts of antartica is getting cooler and it is gaining more ice. Pretty much the opposite of what the global warming pant pissers have been yammering about.

You didn't read it, or you lack comprehension. Given the retort on plants I'll go with "lack comprehension." You assigned a position to one group and the conclusion you drew was incomplete, so now you assign "proof" against your strawman.

What a shame. I actually agree with some of what you've posted. The "yammering global warming pant pissers" sort of makes anything you say suspect. Not that that wasn't obvious.

You can't be serious. You deny that it is a life giving gas by saying "actually it is a waste gas(to mammals)" and somehow I am not comprehending what you are saying?

Please.

The link you provided didn't offer any additional information other than to say "man made global warming" without any indication as to HOW man made it.

Have fun with your "science" of ideology.

#71 | Posted by BetelG

The graph I posted in #61 argues that it is the sun's activity - not ours - that correlates much more strongly with rising arctic temperature. CO2 production may have a small effect, but it doesn't appear to be significant.

No denial or "ideology" there as far as I can tell - just an attempt to better explain what we've already observed.

This is supposed to be how science progresses - if some work was done carefully, can withstand scrutiny, and provides more powerful explanations and predictions than its predecessor, it could stick around. If the analysis is flawed, its problems are noted and research moves along in another direction.

Unfortunately, the topic of global warming has become so politicized that one cannot suggest an alternate interpretation without being attacked as an ideologue, denier, etc.

Apparently the sun-temp correlation presents the most trouble to those who are interested in holding humankind directly responsible for warming temperatures...

You can't be serious.

I'm not the one that extrapolated "parts" to an entire continent, then used that to deny a collections of findings for an entire planet.

Look, I'm sorry you stepped in your own "life giving" shit. Don't blame me.

Carbon...the basis for our New World monetary system.
Carbon...the basic element of life.
Carbon...whose intricate cycle is crucial to all life.
CarbonMark....the New World Order's currency.

Just as H20 is the basis of world's Metric System, so now Carbon (C) will be the basis of our world's new economic system!

Carbon plays a dominant role in the chemistry of life, as the Carbon Cycle is a complex series of processes through which all of the carbon atoms in existence rotate. The same carbon atoms in your body today have been used in countless other molecules since time began. The wood burned just a few decades ago could have produced carbon dioxide which through photosynthesis became part of a plant. Without the proper functioning of the carbon cycle, every aspect of life could be changed dramatically. Indeed, life itself could come to an end if the carbon cycle were threatened. Global warming is one single piece of evidence of this.

What if we could convince the masses that their inordinate use of Carbon was bringing life to a precipice? Show the masses that as they walk through life their footprint could be too big (ie., their carbon footprint). Too much production of carbon could mess up the carbon cycle, and thus threaten life beyond its ability to recover from the damage. How do we maintain a balance? Simple...through an economic sytem which does just that.

Purchase Carbon credits! That's right, make Carbon the new currency. If you are one in the world community whose carbon footprint is too large, you will be able to offset such a large footprint by contributing more carbon credits, a beneficial tax if you will, that goes towards saving the planet. Such a system is favorable to the poor as well, since the poor don't produce large carbon footprints.

Participation in the new system will be mandatory! If you will not sign on to our Carbon Credit system, then you will not be a member of the world community!

Life hangs in the balances. Thus it is of utmost importance that all sign on. Those who do not will be labeled enemies of the world community, enemies of earth itself.

The new logo of the world currency will be the Carbon logo, representing the Carbon Cycle. This logo will be carried by each world citizen, perhaps a carbon credit card of some sort, displaying the new CarbonMark logo, and your allegiance to the New World Order.

The New World Community Logo representing the Carbon Cycle and the new World Currency:


. . . C . . .
. .C . C . .


Carbon - Atomic Symbol = C
Carbon - Atomic Number = 6
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Global temperatures over this decade have actually been cooler than global temperatures over the prior decade.

Pick your poison regarding climate change, assuming for the sake of argument that these computer models are accurate - and I can prescribe a solution alternate to cutting CO2 emissions that is 100-1000 times more effective at 100-1000 times less the cost. I've been saying this alot over the last few months and have yet to have 1 person challenge me on my claim.

Posted by JeffJ

Apparently the sun-temp correlation presents the most trouble to those who are interested in holding humankind directly responsible for warming temperatures...

It's one of the more interesting areas of study and research. If you're really interested, I suggest checking out Solanki's work at the Planck Institute. His work is quoted extensively by those that hold views contrary to global warming. BTW, here's what he has to say about it:

A misleading account of my views was published in the Toronto National Post in March, 2007 (and is to be found at different places on the web). In contrast to what is written there I am not a denier of global warming produced by an increase in the concentration of greenhouse gases. Already at present the overwhelming source of global warming is due to manmade greenhouse gases and their influence will continue to grow in the future as their concentration increases. The same newspaper already misquoted other scientists on this topic. See, for example, the home page of Nigel Weiss of Cambridge University www.damtp.cam.ac.uk

www.mps.mpg.de

Yav.. If parts are getting cooler, and there is no mention of other parts getting warmer...would the net effect be colder? or warmer? or neutral?

This is basic math it shouldn't be so hard.

The ice sheets are at their thickest levels in at least 10 years, and the ice sheets breaking off from the parts that ARE losing ice is part of a NORMAL cycle as indictaed in the article.

Net effect is much more likely to be colder than neutral and especially not warmer.

Nice try at a deflection.

The bottom line is that this effect is quite opposite from the yammering "I drive a Prius to save the PLANET" masses. These uninformed fools believe they are sving the planet then conveniently forget they are trading around 15-20% better gas mileage for 1000% more batteries that are NON-recyclable and a horrific nightmare to store for the next few thousand years.

Yav.. If parts are getting cooler, and there is no mention of other parts getting warmer...would the net effect be colder? or warmer? or neutral?

From your article:


Ice expanding in much of Antarctica
Eastern coast getting colder
Western section remains a concern

and
...experts are concerned at ice losses on the continent's western coast

Are you going to seriously argue that this report on a report, not yet released, gives you enough information to determine the changes in average temperature of the Antarctic?

Net effect is much more likely to be colder than neutral and especially not warmer.

You have no idea why it snows, do you?

Actually I do. I am from New England and intimately familiar with snow.

And I am really trying to figure out how it is relevant to the conversation.

As far as the report... do I believe it is enough to draw conclusions? i am not the one drawing them, the researchers are. but thanks for playing.

Well if you had a fever of 102 and could trim the temperature by 5% would it make a difference? ....
as usual . . . so-called do-gooders are unable to grasp a complex concept

the US has 5% of worlds population but uses 25% of worlds energy
the rest of the story ....
we feed another 35% of the world's population who are unable to feed themselves

soo, yes - we could . . .
a) easily trim 5%+ of our country's energy usage
b) lower our standard of living
c) allow a bunch of 3rd world countries to starve -including the Palestinians

feel better now??

Global temperatures over this decade have actually been cooler than global temperatures over the prior decade.

You remind me of Ussher picking points in the Bible and extrapolating or removing conflicting data that messes up his calculations.

In other words, you pick a data set in a trend and try and disprove the trend.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov

And I am really trying to figure out how it is relevant to the conversation.

You've left no doubt about that.

