So what. As long as equipment was targted or it was used for illum, too frigging bad.

Nasty stuff, hopefully it's hitting the ones firing the rockets

Israel is so so interested in not hurting those civilians.

***"Israel is so so interested in not hurting those civilians."***

So is Hamas, Hezbollah...

Weapons of Mass Destruction for us AOK.

Weapons of Mass Destruction for them, evil terrorism.

So is Hamas, Hezbollah...

The stats just don't support you so prove it.

How many Israeli civilians have been killed??????

Some people are just brain dead and have no clue but to push out idiocy.

Too funny the tough guys of HamAss that represent the Palestinian people are now acting like crybabies once again because their enemy Israel is shooting back oh boo hoo my heart bleeds for the woman and children killers of HamAss. What problem does HamAss have with the carnage they started by not only firing first but firing day after day after day. Do they not remember their own bullshit they should be celebrating not bitching about a fair fight Israel is helping them reach paradise and seventy virgins they should thank Israel for making them Martyrs in yet another religion of peace Jihad.

What is funny is Israel seems to know where all the leaders and people who are hamas live and hide out but can't seem to locate where the cub scout made missle are being launched.

The seem to get intel. just like bush.

Lets see how many dumbfucks don't read the article...

Crappus,
The only people you'll see complaining about Hamass's inability to kill with their constant rocket barages are stupid shits like you.
Where is all of the death and destruction that Hamass promised the Israeli troops once they entered Gaza? Remember all that boasting about all of the soldiers that would be killed if they dare eneter?

I thought Hamass was itching for a ground fight? Do those mutts know it's hard to fight a ground war in gaza when they're hiding in Egypt, Lebanon, and Iran?

...but can't seem to locate where the cub scout made missle are being launched.

#8 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-01-12 09:04 AM | Reply

They know, and so do the rest of us See those craters...

What is funny is Israel seems to know where all the leaders and people who are hamas live and hide out but can't seem to locate where the cub scout made missle are being launched.
The seem to get intel. just like bush.
#8 | Posted by moneywar

Right now the more sophisticated weapons with a longer range are being made in Iran and China, it will be more difficult to smuggle them through the tunnel network however as Israel found that. I just hope this Jihad turns out well for HamAss and as many of them as possible get to go instantly to paradise and claim their seventy virgins God willing of course. I do wonder what does the woman who blows herself up at the local market do with the seventy virgins. If she is a lesbian I am sure she would like that but what if she is straight does she get to trade them in for seventy chip and dale guys...

"The chief doctor at Nasser Hospital in southern Gaza said he treated several victims there with serious burns that 'might' have been caused by phosphorus. He said, however, that he did not have the resources or expertise to say with certainty what caused the injuries...Human Rights Watch 'has not' been able to confirm whether there have been any civilian casualties from phosphorus."

You would think the media would get better information before they stir up the masses into an uproar. HRW don't know either yet they release this story.

13.2 Million Jewish vs 1.5 BILLION that follow Islam and the world roots for Israel to fall.

In '07-'08, Hamas fired 4681 rockets & mortars into Israel. This loon thinks that Israel's attacks are unnecessary?

Shameful liberal press...

The former Shin Bet chief said that it was common knowledge in Gaza that Hamas holds meetings in the hospital. "Shifa Hospital, which is situated in the more wealthy western part of Gaza City, is a very big hospital, but you can hear from the Palestinians who visit there, it is somewhat of an open secret, that Hamas commanders walk around the hospital, in some instances wearing doctors' robes," he said. "In some cases, the Hamas commanders kick medical teams out of rooms so that they can hold meetings."

Asked why Israel was not acting against Shifa Hospital, Dichter answered that an attack on a hospital could not be carried out "for obvious reasons."

***"How many Israeli civilians have been killed??????

Some people are just brain dead and have no clue but to push out idiocy."***

Oh, so there should be some equality with how many civilians are killed. Maybe Isreal should take a little more time off so the Palestinians can catch up. Fact is that Palestinian groups have been and are attacking civilian targets within Isreal. It's obvious the Palestinians care less for civilian lives. They don't even care about their own civilians, otherwise why would they continue to attack Isreal with their "cub-scout made missles", provoking Isreal into killing more Palestinians?

And speaking of "cub scout made missles", you obviously have no idea how this type of attack is carried out, or you wouldn't make an idiotic statement like "What is funny is Israel seems to know where all the leaders and people who are hamas live and hide out but can't seem to locate where the cub scout made missle are being launched." There's nothing "funny" about it. Why do you think so many Palestinian civilians get killed?

white phosphorus should not be a problem, unless dickless Hamas 'fighters' are hiding under the skirts of their women and behind children.

They are always legitimate targets: If they use civilians as shields, the war crime is theirs

white phosphorus should not be a problem, unless dickless Hamas 'fighters' are hiding under the skirts of their women and behind children.
They are always legitimate targets: If they use civilians as shields, the war crime is theirs
#16 | Posted by vernon

The implication being that some HamAss fighters have a pair. This is what I like about the DR I always learn something I thought ALL HamAss "fighters" were dickless, which begs the question what would a so called " HamAss fighter " do with so many virgins. I just hope they find paradise A.S.A.P the IDF and God willing of course as that will be the only way to peace...

Hamas' leaders said in an interview that no matter what they won't stop firing rockets. That's like telling a guy you F'd his sister from the floor of the bar where he just put you with his fists.

For the life of me I don't understand the Palestinians. They cannot win this game with force and violence. Even if we and every other nation cut off Israel completely they still would beat down the Palestinians every time. Its time for the Palestinians to surrender and negotiate.

no you idiots, the record is clear

Hamas fires rockets into Israel because Israel has surrounded Gaza and the West Bank, controlling the flow of all food, medicine, oil and other commodities necessary for survival. Hamas is a resistance, just as surely as Norwegians and Frenchmen resisted Nazi occupation.

"Hamas fires rockets into Israel because Israel has surrounded Gaza and the West Bank, controlling the flow of all food, medicine, oil and other commodities necessary for survival"

And firing the rockets and mortars into Israel has opened up the flow of food, medicine, oil and commodities necessary for survival?

Its been 60 years... 60 years of getting the rear ends kicked in by Israel. Its time for them to stop and work out a deal. All this fighting is doing is making things worse for the Palestinians, it doesn't hurt Israel in the slightest.

no you idiots, the record is clear
Allied forces fire rockets into Berlin because Hitler has attacked Europe and the United States, controlling the flow of all food, medicine, oil and other commodities necessary for Germanys survival. Hitler's Nazis are a resistance group of good ole boys just getten down on the farm
#19 | Posted by nutcase

Hmmmm if you substitute Allied forces for HamAss and Germany for Gaza strip this post makes sense...

Once again, let us recap a few important points:

Palestinians voted overwhelmingly for Hamas to be their political leaders.

About Hamas:

1. They are a terrorist group! Apparently this fact has been lost by libtard sentimentalism.

2. Hamas now holds power in Gaza. Does that mean anything anymore? Nope, they're legitimate cuz democracy trumps terrorism, so let's talk to them!

3. They have murdered hundreds in suicide bombings. So what? It's their democratically legitimized civil rights to kill infidels and jews.

4. They have murdered their fellow arabs with brutality and callousnes. So what? after all they're just Arabs which Hamas is killing, knee capping or just flinging off of rooftops. It's a cultural thing...simply the rif-raf of Arab culture.

5. They have shot over 7000 rockets into israel aimed at civilians. Again, big deal! It's their democratic right, cuz they're now legitimate via democracy. Remember, Democracy trumps terrorism.

6. They advocate the genocide of all Jews. No big deal! Afterall, think of the poor Palestinian children and their schools used as shields for brave Hamas fighters. If Israel targets innocent children then they deserve genocide.

Now that being said, if the world insists on "proportional exchanges" AND that we should hold talks with this democratically legitimized group...Indeed, if libtards of this world insist that we respect their heroes by "having talks" with such heroes like Hugo Chavez, Che, Castro, Pol Pot, Arafat and others...If we should also respect the great ideals of these progressives, ideals on social justice, then let's do it! With Hamas, Chavez, Castro, Pol Pot, Arafat and other great progressives as our heroes and models for diplomacy, let's sit down and have talks!

Let's have communication on par with these great progressives.

Ok, then let our new motto be:

DEATH TO HAMAS!

I now advocate the genocide on any and all members of Hamas of any wing, political or military, and the complete use of any means possible to kill, torture and hurt Hamas and their families.

Bounties should be established on heads of Hamas, Hezbollah, Leftist Radical leaders that we don't like and say to them, since we admit you hold power and will talk to us and you are committed to our destruction, we too hold power and are committed to destroy you!

I no longer accept a "2 state" solution, Any and all islamic/persian or arabs that attempt war against israel shall either be kneecapped or executed and their families homes be demolished and the grounds salted.

But we can talk! Hamas, please let's have tea! And oh, by the way - Your brave captured fighters? We will be keeping them in pits in the ground and they will not have any contact with the outside world.

