Really? They don't have a goddammed phone to call the police themselves?

Please.

Just another case of the dumbing down of society.

726,
They usually don't get cell phone reception in the subway tunnels and I've only gotten a signal VERY rarely on the platform. This was indeed a cruel judicial decision. I think if I was the train conductor I'd have at least kept the train at the station so I or passengers could take a photo of th perp. I feel horribly for this woman.

Cold. It is unbelievably sd that society is devolving into this state.

What is sad that while the MTA employee had no legal obligation to assist, he felt no moral obligation to do so.

The only thing government employees are obligated to do is take your money and put it in their pocket.

Depending on what color the perp and the victim were, I may have attempted to stop it.

....sounds like a good place to stay away from.....

Depending on what color the perp and the victim were, I may have attempted to stop it.

#6 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE

OK, the perp is purple and the victim is vermillion, Would you attempt to stop it now?

Purple is close to black, so yes, I'd stop it.

If people don't want to help, they shouldn't have to, but karma is a mother-fucker.

If these turds can sleep at night knowing they did nothing while a woman was being rapes, good for them, but when it's their mother or wife and nobody helps, let's see how they feel.

She's pissed because she wanted a "hero" to rescue her and end up in the cemetary.

Horrible.

But the judge was right.

The workers may be heartless pussies but that's not a crime.

Ask Chair. He knows.

She's pissed because she wanted a "hero" to rescue her and end up in the cemetary.

Grow a pair of balls. You're a pathetic excuse for a man, if you are male. If you are female, you're possibly insane enough to relate to Ann Coulter.

Cold. It is unbelievably sd that society is devolving into this state.

Devolving?
Look outside the window, there's a woman being grabbed
They've dragged her to the bushes and now she's being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But Monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow the game
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

On March 13, 1964, a 28 year old New York City woman gained world-wide recognition for her role in an event which even today is remembered by people everywhere, creating a legacy still held up as an example of American values, or lack thereof. There can be no doubt, however, that Kitty Genovese would have given all her worldly possessions to have avoided the global "fame" acquired on that Friday the 13th that gave to her the ultimate horror associated with this symbol of bad luck.

The victim was probably a peace advocate so she got what she deserved. Should have been killed, too.

Nanc

Even though 47,000 New York City residents have been murdered since, hers remains the most tragic because 38 "citizens" awakened by her cries for help watched as she was assaulted not once, but three times over a half hour period. Not only did they fail to come to her aid, they also failed to call the police for help. Vincent Mosely, her assailant, stabbed her several times, then left, only to return a few minutes later to cut her up a little more.

Depending on what color the perp and the victim were, I may have attempted to stop it.

#6 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-09 09:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

???

So, if Oscar the Grouch was raping Elmo, would that be enough for you to stop it? Ya know, Green on Red crime and all....

Grow a pair of balls.

#13 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-04-09 03:50 PM | Reply

What an odd response to that post.

Go get your husband dinner, woman.

While the judge's ruling may be right on the law, as others have said, these transit workers were a bunch of lazy, cowardly, wastes of human mass. How a the conductor could pull up in a train, see a women being raped, and just press a button and drive off is unbelievable to me.

You just know somebody on the train caught part of it on their cell phone camera.

Agreed Joe.

I would have at least thrown a shoe at the guy............

I haven't read all the way up the thread, but surely there's been a car antenna comment by now.

I guess none of us really know what we'd do in any given situation like this. We only know what we hope we'd do. I sure hope I'd have the courage to try and help under the circumstances.

I guess none of us really know what we'd do in any given situation like this.

I do

In 1977 I was stationed at the shipyards in Philadelphia. A friend and I had just come back from seeing the movie 'Coma'. We were riding the escalator out of the subway to the street when we heard screaming. We turned to see two guys mugging a woman who was on the ground. We ran up the escalator and back down the other one to her. The muggers saw us coming and fled, but not before they got her purse and savagely tore her watch off.

We never confronted them, but we were ready to.

It doesn't sound like the guy had a weapon. While none of the bystanders could have known that, they could have at least approached and seen if he drew one. I'd take a solid ass-whipping if it gave the girl time to get away.

I do

#23 | Posted by goatman

Of course.

Of course./i>

I'm glad you agree. We seldom do. *grin*

Did they say how she was dressed? For all we know, she could have been asking for it.

