It does everyone good to feel a financial squeeze at one time or another in their lifetime. Makes them appreciate more the times when they are fortunate enough not to have to struggle to pay the bills and learn not to take everything in life for granted.

Agreed CC. It certainly seems to bring family and friends closer together.

Gee, CC, by that logic all men should marry you once in order to find out what true suffering is and count their lucky stars after divorcing you.

It does everyone good to feel a financial squeeze at one time or another in their lifetime.

#1 | Posted by CalifChris

Does this mean you've finally found a silver lining in the George W Bush Presidency CC?

You're really grabbing at straws there with that comment, aren't ya, Gimme. lol

CC,
Have you ever been broke and homeless,and had to sleep in your car?
Poverty doesn't bring families closer together. In most cases it tears them a part.

There is no reason except greed that we are going through this mess. The only ones to blame are the bankers period.

I know I have done my best to keep my personal balance sheet within my means. It was the banks led by the Fed that did this. They are stealing my and your money and they want our land next.

We should never have to learn about a depression that was foisted upon us. We are being turned into serfs.

PROLIX247

I know I have done my best to keep my personal balance sheet within my means. It was the banks led by the Fed that did this. They are stealing my and your money and they want our land next. We should never have to learn about a depression that was foisted upon us. We are being turned into serfs.

I agree with you there. You always here in the media -- and even from some Bush-defenders on here -- that we Americans are selfish, greedy, and are always buying needless luxury items we don't need, blah blah blah. What crap!

I never spent needlessly just to buy and I always made sure my bills were paid first before I bought extras.

Notice that the Wall Street crooks who have cost so many their pensions, their 401ks, etc. have all now been made whole again with more than a trillion of OUR tax dollars.

Those brokers and bankers aren't hurting after Bush, Bernanke, and Paulson bailed them out but the average guy who trusted them with their hard earned money and never figured on those crooks getting away with their credit default swaps, subprime mortgage con game, etc, are the ones to pay the price.

Religious guilt, media conditioning, and entertainment keep the masses passive, complacent, and apathetic while they are fleeced.

Gee, CC, by that logic all men should marry you once in order to find out what true suffering is and count their lucky stars after divorcing you.

#3 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2008-12-16 06:08 PM

I'm not pro-poverty, you idiot.

My first post was referring to the paralegal mentioned in the article who couldn't handle it when he could no longer afford to buy an expensive tie so he went out and stole one instead.

THAT's what I meant by people needing to learn to adjust if they're thrown in different financial circumstances.

ps -- YOU will never have to worry about having to "count your lucky stars" -- even if you were the last guy on earth. lol

my #8

here = hear

Gee, CC, by that logic all men should marry you once in order to find out what true suffering is and count their lucky stars after divorcing you.

#3 | Posted by LetUsPrey

You should only be that lucky. She has more heart than you were born with, TinMan.

Economic Downturn Spurs "Survival" Mode For Some In U.S.

Whatever happened to Ray?

I may be too much of a pollyanna here, but when I'm forced to cut expenses because of money problems, I sometimes feel relief at not buying so much damn stuff all the time. The urge to consume! consume! consume! has always seemed insane to me, in spite of the fact that I feel it often. I'm pretty sure if I don't get an Amazon Kindle for Christmas my life has no meaning.

Seems to me that the financial institutions we just bailed out could use some of the lessons taught by the school of hard knocks but apparently it is only good for middle class and poor folks. I hope we do learn the lesson though and never, ever elect another Republican President or Congressional majority. Spin it all you want, blame Dodd or Frank but the people KNOW it was Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and....you can't leave out.....GREENFUCKINGSPAN! Hang him high.

Poverty doesn't bring families closer together. In most cases it tears them a part.
#6 | Posted by JeffnDenmark

Jeff, I doubt CaliChris meant object poverty or homelessness with her statement. What I gathered from her post was that cutting back and realizing what "essentials" are versus the other fluff and wants can be good for a person. Even in the situation in the article, the guy stole an expensive tie, not food for his family - I doubt even he was in "survival mode". No one wants to see starvation, etc. but leaner times can help us appreciate the good times.

I just heard about the Obesity Tax in NY that Patterson wants. Some talking head said pop (soda) would go from $1 a can to $1.20 or $1.25 because of the tax.
OK, I don't drink pop, and I fucking hate fat people, but this is excessive to say the least.
What pisses me off the most is that beer and wine will also be getting hit harder by taxes. As if NY isn't already gouging us there!

Maybe the price tags should be in braille so that stupid mother fucker would know that things are already too expensive here.

I don't care if this was the wrong thread.

