The Republicon party's only hope for the short-term is to be the party of opposition. This has been stated both explicitly and implicitly to the media. Once they find their direction, they'll be better focused. The more interesting picture for them will be whether or not they will remain captive to the gun nuts, religious zealots, and anti-abortion kooks. Their oh-so-often stated "core message" of smaller government is admirable, but will have to wait until we can overcome the current economic crisis, then pay down some of the debt from the War of Choice in Iraq and Obama's spending frenzy.

This was worth at least half a buck anyway!

Blah blah blah

And no bleating coming from the right please.

It's not bleating, to point out how preposterous it is that you lefties have signed on to the idea of borrowing trillions of dollars from the Chinese to bail out Wall Street investment banks.

Keep selling.

Republicans semm hellbent on working their way to oblivion. Increasingly more people are seeing the Republicans as lacking ideas. Quite a few of their more intellectual members have also mentioned this. Yet pointing that out is considered bleating. Sounds like Republicans deserve oblivion, if that's the only way they will wake up.

How would the world look today if we didn't borrow from the Chinese to go wage the Iraq war?

How would this country look like if the rules were not relaxed and banks were not allowed to leverage and to sell toxic assets without understanding the risks? If bank CEO's would be more concerned with long term viability and prosperity of their firms, as well as being accountable for their actions? Wouldn't that be better than shamelessly taking unconscionable risks to enhance their own bonuses without regard to shareholders and possible effects on the economy?

How would the country look today if we would require proper financial education in high schools and people would not fall prey so easily to a banking system designed to squeeze them to financial death?

How would the country look if the government would use more money for something other than war and enrichment of a few?

What would happen if the government would play a bigger role in making sure that this country has a 21st century infrastructure, health care system and education system that would put us way ahead of the rest of the world? If instead of waiting for others to catch up and let everything decay we would strive to be so far ahead of the rest of the world that it would make it hard for them to catch up?

Can Republicans wrap up their minds around the idea that people's lives are important, that every life is precious, and this spiraling down the loss of jobs and dignity, lack of access to health care, and in many instances to the basics of life - that happens today in this most powerful and rich country in the world is morally shameful, that it need not happen to such an extent?

Can Republicans find a way to reconcile the idea that prosperity for the country as a whole benefits everybody including more so the very rich? That there is perhaps another way?

This is a special situation and a unique opportunity for Republicans to acquire a conscience and try to meet Democrats half way. They can continue to demoralize America and to root for the failure of this administration's efforts to save the country from the morass that they brought it into, or they can try to be truly part of the solution.

Republicans can say only their ideas work and they can refuse to believe that there is another way and that all people have a right to a decent life, deserve opportunities and a shot to the American dream.

Can the Republicans really afford to continue recycling old ideas doomed to fail the majority of American people? Are they really so dense, so insensitive and irresponsible? Do they really have so little good to contribute?

Bravo, "Change"girl. Good rhetoric! Almost straight from Air America--it sure sounded like it came right off the Maddow show.

So let me try.

Can the Democrats really sell America on the idea that we should be selling $2 trillion worth of future tax hikes to the Chinese, to save Wall Street investment bankers and hedge fund managers?

Can the Democrats really hope that an "infrastructure stimulus bill", of which only 12% is dedicated to infrastructure, and of which 60% of the funds won't hit for another 3 years--could be expected to do anything?

Can the Democrats expect that a massive transfer of risk from the lousy banks' balance sheets onto those of the Treasury Department will stop the inevitable unwinding of the credit cycle?

Can the Democrats expect that Americans will forget, that just a few months ago they ran on a pay-as-you-go agenda?

Can the Democrats really hope that Americans' frustration with Bush's deficit spending will immediately cease, given Obama's expectation to more than TRIPLE Bush's deficits, for the next several years?

And most of all, can the Democrats really expect that the world's foreign investors will be hungry to snap up all this new Treasury debt issuance, when they're facing deflations of their own?

Go ahead and live in your rhetorical world. My address is in the real one. Keep selling.

give more trillions away in taxes to the same cast of characters

I am not aware that the government owns any money that they can give away in the first place. Maybe you leftards can explain this one to me.

Any money a person has was theirs in the first place.

Republicans don't seem to understand that a new president has a honeymoon period. They think the obstructionism will hurt his popularity, but I think it's woefully mistimed.

If the leaders of your Party are John Boehner, John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell and Rush Limbaugh, not necessarily in that order, obstructionism is as much a way of life as is daily constipation.

let me summarize what you are really saying

in order for republicans to be considered bipartisan they must do as we say and vote for what we want even in the face of those votes running counter to their principals.
that to get along they have to go along
and thats a crock of shit.......

there will be no charge for this translation.

Republicans don't seem to understand that a new president has a honeymoon period.

And that means rubber-stamping anything he asks for? I somehow doubt that.

"Republicans don't seem to understand that a new president has a honeymoon period. They think the obstructionism will hurt his popularity, but I think it's woefully mistimed."