I'd take a solid ass-whipping if it gave the girl time to get away.

#24 | Posted by JOE

That's what she told us too!

I'd take a solid ass-whipping if it gave the girl time to get away.

#24 | Posted by JOE

No you wouldn't, you're a wanna be lawyer, by definition your a sissy with a pen.

We never confronted them, but we were ready to.

#23 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-09 04:18 PM

I'm sure you had your purse all ready to swing at the hooligans.

Joe Pesci did a lot with a pen. Shouldn't you be reading prisonplanet?

#27, Now you're just begging for a vacation. But you're right, I mean if she was hot and had on tight jeans and a t-shirt with no bra.....well...wadda ya expect?

I drive by blacks and yell racial slurs.

But you're right, I mean if she was hot and had on tight jeans and a t-shirt with no bra.....well...wadda ya expect?

#32 | Posted by briwo at 2009-04-09 05:01 PM | Reply

That's what I'm sayin'. Sometimes "no" means "yes"...

I know, that is pretty fun to do.

and sometimes it means "OH GOD YEESSSS!"

I am only flagging Briwo's posts, because I think he is a liberal.

#31 | Posted by JOE

Are you comparing yourself to a fictional character now?

Makes sense to me...

I'm sure you had your purse all ready to swing at the hooligans.

No, just our fists. It sounds like men are a little different (to put it nicely) in Seattle than they are in Philadephia

And I only flagged Joe's posts becuase I think he's a closeted kitty toucher.

It sounds like men are a little different (to put it nicely) in Seattle than they are in Philadephia

#39 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-09 05:08 PM

Yeah, we don't carry purses.

Yeah, we don't carry purses.

They don't in Philadelphia either. Now you know.

And I only flagged Joe's posts becuase I think he's a closeted kitty toucher

He touches cats? That certainly deserves a flag! LOL

#37 | Posted by JOE

Let me revise:

Sissy Republican wanna be Lawyer

Two subway employees and one rape victim should be able to stop a rape. There is a limit to what the guy can do with his pants down and cock out.

Another NY Subway Story.

Mormon Missionary meets his mother at a subway station. His mother is accosted and robbed. He chases the robbers up a flight of stairs where he is stabbed through the heart and dies seconds later.

The West is the Best

Oh this is so much fun.........it would be better over beers though.

That's what I'm sayin'. Sometimes "no" means "yes"...

#34 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-09 05:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh God, please spare us "getting my dick wet 101...

It makes me a bit ill.

"I drive by blacks and yell racial slurs."

Yeah but they don't like jews either so what do they care?

"Are you comparing yourself to a fictional character now?

Makes sense to me...

#38 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-04-09 05:07 PM"

Well, they are the same height after all.

We never confronted them, but we were ready to.

That spells hero in my book.

Mormon Missionary meets his mother at a subway station. His mother is accosted and robbed. He chases the robbers up a flight of stairs where he is stabbed through the heart and dies seconds later.

I remember when reading about it when that happened. Terrible story.

This is terrible and the workers are pathetic, but no attractive 22 yr old should be alone at 2 AM on the subway. That was poor judgment on her part. Blame parents for raising their sweet little daughters to be ignorant Pollyannas.

Too bad she didn't have a car antennae.

We never confronted them, but we were ready to.

That spells hero in my book.

#50 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-04-09 05:27 PM

Oh Goatman! You are so my hero! I would have given myself up to you right there and then on the filthy subway platform!

You two get a room already.

You two get a room already.

I already have several, itsallaboutme

"""That was poor judgment on her part."""

That's right! What was she thinking! Lock the doors and cower in your basement, that's the ticket.

There's a difference between cowering in your basement and a female taking the NYC subway alone at 2AM. Only a moron wouldn't realize that.

I already have several, itsallaboutme

#55 | Posted by goatman at 2009-04-09 05:46 PM

I'll try this one more time old man.

I'm not who you or 101 Douchebag think I am.

But I'm flattered that you two tools are obsessed.

Try again, gramps.

I'm not who you or 101 Douchebag think I am

LOL And you denied being hillbillydeluxe, too, until you couldn't any longer.

Lie away, little man, lie away

Only a moron wouldn't realize that.

