I was going to suggest that this is the next shoe to drop. But it's not. It's like somebody blew up Foot Locker, and it's raining them. Commercial real estate, commercial paper reissuance, pensions being annihilated, matching contributions . . .

Keep selling.

As the economy tanks further, this will look like good times. These short falls have been predicted and discussed at length as much as ten and more years ago. The one in the worst condition was predicted to go belly up due to it's pension liability. I hate it when prognosticators from years ago prove correct. Yet here it is.

I did some reading on this tonight. SCARY. There are large corporations who you would think were solid and doing well but whose pensions and employee benefit plans are underfunded by more than 49%.

Many large corporations have already frozen their pension plans and their employees are not even aware of it. Even worse is that many of the articles I read who were advising people to really check out their company's pension plan stability were dated before the economic meltdown starting in September. With the stock values so low, a lot of companies are going to have a hard time coming up on time with all the millions needed to fund their currently underfunded pension plans as is required by the Pension plan law of 2006.

TICKING TIME BOMB

Here's one article saying if you planned on taking your pension in a lump sum, you'd be better off pulling your money out now since if your pension plan is "frozen" your company isn't contributing any more money to it anyway and why chance your company's pension plan possibly declaring bankruptcy as a number of them have done and will be doing.

Not to bum people out, but you need to check NOW about the status of your company's pension and employee benefit plans and not wait until your retirement.

Be sure and read the section towards the end on this link called "Payout Provisions"

Maybe RightisRight or Taxman can give their opinion on the subject?

Posted by CalifChris

RightIsRight: "Obama singlehandedly created this mess in 5 weeks"

Taxman: "Uh, the facts don't bear you out".

-----

Hi CHRIS

Hope things are going well for you

:-)

"Not only that, the PBGC itself is now in financial trouble because of so many companies forfeiting their pension plans and then turning them over to the PBGC."

The PBGC is bankrupt. Has been for years.

I read an article a few months ago that made my blood boil. The gist is that many major corporations sucked their pension contributions dry to fund executive compensation when no one was looking.

Maybe it's time again for Rick Santelli to stand on the floor of the stock exchange while blaming the crisis on the average homeowner wanting to make money via speculation.

Hi CHRIS

Hope things are going well for you

:-)

Hi back to you too, AU : )

"many major corporations sucked their pension contributions dry to fund executive compensation when no one was looking."

The problem began when the courts decided the workers' pension monies still belonged to the company. Remember corporate raiders? They took over companies, drained their "overfunded" pensions, and sold off the business. Nowadays, companies can underfund pension plans, and either go belly up, or find a judge somewhere who will release them from their obligations. Much like some Union contracts, the only folks living up to their end of the bargain are the workers, and they'll be the ones who (if lucky) will see 40%-60% of their pensions, which is all the PBGC pays...today. The only real guarantee is tomorrow the percentages will be lower.

Here's one of the articles I mentioned in #7:

401K's were just the beginning of corporate skulduggery vis a vis pensions.

"Companies Tap Pension Plans To Fund Executive Benefits"

Who wrote the laws allowing that, and do we have enough rope to hang all of them?

Here's the article in it's entirety:

A highlight:

Keeping Quiet

Generally, only the executives are aware this is being done. Benefits consultants have advised companies to keep quiet to avoid an employee backlash. In material prepared for employers, Robert Schmidt, a consulting actuary with Milliman Inc., said that to "minimize this problem" of employee relations, companies should draw up a memo describing the transfer of supplemental executive benefits to the pension plan and give it "only to employees who are eligible (executives)"

I read an article a few months ago that made my blood boil. The gist is that many major corporations sucked their pension contributions dry to fund executive compensation when no one was looking.

You're exactly right, AU. It makes my blood boil too whenever I hear these corporations whining these last few years that their retirees' pension plans are now breaking the company financially -- the SAME retirees who helped build the company in the first place!

But what REALLY happened was when it wasn't required by law (until the Pension Protection Act of 2006) for these corporations to fully fund their pension plans they intentionally underfunded them and used the money instead for obscene bonuses for their CEOs. Now when the money they should have been putting in their pension plan all along has come due, they blame the poor guy who's retiring for their money woes.

Another thing which is causing a lot of these pension plans to now go belly up or be severely underfunded is due to many pension plan administrators investing their corporation's pension plan money in many of the same stocks which today have lost so much of their value. The pension plans are in the same boat as the rest of the people who lost all their money in the DOW and on Wall Street.

I'm hoping for the best, but I'm afraid when these companies' pension plans have to deal with the billions they've lost in the stock market a lot of retirees (and soon to be retirees) are going to get hurt at a time when they thought they'd have a half-way decent retirement.

Just one repost of the entire article in case someone clicks the first link (which requires a subscription):

Full Article:

CHRIS

Read that article. What these corporations have done is a real piece of work.

Another highlight:

Royal & SunAlliance, an insurer, sold a division and laid off its 228 employees in 1999. Just before doing so, it amended the division's pension plan to award larger benefits to eight departing officers and directors. One human-resources executive got an additional $5,270 a month for life.

But to do this and still pass the IRS's nondiscrimination tests, the company needed to give tiny pension increases to 100 lower-level workers, said the company's benefits consultant, PricewaterhouseCoopers. One got an increase of $1.92 a month.

Joseph Gromala, a middle manager who stood to get $8.87 more a month at age 65, wrote to the company seeking details about higher sums other people were receiving. A lawyer wrote back saying the company didn't have to show him the relevant pension-plan amendment.

"A lawyer wrote back saying the company didn't have to show him the relevant pension-plan amendment."

Methinks these folks never studied the French Revolution.

Benefits consultants have advised companies to keep quiet to avoid an employee backlash.