I don't know and I don't care about His popularity, but I believe we NEED some obstructionism...like THIS!

Keep selling.
#5 | Posted by rightisright

Yeah, that kind of me first and me only thinking isn't contributing to the problem. Of course not.

RR told me that he didn't start short-selling until Obama won.

So this is a calculated effort on his part to undermine his country.

RR told me that he didn't start short-selling until Obama won.

So this is a calculated effort on his part to undermine his country.

No, he just didn't believe that we were going over a cliff. Once the first bailout passed, his tune changed.

Continuing to pile up debt for failing industry after failing industry at the expense of the American taxpayer is undermining this country.

RR told me that he didn't start short-selling until Obama won.
So this is a calculated effort on his part to undermine his country.
#16 | Posted by Corky

He's said that a number of times on plenty of threads. He's a special type of American. Of course I use the word "American" very loosely.

-Continuing to pile up debt

Funny how deficit spending wasn't a problem for Repubes these last 8 years. Well, until Obama took office.

"Continuing to pile up debt for failing industry after failing industry at the expense of the American taxpayer is undermining this country."

Then I'm sure you'll be pleased that GM is asking for more billions.

OH....and that the patriotic UAW is refusing to cooperate...

Funny how deficit spending wasn't a problem for Repubes these last 8 years. Well, until Obama took office.

It was always a problem for me. Then again, I don't fit in your left/right paradigm pigeon holes.

Step up Corky...

You call RiR unAmerican for short selling. Yet we bailed out one of the biggest short sellers in the country (Goldman Sachs). Where was your outrage at this government backed theft? Or are you ok with theft as long as the government is doing it?

Then I'm sure you'll be pleased that GM is asking for more billions.

OH....and that the patriotic UAW is refusing to cooperate...

Of course, I'm fucking thrilled!

Seriously, why should the UAW do anything? All they have to do is sit tight. Then there will be much handwringing, and the American taxpayer will take it in the ass again.

No, most people don't like the stark necessity of having to bail out some of these butchers.

It's just that some people man up and do what needs to be done, while others merely whine about it and pretend they have no responsibility to find solutions.

"Funny how deficit spending wasn't a problem for Repubes these last 8 years."

I don't know what it is with you and your little friends here on the DR. Do you assume that just because we oppose Obama's spending plans that we looooved Bush's plans? Hell, he never vetoed a single bill in his first six years. You DID notice, didn't you, that his popularity was in the tank. A great number of those disapproving were conservatives, you know.

As much as most of your little friends here hate to admit it, you voted for Bush, probably twice.

"Seriously, why should the UAW do anything?"

True....make GM declare bankruptcy, then we'll see.

CORKY

This article says the GOP's next political tact is to try to make the conversation about the national debt.

How ironic considering that between Reagan's $2.5 trillion and W's $6 trillion, most of the national debt is accounted for ....

And Republicans have made it clear that they intend to try to shift the economic debate toward concern about the federal deficit.

They are also preparing to use the ballooning deficit to renew their push for additional tax cuts.

"As much as most of your little friends here hate to admit it, you voted for Bush, probably twice."

No I didn't. I voted against Gore and Kerry.

So, you admit to voting for Bush, twice.

Legally, that means no one has to listen to anything you say for the next 8 years.

No, most people don't like the stark necessity of having to bail out some of these butchers.

It's just that some people man up and do what needs to be done, while others merely whine about it and pretend they have no responsibility to find solutions.

Come on Corky, don't be a pussy and dodge...

How can you support the bailout of the biggest short sellers in the country and then have the audacity to call someone Unamerican for doing the exact same thing? You can't, unless you're a giant fucking hypocrite.

RIR is being responsible and finding a solution. He's getting every bit he can from this sinking ship before it ends up on the bottom of the ocean.

"They will succeed in making it clear to Joe Public that deficits and the national debt have risen exponentially under their failed policies."

What it all comes down to is that we MUST reduce spending to cut the deficit. Reagan's tax cuts actually increased revenue, but the government spending increased MORE. If we get taxed more, those assholes in D.C. will spend it all and MORE. None of it will be used to retire any of the national debt. It's all a house of cards that can't last and NEITHER party is innocent and blameless.

AU

The GOP has only their tired old propaganda left to them. With any luck, they will position themselves entirely outside the actual debate before the 2010 elections.

What it all comes down to is that we MUST reduce spending to cut the deficit. Reagan's tax cuts actually increased revenue, but the government spending increased MORE. If we get taxed more, those assholes in D.C. will spend it all and MORE. None of it will be used to retire any of the national debt. It's all a house of cards that can't last and NEITHER party is innocent and blameless.

Less government is never the answer unfortunately, no matter who's in charge.

Creamface

I would throw you a rope if you were drowning. RR would offer to sell you one.

But, I do understand. In you and RR's philosophy, as long as you get yours, everyone else be damned.

"Legally, that means no one has to listen to anything you say for the next 8 years."

