Clinton's fault! Or maybe Carter.

The personal savings rate dropped from 9 percent in the 1980s to 5 percent in the 1990s, to just 0.6 percent from 2005 to 2007, and household debt grew much faster than personal income.

Huh? Keynesian retards keep telling me this is a good thing. Patriotic even! Hell, even Emperor BHO told me not to save in his press conference last week. So what's the problem?

Exactly what I told y'all several years ago about that "great Bush economy."

Exactly what I told y'all several years ago about that "great Bush economy."
#3 | Posted by danni

Yep, plenty of us did. 8 years of smoke and mirrors.

Speak for yourself, I'm worth much, much more now than 8 years ago.

An expanded economy means more money was added into the overall economy, not that it was merely shifted around, SHIRTSBYERIC.

- worth much, much more now than 8 years ago.

Well, the closer you start to zero.....

"Speak for yourself, I'm worth much, much more now than 8 years ago."

Many folks are, but for them to be richer someone else is then necessarily poorer. I have contended for years that the wealthy have benefited from changes in tax laws and deregulation which benefited the mat the expense of everyone else. However, for all their phoney baloney claims about tax cuts stimulating the economy, no wealth was created it was just transferred from one group or person to another.

Eric, has the bounty on skunk, gopher and other varmints been raised in your county?

Seriously tho, your personal experience is certainly primary to you; but the larger question would be' was your success a product of Bush policies which would not have been possible under another Pres?

If you are proffiting from the Iraq war, and GWOT
in a commercial sense, I guess Bush's policies
Would have been a boon.

In what sector do you work?

I've always envissioned you in ironing.

Speak for yourself, I'm worth much, much more now than 8 years ago.
#5 | Posted by shirtsbyeric

You're the only one speaking for yourself here, eric. Everyone else is talking about the country as a whole.

So what this report is telling us is that for the past 8 years or so, the economy has been a "Zero sum game". Because the economy was not growing, for someone to get richer someone else had to get poorer.

Isn't this the result of the "service based" economy where no one really makes anythins, so no one really creates any wealth to add to the economy?

I am not sure that his is a dem or repub thing. It is something that needs to be addressed.

We need to get real wealth creation back into our economy. We need manufacturing to be back in the US.

This is the only way this ceases to be a zero sum game and people can become richer, not at the expense of someone else, but because there is more to go around.

"We need to get real wealth creation back into our economy. We need manufacturing to be back in the US."

Thing is, we're a global economy now, like it or not. Out-competing other countries is the only way that manufacturing is going to return to the US, and our standard of living is too high for that to happen. So in a sense, if manufacturing is what you want, a big fat depression is your means to that end.

The only way around that is for the US to invest itself in something that no other country does or does well at the least. THat's why I'm somewhat persuaded by Obama's emphasis on a green economy.

"Out-competing other countries is the only way that manufacturing is going to return to the US, and our standard of living is too high for that to happen."

That is just not true. We can also, and have historically, enact tariffs to protect our manufacturing industries just like most of our competitors are doing right now.

Wow you all figured me out, I'm profiting from the Iraq war by killing Skunks and Gophers and I tagged my prosperity to Bush.

/keep guessing guys.

//and your hatred has profited you how?

It's because more people are sending out their shirts to Eric's service instead of throwing them away and buying new ones.

Actually I pulled myself up with my boot straps and I did it without a government help.

In the last 8 years Republicans have proven conclusively that, contrary to their claims, they are fiscally, militarily and national security inept. Add in their moral ineptitude and all they've got left to run on is being the party with fewest darkies. That, in itself, will garner the 18-20% stupid vote, but that'll be about it.

Oh no! How convenient. There will be nothing to re-distribute...a typical B.S. from the usual suspect.

"Actually I pulled myself up with my boot straps"

I never had a pair of boots, much less a pair with straps. They sound cute though.

"Yep, plenty of us did. 8 years of smoke and mirrors."

In fairness, its been well over 8 years.

"We can also, and have historically, enact tariffs to protect our manufacturing industries just like most of our competitors are doing right now."

Globalists will respond with "What if other countries retaliate?"

First of all, WE WOULD BE THE ONES RETALIATING SINCE MOST OF THEM DO IT ALREADY. Secondly, the countries that would be most upset have a huge imbalance of trade with us. They have more to lose playing tit for tat than we do at this point.

Danni; Straps...Danni;Straps...MUST RESIST!
Losing strength! Must...fight...urge to mention strap-ons. Sitting on 2 dumps!!

Greenspan had a wealth creation plan. Inflate prices and debts. Its like magic.

"Sitting on 2 dumps!!"

