I am confused. I watched the local news coverage of the "attacking" Palestinians and they were shown throwing rocks and using old time rock slings. Then the "defending" Israeli's were shown with tanks and automatic weapons.

Even Steven Spielberg showed the true boarder in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Israel! Get out of Palestine!

What is it going to take to make the world see that HAMAS is the fly inthe ointment here? They are totally ignoring the UN, the EU, Egypt, the U.S., and even their own people in Fatah who are urging an end to the rocket attacks.

"That question grew urgent in the days before Dec. 19, when the tenuous cease-fire between Israel and Hamas expired. Nearly 300 missiles landed in Israel, paralyzing much of the southern part of the country. Yet Israeli leaders held their fire."

"Israelis across the political spectrum agreed that the state had the right, indeed the duty, to protect its people. But one question remained: Would the international community consent?

That question grew urgent in the days before Dec. 19, when the tenuous cease-fire between Israel and Hamas expired. Nearly 300 missiles landed in Israel, paralyzing much of the southern part of the country. Yet Israeli leaders held their fire.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni flew to Cairo to implore Egyptian leaders to urge restraint on Hamas, and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told viewers of Al-Arabiyah Television that Israel had no interest in a military confrontation. If Israel was guilty of acting disproportionately, it was in its willingness to seek any means, even at the risk of its citizens' lives, to resolve the crisis diplomatically.

Yet the U.N. Security Council abstained from condemning Hamas and convened only after Israel resolved to act. The U.N.'s hypocrisy, together with growing media criticism of Israel, is reinforcing Israeli concerns that territorial concessions, whether unilateral or negotiated, will only compromise the country's security and curtail its ability to respond to attack."

"The Damascus office of Hamas, which operates under the aegis of the regime of Bashar al Assad, vetoed the efforts of Hamas leaders in Gaza to extend the cease-fire and insisted on escalating rocket attacks."

"In the coming days, the Gaza conflict is likely to intensify with a possible incursion of Israeli ground forces. Israel must be allowed to conclude this operation with a decisive victory over Hamas; the untenable situation of intermittent rocket fire and widespread arms smuggling must not be allowed to resume."

I hope this truly is an all out war. That is the best chance for a lasting peace. My only other wish is that Kofi Anan and Jimmy Carter would go to Gaza to negotiate a settlement and that they would get caught in a crossfire.

The rockets were fired as Israel let some 100 trucks carrying humanitarian supplies from Jordan, Turkey and international aid groups into the Gaza Strip via the Kerem Shalom border crossing.

In addition, five new ambulances donated by Turkey were allowed into the Strip.

Egypt will not fully open its crossing into the Gaza Strip unless Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian Authority is in control of the border post, said Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said Tuesday, resisting demands Egypt do so amid Israel's operation against Hamas.

Egypt has come under heavy criticism in the Arab world over its refusal over the past year to open the Rafah crossing, which has helped complete an Israeli blockade of the territory. Since Israel's offensive in Gaza began Saturday, Egypt has allowed some wounded to cross from Gaza for treatment and some humanitarian supplies to enter the territory.

Mubarak said in a televised speech Tuesday that Israel must "stop the aggression" against Gaza and accept an unconditional cease-fire.

"I am confused."

Obviously.

"I watched the local news coverage of the "attacking" Palestinians and they were shown throwing rocks and using old time rock slings. Then the "defending" Israeli's were shown with tanks and automatic weapons."

Old file footage. Think about it. There are NO ISRAELIS in Gaza. Hamas has been attacking Israel for weeks with rockets, not rocks. ("That question grew urgent in the days before Dec. 19, when the tenuous cease-fire between Israel and Hamas expired. Nearly 300 missiles landed in Israel, paralyzing much of the southern part of the country. Yet Israeli leaders held their fire.")

The old footage you saw had the Israelis responding to the rocks with tear gas...remember. You should be more skeptical of media reports that involve Israel/Palestinians. They threw in the tanks just for effect. Those were probably tanks operating in Lebanon a couple of years ago. It worked though...you fell for it.

Where is Obama on this issue, why is it taking him days to make a statement? Is it because he stated while in Israel that if rockets were fired at his children, he would do whatever it takes to defend them? Got to watch those campaign speeches.

if you put 1.5 million in a prison with no aid, food and water

and ALL you get is a few hobbie rockets with m80's attached you are lucky

israel fights and its called defending their country.

but when the prison country/city of gaza is defending their right to basic necessities

its called terrorism

double standard

the conservative elements of israel have been creating a situation and making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

they are just as much against peace as hamas
and are just as much terrorists.

get rid of conservatives.

It isn't Obama's place to make a statement. That's Bush's job. He's still President. We have one President at a time. Mixed messages wouldn't serve anyone well.

" if rockets were fired at his children'

if missles were fired at your children
what would you do?

oh yea, palestinians don't have the right to defend.

funny i'll state it again

the only people defending mass killing are conservatives.

Likud
Republicans
Hamas
Hezbolla
Iran's Hard line Clerics
Taliban

get rid of conservatives

"get rid of conservatives"

Could we be fortunate enough to get rid of kliffart? Let's take up a collection for a vest and plane ticket for him.

This is not the USA's fight, and if it were not for religion and oil, we would not be there at all.

KILFFORD

The U.S. is the only country that can get a final peace effort going. Bush has ignored the Israel-Palestinian peace process his entire time in office. When the U.S. can be seen as an honest broker and get the region to the table something can be accomplished.

You're right, conservatives like war. Rabin was assassinated because he wanted to negotiate something once and for all. Sadat was assassinated because he did. The radical conservatives within the U.S. marched us into a war that further diminished our credibility as peace brokers in the region.

"Could we be fortunate enough to get rid of kliffart?"

have fun trying

i'm american born and raised
and not a hatefull conservative bone in my body

but i'll take the money.

lord knows conservatives had made the bill paying a lil more difficult with their hateful wars and such.

au:

notice that all the parties who are pushing or defending war are conservative groups.

on all sides.

progressives like rabin and sadat are just in the way of the conservative goals of division, greed and power

You're right, conservatives like war. Rabin was assassinated because he wanted to negotiate something once and for all. Sadat was assassinated because he did. The radical conservatives within the U.S. marched us into a war that further diminished our credibility as peace brokers in the region.

Once again AU blames Bush for the trouble in the Middle East. As though there was ever a problem until Jan. 2000. You better find another form of therapy come Feb. 2009. The Bush prescription will be off the market.

This is not the USA's fight, and if it were not for religion and oil, we would not be there at all.

#13 | Posted by Sluggo

Tell that to AIPAC.

Where is Obama on this issue, why is it taking him days to make a statement? Is it because he stated while in Israel that if rockets were fired at his children, he would do whatever it takes to defend them? Got to watch those campaign speeches.
#7 | Posted by scooter28054 at 2008-12-30 10:04 AM | Reply |

Obama is not the Pres of the US yet. 1/20/2009, in case you didn't know--I hear the inauguration will be televised.

While there are some valid Palestinian claims for sure, the problem is that firing rockets into neighboring towns leaves the Israeli gov't with no option but to stamp that out - its the primary element of a citizen-state contract, defense. So rockets hijack the process and back them into a corner.

To suggest that if Israel handed over the border controls of Gaza to Hamas that all would be fine, is a joke. It is just one thing that Hamas is fighting for, and if it were the only thing, I would support them, and frankly, it would have been resolved by now. They want to control their borders so they can being in more weapons to fight. Remember these are the same guys who blew up discos with the goal of disrupting the peace process. Not many options here....

CRISPEE

Spell out why you love Bush.

And, are you somehow, unbelieveably, going to propose that Bush has in any way helped ME peace?

I'm looking for a reason to spit up my coffee all over my monitor this morning.

prompting Shrub to go on another holiday vacation.

Arabs are fair game. Jews are free to kill at will, like the US they only act in self defense against sticks and stones.

Hell, for that matter, so are poor Americans and anyone unlucky enough to have joined the Reserves or Guard, thinking it was a good part-time job.

Shrub simply does not give a shit.

jimmig

this isn't the same hamas of 10 years ago

hamas like hezbolla is made up of more then just a military wing.

they are made up social and legistlative wings now branching out into all aspects of palestinian life.

and with more sieges, they will get more ingrained
and you might have to call hamas the local political party one day.

the ragtag hamas militant forces if trained into a legitate army with rank and file and an agenda to defend gaza instead of fight israel would be the best course of action. Use a David Patreous method to winning this war.

this along side making sure that the other wings become more democratic and legitimate is the only way out of this grave situation.

this is a serious undertaking...

sorta like how occupying force usa is doing in iraq... taking a hostile enemy and turning them into useful members of society and even friends.

israel has historically refused to take that kind of geneva convention responsibility in palestine... and let the militant ideals fester.

this is israels fault and repeated mistake.

if israel is the big boy on the playground then he can either be a bully like he has been or be a mentor and do the right thing.

of course hamas is at fault
but hamas isn't the receiver of 10 Billion in aide

hamas isn't a legitmate government with a legitamate army and real weapons... not inaccurate hobby rockets with m80's attached to them.

israel can bring peace but my challenge is to the conservative element in israel?

do they not want peace as much as the extremist hamas element.

CRISPEE

Spell out why you love Bush.

And, are you somehow, unbelieveably, going to propose that Bush has in any way helped ME peace?

Funny I don't remember praising or criticizing Bush for anything regarding the ME. I simply pointed out your typical post blaming Bush as though it was his fault for the decades old conflict. As though it was all paradise before Jan. 2000.

Klifferd cannot keep his opinions straight...even two minutes apart.

"this isn't the same hamas of 10 years ago

hamas like hezbolla is made up of more then just a military wing.

they are made up social and legistlative wings now branching out into all aspects of palestinian life."

10:42

"hamas isn't a legitmate government with a legitamate army and real weapons"

10:44

"this is israels fault and repeated mistake."

10:42

"of course hamas is at fault"

10:44

Here is a serious question to all those who insist Israel give land back to Palestine: do you support returning Texas to Mexico? We bought California and Arizona, but we stole Texas from the Mexican and today are building a wall to keep them out. Is there consistancy to your point of view? If you are intellectually honest, you will either say Gaza is part of Israel or that Texas must be returned to Mexico.