Exactly why I said in my post above to NOT ask your employer about the status of your pension plan. Your employer will-- in the words of BuffaloBob -- "tell you NUTZING!" lol

That's why you need to go to a private certified public accountant or some tax guy, pay for an hour of the guy's time, and have him tell you -- in writing -- what he finds after he checks forms your company's filed with the IRS and he can also request a full copy of your company's pension plan -- much more complete than what an employee usually receives from their employer. You do have a right as an employee to see the full and complete pension plan.

Well worth the $100 bucks or so you'd pay for an hour to get advice from an accountant. If all is fine -- then great, you're mind is relieved. If not, then maybe you can save yourself future financial loss by taking a lump sum out now or something. As I said, it's not my field, but I do know from experience employers will not tell you everything that's going on with your pension plan until they have to.

Adios.

"in the words of BuffaloBob -- "tell you NUTZING!"

Did he play Sgt. Shultz on Hogan's Heroes? LOL

DanforthUnity is having a conversation with himself.

That's why you need to go to a private certified public accountant or some tax guy, pay for an hour of the guy's time, and have him tell you -- in writing -- what he finds after he checks forms your company's filed with the IRS and he can also request a full copy of your company's pension plan -- much more complete than what an employee usually receives from their employer. You do have a right as an employee to see the full and complete pension plan.

Well worth the $100 bucks or so you'd pay for an hour to get advice from an accountant. If all is fine -- then great, you're mind is relieved.
* * * * *

Or you can do it yourself. Go to Freeerisa.com, register for free, login, and you can pull up any 401k or pension in the country. The problem you'll find, just as your CPA will who--if he's working on it for a hundred dollars isn't very good to begin with--is that the tax filings are old. There are no updated documents on pensions' values because markets have fallen so fast, and there's no market for a lot of the securities for which pensions have income-producing assets.

They're coming for your 401k's next.
Gold and silver in your possession is a damn good investment. Even if gold is about 900 now. Just think, if people would have listened to Alex Jones and Bob Chapman a year ago and bought, you would have 100% return on your investment right now. I bought a few Danish gold coins last year, but the mark up on Danish gold is to high so the price has only gone up a little bit on them. But I still have them if I become broke, and need money.

Old people, once retired, are no longer useful contributors to society. They need to be chucked into giant blenders and turned into slurry. The resources required to keep elderly alive should be diverted to more useful and productive activities.

"Old people, once retired, are no longer useful contributors to society. They need to be chucked into giant blenders and turned into slurry. The resources required to keep elderly alive should be diverted to more useful and productive activities."

Tim has a buddy!!

Don't worry. We still have room on a few ice flows for this spring's culling of the old...for a few extra $, we can dress your old folks as fuzzy little seal suits.

You guys can whine about these 3 executives getting xxx and those getting yyyy...but even if they did not give it to them it does not really matter.

The fundamental problem is the market is tanking...and with it goes the underlying support for the whole US economic system.

The financial sector is "voting with its feet" on the Obama raise taxes over spend bills.....they are selling out causing massive downward pressure and the result is a snowball.

The fact is until the market stabilizes everyone pension, 401k plan and JOBS are in jeopardy.

So who ever it was that posted here saying the market is not related to the economy should think again. Until this country wakes up and realizes we cannot pay for every illegal, every person that will not get off their ass, every person who speculated in the housing boom then we will see this death sprial continue. Obama was the wrong person at the wrong time.

"The fact is until the market stabilizes everyone pension, 401k plan and JOBS are in jeopardy."

Which is why some people advocate short sales. To take away the possibility of stability.

The financial sector is "voting with its feet" on the Obama raise taxes over spend bills.....

LOL... The Right is getting really desperate. Hannity still calls the period in 2000 - 2001 the "Clinton-Gore Recession". Your pathetic attempts to blame Obama for the current situation is completely illogical. The DJIA's slide started long before Obama became POTUS.

Soylent Green.
I don't who these lucky employees are that get pensions, but if they deserve them and the money is gone robbed by executives, there has to be some way of getting the money back.....soon you're going to see alot of the executives "executed" by the disgruntled pensioners they have stolen from.

Hannity still calls the period in 2000 - 2001 the "Clinton-Gore Recession". Your pathetic attempts to blame Obama for the current situation is completely illogical. The DJIA's slide started long before Obama became POTUS.

* * * *

Clinton was president through the whole of 2000. And you're right--the selling REALLY started on these markets just as Obama's star started to rise. Just because it was correlative, does that imply a cause-effect relationship?

I dunno. Don't even care. I do know that markets look forward 9 months, and what they're seeing out of Washington is giving them the heebie-jeebies.

I did cover some short positions today, after a 45% rise in some of them in just three weeks. No need to get greedy, you know.

B

Knows - What was a basic liquidity problem brought on by the Community Act forcing banks to change leading policy - and Freddy and Fannie backing that up by purchasing these loans - has now escalated into a full market collapes.

If Obama had done NOTHING but purchase the toxic assets that the TARP should have done - we would be stable and emerging now.

But by doing things that everyone knows will lead to a lengthing of the resession - this has caused the base to erode.

You can bury your head in the sand and think that what he has done has had no negative impact...but you are wrong and your kind will take the US to the bottom with you.

Until this country wakes up and realizes we cannot pay for every illegal, every person that will not get off their ass, every person who speculated in the housing boom then we will see this death sprial continue. Obama was the wrong person at the wrong time.

#29 | Posted by foshaffer

What does this statement have to do with either:

Tax and Spend (pay as you go) democrats

Borrow and Spend (ever increasing debt) republicans

and the markets?

It tells me that the market wants us in debt. With debt you are tied to the market, with payments you are free to choose your base.

Commercial real estate is next... Got friends in the banking business, commercial vacancies are skyrocketing, and defaults are coming in droves. Get ready for another huge adjustment...

