Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, April 17, 2009

President Obama said Thursday that he will not prosecute government agents who used harsh interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists, and signaled he does not support any retrospective examination of how those techniques were developed and used.

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I think Obama's making an enormous mistake on this, giving the torturers a Mulligan in the interest of "moving along."

It reminds me of the "pass" Gerald Ford gave Richard Nixon, pardoning him for Watergate and other crimes. (Although in that instance those lower on the food chain were, in the memorable and presceint parlance of the time, allowed "to twist slowly, slowly in the wind"; words uttered, fittingly enough, by John Ehrlichman, himself a perpetrator and victim in a hubristic drama of which Shakespeare himself might have been proud.)

The nation's longterm interests, it was argued then (and now), lay in relegating "the White House horrors" (tm John Mitchell) to the past and moving on into the future.

As George Santayana once observed, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Keith Olbermann's comments focus on the idea of giving torturers a Mulligan in the interest of moving along are powerful.

As promised, a Special Comment now on the president's revelation of the remainder of this nightmare of Bush Administration torture memos. This President has gone where few before him, dared. The dirty laundry illegal, un-American, self-defeating, self-destroying is out for all to see.

Mr. Obama deserves our praise and our thanks for that. And yet he has gone but half-way. And, in this case, in far too many respects, half the distance is worse than standing still. Today, Mr. President, in acknowledging these science-fiction-like documents, you said that:

"This is a time for reflection, not retribution. I respect the strong views and emotions that these issues evoke."

"We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history.

"But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.

Mr. President, you are wrong. What you describe would be not "spent energy" but catharsis.
Not "blame laid," but responsibility ascribed. You continued:

"Our national greatness is embedded in America's ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future."

Indeed we must, Mr. President. And the forces of which you speak are the ones lingering with pervasive stench from the previous administration. Far more than a criminal stench, Sir. An immoral one. One we cannot let be re-created.
(continued. . .)


Olbermann continued:

One, President Obama, it is your responsibility to make sure cannot be re-created. Forgive me for quoting from a Comment I offered the night before the inauguration. But this goes to the core of the President's commendable, but wholly naive, intention. This country has never "moved forward with confidence".without first cleansing itself of its mistaken past.

In point of fact, every effort to merely draw a line in the sand and declare the past dead has served only to keep the past alive and often to strengthen it. We "moved forward" with slavery in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. And four score and nine years later, we had buried 600,000 of our sons and brothers, in a Civil War.

After that war's ending, we "moved forward" without the social restructuring and protection of the rights of minorities in the south. And a century later, we had not only not resolved anything, but black leaders were still being assassinated in our southern cities.

We "moved forward" with Germany in the reconstruction of Europe after the First World War.
Nobody even arrested the German Kaiser, let alone conducted war crimes trials then. And 19 years later, there was an indescribably more evil Germany and a more heart-rending Second World War.

We "moved forward" with the trusts of the early 1900s. And today, we are at the mercy of corporations too big to fail. We "moved forward" with the Palmer Raids and got McCarthyism.
And we "moved forward" with McCarthyism and got Watergate. We "moved forward" with Watergate and junior members of the Ford administration realized how little was ultimately at risk.

They grew up to be Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. But, Mr. President, when you say we must "come together on behalf of our common future" you are entirely correct. We must focus on getting things right in the future, as opposed to looking at what we got wrong in the past.

That means prosecuting all those involved in the Bush administration's torture of prisoners, even if the results are nominal punishments, or merely new laws. Your only other option is to let this set and fester indefinitely. Because, Sir, some day there will be another Republican president, or even a Democrat just as blind as Mr. Bush to ethics and this country's moral force. And he will look back to what you did about Mr. Bush. Or what you did not do.

And he will see precedent. Or as Cheney saw, he will see how not to get caught next time. Prosecute, Mr. President. Even if you get not one conviction, you will still have accomplished good for generations unborn. Merely by acting, you will deny a further wrong that this construction will enter the history books: Torture was legal. It worked. It saved the country.

The end. This must not be. "It is our intention," you said today, "to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution." Mr. President, you are making history's easiest, most often made, most dangerous mistake you are accepting the defense that somebody was "just following orders." At the end of his first year in office, Mr. Lincoln tried to contextualize the Civil War for those who still wanted to compromise with evils of secession and slavery. "The struggle of today," Lincoln wrote, "is not altogether for today. It is for a vast future also."

