versus:

Mercury isn't in our vaccines anymore, and thiomersal at the concentrations present in vaccines has not been proven harmful. Methylmercury, used as a standard in in vitro tests, is not comparable in its effects to ethylmercury, the organomercury species that is produced by thiomersal. If you want to bark up this tree, go to the primary sources and their reviews.

Thiomersal is in vaccines used outside of the united states, though, so this does remain a pertinent issue. It's just that there is no evidence that the thiomersal concentrations present in vaccines are capable of causing harm. I'm not debating the fact that mercury is toxic as hell, and that thiomersal is too. It's just that you are talking about such tiny concentrations and intermittent exposures that the effects are negligible. Thiomersal is being phased out overseas as well, simply as a precaution.

If you're concerned about mercury exposure, which we all indeed should be, focus on maternal exposure in the diet during gestation, or exposure to environmental sources of mercury from coal-burining power plants. Those sources are far more significant.

If you're concerned about mercury exposure, which we all indeed should be, focus on maternal exposure in the diet during gestation, or exposure to environmental sources of mercury from coal-burining power plants. Those sources are far more significant.
#4 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-02-01 03:02 AM

Of course I'm concerned. The protective coating on the inside of vaccine vials still has mercury ions, from what I understand. There are all kinds of pollutants in the combo vaccines.

I trust the AMA as much as I trust the FDA.

Unless you want small pox and polio to come back vaccinate

I'm old enough that it was mandatory to get smallpox vaccinations before you could enter school. I still have the scar on my arm. In fact, my grandfather gave me mine.

We used to get polio vaccine via a sugarcube once a year at school, too. I remember that well.

Unless you want small pox and polio to come back vaccinate
#7 | Posted by rastaninja at 2009-02-01 03:51 AM

Check this strangeness out:

Currently, parents are expected to grant authorities permission to toxify their children's pure and sacred little bodies with more than 30 blends of rare germs, bacteria, and other foul substances -- all before they enter school!

Our immune system has evolved a very effective way of educating itself by exposure to toxins and pathogens. If we don't "toxify" our bodies by exposing them to weakened or dead versions of pathogens, mother nature will do it with the real thing- and those bugs haven't been manipulated so that they won't cause disease. The germs aren't rare, they're ubiquitous. Infection is inevitable.

Vertebrates have evolved an adaptive immune system that allows them to mount a response to a pathogen that has previously caused infection. This protection still requires that you survive the initial infection. Vaccination is a way of providing immunity to a pathogen that a person will inevitably be exposed to, and it does this without causing the disease associated with a full-blown infection. Objections to vaccination are based on a poor understanding of how our own immune systems function.

You should read a little history as well. Before vaccinations, parents would have "pox parties" to expose and immunize their children to germs that they would inevitably encounter in life. People would grind up smallpox scabs and snort them because variola virus has a 1% mortality rate if introduced into the body in this manner. Normally, it has a 30% mortality rate. After infection, though, immunity is lifelong. What a step backward the smallpox vaccine was! Do you realize that measles is one of the leading causes of death in children- the unvaccinated ones that is? It also can cause terrible birth defects if the mother is infected during pregnancy. We've been stimulating our adaptive immune systems for ages. Our current practices are just safer and more effective.

Some people seem to have forgotten that. I suggest that they all be moved to camps in the Aleutian islands where they can be ravaged by measles, whooping cough, diptheria, and whatever other childhood scourges people refuse to be immunized against. Whatever genes that contributed to their irrationality will be purged from the population by mother nature's cold hand.

A distinction must therefore be made: breastfed babies are immunized;(126-128) children who are injected with germs and other toxic substances are vaccinated.

The immunity afforded by maternal antibodies in breastmilk lasts only as long as a child is breast-fed. It's passive immunity. I'm not saying that breastfeeding is a bad practice- we evolved to do it after all. We also evolved an adaptive immune system that is capable of "remembering" a pathogen long after it has been destroyed. After weaning, exposure to a pathogen is necessary to elicit an adaptive immune response and provide long-lasting immunity or resistance.

Calling the shots "preventive medicine" is deceptive as well. According to Dr. Kenneth Cooper, pioneering author of Aerobics, "My concept of preventive medicine is trying to prevent the things that kill us. Infectious disease is way down the list.

Dr. Cooper is a fool in that respect. Infectious disease is the leading cause of death in the developing world, and it is gaining on chronic diseases in the developed world. With the advent of antibiotics and vaccination, people lived longer and stopped dying of infections- so they died of heart disease, stroke, and cancer. The bugs are adapting, and we're seeing a shift back to infectious disease as the leading cause of death in the developed world again. Dr. Cooper is a big proponent of cardiovascular fitness and healthy living. That's all well and good, and it will delay the onset of chronic disease, but that does not mean that infectious disease is not a resurgent threat to the species.

The polio vaccine-HIV link has been disproven by analysis of SIV and HIV genomes. You won't be able to read the full article unless you have a subscription to Nature, but the abstract gives you the gist.

