Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, December 10, 2008

The White House and leading congressional Democrats have reached an agreement on legislation to provide a $14 billion stopgap bailout to U.S. automakers, according to officials from the administration and Congress.

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Funny. I thought it was Detroit and America that got the deal.

When the Republican Senators, especially Shelbey from Alabama, came out against this plan, wanting a tougher plan, I was watching local TV, big mistake. Their tone of shocked indignation and sense of entitlement makes me believe that the local newspeople here are journalism school flunkies. They are supposed to not take sides, yet all they did was whine and complain about souther Republican Senators. They villafy Senator Shelbey so much that is it shameful and outright disgusting. They came this close to accusing him of eating puppies for breakfast and of being a Devil Worshipper. Unbelievable.

In addition, there is a good for nothing ex GM engineer who has this stupid website encouraging people to boycott Alabama.

Instead of using Shelbey and Alabama as distractions for our problems, how about if Michigan Lawmakers travel to Alabama to learn how they attracted so much foreign investment? That would be nice.

If it was up to me, I would not support any bailout until the union ripped up their contracts

timbci, I agree. I think a National Right to Work Law should be attached to this auto bailout. That would be great, getting the UAW off of Michigan's back, we wouldn't have 9.3% unemployment anymore, companies would want to come here.

Oh good. That should keep the lights on for another 30 days.

"I would not support any bailout until the union ripped up their contracts"

So let me get this straight: bankers were inept and violated the business school principles of sound lending, so we have to cover their mistakes, and now auto business owners admit they're inept running the business and want the taxpayers to cover their mistakes...

...and the problem is the only group who lived up to their promises?!?

What gets me is that any retired UAW worker has a equal vote on any contract concessions that the Union may make. What incentive would they have to vote for any concession?

No the problem is the fact that organized labor gives the middle class a voice in negotiations and ruins the ability of upper management to screw over the worker.

Sorry but UAW workers are not middle class. they may think they are but they make way too much money to ever be middle class

So let me get this straight: bankers were inept and violated the business school principles of sound lending, so we have to cover their mistakes, and now auto business owners admit they're inept running the business and want the taxpayers to cover their mistakes...


...and the problem is the only group who lived up to their promises?!?

First of all, mortage brokers are not bankers. Some may work for a bank but don't ever confuse the two. Often Mortgage Brokers are just slick guys who can sell on the phone and they have a nice suit. Secondly, the bank lived up to their promises. They loaned the money. The problem is that too many people accepted the loan knowing they could never repay it. they should be prosecuted for fraud and sued in civil court


Sorry but UAW workers are not middle class. they may think they are but they make way too much money to ever be middle class

#9 | Posted by timbci

Bwahahahahahaha.

God forbid one worker should be able to support a family of 4 without food stamps.

I grew up in the Detroit area. Autoworkers are middle class. Period.

Some would like to propose middle class is clearing below the poverty rate for a family of four?

So let me get this straight: bankers were inept and violated the business school principles of sound lending, so we have to cover their mistakes, and now auto business owners admit they're inept running the business and want the taxpayers to cover their mistakes...

#6 | Posted by Danforth

Would bailing out detroit make up for the mistake of bailing out wall street?

"Would bailing out detroit make up for the mistake of bailing out wall street?"

Didn't we bail out Wall Street so they could loan money to folks like Detroit?

Besides, what does that have to do with the fact management makes about 99% of the decisions?

$1.55 trillion cash bailout of wealthy gamblers. Completed in one round with NO CONDITIONS. Furthermore the amounts and recipients are secret. No one has any idea how much liability has been transfered to taxpayers who unwillingly purchased trillions in junk paper.

$25-34 billion requested bailout of Big-3 Automakers. Conditional $15 billion put together after much kicking an screaming. In fact the Senate is threatening to filibuster the Big-3 after quietly providing the Oligarchy every cent they previously demanded.

The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

Why? Because without foriegn lenders, our Government cannot operate.

Member-there's a discussion about spending another 90 billion (6 times the motown bailout) on more 132,000,000 a pop F-22s in spite of their non-need and dubious functionality. Those same southern Senators are all over how it would be bad for the gummint to not fund the planes and make people lose their jobs, especially since the planes are built in Georgia. Funny that...


What gets me is that any retired UAW worker has a equal vote on any contract concessions that the Union may make. What incentive would they have to vote for any concession?