Mr. president, you have now been handed the beginning of that future. Use it to protect our children and our distant descendants from anything like this ever happening again by showing them that those who did this, were neither unfairly scapegoated nor absolved. It is good to say "we won't do it again." It is not, however...enough.

Source for Olbermann transcript: videocafe.crooksandliars.com

Olberfilth is a piece of trash, he is the most laughably seditious shitgbag ever put on television.

If you think anything that spills out of his stinking pie hole is 'truth', you are fucked up in the head.

I am angrt and disgusted over this. What Obama is in reality saying Laws and the Rule of Law only pertains to the little people. When You become a big people You can break the laws with impunity. Looks to me like I will be voting for Myself come 2012. Sighhhhhhhhh

Larry

angry too

From one of the Bushie memos, an Orewellian desciption of torture as "a controlled acute episode." (Page 11 of the 2002 memo, reproduced in its entirety [well,nearly, some redaction], can be found at 72.3.233.244

Seems to Me that the further we go the less of America remains/ If the Rule of Law doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.Then the United States ceases to exist and only a characture of Her once Grandness remains. Sucj a sad state of afrairs if You think about it for very long.

Larry

Seems to Me that the further we go the less of America remains/ If the Rule of Law doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.Then the United States ceases to exist and only a characture of Her once Grandness remains. Sucj a sad state of afrairs if You think about it for very long.

Larry

#8 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-04-17 08:49 AM



I guess the question is, do you go after the CIA agents that were following the guidelines that were provided?

Or, do you go after the shitbag lawyers at the Justice Department, that were twisting the law to fit with Bush and Cheney's doctrine?

I say go after the scum that made it possible.

Roy:

You go after all of them, at every level. Every one of them knew they were getting into areas the United States hadn't gotten into before, from Dubya on down.

But it's evidently not going to happen, which means that the next time we get a wannabe emperor in charge, these things will occur all over again.

For me, the most recent memo release only reinforces that concept Hannah Arendt, in her brilliant Eichmann in Jersusalem, pegged as "the banality of evil."

I'm glad Obama made this ruling, otherwise we were looking at months of leftist witch hunts. And for the leftist that would welcome the witch hunts, remember that the righties will at some point be in control again, and all of that switches sides.. which is the point.

The US is not a banana republic where we attempt to criminalize the policies of the party we defeat. We change polices with elections.. not criminal prosecutions or witch hunts. The presidency is a job for adults, and thank goodness Obama stepped up on this one.

Although I applaud Obama taking this stand, his nod to the left by releasing the interrogation memos is deplorable. For one thing, it reveals our techniques in detail to our enemies, and its going to chill a CIA officer from following orders, knowing that his supposedly classified and lawful actions are going to be held up the monday morning quarterbacking of the blogosphere .

It was a silly move. We live in a dangerous world, and governments have classified secrets for good reasons.

They won't go after anyone because they plan on using the same techniques. They also don't want anyone prosecuted to open up and admit we've been doing things you limp-wrists consider torture for multiple decades.

You can pretend it's something else, but that doesn't make it reality.

"And for the leftist that would welcome the witch hunts, remember that the righties will at some point be in control again, and all of that switches sides..
#12 | Posted by nmg_no at 2009-04-17 09:35 AM | Reply | Flag: Lockstep Rightbot Authoritarian Personality Disorder

Investigation or no investigation, the Bush war criminals are not going to get off scott free. As much as I'd like to see their asses serving hard time, it just doesn't happen to the people at the top. That's to say the ones who are truly responsible for the atrocities . . . like George Bush and, more specifically, Dick Cheney. They manage to insulate themselves (CYA) while their underlings twist in the wind.

Obama has been very effectively serving the Bush administration, piece by piece, up to the court of public opinion . . . a fate worse than death to those who hope to regain power some day.

In other words, Obama is quietly and methodically detroying, not just the individuals, but the entire extreme right wing philosophy that caused the almost irreparible damage we see before us today.

Obama's on the right track. The "bigger mission" is to prevent the neo-cons from ever, ever getting their talons into positions of power again. The "bigger mission" is, not prosecution (which is way too short sighted), but to show them up, day after day, for the maggots they are, left with no recourse but to feed on their own corpse until it has turned to dust.