Your killed comrades? Their bodies will be stitched into pig skins and fed to the sharks!

So when can we have tea? I like a little rum in mine.

Oh Hamas, Hezbollah and any others? I know a great pulled pork BBQ place that is great for sipping some scotch and eating those pork sandwiches! Shall I book a table for you and me? Let's talk peace!

Yours always,

TheOneBS

***"Hamas fires rockets into Israel because Israel has surrounded Gaza and the West Bank, controlling the flow of all food, medicine, oil and other commodities necessary for survival"***

And why do you think Isreal has done this?

Here is the HamAss motto for warfare "Woman and Children First" infants are even better to hide behind and hospitals are the safest place to hide. Remember better a thousand women and children die than even one brave Palestinian HamAss piece of shit.
Pussy be upon you to hide you and keep you safe...

hamas is not a terrorist organization. until you remove your head and acknowledge same you haven't got a clue and you are part of the problem

Israel has occupied Palestinian land and taken water from four Arab Nations as a hedgmonic expansionist strategy. That is why they started the 67 war. That is why they build illegal settlements. That is why they occupy Jerusalem. That is why they have NEVER compromised on a single point when negotiating with the Palestinians. The only reason Israel removed Jewish settlements from Gaza was they didn't want to hit any of them as they rain on Gaza today.

hamas is not a terrorist organization.#25 | Posted by Georgeisadrunk

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL and a big HA HA HA HA

Congratulations you get the multiple Dumbass of the year award. In other news Rosanne Barr has just been named Miss congeniality...

if iran "wipes israel off the map" - how many years until it is inhabitable again? have those who wish the demise of israel given that question any thought?

ataxpayer still being the pussy huh

israel knows so much that in 60 years it still doesn't have peace.

lets just let them keep doing what they are doing.

their leaders like the never elected olmert knows whats up.

and hamas IS a terrorist organization
and so is the israeli government

nanc

just want to clarify

iran said God will wipe israel off the map.
iran will never go to war with israel.

they may go into a proxy battle by funding israel's enemies

but never direct war.

that is unless israel starts it

In regards to post #26, Israel is only able to do those types of things because the Palestinians and the Arab nations keep fighting them. Israel, to the West then doesn't come off as an invader or a bully, it just comes off as a war, and that's what happens in war.

If the Palestinians and Syria and Lebanon all really committed to peace with Israel, then Israel wouldn't be able to get away with illegal settlements or military actions like this one.

The Palestinians should right now announce that they are ceasing all military action against Israel, they should call for immediate face to face talks, and they should demand a UN peacekeeping force enter Palestinian areas to help control the extremists. If they did this, their situation would be drastically better by noon tomorrow.

atax you are an ass and a part of the problem. may you rot in hell, you deserve it

"That is why they have NEVER compromised on a single point when negotiating with the Palestinians."

Wrong AGAIN, NutJob!

It's all good, they're the chosen people. Sit down and stfu while they commit crimes against humanity in their quest for religious destiny.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel because Israel has surrounded Gaza and the West Bank, controlling the flow of all food, medicine, oil and other commodities necessary for survival. Hamas is a resistance, just as surely as Norwegians and Frenchmen resisted Nazi occupation.

#19 | Posted by nutcase
Damn, when you post, it just makes me say damn!

It is always amusing to see the Rtard Hate-Fest in full bloom anytime Israel kills some Palestinans. Any excuse to kill brown skinned people gets the Rtard's little wee-wees as hard as al-dente linguini.

I don't mind who kills who. Just don't use my god damned tax money to pay for it.

The only difference between the fucking racist Isralis and the fucking racist Hamassholes it that the US TAXPAYER pays the fucking tab for one side.

Cut off funding for both sides and the fighting may not stop, but at least we would not be enabling it.

hamas is not a terrorist organization. until you remove your head and acknowledge same you haven't got a clue and you are part of the problem

#25 | Posted by Georgeisadrunk
Damn again. All I can say is damn!

Rtard's little wee-wees as hard as al-dente linguini.

axe -- are you a rightwinger? The reason I ask is because someone in another thread earlier today asked why it is rightwingers who bring up genitalia, and here you are talking about penises. I guess that person was using a broad brush erroneously, too, just like you.

It is always amusing to see the Rtard Hate-Fest in full bloom anytime Israel kills some Palestinans. Any excuse to kill brown skinned people gets the Rtard's little wee-wees as hard as al-dente linguini.

"brown skinned people" ??? LOL...what a dolt! Ishmael and Isaac were both sons of Abraham. If Ishmael was brown skinned, then so was Isaac.

#1 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I've seen you post this before. Willy Pete is not for illumination is is anti-tank, warship stuff NOT Illumination. It burns White Hot and cannot be put out by water (it will explode when hit by water) There are Illumination Rounds specifically design to illuminate a firing range. Illuim Rounds have parachutes on them and will float down to earth while illuminating the battlefield. Willy Pete explodes and falls to earth (not much illumination time or power).

We carried 6 Willy Pete rounds on my ship that we had to hide when we entered France because France will not allow a war ship to dock with Nukes or Banned Weapons which White Phosphorous is. They even came on board to check our inventory before we docked. It is NEVER to be used on civilians. Period!!

1bullshit,

If you read the news you will find that the Isralis are killing their own guys almost as fast at the Pals. 'Friendly Fire' is a bitch. Both sides meet the KKK/Rtard definition of Not White.

- Ishmael and Isaac were both sons of Abraham. If Ishmael was brown skinned, then so was Isaac.

Not necessarily. They had different mothers, dumbass.

Ishmael's was Egyptian.

"The stats just don't support you so prove it.

How many Israeli civilians have been killed??????

Some people are just brain dead and have no clue but to push out idiocy."

Only Moneywar would equate incompetence with having the moral high ground. Even Hamas doesn't use this shitty excuse. Hamas has stated a thousand times that they don't believe Israel has any civilians.

Just because Hamas doesn't manage to kill many Israelis with their rocket and mortar attacks doesn't mean they aren't trying. If you fire rockets at a town, you are obviously trying to murder civilians.

Only Moneywar would equate incompetence with having the moral high ground.

FF

Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than the IDF or mossad is. Those who disagree are victims of a pre-fabricated reality, courtesy of the good ol' u.s.a.

At least these days, the truth is getting out and iraeli propaganda can now be seen for what it is: propaganda.

If you fire rockets at a town, you are obviously trying to murder civilians.

What if you launch them from jets?

Hamas has stated a thousand times that they don't believe Israel has any civilians.

#44 | Posted by Sully

Sully, in a sense they are correct. Have you ever been to Israel? I have, a couple of times. Since everyone (male and female) must serve in the IDF from 18-22 and are always on active duty, they carry their weapons everywhere they go.

Get on the bus, IDF with automatic weapons, Go to the park, IDF picnicking with automatic weapons. Go out to the club at night, IDF dancing with automatic weapons. The IDF are a part of the fabric of Israeli society.

Everyone IS part of the IDF...

What if you launch them from jets?

probably not since those bombs have a higher degree of precision.

But that aside, technically aren't they all civilians? Even the bad guys? As far as I know, Palestein doesn't have a standing army.

"Sully, in a sense they are correct."

In another sense (let's call it reality) they are completely full of shit as most Israelis are not between the ages of 18 and 22.

"What if you launch them from jets?"

The Israelis have been dropping fliers to tell people to get out before the jets come.

So while I wouldn't say that they necessarily care about killing Palestinian civlians, it certainly isn't their objective.

I would say the person who built the rocket launcher on top of the civilian's apartment wants that particular civilian to get killed by Israel more than Israel wants to kill him.

They have ALL been in the IDF (except (I think) Ashkenazim Jews they don't have to join for religious reasons - they are learning accounting). Most stay in the IDF to keep the money coming in just like our Nat'l Guard and they can be called up, just like our Nat'l Guard.

I will let this pass though since you have not seen Israel yourself and cannot possibly understand the comment.

That is why they have NEVER compromised on a single point when negotiating with the Palestinians. - Nutcase

Bullshit.

When Clinton was working so feverishly to try and reach a peace agreement between the 2 factions Israel agreed to capitulate to 98% of Arafat's demands.

Apparently, that wasn't a good enough comprimise for the Palestininans.

How many comprimises have the Palestinians offered?

In a different direction...To all of you Israel haters/Hamas cheerleaders:

Let's pretend you are governing Israel and Hamas is firing rockets into your country from neighborhoods. Precisely how would you deal with the situation; what would you do?

Holy crap, JeffJ! Where the hell you been?!

Holy crap, JeffJ! Where the hell you been?!

#54 | Posted by LetUsReason at 2009-01-12 01:15 PM

Was just thinking the same thing.

The Israelis have been dropping fliers to tell people to get out before the jets come.

Where are they to go? They aren't allowed to leave Gaza.

Check out this newspaper in Israel for a range of Jewish opinion on the current situation. There are many others, but this will give you an idea of how restricted the range of opinion is in the US as compared to Israel:

"Precisely how would you deal with the situation; what would you do?"