They also recognize that current workers protected their retirement packages for them. The UAW just took over GMs retirement bennie program. Most will vote to keep their friends and(often) kids or grandkids working.

Why is it always the right that wants to fuck over the Unions and subsequently the average worker. If it weren't for the greedy fuckers on the right we wouldn't have so many God damned problems. But yety they don't want to sacrifice their bloated wallets for the common good they want the average worker to suffer. I say fuck that and fuck them.

Larry

"What incentive would they have to vote for any concession?"

They see what happens when the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation takes over: 40%-60% of the promised payout.

(And that 40%-60% is despite the fact the PBGC is bankrupt, and expected to become even more insolvent as more companies go belly up, so the percentage could one day be seen as generous.)

I say fuck that and fuck them.


Larry

#17 | Posted by LarryMohr

Why is everyone on the right a greedy fucker? I'm in as much economic trouble as anyone on the Left. I question this based on the chance it has for success. Many on the right didn't think the bank bailout was the right thing to do. And believe it or not, I have compassion for those who may lose their jobs. I just think it's a shitty, halfassed plan but together by carreer politicians on both sides of the aisle who don't have a fucking clue how to solve the problem, other than writing a check. Those assholes in Washington learned nothing from Katrina.

Because it's the people on the Right who look down upon the average worker and castigate Unions who help secure the average workers rights. You on the right don't give a fuck about the average worker when You do things like that. Hence My disdain for the right wingers.

Larry

The plan would create a government "car czar," to be named by President George W. Bush to dole out the loans, with the power to force the carmakers into bankruptcy next spring if they didn't cut quick deals with labor unions, creditors and others to restructure their businesses and become viable.

Are you sure you still support this bailout?

I believe GM lost $56 Billion in 07? If we bail them out we'll just be doing this again next year.

Let them file bankruptcy and reorganize.

Had Paulson and Bush had their way the bailout plan would have been it's original 3 pages long - with no oversight or rules on how the money was to be doled out.

As it is, those financial companies bailed out are not using their bailout money to shore up mortgages nor loan money, as was the bailout's intent.

Instead, they're using the money for acquisitions of other financial entities. No mention of bringing any one of those companies to bankruptcy court. But, God, let it be 3,000,000 American's jobs at stake and it's a different ballgame. Must be because they presume all autoworkers vote Democrat.

Wow.


Because it's the people on the Right who look down upon the average worker and castigate Unions who help secure the average workers rights. You on the right don't give a fuck about the average worker when You do things like that. Hence My disdain for the right wingers.


Larry

#20 | Posted by LarryMohr

Maybe you don't consider the fact that there are a lot of people who beleive the unions have become too powerful and many of them are crooked. You think that just because some on the right are against unions that they are against the worker and that is just not true. Look at it this way. We support the workers just not the unions. Sort of like you support the soldiers just not the war.

Yeah Larry. And you can thank the Teachers Union for my total mistrust the Union big-wigs who control these poor sods.

Maybe you don't consider the fact that there are a lot of people who beleive the unions have become too powerful and many of them are crooked. You think that just because some on the right are against unions that they are against the worker and that is just not true. Look at it this way. We support the workers just not the unions. Sort of like you support the soldiers just not the war.

What bull shit.

Unions are now down to 12% but this idiot still thinks they are too powerful.

Yesterday we already established that the right will not think to take action until our poverty looks like that of india or malasia.

What a sad sack of shit.

No requirement to make smaller, more fuel-efficient cars using current technology.

No requirement to stand behind their designs and assembly quality better, ending "silent recalls."

No requirement to stop saturating affluent areas with unnecessary dealerships.

No requirement to pay dealer technicians for the time they actually spend on warranty repairs, instead of paying for the time the manufacturer thinks a repair should take.

No requirement to stop outsourcing parts and assembly to other countries.

Just a vague, difficult-to-enforce mandate to "restructure."

Good-bye, Detroit. And by next year, good-bye $14 billion dollars.

I just find it interesting that so much ignorance is pushed by the right as to unions. People like wisgod have never belong to a union or ever had to deal with a union but certainly pretend they know all about em.

Just look at the history of the unions and as our mainstreet economy declines is directly proportional to the decline of the unions.

People like wisgod have never belong to a union or ever had to deal with a union but certainly pretend they know all about em.