Poor babies. We're still in Iraq, Gitmo is still operating (the mutts there claim things have gotten worse), we're escalating Afghanistan, and nobody is being prosecuted.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

And twinpac thinks anyone in the Bush Admin gives a fuck waht people think? You leftwing loonies are hilarious.

I've got a theory based on watching Obama over these last couple of years: He'll usually take a pragmatic, long-view approach to issues that many want immediate responses to.

Let me flesh this out. I don't think any of us believe that the current President thinks that the actions undertaken during the Bush Administration WEREN'T illegal and in violation of previous US and international law. Indeed, the Bush Justice Department interpreted the law to exempt both the activities and personnel they ordered to do what they did. But in the same vein, as President, Obama has now become the "keeper of the flame" in which POTUS' don't take open action to eviserate their predecessors lest the next opposition President might do the same to them on some future occassion.

So this is how I see this playing out. In order to have ANY authority to be successful at his job, Obama cannot be seen as an abject partisan by the opposition party. However, the saving grace here is the rule of law. The Bushies wrote all their opinions and memos outlining the legal justification for what they deemed necessary. In the end, the courts are going to have the final call as to whether this interpretation passes constitutional muster, and if like many of us believe that it can't, the Obama Justice Department will have no other recourse than to pursue legal action against those caught in this web. But the emphasis must come from "outside" the White House, not from within. This is where I trust Obama until I'm proven wrong.

If this scenario comes into play, Obama will have publically protected those who'll likely be prosecuted while still renouncing their actions, implicitly revealing his true feelings as a constitutional scholar. The right cannot accuse him of leading a witch hunt, but in the end, "right" will be vindicated as many believe it should be, and the Obama JD will competently pursue whatever legal actions the courts deem it should.

Again, based on recent events and history I see this as the most plausible course for these events to take, both protecting Obama's political capital as a fair, even-handed executive, but leading to the ends which law-abiding citizens rightly demand for those who operated outside the law under the color of authority they'd given themselves extralegally.

Interesting perspective, Twinpac. I don't recall whether the Church Committee's hearings (nearly 35 years ago!) resulted in prosecutions, but I do know that while its critics saw those hearings as damaging to US interests, intelligence gathering, etc., some of the horror stories it revealed managed to leave some sort of impact on public awareness.

i am in agreement with tony roma on this one

But it's evidently not going to happen, which means that the next time we get a wannabe emperor in charge, these things will occur all over again.

#10 | Posted by MaryTylerWhore at 2009-04-17 09:28 AM | Reply



At least it's change we can believe in

Obama's on the right track. The "bigger mission" is to prevent the neo-cons from ever, ever getting their talons into positions of power again. The "bigger mission" is, not prosecution (which is way too short sighted), but to show them up, day after day, for the maggots they are, left with no recourse but to feed on their own corpse until it has turned to dust.

#15 | Posted by Twinpac at 2009-04-17 09:48 AM | Reply

Twin:

Go open a window and get some oxygen into your room. And ask your mom to call the gas company. They'll usually do a gas-leak inspection for free.

New boss.....Same as the old boss.


Change you can believe in.

Must not... say... I told you... so...

When are guys going to learn?

Real happy to see Obama back off the assult weapons ban.

Now I get to watch all those who oppossed the ban cry that he broke a promise to reinstate the ban.

Cause I know there is no pleasing you hate-filled righties.

CHANGE?

I didn't want any gun laws changed. The laws aren't the problem. The .0001% of gun owners that give the rest of us a bad name are the problem.


Thanks, DOC

I can see the words "Wag the Dog" trying to form on Ginghrich's lips every time he speaks. An investigation from within, or even by a special prosecutor, would do nothing more than divert the media attention away from the enormous job Obama is trying to do and midirect it to gluttonous neo-cons holding a press conference on every street corner.

I like what Obama is doing. Methodically, thoughtfully, efficiently, indelibilly tatooing his footprint right where it belongs.

Methodically, thoughtfully, efficiently, indelibilly tatooing his footprint right where it belongs.

#27 | Posted by Twinpac at 2009-04-17 11:02 AM | Reply


Right on all of his subservient supporters asses.

But the thought of all those rednecks, shitting their pants and buying every last load of ammo off the shelves just got a whole lot funnier.

#27 | Posted by Twinpac

It's hilarious, the amount of moaning and groaning emanating from those huddled in the losers' corner. When their "argument" (read: daily wail) becomes, "See, Obama didn't do what you want, he did what we want, Obama bad" you know that teapot tempests like teleprompters and birth certificates were just harbingers of the low-end merchandise that's all they've got left to peddle.