As far as the report... do I believe it is enough to draw conclusions? i am not the one drawing them, the researchers are. but thanks for playing.

Really? You've read the researchers conclusions? May I get a copy of the not yet released report?

What you've read are reporters accounts of parts of the report. You've also drawn your own extrapolations, not even supported by the reporting. I already cited how that worked with Solanki and linked to Nigel Weiss' rebuttal of how their work had been mischaracterized.

On with my Saturday. I have chores to do.

You remind me of Ussher picking points in the Bible and extrapolating or removing conflicting data that messes up his calculations.

I was merely pointing out the fallability of these computer models, which had this decade pegged to be warmer than the last.

As more and more raw date comes in, these models have become increasingly dubious - I am not saying irrelevant, but less accurate is fair. That is why I am squawking about slowing down regarding legislation; legislation that has on ever-shakier ground scientifically. More importantly, I occasionally take the position that these computer models ARE in fact accurate - and then propose the question, "now what?" This I have done twice already on this thread. The alarmism and political abandonment of the scientific method are bad enough, but when the "solution" to the problem isn't a solution at all, but comes at an economically-staggering cost; I find myself torn between attempting to educate the alarmists on this front, which has proven futile thus far, and wanting to mock the alarmists.

"Global temperatures over this decade have actually been cooler than global temperatures over the prior decade."

Make up shit much?

Global yearly average temp averaged over 1989 - 1998 57.9F
Global yearly average temp averaged over 1999 - 2008 58.3F

Data: data.giss.nasa.gov

Sounds like the EPA will be able to regulate the amount of humans and animals (livestock & pets) allowed to live in America. Yea of course industry will be the first target, but really humans themselves produce alot of pollutants. Like enviormentalist say, "Humans are the cause of global warming"

I remember a movie called "Total Recall" where the citizens had to pay a Oxygen Tax, or the government will shut off the air. I'm sure that will be next.

Make up shit much?

Not at all. My figure comes from an average of ALL of the weather-monitoring services and my figure uses as its last year of the current decade as 2007. This soon past 2008, I don't trust all of the numbers just yet, particularly in light of the recent discovery that NASA proclaimed that Oct. of '08 was the warmest October in recorded history, but in reality they inadvertantly rolled September's numbers over into October's.

I'm convinced that Zatoichi is actually blind!

The computer models, model what?

The Suns emissions? N O

The Water Vapor which is 3000 times more responsible for heat retention than CO2? N O

The only thing modeled is CO2, only 0.038% of the entire atmosphere!

The Global Warming Chicken-Littles are screaming about only 0.038% of the atmosphere!!!

Guess what!!! Mankind is only responsible for 10% of that 0.038% of the entire atmosphere!!!

Even if we reduced our emissions to ZERO, we would only lower CO2 to 0.0379% of the entire atmosphere!!!

Then, at the same time, we would reduce algae and green plants by our 10% of 0.038% of atmospheric CO2, which entities use that CO2 as food to grow and seed!!!

We would reduce the Amazon forest and old growth forests by our reduced percentage!

You cretins use this for POLITICS and to gain POWER for socialism; your greed for welfare!

You don't care one iota about facts, just so you can gain money and power for lies and frightening the ignorant!

Scum vermin and inveterate liars is what you are.

Again, when will the EPA know that they've "fixed" global warming? How do they know what the ideal temperature? How do they know the earth isn't "supposed" to be hotter or colder than it is right now?

CO2 Tax is the new unlimited oil of America. the Black Gold, Texas Tea.

You've left no doubt about that.

#107 | Posted by YAV at 2009-04-18 10:49 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

AH the out of context quote. The hallmark of the beaten.

Democrats are the new Carbon Barons/ Tycoons. Im sure their industry will out do the Oil Industry.


Again, when will the EPA know that they've "fixed" global warming? How do they know what the ideal temperature? How do they know the earth isn't "supposed" to be hotter or colder than it is right now?

#115 | Posted by JOE at 2009-04-18 11:25 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


exactly. They conveniently forget that ice core samples have proven that increases in temperature signalling the end of ice ages and the beginning of warm periods PRECEDES elevations of CO2 in the atmosphere by 800 years +/- 200 years.

In other words, CO2 is the PRODUCT of global warming not the CAUSE.

So all this talk about fixing it through regulating CO2 is a disaster waiting to happen

In other words, CO2 is the PRODUCT of global warming not the CAUSE.


While historically true, we ARE dealing with a different dynamic here - 6000-10000 prior years of warming is NOT what is causing man to introduce greenhouse gases into the atmosphere today.

I don't buy that Jeff. Man introduces around 6 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year, while nature pumps in around 290 Billion tons, so 150 years of industrial revolution assuming that the output was the same in all years for man made sources...which is a HUGE assumption since it was likely drastically less, is sitll only the equivalent of 2 years of what nature slams into the atmosphere.

Every time a volcano erupts it puts vast amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, far more than the yearly output of man.

it is insignificant in the overall grand scheme of the atmosphere.

Man introduces around 6 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year, while nature pumps in around 290 Billion tons

Do you have a link to back up that fact?

Jay asks, "Do you have a link to back up that fact?"

Do you even read the links that are provided? I doubt that! Otherwise, you would already understand that the issue is one of pseudo-science lies.

What are the claims by the GW alarmists? That anthropomorphic CO2 is 10% of that which Nature produces? 15%???

That would mean that our compliment to the world's CO2 plant and algae food is 10=15% of total 0.038% CO2 in the atmosphere.

Got that? We contribute 10-15% of the 0.038% CO2 in the entire atmosphere.

It is a fact that water vapor transfers more heat than does CO2 and it is 3000 times more prevalent than is CO2, at 1% of the entire atmosphere.

However, the FACT is that the GW models do not calculate H2O into their models!!!

WHY NOT???

How about the main source of heat that MUST increase in order for CO2 and H2O to transfer heat back to the Earth?

IT ISN'T IN THE MODEL EITHER!!!

So, the two main causes of heating are not used in the models that "science" uses to calculate GW ...

... and you ignorant liars are their dupes to fool because they want money and power, and will lie like Democrats to get it!!!

So, no?

www.geocraft.com

"Of the 186 billion tons of CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants."


My apologies for misquoting earlier. It should have read approximately 190 Billion tons and mans contribution 6 billion tons.

It was a silly mistake in my recollection and I should have re-read it before posting.

Since the ocean is responsible for 15 times as much CO2 output as man I propose we ban it. Oh and those pesky decaying plants too. Something MUST be done.

Thanks for the link, I'm looking at it now, however he doesn't list his source for the data he presents in his fun facts section, so I'm still wondering where these numbers come from.

Still looking.

Seriously, Jay, you appear to be interested in the facts of the matter; requesting links and all. So, why don't you address that CO2 is the 3d least likely source of GW?

The Sun, of course, is the source and varies regularly, and as science has noticed as FACT!

Next, water vapor (H2O) is the part of our atmosphere that transfers reflected heat back to increase GW!

Why remove its HUGE factor from the models that "science" uses for GW? The Sun?

Next, in order of heat trasfer is CO2, but it is only 0.038% of all the atmosphere!

Why is it the only changing factor in GW Models?

You can't face these FACTS, so you are only pretending to being interested in "links."

Otherwise, why not address the facts?