Just look at the history of the unions and as our mainstreet economy declines is directly proportional to the decline of the unions.

#28 | Posted by moneywar

I've yet to hear you offer a solution. All you've done is to tell every poster who opposes this how stupid they are. If you are for a 19B dollar hadout, cut 3 ways, fine. But stop calling those of us stupid who question the expenditure.

No requirement to make smaller, more fuel-efficient cars using current technology.

No wonder the US auto manufacturers are having difficulty, such ignorance keeps being pushed by so many who don't actually know what the hell they are talking about.

The western US media has done a great job at sinking the US auto industry.

And btw moneywar, you know bupkis about me or my business. You'd be damned surprised if you did.

Wisgod,

Have not seen you refute my assertion and you are not posting against the bailout you are trashing the union as if it is the fault when you don't actually know shit or learned any of the facts of what you spout.

Stick with the bailout and stop trying to push blame where you know nothing.

I am not for the bail out per say, it will do nothing as to the auto problem until the foreign trade is corrected.

I say fuck that and fuck them.
Larry

#17 | Posted by LarryMohr

Ironically, this is exactly what i think about just about everything.

Member, you are spot-on about Senator Shelby. There's not much to love about the republicans these days, but if you read his opinions, he has been right all along. He was against every single bail-out.

Shelby is the ranking repub on the senate banking committee, Bushco never sought or listened to his advice. Even if the stupidest man in the world were president, he would care what his party's ranking banking guy had to say.

The irony is that the people in alabama, that work in the car industry, are saying, 'what recession', and that's not because they are all stupid, it's because their job is good and they work for companies that care about the product.

You know how Alabama got those companies? They made such attractive offers to the companies. Tax breaks, training, tax-free this and that. By every business matrix you can think of, it is considered a fabulous success.








GM is such a sick company they should move to illinois and become a corruption factory.

Not so fast:

Auto rescue bill in peril, opposed by GOP senators

Money,

I was in a Union for about 2 weeks. I quit and went to a non-union shop. I got tired of being told when I had to take lunch I got tired of being the low man on the totem pole just cause I was new to the Union despite having more experiance in the business than half the other people at the shop who were all better paid than me.

I am sure my Union experiance is not the same as everyone's and just because my shop leader was a moron does not mean all Unions are run by idiots.

However other than those 2 weeks I have never been in a Union yet have been able to work my way up on my own. If an employer does not compensate me equal to what I am worth I move on. Suprisingly enough I very rarely switch jobs. When an employee has to show the employer how valuable they are to get raises both sides win. The company doesn't dare loose me and so my salary reflects that. I don't dare loose that sweet salary so I work my ass off. We both win. If I could have gotten the same pay just for time served would I have been nearly as motivated? If the company did not feal I was that valuable would they treat me so well?

Auto bill opposed by GOP senators:

Once again the republicans show just how anti-american they truely can be.

Republicans should be all rounded up and put in jail for treason.

They don't like the bill to help AMERICAN auto companies because they want to give FOREIGN auto companies a bigger advantage. Talk about a lack of patriotism from the republican leadership.

Talk about a lack of patriotism from the republican leadership.

#36 | Posted by moneywar

If you dig a bit deeper, you'll find a fair amount of Democrat opposition.

I was in a Union for about 2 weeks.

LOL! You have formulated an opinion over a bad incident.

Give me a break.

Thats rich coming from the guy who formed an opinion on Republican Leadership after 4 fucking minutes.

Wisgod,

It is just those who are trying to pander to the toyota and such in their district. What is funny is I understand trying to support there district but their district is not the problem and in so why would they not put on their American hat.

Where their money comes from is definitely showing republicans are not there for America but for the money.

Dave (AKA cheapskate), hows the beer holding out?

What fucking diffrence does it make if a car company is run by GM or Toyota? they pay thier wages and taxes. and americans buy the product.

this 'save the american auto industry' is a bunch of shit. the american auto industry is 'they who know how to build autos'.

"The irony is that the people in alabama, that work in the car industry, are saying, 'what recession', and that's not because they are all stupid, it's because their job is good and they work for companies that care about the product."