LOL.... you're a fruitcake, you know that? I bet you get tingles up BOTH legs when your idol speaks. Yeah...I voted AGAINST Him too, not FOR anyone. I don't make idols of any politicians. Actually, I can't stomach most of them, it's just a case of which ones I dislike least at the polls. I've never gotten any "tingles."

Is this you? If not, it's certainly one of your little friends.

JEST

Tax cuts may or may not increase revenues in a good economy, but they're hardly a good idea when millions are losing their jobs at the same time in a shrinking economy and won't be paying taxes.

There's another thread that just popped up about the fact the economy didn't grow at all from 2001-Now. Revenues and productivity didn't increase due to Bush's two rounds of tax cuts for the wealthy, did they? They only created huger deficits.

But, I do understand. In you and RR's philosophy, as long as you get yours, everyone else be damned.

What you don't understand is that in our philosophy, if you don't "get yours", better luck next time. In your philosophy, you are going to make sure they get theirs, no matter how little they deserve it and even if it is at the expense of everyone else.

-if you don't "get yours", better luck next time

More like tough shit than better luck.

But then, "love your neighbor as yourself" was always a bit too high a standard for Tighties.

Too much like communism, eh?

"Reagan's tax cuts actually increased revenue, but the government spending increased MORE."

3 trillion more....I don't think so.

Reagan's tax cuts actually increased revenue, but the government spending increased MORE. If we get taxed more, those assholes in D.C. will spend it all and MORE. None of it will be used to retire any of the national debt. It's all a house of cards that can't last and NEITHER party is innocent and blameless.

#31 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2009-02-16 12:00 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

If that ain't a bunch of poppycock I don't know what is. When You take in less thyan something You reduce how much is collected. How can anyone in here think tax cuts actually bring in more revenue. Even I am not that stupid.

Larry

But then, "love your neighbor as yourself" was always a bit too high a standard for Tighties.

Too much like communism, eh?

"love your neighbor as yourself" is not synonymous with "love your banker as yourself"

"love your neighbor as yourself"

mine was just foreclosed.

So, you admit to voting for Bush, twice.

Legally, that means no one has to listen to anything you say for the next 8 years.

#29 | Posted by Corky at 2009-02-16

well then I guess you are glad to be back since this means that you never said a word from 2000 to 2008;....lol

And that means rubber-stamping anything he asks for?

No. It means recognizing what it will look like when you lose a political fight to the popular new president. All the Repubs have been known for the past week is obstructionism -- opposing every aspect of the stimulus plan and complaining at their mistreatment.

Instead, they should've put forward an alternative. It would still have lost, but they'd be on record as putting an agenda forward. Right now their entire agenda is two words: "Obama sucks."

It seems to me that most Republicans "Rushed" and got "Limbaughed".
Or, dumbed down. Or, you could even say that they become anti-American under Limbaugh's leadership. Or, more Taliban like

Republicans are following R.L. is like a herd of sheep up a mountain behind a blind dumb sheep-in-chief. They are going merrily towards the abyss. Being as excited as they are now Mmmmm, I've seen that beforeWasn't it Sara Palin that excited those same crowds not too long ago They were dumb then, and they are at it again.

To sit there every day and pray that Obama fails when Americans are suffering in such great numbers after so many years of failed Republican policies defies common sense and decency.

No wondered they were left out of the plan (even though not completely, to my dissatisfaction). They are so stupid and blind, they don't deserve the honor.

If after the near death experience of the economy they still want to solve the problem with trillions of dollars in tax cuts for the very rich who don't need it at the moment in the first place, they are proving that they don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what they have done, much less how to solve it.

Letting Republicans solve this mess at this juncture is like giving the village wealth to the village idiot. They would do anything but help those who need help the most right now and help jumpstart the economy.

Republicans should have accepted the overtures made to them, and the tax cutting compromise that was made in order to bring them to the table, and they should do their utmost effort to help Obama in the struggle to fix the mess they made. Instead, they try to undermine him and the credibility of the plan anyway they can. What an idiotic behavior! There needs to be a return of confidence in order for things to start to stabilize and then return to normal, in addition to all the practical measures.

The majority of economists say we are in a dangerous spiraling down process that needs to be stopped by massive spending. The only entity capable of that right now is the government. Fixing an almost 3 trillion dollar gap in spending with the stimulus package is probably not enough, so more needs to be done.

Republicans should unite to help Obama solve the mess, not in praying that he fails. If Obama fails, the American people fail Why can't they see that? This way beyond frustrating, and if they continue to follow R.L., Republicans deserve to disappear into oblivion. The frustrating part is that this should be really a two party system, and the part that should provide a counter balance has completely lost it and is basically useless, or even worse, it's a drag.

Here is to hoping that one day I find out that Republicans remember that they are first and foremost Americans and they will have a positive contribution.

but again ms girl

the dems only want repubs to come on board even if it means they compromise thier conservative principals and that means that more dems will be elected

I also find it typical that you didnt mention one single dem who voted no of which there were more than one or two..UNLEsS I MISSeD IT in your post...