Tadowe:

Don'tt forget also that:

the earths orbit is on around a 100,000 year cycle drastically effecting the climate and the earths axis has a "wobble" that has a 20,000 year cycle causing great effect on the global climate.

Why is it the only changing factor in GW Models?

I don't know that it is. It seems to me that a scientist modeling GW could easily put a sub-routine in the model and call it Delta Solar Variance or some such.

As far as water vapor is concerned, wouldn't excess water vapor precipitate out of suspension ie. rain or snow?

Now, on the other hand, if the atmosphere is warmed by CO2 it would then be able to hold more water vapor.

I'm still trying to find another source for total human CO2 emissions.

it is insignificant in the overall grand scheme of the atmosphere.

I am not saying that it isn't.

I was merely pointing out that man's CO2 output is in no way a reaction to a warming globe. I wasn't suggesting that for all other sources of CO2.

Jay says, "I don't know that it is. It seems to me that a scientist modeling GW could easily put a sub-routine in the model and call it Delta Solar Variance or some such."

You rationalize some "routine" that justifies your continuing faith in man-made GW. Where's your link describing the factors used? Links, above, describe the models ... go prove your supposition by providing a "link."

"As far as water vapor is concerned, wouldn't excess water vapor precipitate out of suspension ie. rain or snow?"

That is certainly part of the process of absorbing reflected heat and transfering it back to the Earth, but you attempt to make it into a negative response to the FACT that water vapor would still be the greatest atmospheric source of GW. You are like a religious zealot, unwilling to accept any negative reasoning concerning your faith.

"Now, on the other hand, if the atmosphere is warmed by CO2 it would then be able to hold more water vapor."

The "atmosphere" is 98% transparent to visible and infra-red light. It is the Earth that is heated, along with its interior source, and that heat reflected back into space. H2O, CO2 and methane (CH4) are the parts of the atmosphere which absorb that reflected heat and transfer it back to the Earth, variously. The infra-red (heat) from the Earth is not at relativistic speed (shot from the Sun) and is therefor more easily absorbed in those parts of the atmosphere, but again, most of that reflected heat is also transfered back out into space.

Methane is 5 times more heat retentive than is CO2, but it is only 0.00017% of the atmosphere. Water vapor has the highest potential for absorbing the Earth's reflected heat, but is not calculated in the models, nor is methane, or the Sun ...

... or our position relative to the Sun in our ages long orbital cycle(s.)

"I'm still trying to find another source for total human CO2 emissions."

Figures lie and liars figure! The easiest to understand facts make your question moot!

Mankind, even if providing 20% of total atmospheric CO2, cannot change the total CO2 figure of 0.038%

The atmospher has only that amount, or if we ended ALL mankind's production of CO2, then that figure would still be:

0.036% of all the Earth's CO2!

We could only have an effect by 2/1000 of the entire problem ...!!!

But, you can't do such simple math, can you? None of the faithful can even begin to understand how ridiculous Man-Made Global Warming happens to be, in your 0.038% of our atmosphere: evil CO2!

Mankind, even if providing 20% of total atmospheric CO2, cannot change the total CO2 figure of 0.038%

The atmospher has only that amount, or if we ended ALL mankind's production of CO2, then that figure would still be:

0.036% of all the Earth's CO2!

Tadowe, in case you haven't noticed, we are currently mining the Earth and releasing Carbon that has been stored inertly for millions and millions of years. It was put there when the atmosphere had a much higher concentration of CO2.

Science calculates that water vapor, H2O, is between 0-4% of the atmosphere (2% average,) and scientifically recognized as the major source of atmospheric Global Warming.

CO2 is between 0.0360% and 0.0380% of the entire atmosphere, but less retentive of heat than H2O, or even methane (CH4 at 0.000170% of atmosphere.)

That means, using everyday 7th grade math, that H2O is 526 times more of the Global Warming (GW) problem than is CO2.

A factor out of the control of humanity, and therefor not mentioned by the neo-Weathermen of pseudo-science in their "GW Models," along with deleting the Sun's influence, and also ignoring CH4 as a factor.

Instead, they continue to use CO2 as the ONLY factor causing GW!!!

And, the faithful cross themselves and pretend that that is so, and that mankind's 10% addition to 0.0380% of CO2 is the CAUSE OF THE ENTIRE GW PROBLEM!?!

Wow! And their own faithful prophet of doom and destruction caused by our 2/1000 of the GW problem is a DEMOCRAT POLITICIAN!!!

Two faiths combined for the mentally challenged to believe in and worship like gods!

The Left's neo-God(dess) GAIA and mankind is the DEVIL!

Jay proves he's a faithful acolyte of ManMadeGW, "Tadowe, in case you haven't noticed, we are currently mining the Earth and releasing Carbon that has been stored inertly for millions and millions of years. It was put there when the atmosphere had a much higher concentration of CO2."

2/1000 of the total CO2 in our atmosphere and you continue to blather about mankind causing GW?

There is no way to *ever* convince the religious, or statist zealot, from belief in their faith.

Why do you ask for links, when simple math is ignored by you? You won't be "convinced" by any links, so your total effort is to belittle by demanding "links" the slavish believers can say are not forthcoming, even when they are ...

Why not answer one simple question: If mankind stopped *all* CO2 production, how do you think that 2/1000 reduction would have any effect on total GW?

You won't answer because by reducing CO2 by 2/1000, billions would die and Al Gore will have to take responsibility for their deaths. Other billions would live in caves; forbidden to even light a wood fire because of CO2 ...

What a bunch of unconscious idiots this world holds ... !!!

Tadowe, From your 1:35 link:

The fifth most abundant gas in the atmosphere is carbon dioxide. The volume of this gas has increased by over 35% in the last three hundred years (see Figure 7a-1). This increase is primarily due to human induced burning from fossil fuels, deforestation, and other forms of land-use change. Carbon dioxide is an important greenhouse gas. The human-caused increase in its concentration in the atmosphere has strengthened the greenhouse effect and has definitely contributed to global warming over the last 100 years.

I personally would like to see more investment in nuclear, hydro, and wind power generation (I don't believe solar power generation is a viable alternative in the short term). I don't see how that leads to billions of deaths.

"What a bunch of unconscious idiots this world holds ... !!!"

#134 | Posted by tadowe at 2009-04-18 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag: unintended irony

Of course this the same puling dumbfuck who carries a single-action .22.

"On the Absorption and Radiation of Heat by Gases and Vapours, and on the Physical Connection of Radiation, Absorption, and Conduction"

Tyndall, John, 1861.

wiki.nsdl.org

You probably remember when that paper was published, don't you Tadley?

www.usgcrp.gov

Here is a song for all the new Liberal Carbon Baron/Tycoon's about to be born

It called the Hollywood Libillies

Come listen to a story about a man named AL
A poor politican, made evormentalsit run a foul,
Then one day global warming was the news,
And up one day we need somebody to accuse.
CO2 that is, black gold, Liberal tea.

Well the first thing you know ol' AL a millionaire,
His Libfolk said, 'AL, move away from there!'
They said, ' A Mansion in theCountry is the place you oughtta be.'
So, they loaded up the Jumbo and flew to Tennessee.
Nashville, that is, Huge Ass Homes, Gas guzzling cars.