Oh come on Jeff, we know what the lefties here will say. They'd surrender and give all their land, food and money to the Palestinians. Then they'd take all 7 million jews and move them somewhere else.

What they don't realize is that even if Israel did move, the savages would be firing mortars at them there too.

atax you are an ass and a part of the problem. may you rot in hell, you deserve it

#33 | Posted by Georgeisadrunk

Georgeisadrunk you are an ass and a part of the problem. may you rot in hell, you deserve it

ataxpayer still being the pussy huh

israel knows so much that in 60 years it still doesn't have peace.

lets just let them keep doing what they are doing.

their leaders like the never elected olmert knows whats up.

and hamas IS a terrorist organization
and so is the israeli government

#29 | Posted by klifferd

klifferd still being the pussy huh

The ignorance level here in the US is really astounding. People who have never even read an Israeli newspaper and have no idea about the checkpoints, etc. are spouting of as if it's some clear morality play of good versus evil. It reminds me of the run up to the Iraq war - ignoramuses riffing off of John Wayne movies or some shit about things they don't even have the slightest clue about.

BETELG,
I wonder how many of these posters have actually been to Israel?

"They have ALL been in the IDF (except (I think) Ashkenazim Jews they don't have to join for religious reasons - they are learning accounting). Most stay in the IDF to keep the money coming in just like our Nat'l Guard and they can be called up, just like our Nat'l Guard."

People under 18 have not been in the IDF. Handicapped people are not in the IDF. People who emigrated to Israel later in life do not serve. Certain religious groups do not serve.

To say there are no Israeli civilians is an outight lie. There is no room for interpretation.

I don't care if you've been there or not because you are a sophist. Reality means shit to you.

"Where are they to go? They aren't allowed to leave Gaza."

When Israel drops a bomb that blow up all of Gaza, that will be a legitimate point.

Until then, they can leave the area of Gaza that is about to be bombed and go to an area of Gaza that is not about to be bombed.

You are one stupid shit.

Going to Israel adds credibility to one's case? I was in Israel in 1984, was Bar Mitzvahed at the Wailing Wall, and went to Tel Aviv, Bethlaham, Jerusalem. We went as close to Lebanon as we could. Does this make my point of view any more credible than anyone elses? Nope, not at all.

Oh come on Jeff, we know what the lefties here will say. They'd surrender and give all their land, food and money to the Palestinians. Then they'd take all 7 million jews and move them somewhere else.

What they don't realize is that even if Israel did move, the savages would be firing mortars at them there too.

~Joe

Joe, you are a Retard of EPIC proportions.

That's not even a straw man thing there that's just you being a massive fucking idiot.

Yer inability to look at or discuss the problem rationally by insisting on viewing the issue from one sdie only is a large part of the problem.

During Bush's time in office the settlements that defy Israel's written word in the region have increased by almost fifty percent. That's not counting the illegal settlements set up by the crazier Jewish hardliners. The Halliburton Wall (paid for by your tax dollars) is dividing up communities, cutting people off from family, water and medical care and generally strangling the life out of the Palestinian people. Are the Palestinian leadership "bad actors" in this tragedy? No shiat. Can we understand their mad actions as the desperate acts of a desperate people? We should beable to if we are not blinded by propaganda, hate and a previously held agenda. Has Israel ever shown a real commitment to a two state solution that involves real autonomy for the Palestinian people? Hell, no. In fact, the nuttier ones amongst them insist that Palestine is not a nation or a people and that Israel is, despite the fact that Israel is the more recent artificial construct in the region. The biggest obstcle to peace in this region is the US because of all the one sided support it shows Israel that prevents global public pressure from being exerted on Israel with full force.

America needs to step back at the very least and if it wants to do sommat useful for a change it needs to actively pressure Israel to seek a peace solution that goes beyond a mere ceasefire and/or truce cos that shit just don't cut it.

Israel can no longer be allowed to treat the Palestinians like they themselves were treated in the Ghettos of Warsaw.

Be Well.

Thanks for the concern, gentlemen (I am assuming you are a guy, Lettuce).

The holidays were ridiculously busy around here.

Our PC resides where we always put our Christams tree (This year's was a 12-footer!).

When we moved the PC to the basement, we lost our internet connection and were too busy to deal with it.

Now that the house is back in order and the PC is back in the living room, we took the time to re-establish our internet hookup.

PS to Lettuce - if you are a chick, please don't take offense that to me, the tenor of your posts indicates you are a dude.

Until then, they can leave the area of Gaza that is about to be bombed and go to an area of Gaza that is not about to be bombed.

You are one stupid shit.

#63 | Posted by Sully at 2009-01-12 01:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't argue your obvious edge in intelligence. You are quite a bright one.

Has Israel ever shown a real commitment to a two state solution that involves real autonomy for the Palestinian people?

How about the deal the President Clinton attempted to broker?

#65 | Posted by dethspud at 2009-01-12 01:36 PM

I agree with much of what you said. Apparently in your haste to disagree with me and call me a "retard," you forgot that whatever it is you just posted had nothing to do with what I said.

How about the deal the President Clinton attempted to broker?

#68 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-01-12 01:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, what about that?

No worries, Niceville... oh sorry, Jeff. Damnit, don't call me Lettuce!

And you have the gender correct, never fear. Kinda thought it was obvious with some of my posts on other threads.

#62 | Posted by Sully

Your kidding right?

For one, children are not excluded as targets or being called terrorists if they are from Gaza Right? You know the future terrorists argument.

Eventually all those Israeli children will grow up and be part if the IDF right? Future warriors.

If you read my post I did show the excluded tribe that does not have to serve. All though they do serve the government which would be a legitimate target.

As far as the elderly and infirm, well the elderly have already served and the disabled may have.

so, who is in denial?

So what. As long as equipment was targted or it was used for illum, too frigging bad.

#1 | Posted by 101Chairborne

The rationale is, of course, that the Willy Pete is being used purely fer illum but as 101 Airhead knows (or damn well should) the reality is that it is being used in Iraq offensively by American forces as part of a "shake & bake" combination whereby the phosphurus rounds are interchanged with HE rounds in order to kill suspected insurgents.

Whether they burn to death by WP rounds or are blown to bits by the HE does not seem to be of any particular concern to the Pentagon who orders it's use here.

As Prolix mentions above this shit is considered illegal in many parts of the world and it damn well should be.

Along with Depleted Uranium munitions.

Be Well.

Yeah, what about that?

Israel agreed to 98% of Palestine's demands and Arafat walked away.

Damnit, don't call me Lettuce!

Will do, bro.

Along with Depleted Uranium munitions.

I did some checking on those the last time they were a topic and the WHO deemed them not to be hazardous from a 'dirty bomb' aspect.

Israel agreed to 98% of Palestine's demands and Arafat walked away.

Really?

Can you support that outside of editorials?

Spud,

When Hamas fires rockets into Israel, how should the Israeli government react; what should they do?

I am seeing an awful lot of criticisms of Israel on this thread, but am not getting any answers to my question.

Can you support that outside of editorials?

Can you refute it?

"I didn't argue your obvious edge in intelligence. You are quite a bright one."

No, what you did do was declare everyone else "ignorant" while spewing nonsense.

You also didn't - and can't - refute what I said about leaving one area of Gaza for another after Israel warns that the first area is about to be bombed.

Jeff J-
Here's a clip you might enjoy, just for kicks, and I'll let Zbigniew deconstruct your bullshit better than I ever could:

Can you support that outside of editorials?

#76 | Posted by BetelG at 2009-01-12 01:48 PM

Palestinians reject Clinton peace plan

The U.S. proposal would offer land to the Palestinians, including parts of Jerusalem, but would take away the right of four million Palestinian refugees to return to the home they fled when Israel was created in 1948.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat had accepted the proposals last week, but with conditions and only if there were amendments.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak repeated his earlier endorsement of the plan shortly after the Palestinian rejection.

I've seen you post this before. Willy Pete is not for illumination is is anti-tank, warship stuff NOT Illumination. It burns White Hot and cannot be put out by water...
#41 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 12:31 PM | Reply

Yes, it is used for illum, among other things.

You sat miles off shore, so spare me your knowledge of what WP is for.

It's used to destroy equipment (tanks being equipment, but commo is equipment, weapons are equipment, ammo is equipment).

Also Prolicker,
What about Israeli's that aren't yet 18 years old, are they soldiers too? I've seen little Pali mutts armed with AK's but I've yet to see Israeli youth carrying uzi's, m4's, or carrying anti-tank weapons.
I enjoyed my time in Israel. It was a great place to visit. It sure was a relief to get away from the filthy egyptians for a couple weeks at a time.

I agree with much of what you said. Apparently in your haste to disagree with me and call me a "retard," you forgot that whatever it is you just posted had nothing to do with what I said.

Sorry, Spud just luffs calling people Retards.

Is a problem.

Wot you sed?

You basically called the left a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, which is a massive oversimplification.

Here's the deal.