CC: Your statement about it being good for every family to experience an economic squeeze at one time or another is one of the stupider statements you have posted. Economic stress rips families apart. Often leads to physical abuse, infidelity and substance abuse. In fact, economic stress is the number one source of friction and argument in families, - above even infidelity. Don't mistake movies like Cinderella Man for reality.

What's being overlooked here is that encouraging people to live beyond their means is an industry - a very large and profitable one. From thrusting credit cards at college students to "teaser" rates for mortgages, Corporate America has a big share in the responsibility for the mess many people are in.

Before you righties get all wound up and start screaming that it's "all a matter of individual responsibility," I remind you that banks now increase credit card rates at will, that mortgages are written so that only a trained professional can interpret them, and that our financial system has been plundered under circumstances over which the average American has no control.

It is true - absolutely true - that many, many people live beyond their means, but it is also true that the system is presently so rigged in favor of Big Business that America's middle class doesn't have a ghost of a chance. A strong and prosperous middle class (meaning one with stable jobs, savings and home equity) is the financial backbone of any nation. Our corporations have found it in their own interest to destroy that stability in the name of short-term, usurious profit. I'm hoping that an Obama administration can have some impact on what has been going on for far too long. Some high-profile imprisonments would be very helpful, as would more regulation of our financial system.

Economic stress rips families apart.
#18 | Posted by moder8

Deciding to steal an expensive tie versus paying for it hardly constitutes "economic stress". If this guy had troubles buying food or paying rent, I'd agree with you that he and his family might have problems. But in this case at least, there is no indication that he's facing "economic stress" any more than I am, simply because I also can't afford $100 ties.

The article says it best: "Buying and consuming have become part of the national culture, with many people using what is in their shopping bags to express their own identity..."

If you have to rely on spending large quantities of cash to define yourself, maybe the leaner times can help you find yourself and is therefore a benefit to you in the long run.

"It does everyone good to feel a financial squeeze at one time or another in their lifetime. "

I used to feel the financial squeeze.

Then I divorced her.

wow moder8.......you must be one of those people surveyed where the results were that people more to the left are not only unhappy but only happy when others are unhappy.........

come on bud....get your chin up....

chris has a point but its not everyone who can look poverty in the face and tell themselves that it wont beat them.....

and the irony....for years we have been told that we are spending too much and we should save more money...and just this weekend on one of the cable money shows a guy was telling me that I should go and spend as much money as I can get my hands on..
my exwife would have loved to have heard that.

There is a certain power in going into a store, looking around for a while, and then leaving without buying anything.

"and the irony....for years we have been told that we are spending too much and we should save more money..."

Yeah, like right after 9-11 when the president told Americans what they could do to help.....just go shopping.

Why should they, the federal government doesn't

Whatever happened to Ray?

#13 | Posted by Zap

I don't think he's even updated his own website since September.

Ray come back.

Chris I can't let you get lambasted or beat up anymore without jumpin in for an ass-whoopin too.

The poverty issue freaks out the masses, say the experts, because the masses are spoiled little twits.

I grew up poor, my whole family and extended family were poor. I'm talkin 2 room house, bordering forest/jungle poor. And no you twits and idiots it didn't make my family weaker, broken, sad nor criminal. That is what you see because that is what you see possible in YOUR life. What YOU are capable of accomplishing if you were poor. When you grow up that way, Ipods are way down on the priority list. Cable and all the other BS you MUST have to survive just aren't that important.

When you get a little older, you actually get to look back and appreciate where you are in life, what you have accomplished and how petty keeping up with the Jones' is.

Oh, how does the story end? Many of my cousins have 2 yr degrees, a couple their B.S and a few their Masters. But I could care less what the boys at work drive in with. And as far as economic future I say bring it on while you say where's my gun and a divorce lawyer. Twits

I hope that takes some heat off ya Chris, Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas fella.

I hope that takes some heat off ya Chris, Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas fella.

#28 | Posted by observer22

Obviously not THAT observant. LOL!

I understand trying to have a more positive outlook regarding the economic disaster but sorry, I do not want to ever be poor again. Been there, done that.
I can't think of one single thing I liked about it.
That said, Me and my family will endure whatever comes our way and make the best of it. Done it before, we'll do it again. But we will remember who caused it too and so should everyone else.

There is no reason except greed that we are going through this mess. The only ones to blame are the bankers period.

You are right about that. It is greed. But only the bankers to blame? Are you saying the greed of of consumers when they buy homes beyond their means and run their credit cards to the hilt have nothing to do with it?

How can you blame the bankers? Are the grocery stores to blame for fat people, too?