Never mind that Alabama spent billions to lure those auto manufacturers to their state, as much as $200,000. per job. So it is beyond hypocritical now for Shebly to pontificate about government money going to the auto makers. Do the math, if you spent as much as Alabama did to bring auto jobs to their state on bailing out the big three you'd have 450 billion to play with. Shelby is a grandstanding asshole who is trying to use this issue to propel himself into national prominence. He doesn't give a whit about 3 million jobs being at stake because none of those three million can vote for him. If they were from Alabama he'd be whining louder than anyone for the bailout bucks.

Lip,

Well, one would think that American companies would have a vested interest in America but that simple concept seems to have eluded most of you republicans, talking about being spiteful.

Why should the government bail them out. Let file Chapter 11 and renegotiate their contracts.

Is anyone even buying new cars now when the rest of the jobs and economy are tanking?

This country is falling apart. Houses are being lost daily, credit crunch is everywhere. Why the Auto industry???

Maybe Honda should get some money too. They built a 500 million plant in Indiana.

Lured by $29 million in state incentives, the Toyota Motor Corporation plans to build its first V8 engine factory outside Japan in Huntsville, Ala. The $220 million factory, which will employ about 350 people, will make 120,000 engines annually for the North American-built Tundra pickup truck, company and state officials said yesterday. Toyota plans to begin production in the summer of 2003. Two other foreign automakers, Mercedes-Benz and Honda, have plants in Alabama. The incentives include $13.6 million for training programs and $15 million in tax benefits.

This article is from 2001....Right after Bush took over...hmmmm

Wow-Who would have thought that the Red (Patriotic) State of Alabama would screw the US working class automakers by offering incentives to ....Toyota?

Union busting is what Republicans live for. No benefits for employees, only world-wind profits for shareholders, CEOs and CFOs.


Oh so patriotic

...mortage brokers are not bankers. Some may work for a bank but don't ever confuse the two. --

Mortgage brokers weren't the biggest part of the problem. The bankers (investment firms) who securitized the mortages, the insurers who evaded insurance regulations when they sold credit default swaps, and the banks who are leveraged at about 30-1 (Lehman, Citi, etc. etc.) are the worst of the bunch.

The problem is that too many people accepted the loan knowing they could never repay it. they should be prosecuted for fraud and sued in civil court. -- #10 | Posted by timbci

Sue the bankers first. Remember, we're bailing them out because otherwise, they would not be able pay their short-term debts and so would have to declare bankruptcy. They're professionals who know better than to leverage 30-1 -- ask Greenspan.

"Union busting is what Republicans live for."

And the folks in Alabama cheer them on because they have what they consider to be good jobs, right now....these fools are too stupid to realize that when you bust the UAW the trickle down of labor surplus will hurt them too. When a working man thinks his place is on the same side of these issues as the wealthy, who hate unions, he/she is naive at best, just dumb as a rock more likely.

"Unemployment insurance is a pre-paid vacation for freeloaders."
California Governor Ronald Reagan, in the Sacramento Bee, April 28, 1966

When are some of you going to pry your heads out of your rectums, and figure out that this is not a R vs. D issue?

Danni,

You and money keep saying that, however most of these people live in right to work states. They are not benifiting from the union at all. Well other than all the companies that flee union states and come to right to work states.

Actualy now that I think about it hell yeah for the Unions! The unions keep my state economy growing faster than the national average.

Oh so patriotic

#46 | Posted by ArmyVet


Like I said, all of the incentives have more than paid for themselves already and the companies are still young.

hey ding-a-ling, alabamians are americans too. they are working and paying taxes. They are working at these factories and they love 'em.

They'll spank you little flag waving ass if you go try to take their jobs.

You guys are just mad because your state is too fucking stupid to understand the basic rules of business. alabama's economy is booming, how's your state doing?

Wow-Who would have thought that the Red (Patriotic) State of Alabama would screw the US working class automakers by offering incentives to ....Toyota?

The libs hate the red states because of who they vote for. They hate the red states because they know how to draw industry and help keep their citizens employed.

"Well other than all the companies that flee union states and come to right to work states."

Duh!! the companies close factories in union states and reopen in scab states. Like it takes a genius to figure that out. But don't worry, when they kill off the UAW watch the wages in the "right-to-work-for-nothing" states drop like a rock.
Y'all need to remember one clear fact, without unions none of the working and middle class people who post here would make over $5.00 per hour. Why would any employer pay more if they could destroy our ONLY tool to bargain with them.
BAsicly, outsourcing is just moving jobs to right-to-work countries. Like I said before, "right-to-work-for-nothing."
Blame the American worker for achieving a high standard of living that requires an income higher than the poorest nation or state, that's right wing logic. I understand the rich that think that way, just not those who aren't rich.