As one who voted for President Obama an will vote for him again, this decision is WRONG....Clearly the CIA officers, are intelligent men an women the fact they would TORTURE an not question the methods just accept as gospel the ruling from the White House that it was legal is not enough. If this is to stand than we as Americans must PARDON all of those NAZI PARTY MEMBERS that we convicted for their part in the HOLOCAUST, after all they were only following orders........

This President has got to LEAD this Country an not worry about what the other party think of his policies. The CONSERVATIVE Republican Party an their News Network Fox News, will never accept his Presidency because the see him as an arrogant BLACK man, not as our President.

The Republican Party, an their Racist followers will never accept this President unless he can turn himself WHITE an promise to NUKE both Iran an North Korea, them an maybe only then they may have some good to say about this President.

So I say Mr. President lead on you have the Congress an the American People on your side, FUCK those Republican Racist Pricks, lead on an we will follow, BUT FUCKING LEAD!!!!!!!!

Fuck, sarvis... He didn't do what I want either.

"Huddled in the losers corner."

You guys can't help yourselves, dem or repub.

To quote jon stewart on crossfire, "stop hurting america."

He is leading this country.

You are just upset that he is leading more than the far left wing.

I knew the guy would be a Moderate and a Moderate is what we got!

Hip Hip Hu-fucking Hurray!

Obama: No Prosecutions for CIA Torture

A major mistake and the justice department should know better. Holder is making the same mistake that Gonzales made; they don't work for the president, they work for the American people!

One way of detering future presidents from engaging in illegal acts is to hold accountable, the people that are responsible for implementing their policies.

Watching you bitches continually rationalize why Obama hasn't called you after banging you is hilarious.

He's turning out to be pretty good huh Chair?

"I say go after the scum that made it possible."

And they won't be doing that either.

Celisary,
Its not just the gop that's holding him hostage its the CIA. He's fucked if they won't cooperate and he knows it.

Every last one of thes politicians is more concerned with holding power than doing right with it constitutionally speaking. And we're guilty of letting them get away with it.

This is so fucked up on so many levels. First off You are sending a grave message saying, If You get high enough in a positin of power the rules do not apply to You. Secondly You are telling and showing the world You don't live by the rules that You expect others to obey. Thirdly You are saying America is a rogue Country and She will behave very badly if She wants to. Finally You are saying to the next Generations that the Rule of Law is jusr blather and that this Ciybtry doesn't really believe in it. Such a sad day for Americans. What a disgrace this is.

Larry

Well, one good decision in the first 100 days. Maybe we will have another in the next 100 days.

But in the same vein, as President, Obama has now become the "keeper of the flame" in which POTUS' don't take open action to eviserate their predecessors lest the next opposition President might do the same to them on some future occassion.


Tonyroma wrote the above

Tony I think you are way wrong on this. If and when the conservatives gain power, they wont give a spit about the olive branches that Obama laid out. the right has demonstated a consistent antithapy to compromise and are interested only in crushing their political opponents.

I believe Obama is wrong. The best demonstration to the world of American righteousness would have been the complete and utter repudiation of these tactics by legal and lawful prosecution. I dont believe any low level CIA operative should or would have been given any jail time but those responsible, those at the top should be held accountable for their illegal activities.

and as for the comment that this would lead to america being a bananna republic if this were done, the opposite is true, the bananaa republics ignore the law and do what they want believing themselves above the law.


Obama got this wrong.


He's turning out to be pretty good huh Chair?

#36 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-04-17 11:22 AM | Reply


I don't like most of his cabinet picks, and I think he's spending way too much bread. I think he went over-board on the apologizing while in europe.

I also believe he's naive for conducting foriegn policy in public (the goofy letters, reset buttons, gifts, etc), but I haven't seen anything that I'd consider horrible.
Domestically I'm disappointed. The rest is a wash.
Don't hate him, don't love him.

So, to the people who disagree with this decision, what good would a 4-5 year, drawn out court battle do for America.

I really want to know how this distracting in-fighting would benefit our Union.

So, how would it?

Nice to see him growing on you Chair.

#41 | Posted by truthhurts at 2009-04-17 11:27 AM | Reply | Flag

Hahahahaha! In your face!...

Celine/Mohr 2012

You can be my Dan Quayle any day.