I could easily make a stupid and disgusting comment here but won't.

"Globalists will respond with "What if other countries retaliate?"

I agree with you about their potential for retaliation but really, if we don't do something to begin rebuilding our manufacturing we will be on a rapid slide to second world status anyway.
I think the potential for retaliation is less than the unavoidable economic spiral if we don't.

Sitting on 2 dumps!!

#21 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I could easily make a stupid and disgusting comment here but won't.

#23 | Posted by danni

"No worries, I got it covered."

I appreciate that, just didn't want to go there.

Our manufacturing came, primarily from emmigration out of Europe and Asia. We got it from them cause we were the lower cost workers, then.

Now we are losing to LOWER COST WORKERS somewhere else. They in turn will lose it back to us when their workers demand access and pay comisurate with what's in the marketplace. It is historic and fact, and will repeat itself over and over!

We need to focus on training the work force for what's coming at us. This IS the second thing to do, just after we determine what the future demand for qualifications in our workforce will be.

Put the cart before the horse, determine our future! If it is to be GREEN, then let's start NOW training for GREEN jobs! After all we are paying thru the nose for education, we should get SOMETHING for that money besides LOBBYISTS and 'Experts in Their Fields'.

The funny thing about the boot strap analogy is that it is in fact impossible to lift yourself into the air by pulling on your boot straps. Was this a tongue in cheek metaphor by the republicans? That or their notorious dislike of science led them to believe that you actually could do it....

"They in turn will lose it back to us when their workers demand access and pay comisurate with what's in the marketplace. It is historic and fact, and will repeat itself over and over!"

Not really. The Chinese government will slaughter millions of their own people before they allow them to organize and demand a higher standard of living. Fact is that some countries will keep their cost of labor artificially low.

The problem with all these free market theorists is that they ignore the simple fact that the free market is a fantasy. Mind as well be talking about how to save Bigfoot from extinction.

The funny thing about the boot strap analogy is that it is in fact impossible to lift yourself into the air by pulling on your boot straps. Was this a tongue in cheek metaphor by the republicans? That or their notorious dislike of science led them to believe that you actually could do it....

#28 | Posted by dibblda at 2009-02-16 04:39 PM | Reply

I've always hated that expression, too.

You don't "pull yourself up by your bootstraps."

I suppose you could say, "pull your boots up by the straps." But, that's even less exciting than the other nonsensical expression.

Republicans need to find newer cliches.

"The problem with all these free market theorists is that they ignore the simple fact that the free market is a fantasy. Mind as well be talking about how to save Bigfoot from extinction."

Yep. Momentary flirtations with laissez-faire always end up the same way, in regulated capitalism, i.e., really existing capitalism as it is really practiced.

Capitalism is a government program.

It's not a "nonsensical" expression. The cliche means to pull oneself up (from poverty) by pulling up your boots and going to work. Did you honestly not understand that or are you just poking fun?

"Momentary flirtations with laissez-faire always end up the same way, in regulated capitalism, i.e., really existing capitalism as it is really practiced."

The same can be said for our "momentary (current) flirtations with socialism." Our style of representative government will deliver a scaled-down and thereby less "effective" version of that ideology.

Did you honestly not understand that or are you just poking fun?

#32 | Posted by JOE at 2009-02-16 05:00 PM | Reply

I understand the point of the expression. I just prefer, "get off your lazy ass and get a job."

"The same can be said for our "momentary (current) flirtations with socialism."

No, fool. The normal state of affairs during the 400 year history of capitalism is regulated capitalism, what you call "socialism".

What ever happened to going to Mars? THe space race seems to be rather lame lately and with the space shuttle about to be retired I would say we will soon turn that programme over to another competitor and just use their services to launch stuff up into space. Sha-oot - I figgurd weed be flyin round in space cars by now - at least I thought so when I was a wee boy in the 1970s.

We really have not created wealth/capital since late sixties if you really want to look into this issue...about the time we became American consumers instead of American Producers.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Go back two years, and the numbers would have looked much better. Amazing what happens when the stock market gets annihilated, and housing prices adjust back to where they were just a few years ago.

Fast forward a year, and you'll see it'll be even worse. As markets trend lower and as real estate continues to fall--it will--you'll see stats like "no wealth created in US since 1994." Then 1991. And so on. Nothing like deflation to make the analysts pull up old SPX charts.

RiR-

If, next year, we get to 1992 timeframe we won't hear about it, because then it unwinds the entire reign of St. Clinton, and the press won't want to make that comparison.

BillO-

Still hoping for someone in a position of authority to "realize" that Marx and Hegel had it right?