Sorry, I was breast fed,got the measles,rubella and chicken pox that still comes back to remind me because I get a recurance of shingles on my forehead once a year.knew friends who had polio too.I'm only fiftyone, wasn't that long ago.Shingles is great fun.

Oorah,
thanks I guess,I am doing better than Gilda, you must be as old as I to know her

Sorry, I was breast fed,got the measles,rubella and chicken pox that still comes back to remind me because I get a recurance of shingles on my forehead once

But were you being breast fed while you got measles, rubella, or chicken pox? That's the only time when it has the ability to protect you. My grandpa had polio- he wasn't in an iron lung or anything, but he did have nerve damage.

ZH,
no I wasn't being breast fed then, I had five brothers and sisters and in those days we were all put in abed together so my folks could get it all over at once,still pretty serious shit though.Glad my kids didn't have to go through it though

we were all put in abed together so my folks could get it all over at once, still pretty serious shit though

Yep. Nasty diseases. Measles is even worse if the mother gets it while pregnant- leading cause of birth defects. Those damn vaccines...

I swear, people can be so ridiculous. Refusing vaccination, as I've said before, is tantamount to child abuse.

All the best skits. It was a trip down memory lane, though I've somewhat gotten away from it over the past 20 years.

SNL has taken a turn for the worse. They used to be brilliant, and of course they were well on the road to mediocrity by the time I was old enough to appreciate them. They do still put together some good stuff from time to time.

If I was being breast fed now I guess I'd live forever (better than an HMO)

ZH
hope you don't think I was refuting vaccines, Quite the opposite

hope you don't think I was refuting vaccines, Quite the opposite

Oh no way, I understood what you meant. I had mentioned the exact same thing earlier, and I wanted to make sure that it was perfectly clear for future readers based on the example you provided. I didn't mean to come across confrontational or anything. I'm still salty about how JnD, RedLightRobot, and a few others have been swearing up and down how vaccines are the devil, when there is a good chance a few of them may not be here if it weren't for those very same vaccines.

"Of course I'm concerned. The protective coating on the inside of vaccine vials still has mercury ions, from what I understand. There are all kinds of pollutants in the combo vaccines."

link?

Wherever they get their info from, it's not peer-reviewed epidemiological studies or clinical research. It's some den of crackpots in a cobweb-infested corner of the internet.

Yeah I know, which is why I wanted to see it. Figured at the very least it would be a source of amusement.

You can inject your children with that poison if you want. My children aren't taking the shots.

More Families Are Shunning Inoculations

Sorry, I guess you would consider that link a cobweb corner of the internet, but I just couldn't find a government website that supported my position.
I know you have become conditioned like Pavlov's dog to only except the party line and I hate to be the one to poke holes in your comfort bubble. But guess what? Your government is lying to you all the time. About everything. The big lie war. The chem trails. The vaccines. Fluoride in the water is good for you, The war on drugs. Obama, the 2 party system. It's one big side show lie. and maybe if you aren't to far gone, you might wake up and stop being mindless robots that believe everything the tv tells you.

wake up and stop being mindless robots that believe everything the tv tells you

LOL

Take that sentence, substitute TV with 'conspiracy web sites' and that statement applies to li'l jeffy.

BTW, I don't watch TV, so I guess that makes me more objective, and I think you're a crackpot.

Hehehe!
If you care to look at Goatmans comments. most of them are him following me around and harassing me. And then he calls me a crack pot.
Any website not from a commercial news source or the government is a conspiracy website to you.
Hahah...

Here you go Goatman,
People way smarter than you or me.

About building 7,

Kamal S. Obeid, structural engineer, with a masters degree in Engineering from UC Berkeley, of Fremont, California, says: "Photos of the steel, evidence about how the buildings collapsed, the unexplainable collapse of WTC 7, evidence of thermite in the debris as well as several other red flags, are quite troubling indications of well planned and controlled demolition"

Ronald H. Brookman, structural engineer, with a masters degree in Engineering from UC Davis, of Novato California, writes: "Why would all 110 stories drop straight down to the ground in about 10 seconds, pulverizing the contents into dust and ash - twice. Why would all 47 stories of WTC 7 fall straight down to the ground in about seven seconds the same day? It was not struck by any aircraft or engulfed in any fire. An independent investigation is justified for all three collapses including the surviving steel samples and the composition of the dust."

Graham John Inman, structural engineer, of London, England, points out: "WTC 7 Building could not have collapsed as a result of internal fire and external debris. NO plane hit this building. This is the only case of a steel frame building collapsing through fire in the world. The fire on this building was small & localized therefore what is the cause?"

Paul W. Mason, structural engineer, of Melbourne, Australia, argues: "In my view, the chances of the three buildings collapsing symmetrically into their own footprint, at freefall speed, by any other means than by controlled demolition, are so remote that there is no other plausible explanation!"

"In my opinion WTC7 was with the utmost probability brought down by controlled demolition done by experts" -Hugo Bachmann, Professor emeritus for structural analysis and construction at ETH and former Chairman of the Department of Structural Dynamics and Earthquake Engineering, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.