Watergate begat torture

what will torture begat?

that is the concern Many

if trying people is too hard, then yes say fuck it and move on.

"So how would it?"

You can't be serious.

God damm you're a whiney little bitch this morning Chairpussy!

#31 | Posted by celisary

Thanks for that over generalization that you no doubt got from Olbermann himself... Not all Conservative Republicans are as you say... despite what the left wing pundits declare or as Colbert likes to depict... :/


However, I don't see Obama changing these policies nor closing Guantanimo anytime in the near future.... because this goes well beyond the Bush Admin.. and the last thing the left or right wants is a witch hunt of sorts... It would only be fair if none where exempt from procecutions on all fronts... There are too many people on the hill that are for things before they are against them and vice versa... And it wouldn't surprise me if Obama's admin would ever be put into a position where they feel it's necissary to do the same things or come up with different techniques to do the same thing, regardless of how wrong it is... Which is one of the reasons I believe is why he won't outright condemn such acts.

In the end, the courts are going to have the final call as to whether this interpretation passes constitutional muster, and if like many of us believe that it can't, the Obama Justice Department will have no other recourse than to pursue legal action against those caught in this web.

It should not be up to some external entity to bring legal action against the previous administration when the current AG has already acknowledged that water boarding is torture and torture is illegal. If an illegal act has been committed, the AG has an obligation to prosecute.

The CONSERVATIVE Republican Party an their News Network Fox News, will never accept his Presidency because the see him as an arrogant BLACK man, not as our President.

and we hate queers and Jews too...clinging to my 9mm...


Oh...Fox my be OURS but you pocket pool playing panzies have NBC, MSNBC, CBS and NBC.

ABC

ABC

Don't forget that putting these people on trial does open the possibility of convicting them for their actions.

It also has the possibility of vindicating the actions of the entire administration.

And it wouldn't surprise me if Obama's admin would ever be put into a position where they feel it's necissary to do the same things or come up with different techniques to do the same thing, regardless of how wrong it is...


that's a matter for the jury and for sentencing.

Break the law-prosectue. Seems a pretty simple matter.

The underlying issue really is the power of the executive and Obama is not addressing this. Bush and Cheney have rewritten the constitutional powers of the executive branch, basically saying that the Exec. Branch is not beholden to laws from congress-that the laws created by congress do not apply to them. and obama is not doing anything about that. Why should he? He is the executive now.

our constitution and bill of rights are being ignored and rewritten and noone is even noticing.

Oh...Fox my be OURS but you pocket pool playing panzies have NBC, MSNBC, CBS and NBC.

#52 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Your hook, line and sinker is showing Guppy.

It also has the possibility of vindicating the actions of the entire administration.

#55 | Posted by Manypaths


Fine, than that is what should be. Does out nation condone torture? If so scream it from the mountain top. Otherwise snakes will grab power and do what we currently believe unthinkable.

I don't think the laws are as cut and dry as you think Truth. It would be unprecedented and very risky.

And it could lead to clearing Bush and everyone.

Fine, than that is what should be. Does out nation condone torture? If so scream it from the mountain top.

No we don't and our President has stood up and said just that.

This will hang over Bush's legacy forever.

precedent has been set that waterboarding is torture. We convicted Japanese soldiers of this.

We now do it.

That seems cut and dry to me.

Our nation needs to take a stand on torture AND on the executive branch power grab of which torture is an integral part. Ignoring it does not solve the problem as was stated by Olbmermann. It will only result in worse and festering problems in the long run.

If and when the conservatives gain power, they wont give a spit about the olive branches that Obama laid out. the right has demonstated a consistent antithapy to compromise and are interested only in crushing their political opponents.

Agreed! The only way that Obama will be able to protect himself and others in his admin is to not do anything that is illegal. That, in an of itself, won't prevent succeeding admins from going after him and his crew but it will prevent successful prosecutions.

Obama's vow of transparency will yield benefits in this regard as well because the people in his administration will know that whatever they do will be exposed and therefore, they will seriously consider whether or not to engage in illegal behavior.

The best insurance policy for the prevention of illegal behavior by any administration is the knowledge that a succeeding administration will haul their colletive butts before a judge.

No we don't and our President has stood up and said just that.


This will hang over Bush's legacy forever.