Experts: Living Within Your Means Freaks People Out

Maybe some people. For me it has always been the opposite. Debt has always freaked me out. With the exception of mortgages, only once in my life have I borrowed money to buy something. That was a new car. Every car, piece of furniture, etc. that I owned, I saved for. My reasoning was, why pay four years for something when I can save for four years and get it interest free?

At first this caused some friction in our marriage, but after a couple of years my wife bought on to the concept and heartily supported it. She was very glad during bad financial times -- especially after I got laid off. Having no debt made the rough times easier than it was for others in the same situation.

It does everyone good to feel a financial squeeze at one time or another in their lifetime--per CC

Actually the secret is to live within your means all the time-- so when something comes along--you and yours are not getting the financial squeeze.

Did anyone see all those rich people appear after the gas prices dropped from $5 buck or so a gallon?

I mean when the gas price went up--we were going to see people in the streets and bus rides increased and people lose their jobs or quit their jobs.

No one could afford an extra $50-$100 for gas!

So when the gas price went down--where were all the rich people?

I'm sure Murphy had a point with that post but I can't seem to figure out what it was.

I hope that takes some heat off ya Chris, Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas fella.

#28 | Posted by observer22

Observer22, I couldn't agree more. I was also raised poor. I love material shit, but to me it's just that, material shit.

I now work and live in a world where not having the latest and best gadgets are grounds for suicide.

But to me, it's still just material shit.

The funny thing is that the folks that were raised poor will have less problem with an economic down-turn than people that were not. Because we know how to deal with it.

On another matter, if you will use the name observer, you should have noticed by now that CC is a girl. A very hot 22 yr old surgically enhanced Latino nymphomaniac girl. Oh, wait, that was my dream girl, not CC.

dan is running true to form.

"I never spent needlessly just to buy and I always made sure my bills were paid first before I bought extras."

Same here, in fact, I went the other way and paid down my mortgage, knocking about 13 years off the payment. And what will I get for my restraint?

The joyous opportunity to pay for others' lies and mistakes.

Same here, in fact, I went the other way and paid down my mortgage, knocking about 13 years off the payment. And what will I get for my restraint?

The joyous opportunity to pay for others' lies and mistakes.

#37 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-12-17 12:57 PM | Reply

I know life isn't fair, and I'm sure there are 1,000 other ways we're currently being fucked over, but for some reason the mortgages really piss me the fuck off.

I always over-pay my mortgage for the same reason as you. I was also told I could have bought a much more expensive house, but knew it was too good to be true. Now for being prudent and using some common sense I get rewarded by helping out the cocksucker that threw caution and common sense to the wind.

"Are you saying the greed of of consumers when they buy homes beyond their means and run their credit cards to the hilt have nothing to do with it? How can you blame the bankers?"

While I certainly don't believe the over-borrowers are blameless, the fact remains one set of the signatures on the mortgage---the set from the folks who are supposed to assess the risk and who reap the rewards---belongs to folks who's job it is to do it right, folks who presumably graduated from business school where they were taught the dangers of underestimating risk, as well as leveraging bad debts against more bad debts.

Buyers come in all stripes, but the lenders are supposed to properly assess the assumed risk. THAT'S THEIR JOB.

"Experts: Living Within Your Means Freaks People Out"

Many of my contemporaries fit into this category, a vast majority identifying themselves as "conservative". They are typical, they drive obnoxious vehicles that every two years they replaced (at a loss), live in areas selected for its prestige instead of affordability, have little to no savings and presented themselves without a thread of Humility.

In other words they are arrogant self absorbed fools without an inclining of what "conservative" means historically.

And out of all the people I know across this country --- they are the ones with the most to fear because without loans, their Contrived Fake Plastic Lifestyle is no longer sustainable!

101,

My dad used to rail against that all the time. They scrimped and saved for the 4 kids' educations (we went without A LOT), and when it came time for financial aid, we got less---because we had some money saved! While the neighbors across the street---same income, but a new fur or boat every year---got a lot of aid, because they didn't have any money saved!

And now it's happening again. It almost makes me want to go delinquent on my mortgage, just to get a preferred deal.

Of all the people out there who think their limited experience in life generalizes to the community at large, you have to be the dumbest.

Redneckville, I mean.

I have been living within my means for about 8 years now after taking out an equity line to pay off my creditcards. For the last 8 years all I have had is one debt card and it works, of course my company pays for my gas so that is a big help right now.

I always over-pay my mortgage for the same reason as you. I was also told I could have bought a much more expensive house, but knew it was too good to be true. Now for being prudent and using some common sense I get rewarded by helping out the cocksucker that threw caution and common sense to the wind.

I do the sameand couldn't agree more. I live in a modest 1600 ft^2 home that I bought for $105k four years ago. I could afford a $500k McMansion, but why? Who would I be impressing, and more imporantliy, why would I be trying to impress them?