Klifferd, why doesn't Hamas acknowledge Israel's right to exist? Pretty simple thing if they were truly serious about 'branching out into all aspects of palestinian life'.

Let me get this straight....

Hamas attacks Israel, but isn't very good at it. Israel says not to or else. Hamas attacks Israel again, but still isn't very good at it. Israel takes the land used to attack them. Hamas attacks Israel again, still not good at it, and Israel, fed up, attacks Hamas, yet Israel is to blame because Hamas keeps doing something they are not good at?

I blamed Bush for further inflaming tension in the ME - which our own intelligence services have concluded has resulted in more terrorists willing to die trying to kill us. Further, he hasn't taken a step until early this year - not one - in America's trying to further peace among Palestinians and Israelis, a problem that's been at the root of a lot of animosity and violence aimed at the U.S. for our one sided approach.

Sending Condi ("We'll never talk to Syria") Rice to Syria earlier this year accomplished nothing. The Bush Administration has no credibility in the ME - and largely because of invading Iraq. We've also destabilized the region further by making Iran suddenly a player we have to contend with when they weren't before we took out Saddam.

I just want to hear why you love Bush. You've always jumped to his defense. I didn't have a beef with him until he invaded Iraq and messed up in so many ways besides that. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before that. So, don't assume I bash him because of politics. It's because of the long list of undeniable and tragic failures that have left us weaker as a nation.

(Last post in response to

#26 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2008-12-30 10:47 AM)

I just want to hear why you love Bush. You've always jumped to his defense.

Please point out where I defended Bush? As usual you base your question on the fact I don't blame Bush for every ill like you. Is it really that hard to undertand AU?

Reiterating the rationale that Israel's bombing of Gaza was an act of retaliation and not of aggression, Axelrod, on behalf of the Obama administration, continued to spread the same misinformation as President Bush: that Hamas was the first to break the ceasefire agreement, which ended over a week ago, and Israel was simply responding judiciously.

Aside from the fact that Israel's response was anything but judicious, the idea that it was Hamas who broke the six-month truce is a complete fabrication.

On the night of the U.S. election, Israel fired missiles on Gaza that were aimed at closing down a tunnel operation they believed Hamas was building in order to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The carnage left in the wake of Israel's bombing of Gaza over the past six weeks has killed dozens of Palestinians.

"The escalation towards war could, and should, have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid ... two months ago," the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom wrote in a press release. "Since then, the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased."

Over the last seven years only 17 Israeli citizens have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire, which makes it extremely difficult for Israeli politicians, which are in the midst of an election, to argue that their response has been proportionate or defensible in any way.

they are made up social and legistlative wings now branching out into all aspects of palestinian life."

10:42

"hamas isn't a legitmate government with a legitamate army and real weapons"

10:44

these two aren't at war
hamas IS in all palestinian life
but it is not a legitmate government
who's the leader? who's the second in command in case leader dies.

where are the generals
hamas is ragtag trying to be legitamate

and the rest

hamas is as fault
but israel is still to blame because they are the occupying force and ultimately responsiblity to help the civilian population rests on the occupiers

hamas is as fault
but israel is still to blame because they are the occupying force and ultimately responsiblity to help the civilian population rests on the occupiers

Posted by klifferd at 2008-12-30 11:41 AM

That does clear some of it up. As far as Hamas not being a real governmnet, that is not true. Hamas is a political party with elected officals and is the government of Palestine.

i could give a shit about the hamas militant extreme wing

but woman and children are dying and israel

and by doing so
for every 1 militant killed
2 or more new militants are made.

"Hamas is a political party with elected officals and is the government of Palestine."

what is the constitution of Palestine

who makes up the judicial branch

are their judges

is there a penal system?
where are the prisons?

its not really a legit government

they dont' have the means to be a real govt.

sure they are a political party running for office in a government that really doesn't exist.

That does clear some of it up. As far as Hamas not being a real governmnet, that is not true. Hamas is a political party with elected officals and is the government of Palestine.

Much to the dismay of the FATAH Party. In some ways they are hoping for the fall of HAMAS as well.

Klifferd,
It is the Hamas Militant Extreme wing that is causing the problems. If someone pulls a gun on my family, I am not going to wait until they shoot, I am going to defend myself and, if that gun ends up not being loaded, then that person is an idiot for pulling an empty gun. By the same token, Hamas launches missiles into Israel. Just because they have bad aim and rarely kill anyone does not negate the fact that Israel cannot allow missiles to be launched into their country. Hamas does these things knowning Israel's reaction and, more importantly, the international communities already anti-Israel attitude, and they use it.

It is like when my little sister would punch me over and over again. I would let it go once, twice, but I would hit her back and she would go screaming to our mom and I would get in trouble. THat his Hamas' plan.

CRISPEE

HAMAS is NOT the elected government of Palestine.

Abbas's party won the election. HAMAS refuses to acknowledge that. Been in all the papers for a long time.

Kliffy
I think you are saying that Hamas has to be cajolled into being more moderate and then allowed and even supported to become a real, effective government. You seem to ascribe characteristics to Hamas that they don't ascribe to themselves (i.e. up for any compromise)
ultimately all that is needed is this:
1 - Hamas to recognize right of israel to exist (even with disputed borders, i mean the fundamental right in any shape)
2 - stop firing rockets
then the pressure will seriously be on Israel to open borders, create economic partnerships, negotiate final peace, etc..

but without #1 and #2 - there's no practical sense in making any concessions. I don't presume to say Israelis are angels in this situation, but when faced with outright rejectionism across the board, it almost doesn't matter anymore.

"In January 2006, Hamas won a dramatic victory in Palestinian elections and became the dominant political power in Palestine.

Since that election, Israel and many Western powers have struggled with how best to interact with a group that is at once labeled terrorist and, at the same time, is the legitimately elected leadership of the Palestinian National Authority."

struggled?????????

they're just trying to kill them all off.

Israel is a threat to every Palestinian life. Israel faces retribution from many Palestinians from time to time, but the scale of risk is 1/100th of what the Palestinians have endured for 60 years.

Israel is the first occupier and aggressor, always has been. They moved into another's territory and began pushing further and further, taking everyone's water in the process.

Only the American media portrays Israel's behavior as self defense. The rest of the world sees it for what it is, illegal aggression, even most Israelis understand this. Everyone except Neocons.

The attack on Gaza is not a military strategy as much as it is simple retribution.

There is no reason to maintain air attacks in residential areas except to instill fear and death (terrorism). I know some of you will say Hamas is in residential neighborhoods and it is their fault. I say you are wrong

Air strikes are used to take out the eyes and ears of the enemy leaving them disorganized. Ground troops are used to root out enemy positions and destroy them.

It is obvious that the IDF is still shaken from their loss to Hezbollah and are scared of attacking Hamas on the ground so they have chosen to accept killing children and collective punishment.

Cowards one and all...

Here is a serious question to all those who insist Israel give land back to Palestine: do you support returning Texas to Mexico? We bought California and Arizona, but we stole Texas from the Mexican and today are building a wall to keep them out. Is there consistancy to your point of view? If you are intellectually honest, you will either say Gaza is part of Israel or that Texas must be returned to Mexico.

That is a great idea. Hell, using that logic the US gets to keep Mexico, Cuba, Japan, Germany, Italy, Austria since we beat them all in war too. Now, who will send us billions of dollars in aid to help us kick the italians out of italy? I think we can round them up in a refugee pen somewhere - maybe penned into the mountain pass by Austria so we can insure no medicine or food gets to them.

hamas always bring out the rock throwers for western news consumption,poor hamas rocks vs.tanks how unfair.

CRISPEE

HAMAS is NOT the elected government of Palestine.

Abbas's party won the election. HAMAS refuses to acknowledge that. Been in all the papers for a long time.

Thanks for taking the time to write this fact. Of course I never said they were the elected Government. I said another Party was hoping for their fall as well.

"inaccurate hobby rockets with m80's attached to them..."

Ok, genius why don't you go and stand in the path of one of those "hobby rockets" then and let us know how harmless they are. Tell you what, you don't even have to do that... Just stay in a building that is struck by one. Of course then there are the mortar rounds... What are those? Water balloons?

Hamas is a political party with elected officals and is the government of Palestine.

#38 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2008-12-30 11:49 AM

You probably made an innocent error. But, you're right, a lot of people are hoping HAMAS falls. They've refused to submit to the elected FATAH party of Abbas. It's troubling the number of bystanders who have nothing to do with HAMAS that have been killed and wounded.

does the hamas charter still call for the total destruction of israel?

You probably made an innocent error

Or you missed the post written by Kanrei at 11:44. Of course it is my fault because I expanded on the post instead of directly arguing with the said poster.

#49 | Posted by moomanfl

You know Hamas cannot aim there rockets right? They truly are bottle rockets.

"You know Hamas cannot aim there rockets right? They truly are bottle rockets."

Really you think so? You think they don't aim at Sderot? You don't think they know what time the kids are in school?

There are plenty of military targest within range of Gaza, yet they dont seem to be being hit, are you claiming thats just "luck"? That these "bottle rockets" as you claim, just randomly, like the flow a of creek end up in civilian areas?

If you were a civilian would you rather have an enemy that can aim? Or one that cannot?

Tell you what Prolix... why don't you play "William Tell" with my neighbor. She has a bad case of lazy eye. I will loan her my 9mm. You can just stand there with the apple on your head. Don't worry though, she can't aim for shit so if you happen to get hit, the 9mm slug is magically transformed into a BB instead.

You are a fucking moron.

Since when does the ability to aim make a damn bit of difference to the explosive power if you get hit? What are the chances of someone getting hit if you fire into a crowded room, even if you can't aim worth a damn?

Hint:

bottle rocket = bang
hobby rocket with m80 attached = Bang!
Qassam rocket = KABOOM!!!!!!

Is that dumbed down enough for you or do you need me to draw a few pictures for you too?

they don't have a legit claim to Gaza anyway ... give Hamas 1/2 of Somalia & tell 'em it's their REAL homeland -
folks whose military is mostly stones & bottle rockets shouldn't be too hard to convince

this conflict is too much like the NBA - - the journalism & outcome is pretty predictable...
I'll tune in again at the end of the 4th quarter

#55 | Posted by moomanfl

Only if you let me take a shot at you with my laser guided .45.