For a rough idea of how low this collapse can go before the dust settles, consider what prices would we did not have 100 years of inflation. That would be about 1/20 of todays prices. I can't say how long it would take, but there is no chance of a recovery until all this massive debt is liquidated. Because dollars are debt notes, the dollar would be liquidated too.

All brought to you by your friends in Washington and endorsed by millions of foolish voters.

All my pensions are Federal so they can just print up some more money. I feel like the guy who was sent back home from the 300 before the last battle. I'll remember all you guys on the DR when this is over and...uh...I'll take care of all your women, don't worry.

Fried Walrus Thom

I think the markets have caught on to Washington's chronic lying and incompetence. They change the rules from day to day, creating an atmoshere of uncertainty. These bailouts are obviously a desperated attempt mask their willful blindness, cronyism and malfeasance.

Proold - Huh?

Tax and Spend (pay as you go) democrats? When you are TRIPPLING the DEBT that is not Pay as you go! The major issue here is Taxes and assumed profitablity.

The Markets (meaning the stock market) really doesn't care about debt as long as: 1) it is realitively low compared to GNP (this budget breaks that rule) 2)There is a reasonable assumption that the interest expenditure will not significantly impact the US operational budget **( This budget breaks that rule) 3)There is a good chance that it could be repaid. (This budget breaks that rule)

The value of a stock is based upon future earnings. The issue here is that the market cannot get a fix on what the future earnings of a company will be because of the massive (negative) changes in: 1) Increases in Taxes (which directly impacts profitablity) 2) what is deductable (same as above) 3) What markets the Government may change the playing rules in (Financial sector, Health Care, Autos, Mining, Energy)

It is an old addage that "Markets hate the unknown" and with Obama and this congress the unknowns keep growing and growing.

"With debt you are tied to the market, with payments you are free to choose your base."

I really do not understand that sentence.

All my pensions are Federal so they can just print up some more money. I feel like the guy who was sent back home from the 300 before the last battle.

I wouldn't feel too comfortable about depending on the world's greatest debtor and spender. No government has done this without going bankrupt.

The Markets (meaning the stock market) really doesn't care about debt as long as: 1) it is realitively low compared to GNP (this budget breaks that rule)

The unfunded SS and Medicare debt is upwards of $70 trillion. That's about five times GNP. There is no chance Washington can sustain those debt loads indefinately.

They change the rules from day to day, creating an atmoshere of uncertainty.

#40 | Posted by Ray

Bingo!

Much of the criticism levied at Wall Street is one of short-term strategy. On its face, that is a fair criticism. However, how can Wall Street possibly plan long-term when the government so quickly changes the rules depending on which party is in power? It makes no sense whatsoever. Personally, the only way Wall Street will ever be able to invest and strategize on a long-term basis is if government mostly removes itself from control over the economy. Yes, such a tack would have some negative tradeoffs; but to solely blame Wall Street for the current mess given what they are trying to cope with is just stupid.

Ray,

The unfunded SS and Medicare debt is upwards of $70 trillion. That's about five times GNP. There is no chance Washington can sustain those debt loads indefinately.

That's the elephant in-the-room.

I almost feel as if Washington should just declare a national bankruptcy and get it over with.

IMO the next bubble to burst is the national debt bubble. I can't fathom how this shit can continue unabated.

That's easy jeff, we will be 'saved' by obama's second stimulus package!!

"DANCING THE RECESSION AWAY: CONGA LINES, PARTIES, COCKTAILS AT OBAMA WHITE HOUSE...

Of course what's completely unmentioned are fed, state, and local pensions and healthcare costs. Why shouldn't they be allowed to boost salaries in the worker's last 3 yrs of older workers, so they get higher retirement paychecks???

I know of a local police dept, 11 full time employees, 2 are lieutenants, one captain! They LOVE 70,000 dollar life time pensions with cola and HC!!!! It's their right after all they are entitled to it!!!!

If what I have read is true then many of the largest corporations are in fact right now bankrupt and they know it. They will take in what is possible until discovered and the full truth is revealed. At that time the executives will all plead innocence and that they knew nothing. Enron has apparently got a lot of neighbors in the bankruptcy game. It only gets worse from there. What effect will these failings have on a rocky economy?

Jeff

If SS and Medicare is the elephant, the OTC derivative market is the Godzilla. Those numbers are upwards of a quadrillion dollars. That's 1,000 trillion. AIG was a major player as well as the other major Wall Street firms.

This is what Washington is so desperately trying to hide.

The other more common fix is to just vaporize the pension fund. Companies in this country do it every day. Judges say, this is terrible, but legal. Next it will be SS and Medicare.

"the only way Wall Street will ever be able to invest and strategize on a long-term basis is if government mostly removes itself from control over the economy."

Makes little sense. If someone is in control, you can easily get a feel for what can happen. In the standard chaotic free market, you have much less chance of guessing right.

The other more common fix is to just vaporize the pension fund. Companies in this country do it every day. Judges say, this is terrible, but legal. Next it will be SS and Medicare.

#50 | Posted by nutcase at 2009-03-02 06:02 PM

You're right about pension plans going belly up next. These corporations will have to make good on their underfunded pension plans next month and many don't have the millions it will cost them to do it. Many people think their pension plans have to be guaranteed by their employer. Surprise! If you're not with a union, your private employer's lawyers can just get your company's entire pension obligations dismissed in court. Your employer is not obligated to keep any pension promises made to you.

But you won't see SS or Medicare go under. Without SS checks millions of people would literally be thrown out of their homes and destitute and the American public won't stand for seeing the 85 year olds in our population living on the curb. Besides, SS is NOT an company's stock investment plan, nor a 401k, or other type of pension plan. SS was always meant only as a SAVINGS plan and never meant to be at the mercy of the stock market.

