.......great........the Iranians want Hamas to fight to the last drop of Palestinian blood......

......those Iranians are fucking two-faced cowards......

Hamas are tools.

Not particularily sharp tools or they woulda noticed by now that they are being used in a proxy war against Israel by their neighbours who lost to Israel when they first went to war against the fledgling nation.

These neighbours, who offer monetary support as well as arms, have no problem with Palestinians fighting to the last drop of their blood in this conflict.

Fer that matter either does the senior Hamas leadership who don't actually live in Palestine.

Ya know, if Israel hadn't exerted their over-influence with the Neo-Cons in order to start a proxy war with Iraq in which they don't care at all if America fights until it's currency is basically worthless then Spud might have a great deal more sympathy fer Israel here.

Desperate people commit desperate acts.

Decrease the desperation levels and increase the chance for peace in the region.

Spud to Hamas and Israel:

Bombing doesn't WIN hearts and minds it only hardens hearts and closes minds to the possibilities of peace.

Think about that.

Be Well.

More propaganda from the J Post.

It is strategically pertinent on behalf of Hamas to seek a cease fire with Israel. It would give them time to resupply, rebuild, move the wounded and bury their dead. It is not a sign of defeat.

from the article -
"A Fatah official in Ramallah said the speech reflected Hamas's growing predicament. "This speech shows that Hamas has been defeated," he said. "Haniyeh has actually raised the white flag."

Now why would Israel use a quote from a Fatah member to indicate the defeat of Hamas. Fatah and Hamas are rivals. This kind of statement can only come from Hamas or the IDF.

Israel is attempting to split the Palestinians politically by killing civilians to gain control in Gaza.

Pure propaganda and it wont work.

Hamas is unable to win militarily. The longer the conflict continues the higher the number of both Hamas fighters and innocent Palestinian civilians who become victims.
Yet the "leadership" safely in Beirut and Damascus wants them to keep fighting. Even with no conceivable favorable outcome.

LOL. Talk about a disconnect between the front office management and the grunts working in the factory.

This is like watching a fucking game of Marco Polo.

**** Bombing doesn't WIN hearts and minds .....
...#2 | Posted by dethspud *****

......where-as rocketing, brings out a good laugh from the happy-go-lucky yahoodies.......

****It is not a sign of defeat.
#3 | Posted by Prolix247 ****

......if not a sign of defeat, it is surely a sign of a serious ass kicking......

........Hamas overplayed its' hand, now it will be marginalized......

......I prognosticated before Israel entered Gaza, that if Hamas didn't stop the rockets, Israel would turn over Gaza to Fatah........it's well under way now........

......where-as rocketing, brings out a good laugh from the happy-go-lucky yahoodies.......

~Skizz

Wot part of Spud to Hamas and Israel: are you failing to get there?

Both sides target and kill civilians.

Rockets, bombs, suicide bombers, off shore bombardments, clusterbombs.

Same same.

All bad.

Be Well.

*** All bad.

#8 | Posted by dethspud *****

.......agreed that it's all bad spud.......

......I really am neutral in this affair......

......but......

......if instead of talking and negotiating, you're going to lob rockets over the wall, how long before people get pissed off enough to hit back hard enough to stop the rockets ?.......

......just think, how would ANY country respond ?...

.I prognosticated before Israel entered Gaza, that if Hamas didn't stop the rockets, Israel would turn over Gaza to Fatah........it's well under way now........

#7 | Posted by skizziks

You base this on one quote from Fatah in the JPost? It will be up to the people of Gaza to determine who will represent them. Last time I checked Hamas was democratically elected.

If there is an election coming to Gaza I might agree with you in this time frame only.

If Fatah tries to enter Gaza they will get there asses handed to them so they are more than willing to turn on their fellow Palestinians and allow the Israeli's to use them as a propaganda tool.

The Gaza Palestinians will know this to be true and will not trust Fatah to do the right thing. Hamas will grow stronger as a result of Fatah's intransigence.

You base this on one quote from Fatah in the JPost?

#10 | Posted by Prolix247

......no......its based on Haniyeh's quote on tv conceding that Hamas is cooked .....

......plus my own surmise......

......you may recall, I also said that Israel would enter Gaza to clean up, before they actually did...

......we'll know shortly who is right or wrong....like many pro-Palestinians on this blog, you prognosticate based on your wishes......me...I don't have an ax to grind in this fight.....so I am just looking at the tactics and strategy......

......when the ceasefire will be announced, Israel will make it a condition that they do not leave Gaza, until either Fatah or Egypt take over security there.......thats my prediction because nothing else makes sense......

when the ceasefire will be announced, Israel will make it a condition that they do not leave Gaza, until either Fatah or Egypt take over security there.......thats my prediction because nothing else makes sense......

#11 | Posted by skizziks

Israel will not be able to dictate the political environment in Gaza any more then the US can. They may want to but they can't.

There stated reason for entering Gaza was to stop the rockets not regime change. It has also been stated that the Israeli's knew that the rocket firing were being done not by Hamas but by an independent faction identifying with Hamas.

Hamas will not allow Fatah back in Gaza. They see them as traitors.

I don't have a dog in this fight. Both side have proven to be little more than children fighting for the last piece of candy. I have a different perspective than you obviously.

After Olmert released his statement regarding Condi Rice and GWB the US will loathe to stand by Israel 100% in the future. This may be the best thing to come out of this conflict.

**** There stated reason for entering Gaza was to stop the rockets not regime change.
.........#12 | Posted by Prolix247 ******

.......I don't think the rockets will stop without the regime being changed......

.......Israel knows that also........

.....it's our most desparate hour, you're our only hope. Help us obi wan kanobi.

Hamas ants time to rearm itself. I also liked the "reopen border crossings" part. Maybe if they quit sending rockes into Israel, the crossing would be reopened?

**** Help us obi wan kanobi......
.......#14 | Posted by Lipzoidial *****

........you must mean olmert ben yahoodi.......

Funny title. Hamas desperate ?

From Haaretz, Israeli newspaper

"Israel defense officials back immediate Gaza truce"

The desperate ones are the Fatah officials.

Okay, now Israel needs to hault their offensive and engage in talks. I'm not saying pull back into Israel, just stop advancing and stop the bombings. Let the talks happen, if they work then great, they can pull back and hopefully this is a first big step to peace. If they don't work, then you still have all your troops and equipment in place. I know some people would say this would give them time to regroup, but come on, its Gaza. Its small, poor and blown to hell. Time to talk.

