Exerpt from Hamas Charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

........when people question why Hamas keeps firing rockets that cause MORE deaths to their OWN children than to the Israelis............

.......one only has to refer to Hamas' own Charter, which calls for Jihad without end........

.......thats what they want.........

.......thats what they have.........

What a mess.

For everyone.

I just don't understand what the Palestinians and Hamas are hoping to gain from the attacks. They cannot defeat Israel, and therefore they cannot acheive any of their goals. You would think after all these years they would understand that only through diplomacy and peaceful efforts will their lives improve and their future brighten.

Israel now has a nuclear power plant that falls within range of Hamass daily rocket attacks, this coupled with the fact Hamass does not want peace leaves Israel with no choice but to attack the Gaza strip with a vengeance. If the Palestinian people had ANY brains at all they would band together and put a stop to the daily rocket attacks that bring about RETURN fire from Israel. I am so sick of watching the terrorist rocket attacks followed by a retaliation from Israel and then listening to all the Palestinian cry babies complain. Here is a clue for the Palestinian dumb asses with the rockets and mortars DO NOT SHOOT AT THEM AND THEY WILL NOT RETURN FIRE, how hard is that to figure out...

So you just want them to sit there and be robbed, raped and exterminated?
By the terrorist jews and their amerikan christian suppliers?

Death to Isreal.

So you just want Israel to sit there and be bombed day after day after day, raped and exterminated,
By the terrorist Palestinians and their Arab suppliers?

Screw you, Git. Seems I remember that 9/11 did not have any Jewish guys flying planes into buildings.

Death to Palestine.

"Death to Isreal."

#6 | Posted by gitmboy

"amerikan" WTF country are you from you have to be an arabic asshole...

"By the terrorist jews and their amerikan christian suppliers?"

What's the point behind putting a "k" in America? Is that supposed to be an insult? If it is, its not really a good one.

What's the point behind putting a "k" in America? Is that supposed to be an insult? If it is, its not really a good one.

#11 | Posted by GreenDad

I think Gitbaby is just kstupid...

What's the point behind putting a "k" in America

Maybe it's that other country that da bOoB keeps blathering about.

I went to sleep last comforted by the fact that Israel is going to continue to drop bombs on those mutts.
I don't care where exactly they land as long as they kill palestinians and destroy what they consider "property/buildings". Hospitals and mosques preferably.

"So you just want them to sit there and be robbed, raped and exterminated?
By the terrorist jews and their amerikan christian suppliers?

Death to Isreal."

You are are my first officially recognized "dumb ass" of the new year. Congratulations!

How anyone can be upset with Israel for FINALLY striking back at the Hamas-terrorist assholes is beyond me.

It's not good. Look for an escalation to the violence.

"So you just want them to sit there and be robbed, raped and exterminated?"

In the real world, this isn't what was happening in Gaza.

You're a parody of "radical" spouting nonsense.

Do you guys realize that history extend a little farther back than 8 years?

Gitbaby Hamass shoots at Israel every single day begging for a counter strike, further more the cowardly bastards you worship hide behind women and children acting like pussies and causing the deaths of innocent civilians. Why are the HE MEN you worship not on the field of battle instead of hiding under the dresses of women...

Death to Isreal.

#6 | Posted by gitmboy at 2009-01-02 09:52 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Hi Boyd)

Why are the HE MEN you worship not on the field of battle instead of hiding under the dresses of women ???

Gitbaby are you going to answer are just sit there until the birds start landing on your head ???

I think gitboy is just a user name for fun I am sure you have several...

Why does the press never tell how many rockets hamas has fired in the last few years? How bout all the suicide bombers that have wandered into shoping centers and blew themselves up? Tell both sides.

Why does the press never tell how many rockets hamas has fired in the last few years? How bout all the suicide bombers that have wandered into shoping centers and blew themselves up? Tell both sides.
#22 | Posted by Sniper

The key word is press actually reporting a news story accurately would be too much like being a real journalist. Today's journalist always have an angle or an agenda that comes first...

Hospitals and mosques preferably.

#14 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-01-02 10:13 AM |

Spoken like a true pussy. Because everyone knows that just like Iraq, hamas is a threat to us.

Or as I'm sure you call it, the "Homeland".

Hot off the press:

"Army Radio reported that according to Palestinian sources,(the Hamas leader just killed with 2/4 of his wives and several of his children) his family was warned before the attack but did not leave the building."

I mentioned it yesterday that I'd heard this one PBS.

Sniff sniff...Ahhhh, the rancid smell of a GED.

How is my little name changing puppet?

Israel fires missiles into the most densely populated concentration camp in the world and then complains Hamas 'hides behind civilians.'

Sniff sniff...Ahhhh, the rancid smell of a GED.

How is my little name changing puppet?

#26 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-01-02 10:45 AM |

Rattle the cage and look who comes to life.

Who am I this week eisenhower, boyd, cocco, itsy,
sam i am?

Pathetic.

"Why does the press never tell how many rockets hamas has fired in the last few years?"

They do, although they rarely if EVER report how many missiles the Israelis lob into Gaza or how many time Israel has violated the ceasefire.

......Hamas does hide behind civilians.......

....they are hoping for their own children's deaths so that they can make the evening news.......

They do, although they rarely if EVER report how many missiles the Israelis lob into Gaza or how many time Israel has violated the ceasefire.

#30 | Posted by Tom_W at 2009-01-02 10:51 AM |

You Anti Semite.

The "right"

they are hoping for their own children's deaths so that they can make the evening news.......

#31 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-01-02 10:52 AM |

and you know this how?

By the terrorist jews and their amerikan christian suppliers?
Death to Isreal.

#6 | Posted by gitmboy at 2009-01-02 09:52 AM | Reply

Spoken like a true bastard.

If that's really how you feel, this is what the war you want by saying "Death to Israel" really COSTS!

Hope you don't mind if people like skizziks and I hope civilians ARE NOT killed, on either side. (Skizziks and I on the same side...hmmmph)

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Definition of a halfwit: someone who only looks at half the facts.

Harretz:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Definition of a halfwit: someone who only looks at half the facts.

Harretz:

Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders

By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies
Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Hamas

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

although they rarely if EVER report how many missiles the Israelis lob into Gaza or how many time Israel has violated the ceasefire.

#30 | Posted by Tom_W at 2009-01-02 10:51 AM | Reply

If you believe that then you're a big bag of stupid. You can find out exactly how many missiles, tonage of ordinance, and tanks Israel has committed during any given skirmish simply by picking up any main-stream newspaper, watching any news channel, or reading any news related website.

If you believe that then you're a big bag of stupid. You can find out exactly how many missiles, tonage of ordinance, and tanks Israel has committed during any given skirmish simply by picking up any main-stream newspaper, watching any news channel, or reading any news related website.

But apparently this halfwit can't find the link...

" a big bag of stupid ".

No comment necessary.

But apparently this halfwit can't find the link...

#37 | Posted by Tom_W at 2009-01-02 10:58 AM | Reply

Because you're obviously stupid.

GED,
You must have really missed me puppet. You can't help yourself from following my posts around as usual.
How does it feel to have me in your head constantly? It must drive you nuts.

they are hoping for their own children's deaths so that they can make the evening news.......#31 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-01-02 10:52 AM |and you know this how?#33 | Posted by hillbillydeluxe at 2009-01-02 10:54 AM | Reply

PBS just showed the video of a Hamas leader saying that. He said something like "This is jihad. We will fight to the death. Every one of us is prepared to die."

I'd link to it if I could--watch McNeil/Lehrer News Hour.

I don't give Israel a free pass--they SHOULD limit/avoid civilian deaths. I don't hold Israel close to my heart because I'm a Christian--I'll say when they do something right as well as wrong.

The leadership of Hamas has said on several occasions that is is willing to live within '67 borders....but don't expect to hear that from the cheerleading halfwits of Israel. All but Israeli propaganda is invisible to them.

What if we armed the Palestinians in the same way we armed the Israelis? Then maybe we can move toward peace; only then will both side come to the table as equals.

"they are hoping for their own children's deaths so that they can make the evening news...."

More fiction from the Israeli cheerleaders...,

Don't flatter yourself Eisenhower. How much Rcade ass did you have to kiss to get off of your "vacation" a few days early?

May happen anyway. Israeli nukes stations may now be within Hamas' range..

**** and you know this how?

#33 | Posted by hillbillydeluxe ******

......they have the option of stoping the rockets and thereby stopping the retribution.......

......but they don't value the lives of their children more than they value the propaganda gained by rocketing......

......they want dead kids to show on TV.........

......Hamas is getting what it wants......