But as was pointed out, looks like people like us will be paying for those idiots who never lived in their means.

"Of all the people out there who think their limited experience in life generalizes to the community at large, you have to be the dumbest."
#42 | Posted by JOE at 2008-12-17 01:08 PM

YEAH!

But im Debt Free, own several homes outright and I have a Savings!

How about you?

I always over-pay my mortgage for the same reason as you.

I don't overpay mine, but I do pay part of it every two weeks instead of once a month because 52 weeks equals 26 payments which means 13 months paid in 12 months. They said I will have mine paid off 8 years early and save about 45,000 in interest.

But im Debt Free, own several homes outright and I have a Savings!

How about you?

Same, but two homes, not several. But one is paid off so only one mortgage.

A note to pre-payers:

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not.

It really depends on several factors:

1) What percentage your mortgage is, versus what you can invest for. If you have a 5% mortgage, but you can invest at 4.5%, the difference is minimal, and you're giving yourself room to invest later on at a higher fixed rate than the repayment rate. That's called arbitrage, and if you're in a situation like that, the higher the balance on the mortgage, the better. (The mortgage subtracts from taxable income at roughly the same rate as interest adds, so it's a wash, and the investment vs. payout numbers can be compared without adjustments.)

2) Whether or not the mortgage interest kicks you over the standard deduction threshold. For some folks, this makes other things deductible (Employee Business expenses, for example) which might not be if you didn't beat the standard deduction. Conversely, paying it off might offer better savings when coupled with the standard deduction if it puts you far enough below the threshold; everyone's case is unique.

YEAH! But im Debt Free, own several homes outright and I have a Savings! How about you?

1. That has nothing to do with whether you are stupid for thinking your fake or exaggerated experiences with conservatives generalize to the population at large;

2. You're probably three times my age, I'd hope you'd be more financially stable.

But Joe is right, redneckneckshill.

BTW, don't you remember the a couple of threads recently where the democrats where pissed off because there was a move to disenfranchise people who lived in foreclosed homes? Why was that if, as you say: And out of all the people I know across this country --- they [republicans] are the ones with the most to fear because without loans, their Contrived Fake Plastic Lifestyle is no longer sustainable! Did the Democrats want the republicans to get more votes? I think it is because the democrats are more likely to fit the lifestyle you describe than republicans.

As usual, you are a shill. That's why no on believes a word you say.

"How can you blame the bankers? Are the grocery stores to blame for fat people, too?"

If you can find a way to sue them for it sure.

"That's why no on believes a word you say."

Riiight.
I think the reality of today indicates that Redneckville has a pretty good grasp of reality.
Definitely one of the better posters here and hated by the righties because of it.

"You're probably three times my age"

Im 42.

are you 14?

"Im 42."

Bullshit. Although even at that age, comparing your debt and property ownership to someone in their mid-twenties is pretty desperate.

I think the reality of today indicates that Redneckville has a pretty good grasp of reality

LOL, Danny. If he has such a good graps of reality, maybe you can answer my question above. He won't.

He claims it is the republians who live the borrowing lifestyle and will most be hurt in the financial crisis. If this is the case, why were the democrats so desperate to make sure people who lived in foreclosed homes were able to vote? Were they looking out for those over-extended republcians that redneckshill describes?

How sweet of them. *snark*

"Definitely one of the better posters here"

That might be the most outrageous statement of all time. The guy is a fucking freak.

YEAH!

I think the reality of today indicates that Redneckville has a pretty good grasp of reality

That's so funny I have to print it again and probably take it over to the 'best of' thread that's going on. "Best support of someone just because he's on my side, regardless how stupid he is" award.

""Best support of someone just because he's on my side, regardless how stupid he is" award."

Sorry...BL2 and Tom Delay have a lock on that one.

While I certainly don't believe the over-borrowers are blameless, the fact remains one set of the signatures on the mortgage---the set from the folks who are supposed to assess the risk and who reap the rewards---belongs to folks who's job it is to do it right, folks who presumably graduated from business school where they were taught the dangers of underestimating risk, as well as leveraging bad debts against more bad debts.

Buyers come in all stripes, but the lenders are supposed to properly assess the assumed risk. THAT'S THEIR JOB.

#39 | Posted by Danforth

Except they did assess the risk. There was none. they could sell the loans to Freddie and Fannie, who were buying up everything in site. They knew they could do it because they had political cover from Congress pushing for "Affordable Housing" so they could say they were for the poor and minorities. So we are back at two sets of people. 1 People too stupid to know what they were signing or what they could afford. 2 Politicians that pushed the Fannie and Freddie to do stupid things for political reasons. Then claimed everyone that warned of the dangers were racist and just did not want minorities to have a house.