I will let her go first.

Here is another one... If I walk up to Jet Li and slap him, he might just turn the other cheek. If I keep doing it he might respond in kind. Eventually if I keep it up his response is going to get more and more aggressive. Eventually I am going to be nothing but a puddle of goo on the bottom on his shoe. The fact that I can't even come close to his fighting prowess doesn't make his reaction unwarranted considering my tenacity and refusal to accept any lesser action on his part as a sign to stop.

Only if you let me take a shot at you with my laser guided .45.

I will let her go first.

Gee, I guess your faith in the bottle-rocket-because-they-
can't-aim theory isn't one you have much faith in. Seems you just had your head up your ass after all. Duly noted.

I don't know why those who want war just up and go to some deserted land in Africa divide an area into two equal parts and send out a signal flare initiating the fight. The last ones standing wins. Oh and no help from anyone be it the United States or anyone else.

Larry

Try this one;
Jet Li comes to your house kicks you out of it but lets you live in a tent in the back yard.(how nice of him) Now he only lets in just enough supplies to your tent to keep you alive and if you try and leave the tent he kicks you in the balls until you cough up blood. Now what do you do?

#61 Slaryman,

That is not even close to the situation and you know it. There was a plan for two homelands in the area and the Arabs never accepted it. The day the plan was supposed to go into effect, with Jerusalem under international UN control, the Arab states attacked Israel and the plan never went into effect. Had the Arabs not attacked then they would have the two equal lands with neither group in control of Jerusalem.

Jet Li did not come into my house, Jet Li was told to go there by the world and then, in your analogy, I attacked Jet Li before he even unpacked and was shocked at how angry he was.

Try this one;
Jet Li comes to your house kicks you out of it but lets you live in a tent in the back yard.(how nice of him) Now he only lets in just enough supplies to your tent to keep you alive and if you try and leave the tent he kicks you in the balls until you cough up blood. Now what do you do?

Try this one, Jet Li and I are housemates, and the house is divided up. Jet Li lets me have free access to his side of the house, except that I keep coming over and punching him and breaking his stuff...

Of course, Jet Li to Israel anaolgy is funny enough to begin with because, if Israel really were Jet Li, the fight would be over by now.

Given that Hamas's stated purpose for being is the destruction of Israel, war between Israel and Hamas seems unavoidable.

Let Israel crush them once and for all and maybe the Palestinians can finally ditch their idiotic pipe dreams of "driving them into the sea" and move on in a realistic fashion.

If the Palestinians insist on being crushed, crushing them quickly is more human than slowly crushing them over the course of decades anyway.

Today is a historic moment on the Drudge Retort because I believe this is the very first time Moomanfl and I have ever been on the same side of a fight. 2009 will indeed be a weird year.

if Israel really were Jet Li, the fight would be over by now.

Not really. Israel has shown restraint. Maybe not enough to suit you... but restraint none the less.

slaryman

No one is making anyone live in a tent. Your analogy is flawed. Palestinians have a home---they are living in it. They have a country---they are living in it. They lost a war--they have to deal with it. The American Indians lost a war---that's how things work. The British lost a war--that's how things work out---you lose a war, you lose land. TFB--quit whining.

Moomanfl,
Israel has shown tons of restraint. My point, and joke, was that if Israel were Jet Li and I were Palestine, the fight would be over long ago. Israel is not the Jet Li of the Middle East, more like the James Bond: they don't have the best skill so much as the best toys and are usually on the right side of a fight.

Sorry Kanrei, leaped before I looked on that last response, at least as far as the "not enough to suit you part" goes. Should have been "not enough to suit Prolix and Klifferd".

And yes, it will be a strange year for sure, but face it... we were bound to have SOME sort of common ground.

Sorry Kanrei, leaped before I looked on that last response

No problem, been guilty of it myself more than I care to admit. It is standard operating procedure around here.

Oh God.... a strange year indeed. Now I am agreeing with Kanrei AND Buffalo_Bob....

/me looks around for Rod Serling.

I am confused. I watched the local news coverage of the "attacking" Palestinians and they were shown throwing rocks and using old time rock slings. Then the "defending" Israeli's were shown with tanks and automatic weapons

~Yougothurt

It's like David versus Goliath part II

Only Israel is playing the role of Goliath this time out.

And they've taken David's sling away and starved him fer months before starting the fight.

Israel are acting like Nazis here.

The irony, the irony.

Be Well.

#59 | Posted by moomanfl

I stated I would let the little girl you so proudly would allow to fight your battle go first.

Then I would use my laser guided .45 in retaliation against you stating it was the intention of your actions through the little girl.

Now I know they don't teach sex ed in Florida but do they teach reading?

And really, a little girl with a gun? That is the best you can come up with?

#60 | Posted by LarryMohr

Larry for once I agree with you.

Oh God.... a strange year indeed. Now I am agreeing with Kanrei AND Buffalo_Bob....

/me looks around for Rod Serling.

#72 | Posted by moomanfl at 2008-12-30 01:22 PM

This subject always throws a monkeywrench into the works with all sides fighting usually among themselves and agreeing with the person they were flaming just a thread ago. Dethspud's #73 just threw me and he is someone I almost agree with 100% of the time. Proves to me that everyone here is pretty much a free thinker instead of a partisan hack and makes me respect us all the more.

I stated I would let the little girl you so proudly would allow to fight your battle go first.

Then I would use my laser guided .45 in retaliation against you stating it was the intention of your actions through the little girl.

Uh huh.... in other words, you have finally come around and agreed that Israel is right in this. Kudos to you.

Now I know they don't teach sex ed in Florida but do they teach reading?

And really, a little girl with a gun? That is the best you can come up with?

BTW... maybe YOU need to learn to read. Where did I say a "little girl"? I think my quote was (and I will bold the relevant part for the intellectually challenged):

why don't you play "William Tell" with my neighbor. She has a bad case of lazy eye.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I just don't see anything in my statement to suggest her age.

You seem to be a master of the self-retort.

No one is making anyone live in a tent

~BBob

Sure they are.

Israel drops American made cluster bombs on civilian populations and the residents suddenly find it's safer to live in a tent on the outskirts of wot used to be their town than to pick up little chunks of wot used to be their kids.

See also: American use of clusterbombs in Afghanistan.

Israel has illegally occupied Palestine fer thirty plus years now. Brutalised, ghettoised, starved, bombed, cut off money, stolen eater, built walls to decimate their populations wetc etc ad nauseum. Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region and the both steadfastedly refuse to do so and all the while blame the Pals fer everything.

It's bullshit and if you can't see it yer not really looking.

Be Well.

Israel drops American made cluster bombs on civilian populations and the residents suddenly find it's safer to live in a tent on the outskirts of wot used to be their town than to pick up little chunks of wot used to be their kids.

Spud,

That is because, unlike a real army, Hamas hides in and attacks from those civilian populations. Most countries set up their military in areas away from civilians inorder to minimize these types of attacks. Why not condemn Hams for using these people as sheilds instead of condemning Israel?

Israel has illegally occupied Palestine fer thirty plus years now.

That is a joke! Illegally? Really? Since when is occupying land used to attack your land and taken in defense of your land considered illegal and by what law is it illegal? Perhaps people should do some research into the 1967 war in which Israel took Gaza to get some relevent information.

It's bullshit and if you can't see it yer not really looking.

Ah yes... the old "if you don't agree with me you are blind" canard. How boorish. Not that I am surprised considering the source.

A Kanrei Repost of a Kanrei Post Because My Ego is That Big:

It is like when my little sister would punch me over and over again. I would let it go once, twice, but I would hit her back and she would go screaming to our mom and I would get in trouble. THat his Hamas' plan.

Posted by kanrei at 2008-12-30 11:51 AM |

Both sides are worthy of condemnation for their tactics, but even more so their leaders for not finding available solutions based on land for peace.

Of course, the Pals are pawns of other mid-eastern states who could really not give a flying frack about them, and Israel has succumbed to American-style fear and paranoia fed them by their military/industrial complex.

The Corky Common Sense saves the day. Post of the day IMHO.

And I've always appreciated K's uncommonly good taste in posts.... ;^)

Happy almost New Years, Kanrei.

You too Corky. Most people either forget or don't know the PLO was originally trying to take land from Jordan until they realized the world's view of Jews would take them farther and went after Israel instead.

" but even more so their leaders for not finding available solutions based on land for peace. "

The Palestinians don't even have a leader who has the authority and desire to promise peace on behalf of his people. Hamas rejects peace with Israel. No Palestinian leader will stand up to Hamas. Therefore, by default, Hamas is allowed to dictate the Palestinian position: No peace with Israel, ever.

That makes negotiations impossible. You can't get around this. If the Palestinians refuse to control Hamas and Hamas won't allow peace then there is no reason to even show up to the bargaining table.

Get a room, you two.

-Get a room, you two.

Been there, done that.

Aside from the fact that Israel's response was anything but judicious, the idea that it was Hamas who broke the six-month truce is a complete fabrication.

On the night of the U.S. election, Israel fired missiles on Gaza that were aimed at closing down a tunnel operation they believed Hamas was building in order to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The carnage left in the wake of Israel's bombing of Gaza over the past six weeks has killed dozens of Palestinians.

"The escalation towards war could, and should, have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid ... two months ago," the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom wrote in a press release. "Since then, the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased."

Over the last seven years only 17 Israeli citizens have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire, which makes it extremely difficult for Israeli politicians, which are in the midst of an election, to argue that their response has been proportionate or defensible in any way.

Been there, done that.
#89 | Posted by Corky

Sully

Hamas did not always have such influence, said influence having grown during Israel and Bush's last 8 years of doing nothing.

They may be made weak enough by this fight to allow a more moderate stance from Pals, and a new chance for peace from a new active American effort for peace.

On the night of the U.S. election, Israel fired missiles on Gaza that were aimed at closing down a tunnel operation they believed Hamas was building in order to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The carnage left in the wake of Israel's bombing of Gaza over the past six weeks has killed dozens of Palestinians.

