Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, December 12, 2008

The future of the U.S. auto industry was in doubt Friday morning after a proposal for $14 billion in federal loans died in a late night Senate vote. The failure followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise that both parties, as well as the companies and the United Auto Workers union, could accept.

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Ha! I didn't see it already posted...delete this one, Rcade, if ya don't mind...

Thank you UAW for screwing things up, as usual!

They are going to get their just desserts now.

That seems to be what happened, the union skunked the deal. It was all there, they could have had the money, all they had to do was put some skin in the game.

Or, if you turn the picture around a bit, the GOPiggies skunked the deal because of their union-busting obsession. Silly not to factor into the equation GOPiggy senators' vested interest in seeing the foreign car manufacturing plants in their non-unionized states flourish.

Why do you think foreign cars makers avoid Michigan, not setting up shop here? It's the fucking UAW that's why! What is so wrong with wanting to get rid of a ruinous organization like the worthless UAW?

Yep, union busting trumps the national interest. Unless you happen to beleive union busting is in the national interest.

Why do you think foreign cars makers avoid Michigan, not setting up shop here?

Yeah, probably has nothing at all to do with the taxpayer giveaways in the other states in the form of free land, tax breaks, etc.

THE MYTHS OF AUTO WORKER WAGES
www.gather.com

In recent hearings on the bailout of Detroit's Big Three auto companies, there were some major pieces of disinformation being spread. Here is an example:

Sen. Jon Kyl: "For years they've been sick. They have a bad business model. They have contracts negotiated with the United Auto Workers that impose huge costs. The average hourly cost per worker in this country is about $28.48. For these auto makers, it's $73. And for the Japanese auto companies working here in the United States, it's $48."

The contract negotiated with the UAW in 2007 set the average auto worker's wage at $28. The $73 number was arrived at by taking all the costs of retirement and healthcare programs and dividing by the total number of hours worked by all employees. But those total numbers include the costs for the hundreds of thousands of retirees. US auto companies have been in business for nearly a hundred years, and there are still a lot of retirees who are alive and collecting their pensions. The actual value of benefits received by employees is around $10/hour.

Foreign auto companies have two big advantages here: First, the workers who build cars in foreign countries are mostly covered by government pension and healthcare systems, so the manufacturers are not burdened with those costs. Secondly, their local factories here in this country have not been in business long enough to accumulate a large army of retirees. For the local factories, this will even out over time, but in the interim, the Big Three are operating at a cost disadvantage.

The point is, auto workers receive compensation comparable to other workers in this country. So what's going on here? Why all this demonizing of the "greedy" unions who drove the poor hapless auto companies into the ground with their unreasonable demands? It's all about politics.

Making false claims inflating the earnings of unionized workers is part of the Republicans' long-held practice of union bashing. It's intended to create envy and disgust at people making a good hourly wage, and to undermine public support for workers' right to organize and engage in collective bargaining. An hourly wage of $28 per hour works out to a gross annual income (before taxes, Social Security, etc.) of about $58,000. For a typical family of four, this is barely enough to survive these days, and for most families, it probably means that both parents have to work.

Also, harping on imaginary and inflated wages for workers is a way to distract from one of the big problems with the US auto companies (and most US corporations in any sector): executive compensation. For instance, in 2007 General Motors CEO Rick Waggoner made close to $20 million in total compensation. That works out to about $10,000 per hour.

If the bailout is withheld, who will suffer? Will Rick Waggoner go hungry? Of course not. He may have to sell a couple of his mansions, but I am sure he and his family won't suffer. The same is not true for the workers in the shuttered plants. In fact, the total costs of unemployment benefits, welfare payments, Medicaid costs, etc. could approach or even exceed the cost of the bailout. But what of the misery and poverty those people will suffer. Is it their fault that their bosses were blind to the reality of exploding oil prices, insisting on building huge gas-guzzling behemoths because of their short-term profit? No, it was not their fault, and the people who are now trying to shift the blame to them in order to torpedo the bailout are engaging in class warfare of the most despicable kind.

"About Those Auto Worker Wages..."
realidealist.net

The piece concludes:

Making false claims inflating the earnings of unionized workers is also part of the Republicans' long-held practice of class warfare. It's intended to gin up envy and disgust at people making a good hourly wage. Few people would be unsympathetic to an auto worker for making $58,000 per year. But more would feel unsympathetic if they thought that same auto worker made $73 per hour, which over the course of a year is over $150,000.

Finally, harping on imaginary and inflated wages for workers is a way to distract from one of the big problems with the US auto companies (and most US corporations in any sector): executive compensation. For instance, in 2007 General Motors CEO Rick Waggoner made close to $20 million in total compensation.

Are you surprised that conservatives are playing with math to come up with the false figure of $73 per hour for UAW members working at the Big Three, while saying nothing about a Big Three CEO making $9,500.00 per hour?

Me neither.


Nor I.

Yeah, probably has nothing at all to do with the taxpayer giveaways in the other states in the form of free land, tax breaks, etc.

#7 | Posted by TedBaxter

Has the State of Michigan ever given a tax incentive to an auto manufacturer like one of the big 3 or a big supplier to either move to the State or grow in that state?

I'm certain that over time when one of them wanted to build a huge facility to increase employment, there wasn't some sort of assistance in the form of reduced property taxes etc. given to these guys.

Just last year, I remember the state of Michigan running advertising to attract new employers to relocate to Michigan. I doubt seriously that there wasn't some incentive being offered to employers to do this.

My point is that Michigan isn't any different than other states when it comes to their attempts to attract and retain employees in their state.

michiganadvantage.org

No way!!! Michigan isn't offering "giveaways" are they????

What is hard to calculate is that how many employers and jobs have chosen to NOT locate to Michigan or LEFT Michigan in the last 30 years due to the fear of their workforce unionizing.

I can't say how many so I won't even speculate.

Finally. Doing the will of 62% of the people.

"Doing the will of 62% of the people"

Of whom it may be presumed more than three-quarters believe angels regularly pay visits to our planet.
(Source:
www.knoxstudio.com)

Of whom it may be presumed more than three-quarters believe angels regularly pay visits to our planet.

So when do you believe in the "will of the people"?

When 62% support gay marriage and current laws are reversed then you will make that same post and assert that the will is worthless because most believe in angels visiting earth?

This will be a done deal, and isn't it interesting that the media is pushing the fall of the auto companies.

People who have actually done a small amount of research on this subject can clearly see that the UAW have nothing to do with this and in fact played there concessionary part in preventing this but the actual numbers and facts never appear in the main media so the populus can judge and make clear decision on this issue.

One just have to wonder what benefit people like wisgod is receiving from this very anti-american representation of the people.

One just have to wonder what benefit people like wisgod is receiving from this very anti-american representation of the people.