#57 | Posted by JOE at 2009-04-09 05:48 PM |

Only a retarded cunt wouldn't realize the exaggeration in the statement to illustrate the point that the responsibility lies with the perpetrator, not the victim, and we have a winner.

Too funny old man, try again.

While your at it get a life and an actual woman.

No, I don't mean the one who emails you the pathetically shriveled once overs that you pleasure yourself to on the "Rig".

While your at it get a life and an actual woman.

OK. I'll work on it, itsy.

How in the world a group of people could stand by and watch this happen is totally beyond me. They could have talked and agreed to rush the guy and overpower him. Anything. I know I haven't been in that position, but I don't know how I could have just stood there and done nothing with a lady screaming and struggling with a lower than dirt man attacking her. I just couldn't stand there and do nothing.

That was poor judgment on her part. Blame parents for raising their sweet little daughters to be ignorant Pollyannas.

That is the problem with liberals. They dont understand that while they have a right to be somewhere, someone else defends their right to be there. Just because this woman could be out at 2am to get a booty call from her boyfriend, that doesnt mean she should have been out at that time. She couldnt defend herself and when the chips were down, she was looking for a savior. I saw her on the todayshow. She sounds like the type of woman who would talk bad about men, calling them "pigs" but go looking for one when it benefits her. Kinda like liberals and their take or view on the world. While that man had no right to do what he did, some of the blame rests on the woman. She should not have been there that late. Her naivete contributed to this. I know you libbies wont agree with this, and you fenimists dam sure wont. You will say I am wrong and a pig. But then again, the woman still got raped and she was still looking for someone else to save her. She shouldnt have been there in the first place. Kinda like when a woman walks around in a haltertop, braless and in a short skirt and wonder why men are staring at her. She would say something like, "just because I dress like this doesnt give you the right to stare at me!

Don't you have to go to Afghanistan to get shot at, Boazopuppet?

Blow it out your ass Jerry....

Truth hurt Asshole?

I think in other parts of the country people would do something. In NYC not so likely. People there are pretty rude and self centered. Where I come from the guy would have probably gotten beaten half to death with weapons.

What, you live on an antenna farm?

"....She should not have been there that late...."

I think its not so much where/when she was. I think its sad she was not armed with the tools to defens herself agianst the rapist. Not to mention the 2 pieces of shit that didnt do shit when it was fucking happening. I am all in favor of women have concealed fire arms(and training) Me thinks that the occurance of Domestic battery, rape, and the like would drop pretty fast.

That is the problem with liberals. They dont understand that while they have a right to be somewhere, someone else defends their right to be there.

Yes, you were the subway worker...right! Typical republican military officer.

If he was not armed martial arts training may have helped. A quick gouge to the eyes with keys or grab of the adams apple is a good self defense technique. If he had a gun then your screwed. Mace may have helped too.

I carry a kubotan on my key chain. It can be a very useful weapon in close quarters

If he was not armed martial arts training may have helped. A quick gouge to the eyes with keys or grab of the adams apple is a good self defense technique. If he had a gun then your screwed. Mace may have helped too.

A simple kick to the side of the head. The temples, maybe.

The people who watched this woman being raped and did nothing should be punched in their mouths.

"If he had a gun then your screwed" unless you got one too and are a practiced shooter. Then the odds are tilted to your favor. Not by much but in a gunfight every second counts.

If no gun but just mace. Mace the scumbag to his knees then stomp the dog shit out of his temples till his chest does not move. His NEXT rape victim will thank you.

"A quick gouge to the eyes with keys or grab of the adams apple is a good self defense technique.

#73 | Posted by rastaninja at 2009-04-09 06:53 PM"

Say what you want but, New York city is not Boise Idaho. Its not even a Washington DC considering you can be killed simply by walking into the "wrong" neighborhood. And it seems everyone up there understands and accepts this situation.

You want to walk into THAT stew and play hero.

Only non-New Yorkers would attempt and its 50-50 at best if they live to tell about it.

It only makes me wonder:

What did the woman do to provoke the attack?
Remember - it takes two to tango.

Be Well.

Your honour, I rest my case.

The Kitty Genovese case like this one provided shrinks to give it a name...

The idiotic bystander effect.

So I guess you travel on the subway at your own risk--like parking your car.

Cowards.