Was there a tunnel being built? If yes, then how was the building of the tunnel not a violation of the cease fire?

#77 | Posted by moomanfl

No I do not agree that Israel is within its right to collectively punish women and children.

The example was one of power (there is that Florida education thing again). Israel claims that rockets that hit in open fields is equivalent to the IDF air strikes in densely populated ares.

Lets face it, the IDF is a second rate army with weapons beyond there control. That is why there will be no ground invasion until the air strikes level Gaza. They are terrified that since they lost to Hezbollah that a second loss will turn the tide against the jewish state and leave them in their most vulnerable state.

I spent some time in Israel while in the service and I have schooled with some of the IDF. Dumb as rocks.

On the other hand I have made friends there that I write to today. The Semites are good people, the neocons are idiots. The Israeli's would do better without them.

Lets face it, the IDF is a second rate army with weapons beyond there control.

So you ignore the retard with a loaded zip gun just because he is a retard and cannot control the gun, or do you take the gun away from the retard?

No I do not agree that Israel is within its right to collectively punish women and children.

Oh gee... I didn't realize that Israel was intentionally targeting women and children. And here I thought they were just protecting THEIR women and children from people that attack from the middle of their own women and children (using them as sheilds).

Go figure. And you call the IDF dumb as rocks? Takes one to know one I suppose.

I spent some time in Israel while in the service and I have schooled with some of the IDF. Dumb as rocks.

#94 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2008-12-30 01:58 PM

But how much smarter were they before you schooled with them?

Oh gee... I didn't realize that Israel was intentionally targeting women and children.

You didn't?

Then yer dumber than a rock.

Or you got yer head buried in the sand.

Be Well.

Dethspud,
Prove the "intentionally targeting" part or stop calling people dumb for not agreeing with you. Women and children are hit, but to say Israel is passing up other targets to kill women and children is ridiculous.

Then yer dumber than a rock.

Or you got yer head buried in the sand.

I'm sorry, you must have mistaken yourself for someone of consequence... was I supposed to take you seriously?

Intentionally targeting children:

Israeli 1: They have a carbomb plant on the east side of town or there is a school on the west.

Israeli 2: Let's get the school...the car bombs are already made, but the kids could become terrorists one day.

Israeli 1: Brilliant!

but to say Israel is passing up other targets to kill women and children is ridiculous.

Not only ridiculous, but irresponsible in the extreme.

#96 | Posted by moomanfl

Well, if you target apartment buildings who do you think will be there? I know your hatred of your fellow Semites is too hard for you to accept but try. You are killing your own kind.

#97 | Posted by kanrei

At Tech school they got an automatic pass because they could not understand the material, would speak to each other in hebrew during tests and Israel could not be humiliated so they passed.

Then we fixed everything for them.

And Yes I would take away their weapons. They have proven they are not up to the task.

"Hamas did not always have such influence, said influence having grown during Israel and Bush's last 8 years of doing nothing. "

Hamas is more influential now politically but there has never been a Palestinian leader who had the will and the power to stand up to the militants. Not ever Arafat could have stopped Hamas, assuming he ever wanted to do so. And as long as Hamas could say "We reject any deal" - which they have done all along - then they have veto power over the peace process. Hamas has enjoyed this veto power for pretty much as long as they have existed. There is no getting around this.

I hate Bush but the Palestinians being hopelessly idiotic and unorganized as a people is not his fault. Personally, I think if the world were more honest with the Palestinians, they might wake up and make some changes to improve their own lot. But it seems that because the world can sympathize with their anger, they get a free pass on the self destructive stupidity of their actions.

And Yes I would take away their weapons. They have proven they are not up to the task.

I would let them keep whatever weapons that they purchased on their own. I would just not sell them anymore and stop 100% of US Aid going to the terrorists state along with outlawing US citizens to send their own money under anti-terrorist rules.

Well, if you target apartment buildings who do you think will be there?

Uh huh... and they are targeting that apartment building because there are women and children there and not because they believe there is a high value Hamas operative there, or maybe a bunch of weapons and things like that that would be or have been used against them. Hamas is well known to use residential areas as staging areas for their attacks, simply so they can claim victim later when that staging area is hit and their human shields get hurt or killed.

That is because, unlike a real army, Hamas hides in and attacks from those civilian populations. Most countries set up their military in areas away from civilians inorder to minimize these types of attacks. Why not condemn Hamas for using these people as sheilds instead of condemning Israel?

~Kanrei

The part yer somehow failing to glom onto here, Kanrei, is that the reason the Palestinians attack from population centers is cos that's all they got.

This isn't a war in the conventional sense.

The Pals don't own jets with bombs attached, they don't have any tanks, they don't have gunships off-shore waiting to bombard people trying to picnic on the beach.

Israel has all those things and uses them against them.

The Pals are a home grown committed insurgency fighting against the illegal occcupation of their land.

Just like in Iraq.
Just like in Afghanistan.
Just like in Vietnam before this.

Israel has cynically taken the tack that it's easier to create instability in Palestine and use that as a reason for why the occupation can never end than to earnestly work towards a peaceful solution in the area.

Quite frankly, peace could have been achieved many times in the last thirty years but the US and Israel didn't want it.

Yes, Spud is aware that all you've mananged to read in the last thirty years on the conflict sez otherwise and Spud sez to you that that propaganda is a large part of the problem too.

Spud is actually Pro-Israel.

Spud is also anti-Zionist and anti-Nazi.

Why doesn't Spud praise Israel and condem Palestine?

Spud does condemn Palestine.

Spud condems them fer holding onto their stupid self defeating "Won't recognise Israel" platform.

Spud condemns them fer shooting rockets into Israeli civilian population centers.

There's blame enuff to go around here and still have a whack left over fer breakfast the next day.

But a clear understanding of the situation here would indicate that Israel has deliberately made the situation worse and worse over the years till we get to today where the Pals are crazier than shithouse rats, where their hate fer Israel has been bred in the bone.

In terms of praise fer Israel?

Did you know there are refuseniks in Israel?

Young men who refuse to do their compulsary IDF military service becasue they've heard the horror stories of wot goes on in th occupied territories (which Israel calls the "disputed territories, btw) and they don't want to lose their essential humanity.

Some call them cowards.

Spud calls 'em Heros.

Be Well.

Good post (#104), Sully.

The part yer somehow failing to glom onto here, Kanrei, is that the reason the Palestinians attack from population centers is cos that's all they got.

That is not true and you know it. Attacking from populated areas is a new tactic for them in this already 60 year war. They use it because it gets the exact reaction from the international community that it gets. They are using human shields, their own women and children as shields, and then attacking from behind them and blaming Israel for fighting back.

The part yer somehow failing to glom onto here, Kanrei, is that the reason the Palestinians attack from population centers is cos that's all they got.

Which of course also explains suicide bombing buses of women and children...

Sorry, but your attempt to paint the Palestinians as helpless victims with no choice just rings false.

#106 | Posted by moomanfl

If you have paid attention to what I have posted you would understand that an air strike is not to be used in close quarters because you will kill innocent people regardless of the target.

Why doesn't the IDF get off their lazy coward asses and go pry Hamas out of their stronghold instead of killing women and children? Tradition holds that you warn the population you are coming so they may get out of the way. If they stay then their fate is in their own hands.

That is what those tanks and rifle are for. Instead they stand by in a circle jerk cheering for more air strikes claiming how powerful they are.

I say go hand to hand and finish this off if they have the guts. But they don't.

Airstrikes are a common tactic of armies that do not wish a full invasion. There is a stigma attached to troop movement that, for some reason, the world does not attach to airstrikes or minor actions. Imagine the Hell that would break out if Israel had invaded instead.

If you have paid attention to what I have posted you would understand that an air strike is not to be used in close quarters because you will kill innocent people regardless of the target.

Because you say so? I don't think so. Sorry, but Israel is responsible for protecting IT'S citizens. The Palestinians should be protecting theirs... not putting them at risk by making sure the only way for Israel to defend their women and children is by taking on the Palestinian's.

Tradition holds that you warn the population you are coming so they may get out of the way.

And reality shows that if you do that when the enemy is hiding in with the population, they will just MOVE with their human shields. Of course reality isn't your strong suit.

BTW... when they move with their human shields you then have to take the time to try and find exactly WHERE they went again, during which your women and children are still at risk. So, the only alternative to keep casualties among your own women and children to a minimum is the quick air strike by surprise while you know where they are.

Dethspud,
Prove the "intentionally targeting" part or stop calling people dumb for not agreeing with you. Women and children are hit, but to say Israel is passing up other targets to kill women and children is ridiculous.

Who do you think are traditionally the most likely victims of unexploded clusterbombs?

Kids, that's who.

Israel's tactics in Palestine are designed to stir up the most hatred they can in order to perpetuate their excuse fer not being able to secure the peace despite being the only ones in any sort of position to do so.

Haneen, who was eight years old, had been shot twice in the head by an Israeli soldier as she walked down the street in Khan Yunis refugee camp with her mother, Lila Abu Selmi.

"Almost every day here the Israelis shoot at random, so when you hear it you get inside as quickly as possible," says Mrs Selmi. "Haneen went to the grocery store to buy some crisps. When the shooting started, I came out to find her. She was coming down the street and ran to me and hugged me, crying, 'Mother, mother'. Two bullets hit her in the head, one straight after the other. She was still in my arms and she died."

Tradition holds that you warn the population you are coming so they may get out of the way.

Dear Native Population,
We are coming in three days with troops and planes. Please do all you can to vacate the area by this time, but please do not let our targets know we are coming.

To our Targets,
Please allow the native population to leave without hiding among them. Also, please wear something that makes you stand out from the population so that we may target you easier.

Thanks in advance,
Your Oppressors

-they get a free pass

Funny, it doesn't look like a free pass with all those explosions going off.

As mentioned, both highly nationalistic sides have been at fault, Hamas with their terror tactics and Israel with their land grabbing and tanks.

Hamas may suffer enough damage this time to be weakened to the point that a new American initiative that includes a tougher stance towards Israel could have success.