"PBS just showed the video of a Hamas leader saying that. He said something like "This is jihad. We will fight to the death. Every one of us is prepared to die."

Wow. Just like the Alamo. Who gets to be Davey Crockett?

TOSSER

What a mess.

For everyone.

I like to read your posts at times because you bring a view we often do not get here in the U.S. so....

Put aside for one minute, if you can, the fact that you are Muslim and you'd would favor Gaza in this conflict. Also put aside your sentiments against Israel.

I've now appointed you U.S. Secretary of State.

Give me an entirely impartial and neutral suggestion as to how you would bring peace to that region of the world which would satisfy both Israel and Gaza/Hamas.

If you're going come up with the usual Muslim comments like "push Israel into the sea" then don't bother answering. I want to pick your brain as to how YOU would come up with a peaceful solution that BOTH sides would accept.

Can you do it?

Click your history stalker. You've got the Chairborne Flu in a bad way. Even new handles can't help you.

Tom_W
Gitboy

More than likely just two of many user names for the same stupid bastard. I nominate all your user names for first dumbass of the new year...

they are hoping for their own children's deaths so that they can make the evening news.......

#31 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-01-02 10:52 AM |

and you know this how?

#33 | Posted by hillbillydeluxe

Straping explosives to them and sending them into shoping mals isn't a clue?

WTF is the "Chairborne Flu"?

Because if it's something I've had the day after hot wings and beer, then yes I've had it.

Oh wait! chicken wings! That must be the chairborne part!

Straping explosives to them and sending them into shoping mals isn't a clue?

#52 | Posted by Sniper at 2009-01-02 11:09 AM |

what "mal" would this be?

"Give me an entirely impartial and neutral suggestion as to how you would bring peace to that region of the world which would satisfy both Israel and Gaza/Hamas"

Kick Israel's ass out of the West Bank and Gaza and move in troops to maintain the peace.

Did you ever notice that a 16 year old suicide bomber is a child but a 16 year old shot in the head by the IDF is an adult?

**** Kick Israel's ass out of the West Bank and Gaza and move in troops to maintain the peace.
.....#55 | Posted by Tom_W *****

......there are no Israeli troops in Gaza.......

......whose troops would you move in ??.......

......would maintaining the peace mean forcing Hamas to stop the rocketing ??......

***** Did you ever notice that a 16 year old suicide bomber is a child but a 16 year old shot in the head by the IDF is an adult?
......#56 | Posted by Tom_W ******

......but the 16 year old suicide bomber proves.....

...that Gazans want their own children dead......

"Straping explosives to them and sending them into shoping mals isn't a clue?

#52 | Posted by Sniper at 2009-01-02 11:09 AM "

what "mal" would this be?

#54 | Posted by hillbillydeluxe at 2009-01-02 11:09 AM

Tel Aviv Galleria?

"The leadership of Hamas has said on several occasions that is is willing to live within '67 borders...."

Yes, but this isn't completely acceptable to Israel, so this is where you need to have diplomacy and negotiations. The land as a whole is claimed by two seperate parties, you can't just say, "Give me exactly what I want or its war." There has to be a solution that will be acceptable to both parties, it just takes sitting down and talking to figure out what it is.

Ohhh... he meant a "mall"! Thanks Drama!

**** Kick Israel's ass out of the West Bank and Gaza and move in troops to maintain the peace.
.....#55 | Posted by Tom_W *****

Why not just use the Iranian answer from the religion of Peace and wipe all of Israel off the map. Land for Peace has NEVER WORKED Tom you are an idiot the only thing Palestinians understand is bombs bullets and death. Hamass pays monetary awards to the families of suicide bombers and you would negotiate land for peace what an ass you are...

"Kick Israel's ass out of the West Bank and Gaza and move in troops to maintain the peace."

First off, all Israelis ARE OUT of gaza. Secondly, "peace-keeping" troops would be unable to keep the peace as history has shown.

A better suggestion is to have the "Palestinians" sign a treaty with Israel and HOLD TO IT as Jordan and Egypt have done. You have noticed, haven't you, that Israel returned captured territory under those circumstances? Of course Egypt didn't WANT Gaza back and Jordan didn't WANT the West Bank back either. Can you figure out why?

(Hint...they are occupied by "Palestinians.)

Israel has also indicated it will return the Golan Heights to Syria if they will do as Jordan and Egypt has done.

Realize also that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have said time after time and time after time that they will NEVER recognize Israel. In this present confict, the leaders are saying, ""This is jihad. We will fight to the death. Every one of us is prepared to die."
Over how long a time and HOW MANY times do they have to repeat all that in order for you to come to believe it?

"First off, all Israelis ARE OUT of gaza"

Typical Israel cheerleader. A blockade against Isreal is an act of war, a blockade against the Palestinians isn't even worth considering.

"Realize also that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have said time after time and time after time that they will NEVER recognize Israel."

And they have stated the opposite.

Definition of a halfwit: someone who considers half the facts.

By the way Israel has stated time and time again that it will NEVER give up all the settlements. IT HAS NEVER SAID IT WOULD.

"The leadership of Hamas has said on several occasions that is is willing to live within '67 borders...."

Tom it sounds like your position is Israel should go back to the 1967 borders and that they should also give up all their settlements.

Is there anything the Palestinians should give up? This sounds pretty one sided for the Palestinians... a lot of concession by Israel and none from the other side of the table.

And they have stated the opposite.

#65 | Posted by Tom_W at 2009-01-02 11:33 AM | Reply

Yet, being a halfwit, you only mentioned half of the story. The half where hamas mutts lie about returning to the 67 borders.

The guys kicking ass always cave to the demands of the side taking the beating, right? That makes sense, right?

I don't hold Israel close to my heart because I'm a Christian--

#40 | Posted by kirk at 2009-01-02 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

Onward Christian Soldiers!!!

"Typical Israel cheerleader. A blockade against Isreal is an act of war, a blockade against the Palestinians isn't even worth considering."

Gee, Tom...I don't know how you have missed it, but they HAVE BEEN AT WAR for decades now. Blockades are fair game during wars. They have been used for centuries and have been quite successful over time. I don't know what your problem is other than your side must be losing.

"Is there anything the Palestinians should give up?"

Yep...the battle.

Israels still have bigger dreams however..which is why they they refused to recognize Hamas and put power in the hands of a few Palestinian rejectionists

"Yep...the battle."

So Israel should give up all that land, remove their citizens, and in exchange the Palestinians just stop fighting?

And you think that would be acceptable to the Israelis? What happens when some time after this deal the Palestinians decide they want more land, and just start fighting again? Worked before so it would work again.

That's not diplomatic negotiation, that's simply surrender on the part of the Israelis. The Palestinians have to give up something tangible.

Palestinians are nothing more than targets, just as it should be.

"Gee, Tom...I don't know how you have missed it, but they HAVE BEEN AT WAR for decades now. Blockades are fair game during wars."

Then stop pretending that the Gaza giveback was a magnanimous act sleazebag. It wasn't it was accompanied by an act of war.

"Palestinians are nothing more than targets, just as it should be."

Shine your jackboots lately?

"So Israel should give up all that land, remove their citizens, and in exchange the Palestinians just stop fighting?"

Apparently this imbecile thinks Israel has a right to that land.

Q: What do Sicilian pies, cold beer and dead Palestinians have in common?

A: They all bring a smile to my face.

"Apparently this imbecile thinks Israel has a right to that land.

#77 | Posted by Tom_W "

No need for that Tom, I'm not insulting you, just trying to have a conversation.

We can argue all day about "right to the land," but the fact is that Israel has the land, and you're not going to get them to give it up just by saying, "We'll stop fighting you."

Both of us are probably typing from land "captured" from some other nation at some point in history.

"And you think that would be acceptable to the Israelis?"

I know you like other peoples stuff but its time you learned its not yours and you 'can't have it.,

Tom,
You should consider standing in front of a bulldozer to show your loyalty to the mutts over there. It worked so well for Rachel Corey.

You especially won't get them to give up the land by just saying, "We'll stop fighting you," if the Palestinians are militarily inferior.

Then stop pretending that the Gaza giveback was a magnanimous act sleazebag. It wasn't it was accompanied by an act of war."

If you will recall, the blockade didn't come about until after some cross-border soldier kidnapping, some rocketing and such. You see, when Israel ceded Gaza to the "Palestinians," the "Palestinians" just kept up the same old shit.

You don't know how badly you have hurt me by calling me "sleazebag." Now I feel compelled to repeat to you the immortal words of our distinguished vice president when he said, "Go fuck yourself."

Apparently this imbecile thinks Israel has a right to that land.