#15 | Posted by moneywar

I'm just one of the 62%. Bush can divert the money from the bank bailout pot. Will that be acceptable to you, or did it have to be this particular bill?

for one am glad the UAW stood up to our representatives and said we don't need your stinking help, these poor guys are under paid as it is. Why should the UAW work at the same pay and benefit level as someone working for Toyota, I would do the same thing if someone tried to give me a life jacket I would rather drown first fuckem all. I think they should all walk off the job and go on strike that will show them bastards in Washington who is boss, everyone knows they could have kept the same pay and benefits at a higher rate than Toyota, just print up some more money how hard could that be.

GOOOOOO UAW ha ha ha ha lol lol lol lol

When the people actually find out the truth in the information of the auto industry congress better hope they have made the correct decision because when the layoffs begin in a couple of weeks there is going to be hell to pay.

Like I said, the guy you lefties love to hate will get it done. Bush has more than 1 credit card in his wallet.

I'm just one of the 62%. Bush can divert the money from the bank bailout pot. Will that be acceptable to you, or did it have to be this particular bill?

I am a manager in manufacturing, and if they are thinking like I do, I would begin major layoffs and plant closing immediately.

When the people start to scream, just tell them the truth, we in the auto manufacturing don't play politics we make cars. Now we are out of cash so people have to go in order to save the much needed cash. Go talk to your political playing congressmen.

So when do you believe in the "will of the people"?

Let's see...hmmmm...when I think the majority represents a view that I find sensible and beneficial to society? Yep, that's it, you betcha.

Like I said, the guy you lefties love to hate will get it done. Bush has more than 1 credit card in his wallet.

Now that deserves a funny flag!

Let's see...hmmmm...when I think the majority represents a view that I find sensible and beneficial to society?

so you don't give a shit about it. YOu will simply point to it when it represents what you want.

thanks for playing.

"the guy you lefties love to hate will get it done"

The destruction of the nation?
He's done a heckuva job so far.
So I think you're probably right that he's up to the task.

I am a manager in manufacturing, and if they are thinking like I do, I would begin major layoffs and plant closing immediately.

That was going to happen anyway.

Make sure to treat yourself to a happy ending.

Poor Doc doesn't like it when he is exposed for being the selfish person that he is.

cry us a river fool

I can point you to a job at honda for $10 an hour.
Through a third party employer for the first 2 years.

Wont even go into the tax breaks.

"cry us a river fool"

OK, Eberly, I've finished the calculations. The bad news: you get an "F" for originality. But, wait, here's the good news: you earned an "A" for embarrassing yourself.

While there are wildly varying statements regarding labor's wages and the labor costs associated with the cost of car production, a little "homework" generally reveals that the labor cost is a fairly small percentage of the final car production cost. To put it another way, even if labor were to cut their wages in half (BTW, would many of YOU would be willing to do that?!) AND that savings was passed directly on to the consumer, it likely would not substantially affect the market-ability of US cars.

Looking for an obvious "bad guy" for the cause of this situation (and a simplistic quick fix) is a fool's errand. Pinning the blame on labor costs has more to do with a political strong-arm tactic against labor unions than a viable solution.

Bottom line: the US auto industry is hurting because they are losing market share (translated: their cars are NOT selling and it is NOT because of a few $1K difference in labor cost). The US auto industry (generally) is not making "what the customer wants". It's difficult (and likely pointless) to determine whether "we" got here through negligence or "bad luck". What is more to the point is that it didn't happen over-night and it (likely) will not be solved over-night. The choice now is whether we (as a nation) are willing to "buck up" and invest ($$$, time, and effort) in "our" auto industry or do we let it die.

That seems to be what happened, the union skunked the deal. It was all there, they could have had the money, all they had to do was put some skin in the game.
#3 | Posted by sawdust

No way this is the UAW you are talking to show some respect the Auto workers deserve a pay raise not a cut in pay and besides it's just bailout money anyway so who cares. All UAW members should walk off the job until they get a pay raise and better benefits. If the pay were doubled for each worker along with an increase in benefits then Detroit could just raise the price per vehicle a couple thousand dollars and Washington could send money directly to the buyers in the form of a rebate check this would spread things around as it were.

GOOO UAW...

The choice now is whether we (as a nation) are willing to "buck up" and invest ($$$, time, and effort) in "our" auto industry or do we let it die.

Regardless of who we blame, I would still point to the big 3 as the experts in this country on auto manufacturing.

I am for doing what we can to help but really don't know what a bailout will do unless it is a meaningful way for them to formulate a plan to go forward in a productive manner.

UAW IS THE ROUTE PROBLEM AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS.

YES THEY SHOULD WALK OUT AND STAY OUT SO THE AUTO COMPANIES CAN HIRE PRODUCTIVE WORKERS AT RESONABLE WAGES.

But, wait, here's the good news: you earned an "A" for embarrassing yourself.

#29 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2008-12-12 09:01 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)self retorting retort

ONe thing certain, if the economy does continue to slide into depression the Republicans are making sure that they will get the credit for it.
They play dangerous games over ideological points but just as the recession we are now enjoying was not expected by them they still caused it and still get the credit for it. Why anyone would still support the same people who brought you the housing bubble and subsequent bust amazes me, some people are so blinded by ideology that they happily sacrifice their own wealth to ideas that have been disproven over and over. You will never save the middle class of this country by busting unions, you think when you harm workers in another state that it won't also effect you but eventually it will.
Auto workers in Alabama or Georgia may think it is great to bust the UAW but the economic repurcussions will also destroy the market for the cars they build in southern states too.

"Regardless of who we blame, I would still point to the big 3 as the experts in this country on auto manufacturing.

I am for doing what we can to help but really don't know what a bailout will do unless it is a meaningful way for them to formulate a plan to go forward in a productive manner.
#32 | Posted by eberly at 2008-12-12 09:17 AM"

Agree (somewhat). Maybe what's called for is a review of what auto manufacturing experts in OTHER countries are doing.

Eberly,

The big three said they are strapped for cash, that is a short term problem and if we don't help that short term problem it WILL turn into a LONG term problem.

In fact, not giving them a short term fix could very well send them into bankrupcy.

Long term means R&D is put on the back burner, which further puts the big three behind the 8 ball with the competitors.

I can't even believe this is even in a debate with our congress. There are a few actual Anti-American things I have seen done by politicians but never an entire congress.

When the people actually find out the truth in the information of the auto industry congress better hope they have made the correct decision because when the layoffs begin in a couple of weeks there is going to be hell to pay.
#18 | Posted by moneywar

Bullshit this is the UAW you are talking to buddy and nobody is going to get laid off, if Detroit tries that Auto workers will walk out and strike. When you are talking to the UAW you will show some respect and you will like it, the UAW made this town and they can bring down the entire country if their demands are not met with money and respect...

Agree (somewhat). Maybe what's called for is a review of what auto manufacturing experts in OTHER countries are doing.

Then congress would have to admit to the allowing of the unfair trade practice being applied with congressional consent destroying the big 3. Nope, congress will never take such a look as make public their unfair trade agreements.

The banks just got around, $350,000,000 from the tax payers.

Why don't the car makers go to the banks for a loan like I would have to do??