Sounds like Israel is on the right path and needs to keep it going. Finish off Hamas once and for all. But done with these religious fanatics.

Pound those Cowardly Hamas fucks. They must realize that they are a comquered people and should have no say in any peace talks, except to bow down to a superior culture.

Okay, now Israel needs to hault their offensive and engage in talks. I'm not saying pull back into Israel, just stop advancing and stop the bombings. Let the talks happen, if they work then great, they can pull back and hopefully this is a first big step to peace. If they don't work, then you still have all your troops and equipment in place. I know some people would say this would give them time to regroup, but come on, its Gaza. Its small, poor and blown to hell. Time to talk.

#18 | Posted by GreenDad

Sounds goog to me.

The Jews are the superior culture? Yeah Ok..... You live in Texas so that explains everything Fat White Thom.

**** Okay, now Israel needs to hault their offensive and engage in talks.
...#18 | Posted by GreenDad *****

......if Israel wanted to talk, they could have picked up a phone.......

......the entry into Gaza is to end the rockets, and their source, Hamas......

......it would not make sense to stop now.......

.......the die-hards of Hamas are continuing the rocketing.......playing into Israel's hands.....

The rockets will never stop. Hamas or no Hamas. Israel will never know peace. the relatives of the dead will become those who fire rockets and so on. One day we will cease to support the Jews and Israel will finally be defeated and the prophecy of the bible will be proven false. All the Christians will be exposed as fools.

One side has to destroy the other, then we'll have peace.

****Funny title. Hamas desperate ?
The desperate ones are the Fatah officials.

#17 | Posted by hamdan *****

.......you remind me of the Iraqi information minister known as "Comical Ali"...

.....during the Iraqi war, even when the American tanks were visible on the road behind him in Bagdad, he was saying that the Iraqi Army had crushed the Americans and had stopped them......

......you're a card......

**** The rockets will never stop.
#25 | Posted by rastaninja *****

.....another peace-loving Muslim joins in......

....welcome to the farm Rasta......

**** One side has to destroy the other, then we'll have peace.
......#26 | Posted by shirtsbyeric ****

......not so.......

.....they simply have to come to a peace agreement......

....Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Turkey, all cooperate Israel......the others will also, in time......

*** the prophecy of the bible will be proven false
....#25 | Posted by rastaninja *****

....I concede that the Bible is full of shit......

....but it was written by the same ignorant sand monkeys that wrote the Koran and Torah......

......Bible, Koran, Torah, are all bullshit to control the retarded.......

......are you one of the retarded ?........

*** All the Christians will be exposed as fools.
.....#25 | Posted by rastaninja ****

......I agree with you that the Christians are fools.....

.....but......

....that certainly does not mean the Muslims are displaying any intelligence.....blowing themselves up and subjecting their children to misery, death, undereducation and starvation......so that they can play rocketeers.......

......even stupider than the Christians if you ask me.......

It was Hamas's peace initiatives coupled with Obama's victory which unleashed another round of Israeli violence. The Shrub is always open to violent solutions and Israel doesn't trust Obama yet, even though he seems to be subservient to AIPAC.

Most disagreement on this subject shares the chicken or egg question in substance. But some facts are crystal clear. Israel was created on Arab territory. It was like a war reparation born by Arabs who had nothing to do with WWII. The British led this political manuveur and over time Israel became a client State of the US, with an surreal capacity to shape US foriegn policy. Once dependent on Palestinians much as we depend on Mexicans, Jewish Immigration from Russia and Eastern Europe turned that relationship on end. Palestinians were then locked out of Israel's political and economic system, routinely murdered, systematically displaced, and eventually imprisoned in Gaza and the West Bank with Israel controlling their access to food, health care, electricity, and all forms of trade.

Over the last 60 years, Israel has expanded its territory and gravely diminished the flow of water from the Jordan river into neighboring countries. It has consistently depended on force to achieve its objectives. Israel has used peace negotiations to counter political criticism without ever offering a single concession. The blaming of Arafat for the failure of peace negotiations is a lie, promoted for political reasons in the USA. It makes us feel better while Israel continues to slaughter them.

Israel ROCKS..............

Israel is our point man in the war against the barbarians. We need to support them even with nukes if necessary. Islam will not go down without a suicidal fight.

Maximus Thom

*** Israel has used peace negotiations to counter political criticism without ever offering a single concession. ....#32 | Posted by nutcase *****

......when you use false statements to bolster your theory.......you even make the truth look as if its just propaganda........

......Israel gave back the Negev to Egypt.......
......Israel dismantled and withdrew all settlers from Gaza.....
......Israel controlled Lebanon to the Litani river and gave it back....
......Israel is currently negotiating the return of the Golan Heights with Syria......
......the Israelis supreme court recently ordered a settlement in the West Bank returned to Palestinians, and the army cleaned out the settlers....

Your point of view will be more compelling if you stick to the truth......

*** It was Hamas's peace initiatives coupled with Obama's victory which unleashed another round of Israeli violence. ..#32 | Posted by nutcase ****

.......puhleeease......

....."Hamas's peace initiatives" ??.......now you really do sound like a nutcase........

......what "peace initiatives" would that be ??...they sent 6 thousand rockets over the border in the past few years........

.....with statements like this, you make yourself sound ridiculous......like a real nutcase.......

The rockets will never stop. Hamas or no Hamas. Israel will never know peace. the relatives of the dead will become those who fire rockets and so on. One day we will cease to support the Jews and Israel will finally be defeated and the prophecy of the bible will be proven false. All the Christians will be exposed as fools.
#25 | Posted by rastaninja

Hey Rastis I see you are a typical towel head just like most of your cowardly brothers from the religion of peace. I think the Koran will be proven wrong along with the Infidels that have twisted it around to suit their own needs. Making peace with HamAss is like signing a deal with Hitler HamAss only wants to have the borders open long enough to rearm themselves then they will break the cease fire first as usual. Hey Rastis tell your camel humping buddy klifferd I said Hello...

***"Ya know, if Israel hadn't exerted their over-influence with the Neo-Cons in order to start a proxy war with Iraq in which they don't care at all if America fights until it's currency is basically worthless then Spud might have a great deal more sympathy fer Israel here." SPUD***

Curious as to where this comes from, please explain. Not saying you're wrong, just don't see the connections.

"Israel has used peace negotiations to counter political criticism without ever offering a single concession."

