Have some money. Money for everyone, well, except for the taxpayers.

Go ahead, take all you can carry. We'll print more.

Don'r worry your pretty little heads about rules, regulations, laws, economics or even free-market principles, just take the money. take it. Take it. TAKE IT!!!

Idiots!

The average American has ZERO representation from their "elected" officials.

The average American has ZERO representation from their "elected" officials.
#3 | Posted by Sluggo

Doesn't seem to change the way we vote though.

If you thought taxation without representation was bad, taxation with representation is no better.

I don't know that this is going to work. Watching Fox a few weeks ago they were reading e-mails that went something like this:

"If the Big 3 get bailed out I will boycott their cars!"

Stay tuned folks, it's going to get interesting.

"Watching Fox a few weeks ago they were reading e-mails that went something like this:
"If the Big 3 get bailed out I will boycott their cars!"

YEAH!

And later that day the same idiot writes: "Buy American"!

Anyway, One has to wonder the mental capabilities of a person who writes (puts effort) a pseudo news outlet to threaten an entirely different and unrelated industry!

Yup, regular brainiacs these "foxed" people are!

I know a way to stop all the corruption in it's tracks but it will never happen because Americans are spoiled, stupid and lazy.

Stop spending money, stop taking loans, stop the engine of the economy. spend no extra money. buy no unnecessary products. buy american made ammunition.

within just a few months the whole false economic structure will collapse in on itself. millions will die. Then remove the federal reserve and the income tax system.

If you're not willing to do anything about it, STFU and bend over and take it like a man.

'A little revolution is a good thing, no?' Sean connery in hunt for Red October.

"If the Big 3 get bailed out I will boycott their cars!"

and then head over to Bank of America and make a deposit or a withdrawl.

Bush does the responsible thing and attempts to prevent a depression and he gets bashed???
When he does the right thing I acknowledge it, he did the right thing this time.
Concerns about the unfairness of the bailout are legitimate but unfortunately the possibility of a depression is too great for the president to make his decision based on that.
I honestly believe most people are unaware of the real possibility of a real depression and what the consequences of that are. I don't see how you can oppose this attempt to prevent it if you understand how much our lives would change were such a depression to happen.

Bush at least gave them loans out of money already allocated to big business.

He did do the right thing--I suppose. For the companies to fail--not the option for sure.

I don't know how someone gets an "organized bankruptcy"?

And after all the ballywho--what did Ford say?

No Thanks.

So what is that all about? They were there on the hill begging away to congress for no strings attached monies.

Then when the strings are there--they pass?

Begs to question--how mush are these big 3 really really hurting?

Begs to question--how mush are these big 3 really really hurting?

#10 | Posted by MURPHY

Ford never has asked for money. when they thought the money was free, of course they stood in line.

I heard an interview with the Ford CEO a few months ago and he said they had enough cash on hand to last until next summer with no changes. (that's when i bought Ford stock at $1.25).

I hope folks remember that ford never was a part of this fiasco when it comes time to buy another car.

GM and Chrysler really and truly are hurting. I still don't understand, outside physcological considerations, how it is unacceptable for them to fail. That's like putting make-up on to cover a black eye, the black eye is still there, it's just hidden from view.

#8 | Posted by Lipzoidial

Sounds taken straight out of The Book of the Subgenius. You're freaking me out a little today.

"GM and Chrysler really and truly are hurting. I still don't understand, outside physcological considerations, how it is unacceptable for them to fail."

What don't you understand about adding 3 million to the roles of the unemployed???
You can't just pretend that adding so many unemployed wouldn't have huge consequences for all of us.
Maybe you can, I can't and more importantly Bush couldn't.

also heard report that UAW said in response to bush's offer of limited bankruptcy

they wanted no part of that

so imagine that you owe someone a thousand bucks and they want their money and you tell them uh ...well no I dont want any part of that. I want to give you whatever I feel like..
I dont think so..........

"so imagine that you owe someone a thousand bucks and they want their money and you tell them uh ...well no I dont want any part of that."