Bullshit this is the UAW you are talking to buddy and nobody is going to get laid off, if Detroit tries that Auto workers will walk out and strike. When you are talking to the UAW you will show some respect and you will like it, the UAW made this town and they can bring down the entire country if their demands are not met with money and respect...

LOL!!

Talk about riding a whale!

First of the year, layoff will really begin and will not be surprise if the notices don't get handed out in the next week.

Why don't the car makers go to the banks for a loan like I would have to do??

Go figure that out an you'll have come up to modern times.

Blaming the UAW for the auto makers need for a bailout would make sense if Japanese auto makers weren't getting bailed out by the Japanese government. Unfortunately though, they are, so it reinforces the truth....that the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS is creating short term liquidity problems for ALL automakers around the world. I realize that doesn't fit in with the simplistic union busting rhetoric by the Republicans but as in many other situations reality is a superfluous concept in their quest to destroy the middle class.

UAW IS THE ROUTE PROBLEM AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS.
YES THEY SHOULD WALK OUT AND STAY OUT SO THE AUTO COMPANIES CAN HIRE PRODUCTIVE WORKERS AT RESONABLE WAGES.
#33 | Posted by ozzieoswald

Bullshit Detroit can not do anything without the consent of the UAW, why do you think they bargain and negotiate to simply get "PRODUCTIVE WORKERS AND REASONABLE WAGES" that would be stupid. The UAW brings what nobody else can and when the going gets tough and someone tries to throw them a life jacket they tell them to fuck off right away. The UAW made Detroit and will bring down the country if need be, the pirates get their money right away and yet Americans have to wait ???? This is Bullshit I tell you Bullshit wait and see you will all be sorry you should have given up the money no strings...

Danni,

As critical as I am of the democratic party and their laziness doing nothing, I agree more with you here for the most part.

"the democratic party and their laziness"

After all this time, MW still doesn't understand how governance works.

As if the failure of the bailout isn't proof enough.

screw the uaw and screw detroit ..let them fail.

After all this time, MW still doesn't understand how governance works.

LOL! Now you know what representation looks like when it comes from pure laziness.

I can't even believe this is even in a debate with our congress. There are a few actual Anti-American things I have seen done by politicians but never an entire congress.

#37 | Posted by moneywar

anti american? Are you f'ing insane? This is selective intervention and a temporary fix at BEST. Detroit is 6 months from collapse at BEST.. They aren't selling cars at a profit and the demand for autos has and will continue to plummet.

After all this time, MW still doesn't understand how governance works.

The last time we saw congress in such pure laziness we found ourselves in a war.

And all congress has to do is read but can't manage it.

"Now you know what representation looks like when it comes from pure laziness."

As if politicians are "pure" anything. The fact remains, give me 41+ Senators, and I can make you look lazy, too. Especially if I set the record for filibusters in less than half the time.

You should be forced to take a civics class...and this time, pass it.

Wow! We could have written that headline at the beginning of this mess. Unions seem to take great delight in standing in the way of reform that could possibly save their jobs. Remember when the airline pilot's unions killed Eastern Airlines?

All the unions had to do in order to get the Republicans to go for this $15 billion bailout was to promise to reduce union wages to the level paid to automakers in the Toyota and Nissan plants by the end of 2009. No way. They weren't going for it. So now GM has hired bankruptcy council.

so to Danni and all the others out there, keep thinking that Unions are GOOD. , im just waiting for everyone else that screwed up to start asking for a bail out. lol

For months, politicians have been creeping around the real source of this auto bailout: the unions. They know the UAW is the problem but they are too afraid to say it. Why? Because of exactly what I said before: power. But Jim DeMint says, "The primary driver behind this is the unions, because bankruptcy allows the auto companies to basically restructure all their contracts in a way that a bankruptcy judge says will make them sustainable ... And if they do that, then essentially the unions lose all their leverage. It's the unions that have brought them to the brink. So definitely, I think the reason they want a political solution and a car czar is because a car czar can protect the unions through this whole process at the expense of the taxpayer." Makes sense ... so why did the UAW stand in the way of this $15 billion? I'll tell you why. Because they know they can get the full deal as soon as the Democrats take over, without any strong wage concessions. They're betting that GM doesn't pull the bankruptcy lever before PEBO gets sworn in.

Good for them! Maybe now they will file bankruptcy protection and restructure. It's not like new cars are selling anyway.

Restructuring will make them more competitive.

It is not right for the US government to bail out one private company and let the other go under!!!!!

I could see people getting pretty pissed off if the bailout happens.

As if the failure of the bailout isn't proof enough.
#46 | Posted by Danforth

Hey Danforth I am with you 100% on this one buddy, I hope that spell check idea worked out for you yesterday, glad to help when I can?! Anyway the japs are being bailedsd out so why not do the same for our own". I know Danforth would agree with me when I say Damnit thiss is enough our boys deserve better than the japs they deserve a raise cause they build better stuff that is american in America? Who cares it's just bailout money and Pirates in somalialup get paid right away so why not our guys ??!!
..............................
.....

"For months, politicians have been creeping around the real source of this auto bailout: the unions. They know the UAW is the problem but they are too afraid to say it. "

You're joking, right?

Half the signatures on the Union contract are management, who then makes 100% of all the other decisions, and you want to blame the only folks who operated in good faith and fulfilled their part of the bargain?!?

"I hope that spell check idea worked out for you yesterday"

The funniest part is you still don't know where you made mistakes.

Half the signatures on the Union contract are management

That's funny.

Half the signatures on mafia "Protection Arrangements" are the business owners themselves.

Danforth,

I don't think ATAX will ever understand where he made the mistake, it follows along with his posts.

If the big 3 fail then kiss the remainder of the economy buh-bye. The import market fell last night after the announcement. Why? Simple, with the big 3 gone the suppliers go, if they go the imports cannot do business here. They use the same suppliers but those suppliers cannot survive without the big 3 $. I know, I worked for one for 10 years. We had 16 car companies as customers but 45% of the business was from the big 3, you can't lose that kind of revenue and survive. Up to and including several more million jobs go. The bar across from the plant goes, the grocery store the autoworker shops at suffers, the local DIY, the local oil change and tire store, the dealerships go, etc. etc. etc. If you don't believe me take a look at Flint, MI. Albion, MI. Detroit, MI. etc. You'll see a lot more of that kind of poverty and hopelessness all over this land if the big 3 are allowed to fail. I KNOW the UAW is at fault but so are the idiots that have been trying to kill this deal. The US cannot hope to survive without the big 3. They won't rest until we are all in the bread line...

The Democrats have control of the Senate. Three of them voted against the bailout. Had they voted yes, and the other Dems stayed in line, the automakers could be spending the money, right now.

So we need to be thankful for those 3 Democrats, which include Baucus of Montana. Hard to imagine why the union decided to cut off their nose to spite their face, but I'm not a plastic surgeon, and don't really give a damn.

"Half the signatures on mafia "Protection Arrangements" are the business owners themselves."

Never been in a Union negotiating session, have you?

The comparison is Godwinian.

Ron Gettelfinger, the UAW president, will be giving a press conference soon, make that now!