#77 | Posted by Tom_W at 2009-01-02 11:54 AM | Reply

How did they get that land, and why?
Once you answer that you'll see they do have every right to that land.

"Both of us are probably typing from land "captured" from some other nation at some point in history.

It's justifed because it happened before? Does that apply to genocide?

You should consider standing in front of a bulldozer to show your loyalty to the mutts over there. It worked so well for Rachel Corey.

Probably a Cat D-9 paid for by Uncle Sam.

"How did they get that land, and why?"

They got it by starting a war.

Any that's irrelevant. The UN Charter, to which Israel is a signatory, forbids the acquistion of land by force REGARDLESS of who started the war. The UN Charter has the status of international law so by refusing to give back the land Israel is a rogue state.

They got it by whooping mutt ass. They aren't going to give it back so the mutts can attack from it again.

The UN is a worthless and toothless organization. Who cares what those limpdicks have to say?
They did a bang up job in Lebanon didn't they?

"It's justifed because it happened before?"

It just seems a little disingenuous. Basically every country in the world today was another country at some point in the past.

Arab countries throughout the Middle East in 1967 wanted war with Israel, Israel soundly defeated them. Just like we're not giving land back to the Cherokee, why should they have to give land back to the Palestinians?

How did they get that land, and why?
#84 | Posted by 101Chairborne

Let me guess....sky fairies?
Because some guy said God told him they could have the land?

That's it isn't it?

Some guy said God said so...end of argument.

Don't believe the guy, just ask him again, he'll swear God said so...he'll even produce a book that says God says so.
It MUST be true!

If you don't believe him you're ALL going to hell!

"Apparently this imbecile thinks Israel has a right to that land."

Methinks that THOU art the imbecile. Up until 1967 the West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. After the war and after Egypt and Jordan signed treaties with Israel, they specifically said they did not WANT the West Bank and Gaza back. The "Palestinians" were a big pain in the ass to THEM too.

Hey Tom, if you wish to go WAY back, here is a great recitation of ancient history by MelanctonSmith.

"There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient
attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world. Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 B.C.E. these first ancient Jews in the Land of Israel [Judea] were overrun and
Israel's First Jewish Temple (on Jerusalem's Old City Temple Mount) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem upon the Temple Mount. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the Arabs is preposterous.
Then in 70 C.E. (nearly 2000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple,
slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population. Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many
respects... yet thousands upon thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuild a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land.
Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews [Jews], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward, neglected territory from the 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own... EXCEPT the Jews.
It must be noted that in 636 C.E., when the Arab marauders came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews, they did not form any Arab nation
there... and certainly not a "Palestinian" nation. They were simply "Arabs" who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called "Palestine." And remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who "usurped" the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636
C.E. who overran and stole it from the Jews.
No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a
sovereign national entity on this land. The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts... all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certain dwarfs any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Jews have.

"The leadership of Hamas has said on several occasions that is is willing to live within '67 borders....but don't expect to hear that from the cheerleading halfwits of Israel. "

They have to live wherever they can.

At no point have they ever said they are willing to coexist peacefully with Israel on a permanent basis.

In trying to pretend otherwise, you are lying.

Screw you, Git. Seems I remember that 9/11 did not have any Jewish guys flying planes into buildings.

Death to Palestine.

#8 | Posted by gotchamedia

Gotcha -

Don't be too sure about that.

"We don't know what happened on 9/11."

Most folks do. Just you...and Buffalo_Bob... don't.

*****"Is there anything the Palestinians should give up?"

Yep...the battle.

.......#72 | Posted by Tom_W *****

......it's interesting you say "the battle" but not the "war"......

......peace does not come at the end of a battle, it comes at the end of a war......

.......you.....and Hamas.....do not want peace.....

"We don't know what happened on 9/11."

Maybe you don't, but I do.

And I seem to remember Palestinians dancing in the streets after it happened.

Despite their attitude towards our tragedies, I don't get off on watching die. I just refuse to make excusing for idiotic, self destructive behavior.

#21 | Posted by ATaxpayer

Since when have the Israeli's joined the battlefield?

They are killing women and children from the air.

They are too scared of a ground battle and the entire world sees it. This will not end well for Israel.

What will happen in the following weeks when the Israeli's hold their elections?

Will they withdraw and claim victory?

Are they still going to be bombing women and children from above? Will their ground troop have engaged which will increase casualties so the politicians will be held accountable?

This will not end well for Israel.

**** They are killing women and children from the air.
.....#98 | Posted by Prolix247 ******

.......and hundreds of Hamas terrorists........

.....lets not forget the bright side of the Israeli bombardment.......

#95 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Most folks prefer to play Xbox while I live in the real world.

If you don't think that 9/11 was an inside job that is fine. Let me ask you a question?

It is now known that the white house started spying on people the day they entered office (before 9/11). Why was this event ignored? Why was Chenney running terrorist training that very day?

They seemed to catch Spitzer with ease when he was going after Wall Street. Why not these lone terrorists taking flight lessons?

"Since when have the Israeli's joined the battlefield?"

Since 1948.

"They are killing women and children from the air."

Along with a lot of Hamas militants and leaders. Seems kinda smart to me to pound the defenses before an invasion, don't ya' think so? It's working pretty well too, according to the media the score is Israel 424-Hamas 4. Maybe Hamas should forfeit the war...no?

"They are too scared of a ground battle and the entire world sees it."

You CAN'T be serious.

#99 | Posted by skizziks

What information do you have access to that let you determine this statement:

".......and hundreds of Hamas terrorists........"

Or are you just replying with what you have been told?
I would hazard a guess that Hamas is spread out and not in any one place where you can claim the kind of combatant to civilian ratio I have seen printed.

If Israel was serious about stopping Hamas they would have entered the open air prison known as Gaza and physically removed Hamas. Nothing else will ever work.

First....I am neutral on the Palestinian/Israeli problem.

Second....in this particular engagement, it is impossible for the neutral observer not to sympathize with Israel, because the Gazans have been rocketing them for so long, that any other country would have simply bombed the shit out of them a long time ago.

Third.....if Hamas had any brains, they would have noticed an ominous sign. All those holding foreign passports were allowed to leave by Israel. ...Any thinking person would know what this means. ..

Fourth....the worldwide opinion is that Hamas is asking for it, and that no amount of dead Palestinians is enough for them to stop killing their own children.

Fifth.....the man calling the shots for Hamas is hiding his ass in Syria, calling for martyrdom to the last drop of Palestinian blood......except his own.

"It is now known that the white house started spying on people the day they entered office (before 9/11). Why was this event ignored?"

Because nobody in the neighborhoods spotted the black helicopters. I bet you never did find the bug planted in your toaster either, did you?

"Why was Chenney running terrorist training that very day?"

It wasn't Cheney, it was Rumsfeld. Cheney was in the Bahamas screwing Condoleeza Rice.

How can you have everything so wrong?

They are too scared of a ground battle and the entire world sees it."

You CAN'T be serious.

#101 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Yes I am.

What do you think Hamas will say if there is even 1 left alive.

Did you forget what happened against Hezbollah? Israel got whipped in a ground war. They did not have the stomach for battle.

Now just what do you think the Arab Nations will think or do to Israel if they lose to Hamas?

Tom after reading through your posts I have come to the conclusion you are the most factually illiterate ass that has ever posted on the DR. The Palestinians love war and mayhem it is as much a part of their culture as refusing to recognize Israel has the right to exist is a part of the hamass charter. Why do you suppose Egypt wants nothing to do with having the Palestinians back. Are you so devoid of any intelligence that you can not see what a pain in the ass the Palestinians are even the Arabs do not want the Gaza strip back if it comes with these war mongers. The bastards you defend attack Israel day after day after day with missiles mortars and suicide bombers, yet do to extremely high levels of stupidity on your part you would have people believe the Palestinians are fun loving people just misunderstood because of several thousand missile attacks suicide bombs and mortars over the years. In addition the cowardly bastards you so vehemently defend hide under the dresses of women and behind innocent children instead of standing on the field of battle, you defend a bunch of pussies and are an ignorant ass as well...

**** If Israel was serious about stopping Hamas they would have entered the open air prison known as Gaza and physically removed Hamas.
#102 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

......please reread # 103........that is the next step....its coming......

**** Third.....if Hamas had any brains, they would have noticed an ominous sign. All those holding foreign passports were allowed to leave by Israel. ...Any thinking person would know what this means. ..
#103 | Posted by skizziks ******

"Did you forget what happened against Hezbollah?"

No...and neither did Israel. They tried to fight a U.S. style "kinder, gentler" war. I think they might have learned about that tactic. Their current bombing campaign indicates that they have.