You've got it backwards.

Management signed a contract promising certain wages and benefits for certain duties. The workers fulfilled their side of the bargain. Now the owners want to welsh. It's management who now wants to "give whatever (they) feel like".

With Congress spending so much money that a lot of taxpayers do not want them to spend, what do the voters plan to do about it?

Anything?

Joe.....has long has congress been living in the white house?

LM

that would be "how long has....."

LM

My hat's off to Ford.

Who knew when McCain was going on about that Socialist he was talking about Bush. Here I was all upset because I thought he was talking about Obama. That being said the bailout was a forgone conclusion, it had to happen. This country cannot stand another couple of million unemployed (it would be that many with the big 3, the suppliers, and the businesses that rely on that $) and no matter how you slice it keeping those jobs and paying for a bailout is cheaper than paying for a year of all those unemployment claims. Either way the taxpayer would have to pay. I think if you actually do the math we got off light. $550 - biweekly x 2 a month x 12 month x est. 3,000,000 unemployed = 39,600,000,000

All of a sudden 17.2 Bil seems like a bargain.

Why don't they just force these three pathetic companies to merge. Maybe all three of them put together can design and manufacture a car that doesn't suck.

peanuts compared to the high finance crime unfolding before our very eyes.

Libmon-I wouldn't bother dude-they're doin' what they always accuse us of-they blame Libs no mater what the problem is.

Hell-bushie could rape, kill, BBQ, and eat a newborn baby on the White House lawn-other than a few Jeebus freaks crying about an Aborted baby-they'd still blame Libs for it.

I get that they can't let them fail and have every employee out of work, every factory shut down, and the towns built around them implode, but then again just handing them billions of dollars without getting the resignations of the executives and management and drastic wage cuts by all employees, and not completely changing their business plan seems just as stupid to me.

Why don't they just force these three pathetic companies to merge. Maybe all three of them put together can design and manufacture a car that doesn't suck.

#21 | Posted by panchovilla

Cause they'd fuckup the Retards at Autozone.

The deal would extend $13.4 billion in loans to General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC in December and January, with another $4 billion likely available in February. It also would provide the government with non-voting warrants, although the exact amount was unclear immediately.

Bush does the responsible thing and attempts to prevent a depression and he gets bashed???
ROTFLMAO....

In order to "save money", GM and Chrysler close the plants an extra week on both ends of a previously scheduled shutdown. But UAW members get 90% of their wages while the plants are closed. If you wonder why they are going belly up....

Bush takes money from taxpayers, many who cannot afford health insurance, many who are losing their houses, and gives it to the UAW members who get paid for not working.

Nice plan.

"and drastic wage cuts by all employees"

#24 | Posted by GreenDad

You know if they don't have money, they can't buy anything...

"Why don't they just force these three pathetic companies to merge. Maybe all three of them put together can design and manufacture a car that doesn't suck."

Actually the exact opposite should be done but not just with auto makers, even more importantly with the banking industry, telecommunications, MEDIA, ETC. Notice we have the problems we do after eight years of a presidency that refused to enforce anti-trust laws and allowed consolidation and the idea of "too big to fail."

"You know if they don't have money, they can't buy anything...

#28 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE "

Bailout money lasts a lot longer if everyone takes a paycut. Not saying they have to stay low, but until they improve their business and stabalize, they should all get less pay. Especially if they're begging for taxdollars.

I think if you actually do the math we got off light. $550 - biweekly x 2 a month x 12 month x est. 3,000,000 unemployed = 39,600,000,000
that is the idiot math used by UAW workers.

You assume all employees would be fired in chapter 11, when all that would happen is renegotiations with UAW and restructing of debt.

You also assume if the companies just went away the market share currently supplied by GM and Chrysler just goes away. The market share would go to those auto makers still in business which would cause them to increase productivity and hire, probably retooling the existing facilities used by the former companies. Parts suppliers would build different parts and the after market suppliers would increase productivity....