You can inject your children with that poison if you want. My children aren't taking the shots.

I sincerely hope that they do not end up in the hospital because of your negligence, but know that you are risking the lives of your children based on ignorance, gullibility, and faith in pseudoscience. It is your choice to believe the ravings of these snake oil salesmen, but your children should not have to pay the price.

When enough people with your same mindset congregate in one area, outbreaks of entirely preventable diseases can sustain themselves when this was previously impossible. Your crackpot notion of poisoned vaccines is a threat to public health. If you think the Illuminati are trying to depopulate the world, consider the possibility that they might have started the rumors regarding vaccines to discourage the feeble minded unfit for reproduction from protecting themselves against pathogens.

It's some den of crackpots in a cobweb-infested corner of the internet.

#28 | Posted by ZombieHunter

You guys can argue over who did what first or who is the charlatan all you want, but one fact still remains.

Millions of children world-wide (mostly in america and mostly boys) have autism. There was a 'normal amount' of children born with autism for as long as science has known how to find it. Then all of the sudden the amount spiked. Then when Thimiserol was removed, the numbers went back down. Any reasonable person would conclude that thimiserol caused it or contributed to it.

I have 2 austistic boys (twins) living in my house. I married their mother. One has severe full spectrum autism and the other has Aspergers syndrome (a milder form). These 2 boys have been tested up and down, even DNA testing. The doctor that tests them, at Vanderbilt Univ. is the same doctor that discovered that everyone has the 'Autism' gene, but it is not 'turned on'. Something started turning it on. There are lot's theories but there is no hard science to prove either way. I personally believe, from conversations with doctors, that they also think the vaccinations caused them.

So here is what has happened. There was a special masters court set up to handle all of the law-suits. There was a super-fund of money set aside where the government could pay out a pre-defined amount of money to the children without the necessity of the gov. or the drug companies having to accept responsibility or admit guilt. This special class-action lawsuit was set-up to keep each individual from suing the government individually.

So all of the claimants in the class action lawsuit have to agree that they will not sue the US gov't afterwards. Many parents of autistic children are not in the special masters court and are suing the drug companies anyway.

I believe when it is all said and done, after new methods of immunization are developed, the truth will come out and that truth is this; They knew that the thimiserol preservative would cause a certain number of children to develop autism but they weighed that against the fact that the addition would allow billions more to be vaccinated, thus saving millions of lives. They were surprised when the Autism numbers were as high as they were. Since Autism is a developmental disorder, it doesn't show up for several years, the actions of removing Thimiserol from the vaccines took several years to show up in the system.

Here's somehting else to think about while you are thinking about that. My wife has video of her boys (especially one of them) walking, talking, laughing and engaging socially with people. One month later, after the last immun. (which made both of them very sick and made their brains swell), the smaller boy was a empty face, he still walked, but he never said another word, he has zero social skills, he is 12 years old now and learning to tie his shoes is too complicated for him to ever learn.

No one should refrain from having their child vaccinated. The thimiserol has been removed from the vaccines.

I always wondered why, if thimiserol it didn't cause the problem, why they removed it?

If I had young children now, I would still have them vaccinated, even knowing what i know now.

Millions of children world-wide (mostly in america and mostly boys) have autism. There was a 'normal amount' of children born with autism for as long as science has known how to find it. Then all of the sudden the amount spiked. Then when Thimiserol was removed, the numbers went back down. Any reasonable person would conclude that thimiserol caused it or contributed to it.

Correlation does not imply causation.

I believe when it is all said and done, after new methods of immunization are developed, the truth will come out and that truth is this; They knew that the thimiserol preservative would cause a certain number of children to develop autism but they weighed that against the fact that the addition would allow billions more to be vaccinated, thus saving millions of lives. They were surprised when the Autism numbers were as high as they were. Since Autism is a developmental disorder, it doesn't show up for several years, the actions of removing Thimiserol from the vaccines took several years to show up in the system.

The chance that thiomersal was indeed the causitave agent in the spike in autism cases is extremely remote, but you are entirely correct. Even if it was behind the increase in the incidence of autism, the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the risks. No conspiracy or malevolence necessary.

Correlation does not imply causation.

#38 | Posted by ZombieHunter

No corrolary is absolute. If you smash you thumb with a hammer and it starts throbbing, there is a pretty strong evidence that the hammer blow caused the throbbing even though you may not be able to establish a correlation.

But the point I was making is that in civil courts you don't have to prove absolute corrolation.

Most people I know (who have autistic children) would be happy to go their own way, and take the pain, if the drug companies would just admit that they have evidence that thimiserol caused the autism. But since the government and the drug companies want to try to keep people from seeking vaccinations, they cannot admit it. It's a no-win situation. they think people will lose faith in corporations and government but that has already been lost.

The parents of autistic children, based on these refusals and misinformation champaigns, are ready to nail the government and the drug companies to the wall and skin them. I hope they succeed.