**** Now just what do you think the Arab Nations will think or do to Israel if they lose to Hamas?
......#105 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

......Israel has over 150 nuclear missles......

....just as Humphrey Bogart slapped Peter Lorre in 'Casablanca' and said "I'll slap you and you'll take it and you'll like it"........

....the Arab Nations will do nothing or get a nuclear bitch slapping.......

......these countries won't even give Palestinians passports....and you really think that they would risk being vaporized for them ??.......

#103 | Posted by skizziks

First....I am neutral on the Palestinian/Israeli problem.

"It seems to me that you are pro-Israel"

Second....in this particular engagement, it is impossible for the neutral observer not to sympathize with Israel, because the Gazans have been rocketing them for so long, that any other country would have simply bombed the shit out of them a long time ago.

"I believe Israel started this last battle when they broke the truce on November 4, 2008 when they first attempted to bomb the resupply tunnels in Gaza. So no, it is not impossible to not support Israel. I think they are wrong in this endeavor and that is why they will lose. Just like US in Iraq."

Third.....if Hamas had any brains, they would have noticed an ominous sign. All those holding foreign passports were allowed to leave by Israel. ...Any thinking person would know what this means. ..

"Why weren't all women and children allowed to leave?"

Fourth....the worldwide opinion is that Hamas is asking for it, and that no amount of dead Palestinians is enough for them to stop killing their own children.

"This is American and Israeli generated propaganda."

Fifth.....the man calling the shots for Hamas is hiding his ass in Syria, calling for martyrdom to the last drop of Palestinian blood......except his own.

"Israel has a way of committing murder against Palestinian Leaders they like to call extrajudicial killing. There are many leaders in exile from many countries to only point out the Palestinians is wrong."

#21 | Posted by ATaxpayer
Since when have the Israeli's joined the battlefield?

#98 | Posted by Prolix247

That would be the 67 six day war where Israel was attacked in an unprovoked manor and decimated their enemies. Are you related to Tom it sounds like you are both cut from the same intellectual cloth I bet your mom and dad were brother and sister...

#109 | Posted by skizziks
......Israel has over 150 nuclear missles......

Okay, let's say they use one in Gaza, what do you think the fallout would be?

I think the ring of destruction will reach Israel itself not to mention the poisoned soils, oceans, rivers and air.

Not a good option for israel and people in that region know this.

#108 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Can you name one war that was only fought by air alone?

No you can't.

So unless the Israeli's engage on the ground which I do not think they will do this close to an election. This will not end well for the Israelis'

#111 | Posted by ATaxpayer

You know, the first to make a personal remark has lost the argument.

So now that I have proven you a simple man I will ignore you...

From 1991 until his death Palestinians put their faith in Yasser Arafat, what did that get them?
"Israeli and American intelligence officials say Suha Arafat's Paris hotel bill would be little more than chump change for the glitzy heiress, whose late husband might just have been the most flagrant embezzler of public funds since Louis XVI. During Arafat's rule, the United States, World Bank, European Union, and Arab governments poured $7 billion into the Palestinian Authority to try and help forge a viable Arab-Israeli peace. As much as half that sum is reported to have gone AWOL, with only a small fraction recovered to date. And Suha has proved to be only one of several big-time beneficiaries."

Yeah, how can it end well for Israel, they're only killing 450 palestinian mutts for every Israeli lost. I could see where that type of casualty infliction won't bode well for the jews...

I like to read your posts at times because you bring a view we often do not get here in the U.S. so....

Put aside for one minute, if you can, the fact that you are Muslim and you'd would favor Gaza in this conflict. Also put aside your sentiments against Israel.

I've now appointed you U.S. Secretary of State.

Give me an entirely impartial and neutral suggestion as to how you would bring peace to that region of the world which would satisfy both Israel and Gaza/Hamas.

If you're going come up with the usual Muslim comments like "push Israel into the sea" then don't bother answering. I want to pick your brain as to how YOU would come up with a peaceful solution that BOTH sides would accept.

Can you do it?

CalifChris:

First of all, I would keep my distance.

Anyone who tries to meddle in this.. even with the best of intentions... will get their fingers burnt.

Are you aware that 90% of the ammo Israelis use, is made in USA?

I would cut off their bullets. Let them make their own planes and weapons and ammo... and let the Palestinians make their little rockets.

I would also lean on the rest of the world.. Iran specially... to not supply arms to the Palestinians.

If the whole world lets them fight it out, without arming one side against the other... I am pretty sure we will have a deserving winner in 10, 20 years.

So unless the Israeli's engage on the ground which I do not think they will do this close to an election. This will not end well for the Israelis'
#113 | Posted by Prolix247

It will be before January 20th Israel now has a Nuclear Power plant in range of hamass rockets supplied by your Peace loving wipe Israel off the map buddies in Iran. Why do you think the people with passports were allowed to leave a ground war is immanent...

So now that I have proven you a simple man I will ignore you...
#114 | Posted by Prolix247

Your level of ignorance begs for a personal remark and you can also bury your head in the sand I will still critique your ignorance at will stupid ass...

"It seems to me that you are pro-Israel"

......if you had read more of my posts, you would know that is not the case, but you obviously have taken a side in this debate, and are either incapable or unwilling to see issues from the other side......this is your prerogative...but it is self-limiting......

"I believe Israel started this last battle"

.......that's not really correct since Hamas was rocketing even before the truce ended, and it was not a re-supply tunnel,those go into Egypt, the tunnel in question was towards the Israeli side, to commit mischief against the Israeli soldiers stationed there........

" I think they are wrong in this endeavor and that is why they will lose."

.......you have the right to your prognostication...no matter how unlikely........

"Just like US in Iraq."

......if you have read my posts, I always thought that the Iraq invasion was wrong, and a war crime, I have long called for war crimes charges against Bush and his gang for this crime, the Iraqis were NOT ROCKETING THE U.S......

"Why weren't all women and children allowed to leave?"

......someone will be needed to bury the men........

"This is American and Israeli generated propaganda."

......I don't think so, there is no Arab country willing to even grant passports to the Palestinians, no one is coming to their help. Iran just sends them money so they can die as surrogates for Iran. But the Iranians are chicken-shits, they will only fight to the last drop of Palestinian blood, and not one drop beyond........

"Israel has a way of committing murder against Palestinian Leaders they like to call extrajudicial killing."

.....but this one is calling for suicide attacks...why does he not lead by example ??.at least have the guts to pick up a gun....

"There are many leaders in exile from many countries to only point out the Palestinians is wrong."

......but this one is calling for Palestinians to fight to the death......every one's death but his own....he is a coward......

****......Israel has over 150 nuclear missles......

Okay, let's say they use one in Gaza, what do you think the fallout would be?
.......112 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

.......the nukes will not be used in Gaza........

....this remark was in response to your post stating "What do think the Arab Nations would do to Israel"......

.....the response is, the Arab Nations will do nothing, for all the noise they make, they really do not seem to give a shit about the Palestinians....and certainly they would not entertain being vaporized so that the Gazans can keep playing rocketeer.......

Latest news from CNN

Israel is to launch a ground war into Gaza tonight -- most likely to be in the part of Gaza where the rockets have been launched. Israeli aircraft will first clear out the area in preparation for their ground troops to enter.

CalifChris... read my post above.

Also read this by Robert Fisk.

Skizz,

I really am not anti-Israel at all. I have traveled there in the past and think the people in general are generous and good. What I critique are the tactics used to acquire the end game Israel is seeking.

Same as for the Palestinians - I have been to the outskirts of the West Bank (back in 89') and visited East Jerusalem and saw then what it was like. Their leaders have not been pragmatic at all.

But with that said, if Israel does not go all out and be really ready to shed some blood this will not end well for Israel.

A defeat for Israel could lead to a divided Israeli which will only leave it weakened.

The real question will be, "Is Israel ready for their own Viet Nam?"

TOSSER

Just now saw your #123 (and Fisk's article) in answer to my question to you earlier today about how you would handle this situation if you were looking at it from a "neutral" standpoint.

I have to get going on some things now but do promise to come back on here later this afternoon and read all you have written and your link to Fisk, okay? Thanks for getting back to me. I'll be back later.

**** What I critique are the tactics used to acquire the end game Israel is seeking.
.....#124 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

......Israeli / Palestinian relationships are a quagmire......

......but in this particular situation, vis-a-vis the Gaza rocketeers....Israel has been forced to take military action, how intense & effective it is, will remain to be seen, but I think that the Gazans have over-played their hand........

**** Their(Palestinian) leaders have not been pragmatic at all. *****

.......worse than that, their actions have been counter-productive....I have always maintained that if the Palestinians used Ghandi-esque techniques of pacifist civil disobedience, combined with legal action in the Israeli and world courts, the Palestinians could gain most of what they want without sacrificing generations to death, misery, and under-education........