1. Those saying this LEGAL decision is sad and evidence of a decline in society: you know nothing about the law and the policy behind it, and don't realize that if the law were to hold otherwise, that they had a legal duty to intervene on her behalf, you would end up with a bunch of decisions that you would then complain about: "But, but, but, why should he have a duty to risk his life to save that A-hole", etc.

2. Not been lurking long enough to know if 101Chairborne is being sarcastic or is actually a racist coward with some sort of "they're raping our white wimmin" fantasy. Anyone care to fill me in?

3. BOAZ: idiotic "liberals" rant. So, should we not exercise our freedom of speech because "someone else defends our right" to have it, as you've no doubt brought up over and over in a whiny little bitch voice?
Do you realize you're more in line with the Arabs/Taliban with this belief than with American principles?
Shitbag.

4. The victim is blameless. If she isn't, then you're saying it's ok for men (actually, people in general) not to control their base urges. It's not right that a woman can't safely take the subway at 2am whereas I don't think about it twice. Would you blame a guy who went to a bar and got assaulted because bars and drunks = real possibility of being assaulted?

I drive by blacks and yell racial slurs.

#33 | Posted by 101Chairpoodle

You actually leave Williamsville?

25 years of the progressive movement has made this commonplace in the U.S.

25 years of the progressive movement has made this commonplace in the U.S.

#84 | Posted by KBM

...because as we all know, there was no crime before 1984.

Yes you tool. That's what she wanted and any "man" would have sooner died than sit back and watch that happen. The fact that you would even admit you're that kind of coward is telling.

I am disgusted that men in this country can be this stupid---rape is a crime--and the old old time thought that a women can ran fast with her skirt up, then a man with his pants down, is an old stupid theory that should of been changed along time ago.
I can only hope that your daughter, wife, mother, or girl friend is ever in this poisition. but if they ever are, that there is a man or woman aound with the guts to intervine and save them. i believe most of your thoughts would be different if it was a loved one of yours.
as far as her being in a subway at 2am alone,---maybe she was coming home from work. maybe you should have more compassion for your fellow human beings. try it sometime.
i'm a dem, and twice i have saved some ones life, and i am a female. i did it with out thinking, but i did it , an very proud of it. twice i ran the person off, one i even took a knife away from one person, who was stabbing the victim.
i didn't stop to think why it was happening, i just did what every american should do.
but things have changed in this country, there is no compassion for our fellow beings. the country has delveloped a --who the hall cares---and that is wrong and not showing good values.
my husband at the time told me i had more guts then brains, but i sure felt good after saving 2 lies, try it sometime.

There are some spelling mistakes---oh well, i am mad, and when i am mad i just type and sometimes hit the wrong keys, but it doesn't change how i feel---wake up people---we have to care for our fellow citizens.

Welcome to decadence, Terry.

In Europe, they behead Dutch film-makers, torch Peugeots in Parisian suburbs, and place the corpses of their grandmothers in cold storage--lest their bothersome deaths and requisite funeral arrangements interrupt the "Holiday".

And the culture shrugs.

"Such is life"

Your culture has declined to the point whereby its electorate has managed to elect a piece of shit who feels its his duty to grovel before, and indeed emulate, the intellecty stunted and culturally suicidal public policy that created 21st century Europe.

Congratulations.

intellectually stunted, I meant.

Of course...

poor mao.

as long he fails to understand that socialism is the answer, he will continue to make a joke of himself night after night.

(*checking to see who I'm logged in under before i hit 'submit'*)

---rastaninja

I was arguing with a dipshit at work who thinks like you Jak. I want socialism. She should want it too but she is an uneducated redneck.

it is ridiculous how uneducated rednecks vote against their own self-interest.

its the governemnt's job to provide all with an equitable standard of living.

*check screenname*

--Rastaninja

WTF are you talking about Jak Se Mao?
You sound like the drunk, Xanaxed-out homeless guy Mike on 5th ave and 11th st I help out when I can find him. You're making a muslim rant on this thread? Time and a place buddy. That post made me feel intellecty stunted.