You'll see a lot more of that kind of poverty and hopelessness all over this land if the big 3 are allowed to fail.

* * * *

BREAKING NEWS!!

The Big 3 have failed. Maybe instead of pretending that these giant automakers and investment banks are "too big to fail", we should just acknowledge that they are, actually, too big to succeed. And break 'em up. The capital markets are already saying it's over. Why throw good money after bad?

The comparison is Godwinian.

A group of thugs coercing business owners into over-inflating the price paid for a service?

The comparison is quite apt.

"I KNOW the UAW is at fault "

Because all management does is choose the models, design the cars, pick the colors, name the vehicles, choose the dealerships, set the prices, decide on incentives, secure the financing, overpay executives, set terms on car loans...

...and provide half the signatures on the employment contract.

Never been in a Union negotiating session, have you?

#61 | Posted by Danforth
* * * *

Few of us have. And it would have been a good idea for the Senate of the United States to have had a union negotiating session, over the past day or two. But the UAW told them to go screw themselves.

"A group of thugs coercing business owners into over-inflating the price paid for a service?"

That's so last century.

If management didn't like the contract, they didn't have to sign it. Contracts are only signed when both sides think they're getting the best deal.

"But the UAW told them to go screw themselves."

Not that I doubt you, but...link?

Because all management does is choose the models, design the cars, pick the colors, name the vehicles, choose the dealerships, set the prices, decide on incentives, secure the financing, overpay executives, set terms on car loans...

...and provide half the signatures on the employment contract.

#65 | Posted by Danforth
* * * * *

Couldn't agree more. Management deserves to go. And bankruptcy will see to that.

Damn, all thoes workers will be out of a job. Who will make my next car? I guess I'll just have to drive a Ford untill the UAW busts them too.

"Management deserves to go. And bankruptcy will see to that."

Why is bankruptcy required to remove all the bad decision-makers?

The funniest part is you still don't know where you made mistakes.

#56 | Posted by Danforth

Yea that is a real knee slapper, I thought it was two mistakes two fargmented sentances and three periods at the end of the line. At least you have a sense of humor ?,?

Senator Corker asked the UAW President to come to Washington, or at least empower his representatives in Washington to negotiate on the union's behalf instead of just being a messenger boy. But Gettelfinger said no. It was on CNBC this morning.

To be fair, I haven't heard Gettelfinger's side of the story. But Corker wanted union wages to become "competitive" (NOT "at parity with") transplant companies by a certain date, which the union could name. And the union said no, that they would consider it.

Keep the $15 billion. We'll need it to pay out the unemployment benefits, rather than pour it into a busted business model.

"To be fair, I haven't heard Gettelfinger's side of the story."

Didn't stop you from claiming the UAW told Congress to screw.

"And the union said no, that they would consider it."

Then it's not really a screw-off, is it?


Damn, all thoes workers will be out of a job. Who will make my next car? I guess I'll just have to drive a Ford untill the UAW busts them too.

You won't have to worry about that. You won't have a job, so you won't be able to afford a car... or food... or heat. You'll either starve to death or freeze to death. Either way, driving will be the least of your worries.

So Gettelfinger basically admited that THEY skunked the deal.

What a whiner and a complainer Gettelfinger is!

Why aren't people calling for him to resign? He needs to go pronto!

Attention Taxpayers:

Paulson apparently wants to use your tax money to bail out these losers. Let Hank know how you feel!

"Let Hank know how you feel!"

Oh, we will. We already did when we elected Obama.

Gettelfinger whine fest continues, blame everyone else, still hasn't offered to resign.

Glad it failed. American auto makers have an image problem and have remained behind the curve for a long time. They are broke because they have an unsustainable business model that will not change because of a bailout. And we certainly do not need our banks and car manufacturers becoming government funded entities that will never have a chance to make a profit like Amtrak. Furthermore, the forefathers would have never wanted the term general welfare to be misconstrued to giving tax payer dollars to failing companies. Bailing them out is only a short term fix (if even that) with greater long term damage that will come from bigger government, more taxes, larger debt, increasing inflation, etc.

Real Conservatism is an important part of a healthy economy. Minding your own business, not going deeply into debt, doing what's best for the company or country.

What galls me about the Republicans, many who claim to be "Conservative", is that they will sell a company or the whole country down the river to gain a seat. They demonstrated this with their Impeachment of Clinton, repeal of Glass Steagal, Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, passage of Bankruptcy legislation designed to keep the little guy in debt for the rest of his life.

But far and away the worst behavior ever exhibited by these corrupt fake Conservatives is bailing out the financial sector to the tune of $1.55 trillion. Paulson saved his former employer while ignoring the underlying problems in the housing market. BushCo and their co-conspirators are concerned only with the top 1% of the country. Democrats are easily manipulated by these indifferent greedfuckers to do any good.

"They are broke because they have an unsustainable business model that will not change because of a bailout."

OK, now explain why foreign auto makers are also in need of bailouts.

General Motors has liabilities of $64 billion. They can't pay them. If they're going to use taxpayer dollars to send their way, make sure it's on the other side of bankruptcy, and after we've wiped out the common and debt holders. Otherwise, it's just money flushed away.

You won't have to worry about that. You won't have a job, so you won't be able to afford a car... or food... or heat. You'll either starve to death or freeze to death. Either way, driving will be the least of your worries.

#75 | Posted by KnowsTooMuch

You mean it's the end of the world?

I thought that if they went 'tits up' someone else would build the cars that we drive? I guess you'r saying that won't happen. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.

"We're going to have riots. There are already people rioting because they're losing their jobs when everybody else is being bailed out. The fairness of it becomes more and more evident as we go along. The auto companies may be hurting," he said, but "there are very few companies that aren't hurting and they're going to hurt. We don't have enough money to bail everyone out."

Bullshit the UAW has what it takes and just like a pit bull locked on to a hog jowl they will hold out for a pay raise not just a bailout, after all fair is fair the Pirates in Somalia have their demands met and our boys go with out, the riots are coming now that the UAW has been disrespected...


The big three said they are strapped for cash, that is a short term problem and if we don't help that short term problem it WILL turn into a LONG term problem.

Short Term? Really?

Chrysler has been here before. Remember the Lee Iaccoca ads?


When you are talking to the UAW you will show some respect and you will like it, the UAW made this town and they can bring down the entire country if their demands are not met with money and respect...

And while they're starving or standing in bread lines, those of us who have prepared for calamity will relax and watch the world go by.

Go for it.

I say we press the reset button on this fucker and start over.

You won't have to worry about that. You won't have a job, so you won't be able to afford a car... or food... or heat. You'll either starve to death or freeze to death. Either way, driving will be the least of your worries.
#75 | Posted by KnowsTooMuch

Good thing I am always prepared most people have a manger scene set up for Christmas, unless you are a damn atheist or just an asshole. Well mine has a real donkey left over from the campaign he my be slow stupid and act like a jackass but I can ride him until he runs out of hay and to top it all off he shits fertilizer for my victory garden
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO UAW...

OK, now explain why foreign auto makers are also in need of bailouts.