Or, we could wait for "the Princes of the North" to invade the Plains of Megiddo.

Who do you think are traditionally the most likely victims of unexploded clusterbombs?

Kids, that's who.

Whoever is closest to the bomb when it goes off. Are these bombs candy coated or offering toys to get kids to get close to them?

"Almost every day here the Israelis shoot at random, so when you hear it you get inside as quickly as possible,"

Random shooting is not intentional targeting and there are evil troops in all armys that do evil things when given the free reign of war. Americans did horribel things to Iraqis, but that does not make the American army or American in general evil or sadistic.

#114 | Posted by moomanfl

So because the IDF is afraid to commit to all out war (which is what they are saying) they prefer to kill children from the air and state "well they shouldn't be there." I got that.

Since they are only Semites they deserve to die right?

Lets face it, Israel is afraid to lose a war right now so they are using air strikes in an attempt at regime change within Gaza.

It won't work. Their weakness is showing. Don't you think other nations are watching how much of a coward Israel is being. They are fighting women and children.

Name me one war where air strikes were the only method used and it was successful?

Bombs with a lot more guidance control than the rockets being shot into Sderot.

Is that "intentionally targeting" or merely "don't give a fuck"?

Either way it's evil.

Can you prove that it's not?

Be Well.

Are you suggesting that it is less evil to fire a missile without a guidence system into a known civilian population than to fire one with? Which is really saying "I don't give a fuck?"

Which of course also explains suicide bombing buses of women and children...

Sorry, but your attempt to paint the Palestinians as helpless victims with no choice just rings false.

#110 | Posted by moomanfl

Don't be a tool, Moo.

Obviously, Spud deplores the tactic of suicide bombings that deliberately target women and children.

Just as Spud deplores the Israeli tactics of bombing population centers which is a form of targetting women and children too.

Sorry, but yer attempts to paint the Israelis as helpless victims with no choice other than to bomb the shit out of a people who don't have the resources to fight back just rings false.

Spud is perfectly willing to condemn both sides but you seem content to condemn only one while defending the other.

A victim of the propaganda or just a partisan hack?

Spud retorts.
Blogworld decides.

Be Well.

Israel's tactics in Palestine are designed to stir up the most hatred they can in order to perpetuate their excuse fer not being able to secure the peace despite being the only ones in any sort of position to do so.

Do you realize just how stupid you sound saying this?

Israel according to Spud: "Ooops.... we weren't able to secure the peace. The world will be mad at us. Hurry cover our tracks by making them HATE us instead."

Come on, Spud. That was a moronic response even for you.

Is that "intentionally targeting" or merely "don't give a fuck"?

Or how about desperate to keep these evil bastards that were putting bombs on buses with women and children, sending mortar rounds into residential areas, and fire rockets into populated areas from killing any more of THEIR women and children.

Sorry, but just because you don't want to list other alternatives doesn't mean they don't exist.

Either way it's evil.

Can you prove that it's not?

Sorry, not my job to prove that it is evil, it is your job to prove it is. That will be hard for you to do since you keep selectively ignoring other possibilities that don't agree with the conclusions you have already settled on.

#116 | Posted by kanre

This happened in every war we fought. We would drop leaflets in the general population give them a day to clear out, if you don't you are considered the enemy.

That is honor in battle.

Israel would not know honor if the US gave it to them in their foreign aid package.

Sorry, but yer attempts to paint the Israelis as helpless victims with no choice other than to bomb the shit out of a people who don't have the resources to fight back just rings false.

Spud is perfectly willing to condemn both sides but you seem content to condemn only one while defending the other.

No Spud, you are not condeming both sides unless both sides is Israel and America.

Israel has illegally occupied Palestine fer thirty plus years now. Brutalised, ghettoised, starved, bombed, cut off money, stolen eater, built walls to decimate their populations wetc etc ad nauseum. Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region and the both steadfastedly refuse to do so and all the while blame the Pals fer everything.

It's bullshit and if you can't see it yer not really looking.

Be Well.

Posted by dethspud at 2008-12-30 01:34 PM

Are you suggesting that it is less evil to fire a missile without a guidence system into a known civilian population than to fire one with? Which is really saying "I don't give a fuck?"

~Kanrei

Spud is suggesting that in terms of "intentionally targetting" only one side truly has the capability as far as rocketry goes.

Ergo, if the Israel bombs are deliberately killing school kids then they are more at fault than the Pals who simply don't have that capability.

Be Well.

#123 | Posted by moomanfl

Sorry, not my job to prove that it is evil, it is your job to prove it is.

Would you say this about the holocaust?

Sorry, but yer attempts to paint the Israelis as helpless victims with no choice other than to bomb the shit out of a people who don't have the resources to fight back just rings false.

Ummm... it rings false when you are the one making the ridiculous claim that they don't have the resources to fight back? Despite over 300 rockets in recent days, and mortar fire on top of that? You have an odd idea about what constitutes "no resources".

No Spud,
If I fire a gun into a school, I am targeting the school even though the bullet has no guidence system. If Hamas is selecting non-military targets to launch missiles at, then they are intentionally targeting women and children as well.

Would you say this about the holocaust?

Absolutely. And the Nazi's proved it themselves when they stated their goal of extermination of the Jews.

Now, has Israel claimed they want to exterminate an entire race of people? No? Gee... guess you better find another analogy then.

No, Spud, you are not condeming both sides unless both sides is Israel and America.

~Kanrei

Obviously, Spud deplores the tactic of suicide bombings that deliberately target women and children.

Spud does condemn Palestine.

Spud condems them fer holding onto their stupid self defeating "Won't recognise Israel" platform.

Spud condemns them fer shooting rockets into Israeli civilian population centers.

There's blame enuff to go around here and still have a whack left over fer breakfast the next day.

There.

Now you try it.

If you dare.

If you Kan.

Be Well.

And Spud, missiles, even those without guidence systems, counts as resources to fight.

Spud,

Reread your own words from that high horse and show me where you condemn both sides:

Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region and the both steadfastedly refuse to do so and all the while blame the Pals fer everything.

Do you deny these words are yours or are you just changing your point of view when being called on your selective opinions?

The argument seems to have degraded into which is worse? children dying from Israeli guided missles or children dying from Pal guided suicide bombers.

They are equally evil.

There.

Now you try it.

If you dare.

If you Kan.

Be Well.

#131 | Posted by dethspud at 2008-12-30 02:56 PM

Your tactics don't work against me Spud. I am one of the few well known fair posters here who everyone knows always admits when I am error. I don't need to dare anythign as my reputation as a non-Israel supporting American Jew is also well known here.

Spud is suggesting that in terms of "intentionally targetting" only one side truly has the capability as far as rocketry goes.

Ergo, if the Israel bombs are deliberately killing school kids then they are more at fault than the Pals who simply don't have that capability.

Absolutely. And the Nazi's proved it themselves when they stated their goal of extermination of the Jews.

Actually, the Nazis lied about wanting to exterminate the Jews.

They made fake documentaries how the concentration camps were really swell places with lots of food and so much safer than those pesky Ghettos the Jews had been forced into.

The Israelis also lie here as do the Pals.

The Propaganda war never sleeps in the ME.

Rather than work Pals to death or gas them the Israels have decided to starve them, humiliate them, ghettoise them, demonise them, destabilise 'em, imprison 'em, torture them and bomb the shit out of them.

Dead is dead.

Fascism is fascism.

The Nazi analogy is apt.

Be Well.

Israel are acting like Nazis here.

The irony, the irony.

Be Well.

#73 | Posted by dethspud at 2008-12-30 01:25 PM

Be Well

Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region and the both steadfastedly refuse to do so and all the while blame the Pals fer everything.

See, that statement inadvertently showed what Spuds real thoughts are. Lets break it down:

Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region

In other words, it is all Israels fault.

Israel, according to Spud, is solely (or with America) responsible for the fighting.

This means that, according to Spud, if the Palestinians gave up, and didn't do another thing, Israel would just keep on bombing and killing.

If Spud doesn't believe that is true, then he couldn't say that ONLY Israel and America have the power to make peace since there would obviously be at least ONE thing the Palestinians could do.

Now, reasonable and logical people don't believe that about Israel. If the Palestinians stopped completely and verifiably, so would Israel. So that first part is false.

Now for the last part:

and all the while blame the Pals fer everything.

Well, this is simple. Considering the lie of the first part, that makes this part a self-retort.

Would you say this about the holocaust?

Absolutely. And the Nazi's proved it themselves when they stated their goal of extermination of the Jews.

Now, has Israel claimed they want to exterminate an entire race of people? No? Gee... guess you better find another analogy then.

#130 | Posted by moomanfl

Let's break this down.

It was war time.
All options were on the table.
The Nazi's saw the jews as enemies.
In war you vanquish your enemies.
You happen to use disproportional means to achieve your goal.

So evil in your terms is a matter of semantics?

And yes it is the stated purpose of Israel to never allow a Palestinian State to coexist with Israel. As a matter of fact Tippi just stated "it would be best if Arab Israelis go find their own country and leave Israel."

What would you call that? Ethnic Cleansing? Exterminating all Arabs in Israel?

Spud: Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region and the both steadfastedly refuse to do so and all the while blame the Pals fer everything.

Kanrei: Do you deny these words are yours or are you just changing your point of view when being called on your selective opinions?

Speaking of "selective", ignoring Spud's quote where he specifically condemns the Palestinians tactics is very selective of you, doncha think?

Are you trying to suggest that America and Israel don't hold all the cards here? That they don't enjoy massive technological and military superiority? That the peace process is solely in the hands of the Palestinians?

Yer not that dumb, are ya?

And Spud, missiles, even those without guidence systems, counts as resources to fight.

#132 | Posted by kanrei

Nobody is saying that the Pals are totally defenceless here. That's a false argument. The truth here is that, in terms of resources, the Pals v. Israel look like a little blind five year old with a spud gun taking on a steroid enraged Mike Tyson with a Mac10.

Be Well.

And yes it is the stated purpose of Israel to never allow a Palestinian State to coexist with Israel.

A stated purpose will be easy to find, so find it. We can find Iran wanting to drive Israel into the sea and we can find things Hamas says easily, so please find where this is Israel's stated purpose to never allow a Palestinian state to coexist.