Well now its time to say goodbye to AL and all his kin.
And they would like to thank you Libfolks fer kindly droppin' in.
You're all invited back next week to this locality
To have a heapin' helpin' of their ideology

Libilly that is. Smoke a dube, Take your sandels off.

Y'all come back now, y'hear?

Jay posts specious figures, (deleted for bandwidth)

You continue trying to misdirect that whatever claims are made, that mankind only contributes, *at most*, 2/1000 (two one thousandth) of the total, and even if all of our CO2 was stopped, that that figure (2/1000 of the problem) would remain the SAME!

Jay continues to misdirect, "I personally would like to see more investment in nuclear, hydro, and wind power generation (I don't believe solar power generation is a viable alternative in the short term). I don't see how that leads to billions of deaths."

Why do you do this? I never said that emphasizing alternative power sources would cause the death of billions!?!

You are starting to make the issue into me, personally, by sidling around the facts in this way. I'm the messenger, not the creator of the vanishingly small amount that mankind affects the total that the World (GAIA) has in CO2.

Face it for once ... mankind only increases global CO2 by 10% (or double that to 20% as an exaggeration!) What is 10% of 0.0380, or 20% if you fall on the side of exaggeration?

0.00380% of the total atmospheric CO2, and which CANNOT be the cause of GW!

If that exaggerated 20% was removed (or 10%,) then only 0.00380% of the GW problem would be solved and mankind would have no heat, light, and precious little housing or food, since 0.00380% of plant life would be reduced along with that amount of our share of CO2 ...

... but no amount of reason can penetrate your belief and faith in Man Made Global Warming ...

Can it?

Zatoichi responds but avoids answering, "Of course this the same puling dumbfuck who carries a single-action .22."

Specious effort to make me the subject to mock, and thereby discredit the messenger. Considered a 'sophomoric' effort by those incapable of answering, on point.

The blind mendicant posts, "On the Absorption and Radiation of Heat by Gases and Vapours, and on the Physical Connection of Radiation, Absorption, and Conduction"

An article which in no way addresses the problem's premis: that mankind is causing GW by its 2/1000 (at most) addition to our world's total of 0.0380% of the atmosphere, as CO2. It only states that Tyndall was first to recognize that parts of our atmosphere retained and transfered reflected heat back to the Earth.

Similarly, your other link to charts, are misdirections, and which don't actually reflect that mankind's portion is STILL only 2/1000 of those figures, despite the effort to infer otherwise!

"You probably remember when that paper was published, don't you Tadley?"

It doesn't matter, and since those charts don't accurately reflect that mankind's part/portion/percentage of the problem can only have an 0.0038% (at most) affect on GW; whether it is increasing, staying the same, or getting colder ...

If our 10% of the worlds total of 0.038% of CO2 is reduced to Zero, then only 2/1000 of the total world's CO2 will be lessened to 0.037% of all the atmosphere.

How does that small decrease in CO2 have an affect, when the major heat holder/transfer in the atmosphere is by H2O, over 500 times more addition to GW than is CO2?

Answer that simple question, then, Zat?


Jay posts specious figures, (deleted for bandwidth)

I lifted those specious figures from the link you provided at 1:35.

I never said that emphasizing alternative power sources would cause the death of billions!?!

And I never said we should stop "*all* CO2 production," that was your strawman.

Human activity leads to the emission of roughly 26 billion tons (52 trillion pounds) of CO2 annually en.wikipedia.org">1

Human activity leads to the emission of roughly 26 billion tons (52 trillion pounds) of CO2 annually1, that's about 130 times more than emissions occurring naturally from volcanoes2, all politics aside, that gives me moment of pause and it's going to take a little more than your anti-GW ranting to allay my fears.

As the basic facts show, and as any layman can understand, only a small part of our atmosphere catches and transfers reflected heat from the Earth, then back to it.

The Earth's average heat remains essentially the same, but is of course impacted by increases in reflected heat from that small portion of its atmosphere; however small that percentage might be.

In that regard, it can be easily reasoned that it is the Sun which provides the average Earth temperature, no matter how significant reflected heat, trapped by that percentage of the Earth's atmosphere, may be exaggerated to be.

The Sun's relatively constant output is the primary cause of GW. Next is the Earth's ability to absorb and reflect heat, then comes H2O, at an average of 2% of the atmosphere, which is over 500 (if the average is 1%, not 2%) times more the source of re-absorbtion of reflected heat than is CO2, at only 0.038% of the total atmosphere.

How can our 0.0038% of 0.038% of the total GW problem be its cause ...?

Oh, my God, Jay! You found one source which says that man produces more CO2 than does nature, and suddenly your previous understanding is reversed, magically and mystically!

See? Brainwashing does work, and it isn't any complicated process to accomplish!

Gather all the coal plants and whatever CO2 source mankind makes, and don't forget to count yourself!

You and your evil exhalations of the damned CO2 are adding to Global Warming, of that there is no doubt.

Solution: Genocide, where are the terrorists with the Soviet version of Smallpox when the Mankind Is Evil and Destroying the World crowd need them???

Let's do in the chickens, pigs and cows who not only exhale *evil* CO2, but also like the *evil* mankind, produce the *evil* GW gas: methane!!!

How about those whales, the evil exhalers of massive amounts of CO2 ... end their selfish existence!!!

You creeps are truly crippled mentally by your faith and belief in Al Gorism, the neo-religion of the Democrats/leftists/whatever ilk.

Not only are you a mob of ignorant partisans, but you are dangerous to the economics of the future with your utopian spending on GW ...

Jay, do the math, if you have an iota of sense left in that hodgepodge of heurism:

What was the CO2 level before the Industrial Revolution?

If mankind puts out that amount over what Nature does, then what should the present CO2 levels be, with our massive addition and from the pre-Industrial figures?

Want to bet?

Jay, I provide links which support the point I make, not support that link in their other opinions or statements of fact. Please, be real.

I have posted link-after-link, time-after-time on this site, but the faithful refuse to be swayed in their belief that mankind is causing Global Warming. You, apparently, are one of those who can't see your nose for your belief.

First, if you are in any way honest, can you admit that the Sun is the major cause of any change in Global Warming?

Try that one on and answer ... why not?


Here is a song for all the new Liberal Carbon Baron/Tycoon's about to be born


It called the Hollywood Libillies


Come listen to a story about a man named AL
A poor politican, made evormentalsit run a foul,
Then one day global warming was the news,
And up one day we need somebody to accuse.
CO2 that is, black gold, Liberal tea.


Well the first thing you know ol' AL a millionaire,
His Libfolk said, 'AL, move away from there!'
They said, ' A Mansion in theCountry is the place you oughtta be.'
So, they loaded up the Jumbo and flew to Tennessee.
Nashville, that is, Huge Ass Homes, Gas guzzling cars.


Well now its time to say goodbye to AL and all his kin.
And they would like to thank you Libfolks fer kindly droppin' in.
You're all invited back next week to this locality
To have a heapin' helpin' of their ideology


Libilly that is. Smoke a dube, Take your sandels off.


Y'all come back now, y'hear?

Come On Jay Join In The Barn Yard Dance! YeeeHaww!!!

Answer that simple question, then, Zat?

#139 | Posted by tadowe

He can't. He doesn't even understand the gibberish he posts. All he knows is that the computer models are peer reviewed and approved.

First, if you are in any way honest, can you admit that the Sun is the major cause of any change in Global Warming?