"Except they did assess the risk."

What a pile of shit.

Who forced lenders into 125% LTVs? Who pointed a gun to their head and made them offer low-interest teaser rates? Or no-money-down loans? Or liar's loans? And then who forced them to repackage the loans, get them re-rated (fraud galore), and resell them? Lehman was mortgaged at 100-1; which do you think was the real problem...the "1", or the "100"?

Again, one set of signatures on the mortgage was from a group of people who supposedly knew better. Government's mistake was allowing these companies to get too large to fail, not regulating them enough, and allowing them to eschew everything they had learned in B-School and pretend none of the laws of economic gravity applied to them.

As long as our public schools do more in the way of do-gooder, feel-good curriculumn while ignorning the building blocks of the 3 r's while continuing to turn out kids who can't balance a check book, things won't get better. I'm not saying they aren't good programs but more social than academic I'm saying that we need to concentrate more on math and basic accounting, interest, and the basics that you need to function as to finances in your life. Before anyone goes & starts bashing one party or another about education, keep in mind many parents aren't setting the good example at home by running up credit cards for things they don't need and generally being financially irresponsible. These patterns are being set in the home.

"No honey, I'm sorry, I know your friends have a $200 cell phone and pay a $100 bill each month but we can't because we're broke and that isn't a necessity. The good news is, now you'll have plenty of time to bring up that F in math"

That would be a start. The ability to say NO to yourself & to the kids.

curriculumn=curriculum

Maybe English too, & keybording also it would seem.

:)

Sorry...BL2 and Tom Delay have a lock on that one.

I don't know. To claim that redneckshill has a good grasp on reality is pretty hard to beat.

That would be a start. The ability to say NO to yourself & to the kids.

#62 | Posted by HATEBIGGOV

That's a big 10-4.

"He claims it is the republians who live the borrowing lifestyle".

I present exhibit A: The Bush Administration and its rubber Stamps!

What exactly are you denying, goat? That a) Bush isn't a Republican and b) him and his republican rubber stamps didn't "Borrow" incredible amounts to finance their objectives?

Remember one of bushs First acts as president? It was called Bush's Homeowner Initiative

Housing: Help low-income purchasers, and housing developers
Bush's main proposals on housing:
Creation of an "American Dream Downpayment Fund" to allow low-income families to use HUD rental vouchers to make a down payment on a home. Bush says this could help as many as 650,000 families become homeowners.
A tax break aimed at real estate investors that would provide them with tax credits of up to 50% of costs, totaling $1.7 billion over five years. This tax credit would provide incentives for private investors to redevelop single-family housing or build new homes for low- and moderate-income Americans. Bush said he expects this plan would build or rehabilitate 100,000 homes in five years.
Individual development accounts giving tax credits and other financial incentives for low-income families to save money for a home purchase, for education costs, or to start a business.
Source: Washington Post, p. G5 Oct 28, 2000
Housing: Use HUD rental vouchers for first home purchase
Creation of an "American Dream Downpayment Fund," which would allow low-income families to use up to a year's worth of HUD Section 8 rental vouchers to make a down payment on a home. "When a low-income family is qualified to buy a house but comes up short on the down payment, we will help them," Bush said. "If they and the bank can come up with 25% of the down payment, the government will pay the rest, up to $1,500." Section 8 vouchers can already be used to help with mortgage payments.
Source: Washington Post, p. G5 Oct 28, 2000

Transform low-income rentals to home ownership
We will transform today's housing rental program to help hundreds of thousands of low-income families find stability and dignity in a home of their own. And, in the next bold step of welfare reform, we will support the heroic work of homeless shelters and hospices, food pantries and crisis pregnancy centers -- people reclaiming their communities block-by-block and heart-by-heart. My administration will give taxpayers new incentives to donate to charity.
Source: Speech to Republican National Convention Aug 3, 2000

Bush is not a Republican and never has been. I am no fan of the party, but he has never followed thier stated goals. Bush is actually the combination of all the worst aspects of the Right combined with all the worst aspects of the Left. He is probably the very first Republicrat we have ever had in office.

Who forced lenders into 125% LTVs? Who pointed a gun to their head and made them offer low-interest teaser rates? Or no-money-down loans? Or liar's loans? And then who forced them to repackage the loans, get them re-rated (fraud galore), and resell them?
#61 | Posted by Danforth

No one forced them, they were fine as long as Freddie and Fannie were buying up everything in site. I am not saying what they did was right, and they payed the price when everything caught up with them. (ecept those that got bailed out by the liberals in our GOVT, namely Bush!) But they never could have done those things without 2 sets of people. 1 People too stupid to know what they were signing or what they could afford. 2 Politicians that pushed the Fannie and Freddie to do stupid things for political reasons. Then claimed everyone that warned of the dangers were racist and just did not want minorities to have a house.