Parents who don't vaccinate their kids should be locked up. Its not just their kids at risk. Let's say parents because of some silly fear or dumb opinion of western medicine don't get their kid vaccinated, then let's say there is another family where the parents are vaccinating their kids but they're not at the age yet to receive a certain vaccination. If those kids are in contact with each other and the first gets a perfectly preventable disease, he can quickly pass it to the other and get him really sick or even kill him.

Many pediatricians won't bring you into their practice now if you don't get the vaccine shots and I think that's a great thing. Daycares too.

The Childrens Hospital of Pennsylvania and Boston Childrens are typically ranked the top two childrens hospitals in the country. If they say there is no link, its a pretty safe bet there is no link. Get your freaking kids vaccinated.

On the vaccination-autism link, I will suggest this: We have a much much larger number of food allergies than we used to, too, but there could be any number of reasons for that:

1. There's greater recognition and understanding of the causes.

2. Monocultural agriculture has messed with our bodies.

3. There's more reportage.

4. People are less willing to live with chronic bronchial and skin disorders. (See #1.)

That's just off the top of my head. Could not the autism increase be for some set of similar reasons, or have those reasons as part of the increase? (I honestly don't know; I'm just asking.)

Some of what is identified as Asperger's or "the low end of the spectrum" (and from what I know calling Asperger's "a form of autism" is hardly something the medical community or the folks living with it agree on) would have been what we called "freaky behavior" years ago. That's half a a joke, yes. But my point is, Is there a provable increase in cases, or an increase in _identified_ cases? Did Asperger's even exist by name thirty years ago? (I honestly don't know.) So the waters are even muddier than they the causation/correlation argument.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about lead paint. Heh.

"if the drug companies would just admit that they have evidence that thimiserol caused the autism. But since the government and the drug companies want to try to keep people from seeking vaccinations, they cannot admit it."

Or they won't admit it because there is NO good evidence that thimerisal causes autism. In fact, the evidence points to the exact opposite conclusion: thimerisal does NOT cause neurological damage.

"The parents of autistic children, based on these refusals and misinformation champaigns, are ready to nail the government and the drug companies to the wall and skin them."

Someone has to be blamed, right? Unfortunately natural "medicine" snake oil salesmen have taken advantage of this tendency and have made vaccines into the boogyman so that they can sell their herbal "supplements" and chelation therapies. What they don't tell you is that as their claims are systematically destroyed by science, they shift the goalposts and continue demonizing a medical practice that one could argue is amongst the greatest discoveries in human history.

"I hope they succeed."

You'll regret it if they do and we begin to see vaccination rates drop and the re-emergence of once bygone diseases.

"Some of what is identified as Asperger's or "the low end of the spectrum" (and from what I know calling Asperger's "a form of autism" is hardly something the medical community or the folks living with it agree on) would have been what we called "freaky behavior" years ago."

This is absolutely correct.

I've talked to my mother about this fact on many occasions (she's a special ed teacher who works for the state ed department). The definition of Autism and our diagnostic abilities have increased. She says many of the people who are now diagnosed as autistic would have in the past been diagnosed as simply mentally retarded. I don't know if there are any retrospective studies to reassess past diagnoses or if a study of this type could be properly conducted, but I'd be highly interested in seeing the results.

"You'll regret it if they do and we begin to see vaccination rates drop and the re-emergence of once bygone diseases.

#43 | Posted by jpw "

Maybe they figure one of our best presdients had Polio so son of a bitch, how bad can it be?

as a child in the 50's, polio was a very real threat to us, there was an iron lung on every block, my brothers sweetheart was in an iron lung, the clanking sound of metal braces occurred in every classroom. Seeing an iron lung is very disturbing. We all marched in the "March of Dimes". One brother died and I almost died. Anyone seeing the damage of this and other diseases would not want to go back.

a lot of people prayed in those days, but all in vain, it was Jonas Salk that saved the day.

It is scary as a parent to try to sort through all the information from both sides of the debate. I think I read last summer a woman won her case regarding her son who it was proven became autistic after ingesting Thimerosal.

My wife and I still inoculate our kids but I do read each and every vaccine to ensure it does not have thimerisol or any mercury suspension alloy. They are out there but physicians do not like to stock them because they have a shorter shelf life.

a lot of people prayed in those days, but all in vain, it was Jonas Salk that saved the day.

Except polio rates were significantly dropping prior to Salk's vaccine due to suspension of DDT as a pesticide.

JPW, this is of course good and bad. Bad because it skews discussions such as this one (or more serious versions of same). Good because more accurate identification can lead to better treatment/plans of action. Now let's argue about the inclusion model in public education.

The so-called scientists who did the study had an agenda to make kids fall in line like sheep for the vaccines. They made the study come out like they wanted. They are probably the same group that says that global warming and evolution are real.

Here's somehting else to think about while you are thinking about that. My wife has video of her boys (especially one of them) walking, talking, laughing and engaging socially with people. One month later, after the last immun. (which made both of them very sick and made their brains swell), the smaller boy was a empty face, he still walked, but he never said another word, he has zero social skills, he is 12 years old now and learning to tie his shoes is too complicated for him to ever learn.
posted by Lipzoidial

I don't remember the details of the vaccination off the top of my head as this was some time ago and they're not my kids. Both kids have gotten a lot better due to the mothers constant work in teaching/interacting with them, but both are still far far from being "normal". They're also both on gluten free diets which the mother said seemed to make the largest impact on their progression. Not sure how legit that is but hey if she says she noticed the biggest difference from the diet change I'll take her word for it, she is the mother after all.