I love the "if you are in any way honest" positioning. "Are you still beating your wife?" works, too.

The actual researchers that did the actual analysis don't believe it. I've already linked Solanki and Nigel Weiss' rebuttal of how their work had been mischaracterized.

Jay does his research and gets demeaned. You're not supposed to actually do research and read the actual data. You're supposed to accept the faux "science" of articles and opinion pieces that mischaracterize the actual work.

Bad Jay, bad!

Make the Rtards piss their pants

#3 | Posted by axe

I guess that the warm yellow water going into your mouth gave you the clue.

Do try to come up with some kind of a valid arguement next time.

Jay does his research and gets demeaned. You're not supposed to actually do research and read the actual data. You're supposed to accept the faux "science" of articles and opinion pieces that mischaracterize the actual work.

#148 | Posted by YAV

It's no more necessary than having to know how cars are designed and manufactured to know if the one you drive is well made.

The question revolves around the proportionality between natural CO2, human CO2 and the other warming gases, especially water vapor. I can never get a straight answer from the warmists because it undermines their thesis.

Humanity itself creates CO2 simply by breathing out.

Mankinds attendent industries also create CO2 by the burning of fossil fuels for energy.

The mechanism for maintaining a balance in the atmosphere includes the oceans and the bio-mass.

The Bio-mass continues to be de-nuded at an increasing pace.

The warming oceans are achieving a tipping point beyond which they themselves will begin contributing to the CO2 emission.

So to put that in short and sweet form, our emissions continually rise while the planets ability to deal with them continually decrease.

One line on the chart goes up up up.

The other line goes down down down.

You don't hafta be a rocket scientist to see where that leads us in time.

One bright spot is that the massive pollution in our atmosphere has thus far prevented a more drastic rise in GW/CC to date.

Which puts us in a "damned if we do damned if we don't" position vis a vis cleaning up our poisoned air.

Meanwhile, assclowns like Mad Tad the Addlepated go on and on about the sun's contributions and how miniscule to the point of insignificance is mankinds contribution to the problem.

Ignoring the reality of the Global Warming Denial industry sponsored by the globes biggest polluters to the tune of multi-millions annually in order to achieve cognitive dissonance on the subject or at the very least affect public opinion in such a way as to make achieving concensus more difficult.

Tsk tsk.

The idea that there are greed-fueled asswipes out there looking to make a quik buck offa GW/CC is a seperate debate from the one that it exists and must be addressed.

KK?

Be Well.

Yav supports the faithful, "I love the "if you are in any way honest" positioning. "Are you still beating your wife?" works, too."

The comparison isn't the same, but you inveterate misdirectors can't help doing so! Besides, here you are simply (in all its pejorative sense) misdirecting the fact that you don't answer the question, either.

"The actual researchers that did the actual analysis don't believe it. I've already linked Solanki and Nigel Weiss' rebuttal of how their work had been mischaracterized."

The question wasn't about any work by those interested in reinforcing belief in man made Global Warming. I asked:

Isn't the Sun the major source of Global Warming?

"Jay does his research and gets demeaned."

Not so! Jay looked until he found a source which fitted his heuristic belief in man made Global Warming. His previous understanding, probably based on HS science, was that Nature is the source of the major proportion of the atmosphere's total of 0.0380% CO2 ... and mankind about as much as 10% (although that figure is an exaggeration, too.)

My real concern over Jay's "research," is that Jay seems so easily swayed by one source, and which is parroted in its advanced mathematical lie by the left. No one from the left even bothers to consider the amazing feat that mankind CAN produce more of anything than can the Earth!

We need to eradicate termites - Nature's primary source of animal CO2.

Next, any of those vast herds of ruminant animals that assist Nature in producing vast amounts of CO2.

Then, those smaller oxygen breathing and *evil* CO2 producing animals that are Nature's source of CO2.

Block the rivers so that the sea becomes stagnant and produces more Algae to scrub CO2 back into the ocean, where vast amounts came from, and are continuing to come from by the rotting of vast amounts of Algae for untold millions of years!

No, members of your faith will never, ever bother to actually look into Nature's production of CO2, like the volcanic action which has increased along with Zatoichi's charts ... you can only see mankind's small percentage of Nature's vast amount of CO2 - 0.0380% of Earth's atmosphere.

Then, you blow it up into being the CAUSE of Global Warming ... like the zealous liars of Islamic Jihadism blow up their own (pun intented.)

What a bunch of stooges for the tobacco billionair: Al Gore, you and your ilk just happen to be!

Isn't the Sun the major source of Global Warming?

No. (Duh).

As to Ray's question, here's an attempt, though I acknowledge no attempt or answer will satisfy some.

Energy from the Sun hits the Earth's surface. The many frequencies that comprise light (lots of visible and higher frequencies) pass through CO2 and other greenhouse gasses with little effect.

The Earth absorbs these higher energies and reradiates the energy. It goes outward, towards space - now in the (predominately) LOWER Infrared wavelengths (also known as "heat").

CO2 reflects both incoming and outgoing infrared energy. The amount coming in is much less than the amount reradiating back into space, since the higher wavelengths have been absorbed and are now reradiating as infrared. CO2 now reflects back to Earth a portion of that energy. Not a huge amount, fortunately. The rest, the majority, is radiated out to space.

CO2 acts sort of like a mirror - reflecting a portion of the infrared back - either as incoming or outgoing radiation. Since the level coming in is substantially less than the amount radiating back into space, CO2's effect on us living on the Earth's surface, is multiplied.

This is all due to a (proportionately) small amount of CO2. Sort of like a thin spattered pattern of silver on a mirror (if you want bad analogies).

So, if a tiny little amount of CO2 can have that much affect, what would happen if it was doubled?

The question you don't want answered is how can a gas that's so proportionately small compared to other atmospheric gases have so much effect? How sensitive is our planet to changes (like 30%) in the amount of this gas?

Instead, the obvious and well known mechanism of how the Earth has always functioned, the basics of light, solar radiation, the nature of gases, the size of molecules and the effective reflectance get dismissed because "CO2? There's hardly any CO2!"

The argument being offered is "It's such a small amount, doubling it..." (doubling the reflected amount of energy back to the Earth's surface!) "...can't have any effect."

pass through CO2 and other greenhouse gasses with little effect*

*WRT the argument at hand

"Not a huge amount, fortunately. The rest, the majority, is radiated out to space."

This is awful on my part. Too much editing and trying to rewrite things to make it simple. I completely changed the sense.

The majority of light is radiated out, (visble, infrared, etc.) but the component amount of infrared is largely NOT radiated out into space.

What was that Yav? Global warming for dummies?

They don't teach climate science to engineers and I don't feel like spending the years debunking global warming like I did with the Bible.

It's not hard to find climate scientists who dispute the global warming thesis.
epw.senate.gov

So where does that leave us? When I see politicians, bureaucratic agencies and government money involved, I smell a bogeyman.

With the world economy collapsing, CO2 emissions are dropping in proportion. To attempt to regulate CO2 is just plain nuts. And I am certain most other nations will not go along. Tad has it nailed down.

So where does that leave us? When I see politicians, bureaucratic agencies and government money involved, I smell a bogeyman.

And yet, in a wonderful fashion, you use a political website run by Inhofe no less!

Awesome!