If forced to pick sides here, Spud would obviously side with the Isralis. Spud is more familiar with Jews than Arabs and finds much more in common with them. Also, Israel is arguably the much more progressive state in that it functions as a democracy, accepts women's rights and even the rights of gay folks, which puts it light years ahead of the rest of the region.

Also, until the Arab world comes out with their own version of Jon Stewart, one who's even half as funny and insightful it aint even a contest.

That all sed, nobody on the left is suggesting moving 7 million Israelis anywhere else. Admittedly, there are fringe wingnuts in blogworld who think Israel should be dissolved but they are not of the right or of the left, as a rule.

They are actually from the planet "Moonbat" and deserve to be mocked incessantly in blogworld until they either grow up or go away.

Hope that clarifies things somewot.

Be Well.

Prolix - The problem is that you don't understand what a civilian is.

An ederly veteran who is no longer on active duty is a civilian.

A child who has yet to serve (and may in fact never serve) is a civilian.

To say that there are no Israeli civlians is an ouright lie.

I also never said a Palestinian child is not a civilian. You made that up.

You can engage in as much sophistry as you want where it pertains to this point but in reality, I am right and you are wrong. There are plenty of Israeli civilians and Hamas willfully targets them.

BetelG,

Whose source is better, yours or Kanrei's?

Kanrei-
The negotiations continued until Sharon was in place and Bush was US president. They were then abandoned, but not by Arafat.

"You basically called the left a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, which is a massive oversimplification."

No, my post was an exaggeration of what the Israel-bashers here would say in an attempt to avoid an honest answer to Jeff's question. I can see how it came off that way though.

Wow, I don't know about anyone else here but I've heard, "Willy Pete" enough times for 2009.

They were then abandoned, but not by Arafat.

Take that up with the news and history books and scholars or present proof otherwise, in your own words, from a source "outside of editorials"

Kanrei-
You've posted one, but while the negotiations were still ongoing. Your claim of settled fact has not been established, and Jeff has posted nothing.

#82 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I answered your questions above because I already know your arguments along with all you guys who are just short of understanding. I think that;'s rather nice of me don't you?

Did you see my post about Willy Pete? You are regurgitating what I said. Except you left out the part about the Illumination Rounds, why is that?

You see I did NGFS (Naval Gun Fire Support) so I provided the cover (along with the illumination) for you guys not bright enough to get a better job than grunt.

So what about Illum Rounds bright guy? Are they a figment of my imagination?

Spud,

When Hamas fires rockets into Israel, how should the Israeli government react; what should they do?

I am seeing an awful lot of criticisms of Israel on this thread, but am not getting any answers to my question.

~JeffJ

Whaa? Jeff?

Yo Jeff, where you been hiding, man?

In terms of yer question?

Obviously the Israelis have every right to defend themselves in a proportional way.

Howsabout sending attack helicopters right away at the time of the attacks to blow the shit out of wotever the Pals are using as platforms to deliver sed rockets?

Wot they are doing right now is largely like swatting at flies with a hand grenade.

Disproportional and guaranteed to increase the desperation and misery index which in turn guarantees more missles.

A classic vicious cycle.

Israel needs to take a step back and see the larger picture which is that they cannot be allowed to slowly commit genocide by starvation, dehydration and by preventing access to medical care.

Israel's ability to manipulate global news services so that only one side of this issue is discussed is over with the advent of blogworld.

Eventually someone in the Muslim world will be so past caring that they will enable Palestine to nuke Israel which is of course a scenario that Israel is and should be eager to avoid.

Either a two state solution with true autonomy for the Palestinian people or a one state solution wherein both Jew and Arab live side by side in peace singing Kumbaya around the campfire as they toast s'mores and joke about the "bad old days".

Personally, Spud finds the first suggestion more do-able.

Be Well.

Bet,
I know it is Wiki, but it is a good summary and also provides links.

There are plenty of Israeli civilians and Hamas willfully targets them.

#84 | Posted by Sully

Are you willing to admit Israel does the same? It seems most of the dead Palestinians are civilians.

Prolicker,
I'm going to guess that the people calling in the fire know a tad bit more about what it's for and why, than say the gun bunny (the dumbest shits in the military).
I'm going to guess that you fall in to the dumbshit category because I clearly said "It's used for illum among other things". It's primary purpose being for destroying equipment.

What is it you are failing to comprehend, be specific.

From the Wiki link:

According to The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East, "most of the criticism for [the] failure [of the 2000 Camp David Summit] was leveled at Arafat."[10]

Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% (after many years - see section on territory) of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused.

It seems most of the dead Palestinians are civilians.

#95 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:08 PM

Of course, Hamas has no uniform and no identifying marks, so any and all dead memebers of Hamas can and are counted as civilian deaths.

Here's a start:

The talks were discontinued on January 27, 2001 as a result of the upcoming Israeli elections. The winner of those elections, Ariel Sharon, refused to resume the negotiations after his victory.

Obviously the Israelis have every right to defend themselves in a proportional way.

Isn't the object of conflict to out-gun your competition?

Why should they put their attack helicopters, and those piloting them, at risk to those very same rockets when a more sophisticated albeit less accurate alternative exists which would result in minimal (if any) Israeli casualties.

PS - thanks for actually answering the question.

101,
I also never said I did not like my stays in Israel. I loved my time there. Beautiful generous people. Their government does not serve them well.

I just calls em like I sees them.

This is an enjoyable clip. Watch it if you haven't yet:

So what about Illum Rounds bright guy? Are they a figment of my imagination?

#91 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:05 PM | Reply

Tell me stupid, what exactly do Illum Rounds destroy?
You see, when you're miles off shore, and time isn't a factor in your safety, and keeping eyes on a target isn't an issue, illum rounds may make you happy.

In the real world, time is of the essence. Trucks move, mortar positions move, commo moves.
Bracket once, twice maybe, then fore for effect.

WP detsrtoys and lights up the area for a while. Why do you think it was used in Fallujah dummy?

The good news is nobody asks the E3 for their permission to fire. We "tell" you what we want to eat, where we want you to pull duty, and how many push-ups to do.

Bet,
Those are different talks. They had nothing to do with Clinton.

JeffJ and I are talking about the Camp David Peace Accords from July 5th to 21, 2000.

Of course, Hamas has no uniform and no identifying marks, so any and all dead memebers of Hamas can and are counted as civilian deaths.

#98 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-01-12 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Really? What of the 40% of dead that are women and children?

"Obviously the Israelis have every right to defend themselves in a proportional way."

Proportional way?

All a proportional response does is ensure that the fighting continues on indefinitly.

Should we have acted proportionally to the Pearl Harbor attacks?

Get,
The first part of your link shows this is a new set of talks.

The summit took place against the backdrop of the failed Camp David 2000 Summit between Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak and the Palestinian President Yasser Arafat, and a Palestinian Intifada that commenced against Israel.

JeffJ and I are talking about the Camp David Peace Accords from July 5th to 21, 2000.

#104 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-01-12 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is that why you posted a CBC news article from Jan. 2001 to attempt to prove your point?

What of the 40% of dead that are women and children?

#105 | Posted by BetelG at 2009-01-12 02:15 PM

Women and children don't fight and assuming they don't, that still leaves a 60% exaggeration.

So what. As long as equipment was targted or it was used for illum, too frigging bad.

#1 | Posted by 101Chairborne

My response -
I've seen you post this before. Willy Pete is not for illumination is is anti-tank, warship stuff NOT Illumination. It burns White Hot and cannot be put out by water (it will explode when hit by water) There are Illumination Rounds specifically design to illuminate a firing range. Illuim Rounds have parachutes on them and will float down to earth while illuminating the battlefield. Willy Pete explodes and falls to earth (not much illumination time or power).

That's right back away from your rant because Proliker called you on it and you know I'm right.

As far as being dumb, when did you ever troubleshoot and operate both a Sperry Univac Weapons control computer, Spg 60 Radar unit or spk 9 radar unit.

I passed my ASVABS...

Yo Jeff, where you been hiding, man?

Rights Group: Israel Using Incendiary Bombs

Thanks for the concern, gentlemen (I am assuming you are a guy, Lettuce).

The holidays were ridiculously busy around here.

Our PC resides where we always put our Christams tree (This year's was a 12-footer!).

When we moved the PC to the basement, we lost our internet connection and were too busy to deal with it.

Now that the house is back in order and the PC is back in the living room, we took the time to re-establish our internet hookup.

PS to Lettuce - if you are a chick, please don't take offense that to me, the tenor of your posts indicates you are a dude.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-01-12 01:38 PM

I've also been watching as much hockey as possible. My boys seem to be recovering from their Cup hangover and are starting to revert back to form.

Kanrei-
Well, then let's return to that point:

"Of course, Hamas has no uniform and no identifying marks, so any and all dead memebers of Hamas can and are counted as civilian deaths."

Where did you get that "fact"?

Is that why you posted a CBC news article from Jan. 2001 to attempt to prove your point?

It fit your criteria of being a non-editorial source.

So what if they were still reporting on an event that had occurred 6 months prior?

You are moving the goalposts.