Here is to hoping that one day I find out that Republicans remember that they are first and foremost Americans and they will have a positive contribution.

Changegirl - welcome back btw - the problem is that those Republicans you speak of above will say until their dying breath that they are first and foremost Americans, like George W Bush has said a thousand times, and they believe it, but they are wrong. They are lying without even knowing it.

McCain, McConnell, Lindsay Graham, and the leading Republicans in Congress are perfect examples.

Changegirl wrote:
"Republicans are following R.L. is like a herd of sheep up a mountain behind a blind dumb sheep-in-chief. They are going merrily towards the abyss. Being as excited as they are now Mmmmm, I've seen that beforeWasn't it Sara Palin that excited those same crowds not too long ago They were dumb then, and they are at it again."

Sarah! is lying (pun intended) relatively low until 2010. In the meantime, a certain fat, drug-addicted former disc jockey with no political sense or training will continue to lead the ignorant through one or two more losing elections. I hope he stays on the air, as it assures more chances for the Dems in 2010.

I wasn't saying that the stimulus bill should get 100% support. That would be weird. But the show of unity that Republicans displayed against it is absolutely ridiculous.
Their behavior is completely irrational, theatrical, and they can't really achieve anything with it. It is hard to believe that they can sink even lower than during the last administration, but somehow they are managing it.

This is not the moment for politics as usual and cheap theatrics. This is not the moment to root for your opponents to fail so you can do more damage. This is the moment to show unity around the common goal to turn this country away from the precipice they lead us towards. They probably didn't get he memo.

These poor souls still think it is the radio age. Lost in time and left in the dust they are rallying around a clueless guy, and they are showing a lack of intelligence, common sense and bad judgment that is absolutely appalling.

Some of us would like to take some pride in the leadership of this country, but these caricatures make it impossible to do so. We all know that politics is what it is, but we still have a right to expect much better than these suckers can do.

I find it amusing that people like "ChangeGirl" have managed to engineer a rollover of their intellectual impotence into the new Obama administration. In a continuation of the pattern exhibited by the Left over the last 8 years, there's never a cogent argument for anything. Its just an attack on the other side.

"ChangeGirl" can't really tell you why she's for the stimulus bill---other than some vague appeal to the fact that its an Obama initiative. In fact, I'd like to propose a new logical fallacy---Argumentium ad Obamaii---that is, an Appeal to the Rhetoric of Obama as a form of argumentation. The Messiah himself is a habitual exhibitor of this fallacy as he attempts to explain his naive economic "solutions" to the country: "Look, as I've said before." Ever heard that one? But I digress.

But the show of unity that Republicans displayed against it is absolutely ridiculous.

Why?

It's a piece of shit bill that's more of a power grab by left-wing Democrats than it is a "stimulus". Why would you vote for bad legislation that exponentially expands the power of the federal government. Why vote for "infrastructure stimulus" that won't be implemented for years because there's no concurrent reform of NEPA policy? Why vote for stupid-ass, starry-eyed nods to economically unfeasible and unsustainable "green energy" programs that don't work? Republicans don't want their name on this shit---and rightly so.

Their behavior is completely irrational, theatrical, and they can't really achieve anything with it.

Oh, but they certainly can. And you know it---which is why you're devoting so much substance-free) rhetoric to the topic. The show of unity represents the people in this country who, despite the best efforts of a sycophantic media and popular culture, didn't vote for this fucking know-nothing clown. We are the people who actually produce goods and services. We are the people who work our asses off and understands concepts like "risk" and "return". Some of us are the people who have to get up every morning and unlock the doors to our businessbecause failure to do so might mean that 5, 10, 50, or 1,000 people won't have a job. We are the people who have to make payroll every month. We are the people who understand the burden that asinine federal policy can put on the real world via stupid tax and regulatory policy. More than anything, we have a basic understanding that (relatively) free-market capitalism is the economic system that most closely parallels human behavior. Nothing has done more to improve peoples' lives and standard of living.

In short, we're everything Obama is not.

So we called our legislators, and made sure they told Obama to go fuck himself and fuck his nanny-state ideology that caters to the absolute lowest common denominators of society. Until the American electorate has the opportunity to come to its senses after digesting the true content of "hope" and "change", it is indeed the job of my elected representatives to do everything in their power to oppose and undermine this fluke of a detestable piece of shit and his policies. And I and others will hold them accountable until the United States has finally scraped this congressional majority and executive travesty from the bottom of our national shoes.

This is not the moment for politics as usual and cheap theatrics

Which is why it was so important to send a resounding "fuck you" you the people who are willing to turn us into a third world nation in order to secure a voting bloc that will keep them in power.

This is the moment to show unity around the common goal to turn this country away from the precipice they lead us towards.

Again, note the flowery rhetoric and appeals to submission before the Almighty Numinous Negro---as well as the willful ignorance regarding the mechanisms of the rhetorical "precipice" we're apparently teetering upon.