#60 | Posted by Manypaths


words

as described by Olbermann, the lesson that hte cheney's etal took from watergate is that when a certain level of power is reached there is no legal accountability. That is the lesson they learned. and they are seeing it again. Mid level and lower level govt employees/politicians are seeing this and taking the lesson to heart. you can do what you want. 20 or 30 years from now they will be in control and will know they can do most anything and get away with it.

Our nation needs to take a stand on torture AND on the executive branch power grab of which torture is an integral part. Ignoring it does not solve the problem as was stated by Olbmermann

Sorry, but Olbermann is an entertainer. His opinion on this doesn't mean anything to me. He sells a TV show.

But you think a very prolonged, public trial for the world to watch for years is a good thing for us and our image?

I don't. Bush was just a black eye on this country. No need to turn him into a crippling disease. Our respect around the world is already returning. I see nothing to be gained by dragging our recent, horrible past through the mud for 4 more years.

Move On. It works both ways.


God damm you're a whiney little bitch this morning Chairpussy!

#49 | Posted by Mista Kurtz at 2009-04-17 11:32 AM | Reply |


Damn that's funny. In a thread where all you Obama Sycophants are whining he didn't do what you expected him to do, and I'm laughing at you and your disappointment, you tell me I'm whining...

You're a gem, whoever you are.

In a thread where all you Obama Sycophants are whining he didn't do what you expected him to do

Excuse me?