Deth says, "The Bio-mass continues to be de-nuded at an increasing pace."

This is an untrue inference. If you are saying that "forests" are being decreased, then you already know that husbandry has already provided more "forest" than the USA had prior to Western incursion. If you are saying that it is the lack of old growth "forest," then you also know that more biomass results when the shade of these mature "forests" is removed. In fact, those who use the term "pollution" as an epithet, are whining over increases in algae, and which may be impacting CO2 exhaling animal species; e.g., frogs, and fish populations.

So, your claim isn't supported by facts, just spouted as an hysterical (chicken-little) complaint, and at best, specious.

"The warming oceans are achieving a tipping point beyond which they themselves will begin contributing to the CO2 emission."

Increased ocean temperatures would release increased CO2 by sublimation, but it would also increase the algae growth, proportionally. The cycle is closed and continues to keep the various levels of our atmospheric gases at a constant.

However, increases in CO2 don't necessarily lead to increases in GW, since there are many geological periods, where the facts show that it was colder, but at a much higher level of CO2 than now. And also, vice versa, there were times when CO2 levels were lower, but where the temperature was much higher. Although a closed cycle, it is obvious that CO2, by itself, is not what causes GW.

"So to put that in short and sweet form, our emissions continually rise while the planets ability to deal with them continually decrease."

When Mt Pinatubo went ballistic, the world's level of CO2 was dramatically increased, and continued to receive CO2 out gassing at a continuous rate. After a year, studies indicated that worldwide CO2 levels had initially risen, but had fallen back to "normal" levels, after a year. Guess what? During that same measurement period, our CO2 emissions remained the same, or increased some, if you will, but the Earth's "norm" was repaired by the Water Cycle, and other processes, at the same time!

"Meanwhile, assclowns like Mad Tad the Addlepated go on and on about the sun's contributions and how miniscule to the point of insignificance is mankinds contribution to the problem."

See? Even the vaunted intellect of the Canadian Great White North can admit that the majority of GW would HAVE to be from the Sun!

They run screaming from acknowledging that our percent of contribution to CO2 could never cause GW, in the face of the geological science they misrepresent proving otherwise!

With all the editorial freedom in the world, and the Man Made GW faithful can't change the facts, even on Wikipedia!

If you are saying that "forests" are being decreased, then you already know that husbandry has already provided more "forest" than the USA had prior to Western incursion.

Dead Wrong and also you fail to note that American based businesses through the auspices of the IMF and World Bank use a form of economic terrorism to force other countries primarily in the Southern Cone to denude their forests for increased profit to the invesotr class in the US and around the globe.

Increased ocean temperatures would release increased CO2 by sublimation, but it would also increase the algae growth, proportionally.

Neglects the fact that increased ocean pollution is killing off various algae species most notably in the areas closest to so-called civilisation.

See? Even the vaunted intellect of the Canadian Great White North can admit that the majority of GW would HAVE to be from the Sun!

How you even began to infer that from Spud's statement is a complete and utter mystery only obvious to the dim recesses of yer so-called mind.

Be Well.

www.gsfc.nasa.gov

What water cycle? It pays to know what the heck it is you're talking about.

And yet, in a wonderful fashion, you use a political website run by Inhofe no less!
Awesome!
#157 | Posted by YAV

What is awesome is how you connect two things that have nothing to do with each other. That talent must come in handy when you weave your tale of man-made global warming.

You seem to have more than a passing interest in this topic. Is there a professional interest?

Spud sputters, "Dead Wrong ..."

Whoa! You actually ignore the science! Even they make excuses while acknowledging that more forest area is under growth than before America was "discovered."

Many sites actually lie, and claim 3/4 of America was forest, all the while ignoring the vast Sonoron desert that extends from Canada deep into Mexico, the plains supporting its millions in buffalo, and the extensive lack of forest for 3/4 of the entire West coast, from the Pacific extending into the Sonoron desert and the plains of Texas.

There is more forest, some of which is in areas that *never* had forest before, to any great extent; e.g., Kansas and Colorado, among other areas; but it just isn't "old growth" forest, and which actually denudes undergrowth by its shade, and herbacidal leaf "exhaust" of oxygen.

Indeed, as can readily be observed, there is far more leaf mass (your 'biomass') growing *after* old growth is removed and the sunlight reaches the seeds of herbs and other plants. Trees aren't the "secret" and only CO2 scrubbers.

Actually, the "secret" forests are the vast forests of kelp growing in abundance all over the world and even at depth where little or no light descends ... truly the "real" scrubbers of CO2 and at the "carbonated" source, too: undersea carbon caught in rocks and released as CO2.

"Neglects the fact that increased ocean pollution is killing off various algae species most notably in the areas closest to so-called civilisation."

It is affecting algae, not "killing it off." Algae is actually encouraged by our "pollution" in fertilizers, however much it may be affected by other environmental contaminants. Indeed, so are the "secret" forests encouraged by the plant fertilization of mankind. That's because the various cycles of the Earth's atmosphere, land, atmosphere and oceans/water keep contaminants at a relatively low level over the entire extent of the environment. We only poison ourselves and our apparently consensual partnership(s); e.g., dogs, cats, rats, coyotes, possums, mice, ad nauseam, and not the entire Earth.

"How you even began to infer that from Spud's statement is a complete and utter mystery only obvious to the dim recesses of yer so-called mind."

It was sarcasm, because you are obviously incapable of making that statement, but can only mock me, in place of acknowledging that fact, or trying to dispute it, as you know you can't do.

From the Wiki article Tad posted, China is the world's biggest producer of CO2, exceeding the US. We can exclude them as a cooperating nation. And their industrialization is just getting going.

"According to a preliminary estimate by the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency, the largest national producer of CO2 emissions since 2006 has been China with an estimated annual production of about 6200 megatonnes. China is followed by the United States with about 5,800 megatonnes. However the per capita emission figures of China are still about one quarter of those of the US population.
"Over the 2000-2010 interval China is expected to increase its carbon dioxide emissions by 600 Mt, largely because of the rapid construction of old-fashioned power plants in poorer internal provinces."

" * water vapor, which contributes 36-72%
* carbon dioxide, which contributes 9-26%
* methane, which contributes 4-9%
* ozone, which contributes 3-7%"

"Water vapor accounts for the largest percentage of the greenhouse effect, between 36% and 66% for water vapor alone, and between 66% and 85% when factoring in clouds"

In sum. This is a joke! What happened to the days when everybody complained about the weather but knew they couldn't do anything about it?

AXIOM, you and Fox News are delusional. Period.

Ray, no, no professional interest.

Two things: Water vapor is an extremely volatile element in the greenhouse gas mix. It varies all over the place, but volumetrically, it's constant enough over time. to be treated differently than the other gasses. Why? The other gasses establish the floor from which water vapor operates. I know, it's a compelling gas to throw out there because there's just so much of it. Who can resist such a sexy argument?

This is an area that (I think) will become more interesting as we get more into the research. How will clouds affect the overall temperature? How will the absence of ice caps influence clouds? Will there be an increase in water vapor, or will there be more clouds?