Some of us would like to take some pride in the leadership of this country, but these caricatures make it impossible to do so.

In what way does dissent from the Chocolate Carter's Bolshevik gang-bang preclude you from taking pride in the leadership of your country? That doesn't make any sense. The people of this country aren't going to simply ignore who Obama is and what he's attempting to do. If you feel massive transfers of wealth, anti-business hysterics, "tax cuts" for people who don't pay taxes, over-regulation, and the most massive pay-off to left-wing pet projects in U.S. history are the greatest thing since sliced bread----then by all means make the argument for them. Have confidence in those solutions. Tell us all how they're gonna make everything better. Make your case.

That's going to require you to move beyond simply remarking on the opposition this fucking joke of a president has generated.

Jak

Enjoy te next 8 years. Hussein the Chocolate Carter will prove to be twice the man that pole smoker Bush ever was. Reelection is a cinch, and after that, Hillary won't be too old to run--lots younger than McCain or Reagan. Make that 16 years, and probably more.

Of course, you could start networking with the 57 million who think like you and start your own country---I hear McCain is still available for your Pres. You would have my support.

I wasn't saying that the stimulus bill should get 100% support. That would be weird. But the show of unity that Republicans displayed against it is absolutely ridiculous.
* * * *

Interesting. So when a bill gets 100% Democratic support--umm, that's NOT weird? The "show of unity" displayed for it isn't absolutely ridiculous?

Pot, meet kettle. "Borrow and spend" has, unfortunately, been too much a part of Republicans' way of doing things. But they're still pikers compared to you guys. It's nice some of the Congressional Repubs reached down, grabbed their testicles, and voted for smaller government for the first time in years. And since the bill passed anyhow, what do you care?

Jak, yak, yak, yak

You are a perfect example of what I was talking about.

If the economy grinds to a halt, you and your business are going to go up your butt.

Don't tell me you care about your workers, because you sound like a racist bigot and a low life and I wouldn't buy it. Even if I talk about the stimulus here, it wouldn't go past the racist crap you are choking on.

You don't have to take my word for anything. Just listen to the best economists out there. This is something that Republicans refused to do. They politicized everything and spinned away to justify their power and wealth grab to the expense of everybody else.

If you want to talk about massive transfer of wealth, talk about what happened in the last eight years, which will probably go down in history as downright shameful, and a big step back for America.

Who are you to talk about Anti-business hysterics? This is more idiotic spin, and no less than what is expected of you.

What exactly would you like people to say? Thank you for what you did? Thank you for taking unconscionable risks to get fat bonuses and live the high life because you could, and created a mess so big that now we can't afford to live? And please, continue to do what you did, and don't even let us check on you? Thank you for helping us lose our homes, our medical insurance, our retirements, and our dignity? Thank you for helping America becoming most reviled in the eyes of the world? Don't even let us try to fix that? Please, continue to steal our money and enjoy your life, and we are just going to sit here and die quietly?

Thanks, but no thanks.

I am not sure why these maniacs continue to think they are oh so superior and they deserve everything and the hell with all the other subpar humans who happen to stand in their way.

It is time for Republicans to stop insulting people's intelligence and wishing that the things will continue as they were. It is not going to happen. People are waking up and are demanding to be treated decently.

The joke is on Republicans and on you. It looks like most backwards people are remaining in the Republican camp while decent people are raising their voice everywhere.

Remember November? People voted - people of all colors and from all walks of life. They voted against your principles and failed policies. And by the way, I am white.

So continue your impotent tirade, and don't even try to be decent. You have a right to your opinion like everybody else.

What do I care? Do you realize that the situation is really bad? Did you get the memo?

No measure is going to be enough without a return of confidence, and you guys are doing everything to stop that. You would rather see this country go in the crapper, and unemployment of 25 % just to win back the seats that you rightly lost and do even more damage. Talk about low life.

Don't tell me you care about your workers, because you sound like a racist bigot and a low life and I wouldn't buy it. Even if I talk about the stimulus here, it wouldn't go past the racist crap you are choking on.
* * * *

LMAO. Please don't tell my girlfriend.

Tell ya what--you go ahead and pay attention to all those economists who didn't see this coming, and have been wrong for all these years. I'll do the opposite.

In fact, why not invest your own money, before asking me to invest mine? Oh--and keep the racism charges down, unless you REALLY know who you're talking to. The small handful of people on here who know me personally think you're looking pretty stupid now. But I'll give you credit for one thing: total predictability. If someone doesn't agree with you, he must be a racist. If someone doesn't think the bailout of Wall Street will work, he's un-American. A curious formulation from a leftie, but if all you got is talking points from Maddow and the Obama camp, I guess that's your problem.

Matter of fact, how about a market update, to see what the world's capital markets think of the Obameconomy, 6 months out:

Down 263! Guess what? Your pension, your retirement plan--it's worth 3.6% less right now than it was 6 hours ago. How that for change, Changegirl? You believin?