TERRY61042:
I hope you don't really mean to strike such a broad stroke with "I am disgusted that men in this country can be this stupid."
I think the responses here that express anger at attempts to blame the victim make it clear that the American male population in all its diversity does not consist of a bunch of women-hating assholes. Please try not to fire indiscriminately when going after the psychos that, no matter how much improvement the rest of society makes, will always be sick.
The other shitheads on this site (a site that I believe used to be called cruel.com, so you have to expect a certain type of participant AND their expectation of being able to haphazardly express thoughts that even they may not fully believe) are pretty much the dregs of society, so what can you expect eh?
I think it's exceptional that you saved two people - that's why we created a word for people who go above and beyond: hero. But don't get all full of it and start ranting about how society is going down the drain and there's no compassion or good values. There have always been the same number of cowards and heroes.
More importantly, every situation has its own hero. You may not see it, but you've been a coward repeatedly in your life, as well as brave where you may not have thought of it like that.

Straink- I totally agree with you, except for thing.

Cruel.com was run by the same guy,(rogers cadenhead AKA RCADE) but it was never this web address.

There have always been the same number of cowards and heroes.

Pretty much. The bystander effect has been around as long as people have.

WTF are you talking about Jak Se Mao?

I'm talking about the inevitable state of decay that ensues in a post-modern culture.

An example of a symptom of that decay would be when able-bodied, male government workers stand about and watch a citizen get raped while doing nothing about it.

Other examples include the more generalized, aforementioned nihilistic bullshit in the more "advanced" countries of western Europe.

Now you go chew on that for a minute and get back to me, fuckstain. Okay?

I'll get back to you in the morning.

This fuckstain doesn't sleep while there remain taints (meaning both the one between your balls and yourself (asshole), and the one on your soul) like you in the world.
"Inevitable state of decay that ensues in a post-modern culture"-
So you've already been to the future and come back Michael J. Fox? Exactly how many and which post-MODERN cultures have you witnessed declining? Dumbass terms/categories like that place you decidedly in the pre-post-modern era. Cracked your head trying to climb up the slippery ivory tower?
I can show you so many goddamn examples of "able-bodied, male government workers [standing] about and [watching] a citizen get raped while doing nothing about it" from pre-New-World English history (and if required to, from every other civilization and time period with records), laid out fact by fact in legal decisions, that it would make you slap yourself for being so stupid.
What kind of retard-version of history do you subscribe to? Shit was rainbow-colored back then, and people pissed micro-brews?

Do you actually know what nihilistic means?
You're a fucking idiot.

Purple is close to black, so yes, I'd stop it.
#9 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-04-09 09:58 AM

RCADE - Don't you think this poster is consistently going further over the line than I've ever dared?

Just putting it into perspective.

You people are the worse sort of chickenhawks.

Fresno not everyone is a coward. People die all the time trying to save another's life.

I agree and thats what im talking about. Most of these "heroes" probably could not identify the business end of a bayonet.

This is terrible and the workers are pathetic, but no attractive 22 yr old should be alone at 2 AM on the subway. -- #52 | Posted by blablablah

If it was the N/R, she could have been waiting since 10p.

(1) Attractive is irrelevant.

(2) 2 am isn't that late in NY, and there are any number of subway stations that are just as deserted during the day. You can't live there and use mass transit (which most people have to do, b/c it's too expensive -- and often too slow -- to drive and park or take a cab) without getting used to standing alone at a subway station.

(3) Did you read the story? She wasn't in a deserted station -- there were two transit workers there. They did nothing.

Just another case of the pussification of american society! We need to grow a fuckin set of balls and stand up when we se people being wronged, not live in fea of if I intervene I might get hurt. Personally, I can't think of a better cause to give e life over than saving a woman/child!

LM

Say what you want but, New York city is not Boise Idaho. Its not even a Washington DC considering you can be killed simply by walking into the "wrong" neighborhood.... --#78 | Posted by fresno500

I take it you've never been there. Similar misinformation from my Mom was easily deflected by a NYT article noting the crime rate was about the same as in the small college town I had lived in before.

In fact, I felt much safer there -- and had less problem with street crime -- than I have in either of the college towns I've lived in. It doesn't get dark at night (city lights), and there are a lot of people around.

"This is terrible and the workers are pathetic, but no attractive 22 yr old should be alone at 2 AM on the subway. That was poor judgment on her part. Blame parents for raising their sweet little daughters to be ignorant Pollyannas"

#52 | Posted by blablablah

That is the only post here concerning the thing which most would take away to be the question at hand. It is foolish & risky & yet sometimes you can't help it, do what you gotta do to get where you gotta be. There is this idea in the big cities about not talking to the 5.0 or pigs or whatever ghetto slang you use for cops & people breed it into their children often at the cost of their humanity in helping someone in need or their own communitities by not turning cooperating in drug investigations and such.