"and they payed the price when everything caught up with them."

Yeah...taking that trillion dollars plus was painful!

" Politicians that pushed the Fannie and Freddie to do stupid things for political reasons."

Politicians do stupid things all the time. That doesn't force the banks to ignore everything they learned in school. Those greedy fucks just didn't want to lose market share.

"Bush is not a Republican and never has been."

If not then neither are Ronald REagan or Bush Sr.
They all believed in borrow and spend and trickle down economics which didn't work under any of the three president but did leave huge debts under all three.
I conclude that they were all Republicans as they claimed to be but that the Republican Party (that nominated and elected them) is not what you think it is nor what it claims to be. It is really run by a small group of extremely wealthy thugs who pander to religious extremists and other divisive groups to form a coalition which benefits the corporations and harms the working class.

"and they payed the price when everything caught up with them."

Yeah...taking that trillion dollars plus was painful!

#71 | Posted by Danforth

That is what this part was for... (ecept those that got bailed out by the liberals in our GOVT, namely Bush!)

Please pay attention

Danni,
You are 100% correct. The Republican party has changed and it did so under Reagan which is why all the current Repubs hold him up like a saint. The rise of the religious right and thier attempts at using Government to enforce their world view killed the RNC and the party of limited government became the party of limited rights.

"" Politicians that pushed the Fannie and Freddie to do stupid things for political reasons."

It has been stated by many authorities on the topic, the mortgage crisis was not caused by the actions of Freddie or Fannie. That is just the spin put on it to try and deflect the blame from Greenspan and Bush or created the housing bubble with extremely low interest rates to insure Bush's reelection in 2004. I can still remember all the posts by Republicans bragging about the great "Bush economy."

"Please pay attention"

Says the guy who believes Bush is a liberal, and only the liberals bailed out the Wall Street Welfare Queens.

Here's a clue: Bush---the conservative---drove the ship of state off the cliff. The 'bailout' was just a decision to engage the air bags before impact.

"their world view killed the RNC and the party of limited government became the party of limited rights."

As Goldwater?? said, "the party left me."

Danni,
Remember that just because a person calls themselves something does not mean they really are that. I have met many Christans who do not follow Christ's teachings, many intolerant liberals, Nazis called themselves Socialist, Stalin called himself a Communist...

As Goldwater?? said, "the party left me."

#77 | Posted by danni at 2008-12-17 02:29 PM

Yes, and the Goldwater clan supported Obama which should let us all know which side was the real Republican value side.

"Bush is not a Republican and never has been"

That's funny cause not all that long ago he was heralded by "republicans" as Reagan 3

2005
Chris Suellentrop writes: "Conservatives keep praising George W. Bush as the second coming of Ronald Reagan. Let's hope they're right."

2004
Larry Sabato

"I think that Ronald Reagan created the modern Republican Party, so obviously (the current President Bush) is a legatee of Reagan's and would be more similar than dissimilar," said Hess. "It is interesting of course that he really is closer and style and even in ideology to Reagan than to his father."

Certainly he's a Republican. The fact that he's not a conservative, at least fiscally, should not even be up for debate.

Redneck,
Both of those quotes validate my comment that the RNC changed drastically with Reagan and Bush was exactly the second comming of Ronnnie.

Joe,
But isn't fiscal conservatisim the chief cause of the Republican party? It is like saying someone was a Christan who denies Jesus, it doesn't work that way.

"The fact that he's not a conservative, at least fiscally, should not even be up for debate."

He certainly is when it comes to collecting taxes.

Which is part of the equation, if you didn't know.

2003
Like a lot of Republicans who have watched both Reagan and Bush at close hand, Deaver sees uncanny similarities between them. The presidents are alike in their outlooks and career paths, in their agendas of tax-cutting and confrontational deployment of American power, in the ideological mix of their advisers. (Whatever you read about the president's inheritance from his father and Gerald Ford, the Reagan DNA is dominant in the staffing, training and planning of the Bush administration.) More than that, there are important similarities of character and temperament. And both are simple men who have made a political virtue of being -- in Bush's word -- ''misunderestimated'' by the political elite

"Both of those quotes validate my comment that the RNC changed drastically with Reagan and Bush was exactly the second comming of Ronnnie."

Except that Reagan didn't also have Oedipal issues to work out.

Redneck,
You are assuming I think of Reagan as a Republican which I don't and anyone who is honest about what the RNC stood for would agree.

"But isn't fiscal conservatisim the chief cause of the Republican party?"