No measure is going to be enough without a return of confidence, and you guys are doing everything to stop that. You would rather see this country go in the crapper, and unemployment of 25 % just to win back the seats that you rightly lost and do even more damage. Talk about low life.

#56 | Posted by ChangeGirl
* * * *

I vote third party, so I'll never win any seats. So what. Just because I resent having $4 trillion spent--so far--to bail out Wall Street, and I resent spending another 4, you think I'm a low life?

Your voting to raise your children's and your grandchildren's taxes for the rest of their lives, just so the value of your house doesn't go down. And you think I'm a low life?

What a selfish bitch. Keep selling. As long as people like you are running the show--and you are--markets have only one way to go. "Hope" is not a strategy. Using intelligence is. And in Washington, there's an enormous deficit of that.

"Tell ya what--you go ahead and pay attention to all those economists who didn't see this coming, and have been wrong for all these years. I'll do the opposite."

Yeah, you would be the one who, in late 2007, predicted the DOW would rise by at least 15% in 2008. You are the one who touted each 500 point drop of the DOW as a buying opportunity. You were the one who waited until Obama was elected before you started touting short-selling. You are the one who keeps claiming that everybody other than you is stupid, especially economists who disagree with you.
Hey, for once you might be right. There is this saying about a broken clock. I wouldn't bet much on it, though.

""Hope" is not a strategy."

Yeah, let the country hit rock bottom, let social upheaval destroy the country, let millions of people suffer in misery. Because one day it will all (hopefully) change. Great strategy.

"Using intelligence is. And in Washington, there's an enormous deficit of that."

I do remember how often you mentioned that during the 8 years of the previous administration.

Keep selling.

Yeah, you would be the one who, in late 2007, predicted the DOW would rise by at least 15% in 2008. You are the one who touted each 500 point drop of the DOW as a buying opportunity. You were the one who waited until Obama was elected before you started touting short-selling.
* * * *

Not quite. At the beginning of 2008, I did think markets would go up by 15% or more. But when it started to fall apart in August and September, I got everyone out. Then in October, I started to sell short. It wasn't enough to keep me from being down 9%-14% in my accounts across the board, but that's still better than the minus 45% most investors saw. And I'm up 13% YTD, inclusive of today.

My job is to make money in good markets and bad. To do so, you have to be nimble. Obama doesn't know what he's doing, and the markets are responding accordingly. This is the end of a credit cycle, and even if he had a clue, it wouldn't matter. The bubbles are popping, and there's not enough money on earth to inflate them again. So we shouldn't.

"My job is to make money in good markets and bad."

Exactly. You have the perspective of a day trader. That is hugely different from that of an economist. If Obama were to view the economy from the perspective of a day trader, I would view him as a disaster before he did anything. An economist must give huge consideration to ramification and consequences. A day trader can reverse course in a day.

That Obama doesn't know what he is doing is almost beside the point. No one does know, their assurances notwithstanding. Even though there is much I dislike about FDR, he realized that the essence of the Depression was depression - the people's and the economy's. And he tried various things to reverse that. Failed in some, suceeded in more. That, from what I have read, is Obama's strategy. And I expect him to have failures and successes, but I definitely want him to _try_. Doing nothing, because it is required by an economic philosophy is, in my book, the definition of stupidity.

"To do so, you have to be nimble."

What a speedboat can do, a tanker can't. The economy is a tanker, a huge one. Too many people don't understand that.

"Then in October, I started to sell short."

Yet you kept stating, on the DR, that the DOW would climb in 2008, until December. I remember only because I was trying to decide whether to reinvest in the market and it was in such contrast with what I was being told by others that I was curious who would be more right.

BTW, I think ChangeGirl was talking/writing to Jak, not to you. The "Don't tell me you care about your workers,..." definitly points that way. Though I'm sure she thought of what you had posted. Obviously, she can tell me I'm wrong.

Yet you kept stating, on the DR, that the DOW would climb in 2008, until December. I remember only because I was trying to decide whether to reinvest in the market and it was in such contrast with what I was being told by others that I was curious who would be more right.

#62 | Posted by AILtd
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No I didn't. Pull my history and see for yourself.

BTW, I think ChangeGirl was talking/writing to Jak, not to you. The "Don't tell me you care about your workers,..." definitly points that way. Though I'm sure she thought of what you had posted. Obviously, she can tell me I'm wrong.

#63 | Posted by AILtd
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I think you're right.

I owe you an apology Changegirl. The charge of racism really gets me going, given my history. Sorry.

I don't day trade. But all investors have to have a thesis of the market. And mine is this: in August and September the economy reached a point of no return, where the credit system imploded. I believed then, and still do, that the government should do whatever it can to keep the unemployed with a roof over their heads and food on their tables and their lights and heat on. But to send all this money to Wall Street was insane. Better to let it fall apart, and take care of PEOPLE, rather than the bankrupt institutions they once worked for.