Simple. People are either broke or worried about the future and they aren't buying cars right now. There are a ton of companies that "need" bailouts - hell, mine might need one next year. But it doesn't mean I should get one and nor should anybody else. Then again, I know you really like to give other people's money away - apparently to the very rich folk that you seem to hate.

"Good thing I am always prepared most people have a manger scene set up for Christmas, unless you are a damn atheist or just an asshole."

Gee, so all Jews are assholes???

Who knew??

How can you consider anything an idiot like that says seriously??? And this CLOWN is expressing his opinions about the economy and other serious topics as if he has a clue. It would be funny if there weren't millions of others equally stupid.

"Then again, I know you really like to give other people's money away - apparently to the very rich folk that you seem to hate."

So the Japanese will insure that their automakers survive this financial crisis while the ideologically pure United States does not.
Brilliant strategy for America to be competitive.

Well if we can not help the auto industry out; can go get EVERY FUCKING LAST CENT BACK FROM THE FUCKING BANKS?

1) Ford actually turned a profit 1st quarter of 2008. The credit crisis and high gas prices have hurt all the auto makers. I think toyota had a 34% loss last quarter.

2) I think base salary is around $30/hr for both UAW and workers in the southern plants. It is the benefit package that makes UAW workers more expensive. As a Mechanical Engineer with a Masters Degree whose salaried wage works out to about $39/hr, I have little sympathy for someone doing unskilled labor. Don't get me wrong, the man or woman who hand builds the corvette engine deserves to be paid well, the worker who tightens the lug nuts on the wheel before it comes off the line does not really do $30/hr work (I know the $30/hr is an average and I don't know the full details of the Union Contract)

3) After that last union bashing point. I'd like to defend them a little. Does anyone know the labor costs per vehicle the UAW claims $2400 per vehicle, that includes engineering and R&D also. What is it at BMW, Toyota & Honda's US plants. The point is it is not much of the total cost. US autos are not more expensive than their foreign counterparts. They are also not drastically less fuel efficient. I think the group that needs to go is the bean counters in management. How can a company like GM make a car like the G8, which the best 30K sedan out there. And then sell the base cobalt and expect it to compete with a civic (or other) spend an extra $1000 on the car and make the interior ... not cheap and shitty.

4) Why do the US auto makers sell cars that people buy in Europe and Australia?

Good thing I am always prepared most people have a manger scene set up for Christmas, unless you are a damn atheist or just an asshole. Well mine has a real donkey left over from the campaign he my be slow stupid and act like a jackass but I can ride him until he runs out of hay and to top it all off he shits fertilizer for my victory garden
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO UAW...

Gee, so all Jews are assholes???

Who knew??

#89 | Posted by danni

Danni it's easy the Jews all have candles so you can tell thier not atheist or assholes...

hey this topic is about the auto bailout not assholes

"Republicans' long-held practice of class warfare."

I don't give a damn who said it, that is the biggest bunch of BS. Class warfare is indulged in enthusiastically by the left in every instance they can use or invent along with racial inequality, whether it exists or not, economic inequality, no matter if the same effort is being put out by all parties, I could go on forever! Blame who you want but this is at the feet of the UAW and everyone knows it!

"GOPiggy senators' vested interest in seeing the foreign car manufacturing plants in their non-unionized states flourish"

What the hell were they thinking taking interest in their home state & constituents? Those bastards!

"Blame who you want but this is at the feet of the UAW and everyone knows it!"

Absolute nonsense. Labor accounts for 10% of the cost of a car. Labor doesn't design or choose which models to build. What really is to blame....FREE TRADE. We let countries paying far lower wages dump cars here for years while protecting their own markets from our auto makers. It's been true in virtually every part of manufacturing. It isn't unions we need to kill it's free trade. We need to have RECIPROCITY with any nation exporting products here and we need remove the advantage of paying thier own people such low wages by enacting tariffs to force them to raise wages or pay tariffs instead.

While I agree that the UAW is not totally to blame. You are forgetting that foreign car makers make cars here and sell them for more than their American counterparts.

Its a complete misconception that foreign cars sell better because they are cheaper.

It's that type of thinking that causes management to cut costs at every corner and leaves us with an often inferior product

How many of you die hard labor supporters own American cars? just curious to see how many hypocrites are on here

I'm not a die hard labor supporter, but I do support the bridge loan to Detroit. And I own an American car - FoMoCo. I love it, its great quality - every bit the equal of the Toyotas and Honda's some of my friends drive.

While I agree that the UAW is not totally to blame. You are forgetting that foreign car makers make cars here and sell them for more than their American counterparts.

I do not in any way disagree with that but this idea that the UAW is a champion of the little guy just doesn't fit with how they operate today. Unions in general have become what they were designed to work against.

My wife has 2 GM's and I have a Ford. I think the reliability gap is much smaller than most people think.

I still think the quality of things like the interior and general fit and finish has some room for improvement.

"I don't give a damn who said it, (class warfare) is the biggest bunch of BS."

Someone hasn't been paying attention during the last 8 years.

According to GM, the average hourly worker makes $30/hr. However, the average worker works about 315 hours/year overtime so their real average salary is close to $40/hour. $40 X 40hours X 52 weeks = $83,200/year (machinists make more).

This is straight cash salary without benefits.

The most costly part of benefits is the pension plan which the auto makers want to cut and the UAW of course wants to keep.

Thanks for the info Freddyk

"I don't give a damn who said it, (class warfare) is the biggest bunch of BS."

Someone hasn't been paying attention during the last 8 years.

Actually, I have been paying attention which has only confirmed my beliefs on this issue. George Bush is an entitled prick because of daddy but the Kennedy boys are selfless civil servants right?
I was speaking specifically about the assertation that the Republicans engage in it and have for some time but I'll bite.
Thanks for reminding me that liberals don't have the balls to call it what it is. They call it "seeking justice & equality" and "standing up for the middle class" when what it is IS class warefare designed to stick it to Richie Rich whether he worked for it or not because it's not "fair" for everyone else who aren't as rich whether they work for it or not either! It is a standard procedure of the left to feed a particular group's feelings of inadequacy & their jealousy & then convince them that bitterness & hatred of someone else's good fortune is the best way to improve their own circumstances. Look at it this way, nobody hates the ugly, unpopular girl in high school. They hate the pretty, popular one. She probably is a bitch and may deserve it but the truth is, you're hating on her while wishing you were her and we're supposed to believe that you'll be more gracious with your powers right? Same thing with class warfare. My biggest problem with it is this idea that the "have nots" would be any different if they became the "haves" when that for the most part is not true.
Class warfare is primarily a tool of the left and man does it work.

"George Bush is an entitled prick because of daddy but the Kennedy boys are selfless civil servants right?"

Well, the Bushs seem to want regulations which favor the Bushs. The Kennedys seem to push for legislation to help the masses.

"what it is IS class warefare designed to stick it to Richie Rich"

As I said, someone isn't paying attention, and didn't notice the wealthiest got a 60% tax rate cut on their dividends.