Actually, the Nazis lied about wanting to exterminate the Jews.

Idiot. Do you have any proof, other than the fact that you need it to be true to support your argument, that Israel wants extermination for other non-Jew Semites and especially the Palestinians?

Are you trying to suggest that America and Israel don't hold all the cards here? That they don't enjoy massive technological and military superiority?

So the side with the best toys is always wrong, regardless of who hits first or how often? Are you that narrow-minded?

That the peace process is solely in the hands of the Palestinians?

Yer not that dumb, are ya?

I never said it was, but you have said over and over that ONLY Israel and America can bring peace to the area so, in your eyes, the Pals are helpless victims.

It was war time.
All options were on the table.
The Nazi's saw the jews as enemies.
In war you vanquish your enemies.
You happen to use disproportional means to achieve your goal.

Prolix,

We already established you were a moron. No need to prove it further.

The Jews weren't attacking the Nazi's. The Palestinians HAVE been attacking Israel, even when Israel wasn't attacking them.

Pick a better analogy.

As Kids: If my little sister keeps hitting me, going into my room and breaking my toys, and calling me names-am I wrong to hit her back? When she cries to my mother, I am the one who gets in trouble, but that does not mean I was wrong nor that she was innoncent.

While might does not make right, it does not automatically mean you are wrong either.

#142 | Posted by kanrei

Look at any speech made by Bibi.

Spud: Only Israel and their bully big brother America have the power to make peace in the region

MooMoo: In other words, it is all Israels fault.

No, moran.

Yer trying to say that it is all Palestine's fault and that's wrong.

Spud blames all sides but recognises that the only one with POWER to enforce a Peace are the US and Israel.

Why can't you see that simple, obvious truth?

Be Well.

"Tradition holds that you warn the population you are coming so they may get out of the way."

Israel did this. They kept saying "stop the rockets or we are coming". Hamas said "No."

I knew at least two days before the attack that it was coming and when and I was busy enjoying my holiday at the time.

To say the Palestinians were not warned in this case is blatantly false.

Truth is, Hamas doesn't allow its human shields to decide not to be human shields. What do you think happens to the father who tells Hamas not to fire mortars from atop his family's residence?

#145 | Posted by moomanfl

It was a time of war. Period. Comprehension please.

Any perceived enemy is still an enemy in war.

It was a time of war. Period. Comprehension please.

Any perceived enemy is still an enemy in war.

#151 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2008-12-30 03:17 PM |

So you are perfectly fine with Israel's actions after all then since Israel has been in a state of war since 1948 and any perceived enemy is an enemy in war. I would say the people launching missiles into your backyard qualifies as an enemy.

"Spud blames all sides but recognises that the only one with POWER to enforce a Peace are the US and Israel."

How do you think one uses to POWER to enforce peace when dealing with people who are determined to violently undermine peace?

You kill them.

To pretend that one can unilaterally bring peace to the region without using violence against Hamas is an exercise sophistry.

#150 | Posted by Sully

I was referencing ground wars. Air strikes are inappropriate in residential areas.

Sully,
No. Spud wants Israel to look at the incoming missiles and suicide bombers and say "awe, how cute" and do nothing more.

#152 | Posted by kanrei

If you put people in an open air prison it is your responsibility to care for them.

This is more a prison riot that a state to state war.

No, moran.

What a living, breathing self-retort you are.

Yer trying to say that it is all Palestine's fault and that's wrong.

And I have demonstrated that you say the equivalent from the opposite argument out of at least one side of your mouth. Quite a feat for you considering where your head is placed.

the only one with POWER to enforce a Peace are the US and Israel.

And I already showed that to be a ridiculous assertion that simply self-retorts your idea that you condemn both sides. You like to PLAY at condemning both sides, reality is a bit different however.

Why can't you see that simple, obvious truth?

Because it is only simple to a simpleton, and only the truth to someone that obviously wouldn't know the truth if it was right next to their head (that is to say, up their ass).

Mooman you didn't mention or answer this question:

As a matter of fact Tippi just stated "it would be best if Arab Israelis go find their own country and leave Israel."

What would you call that? Ethnic Cleansing? Exterminating all Arabs in Israel?

If you put people in an open air prison it is your responsibility to care for them.

This is more a prison riot that a state to state war.

Bullshit.

They were able to freely roam, except that they kept bombing buses with women and children... on purpose.

If I knew that someone was going to set off a grenade killing my wife and kids if I let them on my property, I would do anything I could to keep them of my property. Period.

I just Googled the quote "it would be best if Arab Israelis go find their own country and leave Israel" and found (shockingly) NO LINKS. I would love a link to this quote please.

"it would be best if Arab Israelis go find their own country and leave Israel."

Yes, and if my wife was trying to kill me and the kids for whatever weird reason she used to justify it... I would suggest she leave before doing it also. Better that than what I would have to do to protect myself and those that it is my duty to protect.

That still isn't a statement of "we must exterminate them" no matter how you try and stretch it.

Breaking News on MSNBC:

The campaign has brought a new reality to southern Israel, too, where one-tenth of the country's population of 7 million has suddenly found itself within rocket range. Militants have pressed on with their rocket and mortar assaults, killing three Israeli civilians and a soldier and bringing a widening circle of targets into their sights with an arsenal of more powerful weapons.

The military estimated that close to 700,000 Israelis are now within rocket range, with the battles shifting closer to Israel's heartland. Of the four Israelis killed since the operation began Saturday, all but one were in areas that had not suffered fatalities before.

Israel drops American made cluster bombs on civilian populations and the residents suddenly find it's safer to live in a tent on the outskirts of wot used to be their town than to pick up little chunks of wot used to be their kids.

#78 | Posted by dethspud at 2008-12-30 01:34 PM | Reply | Flag

link?

"I was referencing ground wars. Air strikes are inappropriate in residential areas."

The presence of rocket launchers, mortars, weapons caches, etc precludes an areas from being considered "residential" by the people those weapons are being used on......

And its pretty arrogant to pretend that you get to make the rules for people who are being attacked on a daily basis. The reason why Israel doesn't care about your rules is that they'd be idiots to care.

#160 | Posted by kanrei

It was in the news just last week. I am not even going to bother. There was a thread here on DR about this. You did not look hard enough. Did you even try?

Breaking News on Foxnews:

Israel is considering suspending its offensive on Hamas-ruled Gaza for 48 hours to give Hamas militants an opening to halt their rocket fire, but the threat of a ground offensive remains if the truce does not hold, Israeli officials said Tuesday.

It was in the news just last week. I am not even going to bother. There was a thread here on DR about this. You did not look hard enough. Did you even try?

#165 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2008-12-30 03:32 PM |

Yes, and here is the Google link for you.

#164 | Posted by Sully

Once again this is in the realm of ground war.

Unless you are a coward and do not trust your troops to get the job done. But the world already sees Israel is weak now.

Prolix,

Here it is in terms simple enough for you to understand (I am being optimistic):

If one of your little friends is over at your house playing, and you keep arguing about a toy, so they start throwing a tantrum... you might say that it would be best if they left. It is better than having to kick their ass. Of course if they didn't leave but kept up the behavior, then an ass-kicking it would have to be.

Asking someone that is causing that degree of trouble is not a statement of desired extermination. Quite the opposite... it is a statement to try and avoid conflict.

Unless you are a coward and do not trust your troops to get the job done. But the world already sees Israel is weak now.

#168 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2008-12-30 03:34 PM

Keep up with the news....ground war starts in 48 hours if Hamas does not stop the missiles, per Fox and MSNBC.

#169 | Posted by moomanfl

So you believe in Ethnic Cleansing? Is that what you are trying to say. Remember I am stupid.

Remember I am stupid.

Apparently you are.

Remember I am stupid.

#171 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2008-12-30 03:37 PM

That could have avoided so much if you had just admitted this simple fact hours ago. Thanks for finally confirming it. Better late than never.

Spud: No, moran.

Ancients of MuMu: What a living, breathing self-retort you are.

#170 | Posted by kanrei

So we will see if your boys are up to the task then right?

Seems like Prolix now needs an Oral Pedectomy right after he gets his Cranial Colonectomy.

#172 | Posted by moomanfl

Do you believe in Ethnic Cleansing?

If someone came and took my country (1948), then for the next 60 years they treated me like a second class citizen, my relatives were spread across the region as refugees, they kicked my neighbor's doors down in the middle of the night, occupied the land we were supposed to live on, created checkpoints, took our treaty given land whenever they felt like it and built settlements against the very treaties they'd signed their names too, I'd be a pissed off at whomever did that in the little slices of what was once my country.

Wouldn't you be?

That was a geek check.

You FAILed.

Ummm... I will try and contain my sorrow at actually having a life and having been laid.

The rest of yer post is mere incoherant rambling without a single rational argument within it.

Well, it would at least seem so by someone to dumb to understand the argument.

Spud FTW!

Wow, Spud. Don't take it out on the world just because I got the better of you.

#176 | Posted by moomanfl

Got backed into a corner you created yourself and now you want to name call?

Sounds familiar.

Where have I heard this before?

HHHHHMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!

If someone came and took my country (1948)...

See, this is an example of the kind of stupid post you get when the poster has only bothered to skim chapter titles in a history book instead of actually reading the whole thing.

This is really going to be a weird year. Today's fight was:

Kanrei and Moomanfl
-VS-
Dethspud and Prolix247

The weird part:

Kanrei and Dethspud are left leaning Drudgies and Prolix and Mooman are righties. Hold on to your ass in 2009, it is going to be a bumpy ride.

Got backed into a corner you created yourself and now you want to name call?

No... actually your assertion was moronic with no discernible connection between what I said and the conclusion you came to.

I was honored to fight on your side today Kanrei.

That just goes to show why I always say I would be willing to by you a beer even if I never agree with you on here.

#178 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2008-12-30 03:44 PM

WHat if someone took your country and then enriched their own off of your former resources, then passed laws to keep you out, used tarrifs to destroy your local businesess, and then built a wall to keep you out? Mexico should be pissed.

Same here Moon and I still respect Deth. I don't know Prolix that well, but I can say I have no ill will for him.