Starting in September I went to cash; in October I started selling everyone short via inverse ETF's. And there is no way--zero--you can find a post from me as late as December recommending anyone buy into this market. by then, the die was cast.

"I don't day trade."

Didn't say you did, just that you have their mentality. In contrast with that of an economist who must look at things in a very different way. And that the issue is the economy, not day trading type of activity.

"Better to let it fall apart, and take care of PEOPLE,"

And how do you let the banking system fall apart, let the economy fall apart, and "take care of people" by doing nothing?

"No I didn't. Pull my history and see for yourself."

Is there a way to see the posts of November 2007 without paging through a year? What I know is that I have a Word document, dated from mid November of 2007, where I kept a copy of what different people were saying re 2008. I have a note in there that states that you have indicated (at that time) that 2008 will see a rise of 15+%.

Republican delusionism is not illustrated better anywhere than in California, where a small coterie of dedicated obstructionists keeps the state from a budget, pushes the total collapse of the state infrastructure and generally seems willing to consign the state to the shitter if it will just make the majority Democrats look bad, This - not Gingrich, Limbaugh or Coulter - is the true face of the GOP. herm

So eager to show that government can't and won't work, radical GOPiggies have worked themselves into a position where government's success spells their ruin. Therefore, they are compelled to undermine any solutions involving the use of government. They have become the Party of No at least partly because their ideologically-based fury and frustration compels them to nihilism.

Is there a way to see the posts of November 2007 without paging through a year? What I know is that I have a Word document, dated from mid November of 2007, where I kept a copy of what different people were saying re 2008. I have a note in there that states that you have indicated (at that time) that 2008 will see a rise of 15+%.
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That's what I thought at the time, and I invested accordingly. Come September 08, I was singing a different tune. So what. In November of 2007, I was pretty sure the despised New England Patriots would win the Super Bowl. The people who got on the Titanic in England weren't stupid. The stupid ones were the people who believed that even after it hit the iceberg, it still wouldn't sink.
So here we are. Sinking.

"So here we are. Sinking."

And we can do nothing and let the force of nature take its course. Or we could act and do something. Get in a lifeboat. Find something to serve as a lifeboat. Even jumping in the ocean would be better than going down with the ship.

Of course, we could always be morticians and note how to make money off the sinking and point out that only stupid people wouldn't do likewise.

Whatever. That the ship will sink is inevitable. But the Bushbama plan is to keep the captain at the help, and hope that a few trillion dollars stuffed in the lower holds might postpone the inevitable somewhat. It won't.

You'll see. The libs will never, ever admit that their Obamateur hour is a disaster, that he's throwing good money after bad. But it'll be obvious enough. So you tell me: how much more should we put into Citigroup? and then AIG? BAC? Merrill? GM?

Just asking. Because they'll be back in about 10 days, asking for another $200 billion.

helm.

"That the ship will sink is inevitable. But the Bushbama plan is to keep the captain at the help, and hope that a few trillion dollars stuffed in the lower holds might postpone the inevitable somewhat. It won't."

No, that would be your interpretation. His is that he's trying to do something for the people who were on the boat.

"The libs will never, ever admit that their Obamateur hour is a disaster ..."

If it happens, it won't matter whether they do or don't. However, to say it is inevitable is unbridled hubris and ridiculous. Until then it is a work in progress. And the old saying, if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem, applies.

How much are you willing to put into Citigroup, to keep it solvent?

I say let it go bankrupt. Let the common and preferred shareholders take down with them $2 trillion worth of bad debts. That's my solution. Trillions of dollars of bad debts wiped away at the cost of $18 billion in equity. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Obama's plan is to keep pumping blood into the carcass, no matter how much it costs. That's stupid. Either way, the thing is dead, the value is zero, and anything over zero is a selling opportunity until then.

By the way, how are things going over at AIG? Pretty good?

Except of course that many foreign institutions and gov't are Citigroup bondholders.

If AIG goeds down this might bring down GS. GS have large c/p risk with AIG with CDS

So?

Goldman has sold a lot of CDS's that they will have to pay in the event of AIG's bankruptcy. That's like saying we should let the Federal government pay Allstate's flood claims, because Allstate might have to spend some money.

Citigroup is bankrupt. So is AIG. "Too big to fail" clearly isn't true--they failed. They're bankrupt. And raising hundreds of billions of dollars worth of Treasury paper to stuff in the leaks over there doesn't change that fact. It's over.

"How much are you willing to put into Citigroup, to keep it solvent?"

I think Citigroup should be broken up into its component parts. I think AIG should be allowed to go bankrupt.

Why do you want the banking system to collapse? You do understand that this will cause the collapse of the entire economy, right?

I think we need to shore up the banking system, to restore money movement and money lending. I think in terms of an economy which is great than the sum of its parts. You think in terms of individual companies. That's the difference between thinking like an economist and like a day trader.