"The libs hate the red states because of who they vote for. They hate the red states because they know how to draw industry and help keep their citizens employed."

That explains why most red states are net recipients of federal money while those evil blue states are paying the bills. Seems higher wages in blue states are required so that the taxes will be enough to enable the red states to work for such low wages.

Well, Lip just helped flush Moneywar, Danni and Larry's partisian arguement down the shitter.

But don't worry, when they kill off the UAW watch the wages in the "right-to-work-for-nothing" states drop like a rock

You mean they might drop down to what their fellow citizens with comparable skills make? Heaven forbid!

RepubliCreeps continued the intense anti-american, anti-middle class ranting today in the Senate.

As always with RepubliCrooks, $100s of billions for IRAQ contracts-to-kill with Zero accountability, zero bid, zero plans for "victory", timetable or end game required, zero reports, zero metrics - all demanded in blank checks worth $trillions to benefit contributors.

As always with RepubliCons, $100s of billions demanded by only 3 pages by Bush, approved within a week with zero accountability, zero plans, explanations, hearings, milestones, metrics or real oversight.

Yet, these fucking bastards demand our Nations greatest Manufacturers in history to crawl, drive, beg, grovel for LOANS worth less than the fuckers LOST in IRAQ with No explanation ever discussed, demanded or required...!??

Makes me furious to see the RepuliConArtists constantly hate AMERICAN Workers and middle class .... Obviously..!!


LOL!

I just have to laugh at this.

This has nothing to do with red states, toyota or unions but it is interesting that you think getting rid of the US auto somehow shows how those red states are better.

Talk about narrow minded idiots.

"You guys are just mad because your state is too fucking stupid to understand the basic rules of business. alabama's economy is booming"

That probably explains why in 2004 they received $1.53 back for every $1.00 they paid in to income taxes.
Alabama is a state that virtually never emerged from the last Great REpublican Depression of 1929, and now has a gimmer or hope from foreign auto makers looking for cheap labor. Their own citizens wouldn't work for the wages they pay folks in Alabama. To them, Alabama is a third world country.

Who, in the name of the Honda Accord, has posted that they want to get "rid" of the U.S.Auto Industry? Re-org, sure.

Gee, gunner, can we anticipate another witty post where you will showcase all your clever inflections of the word 'Republican'?

Fuck you, Danni.
Sincerely, Lynyrd Skynyrd

Red states are winning in the race to the bottom.
Congratulations. YOu win????

Right-to-work-for-nothing slogan...."will work for less.

piss off Republitard

"In Birmingham we love the governor"

everything you ever wanted to know about Lynard Skynrd is contained in that one line.

Non-Union autoworker wages (Detroit's starting out new hires at $14 an hour):

$15 an hour X 40 hours = $600

Now, take out roughly 30% for taxes

$420 a week - $1680 a month.

Forget about a family of four living on that. Priced any even one bedroom apartments lately? They start at $650 around here in the South unless you want to live in a dump.

They surely can't afford a new version of one of the cars they make

Right-to-work-for-nothing slogan...."will work for less.

And you wonder why the right to work states get more industry?

What's better Danni -- working for less or not working at all?


Hey Goat, how about directing that anger where it belongs - the message, not the messenger.


You agree with Republicons to always approve $trillions with zero accountability which provide no value at all..?

While also disagreeing with helping the very companies the Republicons damaged by increasing gas prices and killing credit for car buyers.

How the fuck do these ditto-sickos justify the carnage to our country!??

AU it's all about the kind of country a person envisions. Some see us all working poor and happy to watch the wealthy aristocracy live well and others see something different. Traditionally, the folks in Alabama have been grateful for crumbs. It's a very traditional state. I'd like to see Sen. Shelby live on the wages the Alabama car makers pay.

Danni, Ill bet you're a Neil Young fan.

You agree with Republicons to always approve $trillions with zero accountability which provide no value at all..?

No. Of course not.

While also disagreeing with helping the very companies the Republicons damaged by increasing gas prices and killing credit for car buyers.

The republicans are lowering gas prices now. What are you talking about? Or are you one of those who blame the republicans when things are bad, but when the situation you blame for gets better, you deny them credit?