Seems to me they left Gaza entirely, even FORCING Israeli settlers to leave. Was that a concession? I told you before, NuttyCase, you need to read up on the Oslo Accords.
It also seems to me that it is Hamas which won't make a "single concession." As they have stated on MANY occasions, they won't stop the rockets and they intend to completely destroy Israel. You're not blinded by a hatred of Israel or Jews, are you, NutJob? Or is it that you're just ignorant?

......just think, how would ANY country respond ?...

#9 | Posted by skizziks

The libs in Canada would love it. They would send flowers.

**** The libs in Canada
#40 | Posted by Sniper *****

.....trust AssWiper to be on topic.......

this comment means one thing and one thing only as history has shown
its time for hamas to get another shipment from iran and syria and to wait it out for the world to look somewhere else so the rockets can continue

just as in desert storm and just as in the lebanon war....dont stop now.

"One day we will cease to support the Jews and Israel will finally be defeated and the prophecy of the bible will be proven false."

Even if we did, the Israelis are still decades ahead of the surrounding Arab nations in regards to the military technology. That's without even bringing up their nuclear arsenal.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Israel is going to be around for a very long time and will never be defeated by these inaccurate rockets that only serve to provoke Israel into wrecking the Palestinians.

Its been 60 years of getting wrecked by the Israelis. The Palestinians will lose their will to fight. Eventually a peaceful leader will come along and they will negotiate a lasting peace with Israel. Only a matter of time.

Desperate enough to knock off the rocket barrages? Seems that would be a good start; particularly since they (the rockets) don't deter the Israeli Defense Force but, rather spur them on.

The Palestinians haven't been "wrecked" by the Israelis, but rather by themselves, and by everyone else. If they lived in Zurich instead of Gaza, in six months the place would be uninhabitable. Does anyone really believe that these people are capable of anything resembling self-government? Municipal services?

When someone like Skiziks is actually the lone voice of reason on a discussion thread, this must be the DR, and he's out to prove that even a broken clock is right, briefly, a couple of times a day.

well dad...dont just expect them to be around without our help though...
without our help I feel that they would have been attacked long ago.
( holy shit batman.,..look at what I wrote..."I FEEL" ....damn...I hope that me writing like some sort of liberal about "I FEEL" isnt some sort of sign that I have been at the DR too long....)

we must not lose sight of the fact that the muslim world is united in the eradication of israel and also just how important israel is to our security.

If they lived in Zurich instead of Gaza, in six months the place would be uninhabitable. Does anyone really believe that these people are capable of anything resembling self-government? Municipal services?

When someone like Skiziks is actually the lone voice of reason on a discussion thread, this must be the DR, and he's out to prove that even a broken clock is right, briefly, a couple of times a day.

#45 | Posted by rightisright at 2009-01-14 11:58 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

DAMN you are one fart smeller......I mean smart feller....

I have said this several times.. gaza can be compared to some of the karina places in houston
they were given a trailor to live in and did nothing but trash it and then complain when that trailor was in bad shape.
is that a reason for israel to keep the attack? no, but hamas is.

ISRAEL >...DONT STOP NOW>>>>.....

"One day we will cease to support the Jews and Israel will finally be defeated and the prophecy of the bible will be proven false."

Let's review. There's your presumption and then there's the Sovereign God of the Universe and His Word.

You vs God and His Word...of which Jesus stated 'not one jot or tittle (small grammatical marks) shall pass away until all is fulfilled.

Gonna have to go with God and His Word.

it has never been about a homeland for the palestian
it is about the destruction of isreal -the hamas hezzbolah plo ect ect have caused more misery and death
in west bank and gaza-when they rocket isreal they know their people will bear the brunt of isreals retaliation
but they attack the jews anyway-it's "arab pride"that the palistians are sufferin for
jasman

**** the lone voice of reason ....... briefly.....
#45 | Posted by rightisrigh ****

......I'm always the lone voice of reason.......

.....whenever you feel that you disagree with one of my posts, just take another 100 Milligrams of your anti-psychosis medication, wait 20 minutes, and reread the post.........

Seems to me that both sides think that if enough violence is piled on the other side, they'll eventually lose their will and change their policies. I don't think that really ever applies, except in total capitulation WW 2 style endgame scenario. Frankly this situation is unique, and WW2 or Hitler analogies don't hold water. Hamas can't expect to lob rockets and not get hit back - at the same time, Isarel can't impose a quarantine just because Hamas got elected and expect them to just take it, then when they attack you claim it is unprovoked.
For the record, if election of a party that doesn't recognize the other nations right to exist is justification for embargo (which is an act of war) - I think the fact that Israeli coalition gov'ts include settler parties and even some Likud factions who don't want a Pal state at all arguably falls into that category as well and there's some hypocracy there...

it has never been about a homeland for the palestian
it is about the destruction of isreal -the hamas hezzbolah plo ect ect have caused more misery and death
in west bank and gaza-when they rocket isreal they know their people will bear the brunt of isreals retaliation
but they attack the jews anyway-it's "arab pride"that the palistians are sufferin for
jasman

#49 | Posted by newjasman

wow.......what perception....has your body been inhabitied by some alien life form....damn good post.....

My anti-psychosis medication precludes my being able to read your posts. That's how I know it's working.

My anti-psychosis medication precludes my being able to read your posts. That's how I know it's working.

#53 | Posted by rightisright

......I see......it makes it hard to move your lips........oh well.......as long it gets you over the hump....

The main hang-up regarding the cease fire and the Egyptian Plan is the Operation of Boarder Crossing Authority. The Israelis are standing firm in that they will only allow Egypt and Israel to control access to the boarder crossings while Hamas is stating they should have equal control and access to the boarders in their territory. It is not about Hamas being defeated.

Hamas wants to resupply and move the injured. Israel is attempting to stop Hamas from resupplying.

This last week has been a PR nightmare for Israel and they have been weakened in their position politically.

Tippi - stated that all Arabs in Israel should "Go find their own homeland."

and

"There is no Humanitarian problems in the Gaza"

Olmert -Well he either lied or publicity insulted both Condi Rice and GWB when he stated he demanded that GWB leave a podium while giving a speech to contact Condi and order her to Abstain from voting on her own Cease Fire Resolution. Olmert has since hardened his position and said GWB is lying or something.

An IDF Commander admitted that in their war plan the have designated certain villages as military bases and legitimate targets for the military. Of course he admitted to a war crime in that he admitted that it was government policy to target civilians (I think Bani posted a link to the article on a different back page post yesterday).

This is getting the Orwellian treatment by the media.

"well dad...dont just expect them to be around without our help though...
without our help I feel that they would have been attacked long ago."