Right now the JAXA (Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency" has a satellite that's just started transmitting the first data. It still has to be calibrated, etc. but we're already getting some interesting data from it. The simulated (predicted) results verses the actual measured values are quite interesting:

www.jaxa.jp

You see, my interest is much more in the science, not the policy or the politics. The politics can be interesting - but mostly because there is flagrant misuse of the science and the findings of researchers. I find it fascinating that so few people are willing to look at what's actually been found, and instead rely heavily on opinion pieces from politicians that tell them what to believe.

BTW, that post (epw.senate.gov ) with the 650 "scientists?" Isn't that about the same number of 9/11 truther "engineers?"

Actually it's worse. No one signed that petition except Inhofe. Why? Because Inhofe collected statements made, lots out of context, and put them together in a "report."

Take Joanne Simpson (number 2 on Inhofe's webpage you supplied). What's her complete in context quote that Inhofe lifted part of for his "report?"

"What should we as a nation do? Decisions have to be made on incomplete information. In this case, we must act on the recommendations of Gore and the IPCC because if we do not reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and the climate models are right, the planet as we know it will in this century become unsustainable. But as a scientist I remain skeptical."

The whole report is a political extravaganza of bullshit. No signatures of any of the actual people that are supposed to have "turned against the U.N."

That should have been a clue. "Turned against the U.N."

Why do I know Inhofe? He's a repeat offender and has pissed off so many researchers for lying about what they've said. That's why I said "AWESOME!" earlier.

I'm just sayin' ...

Yav can't help but misdirect, "Two things: Water vapor is an extremely volatile element in the greenhouse gas mix."

It varies in relatively small localities, but can be considered to be 1-2% as an average, and in just the same way the GW "experts" average CO2.

"... but volumetrically, it's constant enough over time."

So that the average, as mentioned, can be stated. However, "science" attempts to divide H2O out of the model by acting as if it were a "1" mathematically, and NOT 1% "volumetrically."

"... The other gasses establish the floor from which water vapor operates."

Exactly as I said! The Sun is considered a mathematical constant, "1," and also divide it out of the GW Model. Methane, and other pollutants are claimed to be important, but not as much as CO2.

So, the "FLOOR" you mention is really only CO2! That is the only variant considered in all GW models of mathematical guessing! The Sun is discarded, the Earth's radiation is discarded, H2O is discarded, and CO2 is so much more important in its 0.0380% than H2O which is between 0 (in relatively small localities) to 4% of the total; average 2%.

That makes H2O from say 380 times more important as a Green House gas, upt to 1560 times more of the problem than is CO2 ...

... YET THE LEFT AND GW ALARMISTS IGNORE H2O, the Earth's heat reflection variability and the Sun's heat which begins the whole process ...

... and they call it "science!"

Mankind only adds up to 10% of Natures 0.0380% of the total atmospheric CO2, and that means that mankind only adds 0.00380%, or 3.8 one thousandth of the total atmospheric CO2 ...

... but the chicken littles fool the dupes into believing that the sky is falling ....

What a bunch of idiots, those dupes just happen to be!

"What a bunch of idiots, those dupes just happen to be!"

#166 | Posted by tadowe at 2009-04-18 09:52 PM | Reply | Flag: shiny mirror

#167 | Posted by Zorg_the_Vogon at 2009-04-18 10:03 PM | Reply | Flag: Duped

It varies in relatively small localities, but can be considered to be 1-2% as an average, and in just the same way the GW "experts" average CO2.

Close. 1st part, close enough. 2nd part, Incorrect.

So that the average, as mentioned, can be stated. However, "science" attempts to divide H2O out of the model by acting as if it were a "1" mathematically, and NOT 1% "volumetrically."

Incorrect. It's treated as 1-2%, but the net effect both in the models which include it and in the measured results correlate. The effect is effectively a constant, not "1" mathematically.

Exactly as I said! The Sun is considered a mathematical constant, "1," and also divide it out of the GW Model. Methane, and other pollutants are claimed to be important, but not as much as CO2.

The other gasses are extremely important and are part of the models. Solar irradiance is also quite important, and if you knew Solanki's and Weiss' work you'd know the contribution due to solar variance.

So, the "FLOOR" you mention is really only CO2! That is the only variant considered in all GW models of mathematical guessing! The Sun is discarded, the Earth's radiation is discarded, H2O is discarded, and CO2 is so much more important in its 0.0380% than H2O which is between 0 (in relatively small localities) to 4% of the total; average 2%.

Again, no. CO2 is not the only gas, nor is the FLOOR based on it. Again, my earlier discussion was limited only to CO2 because of simplicity, not because of the models, the data, the research, the empirical data or the satellite data. If you had read the last link I posted, you'd know what IBUKI was all about.

The rest of your post was complete fantasy based on your previous incorrect notions.

rivers that catch fire and air you can see are a good thing!

#28 | Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2009-04-17 10:43 PM | Reply

CO-2 doesn't burn you idiot.

CO-2 is also invisible, moron.

Try using a little common sense.

#33 | Posted by vernon at 2009-04-17 11:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hey Shit-heap, I was talking about Regans gutting of the EPA in the 80's when rivers did burn and you could see the air in some parts.

Do try and keep up with the very simple words I initially wrote. I mean after all, I did dumb it down for folks like you and still you cant comprehend it.

These emissions were regulated before Reagan took office and gutted the EPA. After all, rivers that catch fire and air you can see are a good thing!

#28 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

LOL. yeah right.

You're thinking of China, aren't you. LOL

#40 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-04-18 01:36 AM | Reply | Flag:


Ohio actually.

Why do I know Inhofe? He's a repeat offender and has pissed off so many researchers for lying about what they've said. That's why I said "AWESOME!" earlier.
#165 | Posted by YAV

See? I never heard of him.

I have no issue with those like yourself, studying climate and coming to conclusions, right or wrong. I take issue when those conclusions metastasize into government regulations. About the only thing government is good at is collecting taxes. They thrive on imaginary fears; it's worse than religion.

If you are sincerely interested in truth, I suggest you take a deeper interest in the weaknesses of mathematical modeling. Climate models have the same flaws as economic models, in that they are crude approximations.

As with humans, your data is non-linear. Both tend toward equilibrium but never achieve equilibrium. The dynamic forces that keep climate and human systems from achieving equilibrium are unpredictable.

Conversely, mathematical equations are static and have to show equilibrium. To get a change in output, the programmer has to change the input variables with nothing to go on but assumptions. His raw data is scattered, so he has to average each variable into equation form. Finally, he has a collection of equations that he has to solve simultaneously in a big matrix. They can't capture inflection points; all they can do is extrapolate.

As computers got more powerful, scientists and economists convinced themselves they could replace the earlier methods with computer models. In simple cases, it works. But in large dynamic, chaotic cases it doesn't.

In other words, Ray feels that if there is only a 99.99% chance the world is fucked if we don't do something, we should just trust Flush Rimjob and Exxon Mobil and stick our heads up our ass and do nothing.

Here's the reality, Axe. To do the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing.

If you take this CO2 scare seriously, then realize that CO2 emissions are falling in proportion to the collapsing world economy. Regulations are only not necessary, they worsen the collapse.

The Asian nations are not buying this bullshit. All Obama is accomplishing is putting us at a competitive disadvantage.

In other words, Ray wants us to trust China and do as they do. Buy more crap from Walmart and everything will be fine. Pay no attention to the thousands of real scientists. Only listen to the ones who agree with Sean Hannity.