......but......the Hamas leadership has been bought and paid-for by people who do not care about the Palestinian people themselves........

See post 117.

Skizz...
"I don't think so, there is no Arab country willing to even grant passports to the Palestinians, no one is coming to their help."

This is the biggest straw man propaganda tool Israel has.

What nation can absorb 1.5 million people and remain viable?

and

Why should the Arab Nations absorb the humanitarian cost of the Palestinians when the UN has stated it is the Israeli's responsibility? Will Israel reimburse the Arab Nations?

Remember the Motto of Massad "Through deception War."

Yeah, how can it end well for Israel, they're only killing 450 palestinian mutts for every Israeli lost. I could see where that type of casualty infliction won't bode well for the jews...

~Airhead

That type of disproportionate response will not bode well for Israel. It only increases the hate and determination of the radicals. Radicalises wot's left of the moderates. Increases the global sympathy fer Hamas including money, support and more weaponry.

Unless they wipe out all the Palestinians they are just perpetuating a no-win situation and making things worse.

America's one sided support for Israel is one of the major reasons 9/11 happened, btw.

Was that an acceptable consequence fer you?

Be Well.

What I critique are the tactics used to acquire the end game Israel is seeking.

Prolix

Both sides tactics suck ass.

Palestinians: We will refuse to recognise yer right to exist and will shoot bottle rockets into the land you stole from us and kill yer citizens with suicide bombers until you give us autonomy.

Israel: We are gonna keep on killing you disproportionately, imprisoning you, torturing you, starving yer population, stealing yer land and humiliating you daily by treating you as subhuman beast much like the nazis treated us until the day that you stop hating us.

Kinda redefines "No WIN situation".

See also: "Vicious Cycle"

EPIC FAIL of biblical proportions.

Real Cecil B. DeMille stuff.

Be Well.

What nation can absorb 1.5 million people and remain viable?

Pakistan absorbed 3-5 million Afghans (they never went back).

Look at the deep doodoo we are in now. LOL

***** This is the biggest straw man propaganda tool Israel has.

What nation can absorb 1.5 million people and remain viable?

Why should the Arab Nations absorb the humanitarian cost of the Palestinians when the UN has stated it is the Israeli's responsibility? Will Israel reimburse the Arab Nations?

#128 | Posted by Prolix247 *****

........I have met too many Palestinians to agree with that.......

......Palestinians who came overseas because they were treated like dogs by their Arab "brothers".....

......there is no excuse for how badly the Palestinians are treated by the Arab states.......

Despite the looming onslaught, more Hamas rockets which have so far killed four Israelis were fired into southern Israel today.
The Islamist group vowed that its attacks, which have lasted for years and which finally provoked the massive Israeli campaign, would not stop.

Yea don't stop piss em off real good before the land war begins, the word Palestinian must be synonymous with dumb asses. When the land invasion begins they can all be on TV and piss and moan like little cry babies because Israel FINALLY got sick and tired of them and their bullshit. Unfortunately women and children will pay the price for Hamass in collateral damage as the hamass "FIGHTERS" hide under the dresses of their women and behind their own children, what cowardly pussies...

"Pakistan absorbed 3-5 million Afghans (they never went back)."

That's just putting the same Islamic swine into a different pigpen.

again...please watch for report on mosque bombed and muslims in the streets...........even though the place was filled with rockets and munitions and surronded by women and children by the COWARDS OF HAMAS.................

and I read a column from two people from houston who just got back from sderat.......one day recently there were 80 rockets fired into that one town and not at military targets either

one hit the home of itzik moreno and his house was leveled and all of his belongings on the street when the two men and Itzik had to run for the 2nd time to a bomb shelter has hamas rockets came flying through again.............

and NOT ONE FILM CREW FROM NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL MEDIA WAS SEEN THe entire time these two houstonians were there.
I guess they were all too busy filmig the COWARDS in gaza

That's just putting the same Islamic swine into a different pigpen.

Well, these same Islamic swine are killing off your Christian swine in Afghanistan.

If they had stayed in their own pigpen, you would have had them under control, nein?

"If Israel was serious about stopping Hamas they would have entered the open air prison known as Gaza and physically removed Hamas. Nothing else will ever work."

Hamas hides behind women and children. There is no reason to believe that Hamas would stop hiding behind innocents if ground troops were present. They would still be hiding in buildings behind kids, the only difference would be that tank shells instaed of bombs would be destroying those buildings.

And the notion that Israel is afraid to 'fight fair' in a ground battle is assinine. Israelis have whipped the shit out of their enemies every single time they have had the opportunity to fight a conventional battle. Do some homework before you spew this nonsense.

To pretend that Hamas fights like a regular army isn't honest. And to pretend that you can fight the likes of Hamas using conventional tactics isn't honest. And if you can't make your point without being dishonest, that is a good sign that you're wrong.

again...please watch for report on mosque bombed and muslims in the streets...........even though the place was filled with rockets and munitions and surronded by women and children by the COWARDS OF HAMAS.................

#135 | Posted by bushlovertwo

BL2 aktually the correct speLlling is with two S es as IN "HAM ASS" !??..

"Well, these same Islamic swine are killing off your Christian swine in Afghanistan."

If it were just about killing, we'd be way ahead even in Afghanistan. How many Afghanis/foreign fighters die for every American killed? Has to be at least 50. Our problem in Afghanistan has to do with the way the mission has been perverted into this fake "Democracy" fiasco. It has little to do with the fighting abilities of jihadists.

Muslims are so bad at fighting and have such low self esteem that they actually think one of us is worth like 30 or 40 of them. They called the "Black Hawk Down" incident this great victory because they killed something like 17 Americans. Meanwhile, at least 500 of them were slaughtered in that battle.

Muslims are so bad at fighting and have such low self esteem that they actually think one of us is worth like 30 or 40 of them.

Vietnamese were so bad at fighting and had such low self esteem that they actually thought one American dead was worth 30 or 40 of them.

And yet America still left Vietnam with it's tail between it's legs. LOL

See... Arabs and Israelis are both lousy fighters. (see Robert Fisk article I posted above)

But Afghans.... they have nothing to fight with... yet they have ended up in control of 75% of Afghanistan. Now where was the great American fighting machine when THAT was happening? LOL. Standing around with it's thumb up it's ass...

And the Afghanis did it without too many getting killed... ordinary women and kids are always bombed by the Americans to get their 'body count'... the real taliban are not bombed all that much.

It isn't quite about body count as it is about area denial.

Muslims are so bad at fighting and have such low self esteem that they actually think one of us is worth like 30 or 40 of them.

Come to think of it they used the same Mr. Manly tactics as the HAMASS COWARDS utilizing little children to carry suicide bombs, another group of pussies hiding behind women and children...

They called the "Black Hawk Down" incident this great victory because they killed something like 17 Americans. Meanwhile, at least 500 of them were slaughtered in that battle.

The guy who is most resilient, wins.

They took 500 casualties, they won.

America took 17 dead... they ran away from Somalia, never to return.

Not even to defeat the pirates. LOL

Come to think of it they used the same Mr. Manly tactics as the HAMASS COWARDS utilizing little children to carry suicide bombs, another group of pussies hiding behind women and children...

Seems to have worked for them, whatever they did. The US had to leave without having achieved whatever objective they came to achieve.

GOOOOO PIRATES I like them they are funny as hell winning Naval battles on the high seas with ladders and AK-47's...

#144 | Posted by Tosser

Yes it did work...

Which is why they refused to recognize hamas- Tom W

In case you didn't notice, none of the free world recognized them. Sort of shoots a hole in your theory I think.

#137 | Posted by Sully

See Tosser #123.

And here is a question. If ground troops do not remove Hamas, how are they going to be remove?

Can you name one war that was won by air? No you can't. Prolix

Bosnia. In case you are as rusty with American history as you are that of the ME, America bombed them into submission from the air and never set one soldiers foot on the ground.

Bosnia. In case you are as rusty with American history as you are that of the ME, America bombed them into submission from the air and never set one soldiers foot on the ground.

#149 | Posted by everlong

From 1991 to 1995 the United States had been reluctant to act in Bosnia. But after Srebrenica, President Bill Clinton knew that although the American people would not like it, the United States could no longer avoid involvement there. Thus began the diplomatic and military policy that led to the Dayton accords, to peace in Bosnia and, four years later, to the liberation of the Albanian people in Kosovo from Slobodan Milosevic's oppression.