I really think at this point, at least militarily, Israel is self sustaining. Their nuclear arsenal prevents any full scale attack to destroy them by their neighbors, because if pushed to that point Israel would use them. If the surrounding nations aquire nuclear weapons as well, then the concept of mutually assured destruction would apply.

Now if we totally abandoned them as far as trade and economic help, yeah that would really hurt them, but that would be a drastic change in course and would have to be backed by the rest of the world as well.

Plus any president taking such an action would be voted out at the next election anyways and replaced by someone more supportive.

Fucking israeli propaganda from the nauseous jerusalem post.

The israeli's haven't killed enough people yet to satisfy their discussing bloodlust, so it doesn't matter what any Palestinian leader thinks.

Israel promised a holocaust on Gaza and they will kill many more before this is done. The destruction of Gaza is the obvious plan.

Israel promised a holocaust on Gaza and they will kill many more before this is done. The destruction of Gaza is the obvious plan.

#57 | Posted by carlH at 2009-01-14 12:32 PM | Reply

Carl,
The Israeli's were invited in to Gaza. Don't you remember? Hamass mutts and their leaders were begging the Isaeli's to come.

How has that worked out so far?

"it's "arab pride"that the palistians are sufferin for"

Exactly. Egypt, Syria and Jordan were allowed to quietly admit their loss and move on after the war but the Palestinians have to live in perpetually shitty conditions just so the Arabs don't have to admit their final defeat (which was utterly pathetic given the advantage they enjoyed early on).

Arabs do nothing for their Palestinian "brothers" other than encourage them to blow themselves up or to engage in equally self destructive endeavors.

But the Palestinians are the ones allowing themselves to be used as dupes by patronizing cowards who could care less about them. The longer it goes on, the less sympathy I have for these suicidal fools.

Good thing Fatah (sworn political enemy of Hamas) has clarified the Hamas PM's statement for us all. I mean, they have no reason to be biased or anything. And its not like the media can't just go into Gaza and verify this "desperation". Wait...

What a worthless load of non-information.

***** The main hang-up regarding the cease fire and the Egyptian Plan is the Operation of Boarder Crossing Authority..... It is not about Hamas being defeated.
.......#55 | Posted by Prolix247 ******

.......please cite your source for this.......

....as it doesn't make sense that Israel would allow Hamas to survive.............

***** Of course he admitted to a war crime in that he admitted that it was government policy to target civilians .....
....#55 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

.........same as the Hamas rockets, but of course you don't condemn Hamas, you make excuses for them........

*****Olmert -Well he either lied ...
..#55 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

......a politician who lied ??.......shocking !!....

......please.....they are all liars....thats what they do......unless you are goint to tell us that all the Arab politicians are honest, there's just not that much to this part of the discussion......

***** Israel promised a holocaust on Gaza .....#57 | Posted by carlH ******

........link please.........

The destruction of Gaza is the obvious plan.

#57 | Posted by carlH

.......no........

......the end of the rocketing and the destruction of Hamas is the obvious plan.......

.....if you have more INFORMATION, please share....

......if you have more OPINIONS, well, they are like rectums, everybody's got one......

Fucking israeli propaganda from the nauseous jerusalem post.
The israeli's haven't killed enough people yet to satisfy their discussing bloodlust, so it doesn't matter what any Palestinian leader thinks.
Israel promised a holocaust on Gaza and they will kill many more before this is done. The destruction of Gaza is the obvious plan.
#57 | Posted by carlH

What I think is funny as hell is the same retarded asswipes that voted HamAss into power are the same Palestinians who are now bitching about being killed. I thought their motto was Jihad Jihad no peace ever, what's wrong did they figure out war causes death on both sides. Israel needs to keep this Jihad going forever making certain there is never any peace. Muslims need their collective asses kicked on a daily basis just to keep them busy they love war good now they have one may Israel continue what HamAss has started until Gaza and it's infidels are no more ...

War be upon you and shoved up your asses until your eyes pop out...

#61 | Posted by skizziks

In my post I acknowledged I read this article I believe was posted by Bani on the Back Page but it is gone now and I don't know how to retrieve it.

Still what I posted IS accurate and the boarder crossing issue will be forced on both sides so independent investigators and media can get in to see what has actually occurred.

I believe we will find that Israel has destroyed the village to save it.

As far as Olmert is concerned, if you think insulting the President and the Sec of State is a good idea during war and you need American support. Well alright then.

**** Still what I posted IS accurate ...
.....#67 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

.....perhaps it is......we will know in the next 7 to 10 days.......

*** As far as Olmert is concerned, if you think insulting the President and the Sec of State is a good idea .....
...#67 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

.....I am not defending them....they mix truth and lies whenever talking.....the incisive view is to see what they are doing......and Omert and Tippi and Ehud Barak have been consistent in what their preparations & actions are .......

......and from where I am looking, their "task" will be over when Egypt or Fatah are policing Gaza......

#69 | Posted by skizziks

What makes you think Egypt wants the responsibility to rebuild what Israel has destroyed? Israel broke Gaza, now they own it.

Fatah is seen as being traitors in Gaza. They will not be welcome.

The US and Israel do want Fatah to control Gaza but until there is another election Hamas is the government.

There will be a cease fire not a surrender so Israel will not be able to dictate its demands.

**** What makes you think Egypt wants the responsibility to rebuild what Israel has destroyed? ...
......#70 | Posted by Prolix247 ****

......Egypt does not WANT Gaza.....if they undertake to police it, it will certainly be a headache for them......

......but Hamas will not be allowed to retain control, because they will start up with the smuggled weapons and rockets as soon as they have a chance......so Israel will give control to either Fatah or Hamas.......

**** Fatah is seen as being traitors in Gaza. They will not be welcome.
.....#70 | Posted by Prolix247 ****

.....they do have clans that support them still, you know that......

.....and even if not loved, they can be tolerated by the Gazans, in the same way that much of the Muslim world tolerates governments that it does not like......

***** The US and Israel do want Fatah to control Gaza but until there is another election Hamas is the government.
.......#70 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

.....its called Real-Politik.....it means that who is in charge, is in charge......

......I don't think that the U.S., Israel, or Fatah, will play with Palestinian democracy now that their fingers were burned.......not for a long time.........

**** There will be a cease fire not a surrender so Israel will not be able to dictate its demands.
......#70 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

.....that's the best-case scenario now for Hamas....

.....but Israel understands this........