Bet,
Follow this please.

The talks were in July 2000

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat had accepted the proposals last week, but with conditions and only if there were amendments. December 2000

Story published January 2001.

Sorry things take time.

Where did I get the fact that Hamas is a terrorist group without a uniform? ROFLMAO

So what if they were still reporting on an event that had occurred 6 months prior?

???

Did you read Kanrei's article?

Where did you get that "fact"?

Are you trying to suggest that Hamas not only wears uniforms but doesn't utilize human shields?

#103 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Are you saying that you had Willy Pete fired on top of you for Illumination? I say Bullshit. We would never use Willy Pete for NGFS, NEVER, too dangerous for our guys.

You can adjust how long an Illum round will burn by setting the timer in the nosecone. You can have it float or you can have it detonate just above head. Your choice..

101-
re: What is the uniform of a Hamass "soldier". Can anyone show me their "uniform", their identifying insignia, etc?

It seems as if about half of them pose as women and children to make libtards feel bad when their body parts make it into photographs.....

#116 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Nice deflection...

Spud: Along with Depleted Uranium munitions.

JJ: I did some checking on those the last time they were a topic and the WHO deemed them not to be hazardous from a 'dirty bomb' aspect.

You'll find that the DoD considers them to be no problem at all. That studies paid for by the US tend to find the health risks "overblown" and that the further you get away from the Pentagon and the US generally the grimmer the scenarios get. Until you eventually find studies that conclude that DU in Iraq and Afghanistan is causing abnormalities in fetal development at horrifying rates.

So much for the "Party of Life", eh?

Basically, we are talking about a munition made from nuclear waste that has a half life of 4.5 billion years, that is used by the ton by the American military. 300 tons in Operation Desert Storm alone. Even more have been used to date in Operation Iraqi Liberation (to use the original name).

Anybody who thinks this stuff is not deadly in the long term is fooling themselves.

Be Well.

That's right back away from your rant because Proliker called you on it and you know I'm right.

As far as being dumb, when did you ever troubleshoot and operate both a Sperry Univac Weapons control computer, Spg 60 Radar unit or spk 9 radar unit.

I passed my ASVABS...

#110 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag

Who backed away from what? All one has to do is google WP illum to see you're clearly full of shit.

As for troubleshooting your equipment...Good for you dummy. I wasn't stupid enough, or the least bit gay, so I didn't join the Navy.

Why aren't you addressing the real world scenario of why calling in illum rounds isn't the most practical idea? I'll save you the time...It's because you sat in the safety of a naval ship. Practicality means nothing to you.

Gun bunnies did what they were told.

It seems as if about half of them pose as women and children to make libtards feel bad when their body parts make it into photographs.....

So, are you blaming Israel because Hamas chooses to utilize women and children as human shields?

Please explain your position as you are coming off as a "useful idiot".

Your positions are frequently reasonable it's just akin to pulling teeth to actually get you to directly state them.

That studies paid for by the US tend to find the health risks "overblown"

The information that I got my comment from came from the World Health Organization which to the best of my knowledge is not a puppet of the US.

So, are you blaming Israel because Hamas chooses to utilize women and children as human shields?

Whatever, Jeff.

Later.

Are you saying that you had Willy Pete fired on top of you for Illumination? I say Bullshit. We would never use Willy Pete for NGFS, NEVER, too dangerous for our guys.

You can adjust how long an Illum round will burn by setting the timer in the nosecone. You can have it float or you can have it detonate just above head. Your choice..

#119 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:25 PM | Reply

How stupid are you? Do you see anything even remotely close to that in anything I've posted?

We are talking about using it offensively. Nobody is calling in WP for defensive measures (see, this is a perfect example of some dummy like you on a ship not knowing shit other than how to clean your equipment and firing your gun when told to).

You are the perfect example of what I was saying earlier...You just do what you're told to do by the people with eyes on the target.

I don't need my AO illuminated, I need their ao illuminated...with fire, and lots of it. I want to see what's destroyed, preferably by watching it burn.

Whatever, Jeff.

That's how you came accross.

If my interpretation of your position is different than what you intend, please clarify.

PS - the use of declarative statements would be extremely helpful.

Where did I say Offense or Defense? Either situation would apply. Are you confused? Or just spouting crap to save face?

Boyd, Badweek, Cooper, and Barney can't seem to come up with Hamas uniforms and easily identifiable insignias.

I'll bet that tool runs away without answering a direct question, again...

Boyd,
Where are your links to a Hamas uniform? How about soldiers wearing the insignia of Hamas? No? Nothing?
Maybe your wife has an extra one in the closet you could show us?

BetelG,

Here is an example of a solid clarification:

I agree with much of what you said. Apparently in your haste to disagree with me and call me a "retard," you forgot that whatever it is you just posted had nothing to do with what I said.

Sorry, Spud just luffs calling people Retards.

Is a problem.

Wot you sed?

You basically called the left a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, which is a massive oversimplification.

Here's the deal.

If forced to pick sides here, Spud would obviously side with the Isralis. Spud is more familiar with Jews than Arabs and finds much more in common with them. Also, Israel is arguably the much more progressive state in that it functions as a democracy, accepts women's rights and even the rights of gay folks, which puts it light years ahead of the rest of the region.

Also, until the Arab world comes out with their own version of Jon Stewart, one who's even half as funny and insightful it aint even a contest.

That all sed, nobody on the left is suggesting moving 7 million Israelis anywhere else. Admittedly, there are fringe wingnuts in blogworld who think Israel should be dissolved but they are not of the right or of the left, as a rule.

They are actually from the planet "Moonbat" and deserve to be mocked incessantly in blogworld until they either grow up or go away.

Hope that clarifies things somewot.

Be Well.

#83 | Posted by dethspud at 2009-01-12 01:55 PM

Even when presented in 3rd position, Spud's position is clear.

Where did I say Offense or Defense? Either situation would apply. Are you confused? Or just spouting crap to save face?

#129 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:36 PM | Reply

Stupid,
Why would I, or anyone else call WP or illum in over their own heads as you mentioned in #119?
The only reason anyone would do that would be if they were in a defensive permimeter, unless of course you wanted to give away your own positions to the enemy?

You're a pud that sat miles off of shore, so let's not pretend you have any idea of what the needs of those on the ground are. As I said, that's why the people calling in fire don't ask you what to send, they tell you.

I know I'm not really a part of this "fight" but 101Chairborne did say you could just google White Phosphorus and Illum and you'd get results so I thought I'd give it a try. Got this from the Wiki page:

#127 | Posted by 101Chairborne

You did say Willy Pete was used for illumination and NGFS could rain down on you if the spot or shot is not accurate. You should know this? Why would you take the chance?

Sorry should have kept reading... that statement was later corrected with this one:

"We have learned that some of the information we were provided in the above paragraph is incorrect. White phosphorus shells, which produce smoke, were used in Fallujah not for illumination but for screening purposes, i.e., obscuring troop movements and, according to an article in ... Field Artillery magazine"

However that as well as using it for illumination is legal:

"WP use is legal for purposes such as illumination and obscuring smoke, and the Chemical Weapons Convention does not list WP in its schedules of chemical weapons"

You did say Willy Pete was used for illumination and NGFS could rain down on you if the spot or shot is not accurate. You should know this? Why would you take the chance?

#134 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:42 PM | Reply

HE rounds fall short too, what the fuck is your point?

How did you get so confused as to post your #119?
Who in the world would call WP in on their own position for illum?
Do you have an example of anyone saying anything remotely close to that in this thread? Do you think the Israeli's are claiming they used WP to illum their own area, or do you believe that they used it to illum the enemies AO?...

Seriously, you're fucked up here.

#133 | Posted by GreenDad

Of course they were using on Iraqi troops. If they are in a tank it's all good (it's considered an anti-tank round) I agree with 101 on that. Using it on a building or civilians - War Crime.

The Israeli's are using it to cause ultimate damage and will be held accountable for it.

Using it on a building or civilians - War Crime.

#137 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:47 PM | Reply

If the buildings (bunkers, etc) are housing equipment and combatants then all is good.

101,
I can tell your blood pressure is going through the roof right now because you are not reading my entire posts before answering. I'll give you a break before you have a heart attack.

"Are you willing to admit Israel does the same? It seems most of the dead Palestinians are civilians."

If it were true, I would have no problem saying as much. I am not in love with Israel.

What Israel is targetting are rocket launchers and other Hamas assets, including Hamas members. Those are legitimate targets that have intentionally been placed around and on top of civilians. Does Israel know that it will kill civilians in these operations? Yes. But unlike Hamas' attacks, there main targets are not the civilians. That is why they drop leaflets.

Israel is certainly not deterred by the use of human shields.