It's funny to see all the people on here saying to treat parents like criminals for not vaccinating their kids. If any of these people had any personal experience with the situation they may feel different. Who knows, just my personal experience with it and some food for thought.

The so-called scientists who did the study had an agenda to make kids fall in line like sheep for the vaccines. They made the study come out like they wanted. They are probably the same group that says that global warming and evolution are real.
posted by FWThom

"Except polio rates were significantly dropping prior to Salk's vaccine due to suspension of DDT as a pesticide."

I should know better, but do you have a link to back up this statement?

"Bad because it skews discussions such as this one (or more serious versions of same). Good because more accurate identification can lead to better treatment/plans of action. "

I completely agree, although I think the skewing of the discussion in this case is done purposefully by those with either an agenda against the pharmaceutical industry or something to sell and would have happened regardless of the label.

"Now let's argue about the inclusion model in public education."

No thanks. I'm far from an expert on education and only have to offer my humble lowly opinions.

I should know better, but do you have a link to back up this statement?

Type "Morton Biskind" into google. You can read numerous studies he conducted in the 40s-50s linking DDT and polio.

I completely agree, although I think the skewing of the discussion in this case is done purposefully by those with either an agenda against the pharmaceutical industry or something to sell and would have happened regardless of the label.

If that is important to you, then you must consider that every dime that the author of this study has made has either directly or indirectly come from shooting your child up with vaccines.

"It is scary as a parent to try to sort through all the information from both sides of the debate."

I apologize for the arrogance of what I'm about to say, but I stand by it.

The vast majority of parents CAN NOT affectively sort through the information in this debate. Most don't have the basic knowledge of biology to even begin to understand the principles behind vaccines and why they're given. They don't have the background knowledge of the workings of the immune system and microbiology to understand the complex interactions that take place and how vaccines mimic these to our benefit. They don't have the basic knowledge in chemistry to understand why a mercury-containing compound is NOT the same as elemental mercury and why claims of mercury in vaccines is inherently flawed. I can go on and on on where your average parent is deficient in information and understanding and why it prevents them from truly understanding the debate (a debate that, just like evolution, is practically non-existent amongst scientists).

Unfortunately, this combination of fear and ignorance has been taken advantage of by quacks and snake oil salesmen who are trying to sell books or unapproved "natural" and chelation therapies to parents with autistic children. The debate largely exists because of these people and is not likely to end so long as they have a product to sell.

"Type "Morton Biskind" into google. You can read numerous studies he conducted in the 40s-50s linking DDT and polio."

So you're basing this on a few studies conducted in the 40's and 50's? It's even more amusing than I expected.

How then do you explain the fact that the poliovirus eradication project has been highly successful and has limited poliomyelitis to remote areas that have not had high vaccination rates? Or the fact that in areas with high vaccination rates, the viral isolates are vaccine derived and were acquired due to shedding of the virus by vaccinated individuals? Or have they only started banning DDT in these areas?

So you're basing this on a few studies conducted in the 40's and 50's? It's even more amusing than I expected.

How then do you explain the fact that the poliovirus eradication project has been highly successful and has limited poliomyelitis to remote areas that have not had high vaccination rates? Or the fact that in areas with high vaccination rates, the viral isolates are vaccine derived and were acquired due to shedding of the virus by vaccinated individuals? Or have they only started banning DDT in these areas?

In the midst of your amusement, perhaps you could explain how the polio infection rate was halved in the three years before the vaccine ever existed?

FWTHOM seems proud of his ignorance, what he needs is a time machine to take him back to his home turf, the Dark Ages!

and I think you're a crackpot.

Goatman:
Don't be surprised if this guy ends up on the slab from a Vince Foster style suicide.

Yep. 100% Crackpot.

FWIW, both of my sons have had their vaccinations, and I'm proud of it. Neither of them had ill effect besides a slight fever that lasted less than 12 hours.

Based on the wealth of assumptions made about the harm these vaccinations caused, which is based solely on the timing of the onset of symptoms, can I make the blanket assessment that vaccinations are completely safe since my boys haven't exhibited any ill effect?

Those jumping to conclusions based on the timing of the onset of autism surely would grant my experiences just as much weight?

As a matter of fact, I'll start a blog with a slew of stories extolling the miracle of vaccinations and fill it with nothing but my own personal stories, since the other side of the argument rarely presents anything but the same.

Totally. Meaningless.

As a matter of fact, I'll start a blog with a slew of stories extolling the miracle of vaccinations and fill it with nothing but my own personal stories, since the other side of the argument rarely presents anything but the same.

Totally. Meaningless.

I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps we could get an independent study looking at this someday before pigs flying. And no, exhaustive research by "Dr. Vaccine M.D." is not what I had in mind.