Not anymore. The leaders of said party do not do anything to limit spending.

I am going to be flamed here by most, but Ronnie was, I consider, among the worst Presidents of our history....actually, let me clear that statement up: the 12 years that GHWB was President was the worst and Ronnie was a great Cheerleader just like Dubya is. Both men allowed their VPs to run their adminstrations and they gave the speeches.

When Bush ran against Reagan, he ran a Bush/McCain style race, yet he suddenly decides to become the VP instead...then, suddenly, this former head of the CIA is almost made President when some guy shoots Reagan with explosive tip bullets to get the attention of an actress?

Joe,
Then they are not Republicans. Parties keep the same name, but change sides all the time. The Republicans were the party that freed the slaves over the Democrats protests, but it was the Democrats in the 1960's that fought for rights against Republican protests.

Here's a clue: Bush---the conservative---

#76 | Posted by Danforth

Sadly incorrect

Certainly he's a Republican. The fact that he's not a conservative, at least fiscally, should not even be up for debate.

#81 | Posted by JOE

Profoundly Correct!

Bush is a liberal! Just because someone has a R or a D after their name is just to get elected. Lets all understand it together... Bush is a fiscal Liberal!

"Bush is a fiscal Liberal!"

You're missing half the equation: the tax collection half.

"You're missing half the equation: the tax collection half."

Yeah - collecting 2.6 Trillion dollars in taxes is conservative. My bad.

but it was the Democrats in the 1960's that fought for rights against Republican protests.

#90 | Posted by kanre

"Bush is a fiscal Liberal!"

You're missing half the equation: the tax collection half.

#92 | Posted by Danforth
Give you a point on that one.

"Yeah - collecting 2.6 Trillion dollars in taxes is conservative. My bad."

It is when you spend 2.6 trillion. A real fiscal conservative would believe in a balanced budget, therefore Clinton was more conservative than REagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2.
I think what these guys turned into wasn't liberals by any stretch of the imagination but rather irresponsible warriors in the class war. They conspired to bankrupt the nation they led for the direct benefit of the wealthy. Wealth has become more concentrated at the top due to their actions and wages for the working class have stagnated. Our manufacturing economy has been sacrificed to allow them to profit on the labor of low paid serfs in other nations until such a time as our own living standard is as low as those of our labor competitors.

Years ago I lowered my expectations and drove my debt to zero. I'm content with what I have and don't feel a "need" which I lump in with addiction.

Fact is it's never enough. At first squeeze some run to the bankruptcy court to avoid their obligations, yet keep the stuff they can't do without. I'm facing a debtor who is doing just that, a victim with self-inflicted wounds.

I've found that adversity drives innovation. Those incapable of adaptation may steal, or beg, but those of us who are resourceful will emerge with a greater sense of self and accomplishment.

Tighten up, toughen up.

#98 | Posted by OzarkAggie

Great Post! Back on point.

Looks percentage wise that the Replubicans were more in favor of it than the Democratcs

Count the Dems from the south who voted against it.

Next election the Reps came out with the Southern Strategy and the Dems were gone.

I've despised the south ever since.

"A real fiscal conservative would believe in a balanced budget"

Not necessarily. If you manage to collect enough taxes to account for $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
00,000,000 in annual spending, are you a "conservative?" No. Having a balanced budget does not necessarily make you a conservative. The central tenet to fiscal conservatism is low spending - after that, the need for high taxes goes away.

"The central tenet to fiscal conservatism is low spending"

No it's not...it's fiscal sanity, which encompasses both sides of the equation.

Unless you think it's "conservative" to run up massive debts....

I present exhibit A: The Bush Administration and its rubber Stamps!

Piss poor deflection, redneckshill. We are talking about consumers. My reply was to your post which you youreslef referred to individual consumers. You move the goal posts to the government because you'd rather not answer my question.

FAIL

Even the U.S. Government tells people to spend. Look at the whole stimulus package scenerio. The government wants citizens to spend the money shopping rather than save it or pay off bills. Plus, local, state and the federal government can't live within its means. We are seeing increases in spending and increases in taxes. It's all one giant clusterf&$k right now.

The problem began when shopping became a hobby as opposed to a necessity. When people have to start renting storage units to store "stuff" because they have filled their McMansions with "stuff" then obviously there is an addiction there that is akin to those with drugs, gambling, alcohol etc. Go to a thrift store sometime and see the racks and racks of brand new clothing still with tags on them that people have bought, got home and didn't like yet were too lazy to take back to the store. Nope just donate it to the thrift store and go out and buy more "stuff". When builders have to include huge "walk in closets" in their plans because buyers demand them you have a problem. Check out an antique store some time, see the size of a "wardrobe" from the 50s or earlier. See where I am going here? When was the last time you heard of someone darning a pair of socks? Or repairing a pair of shoes? When an entire economy depends on people spending money they don't have on things they don't need then it is no wonder that the entire house of cards is about to topple.