White Phosphorus burns hot, bright, and makes a lot of smoke. It's good for burning things, lighting the battlefield, and concealing troop movements. If Israel was really trying to set Gaza alight, they'd be waging a more intensive air campaign and wouldn't even mess with a ground invasion. Make a perimeter around the occupied territory and drop WP, magnesium, or napalm bombs from the air until the fires can draw in enough air to sustain themselves. Israel is waging a nasty urban war, and this kind of stuff is bound to happen. It doesn't justify the civilian deaths that inevitably follow, but this shouldn't be portrayed as some sort of Dresden-like scenario. That being said, I'm sure the neocons and REMF's in the IDF aren't especially heartbroken when bombs, missiles, and flares miss their marks, regardless of what warhead they carry. They'll just buy more from the United States.

JestGetting (Jeff),

You should read your own references:

1. Transfer of Powers to the Palestinians:

The DOP features an agreement in principle regarding a transfer of power and responsibilities to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, so they may have control over their own affairs.

2. The DOP does not prejudge the Permanent Status:

The DOP specifically states that permanent status issues, such as Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements and borders are to be excluded from the interim arrangements and that the outcome of the permanent status talks should not be prejudged or preempted by the interim arrangements. During this period, the Israeli government retains sole responsibility for foreign affairs, defense and borders. Israel's position on Jerusalem remains unchanged. When the DOP was signed, Prime Minister Rabin stated that "Jerusalem is the ancient and eternal capital of the Jewish people." An undivided Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty, with religious freedom for all, is and remains a fundamental Israeli position.

3. Security remains an Israeli responsibility:

In the DOP, Israel and the PLO agree that during the interim period, Israel will remain responsible for security along the international borders and the crossing points to Egypt and Jordan. Israel will also retain responsibility for and the overall security of Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza, the Israeli settlements in those areas, and freedom of movement on roads.

Given what the second and third provisions say, what meaning does the first provision even have?

What Israel is targetting are rocket launchers and other Hamas assets, including Hamas members.

#141 | Posted by Sully

Fair enough, but how do you know this to be true? There IS a media blackout.

I saw a clip last night on ABC which attempted to show a NEW training method the Israelis were using. They attach high explosive to a door or wall and blow it in then enter the building just in case anyone is alive.

The problem with the video. It only showed two IDF members going through a fake prefabricated hole (which happened to be in the shape of the star of David) in a wall without their weapons drawn. Either poor training or propaganda.

The message I received is that when the fighting is done and people enter Gaza we are going to see that buildings were destroyed (by shells) before soldiers got there and without discrimination. It will be chaos.

101,
I can tell your blood pressure is going through the roof right now because you are not reading my entire posts before answering. I'll give you a break before you have a heart attack.

#140 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 02:54 PM | Reply

Not at all. I don't let this place get to me.

I've read your posts. They haven't made a whople lot of sense, but #119 takes the cake. I don't think you have any idea of why you were firing those rounds, which is fine, you didn't need to, but you seem confused none the less.

Until you can explain why anyone would call WP in on their own position, or how you came to that conclusion, I'm afraid you're too far off the mark to continue this discussion.

101,
I was trying to bait you to see if you would state that you had Willy Pete used as NGFS illumination. What you have been posting is you used in from tanks shot at forward targets. I understand that.

What you did not understand is the NGFS comparisons. Totally different bird.

I am glad you don't get too upset about this stuff because it's all our own points of view.

You were talking apples I was talking Oranges about the same thing.

But from my perspective. Willy Pete is not used for illumination, only to burn trough steel.

But from my perspective. Willy Pete is not used for illumination, only to burn trough steel.

#146 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 03:39 PM | Reply |

Or flushing rats out of bunkers, or smokescreens, or illum, or destroying commo, ammo, or killing combatants, etc...

The naval gunners perspective is quite myopic.

"Fair enough, but how do you know this to be true? There IS a media blackout."

Unfortunately for Palestinian civilians, Hamas' tactics will always leave Israel with plausible deniability where civilian deaths are concerned.

If Hamas were to clear the civilians out of certain neighborhoods, which would then be designated as areas set aside for military purposes, Israel would not have reason to bomb civilians. If Israel bombed civilians anyway then you can say Israel is just trying to kill civilians.

But Hamas wants Palestinian civilians to die when Israel responds to rocket attacks. And this is in part because people all over the world swallow the bait every time and demonize Israel when Hamas goes out of its way to have Palestinian civilians bombed.

If the world were to call Hamas out on their tactics, they may be forced to change.

If Hamas were to clear the civilians out of certain neighborhoods, which would then be designated as areas set aside for military purposes, Israel would not have reason to bomb civilians.

But, since the IDF have "reason" to off a few hundred women and children to serve their noble ends, then what the fuck....

BTW, Sully, what does the Israeli gov't hope to accomplish by these actions?

If the world were to call Hamas out on their tactics, they may be forced to change.

To wot?

Buying an army replete with jets and tanks and battle ships so they can come at Israel on sommat resembling an equal footing?

Lying back and doing nothing and allowing Israel to continue to destroy them by killing them without bombs through economic blocades and to steal their land bit by bit settlement by settlement.

Face it, Israel has backed the Pals into a corner and they have no good options left.

Desperate people commit desperate acts, the only true path to peace involves concentrating on making Palestine a less desperate place unfortunately Israels actions to date indicate strongly that their game plan involves continual destabilisation rather than anything constructive.

Be Well.

/Outtie fer a bit
stage left.

#147 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I wasn't a gunner, I was a Firecontrollman (Combat qualified). I ran the entire system, radar to guns to trigger.

I was also ordinance qualified and knew exactly how each projectile would work and for what purpose.

You are the one with the myopic vision as I had the view of the entire battlefield (even in the air) not just where you are located. I saw the whole chessboard. I had many, many, more considerations than you did.

Ground troops are much more expendable than I was.

You are the one with the myopic vision as I had the view of the entire battlefield (even in the air) not just where you are located. I saw the whole chessboard. I had many, many, more considerations than you did.

#151 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 04:18 PM | Reply

Riiiight. You're the one that thinks WP is for tanks only, and never gave consideration to any other factors, yet I'm myopic.

Like I said, you send em when you're told.

101,
There were several different types of shells we used. We had projectiles for smoke, illumination, high explosives, daisy cutters (anti-aircraft), willy pete (anti-tank), and flack. They are all situational. just because you used one type of projectile (at the exclusion of others?) in no way negates what I have posted.

Or flushing rats out of bunkers
(high explosives/smoke generator)

or smokescreens
(smoke generators)

or illum
(Illum round)

or destroying commo, ammo, or killing combatants (high explosives)

Everything you stated could have been used by one of the other projectiles I mentioned.

You know the Navy has been doing this stuff for a long time now and is pretty good at getting the job done.

You should know this since you think your right.

Prolicker,
Why would I waste time with different rounds when one round can solve many problems quickly?
Again, not everyone is sitting safely in a warship miles from danger.

You're not in a hurry, the people on the ground are.

You've shown a complete inability to grasp this concept. This is par for your course.

101,
If you were stupid enough to travel around with highly unstable Willy Pete in the hot desert then that alone tells me much.

Why would you not have high explosives?

I tried to reason with you but you are full of crap.

If you were stupid enough to travel around with highly unstable Willy Pete in the hot desert then that alone tells me much.

Why would you not have high explosives?

I tried to reason with you but you are full of crap.

#155 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2009-01-12 04:56 PM | Reply |

Prolicker,
Where did I say anything about carrying WP with me? You do realize you show your ignorace with every post, right?
You realize Scouts have radios, right? You realize we don't carry 155 and 105's right? You know we call in fire support, right?

You can't possibly think making things up helps you at all, can you? You realize you only prove how little you know outside of your seat miles offshore, right?

Your a scout?
So you run in front of people and say "Over There?"

You are the guys who hold maps upside down and had us blow your troops up. That was you???

You just made me laugh!!!

Yet another example of your incredibly naive view.

I find it hard to believe that even a civilian would have such a misguided view of the military and it's weaponry.

101,
Hey man, I want to call a truce. I will never disparage another serviceman his work. I am sorry for the last remark. I am glad you are here to jab with me. But a scout??? ;>)

Pro,
It's the rules, you have to disparage another vets service. It's in the contract.

Alright man, you win...

"But, since the IDF have "reason" to off a few hundred women and children to serve their noble ends, then what the fuck...."

If you don't think another country firing rockets at your people, however incomentently, is reason to go to war then you aren't a reasonable person.

"BTW, Sully, what does the Israeli gov't hope to accomplish by these actions?"

They are trying to destroy the enemy's capacity to continue firing rockets at them. They are also trying to show Hamas and Hezbollah that firing rockets at Israelis carries a dear price.

If you really didn't know that, you probably shouldn't be posting on this thread.

"To wot?

Buying an army replete with jets and tanks and battle ships so they can come at Israel on sommat resembling an equal footing?"

You are making my point for me. They have ZERO CHANCE of ever defeating Israel. It is stupid and self destructive to try. They should admit to having lost the war and move on. Any other population on the planet would have figure that out 60 years ago. Why people like you encourage these idiots to continue down the path of suicide is a mystery.

"Lying back and doing nothing and allowing Israel to continue to destroy them by killing them without bombs through economic blocades and to steal their land bit by bit settlement by settlement."