No. What constitutes a lack of thought is your math - that you seem to think that a 5% reduction in global CO2 emmissions will result in a 5% drop in temperature. If you are going to peddle this bullshit, at least have a rudimentary understanding of the extremely tenuous computer models you are basing your specious reasoning on.

If your going to try and peddle comments on thought I think you need to understand what was being posted first. You missed the point and not sure if it was ignorance or just blind hacking stupidity.

How long can your body sustain 1 degree temperature rise? The earth is nothing more than a body.

If we can effect less than 1% difference could be the difference from critical ICU to stable just in temperature alone.

The simple fact that you come on here on a continuous basis spouting about never having to worry about pollution shows the real lack of thought in the first place.

How is that huffing on the tail pipe doing anyway? And as far as CO2 being life giving, that is basic science of the 4th grade which you seemed not not understand. O2 is our life giving and even too much of that is dangerous to our health.

In other words, Ray wants us to trust China and do as they do. Buy more crap from Walmart and everything will be fine. Pay no attention to the thousands of real scientists. Only listen to the ones who agree with Sean Hannity.

#175 | Posted by axe

I'm sorry. I thought you were capable of thinking.

but comes at an economically-staggering cost; I find myself torn between attempting to educate the alarmists on this front, which has proven futile thus far, and wanting to mock the alarmists.

LOL!

Do you even know what you are talking about?

What is the economically staggering cost for setting standards that pollute less leaving ourselves a cleaner environment.

The fact that you mischaracterize the idea of pollution to global warming is telling in and of itself.

Hows that huffing coming along? I bet you leave your waste at camp sights because the cost is too great to pack it out.

Stunningly honest Ray. You just admitted that it's perfectly OK to lie, misrepresent, misquote, take quotes out of context, use tax payer funded websites, hearings (Inhofe) for distribution of this misinformation as long as it means no Government regulation.

You see one side of the 'fear' card and not the other. All the deniers do is scream how doing something will destroy our industry and our financial system. Then they claim, based on all the lies Big Oil funded politicians and "think" tanks put out there, that there's no warming. When even they can't deny the warming, they retrench and then say warming is happening but man has nothing to do with it. When called on that, they go back to picking a few data sets out of a trend and say that disproves the trend.

It's nonstop, The counter argument has nothing to do with the science or research. The counter argument is all about wrapping itself in the cloak of "science" all the while completely disregarding it. Calling the researchers and their work political is the ultimate hypocrisy and projection.

At least we finally got to the crux of the matter, eh?

Deniers don't scream about what it will do to industry..that is a red herring.

The crux of the discussion is that:

1) The earth has been MUCH warmer in the past while at the same time having drastically less CO2 levels

2) It has been MUCH colder in the past while sustaining far higher CO2 levels than are in the atmosphere today

3)The vast majority of the cooling and heating of the earth is based on solar cycle, the orbit of the earth around the sun not being perfect resulting in times when the earth is farther away or nearer depednign on which part of the cycle it is in, and wobbels in the earths access resulting in the same effect on a smaller scale.

The travesty here is that the environmental discussion is being dominated by "climate change" like somehow the earths climate miraculously got stable since the last "mini-ice age" that ended in the 1800's and completely discounts the fact that the earths climate goes cold and warm ALL ON ITS OWN.

There are REAL environmental problems like pollution being dumped in rivers like pesticides and fertilizers, overfishing, and pollutants such as arsenic and others being pumped from plants that need to be controlled.

Diverting attention to CO2 production focuses on the exact wrong topic since there is an equal amount of science to show CO2 is meanignless since it is spewed forth by nature all the time.

Wake up and worry about the real problems. The next ice age is coming and it WILL come even if we shut down every factory on the planet, and no one ever drives a car again.

wow spell check would have been a smart idea. access=axis wobbels=wobbles depednign=depending

ah forget it to many to list

Whoa, Yav! I said I never heard of Inhofe. I wasn't denying global warming; I take issue with cause and effect and predictability. I came into this with a fairly good understanding of science, religion, politics and economics. I take pride in being an independent thinker, which is why I'm usually in a tiny minority on most issues.

Calling the researchers and their work political is the ultimate hypocrisy and projection.

I don't question your sincerity no more than I question the sincerity of priests and establishment economists. It was politics that gave me grounds for suspicion. As I dug deeper, I saw a false paradigm based on mathematical modeling. I explained its flaws above. And I have a hard time reconciling anthropogenic CO2 as a significant greenhouse gas relative to the totality of other effects.

That is the crux of the matter.

Ray,

I genuinely appreciate the time you took in responding. We may disagree, but we don't need to question that we both want what is best. Thanks for the discussion.


It's about time. Future generations will thank us for finally waking up to the reality of climate change and doing something about it.

#13 | Posted by rcade at 2009-04-17 09:37 PM


Exactly why you're in the blog/opinion business. Cause you sure don't have a grasp on natural world.


When the plants start dying and respritory disease increases what will you say? Sorry?

Does anyone not realize how stupid they sound when they get into hysterics over "climate change?"

At one point in the earths history was the climate NOT in a constantly changing pattern?

one = What

That's it I am done for the day I have a lawn to mow.

Yav lies like a rug #169, "Close. 1st part, close enough. 2nd part, Incorrect."

That's it, creepoid! The GW advocates don't average worldwide CO2, sure, sure they don't ...

Who can even begin to discuss anything with base liars like Yav?

That's it, creepoid! The GW advocates don't average worldwide CO2, sure, sure they don't ...
Who can even begin to discuss anything with base liars like Yav?

That was rude. Oh well. Let's recap:

"It varies in relatively small localities, but can be considered to be 1-2% as an average, and in just the same way the GW "experts" average CO2."

What I said was:

Close. 1st part, close enough. 2nd part, Incorrect.

Since I left it as a simple "incorrect" and you took such umbrage, let me illustrate and we'll let others determine my integrity.

First, you're ignoring the factually differentiating characteristics) between water vapor and CO2 such as a) condensation (clouds), changes state in extremely localized areas and b) rapid water vapor cycle (not applicable to CO2.) It makes no sense to treat them the same.

But let's move on to an actual model and how it treats carbon. I'll use a simple equilibrium model for simplicity. The way carbon is treated in the simple model is more than sufficient to prove my contention that CO2 is not treated as a constant:

A Carbon Model.

The carbon model is made up of a relationship between the change in base CO2, outside contribution (human, etc.), carbon flux between the atmosphere and the ocean and carbon flux between the atmosphere and the biosphere and carbon emissivity. The relationship is non-linear, in fact, it's logarithmic and is a product of several variables and functions. The Carbon flux between atmosphere and biosphere is also impacted by temperature. Now we're getting very non-linear.

This alone illustrates that CO2 is not treated as a constant, but is a logarithmic result comprised of several functions and constants - each of which have their own dynamics. This interaction underscores why the effect of CO2 (once again, ignoring the other greenhouse gasses) is non-linear. Simply stopping additional output of CO2 doesn't yield linear results. Nor does adding more result in a linear (or constant) change in result.

BTW, I was being generous with the "close enough" on water vapor and decided to treat your response WRT net effect, rather than quibble over the misuse of the term "constant."

So, IMHO, I don't believe you have any standing in calling me a "base liar" or "creepoid." (though I enjoyed the "retro" tone of that insult.)

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