"Still hoping for someone in a position of authority to "realize" that Marx and Hegel had it right?"

Translation: You're a communist!

Weak, Righto. You can do better than that, given the outstanding university you attended. :)

What I said above stands. Laissez faire is the exception, not the rule in the history of capitalism. And it always has to be rescued from self-destruction by government.

Although trying to get manufacturing back to the U.S. may seem like a fix, it is like trying to rewind time, and won't help in the long run.

We in the U.S. are no longer in the "Manufacturing Age," but are rather now entering the "Information Age" (just like how in the late-18th/early-19th century we moved out of the "Agricultural Age" into the "Manufacturing Age," and most of those small farmers who decided not to jump on board were left in the dust).

The best way to get out of the hole is by creating more jobs that flow with "Information Age" concepts, which naturally will involve the internet and faster/smaller/more efficient computing. All schools (elementary schools, high schools, colleges, etc.) should heavily focus on "Information Age" concepts, just like schools in the 1800's gradually moved away from horse-weight and grow cycles...

Fed: No Wealth Created in US Since 2001
Citizens: No Shit!

Joe,

Here you go:

Thing is, we're a global economy now, like it or not. Out-competing other countries is the only way that manufacturing is going to return to the US, and our standard of living is too high for that to happen. So in a sense, if manufacturing is what you want, a big fat depression is your means to that end.

LOL! Small minds looking down at their toes in defeat spouting words from others as if that is the way it has to be.

Don't try and correct our problem because by God WE ARE A GLOBAL ECONOMY NOW and our economy is a service one and there is no way possible that we can change that!

Hag

And it always has to be rescued from self-destruction by government.

#39 | Posted by nullifidian

... As we watch government self-destruct. How's life in Wonderland old boy?

And there's old Money still scolding everybody for not coming up with a solution for the world's economic problems when he has none of his own.

What a world.

"How's life in Wonderland old boy?

#44 | Posted by Ray at 2009-02-16 08:43 PM | Reply | "

You tell me, grandpa. What fringe theory are you promoting today? In medicine? Economics? Cosmology?

And there's Ray who doesn't understand anyones ideas or solutions but BUY GOLD damnit.

Ray,

You not liking the solutions and the directions we need to go and casting your continued negative doom and gloom has been fun to watch.

Over the last few years I have come to understand your doubting thomas doom gloom I can't mentality and just see how you seem to get value or worth from reading and understanding the economy. In your eyes since it is not your way it is going to fail and nothing we can do to stop it so we should just put up our hands sit on the sofa and casts those doom and gloom forecasts on the web.

Your fucking socialist world is collapsing. Have fun going over the cliff with the herd.

If you work for California, you may not be getting paid soon. Government downsizing at last. I love it.

I can't mentality and just see how you seem to get value or worth from reading and understanding the economy.

Money - The value is in staying ahead of events before they happen. I stayed out of the traps that so many are falling into today. You may take comfort in having company when your wealth is being destroyed. That's not for me.

In your eyes since it is not your way it is going to fail and nothing we can do to stop it so we should just put up our hands sit on the sofa and casts those doom and gloom forecasts on the web.

So far, Money, all I see you do is whine about everybody else. That's all you do.

"How's life in Wonderland old boy?

Just fine, how's life on the dark side?

Ray,

Sorry old boy but never has free market theories ever lead to anything but what we are going through now. History my dear boy.

Economies are made to serve the benefit of the people, not the other way around. When the people are no longer served it fails.

Sorry old boy but never has free market theories ever lead to anything but what we are going through now. History my dear boy.

You're blaming free markets on this??? Man, you're lost. I mean really lost.

Economies don't serve anybody. They are not politicians or gods. They are what the masses make of them. And right now, Mr. Market is telling the masses they fucked up pretty bad.

Why not give Ray the credit he's due? He saw this coming before any of us--myself included. And while he and I might disagree on the best way to protect ourselves, or even profit from it, he was way ahead of the curve. In the world I live in, that is worthy of respect.

Try it sometime. Try to employ some of that open-mindedness you always celebrate, when the issue is something you pretend to care about. You might even learn something.

Now, if we could only do something about these goddamn Zionist kikes on Wall Street we can do a complete 180 on this Road to Serfdom.

Right, Raymond?

or even profit from it

I, for one, have a rather nifty SOQ package in the chamber.

You may rest assured that untold millions of your stimulus dollars are determining the impact to "Jurisdictional Waters of the United States" and Golden Cheek Warblers caused by your bridges to nowhere.

Gosh, accounting practices can mask anything. Houses, which provided the same shelter, appreciated in value. Then they declined in value. What does that reflect? Well, value in one sense and not the other.