What they are choosing now - perpetual war against a superior enemy - is the dumbest option they could possibly choose. It only gains sympathy for the settlers. So your alternative, why not the only one left to them, is preferable to what they are doing now.

What I would do if I were them is make a deal. If they were to give up on the pipe dreams and sue for peace, Israel would have to accept. Hamas is the settlers' biggest ally.

All a proportional response does is ensure that the fighting continues on indefinitly.

Just the way the Brits decision not to nuke Dublin meant there never would be peace in Northern Ireland...

Collective punishment is so stormtrooperish.
Except, of course, when Israel does it. Then, like targetting the UN, its a mitzpah.

And as Israeli Minister Tipzinazi said, "If they won't climb into the ovens voluntarily, what else can we do?"

Okay everybody listen up..... "Put on your pads and face your opponent with your pillow and start fighting when you hear the whistle, stop when you hear the whistle. Good luck!!!" -U.N.

The U.N. sucks! They could not deal with a barfight!

They are trying to destroy the enemy's capacity to continue firing rockets at them. They are also trying to show Hamas and Hezbollah that firing rockets at Israelis carries a dear price.

If you really didn't know that, you probably shouldn't be posting on this thread.

#162 | Posted by Sully

How ignorant and stupid not to be able to understand such a simplistic concept...

The Palistians voted for and support HamAss they are pathetic bastards hiding under the dreses of women and behind their own children they deserve RETURN FIRE...

Everyone step aside and lets see who finishes this fight. Stay out of it UN!

Everyone step aside and lets see who finishes this fight. Stay out of it UN!

#167 | Posted by Unclesam

The U.N is a format utilized to cry piss and moan on behalf of the cowardly "HamAss fighters" that are nothing more than women and children killers sending the innocent to their deaths on the behalf of the religion of peace...

So what. As long as equipment was targted or it was used for illum, too frigging bad.

#1 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I read your post this morning and for the rest of the day I chewed on it.

If I ever meet you in person, I will make your life very miserable. You can take that to the bank.

some interesting thoughts above.
would anyone like to comment on dov weissglas' comments from 2005 about the two state solution being in 'formaldehyde' as far as it relates to the israeli pullout from gaza and the events we see taking place today? i think they're very significant wrt to events currently taking place.

the israeli 'securocracy' (as distinct from her politicians) has a plan to make gaza uninhabitable (ie encourage mass migration thereby nullifying a 'two-state' plan) or, as john bolton on sky news said recently, declare the two-state option unworkable and make gaza the responsibility of egypt and the west bank the responsibility of jordan, both of which he(bolton)noted had peace treaties with israel. even as israel has withdrawn from the gaza strip, their settlement building activities in the west bank has increased, knowing full well this is a bone of contention. are these the actions of a nation that seeks 'peace'? i would venture 'no'.

from what i understand, hamas itself is not a homogenous organisation as such. a cell in beit zenoun that launches rockets does not answer to k.meshal in damascus. but it is a moniker of convenience to say that all cells are hamas and hamas fires rockets.

the lesson that can be drawn from iraq is that arab problems need arab solutions; the surge was started when sunni iraqis turned against the brutality of AQ-I.hamas has never been given a chance to govern and fail. and so from the palestinian said,hamas couches this as a literal fight for the survival of the palestinian people. guess which siad the population are going to take?

just some thoughts. carry on........

jeffj,
you ask a good question. i would respond that israel can disincentivise the palestinians to allow rocketing, ie free-flow of goods, trading with palestinians, opening of ports etc. ie by being a 'good occupier'.
israel has'nt done that since it's withdrawal afaik.
i'm not offering a panacea but just a suggestion. perhaps you can provide a link that says israel has done all these things and the rocketing continued unabated.
ran hacohen and jonathan cook provide editorials that say otherwise.

From the Wiki link:

According to The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East, "most of the criticism for [the] failure [of the 2000 Camp David Summit] was leveled at Arafat."[10]

Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% (after many years - see section on territory) of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused.

Posted by kanrei

hence they then sent in Sharon to pray at the western wall with over 1000 riot trained police inciting the current wave of violence by 5% Likud political party?

funi it was reported in Harper mag that a minimum of 310 edits in Wikipedia were traced back to the CIA...

this was the Dec 2007 edition & these particular viable edits were traced during 2004 to 2007

They should use tactical nukes, all the palestinians are the same. they support what the rag heads of hamas are doing so they are all collateral damage

So what. As long as equipment was targted or it was used for illum, too frigging bad.
#1 | Posted by 101Chairborne
I read your post this morning and for the rest of the day I chewed on it.
If I ever meet you in person, I will make your life very miserable. You can take that to the bank.
#169 | Posted by dxlingr

Oh shit 101 another internet tough guy, my guess is he will want to set up a meeting somewhere to kick your ass I just hope you are ready. Judging by his threats he will most likely bring his wife and kids Palestinian men are no big deal, but Palestinian women are a different story that's why they make them wear burkas it is much harder to punch and swing at a man and catch him with that contraption on

Peace be upon you and watch your back...

& don't drink at that applebees again...

They should use tactical nukes, all the palestinians are the same. they support what the rag heads of hamas are doing so they are all collateral damage

#174 | Posted by Badeye

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian!"

I read your post this morning and for the rest of the day I chewed on it.

If I ever meet you in person, I will make your life very miserable. You can take that to the bank.

#169 | Posted by dxlingr at 2009-01-12 09:25 PM | Re

*If you ever met me in person you'd be looking fondly upon the time you chewed on a post, because the rest of your meals would be through a straw.

*How do I not respond to a ridiculous internet tough guy without taunting? I've gotten threatened so many times that laughing at them has grown stale.

ataxpayer still being the pussy huh

israel knows so much that in 60 years it still doesn't have peace.

lets just let them keep doing what they are doing.

their leaders like the never elected olmert knows whats up.

and hamas IS a terrorist organization
and so is the israeli government

#29 | Posted by klifferd

Hey Klifferd I know you will wake up and check this thread first and I did not want to disappoint you so here goes. Today's question is are you still gay and obsessed with my "man parts" ??? As a follow up question will you admit HamAss is supported by the Palestinian people as their elected officials and are willing to die on the roof of some cowardly "fighter" to save his home even if they all die in the process meaning of course both women and children. The final question is judging by the way Palestinian men treat their women are they mostly gay as well.

Peace be upon you regardless of sexual orientation...

and hamas IS a terrorist organization
and so is the israeli government

#29 | Posted by klifferd

so is good ole' USA until 1/20/09 ~ some say...like me:>)

*How do I not respond to a ridiculous internet tough guy without taunting? I've gotten threatened so many times that laughing at them has grown stale.
#178 | Posted by 101Chairborne

That's a good attitude 101 and besides you can always send him a pic of the bottom of your shoe that really pisses them off

Peace be upon you...

The Palistians voted for and support HamAss they are pathetic bastards hiding under the dreses of women and behind their own children they deserve RETURN FIRE...

#166 | Posted by ATaxpayer at 2009-01-12 07:52

damn.....didint know you were such a hardass...good work.....

all they have to do is stop firing the rockets...and then maybe peace will break out.
what has hamas or the palestinians done since israle gave up gaza? lets see...about all I have heard about is the slumming of gaza and the election of hamas to be thier 'mommas'.......and you see where THATA getting them in the peace process.....

do they DESERVE THIS for putting hamas in that position....I dont know but I wonder if the women and men who voted for them and who now have them basically in thier living rooms would vote now.

I am at a school working so one of your links was blocked so I cant comment on them....but if they have been so mistreated by israel then where are the other countries in the region...

how about room in jotdan or how about some of that space in pakistan where binladen is hiding.....

or anywhere in the muslim world for that matter...adn then of course the reason to hate america would have to change....

"If I only had a brain"

damn.....didint know you were such a hardass...good work.....

#182 | Posted by bushlovertwo

Considered a compliment thanks BL2 keep asking them the tough questions you have at least one fan...

FF

***"There were several different types of shells we used. We had projectiles for smoke, illumination, high explosives, daisy cutters (anti-aircraft), willy pete (anti-tank), and flack. They are all situational. just because you used one type of projectile (at the exclusion of others?) in no way negates what I have posted."
#153 | Posted by Prolix247

I know I've been out for a while, but some of the uses you attributed to the ordnance listed have me scratching my head.

A daisy cutter for anti-aircraft? Not unless you're trying to take out the aircraft on the ground.

Willy pete as anti tank? Willy pete has lots of uses, and I may be wrong on this, but I don't ever remember using it as an anti-tank weapon.

"This clip for all people to see the Beauty of the Palestinian People before they were ethnically cleansed and murdered and made into refugees by the State of Israel"

Who the hell assumes that the Palestinian people aren't beautiful & a good people? You put the fact that you can't find the good & bad in everyone onto others. Don't. Most reasonable people can see good & bad & room for improvements on both sides. Further, one could argue that the refugee status was greatly contributed to by supporting those in power who have no other interests than destroying Israel. Maybe the primary goal should be improving the lives of the Palestinians instead of destroying the Jew.