......so they will keep expanding the war until Hamas surrenders or until Israel is able to dictate the ceasefire terms........

......of course, I could be wrong, but we will see in the next 7 - 10 days........

so Israel will give control to either Fatah or Hamas.......

#71 | Posted by skizziks

......I meant to say either Fatah or EGYPT......

Skizziks,

After Israel's defeat in July 2006 in Lebanon, they felt it important to transmit the message that Israel is still a fighting force, still capable of terrorizing those who dare defy its word.

Another reason for the attack is because Hamas was signaling that it wanted a diplomatic settlement of the conflict along the June 1967 border. That is to say, Hamas was signaling they had joined the international consensus, they had joined most of the international community, overwhelmingly the international community, in seeking a diplomatic settlement. And at that point, Israel was faced with what Israelis call a Palestinian peace offensive. And in order to defeat the peace offensive, they sought to dismantle Hamas.

As was documented in the April 2008 issue of Vanity Fair by the writer David Rose, basing himself on internal US documents, it was the United States in cahoots with the Palestinian Authority and Israel which were attempting a putsch on Hamas, and Hamas preempted the putsch. That, too, is no longer debatable or no longer a controversial claim.

The issue is can Hamas rule in Gaza if Israel maintains a blockade and prevents economic activity among the Palestinians. The blockade began before Hamas came to power. The US sent James Wolfensohn, to try to break the blockade after Israel redeployed its troops in Gaza.

The problem all along has been that Israel doesn't want Gaza to develop, and Israel doesn't want to resolve diplomatically the conflict, both the leadership in Damascus and the leadership in the Gaza have repeatedly made statements they're willing to settle the conflict in the June 1967 border. The record is unambiguously clear.

Every year, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled "Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question." And every year the vote is the same: it's the whole world on one side; Israel, the United States and some South Sea atolls and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989in 1989, the vote was 151-to-3, the whole world on one side, the United States, Israel and the island state of Dominica on the other side.

Excerpted from Finklestein @ Counterpunch

Skizziks,

When I say Israel has never provided any concessions, I mean for the Palestinians. Your examples mostly have to do with other more powerful countries, one with whom Israel negotiated a peace treaty, namely Egypt, which both sides have honored.

Those points related to the Palestinian conflict are:
1. Israel dismantled and withdrew all settlers from Gaza.....
this is true, but it was done so they could bomb the shit out of the place without killing any Israelis.

2. The Israelis supreme court recently ordered a settlement in the West Bank returned to Palestinians, and the army cleaned out the settlers....
I don't know much about this point. Maybe Israeli Courts are more honest and focused on justice than ours or Israel's other institutions. If so I applaud them for it. But, does that constitute a "compromise negotiated with the Palestinians"? absolutely not.

Nut,
Don't confuse me with facts.

Prime Minister Olmert ordered President Bush from the podium where he was giving a speech to receive Israel's instructions about how the United States had to vote on the UN resolution. "On September 11th, President Bush is interrupted while reading a story to school children and told the World Trade Center had been hit--and he went on reading. Now, Olmert calls about a UN resolution when Bush is giving a speech and Bush leaves the stage to take the call. There exists no greater example of a master-servant relationship."

Olmert gloated as he told Israelis how he had shamed US Secretary of State Condi Rice by preventing the American Secretary of State from supporting a resolution that she had helped to craft.

excerpted from Paul Craig Roberts @ Counterpunch

"When I say Israel has never provided any concessions, I mean for the Palestinians"

To whom can Israel offer concessions? Who is the Palestinian leader who wants to negotiate AND can deliver on the promise to control the militants (which is the only thing the Palestinians have to offer)? It can't be a member of Hamas because Hamas will not accept Israel. It can't be someone outside Hamas, because Hamas would literally rather kill their fellow Palestinians than be controlled by anyone else.

The Palestinians couldn't even live with the Oslo Accords, which were basically just a promise to end the violence so future negotiations could take place.

So why do people insist on pretending that Israel is unwilling to negotiate when the Palestinians literally can't produce a single leader who is qualified and willing to negotiate on their behalf?

Treating the Palestinians like a bunch of retards/babies who can't live up to even minimal expectations hasn't done them a hell of alot of good. Maybe its time to start treating them like grownups.

A cease fire will only benefit Hamas. Israel should keep pounding them and demand unconditional surrender. What they do will reverberate through history.

Gladiator Thom

*** And at that point, Israel was faced with what Israelis call a Palestinian peace offensive.****

......"peace offensive"......you are whistling past the graveyard......(hint:rockets, suicide bombs)

**** The problem all along has been that Israel doesn't want Gaza to develop, and Israel doesn't want to resolve diplomatically the conflict, both the leadership in Damascus and the leadership in the Gaza have repeatedly made statements they're willing to settle the conflict in the June 1967 border....#76 | Posted by nutcase *****

......first....it would be in Israel's long term economic interest to have a developed economy in Gaza......

.......second.....in all your description of what is wrong with Israel and Israel's behavior (and it may all be accurate), you have forgotten what is wrong with Hamas and Hamas' behavior......

......Hamas' behavior is self-defeating.....I suspect it is done this way, because the people who are paying for Hamas' behavior (Iran, Syria), do not care if they sacrifice the Palestinian people....

......third.....as long as any Palestinian organization uses violence as a way to advance its nationalist agenda, they will lose.......violence and negotiations are mutually exclusive........I sincerely wish that not Palestinian had to be harmed to re-inforce this lesson, but they have chosen the road of violence, and now it leads home......

**** 1. Israel dismantled and withdrew all settlers from Gaza.....
this is true, but it was done so they could bomb the shit out of the place without killing any Israelis.
.....#77 | Posted by nutcase *****

......in as much there are internal struggle within the Palestinian movement....there are internal struggles inside Israel......when they do something good, you should acknowledge that......they withdrew and gave the Palestinians control back over Gaza......

.....and what did the Gazans do with this freedom ??......rockets......thank you Israel......

......Hamas provided the justification for Israel to bomb Gaza.....thank Hamas for the bombs......

**** I don't know much about this point. Maybe Israeli Courts are more honest and focused on justice than ours or Israel's other institutions. If so I applaud them for it. But, does that constitute a "compromise negotiated with the Palestinians"? absolutely not.

#77 | Posted by nutcase *****

......do you really believe that as long as Hamas is rocketing Israel there can be negotiations ?.....

......the rocketing is done to make sure that there will be NO negotiations......

NEWS FLASH: GAZA DEATH TOLL TOPS 1000

......Nutcase & Prolix......here is the link regarding the Israeli court decision......after the decision, the Israeli army removed the settlers .....