My mom took the flu shot for the first time in her life when she was 77. A year later she was diognosed with Alzheimers, and lived another 11 years slowly deteriorating into a fantasy world of nightmare and fear. Her dad lived to be 98, and was perfectly healthy up until the end.
My mom also drank a lot of diet soda with aspartame in it.

Plus the shot made her sick with the flu.

The Amish and Mennonites don't vaccinate and they have "no" autism in their communities.

It's no surprise that alternative health crackpots are frequently conspiracy crackpots in other areas, as Jeffndenmark proves.

The Amish and Mennonites don't vaccinate and they have "no" autism in their communities.

1) How do you know?
2) Even if true, how do you know it's from lack of vaccines?

I remember reading an article that maintained that children are at risk of autism when they get vaccines before the age of two. It takes that long for the blood-brain barrier to form. The brain has no protection from toxins till then.

Flu vaccines are a racket. The drug companies have to guess at what strains will be active and there is always the risk of unwanted side reactions. Much cheaper and completely safe is vitamin D in doses up to 5,000 units a day. Studies have shown that it is our body's depletion of vitamin D reserves during the winter months that make us susceptible to colds and flu. Vitamin D plays an active part of our immune system among other things. I haven't had a cold in two years since I've been taking it. Avoiding junk food helps a lot too. Germs love junk food.

The so-called scientists who did the study had an agenda to make kids fall in line like sheep for the vaccines. They made the study come out like they wanted. They are probably the same group that says that global warming and evolution are real.

Posted by FWTHOM at 2009-02-02 07:22 PM | Reply | Flag: How's the lobotomy working out for you?

You can read numerous studies he conducted in the 40s-50s linking DDT and polio.

Why is it the same usual people attack me, calling me names, and never post any web-links to refute what I say?
Do they feel threatened by my posts, to the point of becoming irrational?
It doesn't really matter, when they resort to name calling, they only discredit themselves.
Maybe I do believe in social Darwinism. Because the people that are to stupid to do the research, and blindly go along with whatever, they will be the same people dying an early death from their own ignorance.
Then there will be fewer stupid people in the world.

On the vaccination-autism link, I will suggest this: We have a much much larger number of food allergies than we used to, too, but there could be any number of reasons for that:

1. There's greater recognition and understanding of the causes.

2. Monocultural agriculture has messed with our bodies.

3. There's more reportage.

4. People are less willing to live with chronic bronchial and skin disorders. (See #1.)

That's just off the top of my head. Could not the autism increase be for some set of similar reasons, or have those reasons as part of the increase? (I honestly don't know; I'm just asking.)

The increase in allergies and diseases resulting from hypersensitivity are an excellent example. There are some well-substantiated hypotheses out there that the overuse of sanitizers deprives developing children of the exposure to bacteria that were present during millions of years of our evolution. The anti-vaxers whine about exposure to "toxins" but they forget that as a species, we evolved to thrive in a "toxic" environment. Remove this exposure, and the immune system begins to recognize non-pathogenic things like pollen and subsequent exposures elicit an inflammatory response. Allergies.

Food allergies are a little different. A lot of studies suggest that early exposure to foods with a high potential to cause a reaction creates hypersensitivity. Infants don't need to be eating nuts and shellfish.

No one knows what causes autism. Those who pin it on vaccines are looking for an easy target for their understandable fears.

never post any web-links to refute what I say?

li'l jeffy, I can't believe you ask that! I post links all the time. I posted one yesterday that you rebutted, "that doesn't prove anything". I posted a link to the NIST report and your reply was, "I don't need to read it. I know it's wrong".

Cut the bullshit, li'l jeffy. If you can't even be honest with yourself, at least stop whining that people never post web-links to refute you. What a disingenuous person you are.

BTW, I don't need a web link to tell me that there are hundreds of millions of people who have taken vaccines and are sans autism. If you need such a link, you need to take off your blinders and take a look at the real world, not the one that Alex Jones feeds you.

It doesn't really matter, when they resort to name calling, they only discredit themselves.

You mean like the dozens of times you have called me 'goatfuck'? (to name one) That kind of name-calling? LOL

Most people I know (who have autistic children) would be happy to go their own way, and take the pain, if the drug companies would just admit that they have evidence that thimiserol caused the autism. But since the government and the drug companies want to try to keep people from seeking vaccinations, they cannot admit it. It's a no-win situation. they think people will lose faith in corporations and government but that has already been lost.

The existence of this evidence is a myth. The two crusaders of the anti-vaxer movement are Geier and Wakefield. Their research was fundamentally flawed, and Wakefield failed to declare that he had competing financial interests- the people funding his research stood to gain if the safety of the MMR vaccine was impeached. People who cannot critically evaluate scientific research just take others at their word, and sometimes are all too willing to embrace a rumor because it provides an easy target to blame for a tragic and stressful situation.

The only payout in the vaccine lawsuits that I am aware of involved an autistic kid who also had a mitrochondrial disorder that was aggravated by immune stimulation. No mention of thiomersal or any link between the vaccine and autism.