I vehemently object to letting everything melt down and hoping for the best from there. And I want my government to make an effort to at least alleviate the situation. I am _not_ interested in sitting on the sidelines chortling over how much I am making during this crisis. I am not interested in stating that the view of Obama and his advisors is wrong because, well, I say so. He got elected to do the job. His ass is on the line, as is that of the Democrat party. The Republicans had their chance and blew it. They don't have the credibility to cry that their way is the _only_ right way. Nor do you.

The really hilarious part is when people state that, if we allow the meltdown, the economy will recover in 16 months, two years tops. But if we do something, anything, it will take 10 years at least. Where is the proof of that? The only similar situation was the Depression of 1929 and it proved otherwise. Of course, then we get the people who obviously have not read about the Depression making all sorts of ridiculous claims. One peron writes a column and it is now the "official version re the Depression". One book comes out, indicating that the Depression lasted 15 years but that WWII ended it, and suddenly all the mainstream belief is wrong. Does point out the failings of our educational system.

Letting Citigroup and AIG and Goldman and the others collapse is not the same as letting the banking system collapse, any more than Circuit City's bankruptcy means the end of the retail sector. You allow them to go bankrupt, then engineer a takeover of Citi branches and loans by healthy banks. Regions is taken over by Compass; BOA's respective divisions are assumed by companies that aren't over-levered, and so on. You can do all this fairly orderly. So why aren't we?

I don't care about the Republicans' credibility, or that of the Dems. Who cares. So far, they've both been stupid, though the Congressional Republicans less so. We're $4 trillion into this thing, and it keeps getting worse, and your prescription is for more of the same. Maybe doing things my way we'll be out in two years, or five. But doing things the way we are will guarantee severe deflation for the next two or three years--which we would have anyhow--followed by an annihilation of the US dollar as the megatrillions of dollars Obama is throwing at this problem finally comes home to roost.

Keep selling. The idea that Hoover sat still and did nothing is the most ignorant of all. He tried everything, and so did FDR, and we went nowhere.

We'll see who's right.

That's the difference between thinking like an economist and like a day trader.
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I do think like an economist. But in this market, when buy-and-hold is dead and rotting in the grave, what do you want to do? How are your mutual funds doing? Your 401k--those are run by economists, guys who don't "day-trade"--but are paid millions of dollars basically to sell their mutual funds, pick a couple of dozen stocks, and pray. At least my clients get something for their management fees.

But we've wasted enough time with each other. You do things your way, and I'll do them mine. I'll react to what Washington does--as my job description insists that I do--and that leads to only one thing. Keep selling.

"Letting Citigroup and AIG and Goldman and the others collapse is not the same as letting the banking system collapse, any more than Circuit City's bankruptcy means the end of the retail sector."

Jesus H. Christ..THANK GOD someone else is saying it. I'm sick of the stupid hysteria regarding bankruptcy. Let the bastards fall. Someone is sure to fill the vacuum before you know there was one. This is America. We're not going to sit at home feeling sorry for ourselves because we lost the corporate logo on our business card. They'll be a new one. The people who made good decisions will smell opportunity galore, and they deserve a fair chance to seize it. Not this protectionist crap. Too big to fail = too big. Trees become grass, which turns to shrub, which turns to trees, etc. etc. It is the natural way of things. Resisting it just makes you look like a scared, conservative (in the traditional sense) retard.

ChangeGirl: Don't let yourself be bullied by arrogant, self righteous ding dongs like RIR. He may or not be racist, but that is beside the point. The real point is that he has a HIGHLY inflated ego and belief in his own investment acumen not supported by reality. Ask him how much money he has lost in the last six months? I'd be richly surprised if you got an honest answer. More likely he will try and turn the post around to attack the attacker.

Last six months, up $3.2 million. Trailing 12, down
$4.3.

Keep selling.

Perhaps RIR was smart enough to buy gold.

Nope. Short ETF's. More liquidity, bigger moves on the down days, and I don't have to pay a 12% commission to trade it.

"Starting in September I went to cash; in October I started selling everyone short via inverse ETF's." - RiR

I didn't get a chance to commend you on your astute and incisive strategy. After all, on August 29, 2007, the Dow stood at 13,289. On November 30, 2007, the Dow was at 13,371. It meandured through the 13,000s during that period. Even reached a high of 14,164 on October 9, 2007. So anyone could make money buying stock. It takes very precise decisions re chosing stocks which will be tanking to be effective doing short-sales. I'm sure your company gave you a large bonus for that.

"The idea that Hoover sat still and did nothing is the most ignorant of all. He tried everything," - RiR

As the economy quickly deteriorated in the early years of the Great Depression, Hoover declined to pursue legislative relief. Instead, he organized a number of voluntary measures with businesses, encouraged state and local government responses, and accelerated federal building projects. Only toward the end of his term did he support a series of legislative solutions.

Pushing voluntary measures is, in my book, doing nothing. Only ignorant people believe otherwise.

RIR,

I am not a trader, but I would be afraid to do what you do. Don't you need to have some long short strategy? Can a strong bear market rally wipe a lot of your gains out? I think a lot of people are itching and hoping for one.