There certainly was a lot of material goods distributed and used during that period.

But the contention is that the cumulative contribution did not produce and aggregate addition when evaluation was made based on misleading accounting definitions and procedures.

Maybe it's the CPAs, who should be drawn and quartered together with the politicians and the Wall Street and banking folks. What a purge. And then what?

What if the value of existing goods were adjusted for inflation or deflation without regard to other economic fluctuations? would the net value exceed or be less than what it was previously. And then add the goods and services produced and used to sustain society and life during the intervening period.

The level of the Dow Jones Avg is the same as 1997.

America will continue to see our economy decline as long as we have a balance of trade so lopsided with China and other low wage nations. It still amazes me that former anti-Communist Republicans are so willing to watch us undermine our own economy for the benefit of a Communist country. Remember when China was always referred to as "Communist China?"
Flag pins to not equal patriotism and many who wear them proudly profit as they help our enemy destroy our country. Americans need to wake up and realize that China is not now and never has been our friend. Its goal has always been to destroy the capitalist nations of the west and many of our richest citizens happily assist them. These people are worse than enemies of the past because they own and control our media which broadcasts propaganda 24/7 in an attempt to convince us to believe them instead of our lying eyes. America slowly destroys itself while traitors like Limbaugh cheer on the greedy outsourcers. Someday soon Americans may just realize the truth, when and if they do the liars may find that they are recognized as the antiAmerican scum that they are and hopefully be dealt with as such.

Exactly what I told y'all several years ago about that "great Bush economy."

----

Give it a rest. The personal savings rate has been on a downward trend for a couple of decades. It went down under Clinton as well. This is more about the American consumption culture than anything else.

so, if no wealth was created since 2001 then no wealth not created since then has not been lost? it was wealth created before 2001 that has been lost - clinton's fault.

It was fun while it lasted..must take pile from here and put it there.

Not to difficult to do...you just have to have the discipline to make and then move your piles of monies around.

Time to move piles to, well, figure it out yourself. Thats how it works.

Just think of the discipline of $1ooo in Microsoft during it's launch. Would that have killed you? Would that have put you in an entirely different tax bracket? What a cheatin capitalist pig you are wanting to do better for your family. Too bad...life is good. Now go get your own.

The global economy is falling into depression, and cannot recover until debts are written down. Our government is doing the opposite.

The Obama bank bailout is arranged much like an IMF loan to support the exchange rate of foreign currency, but with the Treasury supporting financial asset prices for U.S. banks and other financial institutions. Instead of banks and oligarchs abandoning the dollar, the aim is to enable them to dump their bad mortgages and CDOs and receive domestic Treasury bonds. Private-sector debt will be moved onto the U.S. Government balance sheet, where "taxpayers" will bear losses mainly labor not Wall Street, inasmuch as the financial sector has been freed of income-tax liability by the "fine print" in last fall's Paulson-Bush bailout package. Unlike the IMF, the U.S. Government is handling the situation entirely in domestic dollars.

As in Third World austerity programs, the effect of keeping the debts in place at the "real" economy's expense will be to shrink the domestic U.S. market while providing opportunities for hedge funds to pick up depreciated assets cheaply as the federal government, states and cities sell them off. This is called letting the banks "earn their way out of debt." It's strangling the "real" economy, because not a dollar of the government's response has been devoted to reducing the overall debt volume.

The hapless mortgage-burdened family stuck in their negative-equity home turns out to be merely a passive vehicle for the Treasury to pass debt relief on to the commercial banks.

Few news stories have made this clear: For every $100,000 of write-down in debt owed by over-mortgaged homeowners, the bank will receive $100,000 from the Treasury. Government debt will rise by $100,000, and the process will continue until the Treasury has transferred $50,000,000 to the banks that made the reckless loans. There is only enough for just 500 of these renegotiations of $100,000 each. Won't make a dent, but a harbinger for many further bailouts.

Calling the $12 trillion giveaway to bankers a "subprime crisis" makes it appear that bleeding-heart liberals got Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into trouble by insisting that these public-private institutions make irresponsible loans to the poor.

The party line is, "Blame the victim." But we know this is false. The bulk of bad loans are concentrated in the largest banks. It was Countrywide and other banksters that led the irresponsible lending and brought heavy-handed pressure on Fannie Mae. Most of the nation's smaller, local banks didn't make such reckless loans. The big mortgage shops didn't care about loan quality, because they were run by salesmen. The Treasury is paying off the gamblers and billionaires by supporting the value of bank loans, investments and derivative gambles, leaving the Treasury in debt.

Excerpted from Michael Hudson @ Counterpunch