"Class warfare is primarily a tool of the left "

Then I want my tax money back. Anyone paying attention the last 8 years has seen the rich get A LOT richer via slashed taxes on the wealthiest, and the poor and middle class stagnate.


You won't have to worry about that. You won't have a job, so you won't be able to afford a car... or food... or heat. You'll either starve to death or freeze to death. Either way, driving will be the least of your worries.

#75 | Posted by KnowsTooMuch
You mean it's the end of the world?
I thought that if they went 'tits up' someone else would build the cars that we drive? I guess you'r saying that won't happen. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.

#84 | POSTED BY SNIPER

Yep, it's pretty much the end of the world. Yesterday, money.cnn.com posted interviews with some of the "best minds" in finance. We're faced with, at best, a DJIA of around 4000 (less than half its current value), and possibly a global famine caused by the inability of farmers to borrow money to purchase fertilizer. We're basically looking at Great Depression II.

money.cnn.com

This is just the beginning, and the problems in the automotive industry are puny compared to the problems that are coming. Hope you enjoyed your life to this point; it's about to get much, much worse.

Well, the Bushs seem to want regulations which favor the Bushs. The Kennedys seem to push for legislation to help the masses.

Helping the masses has nothing to do with how those "masses" will vote and gaining & keeping power I'm sure. You're missing the point! All rich people are not evil & they shouldn't be demonized as they are! Not all poor people are victims of more than their own poor choices. Class warfare does everyone a disservice by making broad sweeps and assumptions designed to incite emotion to further an agenda. If you assume that it is ok to drive up taxes on the rich just because they're rich the same way you assume that all poor & middle class stagnate because of someone's holding them back, then you are too far gone already. How many of the poor spend money they don't have on things they don't need only to have their needs met by social services that could better go to people who actually NEED them? How many in the middle class live above their means? I have concern for my fellow Americans and my family is struggling too. It is equally irresponsible for a person to operate selfishly with no thought as to the consequences as would be for a corporation or the wealthy to indulge in the same behavior. Counting chickens before they hatch has proven the death of businesses, neighborhoods, and families right before our very eyes in the very recent past and pretty much forever. This practice has been participated in by all, not just the evil rich & big business. It serves the poor & middle class not at all by denying that fact.

JUST ANNOUNCED...White house willing to allow bailout to come from the money Treasury already has.....GM saved!!!

"How many of you die hard labor supporters own American cars? just curious to see how many hypocrites are on here
#98 | Posted by chlorinehair5 at 2008-12-12 12:13 PM"

A valid question. Without being "cute", just what IS an American car (see link):

edition.cnn.com

"Class warfare does everyone a disservice by making broad sweeps and assumptions designed to incite emotion to further an agenda. "

Then...you wouldn't mind reversing the tax cuts for the wealthiest?

When are the poor going to start paying their share of the taxes. They are freeloaders

"When are the poor going to start paying their share of the taxes."

They do.

When ALL taxes are factored, each of the five quintiles pay about 17%-21% of their incomes in taxes.

When are the poor going to start paying their share of the taxes. They are freeloaders

#112 | Posted by timbci

When overpaid and unneeded whiners like you provide a fair day's work for a fair day's pay?

Get to work, sonny!

There is no such thing as being overpaid. I am underpaid if anything. Last year when I got my bonus I got a 10% raise but I wanted 20%. This year bonuses will be low because too many uneducated middle class factory workers welched on their mortgages

Then...you wouldn't mind reversing the tax cuts for the wealthiest?

If we reversed them on everyone. I think everyone pays too much in taxes. Why not equal percentages for everyone? It can't be helped that say, 10% of $100,000 is more than 10% of $50,000 can it? It would solve everyone's problem about "fairness". Better yet, how about scrapping the tax code altogether and coming up with a better plan? Or even better yet, starving the Government Beast of its financial meal & trimming the fat altogether? I'm trying to educate myself more on this Fair Tax. It sounds like a winner but I'm a skeptic who thinks if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. What are your thoughts? How should we make everything "fair"?

Maybe we are helping the wrong Companies...

Fewer than half of the parts on some Big Three vehicles are made in the U.S.

Looking at a Ford Fusion? It is assembled in Mexico. The Chrysler 300C is assembled in Canada, but its transmission is from Indiana; the brand's V-8 engine is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox sport utility vehicle are from China.

On the other hand, Toyota's Camry is comprised 80 percent of parts made in the United States, and 56 percent of Toyota's vehicles sold in the U.S. also are made here, according to Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon.

www.cnn.com

"I think everyone pays too much in taxes."

You can stop there.

We're running the largest deficits known to man since the dawn of time.

...btw, the "Fair Tax" is for idiots who don't understand basic math.


"How many of you die hard labor supporters own American cars? just curious to see how many hypocrites are on here
#98 | Posted by chlorinehair5 at 2008-12-12 12:13 PM"

A valid question. Without being "cute", just what IS an American car (see link):

edition.cnn.com

#110 | Posted by TrueBlue at 2008-12-12 01:39 PM

good point ... cars where the money stays in the US. Thanks for the link. I think the point to take home is that a Big three car supports more jobs in the US even if the labor to build the car is domestic.

My question was aimed at the "Free trade is killing America, but I buy stuff made in china because its cheap, and I'd buy a Chevy buy my Japanese car is better" They are almost as bad as the "Save the Planet" people who drive a minivan to cart their kids around and don't recycle because it takes too much effort

Its not paying the taxes that yanks my chain so much as what the hell are we getting in return? I mean, really? Deficits, surpluses, it never seems to matter in the day to day life of the regular American from where I sit? Do you expect BO to do any better with the ass-load of spending he has lined up & all of the expensive promises he can't possibly keep? Congress is a train-wreck & we just put the same losers back in power for the most part. Are there any politicians currently in power that plan to spend less & live within their (our) means?

Also, please explain the Fair Tax comment? As I said, I'm learning and would like to know why you think that?

"Deficits, surpluses, it never seems to matter"

The surpluses were pissed away.

As far as the deficits...keep watching. It'll 'matter' soon enough.


Maybe we are helping the wrong Companies...

Fewer than half of the parts on some Big Three vehicles are made in the U.S.

Looking at a Ford Fusion? It is assembled in Mexico. The Chrysler 300C is assembled in Canada, but its transmission is from Indiana; the brand's V-8 engine is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox sport utility vehicle are from China.

On the other hand, Toyota's Camry is comprised 80 percent of parts made in the United States, and 56 percent of Toyota's vehicles sold in the U.S. also are made here, according to Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon.

www.cnn.com

#117 | Posted by wisgod at 2008-12-12 03:27 PM

Thats funny I read that article and took away the exact opposite.

From the Article:
" The key difference in how the Big Three and foreign brands support jobs in the U.S. comes outside the factories, according to a 2006 study by the Level Field Institute, a group formed by Big Three retirees in Washington.

"What's driving the difference in jobs ... is investment in research, design, engineering and management," Level Field President Jim Doyle said in a statement on the 2006 study.