No one knows what causes autism. Those who pin it on vaccines are looking for an easy target for their understandable fears.

#72 | Posted by ZombieHunter

Not specifically, but I suspect it has something to do in part with the poor quality of the American diet. Because the brain is a fatty organ, I would be suspicious about the overconsumption of refined oils and the common lack of consumption of fish oils.

Not specifically, but I suspect it has something to do in part with the poor quality of the American diet. Because the brain is a fatty organ, I would be suspicious about the overconsumption of refined oils and the common lack of consumption of fish oils.

That likely plays a role in a lot of neurological and psychiatric disorders. I should go check out the literature, I know it's been a hot topic recently but I don't know about its use in many conditions beyond bipolar. The omega 3 : omega 6 ratio of the American diet is skewed heavily in favor of omega 6 fatty acids, unlike the balance that was most likely present in the diet of our evolutionary ancestors. Omega 3 supplements improve outcomes in a variety of conditions. If you have a bipolar spectrum disorder, for example, consuming a more natural balance of fats can improve the effectiveness of mood stabilizers, and in a few isolated cases, has brought about remission on its own. Doesn't help with the mood stabilizers' side effects, though.

Strangely enough, though, fish oil can sometimes have high levels of mercury in it depending on its source. Contamination of our waterways by coal-fired power plants is "toxifying" one of humanity's healthiest food sources- fish.

" Contamination of our waterways by coal-fired power plants is "toxifying" one of humanity's healthiest food sources- fish."

Clearly we need to deregulate.

"The only payout in the vaccine lawsuits that I am aware of involved an autistic kid who also had a mitrochondrial disorder that was aggravated by immune stimulation. No mention of thiomersal or any link between the vaccine and autism."

If you're referring to the recent settlement, the little girl wasn't autistic. She had an undiagnosed mitochondrial disorder that MAY have been aggravated by the vaccines and ended up having autism-like symptoms.

Jeff,
The angelfire link you posted is rife with the same shortcomings I noted above. The rest is semantics and word games posing as serious flaws or risks in getting/administering influenza vaccines.

"Plus the shot made her sick with the flu."
No, it didn't. From your very own link:

"Moreover, the majority of illnesses characterized by fever, fatigue, cough and aching muscles are not caused by the influenza virus..."

Unless of course you, and I mean YOU, not some quack link, can explain to me how an intramuscular injection of deactivated influenza viruses can cause respiratory tract symptoms. My bet, though, is that you're using "flu" in an utterly generic way to mean any seasonal illness between September and March and are ignorant as to the number of pathogens that can cause flu-like illnesses.

As a rule of thumb, Jeff, if someone makes a point of calling themselves Dr. and has their own website, don't believe a word they're saying as they are just trying to sell you shit. Both the docs from your angelfire link have their own websites. Both are nothing more than advertisements for their books and supplements.

As a rule of thumb, Jeff, if someone makes a point of calling themselves Dr. and has their own website, don't believe a word they're saying...

I'm also very wary of any site that has the word "truth" in it, because their content is usually anything but.

Mercola is a notorious quack, which means he fits right in with the likes of Prisonplanet, Alex Jones, Rense, etc.

These are the people you believe over anonymous scientists/MDs who toil away day after day and don't expect recognition for their work or attempt to sell you some product while throwing their title in your face?

Including Dr. Paul Offit, who doesn't have any books to sell or a dollar to make off vaccinations, of course...

Dr. Offit doesn't have a personal website.

'The Amish and Mennonites don't vaccinate and they have "no" autism in their communities.'
I knew an Amish family some years back, we called them "Conchies" as they were concientious objecters to war. Their daughter had Autism.

"As a rule of thumb, Jeff, if someone makes a point of calling themselves Dr. and has their own website, don't believe a word they're saying as they are just trying to sell you shit"

how true,they said I could get a big dick, so I ordered, what showed up was a rubber extension to slip on.

Their daughter had Autism.

Probably a rogue doctor, under the cover of darkness, snuck in and vaccinated her against her parents' will.

"Since they don't have electricity, it is easy to sneak in in the dark and do just that. So that proves it's true"

signed
li'l jeffy

If you don't vaccinate your kids you're a retarded child-murdering whack job. Hope your kids die.
Well, peace

You mean like the dozens of times you have called me 'goatfuck'? (to name one) That kind of name-calling? LOL

And yet, it's you. Always you who lowers yourself to the name calling first. You're past wanting to have any type of discussion. You do not want to have any type of discussion. You live for these types of threads for Jeff or Bob because being childish is entertainment for you.

And that's ok. I'm not going to make any attempt at stopping you.

It just means that you get thrown in the same bin with Dethspud. Rarely Read.

I know. You're crushed.

And yet, it's you. Always you who lowers yourself to the name calling first.

???

with the exception of bOoB, I rarely name call, and NEVER first. I challenge you to prove where it is I who ALWAYS name calls first. In fact, it is rare, if ever. I'm sure hans will be glad to help.

That being the case though, you are a liar -- not name calling, just a fact.