"Who the hell assumes that the Palestinian people aren't beautiful & a good people? You put the fact that you can't find the good & bad in everyone onto others. Don't."

What?

Great song, right?

"Maybe the primary goal should be improving the lives of the Palestinians instead of destroying the Jew."

Nah. They should just continue their perpetual war against an enemy that could wipe them out any time it wants.

Sincerely,

Palestinians' "Supporters"

Great song, aye, Sully?

If they use civilians as shields, the war crime is theirs

#16 | Posted by vernon

I am sure that is a comfort to the dead civilian.

Why do I get the feeling the Israel Gaza war is akin to Our war against the Native Americans. The Israeli Nation got it's start and then they wanted to expand their territory. But because someone has squated upon the land they seek they declare them lessers as did the Europeans did with this Country and labeled them Savages lesser thans themselves so that it will placate to those who support them and their action. Instead of Native AMericans it's Palestinians that are the "Savages" and they need to either assimulate or become dead. Seems to Me what we have here is a thirst to gain land and resourses and this is the way they are doing it. Am I all wet or what??

Larry

The military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israeli Forces bears a direct relation to the control and ownership of strategic offshore gas reserves.

This is a war of conquest. Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas reserves off the Gaza coastline.

British Gas (BG Group) and its partner, the Athens based Consolidated Contractors International Company (CCC) owned by Lebanon's Sabbagh and Koury families, were granted oil and gas exploration rights in a 25 year agreement signed in November 1999 with the Palestinian Authority.

The rights to the offshore gas field are respectively British Gas (60 percent); Consolidated Contractors (CCC) (30 percent); and the Investment Fund of the Palestinian Authority (10 percent). (Haaretz, October 21, 2007).

The PA-BG-CCC agreement includes field development and the construction of a gas pipeline.(Middle East Economic Digest, Jan 5, 2001).

The BG licence covers the entire Gazan offshore marine area, which is contiguous to several Israeli offshore gas facilities. (See Map below). It should be noted that 60 percent of the gas reserves along the Gaza-Israel coastline belong to Palestine.

The BG Group drilled two wells in 2000: Gaza Marine-1 and Gaza Marine-2. Reserves are estimated by British Gas to be of the order of 1.4 trillion cubic feet, valued at approximately 4 billion dollars. These are the figures made public by British Gas. The size of Palestine's gas reserves could be much larger.

(from Australia with no link yet:>)

Caution Bani. RCADE has banned people for spamming threads. Just a FYI

What does that have to do with what I just posted, Larry?

It's posting the same article on more than one thread. I am just trying to keep You from being deep sixed from here Bani. That's all.

Larry

gee, thanks...I think

don't worry Larry, your bible will save me:>)

here's more of the article (no link yet) which is more important than your worries...me thinks anyway

Who Owns the Gas Fields

The issue of sovereignty over Gaza's gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to Palestine.

The death of Yasser Arafat, the election of the Hamas government and the ruin of the Palestinian Authority have enabled Israel to establish de facto control over Gaza's offshore gas reserves.

British Gas (BG Group) has been dealing with the Tel Aviv government. In turn, the Hamas government has been bypassed in regards to exploration and development rights over the gas fields.

The election of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 was a major turning point. Palestine's sovereignty over the offshore gas fields was challenged in the Israeli Supreme Court. Sharon stated unequivocally that "Israel would never buy gas from Palestine" intimating that Gaza's offshore gas reserves belong to Israel.

In 2003, Ariel Sharon, vetoed an initial deal, which would allow British Gas to supply Israel with natural gas from Gaza's offshore wells. (The Independent, August 19, 2003)

The election victory of Hamas in 2006 was conducive to the demise of the Palestinian Authority, which became confined to the West Bank, under the proxy regime of Mahmoud Abbas.

In 2006, British Gas "was close to signing a deal to pump the gas to Egypt." (Times, May, 23, 2007). According to reports, British Prime Minister Tony Blair intervened on behalf of Israel with a view to shunting the agreement with Egypt.

The following year, in May 2007, the Israeli Cabinet approved a proposal by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "to buy gas from the Palestinian Authority." The proposed contract was for $4 billion, with profits of the order of $2 billion of which one billion was to go the Palestinians.

Tel Aviv, however, had no intention on sharing the revenues with Palestine. An Israeli team of negotiators was set up by the Israeli Cabinet to thrash out a deal with the BG Group, bypassing both the Hamas government and the Palestinian Authority:

"Israeli defence authorities want the Palestinians to be paid in goods and services and insist that no money go to the Hamas-controlled Government." (Ibid, emphasis added)

The objective was essentially to nullify the contract signed in 1999 between the BG Group and the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat.

Under the proposed 2007 agreement with BG, Palestinian gas from Gaza's offshore wells was to be channeled by an undersea pipeline to the Israeli seaport of Ashkelon, thereby transferring control over the sale of the natural gas to Israel.

The deal fell through. The negotiations were suspended:

more...

Mossad Chief Meir Dagan opposed the transaction on security grounds, that the proceeds would fund terror". (Member of Knesset Gilad Erdan, Address to the Knesset on "The Intention of Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to Purchase Gas from the Palestinians When Payment Will Serve Hamas," March 1, 2006, quoted in Lt. Gen. (ret.) Moshe Yaalon, Does the Prospective Purchase of British Gas from Gaza's Coastal Waters Threaten Israel's National Security? Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, October 2007)

Israel's intent was to foreclose the possibility that royalties be paid to the Palestinians. In December 2007, The BG Group withdrew from the negotiations with Israel and in January 2008 they closed their office in Israel.(BG website).

Invasion Plan on The Drawing Board

The invasion plan of the Gaza Strip under "Operation Cast Lead" was set in motion in June 2008, according to Israeli military sources:

"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago [June or before June] , even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas."(Barak Ravid, Operation "Cast Lead": Israeli Air Force strike followed months of planning, Haaretz, December 27, 2008)

the rest of it!

That very same month, the Israeli authorities contacted British Gas, with a view to resuming crucial negotiations pertaining to the purchase of Gaza's natural gas:

"Both Ministry of Finance director general Yarom Ariav and Ministry of National Infrastructures director general Hezi Kugler agreed to inform BG of Israel's wish to renew the talks.

The sources added that BG has not yet officially responded to Israel's request, but that company executives would probably come to Israel in a few weeks to hold talks with government officials." (Globes online- Israel's Business Arena, June 23, 2008)

The decision to speed up negotiations with British Gas (BG Group) coincided, chronologically, with the planning of the invasion of Gaza initiated in June. It would appear that Israel was anxious to reach an agreement with the BG Group prior to the invasion, which was already in an advanced planning stage.

Moreover, these negotiations with British Gas were conducted by the Ehud Olmert government with the knowledge that a military invasion was on the drawing board. In all likelihood, a new "post war" political-territorial arrangement for the Gaza strip was also being contemplated by the Israeli government.

In fact, negotiations between British Gas and Israeli officials were ongoing in October 2008, 2-3 months prior to the commencement of the bombings on December 27th.

In November 2008, the Israeli Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of National Infrastructures instructed Israel Electric Corporation (IEC) to enter into negotiations with British Gas, on the purchase of natural gas from the BG's offshore concession in Gaza. (Globes, November 13, 2008)

"Ministry of Finance director general Yarom Ariav and Ministry of National Infrastructures director general Hezi Kugler wrote to IEC CEO Amos Lasker recently, informing him of the government's decision to allow negotiations to go forward, in line with the framework proposal it approved earlier this year.

The IEC board, headed by chairman Moti Friedman, approved the principles of the framework proposal a few weeks ago. The talks with BG Group will begin once the board approves the exemption from a tender." (Globes Nov. 13, 2008)

Gaza and Energy Geopolitics

The military occupation of Gaza is intent upon transferring the sovereignty of the gas fields to Israel in violation of international law.

What can we expect in the wake of the invasion?

What is the intent of Israel with regard to Palestine's Natural Gas reserves?

A new territorial arrangement, with the stationing of Israeli and/or "peacekeeping" troops?

The militarization of the entire Gaza coastline, which is strategic for Israel?

The outright confiscation of Palestinian gas fields and the unilateral declaration of Israeli sovereignty over Gaza's maritime areas?

If this were to occur, the Gaza gas fields would be integrated into Israel's offshore installations, which are contiguous to those of the Gaza Strip. (See Map 1 above).

These various offshore installations are also linked up to Israel's energy transport corridor, extending from the port of Eilat, which is an oil pipeline terminal, on the Red Sea to the seaport - pipeline terminal at Ashkelon, and northwards to Haifa, and eventually linking up through a proposed Israeli-Turkish pipeline with the Turkish port of Ceyhan.

Ceyhan is the terminal of the Baku, Tblisi Ceyhan Trans Caspian pipeline. "What is envisaged is to link the BTC pipeline to the Trans-Israel Eilat-Ashkelon pipeline, also known as Israel's Tipline." (See Michel Chossudovsky, The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil, Global Research, July 23, 2006)