See, this is an example of the kind of stupid post you get when the poster has only bothered to skim chapter titles in a history book instead of actually reading the whole thing.

#181 | Posted by moomanf

See, this is an example of the kind of arrogant and presumptuous statement you get from people who think they're the only ones who've followed events closely in the Middle East for decades.

Arrogant idiot.

link?

~BB

A child plays in the streets of Aitta Shaaba, a village riddled with cluster bombs. Photograph: Scott Peterson/Getty

#169 | Posted by moomanfl

I could swear this post has hints of ethic cleansing

#161 | Posted by moomanfl

Oh my, this one too.

You see post long enough and your prejudices show though.

Arrogant idiot.

Awwww... he likes me. He REALLY likes me. Don't get any funny ideas there, AU.

#186 | Posted by kanrei

I appreciate that Kanrei. I have no ill will for any poster here. I might not agree with a viewpoint but aren't we lucky we have this outlet.

Same here Moon and I still respect Deth. I don't know Prolix that well, but I can say I have no ill will for him.

~Kanrei

Spud still has tons of respect fer Kanrei as well.

Spud not about the hate Spud's all about the luff.

That sed, Deth can be a really snarky bastard when the shit starts flying.

Spud would be proud to buy Kanrei a beer anytime.

Moonman too ...but only in a half pint glass.

^_^

There are actually very few people here at the DR that Spud has a real hassle with.

Even if Spud don't agree with everybody (and seriously how boring would that be?) Spud at least respect everyone's right to an opinion and, believe it or not, Spud actually learns more stuff than he teaches hereabouts.

Beats hanging out in smokey pool halls anyway.

Be Well.

#184 | Posted by moomanfl

Hey Don Quixote - they are only windmills

#169 | Posted by moomanfl

I could swear this post has hints of ethic cleansing

#161 | Posted by moomanfl

Oh my, this one too.

Hence this little exchange:

Remember I am stupid.

#171 | Posted by Prolix247 at 2008-12-30 03:37 PM

Apparently you are.

#172 | Posted by moomanfl at 2008-12-30 03:38 PM

I can't be blamed for whatever delusions you may have about other peoples positions. What ever in my posts convinced you of that, I have no idea. Don't really care either. You are welcome to your idiot assumptions.

Prolix,
I am happy to took that the way I meant it and not how I realized it could be read after I hit "post." I don't mean I don't repect your opinion, just that I have not debated with you long enough yet to know if you are a believer of what you say or just a debater. I love the outlet and the country that I don't have to fear what I post coming back to kill me.

Kanrei and Moomanfl
-VS-
Dethspud and Prolix247
#182 | Posted by kanrei

I think somebody already made this movie.

I love the outlet and the country that I don't have to fear what I post coming back to kill me.
#195 | Posted by kanrei

Don't be too sure about that one, kanrei. Just ask Rob the Ahole.

aren't we lucky we have this outlet.

~Prolix

Agreed.

Realtime, many to many, simultaneous, trans global communication.

First time ever in the history of mankind.

We don't really understand how precious and special this gift is.

We won't really have an idea until the powers that be try taking it away.

Free Beer fer Prolix too!

/Beer is gud!

Be Well.

Every thread should end this way, not that this thread is ending, but there should be a moment where the debators step out of their sides and acknowledge the other side's fighters. This place would suck without those we disagree with.

Spud would be proud to buy Kanrei a beer anytime.

Moonman too ...but only in a half pint glass.

Well, Spud, contradictory views on most things and name calling aside, you would get a full pint from me.

MOOMANFL

I don't like your presumptuous attitude. It's not personal. You choose to make it so.

I'm a history buff, and have been an avid news hound since I was a kid. I remember when Golda Meir was Prime Minister. I've lived through it and followed events closely.

Don't make idiotic statements, as you have to several people, inferring you're the only one who studies history or current events from the last few decades. The hundreds of books in my house aren't fluff. My TV works, I've read news stories every day of my life.

I don't know it all, but you're way out of line today champ.

This place would suck without those we disagree with.

Indeed it would.

#195 | Posted by kanrei

I agree, We are all more alike than we will admit.

And Yes, I do believe in what I say. I really try to stay away from arguing just for the sake of it. I like different opinions. That is when you grow.

I don't like your presumptuous attitude. It's not personal. You choose to make it so.

Then you are taking it too seriously, friend (and that isn't sarcastic).

I'm a history buff, and have been an avid news hound since I was a kid.

Then you certainly realize that not all historians agree all the time. That there can be more than one way to interpret things all too often.

I'm not going into the politics of either Israel or Hamas with my following comments. Both the people of Gaza and the citizens of Israel have legit complaints.

What I question is WHY NOW? These rockets have been (wrongly) lobbed over into Israel for years. And get real, Israel will not escalate this war without first getting an okay from the U.S. -- at least behind closed doors. We give Israel billions and no way are they going to piss us off by running renegade without a wink and a nod from the Bush Administration.

How convenient Israel decides now to go into a full fledged war less than 30 before our new President is sworn in. Something stinks. Do you mean Israel couldn't at least have waited at one more month until the new President was in office and maybe, just maybe, negotiations and peace attempts could have taken place to possibly work something out?

It's not like rockets from Gaza were being launched into Israel every hour on the hour. This same crap has been going on for years so what's another 30 days to wait until the new President comes in and give him a chance to talk to both sides.

I'm getting a strong wiff of "ode de Neoncon" in the air. The stench grows stronger each day. I have always felt Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the Neocons would not leave office until Iran was on the receiving end of a few nukes.

What makes me feel I'm right on about this too, is a couple of nights ago on CNN, I listened to one of their fellow Neocons -- John Bolton -- being interviewed and he explained how Hamas was connected with Iran, and if it were up to him [Bolton] Iran's nuclear facilities would have been taken out awhile ago (read: nuke Iran) and he felt that Iran should be taken care of ASAP (again read: nuke Iran).

My 2 cents: Israel is ramping up the war to drag Iran into this Gaza conflict one way or the other and the Neocons will, once again, satisfy their blood lust (and, of course, have an excuse for more warprofiteering).

I've taken heat here on DR in the past for saying the Neocons planned to nuke Iran when, so far, the Neocons have done nothing to date. But that's not because the Neoconss didn't want to, it's just because they FUBAR their war in Iraq so badly they had to put their "nuke Iran" plans under wraps for awhile. But now there's not much time left for the Neocons to stay in power.

Mark my words -- watch how Iran will be mentioned over and over again every time this latest Gaza/Israel conflict is talked about in the U.S. media -- especially if you listen to FOX news. I hope I'm wrong, but I believe Israel is intentionally racheting up the violence at the behest of Bush and his bloody band of Neocons and it will happen before January 20th.

Peace to all and bless those who have died because our politicians have failed.

BEERS FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, Spud, contradictory views on most things and name calling aside, you would get a full pint from me.

~Moonman

Peace to all and bless those who have died because our politicians have failed.

~Prolix247

Spud'll drink to THAT!

Be Well.

Well, yeah but Spud's talking about buying you a half pint of the good stuff. You know, Canadian beer.

Hell no! I was talking the REAL beer.... German. Or maybe a good English stout.

For American beers, I despise the watered down shit like Budweiser, Busch, etc. For American beers I prefer the dark beers. They are richer with more flavor and more kick.

Ideally I like a home brewed beer best.

Israel has every right to bomb hamas into the Iceage... Infact we should hit Iran right now. end this shit now.

Bud is not American.. lololol

I knew it. A bunch of beer nuts.

Then you certainly realize that not all historians agree all the time. That there can be more than one way to interpret things all too often.

MOOMANFL

I agree, MOOMAN

It's always been a never ending cycle of violence.

Factions on both sides are to blame. America is the only country that can exert influence, but we have to quit taking one side to the exclusion of the other. Also, the peace process there hasn't seen our involvement in far too many years. That particular conflict has been at the heart of Arab animosity - well, at least until we invaded Iraq (not trying to go partisan, just stating fact).

From the Palestinian viewpoint, Israel took their country and treat them badly. From Israel's point of view it was theirs to take.....again. World opinion is shifting from an 'all Israel' view. With the advent of the internet people can see the dead children and destruction for themselves.

Israel should stop the land grabs on the West Bank they've been partaking in for decades against treaties they signed. Rabid Israelis in the settlements carry guns and shoot at Palestinians on their own land. They seize farms. I understand the animosity the Palestinians have towards the Israelis. It wasn't enough they had their country taken from them. The Israelis have continued to take what little land the Palestinians were given in '48. I see their POV as well.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Bud is not American.. lololol

#211 | Posted by libslayer at 2008-12-30 04:19 PM

That depends on where you are posting from:

here is the corrected link from above:

Bud is American in my book. I just made some in the mens room.

From Israel's point of view it was theirs to take.....again

Especially since the Jews didn't just move in starting in 1948. There was already a HUGE population of Jews that had been living there for quite some time before the World Wars.

Hell no! I was talking the REAL beer.... German. Or maybe a good English stout.

Hell yeah, now yer talking.

Spud's favoritest of all time fer a number of years was Australia's Tooth Sheaf Stout.

Bastards don't make it anymore so Spud is usually stick to Guiness or a nice doppelbock.

Occasionally a nice India Pale Ale hits the spot.

Ooh and a Hemp Ale too. Humbolt makes a nice one.

Mmmmm Spud is thirsty now!

/Gots some chilled Shaftesbury Cream Ales leftover from Xmas that'll do just swell.

Be Well.

Bud is American in my book. I just made some in the mens room.

That must be why they call you Whizzgod.

Whizzgod lolololol

The way this was described on another web forum I frequent seems pretty accurate:

Hamas: "We do not recognise Israel!" *kills a bunch of civilians*

Israel: "We do not recognise Hamas!" *kills a bunch of civilians*

Civilians: "welp"

Just give me good old Jack and I'm good.

Just give me good old Jack and I'm good.

Bacardi 151... Jack is ok but after Bac 151 it goes down like water.

I don't mix well with 151. Like to fight on it.

From the mid-east to Kashmir to Africa, the world is still in turmoil from the divvying up and creations of countries as spoils of the last world war.