Have a nice life, axiom.

You do not want to have any type of discussion.

???

I ask questions. I refer to reputable links. I answer jeffy's questions.

Jeffy refuses to answer my questions. His response to my links is, "They're wrong", with nothing to back it up. I give him links to read but he actually admits he won't read them because he "knows they are wrong".

Yet you maintain I'm the one not wanting to have a discussion? LOL Your have very funny thought processes, axiom.

LOL

Take that sentence, substitute TV with 'conspiracy web sites' and that statement applies to li'l jeffy.

BTW, I don't watch TV, so I guess that makes me more objective, and I think you're a crackpot.

Post #32

Jeff posted #30 and #31.

Your post is a direct response to his two replies that were directed to someone else. And yet, the first thing you did was drop the "lil' jeffy" on us.

Credibility? Zilch for Goatman.

Have a nice life, axiom.

I have a totally awesome life. I work hard, I get paid decently. I go home and cook for myself. I go camping, hunting, fishing and hiking and shooting at the range.

Appreciate the best wishes.

That being the case though, you are a liar -- not name calling, just a fact.

I love being right about you. When all else fails, accuse them of being a liar.

I ask questions. I refer to reputable links. I answer jeffy's questions.

And you still continue to belittle him as a means of "discussion". Grown ups don't act like this

I have a totally awesome life. I work hard, I get paid decently. I go home and cook for myself. I go camping, hunting, fishing and hiking and shooting at the range.

It sounds a lot like mine, except I don't shoot. ANd I get 26 weeks a year to engage in those activities.

Grown ups don't act like this

But grown ups say, "I won't read this link because it's wrong".

Why do you admnosith me and give li'l jeffy a pass, axiom? Is it out of unfounded childish hatred towards me, or do you simply not read his replies to those who respond to him in a genuine manner. Or worse yet, you think those type of tactics are OK? What is the reason axiom?

When all else fails, accuse them of being a liar.

I was right. If not, back up your statment:

"And yet, it's you. Always you who lowers yourself to the name calling first."

Hans will be glad to help you. He has an unfounded and childish hatred of me, too.

Can't back it up? Then I'm right, am I not?. You are a liar. LOL

Why do you admnosith me and give li'l jeffy a pass, axiom? Is it out of unfounded childish hatred towards me, or do you simply not read his replies to those who respond to him in a genuine manner. Or worse yet, you think those type of tactics are OK? What is the reason axiom?

Build the strawman, then knock it down.

I've already told you that I give jeff the grief he deserves.

But we're talking about you and your inability to question or criticize Jeff without the use of "lil' jeffy".

I was right. If not, back up your statment:

I gave just one example of one time you, yourself, lied. You lack credibility. I don't have to justify myself any further simply because I've proven you're full of shit in just one search through the very same thread where you claim that you never insult anyone first.

Liar. Liar. Pants on fire.

Hans will be glad to help you. He has an unfounded and childish hatred of me, too.

You're not worth the energy to hate. You're not important enough to hate. You're the internet equivalent of an attention whore.

You're a dick. I can call you a dick without hating you. I work with plenty of people who act like dicks. I don't hate them either.

I gave just one example of one time you, yourself, lied. You lack credibility.

Deflection alert!

1) we are talking about your lie upthread
2) credibility has nothing to do with lying.

You are still a liar if you can't back up your statement.

Liar. Liar. Pants on fire.

And you call me childish!?! LOL

You're a dick

Tell me again how I'm the one who ALWAYS resorts to name calling first? LOL As I said: LIAR!

Enough of you. You've proven my point twice in your own retort. LOL Have your last word. You stepped on your own dick big time calling me childish then reorting to schoolyard taunts and proving yourself a liar in your #95. I can't top what you've done to yoursel. LOL

Later.

1) we are talking about your lie upthread
2) credibility has nothing to do with lying.

I just proved that I wasn't lying. That's not a deflection, it's exactly what we're talking about. You lied by saying you never insult anyone first, I pointed at that you always do and proved it by linking one post. A post in the very same thread where the accusation was made.

Credibility has everything to do with lying. How credible is someone if you know they're a proven liar? Remember the "Boy who cried wolf"? That is a story about honest and credibility. Remember, the villiage people at the end didn't believe him when he cried wolf that last time. That's because they didn't find him to be credibile.

Tell me again how I'm the one who ALWAYS resorts to name calling first? LOL As I said: LIAR!

I never made any claim that "I never call anyone a name first". I've freely admitted so in the past. You, on the other hand, claim that you're always the innocent poster, never doing any wrong. You're full of shit. That, plus you claim that "I hate you". Gimme a break.

Anyway, I see that you're just begging to be released from this thread, so go. I don't mind.

When you walk away, tuck your tail between your legs because you have been bested.

I never made any claim that "I never call anyone a name first".

Nice try. You said I always call names first. But I didn't, did I?

The rest of your post is just as much BS. No need to waste more time on you.

BTW, anyone that has to tell someone they've been bested is only trying to convince themselves. LOL Hope it worked.