#56 | Posted by truthhurts

~~~

However, with matters of the Government what seems simple to us little peons that support them and vote for them seems to get miles more complicated up on the hill... Thinner air maybe, lack of oxygen?

Excuse me?

#66 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-04-17 11:49 AM | Reply


I'm using #8 shot, not a slug.

sorry many but I believe you are being naive. you may move on but the decision makers will take this lesson to heart. that is the problem with ignoring it.

The more important point here is Obama has now given the terrorist important information that in the future we will handle you with kid gloves.

Obama has now increased the chances of a terrorist stike on our country. SAD, SAD, SAD. You will be remembered as the president that let our guard down. You have just reenforced my opinion that you are UNQUALIFIED to be president.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Truth.

I'll continue looking forward.

"I'll continue looking forward."

Meaningless platitude flag.

Obama has now increased the chances of a terrorist stike on our country.
#70 | Posted by ozzieoswald at 2009-04-17 11:53 AM | Reply |


Stupid,
Terrorist didn't refrain from attacking the country out of fear of being tortured.
Choke yourself.

Welcome to the discussion Hag. Anything to add or just trolling?

Obama has now increased the chances of a terrorist stike on our country. SAD, SAD, SAD. You will be remembered as the president that let our guard down. You have just reenforced my opinion that you are UNQUALIFIED to be president.


as opposed to bush who actually LET his guard drop and allowed an attack on our country.

Don't be too rough on Oozie, 101. After all, he just completed his first successfully plagiarized post.

We know this because up until this point, he has never, ever made a post without gross spelling and grammar errors.

I think this is a shrewd move by Obama. He is cleaving off the rank and file CIA/FBI from their handlers (namely GHW Bush and his Langley cabal). Divide and conquer has worked for many, many years and once the CIA/FBI has split loyalties (between GHW Bush and Obama) it will be easier to control all three entities (GHW Bush, CIA/FBI).

It should not be up to some external entity to bring legal action against the previous administration when the current AG has already acknowledged that water boarding is torture and torture is illegal. If an illegal act has been committed, the AG has an obligation to prosecute.

That's the gist of the problem NOW! Its not the AG's purview to decide what's legal or illegal, its up to jurists who interpret the policy based on the Constitution, not political expediency.

Too many people have the short view. We already know much of the courts are packed with conservative justices who purportedly are "strict constructionists" of the law. Well, if this is the case, will they undermine the conservative judicial ethos in order to nakedly cover what the language of the Constitution explicitly denies governmental agents? Won't this, as others mentioned above, undermine much of what the conservatives have said they stand for and believe in as it regards limiting the powers of the federal government?

I see the natural pace and progression of this issue to be a continuing reminder to all of the difference between competing philosophies, namely standing by and upholding the law even for those who deny others these same basic rights. Whether it involves courts or just the court of public opinion, the Bush Administration and its members who rationalized and institutionalized fear and abusive tactics will be held accountable as they are right now by us and the majority waking to find the embarassing legacy they've left for the world to see.

the Bush Administration and its members who rationalized and institutionalized fear and abusive tactics will be held accountable as they are right now by us and the majority waking to find the embarassing legacy they've left for the world to see.

That's not enough of a deterrent to prevent future illegal acts/actors. Suppose we applied the same reasoning to bank robbers, car thieves, rapists? Do you think the sentiment of bloggers (and non bloggers for that matter) would act as a deterrent? No. The process should be allowed to move forward. We have laws for a reason; to deter crime and to provide the rationale for the applicationn of punishment when a crime has been committed. For laws to work, we must be held to the same standard.

Its not the AG's purview to decide what's legal or illegal, its up to jurists who interpret the policy based on the Constitution, not political expediency.

Of course it is! They do it day in and day out throughout the country. It is up to the judge and the jury to determine confirm whether or not the prosecutor is correct. By not proceeding with the prosecution, the AG has appointed himself the judge and jury.

"It would be unfair to prosecute dedicated men and women working to protect America for conduct that was sanctioned in advance by the Justice Department," Holder said.

I agree.

Obama saying in a statement, "Nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

In releasing the documents, the most comprehensive accounting yet of interrogation methods, Obama said he wanted to move beyond "a dark and painful chapter in our history."


I agree.

"Nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

Not true. The thing to be gained is the prevention of future illegal acts. Apparently the POTUS doesn't believe in deterrence?

No laws were broken. EXECUTE OLBERMAN. PUT THIS BITCH DOWN.

"Nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."



Especially considering that the "past" may lead us in to the Clinton years...

Lots of rants on here today... I have a question or two....

(A. Can anyone tell me here if water boarding was used on all us detainees or some important high level Al-Qaeda detainees?

(B. Can anyone here tell me how we found out about the nuclear material being sold in Eastern Europe last week. That would be the material that was recovered in enough quantity to render most of down town to mid town NYC useless and uninhabitable for the next hundred years if detonated in a single dirty bomb.

(C. Does anyone here honestly believe that Water boarding or slapping a prisoner actually brings down to the level of the terrorists?

(D. Has anyone here ever watched one of the many Al-Qaida videos of an American prisoner or another westerner being slowly beheaded while wide awake with his hands tied behind his back? And after watching one of those are you actually going to tell us that water boarding is in the same ball park or even on the same planet as that? If you can then there is something wrong with you.

Bush is no longer in office folks I think Obama was an IDIOT for publishing those papers. Though the law suite with the ACLU made that inevitable. Move on.

Obama was an IDIOT for publishing those papers

That is because you are a Teabagging Bush Lover that is afraid for your leader's reputation.

The only thing these papers are going to do is put another dark chapter in the book that was the Bush Years.

They will be embarrassing to Bush. Nothing more.

obama has after readin all info at this come to the conclusion he might have to do the same---in truth we(the general public)don't know what was gained from these methods-what if plans for acts against us have been foiled but government does not want the enemy to know who is talkin bout what
jasman

Jasmin,
You get my respect. You are the first consistant poster I have seen who was partisan before Jan 20th. What you held true under Bush, you are holding true under Obama. Thank you for restoring some of my faith.

rawstory.com


hmm.

The shit-heaps and turb-burglars who call themselves 'conservatives' will still somehow find a reason to attack President Obama regarding this. It's all they have left.

OH NO! 8 YEARS OF BSNBC AND NO ONE.....NO ONE IS GOING TO JAIL!!!

Species 8472: If its true, it sounds like it worked. So maybe this torture actually yields results? Literature typically says no.

Slate sums up an interestin gNYT article (at www.nytimes.com) about the treatment of Abu Zubaydah:

An already-cooperative al-Qaida prisoner, initially believed to be a senior leader but later determined to be merely a personnel clerk, was water-boarded, slammed against walls, confined in boxes, and deprived of food, despite his captors' belief that he knew nothing of further value, reports the NYT. An official involved in the interrogation said the treatment, carried out on direct orders from CIA headquarters, plunged the prisoner into the "depths of human misery and degradation" but produced no new breakthroughs. "He pleaded for his life," the official said. "But he gave up no new information. He had no more information to give."
www.slate.com

kanrei

was that a compiment or an insult-most of us can only guess whats in the whole report and obama ain't no fool
jasman

FedUpWithPols:

You are everything wrong with the USA. Wow, you are an idiot scumbagfuckhead...WOW. You really suck teabaggs. If you were in front of me right now, I would tear your little-brained head off. Go back to TexAss and leave the USA - for good! You are the enemy of the States...

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