Unless the companies debt is reorganized and the labor costs are brought into line with other US auto factories, Bush simply delayed the filing to chapter 11.

Just to prove Danni is an idiot, I wanted to list a few large mergers from the 90's that will shoot down here argument about M&A only happening under Bush

1999 Pfizer Warner-Lambert
1998 Exxon Mobil
1999 Citicorp Travelers
1999 SBC Communications Ameritech
1998 Bell GTE
1998 BP amoco Amoco
1999 Qwest Communications US West
1997 World Comm MCI
2000 Glaxo Wellcome Smithkline Beecham
2000 AOL Time Warner

Fail now, fail later.

Key word is fail.

The Feds can pump $100 billion into the auto companies. Won't matter if product is not being sold.

The sales numbers are down hugely across the board for automakers worldwide. Even Mighty Toyota is being shaken.

I'll repeat: all of the bailouts won't matter if product is not being sold.

This Christmas season is the lull, of sorts, before the storm. 2009 is going to be a most interesting year indeed.

TIMBICILE I never claimed it only happened under Bush. All of the last few presidents have allowed way too much consolidation.....including Clinton.

"Unless the companies debt is reorganized and the labor costs are brought into line with other US auto factories, Bush simply delayed the filing to chapter 11."

And if that is the final outcome at least we should try to put it off until the current economic crisis is over. Until housing markets stop decreasing.
It would catastrophic though to allow the auto makers to go under even as most other segments of the economy are also doing so poorly.
Hopefully though, with changes in economic policies to help wages RISE the market for autos will come back and the companies can survive and prosper.

Actually the exact opposite should be done but not just with auto makers, even more importantly with the banking industry, telecommunications, MEDIA, ETC. Notice we have the problems we do after eight years of a presidency that refused to enforce anti-trust laws and allowed consolidation and the idea of "too big to fail."

Sorry Danni but you certainly implied it was all Bush's fault. I love peasants like you. I was always amused to sit up on the fence and watch the peasants roll around with the pigs in the shit. Have fun on the bread line

"Sorry Danni but you certainly implied it was all Bush's fault."

WTF? Danni has written many times about spreading the blame among Bush and many others, including Gramm, Bernanke, and especially Greenspan.

TIMBICILE speaks of peasants as if it would be an insult, personally I always identified with the peasants, you know, the workers who create the wealth instead of the aristocrats who just steal the wealth.

Danni -

Between delivering the company mail, fetching coffee and Danish for the secretarial pool, and sucking up to the guys and gals who wear suits instead of the uniform he's required to wrestle himself into each day, TIMBICILE lives in a fantasy world of such singular and intricate construction that even his therapist sometimes wonders just what its relationship might be to the reality-based world.

"I always identified with the peasants..."

#37 | Posted by danni

"Identifying" with the peasants and being a peasant are worlds apart.

Unless you are a peasant (or have been), you will never know what it is like to be a peasant.

I don't think your average peasant owns a Mini.

"Unless you are a peasant (or have been), you will never know what it is like to be a peasant."

If some of the dire predictions about the economy I may get to experience being a peasant.
BTW, I lived pretty poor for an awful lot of years when the kids were young. Try paying for three day care bills on one pay check. But, I was never poor enough to get welfare or anything, well I don't think I did because I never applied.

Hopefully though, with changes in economic policies to help wages RISE the market for autos will come back and the companies can survive and prosper.

#34 | Posted by danni

I don't disagree with this except for one thing.

If toyota can sell 3 cars with a profit margin of 5%, but GM and can only get 4.9% profit margin on 3 cars, then it will show up on the balance sheet sooner or later.

So the 'incorrect' business practices of the past says that you jack up the price across the board (because you expect your monopoly to be preserved).

Pretty soon, your low-level priced car costs the same as toyotas mid-level priced car and that puts GM at a serious disadvantage. So what does the disingenuous do, you guessed it, raised the price again. It only postpones the inevitable.

There is a certain size dependable market for cars in the US. IF GM/Chrysler goes belly up, someone will step in to fill that void.