The Center for Automotive Research said the Big Three had 24,000 engineers on U.S. payrolls in 2007. The Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association said its member companies had 3,500 U.S. research and development employees in 2007.

Level Field found that every 1,000 vehicles sold by Detroit's Big Three in the U.S. support more than twice as many jobs as 1,000 vehicles sold by foreign nameplates."

Steve Forbes supports the Fair Tax. Danforth perhaps when you write editorials for a major business news magazine your opinion will carry some weight

Well, it seems Bush id going to bail out the big 3 after all...

www.nytimes.com

#119 | Posted by chlorinehair5 at 2008-12-12 03:39 PM

I understand what you're driving at (no pun).

As for myself, I drive a Ford Escort but it's possible I "should" have gotten a Toyota in order to better support US industry. Whoda thunk.

Whoda thunk.

The ones that shoulda thunk are the US auto makers, who 35 years ago thought foreign cars were some kind of joke.

chlorinehair5, I thought his point was that the part's manufactured for the cars are higher for Toyota. And I think he is talking about indiect manufacturerers. I.E. Tool & die and fab shops that supply the automakers.

good file chapter 11!!

"please explain the Fair Tax comment"

1. Their contention of 23% is what all of us already know as 30%: If something costs $100, the new price, with the fair tax, is $130. That's not considered a 23% rate anywhere else in accounting or economics, that's a 30% rate. The first warning about a boondoggle is when the authors have to make up their own definitions. The originators found 30% wasn't palatable, but 23% was, so they rearranged the math and used a formula no one else gets to use.

2. They plan to tax everything. Mortgages, doctor visits, everything. And their models assume over 20% of costs are associated with tax and compliance issues, which I find ludicrous. Also. instead of the income tax 1040s to fill out, the doctor's office will have to fill out some other form explaining to the government just how much was taken in and how much is owed, and there will still have to be a collection and enforcement arm, etc, so we'll essentially be trading one bureaucracy for another.

3. They also plan to tax...get this: intra-government services! So add an additional 20% to the cost of running the government, just so the government can make some more money!

4. They pretend employment taxes (SS, Med, Unemp) cease to exist, and won't have to be collected.

5. They don't begin to account for State or Local income taxes, which would also add to the price.

And ultimately, they ignore the BIG point: no politician has any advantage in showing the taxpayer all the taxes on one bill.

There is a big difference between now and 35 years ago. 35 years ago Toyota was using design and manufacturing practices that were pioneering techniques in the quality control and reliability fields. Gone are the days when you can expect to find beer cans and cigarette butts stuck in door panels and your dashboard.

But yes 35 years ago the Big 3 had their heads up their asses.

No one buys a foreign car because it's cheaper. Its a myth.

I don't know why the big 3 can't or wont sell their European small cars here. A Eurozone Focus is not the piece of crap we sell here. They claim the can't make money on them.

It's the management mentality that people pick a car solely on price. They cut corners on quality and appearance to save a few pennys per car. It's ridiculous.

"Do you expect BO to do any better with the ass-load of spending he has lined up & all of the expensive promises he can't possibly keep? "

I don't expect this new President to have two nickels to rub together. Especially since he's inherited the onset of a Depression. Those who feared wild social programs can relax: we won't be able to afford them.

chlorinehair5, I thought his point was that the part's manufactured for the cars are higher for Toyota. And I think he is talking about indiect manufacturerers. I.E. Tool & die and fab shops that supply the automakers.

#127 | Posted by wisgod at 2008-12-12 04:00 PM

from the article: "Level Field found that every 1,000 vehicles sold by Detroit's Big Three in the U.S. support more than twice as many jobs as 1,000 vehicles sold by foreign nameplates."

Even if 80% of the parts from a japanese car are made here and its assembled here. The 3 years of design and R&D and development and testing occurred overseas

it would be really interesting to see the full breakdown of cost for a vehicle.

"...btw, the "Fair Tax" is for idiots who don't understand basic math."

and Billionaires like Steve Forbes.

"This year bonuses will be low because too many uneducated middle class factory workers welched on their mortgages"

They wouldn't have had mortgages if some educated, white collar bull shit artist hadn't approved the loan. If I loan someone money who doesn't have the ability to pay it back I'm the one responsible. Unless someone held a gun to my head and I don't remember any bankers having guns pointed at their heads.

"They wouldn't have had mortgages if some educated, white collar bull shit artist hadn't approved the loan. If I loan someone money who doesn't have the ability to pay it back I'm the one responsible. Unless someone held a gun to my head and I don't remember any bankers having guns pointed at their heads."

Danni, I hardly (read as almost never) agree with you but this is a rare exception, at least partially. You are forgetting that there was a lot of pressure for banks to loan to unqualified (by traditional standards) Not to mention the Bush administration crammmed the merits of home ownershit up our collective asses. Of course The banks created a mechanism so that they could make money up front on the fees and then get the home back after the home owner defaults on the loan. As long as home values continue to increase the home buyer can A) lose the home to the bank and the bank gets a higher value asset) or B) refinance, pay new fees and continue the cycle. Yeah pretty dumb idea, but it worked in the short term.

The borrower still bears some responsibility I mean I do remember signing 1000 pages of crap when buying my house. I'm not a lawyer, but I think I understood that I was signing papers that made me responsible for paying an agreed upon amount every month for the next 30 years.

So in summary some sociology major thought that things would be better if everyone had equal results in life and had a RIGHT to own their own home. And then some management major played along and made up some scheme to make money off an unsustainable system. This is why business majors and liberal arts majors are worthless.

This whole problem could have been avoided by a little common sense.

Home buyer: "I want to own a McMansion, but I have no savings and only make 40K per year"
Bank: "Sorry rent for a few more years, save your money and come back"

"Steve Forbes supports the Fair Tax. Danforth perhaps when you write editorials for a major business news magazine your opinion will carry some weight"

#123 | Posted by timbci at 2008-12-12 03:50 PM | Reply | Flag: Delusionally believes his opinions even matter, much less carry weight

Yep, union busting trumps the national interest. Unless you happen to beleive union busting is in the national interest. -Doc

So many of you here use the term union busting as if it's a bad thing. In some cases it is a very good thing. The way it's turning out maybe we will all see that a busting up of UAW is the best thing that could happen to the car companies.

When 62% support gay marriage and current laws are reversed then you will make that same post and assert that the will is worthless because most believe in angels visiting earth?

#14 | Posted by eberly

uhhh no, that's how the libs react when legislation doesn't go their way. If prop 8 would not have passed you wouldn't have heard one bitch from someone on the right about it being unfair. They may say they don't like the outcome but they won't be protesting in the streets to have a vote changed. This I can guarantee.

The destruction of the nation?
He's done a heckuva job so far.
So I think you're probably right that he's up to the task.

#24 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I see no destruction of this country. Where is it? How do I find it? If you're talking about the recession, well to be honest, we don't even feel it here in Texas. Business has been really good and hasn't slowed one bit. People are still buying all over.

If you are refering to another form of destruction I'd like to know what you mean by it. Don't ya think destruction of the nation is a bit melodramatic?