"What's better Danni -- working for less or not working at all?"

Goatman, that's what Mexico thought before the jobs they got from us went to China. Now the Chinese are seeing some of theirs to to Vietnam.
Americans were never the low bidder on labor until we decided we had to allow goods to flow freely past our borders without regard to labor costs. That changed two hundred years of practice and is killing our middle class.

Danni, Ill bet you're a Neil Young fan.

Neil Young = Whine Rock

Non-Union autoworker wages (Detroit's starting out new hires at $14 an hour)

Posted by AMERICANUNITY

And how many of those non-union folks are on the payroll vs. those Union folks that make $28.00/hour on average?


The Republicons are not lowering gas prices now, the recession did.

The Republicon 8 year plan of carnage to loot the economy has finally come home to roost, how can blind supporters ignore the news and destruction that has become America and not take blame and shame!!

You sick ditto-shaivo goose-stepping intense morons are directly responsible for all the disasters! Suck off!

AU check your tax tables if you are a family of four making 600 a week before taxes you aren't paying 30%.

Unless of course your counting all the hidden taxes and even then your probably paying more in the ballpark of 20%.

Oh and since I suport a family of 5 in the south on just over 15 an hour I guess your just full of shit. Oh yeah did I mention I don't rent but own and my mortage is quite a good deal less than 650 on a 3 bedroom?

UAW And Why Honda And Toyota Workers Are Not Interested

blogs.automotive.com

The Republicons are not lowering gas prices now, the recession did.

AHhh -- the old double standard.

But, you do admit that it is the economy that is making the gas prices low. So a year ago when the economy was much better, it makes sense that was the impetus for the higher prices -- not the republicans as you state.

You can't have it both ways, gunner. Sorry.

Americans were never the low bidder on labor until we decided we had to allow goods to flow freely past our borders without regard to labor costs. That changed two hundred years of practice and is killing our middle class.


I agree that our middle class is threatened but this thread is about Michigan and auto workers.

Are mexicans and illegals killing us in the auto industry? We can't blame this problem on that can we?

Labor is having problems in areas without the help of illegals.

Didn't we bail out Wall Street so they could loan money to folks like Detroit?

Making shitty loans is how they got into trouble in the first place.

Why continue that practice?


The double standard? are you folks truly that simple minded??

Recession forced prices lower , called deflation.

But the abnormally bloated gas prices and constant looting of the economy forced the recession.

Again, the actual double-standard is $100s of billions approved for zero accounted contracts-to-kill or wall street pals; but begging, crawling, plans, ownership, demands for LOANS worth 1/1000 the price for AMERICAN companies..!?

Sick repubs are all greedy, ruthless, anti-patriotic america haters!
Time and Results (carnage) PROVEN!


Danni, you don't know fuck-all about alabama.

You are some dumb shit if you really believe what you're saying.

I was born and raised in alabama and i guarantee you i make 5 times what you do, that is if you are a professional, if not, i make 20 times what you do. imagine that, i went to alabama schools too. it's a wonder we could even learn, what with having to go barefooted and walk around on dirt floors and having to eat rat droppings for lunch.

The town i live in has the highest percentage of post-graduate degrees in the whole country.

like I really give a fuck what some stoned hippy who still hangs onto 60's sterotypes, thinks about my beloved home state (where the skys are so blue).

loo-oo-zzzaaaa-her.

Moneywar,
I don't know if Wisgod was ever in a union or not. Doesn't really matter.

I was in a union once. All they did was take my dues and when I got violently sick and missed a week of work, I was fired. The union did NOTHING to help me out. That was the first and last union I was in. My Father was in the UAW for 31 years working for EMD-GM and hated it. My brother was in the Teamsters for years before losing his job. They did as much for him as they did to find Jimmy Hoffa.

So you can sing the praises of unions from now until doomsday, it doesn't impress me.

The fact is that GM is a union shop. They built 9.75 mil cars last year and LOST somewhere between $50-75 mil doing so.
Toyota is a non-union shop. They sold 9.75 mil cars, same as GM. But they MADE $27 mil in profits.
The difference? Not shoddier cars, since Toyotas score above GM cars on quality and durability.
It is management, making cars people actually want and not paying $81/hr per worker in wages, benefits and retired worker benefits to build a car. The person building cars is getting only $27 of that $81.