When it's their daughter or mother or sister or wife or girlfriend or neice or grandmother, rest assured their opinions on intervention will change significantly.

"There is this idea in the big cities"

Plenty in small towns too BTW. Cops often deserve it for their actions but good cops get caught up in it also to the detriment of all, cops & citizens.

There is this idea in the big cities about not talking to the 5.0 or pigs or whatever ghetto slang you use for cops... -- #106 | Posted by HATEBIGGOV

Where do you get this crap? Do you really imagine NYC as one big ghetto?

She was an NYU grad student on the Q-train, which runs through some of the wealthiest areas of Manhattan and Brooklyn (where she was headed). The subway workers DID call the cops. They didn't do things like use the intercom system to try to scare the guy into running off.

"#82 | Posted by Straink at 2009-04-09 08:09 PM | Reply | Flag: Won't Be Here Long

"This fuckstain doesn't sleep while there remain taints (meaning both the one between your balls and yourself (asshole), and the one on your soul) like you in the world.

#98 | Posted by Straink at 2009-04-10 04:35 AM"

Jak Me Nao? Balls? Surely you jest!

The guy in the booth is such a coward. Seriously, I'm not a fighter, but if I see a woman being assaulted/raped I'm gonna flip the f*ck out and do whatever I can to help her.

I wonder how much guilt he feels...

The guy in the booth is such a coward. Seriously, I'm not a fighter, but if I see a woman being assaulted/raped I'm gonna flip the f*ck out and do whatever I can to help her. I wonder how much guilt he feels...

He probably feels like total shit! and I know this is a stretch and I'm sure I'll get reamed for it...
Maybe the worker had a family that he supports and needed to come home to... It's not always whether you are scared or not... sometimes it's about those that depend on you and what would happen if you got hurt or killed... not saying I agree with their actions, just another dimension to think about...

You can't blame the workers. I'm sure that rape prevention was not in the union's job description.

BTW, I have witnessed an assault in progress more than once, and I intervened.

It had nothing to do with my job, my other responsibilities, or my personal concerns (including personal safety). The only thing that mattered was right-and-wrong.

And I was the only person there who could make a difference.

Good thread to post on during Easter. I am not so timid and fearful about my life that I would allow someone else to die, or be seriously hurt.

Christ died for me, and if Christ asks me to die for someone else I will do so. No hesitation.

Whoa whoa whoa, buddy. If you're not crucifying yourself/stigmatazimating yourself, well then you're really not keeping it real with J.C.

Christ died for me, and if Christ asks me to die for someone else I will do so. No hesitation.

#114 | Posted by vernon at 2009-04-11 06:24 AM | Reply | Fl

Jesus is dead? And he died---for YOU? How's that make you feel.

"Christ died for me, and if Christ asks me to die for someone else I will do so. No hesitation."

Once again, I agree with you Vernon.

Twice in one day...that's gotta be a record!

"Christ died for me, and if Christ asks me to die for someone else I will do so. No hesitation."

Once again, I agree with you Vernon.

Twice in one day...that's gotta be a record!

#117 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-04-11 08:36 AM | Reply | Flag

So if those little voices in your head from Christ tell you to strap on a vest full of explosives and visit your local Temple to blow up some people Jesus doesn't like--what happens? No hesitation?

Just curious.

he died---for YOU? How's that make you feel.

#116 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-04-11 08:29 AM | Reply

It humbles me. It makes me feel grateful. It compels me to tell everyone else (even creeps like you) that there is hope for something better.

Deep in your heart you already have hope. You look at the world and know that reality is a mess.

Jesus offers a free gift to you: the good, right and beautiful reality you know should exist.

Meanwhile, if you choose the ugly, bitter and angry world, God will also honor that. He gives you free choice, but he also has consequences for the choice you make.

Vernon

If there are consequences to a choice--the choice isn't free. Just a hint at the failure of logic you embrace.

If Jesus died, he would still be dead. I've taken naps longer than Jesus was "dead". Not much of a sacrifice. Everyone dies. BFD. But Jesus lives on as the Son of God---so he didn't die.