.....I have always maintained that the Palestinians could get more by using non-violent means, by getting a Ghandi-like leader who could use the Israeli and world court systems, and who could organize a system of peaceful non-compliance as Ghandi did.....

......but until such a leader emerges, Palestinians will continue to suffer.......but here is the exerpt and the link for you.......enjoy the read....

From the Article -
The Olmert-Livni government should reject the court's decision and not enforce the eviction. Not doing so would be allowing the court to once again dictate political decisions from the bench, to the benefit of Israel's enemies.

What is your point? I did not see where the article claimed the settlers were removed but I will take your word for it.

Skizziks,

Who started it? This would be a chicken and egg problem except the fact is: Israel is the aggressor. They started the '67 war and killed American Soldiers on the Liberty in an effort to cover up that fact and on and on. They have been taking more land than originally allocated them, one farm and house at a time.

The rocket attacks are a comparatively weak way of saying, you cannot break our will. The rocket attacks are an act of resistance to being imprisoned by Israel. You have the order of events backwards.

Hamas is a guerilla movement, incapable of destroying Israel. Israel is a hi-tech killing machine, equipped and financed by the United States. But, like the US under Shrub, in the long run, that kind of expensive power has real limits to its effectiveness. Israel may end up losing any possibility of peace with its neighbors. There is a substantial movement in Israel against their own aggression. Many Israelis understand this problem better than the US mass media ever reports. Their February elections will hopefully provide change for the better within their belligerent Government.

All the strong differences of opinion on this subject revolve around who started it. The record is clear. Israel started waging war. Israel is the aggressor.

oh and the Oslo accords include three principals, 1. The Palestinians shall be free to rule themselves. 2. The Israelis will control Palestinian borders 3. Israel alone gets to decide what land it keeps or not.

2&3 render 1 meaningless. So why would Arafat agree to such nonsense?

American Taxpayers Unwittingly Arming & Endorsing Sleazy-Slimy Israel and its Gutless Genocide on Defenseless Palestinians!!!

Lets hope and pray that Israel and all her evil,fgreedy,murderous supporters arw completely wiped off the world's map!!!! Amen!!!

ISRAEL rocks..... Rid the earth of these fucking scunbags also known as muslums.

ISRAEL rocks..... Rid the earth of these fucking scunbags also known as muslums.

Posted by cabo_vato at 2009-01-14 07:35 PM

The entire population you wish to exterminate are not known as "muslums", "scunbag".

hey nutcase-because he was party to their initiation. Arafat set Palestine back 100 years. If it wasnt for that asshole they would be $3B in the black, living free in their own state with the world on their side. As it is, anyone who was there when it happended or actually studies history has zero sympathy for them and the mess they created for themselves

Arafat set Palestine back 100 years

And got a Nobel for doing it.

I've never trusted the worth of a Nobel prize since.

Did Iran agree with this?

""We will deal positively with any initiative aimed at ending the offensive," he said."

Except, I'm guessing, ceasing the daily rocket attacks into Israel.

Israel should not stop until Ismail Haniyeh is lying face up with his dead eyes staring into hell.

Except, I'm guessing, ceasing the daily rocket attacks into Israel.

#96 | Posted by Danforth

That would seem to be the problem.

"Bombing doesn't WIN hearts and minds it only hardens hearts and closes minds to the possibilities of peace"

It isn't like they've not been made aware of these facts before. When is everyone going to realize that these "victims" have no interest in peace at all?

*** Who started it?

#88 | Posted by nutcase ***

......who will end it ?......

.....if the Palestinians do not produce a leader who is capable of bringing them through a negotiated peace process, using non-violence, they will continue to remain the gypsies of the middle east........( for in truth, their brother Muslims want them that way in perpetuity ).....

....."who started it"...rights to the land have to include the question "when"....everyone has owned that land.....Ottoman Turks, Jews, Christian Crusaders, British, Hittites,....the question of where to start is meaningless.....ending it is the point......

**** The rocket attacks are a comparatively weak way of saying, you cannot break our will.... #88 | Posted by nutcase *****

.....as long as you believe that Hamas should have the right to rocket Israel without Israel having the corresponding right to annihilate Hamas....then you are a willing participant in a delusion......nobody believes it except fellow co-delusionals.....and no country in the world would accept being rocketed.......

meanwhile the gas/oil reserves on the Gaza side look quite promising to the possible victors:>/

......this thread has been exhausted, but I will end my postings here with this......

.....the Palestinians need leadership that can work through non-violent methods.....they could get 90% of what they want, including good lives, good education for their children, meaningful work, the ability to travel world wide, and turn their homes from ghettoes into gardens........will they ever produce such a leader ??......I don't know, and the odds are stacked against it.......

.......but to stick with violence, hoping that somehow the Muslims can unite and wipe Israel off the map....is a delusion.....it is fostered by regimes who have a vested interest in keeping the Palestinians as whipping boys.....it is a cynical betrayel of co-religionists...but this is what Iran and Syria are depending on ......the perpetual subjugation and misery of the Palestinian people......

......in the end....it is up to the Palestinians to choose the kind of life they want......I hope they choose wisely......

If they want peace then they can stop shooting at the Israeli Army, turn over their munitions, and surrender.

Their whole society is built on hate, and the best way to win their "Hearts and Minds" is to put a bullet into one or the other.

Imagine Tijuana firing rockets into San Diego. For years. Even those West Coast Wussies wouldn't put up with that.

Carry On.

Imagine Tijuanna having all that gas & oil reserves...my, my the lust would be just uncontrolable

Typical of the brain dead US press. 2/3 of those killed by the Israelis were civilians meaning Hamas has lost about 1% of its fighting force. Meanhwile Hamas continues to reign rockets down on Israel...

"Five wounded, two seriously, as Gaza rockets slam into Be'er Sheva"

Meanwhile mainstream organization like the EU, the Red Cross etc increasingly view Israel as a rogue state...and it is Hamas who is desperate for a peace deal? I think not.

"If they want peace then they can stop shooting at the Israeli Army, turn over their munitions, and surrender."

If Israelis want peace they can stop stealing Arab land you brain-washed halfwit.

"Imagine Tijuana firing rockets into San Diego."

You racist yanks been stealing their land again halfwit?

""Imagine Tijuana firing rockets into San Diego."

Imagine Israel firing rockets into Gaza you brain-dead imbecile.