Sending 20,000 American troops to Bosnia as part of a NATO-led peacekeeping contingent to enforce Dayton took real political courage. There were widespread predictions that it would fail, and there was opposition from most of Congress and the foreign policy elite. In a poll at the time, Clinton's decision was supported by only 36 percent of the American public, who expected heavy U.S. casualties. As it turned out, that expectation was misplaced; in the 10 years since Dayton, no -- repeat, no -- American or NATO military personnel have been killed by hostile action in Bosnia. It is a mark of the respect in which NATO -- that is, the United States -- is held.

If ground troops do not remove Hamas, how are they going to be remove?

When you can't tell the difference between Hamas worker and ordinary Gazan... when you can't tell the difference between Taliban and Afghan... etc... it means the ordinary folk are out to get you.

There are websites out there where even 12 year olds can learn how to make bombs and rockets. It is THAT damn easy.

Hamas will never stop making rockets because they can't be stopped.

The ONLY thing that has any hope of working in such situations is to make your own anti-Hamas. Like the British neutralized the IRA with the Loyalists.

On the other hand... Do you know Hamas was once the anti-PLO?

Yep... that's right. Israel created Hamas... and then lost control of it. LOL

You mean American soldiers.

Bosnia was (arguably) a civil war among several different actors, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro with a NATO presence. This was primarily a ground war with American air support.

How was this only an air war again?

"They took 500 casualties, they won.

America took 17 dead... they ran away from Somalia, never to return. "

We were in the country on a humanitarian mission, not a military one. The military objective of that particular incident was successful. The warlord in question was neutralized. But we abandoned the humanitarian mission because it wasn't worth it.

We don't fail at military objectives very often. It is when politicians try to use our army for political objectives that we get into trouble - Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.

We beat ourselves because our leaders are too fucking stupid to understand what armies are for. But our military actually kicks major ass when its allowed to do its real job.

"If ground troops do not remove Hamas, how are they going to be remove?"

I didn't say ground troops can't remove Hamas. I said it wouldn't save civilian casualties to the extent that it would be worth the extra risk to Israeli troops.

Ground troops would have to remove Hamas the same way the bombs do it: By killing them and their human shields.

Makes zero sense to send in the ground troops when their basic mission would be to turn buildings into rubble. That is a bomb's job.

We don't fail at military objectives very often. It is when politicians try to use our army for political objectives that we get into trouble - Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.

We beat ourselves because our leaders are too fucking stupid to understand what armies are for. But our military actually kicks major ass when its allowed to do its real job.

#153 | Posted by sully

Sully I agree with you 100% here.

#154 | Posted by Sully

Sully, have you been in the military? Ground troops aren't there to blow up buildings. They are there to clear buildings and round up the bad guys or kill them. The difference between ground and air war is simple.

Either you have skin in the games and play for keeps or you try to sterilize your aggression by staying away and claiming victory from afar.

Did you notice how Patraeus fought in Iraq, Clear and Hold, city by city, block by block. Not Bomb and Run.

The military objective of that particular incident was successful. The warlord in question was neutralized.

The warlord in question threw you out of the country, my dear fellow.

From wiki:
General Aidid was one of the main targets of Operation Restore Hope, the United Nations and United States military operation that came to the country to provide humanitarian aid and to break the military siege. He became General of Somalia for a short period after forcing UN forces to abandon the country in 1995 .

You lost and ran away. The warlord chased you off.

But our military actually kicks major ass when its allowed to do its real job.

Your military has been free to it's job in Afghanistan.

Yet, it lost 58% of the country to the Taliban in 2007, and 75% in 2008.

Now the taliban are all around Kabul.

Sorry, but your assertion doesn't stand up.

Tosser,
Even though some would say we did not go far enough Gulf 1 was a tremendous success.

We beat ourselves because our leaders are too fucking stupid to understand what armies are for. But our military actually kicks major ass when its allowed to do its real job.

#153 | Posted by sully
..
Well said the military is for when politicians fail to do their jobs.

"the military is for when politicians fail to do their jobs."

A bit too simplistic, I think. Sometimes the military is employed as tool in the arsenal of even the most astute political figures.

"Your military has been free to it's job in Afghanistan."

Bullshit!

There's too much concern about civilian casualties when the combatants are indistinguishable from the civilians.

If i was a military commander allowed free reign, I'd MOAB the hell out of suspected Taliban/Al Queda locations.

Just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you smash the enemy.

It's WAR and you should play to win.

I have a feeling, with the Israelis now lined up to go into Gaza, this is going to be a nasty bloodbath.

There are almost 2 million people packed into the small Gaza Strip but only 40,000 of them are members of Hamas. Is it worth the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Gaza -- many of them children and babies -- to flush out the 40,000? Is there no other way to handle this besides what's about to take place now?

Iran, Russia?

The entire population of Palestine, and an increasingly radicalized Muslim world?

Condi Rice stays in Washington.

"It's just as easy for her to keep on working the phones from here in Washington rather than being in the region right now," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.

Really? Then why did she bother traipsing around the world at our extravagant expense for the last several years, and achieving absolutely zero results?

Whatever happened to proportionality? It is harder and harder for a supporter of Israel such as myself to support this type of overkill.

We don't fail at military objectives very often. It is when politicians try to use our army for political objectives that we get into trouble - Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. - Prolix247

Could a person simply ask where and why a military force would be used for some objective other than political?

Moder8 - There should be more supporters of the Israelis' right to exist in peace who can see that their military practises make peace less and less likely, and as long as the US blindly supports them and arms them, nothing will get better.

I wonder what ramifications lie ahead for Israel if Israel really crushes its foe. Iran, Russia?

#162 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-01-02 08:05 PM

Iran has been the real target all along. You know that as well as I do.

Bombing Gaza into oblivion will incite the Arab world but the nuking of Iran has been the real prize being sought all along. The Neocons have made no secret that nuking Iran has been their ultimate goal.

I like the Israeli people and don't blame Israel for wanting to protect their land and population from rockets being fired from Gaza. But I have resented those in the Israeli government who keep pushing to nuke Iran and want the U.S. to do it for them. It's always our boys in the U.S. military who end up shedding their blood on the sands of the Middle East and I'm sick of it.

As for other countries reaction to Israel nuking Iran, well Russia has many natural gas and oil contracts with Iran and so does Communist China. Those countries will not be very pleased to see the Neocons (in both the Israeli and U.S governments) nuke Iran and I don't know what the retaliation might be.

I never felt that Iran would ever attack Israel because Iran knows if they did, they would be turned into a parking lot by the Israeli and U.S. military so why would they? Iran is making billions selling their oil and natural gas to other countries and Iran enjoys the $$$$ coming their way and aren't about to give it up by initiating an attack on Israel.

Think about it. It makes absolutely no sense for Iran to want to attack Israel and have Iran lose their oil contracts not to mention having a million of their own citizens killed. That's why I don't believe the Neocons' hype -- and the war drums have been non-stop with the Neocons in the Bush Administration -- continually claiming Iran plans to attack Israel. John Bolton (another Neocon) was on CNN just the other night saying we need to nuke Iran and take out its nuclear facilities.

How come Iran -- who signed on to the anti-nuclear proliferation treaty -- while India and Pakistan did not but it's okay for them to have nukes and not Iran?

I don't side with one or the other because I believe all those people in the Middle East almost "like" war and fighting. But if Iran is nuked, the radiation fallout carried by the winds have already been estimated to kill over one million people with a good number of them in India.

Israel is not doing this now without an okay from Bush and we all know it. And the U.S. will be blamed for it right along with Israel. Can't we even start the first week of 2009 in peace?

I'm sick of all of them.

#167 | Posted by sitdown
Are you posting this to Sully?

Anyway the War on Drugs. I would categorize this not as political but as extortion to ensure our cut.

And yes the military is used. When I was in the Navy we patrolled South Florida, Key West, parts of the Caribbean all the time looking for drug runners.

The only ones we found were the Coast Guard.

Prolix you agreed with Sully 100% so I am posting it to you.

If Israel moves into Gaza from the north and Hamas runs, Egypt can mow them down.

FWThom-
Why would Egypt do that?

If Israel moves into Gaza from the north and Hamas runs, Egypt can mow them down.

#172 | Posted by fwthom at 2009-01-02 08:56 PM

The news tonight announced exactly that -- Israel would attack Gaza from the north. BUT the report then said Hamas would leave the northern area and blend in with the almost 2 million civilians in the crowded city areas so they would be impossible to find.

Hamas doesn't travel like a uniformed army, you know. Hamas is not going to march in military formation towards Egypt! Hamas dresses like the rest of the Gaza population, they bomb and then run and blend in with everyone else in the cities. That's what makes it very hard for the Israeli military to single them out.