The skilled autoworker jobs, that exist now, will not vanish into thin air, because the new automakers will need skilled people to build their cars. Granted, they will be getting paid by Hyundai instead of GM. And they may even have to be a good worker to keep their job.

3 million jobs are not dissapearing, they are just relocating to warmer climates.

"3 million jobs are not dissapearing, they are just relocating to warmer climates."

Actually, if the big three were to go bankrupt and throw 3 million out of work the depression which would likely result would also bring down the market for the other car manufacturers too. Less money paid in wages into the economy is less money available to buy products.

Until housing markets stop decreasing.

Why do you want to prevent affordable housing Danni?

3 million jobs are not dissapearing, they are just relocating to warmer climates."

Actually, if the big three were to go bankrupt and throw 3 million out of work the depression which would likely result would also bring down the market for the other car manufacturers too. Less money paid in wages into the economy is less money available to buy products.

Can't we just give Michigan to Canada? Or sell it to the chinese? Woody Hayes would be rolling over in his grave knowing that state was given a dime. After all "There ain't nothing good from the whole State of Michigan, I'm from Ohio"

My hat's off to Ford.

#19 | Posted by MSgt at 2008-12-19 01:48 PM

Mine's off to Nissan, they make a hell of a truck.

Fuck the "Not So Big Three".

My hat's off to Ford.

#19 | Posted by MSgt at 2008-12-19 01:48 PM

Mine's off to Nissan, they make a hell of a truck.

Mine's off to GM. My Silverados have been great to me.

"Why do you want to prevent affordable housing Danni?"

I don't, we should build some. I do want the average AMerican family to stop losing thousands monthly though, don't you???
You aren't too stupid to realize that falling home values are the cause of most of the nation's financial woes....right???

My hat's off to Ford.

95 F-150. Nothing but tires and brakes. V-6 easy on the tranny. Going on 150,000. Well over 200 camping trips.

Danni -

Between delivering the company mail, fetching coffee and Danish for the secretarial pool, and sucking up to the guys and gals who wear suits instead of the uniform he's required to wrestle himself into each day, TIMBICILE lives in a fantasy world of such singular and intricate construction that even his therapist sometimes wonders just what its relationship might be to the reality-based world.

I love fools like you. I wouldn't even deliver mail when I was an intern. Son no one in finace has worn suits since the 90's. then again you would have to have a real job to know that. Go back to your fantasy world where you play vet and Danni is the pig in shit that you rescue.

TIMBICILE speaks of peasants as if it would be an insult, personally I always identified with the peasants, you know, the workers who create the wealth instead of the aristocrats who just steal the wealth.

Sorry but the uneducated day laborers that call themselves union members do not create wealth. they will never know what its like to raise capital, design, engineer, and market a product. They are just the slobs who work on the assembly line. So easy a caveman can do it

I have a lincoln and a gmc trailblazer. both of them are very good cars. i have no complants with gm or the unions, as long as they do what they are supposed to do. build a good car at a good price.

they were both expensive when i bought them and now, i can add my share of the bailout to those prices and re-compute and the cars/values are not as good now as they were before.

My next car will either be a toyota or a mercedes, or whoever builds a decent electric car.

"Sorry but the uneducated day laborers that call themselves union members do not create wealth."

Sorry to break it to you but yes when you manufacture goods you create wealth. When you raise capital or market a product you don't.
You're welcome.

"they will never know what its like to raise capital, design, engineer, and market a product"

and that is something they will always have in common with Timbicile.

"Son no one in finace has worn suits since the 90's."

Apparently, timbicile equates his working the H&R Block cubicle in Wal-Mart with working in "finace".

Hans

"no one in finace has worn suits since the 90's"

I voted for Bush and it is sad to see that he has become more a left wing socialist than any Democrat in Congress or any president in history. He is just giving away hundreds of billions left and right to corporations in the kind of corporate welfare never imagined. The taxpayers are getting screwed.