They play dangerous games over ideological points but just as the recession we are now enjoying was not expected by them they still caused it and still get the credit for it.-Danni

Danni, do you just make stuff up as you go? Do you just write things because they sound good to you? The problem we are in is closely tied together with Fannie May and Freddie Mac. An organization that was conceived by democrats and is run by democrats. Do you recall all of those loans they gave out to get lower income families into a house, even though they couldn't afford it? They trashed the credit markets almost single handedly, although they did have help.

But, for you to aver so matter of factly that the republicans alone caused this mess, and they did it on purpose in your mind, is one big giant lie.

How many of you die hard labor supporters own American cars? just curious to see how many hypocrites are on here

#98 | Posted by chlorinehair5

I'm against the bailout but I drive an American car. Mustang GT.

I'm for the bailout and against the obstructionism of certain Southern senators who represent states where my Toyota and my Honda were probably made.

"You are forgetting that there was a lot of pressure for banks to loan to unqualified"

Pressure, schmessure. Didn't these guys and gals graduate b-school? Weren't they supposed to know better? Every other place in society we hold people responsible for their signature. Why not here?

Okey dokey.

Now who can we blame for the collapse of the financial organizations?

The Union?

Common people, the UAW may not be competetive, but it isn't what put these big 3 in the shitter.

Greed did it.
1.Making them big thirsty cars and trucks.
2.Not saving enough and investing properly.

This shit didn't just happen last week. They knew this was comming for some time now and decided to ask for sommat corporate welfare thats being handed out in DC.


How many of you die hard labor supporters own American cars? just curious to see how many hypocrites are on here

#98 | Posted by chlorinehair5

I'm against the bailout but I drive an American car. Mustang GT.

#139 | Posted by everlong at 2008-12-12 06:48 PM

Me too. 2006 Tungsten Grey ... and I love every bit of my 18mpg carbon footprint.


"You are forgetting that there was a lot of pressure for banks to loan to unqualified"

Pressure, schmessure. Didn't these guys and gals graduate b-school? Weren't they supposed to know better? Every other place in society we hold people responsible for their signature. Why not here?

#141 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-12-12 07:51 PM

You are right they should have known better.

It's funny that you mention the signature ... I'm almost sure that both parties had to sign the loan. I'm not happy with the bailout. Paulson basically gave his buddies money to buy other banks. Tax payer money, its almost like theft.

There is certainly enough blame to go around, the lenders for over leveraging, total lack of regulation ... even encouragement to make these risky loans, lets not let Greenspan off the hook. He kept rate lows. I just don't understand why you want to let the borrower off the hook. I'm sorry but if you are too dumb to understand that your rate will adjust to a higher rate at some point in the future and that will mean your payment increase then you probably shouldnt have been buying a home.

F#CK all of them, there are millions of home owners, the majority of them who got sensible loans, make their payments on time, live within their means, and we are all going to get a big FU.

"I just don't understand why you want to let the borrower off the hook. I'm sorry but if you are too dumb to understand that your rate will adjust to a higher rate at some point in the future and that will mean your payment increase then you probably shouldnt have been buying a home. "

I don't want to let the borrower off the hook. And the borrower isn't getting off the hook: any equity in their down payment or house is now gone. But in the business of loans, those who loan money assume the risk (and get the rewards, let's not forget). The onus is on THEM to make sensible loans. Why should it be the taxpayers fault these rich guys didn't do their jobs properly?

But the mortgage hot-shots found a way to repackage all the bad debt and re-sell them. They figured they'd collect all these up-front fees and be down the road before anyone found out what shitty risks they took.

"I'm sorry but if you are too dumb to understand that your rate will adjust to a higher rate at some point in the future and that will mean your payment increase then you probably shouldnt have been buying a home. "

Who are you talking to...the borrower or the lender? Again, look at the lending business. All risk--and all reward--is on the backs of the lenders.

I think we actually agree here. I don't see why we have to subsidize the private sector losses, either. But, the hot-shots were just playing by the rules at the time. Unless there was Enron style accounting going on here, we did have illegal behavior it was just shortsighted greed. How did the smartest guys in the room expect home prices to increase 30% every year forever?

Where was regulation? Isn't that the role of government regulation? People were warning about the collapse for at least the last 8 years.

But, you kid yourselves if you think the home buyer is innocent in this. If the next $350B is spent, I'll bet a good portion of it goes to renegotiate home loan terms, with a reduction in principal at the tax payers' expense

**we didn't have illegal behavior** we need an edit function on this board

"But, the hot-shots were just playing by the rules at the time. "

And therein lies another central problem: I remember reading where the lenders were coming up with schemes faster than the government could regulate them, and I thought WTF?!? Why isn't it the other way around, where no new instruments are allowable until approved?

"Where was regulation? Isn't that the role of government regulation? People were warning about the collapse for at least the last 8 years. "

Well there were 6 of those where one party controlled all three branches of government. What did they do or not do while in control?

"But, you kid yourselves if you think the home buyer is innocent in this."

Well, if you could read, you'd know I don't. But I DO put the larger blame on the guys who assumed the risk/reward and should have known better. Instead, they greedily ignored all the lessons of Business school. And then they leveraged bad paper against bad paper; Lehman was leveraged 100-1. Do you think the problem was with the "1" or the "100"?

I can read, and I can do math, and I can think for myself too. (stop being a condescending ass)

I'm not cheer leading for the Bush administration. A large part of the problem was their belief that everyone had a right to home ownership. There is was an easy fix to this. A) Banks can't leveraged over a certain ratio B) Banks can't lend to people with below a certain credit rating. The Europeans bought into this myth that everyone had a right to a home. They also relaxed lending standards.

I also view think most business majors are math/science/engineering students who couldn't real math.

This is a pretty good explanation of the credit crisis.

www.businesspundit.com

Earlier someone posted an article claiming that the $73 per hour derived union UAW wage was somehow inappropriate, or at least incorrect. In response, I offer this. I am a mid-level Air Force Captain with 9.5 years of service. Assuming a 40 hour work week, my wages and benefits (as estimated by the Air Force) amount to about $45 per hour. Since I am a salaried employee, the actual hours I work each week may be as much as 30% higher, meaning the value of my hourly benefits would be much lower. I hold both graduate and undergraduate degrees, in addition to the flight training I received through the Air Force. As a consumer, the UAW employees are worth market wage rate, which for unskilled labor is much less than $75 per hour. As a taxpayer I think the deserve even less. I have to wonder if the pro-union types would approve of retail chains colluding to keep prices high, using coercion to reduce competition. "We know that milk and bread cost a quarter as much the next town over, but if you want to buy in this town, you are going to have to pay what we charge." Anyone who has ever taken an econ class knows that engaging in price setting always encourages the entry of new competitors, and given the choice between buying the same product at a higher or lower price, consumers will always choose the lower. The reason? Consumers don't care about paying arbitrarily high wages for labor that is marginally valuable. If they did, they would willingly be paying far more for their fast food and wal mart trinkets.

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