Now the Arabs and Palestians (are they the same? I always get them all confused) have brought their fighting crap here to Los Angeles tonight. They're all lined up and yelling in protest about Israel in front of the Federal Buidling here in Los Angeles and have managed to shut down Wilshire Boulevard. If they want to do this crap, let them go back to the Middle East and protest.

Screw this kumbaya crap.
If they can't leave their war at home then don't come here to the U.S.

re: If they can't leave their war at home then don't come here to the U.S.

As the largest single contributor to the Israeli military, the US is not a disinterested third party.

Tosser,
Even though some would say we did not go far enough Gulf 1 was a tremendous success.

Yes, that is true.

And so was the first three weeks of the current invasion of Iraq.

As long as it is US military vs other military, all is good. But when it comes to US military vs irregular forces... kaput.

How come Iran -- who signed on to the anti-nuclear proliferation treaty -- while India and Pakistan did not but it's okay for them to have nukes and not Iran?

It makes it legal for Pakistan to have nukes and missiles and it is legal and proper for Pakistan give nuke tech to anyone we like.

No laws are broken since none have been signed.

It is illegal for Iran to do any kind of nuke shit because they signed the NPT. Iran would be breaking all kinds of laws.

I believe all those people in the Middle East almost "like" war and fighting.

They don't like fighting... it is just that they are so bad at it, they can't finish the job and have to go back again and again.

Now the Arabs and Palestians (are they the same? I always get them all confused)

They are the same.

They're all lined up and yelling in protest about Israel in front of the Federal Buidling here in Los Angeles and have managed to shut down Wilshire Boulevard.

Peaceful protest is a democratic right.

its all just pigs wrestling in the mud.

pigs, mud

believe it

Simply put - If the Hamas gave a damn about Palestinians, all they would have to do is stop rocketing and mortaring Israel. Of course they do not care and will continue instigating the ongoing violence.

Simply put - If the Hamas gave a damn about Palestinians, all they would have to do is stop rocketing and mortaring Israel.

There is also the fact that if Israel never cut off their food, water, supplies, etc, they wouldn't have been pissed enough to fire their homemade rockets into Isreal.

Let's face it... where you have Isreal, you got a problem.

Having said that, however, it is also true that Hamas has been amazingly stupid.

BEFORE you start something, you had better make sure that when the shit hits the fan, you can give as good as you get.

Just firing rockets... knowing full well that you will only get the snot kicked out of you, isn't very smart at all.

TOSSER

I think we're going to see a whole new ballgame diplomatically ... with America becoming more of a 'fair player' in that particular struggle.

Hillary Clinton has the respect of Arab leaders as well as Israelis. Obama is no warmonger. I think his familiarity with Islam from his childhood days will, hopefully, at least make people in the Arab world go, "he may not BE one of us, but he understands us better than any American President yet".

I pray for peace in the world every day.

Here's to 2009 maybe being a turning point in a lot of ways.

Cheers.

I think his familiarity with Islam from his childhood days

I think you should get rid of the idea that somehow "Islam runs things" in the Middle East.

No, not really.

Familiarity with Islam will get you nowhere.

Familiarity with Arab culture, however, will get you places. And Obama is not familiar with Arab culture.

Hillary Clinton has the respect of Arab leaders

But the Arab leaders don't have the respect of their people. LOL

It comes to nothing.

with America becoming more of a 'fair player' in that particular struggle.

Will America stop supplying Isreal with ammo?

Nope.

Will America let Palestinians and other Arab citizens have dual-nationalities like Isreali citizens can be both Isreali and American?

Nope.

Fair player, my ass.

As for your faith in Obama....

I do believe he is not an evil man (not like War-Chimp).

But he is too.. much too... accommodating. Perhaps it is because of his academic nature.

He has been neutralized before he even starts and he isn't going to be making big waves.

I'll mark that down as your prediction ....

BTW Obama was out there talking against the Iraq War while he was running for Senate, and at a time when that wasn't the expedient thing to do - in fact, it was an unpopular stance for a politician to take at the time. Highly.

He's got big balls, but doesn't swagger like the Chimp.

"Walk softly and carry a big stick"

And he was right in 2002. Things turned out exactly as he said they would.

"BEFORE you start something, you had better make sure that when the shit hits the fan, you can give as good as you get."

They probably will. The Israelis ain't sitting on their butts rearranging the rubble at an incredible cost per diem for no reason.

"BEFORE you start something, you had better make sure that when the shit hits the fan, you can give as good as you get."

This is a land war. By merely surviving as they have already done a few dozen times, the Palestinians win.

This is a land war. By merely surviving as they have already done a few dozen times, the Palestinians win.

Yes, true. As I said before, the most resilient, win.

However, I would have liked it if they had something better up their sleeves than home-made rockets... give Isreal a real bloody nose.

They will get there eventually, I hope.

"Simply put - If the Hamas gave a damn about Palestinians, all they would have to do is stop rocketing and mortaring Israel."

Wrong. The Israelis continue to blockade Gaza, an act of according to the Israeli apologist explanation of the 67 war. So according to Israeli apololgists, Hamas has a duty to fight.

Sorry should be

"an act of WAR according to the Israeli apologist explanation of the 67 war."

".......one only has to refer to Hamas' own Charter, which calls for Jihad without end........"

Amazing how halfwits* continue to quote a 20+ year old charter and ignore more recent statements by the Hamas leadership

Last update - 07:59 09/11/2008
Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders
By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies
Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Hamas

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

The Hamas leader spoke at a meeting with 11 European parliamentarians who sailed from Cyprus to the Gaza Strip to protest Israel's naval blockade of the territory. Haniyeh told his guests Israel rejected his initiative.

Clare Short, who served in the cabinet of former British prime minister Tony Blair, asked Haniyeh to repeat his offer. He said the Hamas government had agreed to accept a Palestinian state that followed the 1967 borders and to offer Israel a long-term hudna, or truce, if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights.
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In response to a question about the international community's impression that there are two Palestinian states, Haniyeh said: "We don't have a state, neither in Gaza nor in the West Bank. Gaza is under siege and the West Bank is occupied. What we have in the Gaza Strip is not a state, but rather a regime of an elected government. A Palestinian state will not be created at this time except in the territories of 1967."

*Definition of a halfwit:anybody who ignores half the facts.

"What should Israel do regarding such weapons caches?"

Apparently this halfwit* doesn't think Hamas has a right to defend itself.

*A halfwit is anybody who ignores half the facts.

Does Hamas bear any responsibility for civilians in the facility or for other cases where they've attempted to hide themselves or their weapons among civilians?

Some but given that Gaza has one of the highest population densities in the world this is difficult. Besides hiding amongst the population is a tool of the guerilla fighter. They did it in Algeria and Vietnam and the French and the Americans were justly criticised for being indiscriminate. Why should Israel be any different?

"What should Israel do with that situation? Ignore it? Bomb it? What would you do if you were Israel and engaged in this battle? Would you abstain from firing because it might mean a civilian would die?"

You probably shouldn't pose such a question to Tom. You see, his staunch hatred of anything Israeli and the severe ass-kicking his little friends are experiencing have caused him to develop optiorectumitis. That means his optic nerves have become entangled with his sphincter and now he doesn't know whether to shit or go blind. He is reduced to sitting at his keyboard with his asshole biting the seat cushion every time he blinks. Asking the questions you are asking only exacerbates the problem and causes wear and tear on his shorts. He is totally incapable of providing any logical answers.

"Would you abstain from firing because it might mean a civilian would die?"

First of all these are merely claims made by the IDF which they inevitably make regardless of whether there are weapons there or not. Your eagerness to assume the IDF is always credible merely reflects your bias.

In any case the process should proceed as follows

i) people involved should be warned well in advance

ii) the probability that civilians will be killed should be assessed.

iii) A strike should be allowed when the probability is low.

iv) All of this should be monitored by international observers.

One could argue that Hamas should be required to do the same but that would disarm them completely which is unacceptable if you agree they have a right to defend themsleves.

"You probably shouldn't pose such a question to Tom. You see, his staunch hatred of anything Israeli and the severe ass-kicking his little friends are experiencing have caused him to develop optiorectumitis. "

Apparently constructing an argument is beyond this bimbo...

"In any case the process should proceed as follows

i) people involved should be warned well in advance

ii) the probability that civilians will be killed should be assessed.

iii) A strike should be allowed when the probability is low.

iv) All of this should be monitored by international observers."

Are you fuckin' serious?...LOL
Sounds like the ground rules for the super bowl or something. Have you figured out how to compute the scores yet? LOL

If "stupid" was a snowflake, you'd be a walking blizzard.