This $17 billion is going right down the toilet. Until Detroit deals with the unions and retirees in terms of the billions in overly high wages and health benefits all that is being done is forestalling the inevitable by a few months.

If the White House is going to just have money printed at least let every homeowner get a bailout instead of bad management getting bailed out time and time again. I am furious with Bush and the Congress.

I'd rather give bailout money to American employers and workers in one of our most important industries than the almost trillion dollars (with no questions asked) already handed out to the crooks on Wall Street.

Let them go bankrupt!!!!! Cut the unions in half!!!

The bailout is ridiculous. They will be back for more money in March. "If we are forced to pay back these loans, the auto industry will fail, millions of jobs will be lost, and the economy will enter a depression." You will hear this in March.

Auto workers are way overpaid for the job they do. In cities other than Detroit, people with a high school education are lucky to get a job for $8.00 an hour at McDonalds. These clowns get $56 an hour. They should be replaced with robots. At least robots don't get pension plans.

"Actually, if the big three were to go bankrupt and throw 3 million out of work the depression which would likely result would also bring down the market for the other car manufacturers too. Less money paid in wages into the economy is less money available to buy products."

Negative. One of the things that has killed the US auto industry's ability to pay wages to unskilled labor at far above market rate is competition. The more competitive a market, the lower the cost to the consumer. It is amazing that the unions were able to stifle competition for as long as they have, but it's ultimately an unsustainable proposition since it results in labor costs that are about 60% higher than those for the foreign manufacturers. In any case, the argument that the money would for some reason be out of circulation is incorrect. It would be kept in the hands of consumers, (who would pay less for their vehicles) where it would be either spent on goods or utilized as capital.

I heard that the bailout included requirements on labor costs; that CEOs were no longer allowed perks such as private jets, while UAW members would have to accept wages that were more in line with industry standards. I don't know how that will work if the big three have already made commitments to providing union benefits. The NRWC recently suggested that unions may have spent up to a billion dollars supporting the Obama faction, and with that kind of money and political support, I'd sooner expect to see the taxpayers providing full spectrum pay and bennies to the UAW members than I would see them take a cut in remuneration. I just don't think there's a chance in hell that would ever happen.

Last thing. Chrysler is owned primarily by Cerebrus capital management, which has more than $100 billion in assets. What the government gave them was free money that they didn't need. GM was, in all honesty, the only firm that may have been in a death spiral. In any case, bankruptcy would have done little more than force them to regain control of a business model that was no longer viable. The government just told them (and the rest of the business community) that responsibility is not really important; that the government can always bail them out when they get in trouble.

The last time I was STUPID enough to buy a GM piece of shit was 1983. It ran trouble-free for 8000 miles then started pinging and NEVER stopped. Mr. Goodwrench could not fix it, ever. His advice, take it across the street and trade it in on a Nissan Maxima. I did and all my Nissan and Toyota vehicles since have run TROUBLE-FREE for approaching 200,000 miles. I had a Nissan truck for 20 years and now have a toyota truck (30mpg highway) with 196,000 miles and everything works great. Jeeze, lets reward mediocrity, no, incompetence. I particularly like my tax money going to pay the $17 million annual UAW Viagra bill. Nothing like screwing the public with an erection paid for by their own tax money....
Ever notice all those vehicles with a burned out light coming at you? Ever notice they are ALL GM's, putting the cheapest crap they can find in their cars? Yah, sure, buy another shitbox from JM--Junker Motors.

What don't you understand about adding 3 million to the roles of the unemployed???

I think the real question here is what can't you understand about the fact that if you can't run a company profitably and correctly, then you SHOULD fail?? The basic facts are, if you can not put out a product that people will buy and that can make money for your company then you SHOULD NOT be in business.

Just because some people still think that horses should be the main vehicle for people to move from one place to another does not mean that we should be looking to give them billions of dollars because no one is buying horses, now does it??

What a stupid rationalization for giving away money to a company that clearly no longer has the relevance to still be in operation. MORON, take your union ass home and starve.... or get a real job with a company that can turn a profit.