Of course, Bush tried twice while President to get his hands on all the SS money and turn it over to his Wall Street boys when Bush went on his traveling road show to try and sell his privatizing SS scheme. Fortunately, the American public just about threatened to tar and feather his ass if he tried it so the GOP told him to back off.

Can you imagine what condition SS and Medicare funds would be in today if Bush had gotten his way wanting to privatize SS and Medicare and had been able to put all that money in the stock market. There is a God afterall. At least He didn't let Bush and the Republicans get their hands on SS and Medicare while they were in power.

Question --

If a large a company has only around 49% of their pension plan currently funded, should that be a concern for their employees? With today's economy, would an employer instead try to have all their pension obligations eliminated in court or turned over to the PBGC when it comes time to make up their pension shortfall with the 2006 Pension Protection Act now coming due?

I heard company pension plans would be okay if they were currently funded up to 80% of their pension plans owed but what if they are 50% or under? Is that a sign of trouble ahead?

Calif - Yes that is a major issue.

The government (or Union) can force the company to fund to 80+% of the liability - this means that the company may have to lay off enough workers to reduced its forecasted debit, or take current capital destined for operations (or developments) and move them into the pension. OR BOTH.

So..if a company does not have enough capital on hand ..or enough cash flow..it may be forced into bankruptcy (which is exactly what should NOT happen to protect the pensions) but that is the policy.

The other way is to modify the current pension scheme to reduce the long term liability by either reducing the pension benefits OR by raising the amount of money that the employee must contribute Or changing the terms

"The other way is to modify the current pension scheme to reduce the long term liability by either reducing the pension benefits OR by raising the amount of money that the employee must contribute Or changing the terms"

You're forgetting the most sensible way of all:

Fund the pension plans as you go, instead of choosing higher pay & bonuses for management.

DANFORTH

It's their right after all they are entitled to it!!!!

I believe the benefits were negotiated with local governments and we all know the righty badge bunny politicians give the cops everything they want.

Looting and pillaging pension funds is the free market and capitalism at its finest. American workers are evil and nobody in Viet Nam expects a pension, so they shouldn't either.

The Right

But you won't see SS or Medicare go under. Without SS checks millions of people would literally be thrown out of their homes and destitute and the American public won't stand for seeing the 85 year olds in our population living on the curb.

Not yet, but their demise is inevitable. The public won't stand for the mass unemployment that is building up this year either, but they can't stop it. I see it going well over Depression levels.

The thinking in the circles I read is that Washington will default by hyperinflation, i.e. destroy the dollar. Other countries will be doing it too.

But you won't see SS or Medicare go under.

I agree.

The day they try it is the day this country's government will go through a revolution and the corrupt bandits get killed and our government changes.

Too many generations have contributed to this and the government knows it is their life line of existance.

Pensions are the easiest things for the corporate world to steal.

Just wait out the case because the people will die before it comes to head.

SS is a generation thing, it will never ever die because of each generations contribution.

Here is a conspiracy theory:

Assume the government knows that the baby boomers are about ready to start collecting their Social Security benefits. Many (but not all) realized that a 401K extra security blanket was needed to pay for new cars and vacations plus to make things meet while they live another 20 to 30 years in retirement. Well the government cannot afford the hit on the government coffers and would rather cause everyone's 401K to tank by having Bush and now Obama scream "FIRE". Bam, down goes everyone's 401K and they have to work another 5 10 years to bring it back up to its previous value. This saves the Social Security system for another 5 - 10 years plus the added benefit that many of the people which want to retire die before they can. Or they only live another decade when they do instead of the 20 years they were planning on. At the same time government workers after 20 years of service are sitting back collecting their retirement benefits from the taxpayer.

$$$WAR

"But you won't see SS or Medicare go under.

- CalifChris"

I agree.

The day they try it is the day this country's government will go through a revolution and the corrupt bandits get killed and our government changes.

Too many generations have contributed to this and the government knows it is their life line of existance.

#60 | Posted by moneywar

I'm glad you see it the same way. People will be furious when many who are employees might soon see their pension plans take a dive which I'm afraid may be sooner rather than later with the pension funds now required to be fully funded to comply with the Pension Protection Act kicking in.

But it's another thing altogether to kick the elderly and disabled in your population out on the streets. That's when you'll see a revolution in this country. And if there ever was a time when SS and Medicare needed to be left in place it's now when the 401k and pension plans are being wiped out. Although many hadn't planned it that way, SS and Medicare might soon be some people's ONLY source of income if their defined benefit plans and other pension plans are eliminated by their employer.

It's unnerving how many people do not have a clue how shaky their company's pension plans are now. Especially with so many pension plans being funded via investments in a tanking stock market.

I get so furious sometimes when I see so many on the right on here more than willing to wipe out SS (via trying to privatize it) and constantly bitching about how much money SS and Medicare programs cost.

They sure didn't give a damn about the billions for Bush's war in Iraq or the billions never accounted for in cost plus warprofiteering contracts to big Republican donors who built nothing in Iraq but kept the money. Yet these same ones get their collective panties in wad when asked to help out some elderly man on a SS fixed income -- a guy who probably saw combat in WW II -- then it seems the Republicans are more than happy to throw him to the curb. I honestly do not understand their lack of values and compassion.

$$$WAR

Where do you stand politically? I always thought you were a Democrat or at least on the left but sometimes your posts show me differently. I'm not a Democrat (am a registered independent) and a social conservative but felt the war in Iraq was a trumped up unnecessary farce and could not stand the Bush Neocons and their unfair free trading greed and their globalism agenda.

I feel like I don't belong with any group sometimes. The left wants gun control and to wipe out our heritage and culture -- like when they try to get rid of Christmas or any sign of God and are so pc about everything. But the far right seems to care only about greed and globalism no matter who it hurts in this country. I don't feel I fit in anywhere.