"......but to stick with violence, hoping that somehow the Muslims can unite and wipe Israel off the map....is a delusion."

You are the deluded one. Muslims only have to wait until demography wins the day....and US power wanes.

"......Israel gave back the Negev to Egypt.......
......Israel dismantled and withdrew all settlers from Gaza....."

This brain washed imbecile left out the fact that Israel continue to seize land in the West Bank all the while....

Israel is like like the thief who hands back your change while stealing your wallet and then says let's be friends.

"without Israel having the corresponding right to annihilate Hamas.."

'Annihilate'? It is no coincidence that these cretins increasingly adopt the language of the Nazis.

Israeli apologists seem to assume Israel has the inherent right to resort to violence whereas Paletinians do not.

Israel stole land and water through violent means, Palestinians have resisted these actions using the only methods avaiable to them, guerilla tactics, just like we fought the British. A frontal confrontation would annihilate them, because Israel's weapons of mass destruction easily overwhelm any and every Arab Nation.

Israel is now attacking the UN Headquarters, UN humanitarian Aid Workers, Foreign Journalists and destroying UN medical and food supplies and lying about it.

Israel just lost this war...

"Palestinians have resisted these actions using the only methods avaiable to them, guerilla tactics, just like we fought the British."

That is the biggest load of bullshit I've read here in quite a while. The Continental Army targetted uniformed soldiers. Hamas desperately avoids the IDF. There is zero similarity.

Somebody obviously failed American History 101.

...you brain-washed halfwit...You are the deluded one...This brain washed imbecile .....these cretins ....language of the Nazis....

Good Morning Tom...we welcome your trenchant insight, keen sense of fairness, and thorough respect for the debaters on this site.

"Muslims only have to wait until demography wins the day..."

They've had Israel outnumber for its entire existence. What the hell are they waiting for?

Truth is that Israel, while desperately outnumbered and with no help from the US, won the 1947 war simply because the Arabs suck at fighting and make horrible allies who lie to one another.

In the present, other Muslims don't care about the Palestinians. They do nothing for them, unless you somehow count encouraging people to commit suicide as "helping them".

The Palestinians lost the war 60 years ago. They need to accept reality and move on. Given how stupid and self destructive they are, the people who encourage them to keep fighting are doing them a great disservice.

Prolix & Nutcase

**** Palestinians have resisted these actions using the only methods avaiable to them ..
...#112 | Posted by nutcase ****

......you see......this is where I disagree with you.....I think the Palestinians have another method available....and this legal action, combined with negotiations, and non-violent civil disobedience....

..but as I said before, until a Palestinian leader embraces the non-violent road, the Palestinians will remain the outcasts of the middle east......

.......perhaps the Palestinians do not have in them to produce a man as great and wise as Mendala or Ghandi......

A MESSAGE TO THE WEST FROM THE PALESTINIAN PRIME MINISTER

Evidently, Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005 did not end its occupation nor, as a result, its international obligations as an occupying power. It continued to control and dominate our borders by land, sea and air. Indeed the UN has confirmed that between 2005 and 2008, the Israeli army killed nearly 1,250 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. For most of that period the border crossings have remained effectively closed, with only limited quantities of food, industrial fuel, animal feed and a few other essential items, allowed in.

Skizz,
This incursion is no longer about Israel and the Palestinian condition. It is about International Law and Genocide.

Of Course Israel has the capacity to kill all the women and children in Gaza which is very clear that is their intention. To create such a condition of death and deprivation that the Palestinians will turn against Hamas.

Now that Israel has attacked both UN Schools (two now), UN Headquarters and UN Humanitarian Aid storage facilities (medical and food) the international community will now hold court.

".......perhaps the Palestinians do not have in them to produce a man as great and wise as Mendala or Ghandi*......"

Apparently this imbecile thinks Israel would give them back ALL THEIR LAND, like the British and South African apartheid regimes did.

I don't.

* Learn how to spell Gandhi, imbecile.

"For most of that period the border crossings have remained effectively closed"

When it came to Egypt, Israel claimed blockades were acts of war. Israel's own arguments therefore justify Hamas rocket attacks..

When it came to Egypt, Israel claimed blockades were acts of war. Israel's own arguments therefore justify Hamas rocket attacks..

#121 | Posted by Tom_W

but they won

"but they won"

I suggest you check out the demographics, simpleton. Hamas wins by merely surviving - and given that only 1% of their fighters have been killed - they've survived in spades. Israel's days as an apartheid state are numbered.

and given that only 1% of their fighters have been killed

There is no way to know. You can only get a percent if you know the total to start with. Hamas wears no uniform and has no membership rosters, so how can you say only 1% have died. When one considers the lack of uniform, how do you not know most of the supposed "civilian deaths" are not actually Hamas deaths?

I suggest you check out the demographics, simpleton. Hamas wins by merely surviving - and given that only 1% of their fighters have been killed - they've survived in spades. Israel's days as an apartheid state are numbered.

#123 | Posted by Tom_W at 2009-01-15 02:25 PM | Reply |

You've been touting that number since before the ground invasion (BTW, how is Hamass doing with that...). Are you telling me that no hamass mutts have been killed since you've been throwing around your 1% figure, or are you privy to their recruiting?

Hamas wears no uniform and has no membership rosters, so how can you say only 1% have died. When one considers the lack of uniform, how do you not know most of the supposed "civilian deaths" are not actually Hamas deaths?

#124 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-01-15 02:27 PM | Reply

Tom W pulls the figures out of his ass, like most everything he types.

Perhaps the pro-hamass people could chip in and buy those guys some uniforms? They'll need kids' sizes as well.

Hamas is generally agreed to be approximately 45,000 members strong. This number includes both the political and military wings of Hamas as well as those splinter groups which support Hamas.

If 600 Hamas fighters (to be greatly generous) have been killed and say 3000 injured. This leave Hamas intact.

But everyone who claims the real total is unknown is also correct. A cease fire will allow for proper damage assessment.

They'll need kids' sizes as well.

Maybe we could set up a donation site. Where's Bowa? He had tee shirts, shorts, and thongs.

Clothe the Children. How can the libs resist? Maybe we could get Lucy Liu to promote it.

Don't they have a "Baby Jihad" and "Martyrs R Us" in Jordan?

Don't they have a "Baby Jihad" and "Martyrs R Us" in Jordan?

Yes. Those tiny little training bomb vests are adorable.

Apparently this imbecile thinks ...

I don't.