Hey, Tom, lemme help you out a little. When it becomes necessary to engage an enemy in warfare the object is to WIN. You see, fuck bein' "fair." You want to destroy, ravage, and completely defeat a foe as rapidly as possible with as few casualties to your own side as possible. Your formulae, posted above, is a formula for defeat as proven in many recent conflicts, Lebanon being one. Here's what you say followed by the formula for victory:

"i) people involved should be warned well in advance"

Bullshit...the objective is to hit high value targets, whatever and wherever they may be when the enemy least expects it. SURPRISE is a most desired and most successful tactic.

"ii) the probability that civilians will be killed should be assessed."

Bullshit...success will be determined by how much of the enemy's ability to continue to wage war will be affected, not by the number of civilian deaths.

"iii) A strike should be allowed when the probability is low."

What in hell are you talking about? Strike being allowed...allowed by whom. In fact, a strike should take place when the enemy is most vulnerable and when our own forces are likely to suffer the least casualties.

"iv) All of this should be monitored by international observers."

LOL...as long as they monitor from afar because we aren't going to worry about them if they are amongst the enemy during any attacks. I don't suppose the enemy is going to worry about them much either...do you think they will? Go back to '83 when your little friends actually ATTACKED the peace-keeping forces in Lebanon...LOL.

Are you really this naive...or foolish...or stupid...or just all the above?

"When it becomes necessary to engage an enemy in warfare the object is to WIN. "

You want to behave like a Nazi, that's your business. Just don't whine when you are labelled as such and tried and executed.

"You want to behave like a Nazi, that's your business."

Really....and if your objective in warfare is not to win, what would it be? To lose???

"Just don't whine when you are labelled as such and tried and executed."

That doesn't happen to the winners, only the losers. Check with Tojo, Jodl.....and Saddam on that one.

"In any case the process should proceed as follows
i) people involved should be warned well in advance
ii) the probability that civilians will be killed should be assessed.
iii) A strike should be allowed when the probability is low.
iv) All of this should be monitored by international observers." - TomW

All of the above is happening today, look up operation "Knock on roof"....

So you just want them to sit there and be robbed, raped and exterminated?
By the terrorist jews and their American christian suppliers?

Death to Isreal.

#6 | Posted by gitmboy

Posts like the one above or it diametrically opposed twin seem to be the main ways of seeing this conflict. There is a lot of truth to be found on both sides. Israel does treat Arabs or Muslims as second class citizens. But the resident Palestinians also seem to act like that. They were dealt with on a day by day basis from long before the current conflict as undesirables and many of them earned it.

But the ridiculous claims of those like gitmboy are stupid beyond belief. Remove head from ass and reassess. Please!

All of the above is happening today

I'm so glad they have adopted the PC Rules of War.

Are they fighting an Army? A uniformed militia? Nope.

Hamas has never risen much above a street gang that's politically savvy. They really can't win a war so they engage in the equivalent of explosive graffiti.

No one can change their minds so killing them is the only option.

Get with it.

No one can change their minds so killing them is the only option.

Get with it.

#212 | Posted by OzarkAggie at 2009-01-03 12:59 PM

Hey! Maybe we should adapt the mentality for the street gangs here!

"Go back to '83 when your little friends actually ATTACKED the peace-keeping forces in Lebanon...LOL."

One can always rely on Israeli cheerleaders for dishonest drivel.

Number of UN personnel killed by Israel - at least 6.

Number killed by Hamas : 0

"Really....and if your objective in warfare is not to win, what would it be? To lose???"

Apparently this bozo is okay with Nazi tactics.

"Tossing out the term "Nazi" or others like "Hitler" or "racist" are highly inflammatory. Since you chose to use the Nazi term, I'm curious as to what brought you to that view."

I would have thought it was obvious. Anyone who claims anything goes is CLEARLY okay with Nazi tactics.

Inflammatory? It was they who implied they were okay with Nazi tactics. Not me.

"Tossing out the term "Nazi" or others like "Hitler" or "racist" are highly inflammatory. Since you chose to use the Nazi term, I'm curious as to what brought you to that view."

I would have thought it was obvious. Anyone who claims anything goes is CLEARLY okay with Nazi tactics.

Uh this argument about killing and winning goes both ways. Right? I just wanted to make that clear.

Israel has been at this for over 60 years with no end in sight. Those easy victories like the Six Day War are over. I think they are slipping while their enemies are gaining strength.

Without israel, the world would be a safer place.

Israel's slow theft of Palestine is illegal under international law but protected by US "diplomacy."

The Palestinians are no more of a threat to Israel than Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were a threat to the Nazi state. Yet, everywhere in America--Congress, the executive branch, the print and TV media, the universities, evangelical Christian institutions--there is the belief that Israel is on the verge of annihilation by Palestinian terrorists. This ignorance, so carefully cultivated by the Israel Lobby, turns genocidal aggression into self-defense.

It fools Americans, but it doesn't fool Israelis. The Israelis have always known that "self-defense" is a cloak for a Zionist policy of territorial expansion. The policy is controversial within Israel. Many Israelis object, just as many Americans object to President Bush's illegal wars and violations of US civil liberties. Many Israelis give voice to their moral conscience, but they are overwhelmed by vested interests.

Karl Marx declared morality to be merely a mask for vested interests. The writings of Marx and Engels are scornful of good will and moral ideals as effective forces in history. The Israeli state epitomizes Marx's doctrine that power alone is the effective force.

Many American conservatives share the Israeli state's belief in the efficacy of power. Conservatives who turned against Bush's wars did so because the US was not brutal enough. They turned away from Bush's long inconclusive wars in the way that fans desert a losing team.

excerpted from Paul Craig Roberts
Reagan's Genius Economist

Hey! Maybe we should adapt the mentality for the street gangs here!

#213 | Posted by hillbillydeluxe

Given time and the economic conditions you may see that. As I see it, the gangs will get bigger and stronger and the way to stop them will be the strongest action by the people in the area's afflicted. Shoot first and the hell with questions. This will have the same affect as it did in the vigilantly days in the west. It worked very well then and can, if absolutely needed today. Sad yes but you have to stop this crap some time and it is plain that the police aren't able to. The fable from the old dime novels of a town being "treed" or taken over by a small gang is baloney. These men had fought in the Civil War or against the Indians. They were not afraid to use guns or from shooting from behind cover at an unaware enemy. This may one day be the fate of gangs. When people have had enough they will together take the necessary actions. That is part of what built this country and may just have to be again.

"Without israel, the world would be a safer place."

Without Islam, the majority of violence on this planet would cease.

Israel is only a danger to the shithook sheikdoms and Islamic idiocracies that threaten to wipe them out.

Leave Israel alone and you would likely only know about them by their export products. They are not imperialistic, they just want to live in peace. A thing that in the history of the Hebrews is scarce.

Leave Israel alone and you would likely only know about them by their export products.

Hey look dear! There is that made-in-Isreal toaster you always wanted! Now we can go and look for that made-in-Isreal DVD player!

Oh sorry... it was just a dream. LOL

Isreal is using Nazi tactics with regards to the ghetto-ization of the Palestinians and cutting off their food, water, etc.

They have been doing this for a long time. Hamas firing rockets into Isreal was a reaction to this treatment.

Tosser is anti-semite for saying the obvious then?

Well, Tosser is anti-semite anyway...that's a given...

They are not imperialistic, they just want to live in peace. A thing that in the history of the Hebrews is scarce.

#225 | Posted by keith20

Didn't seem that way after Sharon's little visit to the Western Wall in 2000.

Israel was in relative peace before that sacred prayer of his...

Tosser is not anti-semite because Tosser was a Semite 800 years ago. LOL

After coming to the Indo-Pak Subcontinent and staying here for 800 years, we mixed with Chinese/Mongol horse thieves and became Asian.

And that is the story of Tosser.

TOSSER is full of crap. Now that is something understandable.

****** America took 17 dead... they ran away from Somalia, never to return.
.......#143 | Posted by Tosser *****

......yes indeed......

.....and just look at the Paradise on earth that the Somalis and their Muslim brothers have built in Somalia since then........

.......if the place gets any shittier, it will turn into another Pakistan.......

**** Isreal is using Nazi tactics with regards to the ghetto-ization of the Palestinians and cutting off their food, water, etc. ****

.......they are doing on one side, what their Muslim brothers the Egyptians are doing on the other side ........

****** They have been doing this for a long time. Hamas firing rockets into Isreal was a reaction to this treatment.
.........#227 | Posted by Tosser ******

.......and so why are the rockets not being launched into Egypt as well ???..... because their brother Muslims would not be half as nice to them as their Jewish cousins........