Just for You Chrissy

Just for You Chrissy

"Here I am Stuck in the Middle with You"

Where have you been?

#65 | Posted by OzarkAggie

How'd you know that was one of my favorite songs, ya little devil. lol

As for where I've been -- just took a breather. Got sick of 24/7 politics and bad news everywhere I looked so didn't feel like getting into debates about all of it. Plus I was starting to feel overwhelmed getting things together to get this place ready to sell and then move. Needed to just tune out the world for a bit.

btw -- I ordered those great tour books you can get from AAA (for 4 different states) and just got them in the mail this week along with some nice maps too. AAA is great for helping with that stuff. One of the tour books is for Missouri -- thought I'd check your state out too although after seeing the weather this winter it might be too cold! Did you ever get your Davy Crocket hat yet?

Say, if you don't mind, I may ask you and some of the folks on here for suggestions in the next few weeks. I've never sold a house before and am in a little over my head on some stuff and have to do all this crap on my own.

Like this question -- I think I'm going to have to have a small area of the enclosed porch taken care of where it appears some termites have done a number on the wood windows.

I just wanted to know what I should do when I have some company come out to inspect for termites. I don't want to be ripped off by them saying there are termite places all over when I'm 99% sure they're really only in that one small area. Do you have termites in Missouri?

I'll need to have the termite inspection done and taken care of but can't do it too soon before actually selling the house otherwise the termite warranty required by the escrow company when you sell a house here wouldn't be any good anymore. Also, the termite companies I called said they would repair the window wood and replace the glass panes after getting rid of the termites but I wonder if they would charge way more than if I just hired a couple guys to take care of it? I'm sure the termite company would sublease the job out anyway and it would cost me more money. If I have to have one of those awful termite black tents over the whole house I think I'll go crazy! Then I'd have to leave my house for three days. That's why I want to be sure a termite company doesn't try to con me about having termites in places where there aren't any.

Sooooo, if you have any suggestions about how to hire a termite company and not get ripped off, catch up with me on DR whenever you get a chance in the next three weeks or so, if you don't mind. Don't feel like talking termites tonight.

I'm more than ready to get going on moving though. Once I officially put the house on the market I'm going to take off for a couple weeks and check out some places to move. I really NEED a vacation too. Can't tell you how long it's been.

Well, OzarkAggie, now aren't you glad now you asked me how I was hahaha. One question from you and you get a novella for your answer. LOL Bet ya won't do that again.

I'm going to listen to your song now.

I worked in plant path at the University of Arizona. Termites can live in the soil. There's an Extension Service in every county, and you can get information from them, probably online, and if you call and ask a few questions they might refer you, but that's not their job.

So two estimates, bonded companies.

Hears a little something. Remodeling companies sell on 3 drops, then the sales manger comes out and cuts the commission.

Now, professional question. As a litigation paralegal do you sit second at trial and assist?

Also, I thought of nice place in northern Alabama. Little town named Florence. I know people from there who moved up to St Louis. They moved back after Lonnie retired.

I don't know that you'd like Florence but there's rivers and lakes in that section, rolling hills, and warmer than Missouri. Realty reasonably priced, and not too far away from Huntsville which is fairly good sized city. NASA, DoD, lot's of military there.

Maybe you ask one of the astronauts about our astronuts. LOL

OzarkAggie --

This is my final one tonight. Had to make it in two posts.

There's an Extension Service in every county, and you can get information from them, probably online, and if you call and ask a few questions they might refer you, but that's not their job.

I'm 99% sure I know which kind -- dry wood termites. I've never actually seen them -- just the damage to the wood. But there's what looks like sawdust left on the sill which is typical of that type so I'm sure it's dry wood termites rather than subterranian termites.

So two estimates, bonded companies.

I learned how to get estimates -- and check for a contractor's license and workers' comp insurance -- when I had the new roof put on in 2005. I got a crash course in "How to Hire Contractors 101" real quick like. I'll probably get 3 estimates.

But I still need to know how I can be kinda sure they won't tell me I have termites in areas where I don't just so they can make more $$$$. Guess I'll just have to go with the company I feel is most trustworthy.

Hears a little something. Remodeling companies sell on 3 drops, then the sales manger comes out and cuts the commission.

I don't have a clue as to what you mean by "sell on 3 drops" lol

Now, professional question. As a litigation paralegal do you sit second at trial and assist?

No, I didn't. I worked for a major law firm and the only ones allowed in the area in front of the judge were the actual lawyers trying the case. Usually one of the firm's partners would be the lawyer arguing the case and a 4th or 5th year associate would be there to assist him with any documents, etc. he needed. Paralegals were allowed in the courtroom, of course, as was anyone was allowed but they'd sit in the front row seats -- not actually within the enclosed area reserved for the judge and attorneys.

I went to the actual courtroom a few times but in real life you don't have that many actual trials. 95% of the cases are settled before trial. So when a litigation case worked up to the trial level it was a big deal. I often got to go into the arbitration room and where they held depositions as the lawyers were always needing some document or another.

I suppose in smaller courts with cases handled by a some real small law firm, a paralegal might be more up front and center in assisting an attorney in the courtroom but our L.A. law firm was on two entire floors of a highrise and had a large number of associates who (for the money they were being paid!) would be the ones to actually assist the lawyer in court. You have no idea the amount of pre-trial paperwork that goes on in some of these major litigation cases. We had what's called a "war room" where nothing but boxes of documents pertaining to just one case were kept.

Remember the fire at the MGM in Vegas? We represented a huge corporation in that case (one of many defendants being represented by lawyers) and in that case they had to have a special judge just to handle that case alone and he'd have to sometimes have all the lawyers meet in a Vegas convention hall there were so many of them! That's when you get into major litigation -- mega bucks case.