..........#120 | Posted by Tom_W

.......you seem to be correct Tom.....you're just not thinking things through....as I suspect is the case with many other Palestinians......so you/they will continue on their road of misery......as I said before.....it's their choice......ps google ghandi.....the alternate spelling is often used, but not correct, and no, I won't call you names....you're just not thinking......

you're just not thinking......

#131 | Posted by skizziks

Israel Navy ships turn back boat carrying Gaza humanitarian aid

Israel Navy ships forced a boat trying to deliver food and medical supplies to Gaza to return to Cyprus early Thursday.

Free Gaza group spokeswoman Mary Hughes-Thompson said Israeli naval vessels surrounded the 66-foot (20-meter) Greek-flagged boat off the coast of southern Lebanon and threatened to open fire if it did not turn back.

Tom seems to be to either an Iranian or Syrian who wants the Palestinians to keep dying and living in misery. Tom is not the first person to visit this blog spreading poisoned propaganda.

So Tom, you want the Palestinians to keep suffering and dying. You keep calling me an imbecile, but it seems to me that you are a prick who wants the rocketing to continue so that the Palestinians can keep dying.

The Iranians and Syrians are cowards who are willing to spill the last drop of Palestinian blood, they will pay for rockets and bombs, and keep the Palestinians in misery & subjugation for as many generations as possible.

Tom, you are sub-human, and the people you serve are sub-human.

Tom, you are sub-human, and the people you serve are sub-human.

#133 | Posted by skizziks

Ah, the "only good Indian is a dead Indian" line

**** another love tap by the good guys?
......#132 | Posted by Bani ****

......there are no "good guys" in a battle.....
...pls review my posts....I am not advocating for Israel....the point I am trying to make is that the Palestinians are defeating themselves with the rocketing.....the rocketing is paid for by Iran and Syria, who want as many dead Palestinians as possible.....Hamas has sold out to the Iranians and Syrians, and instead of doing whats good for the Palestinians, Hamas is allowing the Palestinians to be destroyed.......

....I also said that Palestinians could get more of what they want with peaceful negotiations than with rocketing, they could live happy, peaceful lives.....but regretably....their leadership has sold them out for generations in the past.....and possible will do so for generations in the future....

.....SPELLCHECK PLS TOM......gotta make sure the imbecile didn't make another spelling mistake......your Iranian masters would be displeased if you let one through without insult......

Ah, the "only good Indian is a dead Indian" line

#134 | Posted by Bani

.....not at all......Tom is a sell out.....advocating for the death of Palestinians...anyone who advocates for the death of a people is sub-human........

.....he is advocating for the death of the Palestinians so that his Iranian and Syrian masters can be pleased......

Skizz,
could you comment on this post?

#119 | Posted by Prolix247

***Skizz,
could you comment on this post?
#119 | Posted by Prolix247 ****

.....sure.....

*** It is about International Law and Genocide.***

as for international law, I would say its 50/50 if any world court could make anything stick.....the Israelis were responding to the rocketing, so they do have a defense to that charge.......as for Genocide, with only two thousand dead after 20 days, and a handful of dead Israeli civilians, I don't think you could make a charge of Genocide stick......I mean the US killed 600,000 Iraqi civilians and no one is talking Genocide there, ....

****Of Course Israel has the capacity to kill all the women and children in Gaza which is very clear that is their intention.****

......if it was Israel's intention to kill women and children, they could have killed tens of thousands by now without exposing their soldiers to harm...they could have just matched every rocket with a howitzer shell lobbed indiscriminately into Gaza.....besides.....what would killing women and children accomplish ??.......no......their target is Hamas ......

**** Now that Israel has attacked both UN Schools (two now), UN Headquarters and UN Humanitarian Aid storage facilities (medical and food) the international community will now hold court. *****

......the UN is ineffective at the best of times...at the worst, they are stooges, sometimes of the west, sometimes of the east, sometimes of the middle east......the international community may make noise.....but they did nothing to help Rwanda, where two million or more died, nothing to help Darfur, where one million died, nothing to help Iraq, where six hundred thousand died......

......they will do what they have always done.....there will be no saviours for the Palestinian people......

Thank's Skizz

"as for Genocide, with only two thousand dead after 20 days, and a handful of dead Israeli civilians, I don't think you could make a charge of Genocide stick"

Don't you think blowing up humanitarian aid of medicine and food while blocking shipments of food and medicine from entering Gaza will not lead to genocide? There are about 1.4 million people in Gaza.

..............................
......

".if it was Israel's intention to kill women and children, they could have killed tens of thousands by now without exposing their soldiers to harm...they could have just matched every rocket with a howitzer shell lobbed indiscriminately into Gaza.....besides.....what would killing women and children accomplish ??.......no......their target is Hamas ......"

With over 1000 people killed and half women and children and only 13 Israeli soldier killed I would say you described exactly what is going on. The purpose is to create such a condition of death and deprivation that the Palestinians will turn against Hamas.

..............................
........

"the UN is ineffective at the best of times...at the worst, they are stooges, sometimes of the west, sometimes of the east, sometimes of the middle east.."

So it is okay to attack the UN posts?

Prolix

There is not a clean way to run a war. I am not a big fan of Israel, I am not defending all of their actions.

What I have tried to point out, is that the Palestinians are defeating themselves.

Hamas is being paid by Syria and Iran to ensure that Palestinians remain living in misery and degredation.

All I wish for the Palestinians is leadership that would take their best interests at heart, right now they do not have that. Hamas is a puppet of Syria and Iran, and they do not want a good life for Palestinians.

Iran and Syria would have Palestinians sacrificed for generations to come to lives of utter misery, I think that all peoples deserve better.

I understand Skizz,

There may not be a clean way to run a war BUT there is an honorable way to do it.

This is Israel's mistake.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, they have nothing left but to fight till the end. There is no other option left to them.

I too am a great admirer of non-violent civil disobedience (I studied it in college) but it won't work in this case. Hamas did not break the last cease fire, Israel did.

The Israeli's are determined to get the Gaza by hook or by crook and have no sympathy for the Palestinians. They truly want them all dead.

The world is watching...

"Hamas wears no uniform and has no membership rosters, so how can you say only 1% have died. "

Israel estimates there are 25,000 Hamas fighters dumbass. They also estimate they have killed 450 i.e. less than 2%.

Why can't Israeli cheerleaders to elementary math? Oh yeah, they are incredibly stupid.

Elementary math for dumbass Israeli cheerleaders

Even if the entire 1000 dead were Hamas fighters, which NOBODY BELIEVES, Hamas would have lost 4% of their forces.