Very good post, Litlebritdifrnt.

prolix,

It depends what you mean by Banks. Regulated Commercial Banks and Credit Unions (they loan 90% of customer deposits) are doing fine (at least so far).

Investment Banks, Brokers, Insurance Companies operating and operations like CitiBank that said fuck the regulations and made 40:1 leveraged bets on the oil you need, the housing collapse, corn, bought the farm. This in itself should have been tough shit for them.

But its what they did to foriegners that put sand in the vaseline. Repackaged, falsely rated loan packages and similar scams like the current $50 billion Ponzi Scheme, Enron, Arthur Anderson, Tycco, Worldcom, Lehman are all rooted in fraud, including current recipients of taxpayer bailout trillions.

These foriegners would have clogged US Civil Courts for decades, driving Paulson's former employer and hundreds of others into Bankruptcy. So, for the crooks sake, he stuck taxpayers for $1.55 trillion in cash and at least $8 trllion more in unfunded liabilities.

When you are in a position of power, you can break any law. Paulson took your money, most of it without asking. Bush killed a million people, displaced 4 million, maimed 2 million and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure. Yet they call it a Democracy.

RCADE disabled Ray's account. Please allow Ray back RCADE.

You think it freaks people to live within their means?

You should see the look on their faces when your friends start moving in with their arsenal along with the dried food, water and start stocking firewood.

It's hilarious.

"When was the last time you heard of someone darning a pair of socks? Or repairing a pair of shoes? When an entire economy depends on people spending money they don't have on things they don't need then it is no wonder that the entire house of cards is about to topple."

Brit:

You've got it right - people want too damn much, in addition to the woes imposed on our economy by Corporate America. It has gotten to the point that many people don't even know how to cut back any more. One of my neighbors has been laid off, so she and her family are making do on her husband's earnings (very decent) and her savings (not so decent). She was agonizing over having to cut out her cell phone accounts - one for her, one for each of her kids. She was distraught because she thought she wouldn't be able to have contact with the kids in emergencies. I told her about those cheap disposable cell phones that you buy cards for. $60 later at the local dollar store (for three phones and three one-hour cards), she and her kids had what they actually needed - a way to call for help in emergencies. It will cost them $30 a month to keep their service for all three phones active - a far cry from the $300 a month they were spending. The kids groused about having only one hour of call time each month, but at my suggestion, Mom told them they were free to get jobs and buy all the time they pleased.

She had had no clue there was an alternative to spending big bucks with one of the major cell carriers.

I am making it right now, barely, and have cut many things. I eat far less per day right now, I canceled my Netflix account, I bullied DirectTv into reducing my rates and giving me some channels for free, I still have no credit cards, my house is basically dark 24/7 so I can run the AC at a temp I like (I live in Miami so no AC is not even an option), and I have not bought a new DVD or seen a movie in a year. I do still buy new software for my PS3 however, so I am not just surviving, but am living a decent life, but not like I was three years ago.

I don't carry a cell phone. I keep an emergency pack in my car that I can hike 10 miles with before I'm ready to pass out. I don't need to be contacted by anyone when I'm not at home.

I buy food from local growers and I've cut back on a lot of the meat I used to eat. I don't have cable television. My only forms of entertainment are books, rented movies or *GASP* going outside and using my imagination.

Recently I've been learning different methods for building a fire without fuel and building emergency shelters using some 550 cord and a few tarps. Also learned a neat little trick for a firepit without the risk of the fire getting away from you and burning down the damn forest.

I've been living like this for years. It affords me the ability to spend money on the things I need, when I need them. If I have to, I save up for a couple of months. No credit cards. No borrowing money.

"Living Within Your Means Freaks People Out"

.....and god forbid people actually live below their means and maintain a personal savings! Oh the horror of saving for a rainy day!

"Oh the horror of saving for a rainy day!"

I'll say. I did, and for my pains, I'll now get to bail out those who didn't.

"Gee, CC, by that logic all men should marry you once in order to find out what true suffering is and count their lucky stars after divorcing you.

#3 | Posted by LetUsPrey

You should only be that lucky. She has more heart than you were born with, TinMan.

#12 | Posted by wisgod "

Says you. The clueless wonder.

You don't know me, and what's more, I could give a flying fuck in a rolling donut what you say about me, my sister, my mom, my wife, whatever....get it, gramps? Fuck you.

AXIOM - You should check out BladeForums.Com.