(continued below)

OzarkAggie --

This is the second half of my post above and is all for tonight! I'm taking up too much bandwidth and still have a couple things to finish up around here.

Also, I thought of nice place in northern Alabama. Little town named Florence. I know people from there who moved up to St Louis. They moved back after Lonnie retired.

Hadn't thought about Alabama. My elderly neighbor's sister in law lives in (I think it's called) Gulf Shores. Well, four states for now is plenty to work on and I can always add a 5th to check out if I don't like any of the other ones. As I mentioned, I'm going to rent/lease for the first six months at least so if I'm not happy with one area or state I'm not stuck having to sell a house again.

I figure within a year after moving out of CA, I'll have grasp on where I want to live permanently. Plus, I plan on working so whichever state offers a chance at a half way okay job I'll stick around. I'm not into working in a full time legal career like I was before -- been there, done that.

It's actually kinda liberating feeling now knowing I can do whatever I feel like doing as long as it pays a few bucks. Some job part time and sort of fun. Maybe I'll work serving drinks on a riverboat on the Missouri River lol. Or is that the Mississipi River?

...NASA, DoD, lot's of military there...Maybe you ask one of the astronauts about our astronuts. LOL

Speaking of which, where is our boy Bbob tonight anyway? Maybe he's got an apt. he'll rent me on the Moon. A nice two-bedroom place equipped with a smokestack so I can have a fireplace in the living room. lol Think I'll stick with a place on planet Earth, thanks.

Well, thanks for your advice on the termite critters. Although I've never actually see any I know it's termite damage. Looks like Home Depot and OSH's hardware are going to be my second home for the new few weeks. I'll shut up now!

Speaking of which, where is our boy Bbob tonight anyway?

He did his usual "you hate America" thing for a few people and retired for the evening

I keep hearing about the need to eliminate Social Security and Medicare. What about people like me who are totally dependent on these programs to survive. Just how can a disabled person, unable to do much of anything going to live. Just what should be done, euthanasia or what? Personally I would like to live but I'm kind of picky. Tell me your great plans (that is anyone) for me cause there is more than enough concern here for my future and those like me. I am not trash to be thrown away.

I keep hearing about the need to eliminate Social Security and Medicare. What about people like me who are totally dependent on these programs to survive. Just how can a disabled person, unable to do much of anything going to live. Just what should be done, euthanasia or what? Personally I would like to live but I'm kind of picky. Tell me your great plans (that is anyone) for me cause there is more than enough concern here for my future and those like me. I am not trash to be thrown away.

What caused the double post? I hit the button once only???

KEITH

I didn't know you are disabled and I'm truly sorry to hear it.

I don't know what your living accommodations (or family situation) is like but if you're overwhelmed you might want to check with HUD for Section 8 housing. These aren't dumps in poor neighborhoods. HUD keeps these building as modern and well managed as anything else you can find.

Just a suggestion because I have helped Social Security "only" people find peace, freedom from worry and financial liberation through Section 8 housing from HUD.

"I am not trash to be thrown away."

Jeezus, that rips the heart out. Have you tried what Twinpac's talking about?

HUD provides a lot more than just decent housing, DOC.

They'll also pay your electric bill (a subsidy of up to $54.00 a month which is deducted directly from your rent), free food (canned goods) from doners, a 24 hour medical alert system, weekly bread delivery (free), pot luck dinners, pizza parties, exercise equipment . . . and the list goes on.

Hell, they'll even provide free food for your pet . . . dog food, cat food, bird food, collars, leashes, chew toys, kitty litter, etc. All free.

It's the best deal in town, really, for people on limited income.

Medicaid also has a program whereby they'll pay your Medicare premium . . . which is normally taken out of a Social Security check. It isn't even hard to qualify and they'll retro your refund back to the date of application.

Now who on Social Security couldn't use an extra $98 bucks in their checking account?

If Keith is disabled, he qualifies, even if he's under 65. I think his income has to be $26,000 or under.

KEITH . . . GET BACK TO US ON THIS. OK?

TWINPAC - Thanks for filling in some of the details. I believe Keith's explained his situation here before, and while I don't recall the details it's sufficiently debilitating that he must qualify for something decent. And thanks for pursuing this, Twinpac. Some people get hard times, full time, all the time.

DOC

I wish I knew what state Keith lived in. Also, there's lots of serious help on a HUD internet site. I'd help more if I knew more.

The Medicaid program is a state program and it can vary . . . although not by much. It takes about two months to get on the program. A lady I helped recently just got her (nearly) $200 retro refund and she cried like a baby. So did I.

I believe Keith has stated He lives in California. If memory serves Me correctly.

Larry

I think Larry's right on California. Keith's not living in a cardboard box somewhere, nd something to do with a convent or something of that sort. (No joke, but that's a bit of the story I seem to remember.)

TWINPAC - Whatever the details, Keith's situation was enough to make me stop bitching for a very long time about whatever crap was going on in my day. I hope your information will be of assistance to him.

Tax and Spend (pay as you go) democrats

#35 | Posted by Prolix247

and so I wonder how many of these people who have pensions in trouble voted for obama and I wonder how many of THEM are going to vote for him again......probably too early for any meaningfull polls as the dems have three and a half years longer to lie about the whole thing and keep talking

"WE INHERITED THIS and WE INHERITED THAT.."

KEITH . . . GET BACK TO US ON THIS. OK?

#76 | Posted by Twinpac

Thank you all but unfortunately there is more involved. You may have heard that I live below a convent? It costs me $1100.00 to live there due to medical needs. My SSD check is for $1435.00 and from that comes deductibles and co-payments. This leaves very little. That is why I sell knives and such on eBay, I have to. Hud wouldn't provide the person that must be available most of the time.

When you think of those on SS, remember that there is also SSD or SS Disabled. It matters to us greatly what happens.