Jesus is not the only begotten son of god--unless you don't know the meaning of the word "son" and "begotten". "Son" implies a genetic connection--did Jesus have Gods DNA, Begotten implies sexual involvement--did God have sex with Mary--or use artificial insemination to impregnate Mary? That's the only way you get "begotten".

The bible says there are lots of Sons of God---yet you must think the bible lies when it says such htings.

He gives you free choice, but he also has consequences for the choice you make.

#119 | Posted by vernon at 2009-04-11 10:13 AM

So does this mean you've given up the ladyboys, Vern?

If there are consequences to a choice--the choice isn't free.

You are getting hung up on semantics, as usual.

Consequences accompany ALL choices made. Each and every one of them.

Example: You have to get up at 6 AM for work the next morning and it is 11 PM now. You know you should go to bed now, but you really want to watch Letterman. If you choose to watch Letterman, you know you will be tired the next day - a consequence of that choice. If you choose to go to bed you miss out Letterman and a few laughs - a consequence of THAT choice.

The thing is, in either scenario you were FREE to choose as you saw fit.

PS - I used such a trivial example to reinforce a point: ALL choices, even the trivial ones, carry some form of consequence.

Back on topic....

I don't know how a person in this scenario (these 2 workers) could just sit back and do nothing as this rape takes place.

I could never live with myself if I didn't at least try and stop this.

You are getting hung up on semantics, as usual.

Consequences accompany ALL choices made. Each and every one of them.

#122 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-04-11 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag

Semantics is understanding. It is what makes language understandable, and the law tolerable.

The mistake is yours. Of course there are consequences to every action---that isn't the point. The point is that if the consequences are mandated by the entity granting the free choice, the person who is receiving the free choice isn't really getting a free choice.

Let me give you an example of a free choice and contrast it with the free choice you are talking about.

If I give you a hundred dollars and tell you that you have the free choice to spend it as you see fit, that's a free choice. Even if you spend the hundred on booze, get drunk and run over by a cab, you had a free choice from me---nothing I did caused that cab to run over you.

If I give you a hundred dollars and say you have free choice to spend it any way you like, but if you spend it on hookers and booze I'll beat your ass---that isn't a free choice. The consequences of your actions are decided by me.

Get it?

Get it?

Not bad.

You make an excellent distinction.

Let me mull this over for a bit.

"I guess none of us really know what we'd do in any given situation like this. We only know what we hope we'd do. I sure hope I'd have the courage to try and help under the circumstances."

Are you serious? You wouldn't know what to do?????

"So if those little voices in your head from Christ tell you to strap on a vest full of explosives and visit your local Temple to blow up some people Jesus doesn't like--what happens? No hesitation?"

Once again, Bob retorts in typical illogical fashion,

Vernon stated and I agreed, that we would lay our life down for another and you equate that with putting on a vest of explosives to kill others.

Unbelievable!

Vernon stated and I agreed, that we would lay our life down for another and you equate that with putting on a vest of explosives to kill others.

Unbelievable!

#127 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-04-11 03:20 PM | Reply | Flag

What is unbelievable is how you lie through your teeth and expect other people to believe it. You didn't say you would lay down your life for another. You said Christ talked to you, and if He did, you would lay down your life for someone else.

"Christ died for me, and if Christ asks me to die for someone else I will do so. No hesitation."

Once again, I agree with you Vernon.

Twice in one day...that's gotta be a record!

#117 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-04-11 08:36 AM | Reply | Flag

When Christ asks you to die for someone else, and you say you would do it---No hesitation--the question should be asked, if Christ asks you to blow yourself up, and take others with you--would you do it--No hesitation?

You think Christ talks to you. Sounds whacky--mental. Maybe that's why you lie through your teeth so easily--you think Christ is telling you to lie.

"When Christ asks you to die for someone else, and you say you would do it---No hesitation"

Laying my life down to defend another, to protect another, to save another...not strapping on bombs to KILL someone!

Good grief!!!

You can have the last word. I'm done.

Lisa

You say Christ talks to you---most people think that makes you crazy---I agree.

Vermin:
Go back and read all of the hate-filled crap you post on DR; and yet you have the nerve to proselytize on this thread. You are a perfect example of the right-wing fake-Christian hypocrite. You should be slapped, and hard.