Generations have grown hating one group or another, and themselves, because of the greed of the mighty and the terror of the weak.

Now, in recent years we see the weak becoming the terrorists, often feeling justified in comparison to their masters. And the masters becoming ever more cruel.

Solutions are far and few between, harder and harder to come by as time goes on and debts of land and revenge mount.

Who do we turn to in our time of need?

Why, a new generation, of course....

Especially since the Jews didn't just move in starting in 1948. There was already a HUGE population of Jews that had been living there for quite some time before the World Wars.

#217 | Posted by moomanfl

Living in the country of Palestine.

I know the history, the Haganah, the whole story. I recall the boatloads of Jewish refugees in the aftermath of WW2 no country would take (including us).

Everyone signed onto the UN partition plan. Then the Israelis went on a campaign to grab more land - a campaign that continues to this day. Had they lived by the plan they signed onto, all this violence might have never been. Fair is fair. I don't consider the actions of Israel fair going way back. The six day war Israel started was a land grab. And so it goes .....

Everyone needs to get back behind the territorial lines, establish a Palestinian territory, return settlements built on Palestinian land in violation of multiple treaties, and take a deep breath. IMO the Israelis need to go first, get out of territories that aren't supposed to be theirs.

Kanrei and Dethspud are left leaning Drudgies and Prolix and Mooman are righties. Hold on to your ass in 2009, it is going to be a bumpy ride.

#182 | Posted by kanrei

Kanrei,
I am not a rightie. I have not belong to any party since I was in the military.

I am a liberal independent who believes in right and wrong (although I vote democratic mostly).

Do I write like a rightie?

I need to cut down on the caffeine.

If Israel and Egypt could make a peace that's lasted anything's possible.

PS

I'm not anti-Israel. I'm pro-fair is fair.

Did hamas brake the cease-fire? Fair is fair.....

There are 20,000 Hamas and 1.4 million Palestinians living in Gaza. Punishing the entire population as Israel has been doing - denying food shipments, humanitarian aid, etc. isn't what I call fair.

For the record my wife and I have been to two Hanukkah celebrations the last week. So, don't get the idea I'm some anti-Semite. Fair is fair.

"Punishing the entire population as Israel has been doing - denying food shipments, humanitarian aid, etc. isn't what I call fair."

If those savages would quit tossing tubers at Israel then maybe they could "talk"

The only thing the Hamas know is violence. How many rocket and grenade attackes does the world expect Israel to take before they finally say enough is enough!! You do not talk to these savages as the only thing that will make them happy is to wipe Israel off the map. Israel is doing what they have to do to survive and is to kill as many of these savages as they possibly can! I hope they kill every one of the son of a bitches!!

I hope they kill every one of the son of a bitches!!

"We love our killin'. The more the better. And we don't have to see a damn one of those women, old men, or children die 'cause it's real far away and they ain't showin' the bodies on TV neither. Yee Haw !!!!!"

-Compassionate Conservatives

DOUGLUVSGOLF

These pic should warm your heart. Especially the women and children. It's gory enough that even you should like them (snark):

The only thing the Hamas know is violence. How many rocket and grenade attackes does the world expect Israel to take before they finally say enough is enough!!

Israel knows only violence, israel has done nothing but attack and create war since given existance.

How much land should the palestinians continue to let israel take before something is done to stop it. Israel still has not given reparations to the people from the orginal stolen land, let alone all the land they have continue to take year after year.

Are you willing to give up your land to a repressive apartheid regime not allowing you to have a reasonable voice within the governmental system establish against your wishes.

This historical revisionism is interesting as a phenomenon. The idea that Israel was not repeatedly attacked by the surrounding Arab states is just untrue. Israel managed to survive.

The Islamic states are responsible for not absorbing the Palestinians as the Israelis absorbed an equivalent number of refugees from other countries. Instead, the Islamic powers that be, sought to cultivate the Palestinian plight for various agendas, and so declined to absorb them. Jordan, which did accept some of the bellicose Palestinians, was confronted by rebellion and attempts to overthrow the government that had provided them with hospitality.

Islamic aggression has served both the Arab communities and other converts well. From their Saudi Arabian base, the Arabs through warfare and aggression have subjugated people in surrounding areas. Maybe step 1 should be return of Arabs to Saudi Arabia.

Hamas has repeatedly declared that its goal is the destruction of Israel and elimination of Jews. It is intractable in its demands. It tore up the previous truce, declared it was over, and began shelling Israel. What was an indicated response? Hamas is true to its word.

Casualties are a result of war. War is hell. To distant observers the sight of casualties are far more upsetting than they are to those engaged in the conflict, who psychologically accommodate the process. The casualties that Hamas suffers are due to the choices of its population and their goals, which are not consonant with peace. The intransigence of Hamas and their determination to provoke and continue the conflict will result in casualties, which they then use to secure support. They manipulate others when their own machinations are the cause of their situation. If they opt to die, then that's a choice they have made because of their own meanness and intolerance of other peoples right to exist and survive. They are victims of their own malignance.

Holy Cow who is this Johnson?

Does he always post miles of bull shit and say nothing?

War is hell. To distant observers the sight of casualties are far more upsetting than they are to those engaged in the conflict, who psychologically accommodate the process.

~TJ Hooker

Bullshit.

The people who lose loved ones are less upset than the distant observer?

The "psychological accomodation" you speak of is more clearly defined as PTSD.

To the western observer the sight of casualties is usually "softened" or more properly censored.

It has been pretty much since Israels inception.

Holy Cow who is this Johnson?

Does he always post miles of bull shit and say nothing?

#238 | Posted by roman

Yup.

Pretty much.

Johnson is our resident racist (not the only one mind you).

Imagine if Archie Bunker swallowed a thesaurus.

That's our Johnson.

Better known as "Tiny Johnson" fer some reason Spud can never quite figure out.

Occasionally he can have some relevant insights into the world of high finance and on other topics but mostly he just likes to be wrong on stories involving race in excruciating detail.

In this case he's an apologist fer Israel who only sees them as victim and never as victimiser, always as defender and never as attacker.

Pretty much parroting the same BS that has surrounded this conflict in western-based media from the get-go.

Be Well.

To distant observers the sight of casualties are far more upsetting than they are to those engaged in the conflict, who psychologically accommodate the process.

What war were you in, and who was blown to pieces before your eyes, dick?

Holy Cow who is this Johnson?

Does he always post miles of bull shit and say nothing?

#238 | Posted by roman at 2008-12-30 11:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes, it does.

My favorite line from the evening, courtesy of "Johnson":

To distant observers the sight of casualties are far more upsetting than they are to those engaged in the conflict, who psychologically accommodate the process.

"who psychologically accommodate the process."

for idiots.(smirk) (tm)

My only other wish is that Kofi Anan and Jimmy Carter would go to Gaza to negotiate a settlement and that they would get caught in a crossfire.

#3 | Posted by fwthom at 2008-12-30 09:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

You actually wish an Ex-US President would be killed while trying to negotiate peace?

Speaks volumes about you.

& makes one wonder about that blackout in Hawaii just a wee bit with statements like wandering the blogshere...

blogsphere

Hey Israel put em' here:

Auschwitz-Birkenau Bełżec Chełmno Majdanek Sobibr Treblinka Bogdanovka Jasenovac Kaiserwald Maly Trostenets Mauthausen Sajmite Sachsenhausen Uckermark

and give em' this:

Zyklon B

I hope Israel blows the whole Palestinian area up, those losers have been shooting rockets at civilian targets for years, just to cause fear and terror, its about time Israel fought back, I hope they wipe them off the planet. Hamas are nothing but a bunch of beheading goons...

Go Israel!

I hope Israel kills all those filthy fucking animals. Arabs are the scum of the earth, like a fucking cancer.

"if somebody were sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, IM going to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect israel to do the same thing"

presidential candidate
barak obama in a town in israel

Americans did horribel things to Iraqis, but that does not make the American army or American in general evil or sadistic.

very comfortable viewpoint.

Maybe next time Gazans get to choose who is going to govern them, they'll pick a group of people who are interested in improving living conditions for Gazans.

Because Hamas' platform of "perpetually picking fights with a much more powerful entity while using civilians as human shields and spewing delusional nonsense" certainly isn't working out very well for them.

you're perfectly right sully @2.02, but enforcing an immediate blockade, starving people and openly declaring that their democratic choice of hamas must be reversed, for a chronically kleptocratic fatah, headed by abu mazen, does'nt really give the palestinians a chance to find out that extremism does'nt pay. it's all been stick and no carrot.
there's only one person that could have both credibility in gaza (ie with the militants) and win an election within the fatah structure. but he's rotting in an israeli jail right now-marwan bargouti....

An enforced blockade may be the most humane way to end the Arab aggressiveness. These half-measures designed to coddle a truculent population are ineffective. It's a war. Let there be a siege, and let it end with starvation or capitulation by the Arabs.

There is no basis for negotiation with them as they have declared their resolve and determination to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. What's to be negotiated? They regard concessions as weakness, and they use territory ceded to them for purposes of aggression rather than attempt to improve their situation.

The Arabs are choosing their own fate. They commenced the hostilities, and they are defiant and resist all attempts to end them with a promise that attacks on the Israelis will cease.

so johnson, israeli militarism has worked so well? you might want to read some franz fanon sometime....

That's funny, Yogurt, because the coverage I saw was missiles shot in from Palestine. Those sure are some big ass rocks and some damn fine slingshots they have.

For every one militant killed 2 are made. -Klifferd

I would just love to see the proof of that. Please, please show me the numbers somewhere. Anywhere!!

For every one militant killed 2 are made. -Klifferd

I would just love to see the proof of that. Please, please show me the numbers somewhere. Anywhere!!
-Everlong

Terrorism would be a thing of the past if the current strategies of killing off militants weren't so effective in radicalizing others.

I hope Israel kills all those filthy fucking animals. Arabs are the scum of the earth, like a fucking cancer.

#250 | Posted by cabo_vato at 2008-12-31 12:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

To distant observers the sight of casualties are far more upsetting than they are to those engaged in the conflict, who psychologically accommodate the process.

#237 | Posted by Johnson at 2008-12-30 11:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Happy New Year!