I forgot that mediCal has an upper limit before payments are reduced. That being $1400.00. That is why co-payments. This is the only housing that I can afford that allows me any freedom. For instance I have a mini machine shop (not yet installed) and I sell all kinds of knives. The other socalled housing is dormitory style and the guy next to you may be a nearly ex-con or psychiatric patient. So no knives. (O keep about 100 in stock) Hud can't help to my knowledge due to my extremely high income (???). You have to love it.

KEITH

From what you tell me, you also make too much money for Medicaid to pick y0ur monthly Medicare Part A premium. The top monthly income to qualify for that is $1196 and you're over the limit.

I'm sorry for that, I truly am. It would be so much better if people like you could be rewarded instead of being punished for making an effort to keep your head above the water.

Please don't let this nonsense about Social Security scare you. Our new President isn't going to let anything happen to the trust fund that millions rely upon. I don't think we've ever had a President with more empathy than the one we have now. A rising tide lifts all ships and that's what he's trying to do.

If I run into anybody looking for a good knife, I'll look you up on e-bay. That's a promise from a died-in-the-wool Democrat. If DOC reads this, I hope he'll do the same.

Damn right. If you don't mind me asking, Keith, could you provide me with a link to one of your eBay offerings so I can start browsing? Among other things, I'd like to see your work. Muy bravo, compadre, muy bravo.

Good Grief!!!!!! I just happened to think of this.

Can you imagine the pickle Keith would be in if Bush had succeeded in indexing Social Security to the stock market.

Thank God THAT initiative failed.

BTW, I'll also check out that e-bay link. I know a few chefs I'll alert if Keith makes culinary knives.

LOL . . . Is this bi-partisianship or what?

Thanks for picking up on this, Twinpac. I imagine there are a number of people on the DR who might be in the market for knives. (Not sure I'd want to bump into them in the hallway of whatever hotel they'll be occupying during the next CPAC conference in, though.)

Damn right. If you don't mind me asking, Keith, could you provide me with a link to one of your eBay offerings so I can start browsing? Among other things, I'd like to see your work. Muy bravo, compadre, muy bravo.

#87 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I have both books fishing stuff (not right now) and knives. Here is a link and all you need to do is see sellers other items.

DOC SARVIS-I have a 14" equalizer that will make your trip in the alley more comfortable. However, I have always found reliance on the Colt .45ACP more in the way of comforting.

KEITH

Tadowe likes this kind of stuff and I know for a fact that he buys knives off e-bay.

Do you have a customer named 'Dowe' from Beaverton, Oregon?

If not, I'll give him your site the next time he shows up on Drudge.

#91 | Posted by keith204

LOL, no kidding!

KEITH - My son is taking up flyfishing. (My wife and I may follow, as well.) Anything in particular you'd recommend? Thanks.

Doc-We are into large tuna fishing. I still have two stand-up harnesses for sale. I have used a streamer for tuna but it is far to hard to land then. 80lb might be a trifle heavy for trout.

Hey Drudgies!

Let's buy out KEITH's eBay Store.

His items are inexpensive and easy to buy on eBay. If you don't have a PayPal account, just sign up for one at PayPal.com, and eBay at "eBay.com". Once you sign up for a PayPal account you can shop till you drop - PayPal will simply debit your bank debit card or credit card ... all right through eBay. Safe and secure. Easy if you haven't done it before. I've never had a problem in many years.

The URL to KEITH's eBay site didn't take, so here it is again:

AMERICANUNITY

I just bought the knife on Keith's e-bay link. It looks absolutely beautiful.

If I don't keep it for myself I can think of a half dozen special people and a half dozen special occasions that I can use it as a great gift.

I'm going to look over Keith stock and see what else I can buy as gifts for this year. My brain is going a thousand miles a minute.

What a fantastic idea.

TWIN

Absolutely the make nice gifts!

Someone like GOATMAN might snatch up the Heinlein books too. There seem to be a few fans of his books here.

Let's keep the word up and post the link to his eBay site on a regular basis.

The internet is a wonderful thing .... and KEITH's a nice person to boot!

I think he'll have aome more knives up later today ... He has some nice stuff, and FREE SHIPPING? How can you beat that...and such reasonable prices to boot?

AU :-)

AMERICAN UNITY

I just checked back on e-bay and I see that Keith has received two more orders after I placed mine.

I wonder if this little promotion of ours is working.

I hope we don't get scolded by Rcade.

Speaking of whom . . . I betcha he could use a nice pocket knife, all carved and decorated.

Rcade??????

If I don't keep it for myself I can think of a half dozen special people and a half dozen special occasions that I can use it as a great gift.

TWINPAC

Every reason to buy six knives ... he he he

At those prices (and free shipping too) anyone doing so would be all set for those special people and special occasions. A nice knife lasts a lifetime.

:-)

TWIN

How could RCADE mind? He knows what a great guy KEITH is. It's not like he's spamming threads looking for biz. I wish I'd known about his site earlier. Glad I found out about it tonight.

He's a really nice guy to whom eBay offers opportunity, and I'd love to see him stay sold out. Those knives are really nice, a great price, and you don't get free shipping every day on eBay either.

Now, if a Robert Heinlen fan buys all the Heinlein books, he can have more room to list those really nice knives ... :-)

TADOWE needs to know about KEITH's site. I know he buys a lot of them if memory serves me correctly. I'm sure there a lots of hunters here too. They could probably even email KEITH and special order something that might not be up for sale now ....

I already mentioned Tadowe. One of us (or DOC) will bring it up the next time he's on the Retort.

I hope more Drudgies jump on this. You don't run into a good two-fur like this very often. (helping someone else and yourself at the same time).

Especially with quality merchandise like Keiths.

Absolutely.

I'd bet some of the hunters (and not) here would love some of Keith's offerings. I'm sure he could get just about anything anyone wanted. What great gift ideas ... and so reasonable too.

It'd be great to keep KEITH hopping with sales and out of trouble there - right below the nuns! LOL

AU

I read all 13 pages of Keith positive feedback (100% positive) and they rave about the quality of his merchandise.

That's good enough for me.

I bought his 5" Bear Claw folding lockblade all decked out with engraved brass fittings. If it's half as good as it looks, I'm going to be everyone's favorite gift giver this year.

Now that's a 'you betcha' you can count on.

"You don't run into a good two-fur like this very often."

TWINPAC - You said it. I checked Keith's site briefly yesterday afternoon but had to keep moving along. I'll get into it today and see what's on offer. I've already got my son, my wife, and myself slated for knives to take fishing and I'm sure my friend the former radical who became a Reupublican (actually more of a Libertarian) attorney and now lives with his shotguns and dogs in a double-gated community waiting for the revolution's tsunami to sweep in on him could use something shiney and sharp.

You too funny, DOC

We haven't heard from Keith yet this morning. It's still a little early out in California.

I'm hoping we can get the daytime crowd to take a look at Keith's e-bay inventory.

That Frost Bear Claw I bought is a match made in heaven for a couple guys I know. For $12 bucks, I didn't even think twice about buying that little beauty.

(An endorsement by Dale Earnhardt, Jr. didn't hurt either. LOL) I found that out when I Googled the brand name "Frost".

This bi-partisian stuff really is a bit of OK. It feels good to lend a helping hand to a fellow Drudgie instead of all the fighting we usually hear around this place.

TWINPAC -

The price is right. I've no idea how he makes a profit on this, but that's his affair I guess. (As long as I don't lose any fingers I'll be satisfied.)

I agree with you: It's good to see something constructive come out of all this. I'd read bits and pieces of Keith's story (turned out I wasn't hallucinating on that convent connection, thank goodness). His experience and that of so many other folks...well, its heartbreaking is what it is.

Many thanks to you.

There aren't the right words in any language to express the way this has made me feel. Thanks to all 8758arnold-Keith G. Arnold

Let's just keep it going, compadre.

KEITH

In spite of the rumors, (LOL) the Drudge Retort is just chock-a-block full of good, decent people . . . left or right . . . it doesn't make any difference when the chips are really down.

We're proud to include you among us.

KEITH

Hey dude, put up some more knives for sale, would ya? Very nice stuff! Great deals and free shipping.

I think he can make or get anything anyone wants, too. What great gift ideas!

WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING TO ALL DR POSTERS:

Amerinutty is armed with more than a chloroform rag and flex cuffs

Thanks to Keith!!

he he he he

Better safe than sorry with nuts like you running around LOL

KEITH -

Can you use any for-free books other than SciFi top ut up on eBay?

top ut up = to put up

AU & DOC

Somebody must be buying. Keith posted this on the Wednesday nooner:

To Danno and others whose eBay handles I don't know. thanks so much. You have made possible something I much desired and can now do. Thanks isn't much but maybe someday I will be able to return you friendship in a more tangible way.

Wow!

WOW!!!

#6 | Posted by keith204 at 2009-03-04 12:13 PM

TWINPAC -

All I gotta say is, these fuckin' knives better work.

:>)

TWINPAC - Thanks for noting Keith's post, as I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

DOC

You warm the cockles of my heart.

If you weren't a happily married man I'd come up there and wisk you away in a minute. LOL

ROTFLMAO

Thanks isn't much but maybe someday I will be able to return you friendship in a more tangible way.

KEITH, you're one of the most decent people I've run across on the internet. The fact you keep up such a positive attitude with all that faces you on a day to day basis speaks volumes for the size of your heart and your character.

If we can make you the "Knife King of The Internet" the world will be just that much better of a place. Your merchandise is really, really nice, extremely affordable, and with the free shipping too?

Hard to pass up an opportunity like that!

Everyone should check out your site. Great stuff and great deals too:

AU

and with the free shipping too?

Absolutely!

In fact, I learned on e-bay that in order to ship First Class he trucks those packages over to the Post Office himself in an electric wheelchair.

How 'bout that, Drudgies!

he trucks those packages over to the Post Office himself in an electric wheelchair.

How 'bout that, Drudgies!

#125 | Posted by Twinpac at 2009-03-04 04:08 PM | Reply |

I'm going to order one as soon as they report rainstorms in his area.

KEITH -

"I will be able to return you friendship in a more tangible way."

I think everyone here would say, "Not necessary." As AU says above, you seem like a really decent person. You didn't ask, we did.

Got a knife buy order in today and will be back for more. Do let me know about the book thing, when you get a chance---as in, just SciFi or can you use other books that are shipped to you (no cost your end)?

TWINPAC -

I'm glad your cockles are warm. I dare not tell Mrs. Doc Sarvis, because even though I'm a cranky old bastard with blown out football knees she still seems keen. Of course, me being wedded to a 20-foot chain seems to nail things down pretty tight.

101ST

In case you miss the NOONER post, I just bought you a "Paratrooper" knife. If you want it email KEITH where to send it. If you don't want it tell him so he can relist it as the "101STCHAIRBORNE Paratrooper Special". LOL

DOC

I'm crushed. And here I was, getting all ready to open my chalet in the Alps.

Curses! Foiled again!

LOL

DOC

Did you see that nice little "Doctor's Knife" - Cancun Blue - on KEITH's eBay sales? Sounds like it was made for you ...

Interesting to note the vast support that Drudge bloggers are offering the pension recipients of these companies, and holding the execs liable for the mismanagement. Wonder if the same sentiments would be offered if the article was about government pension plans.

DOCTOR'S KNIFE
#130 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

It is now. Thanks for the tip!

TWINPAC -

See, it's that Alps thing.

Now, if you had a Caribbean locale on offer...