$15 billion is just pissing in the wind because the industry that Congress is trying to keep afloat will still sink, only now every taxpayer's money will sink with them.

While The Big Three are on the verge of bankruptcy, Japan is building plants in IN, MS and KY. While Detroit crumbles and moves manufacturing OUT of the USA, Japan is building NEW factories IN the USA and creating THOUSANDS of new jobs.

While UAW workers made an average of $27/hr in take home pay, Toyota workers in KY made an avg of $30/hr in wages and bonuses. Remember that Toyota workers pay NO union dues while UAW workers do. UAW dues equal 2 hours of pay per month, so at $27 an hour the annual dues are $648. While non-union Toyota workers in KY average $62,400/yr, UAW workers average $55,512 after dues are deducted.
A new Toyota plant in Mississippi will be paying their workers appx $20/hr, but this is in an area where the average worker now makes $12/hr.

Toyota's Indiana plant has 18,000 applications for 1,075 jobs that may avg about $24/hr. Honda's plant that opens in 2010 had 5,000 applications for 37 front office jobs!

Never mind that Alabama spent billions to lure those auto manufacturers to their state, as much as $200,000. per job.

Sounds expensive.

Link?

Alabama is a state that virtually never emerged from the last Great REpublican Depression of 1929, and now has a gimmer or hope from foreign auto makers looking for cheap labor. Their own citizens wouldn't work for the wages they pay folks in Alabama. To them, Alabama is a third world country.

And yet they can afford to "buy" a shitty worthless job for the grand price of $200K.

Can a third world country afford that??? How?

"What's better Danni -- working for less or not working at all?"

Using that logic, it's a race to the bottom.

Next up: minimum wage. I mean, what's better: working for less or not working at all?

Gunner, we get your point already. You're running against Buffalo_Bob for the biggest DR Ass award. You sir, have my endoresement.

So you can sing the praises of unions from now until doomsday, it doesn't impress me.

The left here is applauding this stupid bailout because they are naive enough to believe that a worker will actually benefit from it.

they won't. they are dumb....fair enough. But they will jump on the right for "voting against their own interest" and here they are basically doing the same thing. (seemingly)

You're running against Buffalo_Bob for the biggest DR Ass award.

I think he has a way to go.

Wait till he starts espousing that GWB like to fuck orphans in the ass and that you aren't even an American.

Let's be fair.

Gunner, we get your point already. You're running against Buffalo_Bob for the biggest DR Ass award.

I got the impression he was competing with celery for the most-likely-to-have-a-
cerebral-aneurism
award.

I got the impression he was competing with celery for the most-likely-to-have-a-
cerebral-aneurism award.

#91 | Posted by goatman

Yeah, there are many awards to be given out. Considering how big of a Dick he's being, Frank3.5 has nothing to worry about.

Next up: minimum wage. I mean, what's better: working for less or not working at all?

Didn't we raise that recently?

"Didn't we raise that recently?"

Yeah...how stupid are we?

Yeah...how stupid are we?

Careful with the sarcasm.....how's the poor doing as a result of that??

Sick repubs are all greedy, ruthless, anti-patriotic america haters!

I stand corrected. Perhaps he rivals buffablowbob.

We should all be made to go on the record regarding this bailout. Then those of us that were right on Jan. 3rd when GM claims Chapter 11 can gloat

"We should all be made to go on the record regarding this bailout."

I think it's a stupid idea. It's a bad business model, why reward failure?

"...how's the poor doing as a result of that?"

Well, I certainly doubt the bulk of the unemployment is due to the minimum wage being overly burdensome.

We should all be made to go on the record regarding this bailout.

We will hear reports of more corporate jets, trips to bermuda and bonuses paid to top executives and the workers won't see shit from it.

And Danni, Larry etc... will be here to say "those motherfucking lying SOBS!!!!!!"





they will still be referring to republicans though.

They deserve squat.

"And Danni, Larry etc... will be here to say "those motherfucking lying SOBS!!!!!!"

It will be Bush's fault.

AU check your tax tables if you are a family of four making 600 a week before taxes you aren't paying 30%.

Unless of course your counting all the hidden taxes and even then your probably paying more in the ballpark of 20%.

I always thought Social Security withdrawals were a tax too. My 30% of income taken out in taxes is about spot on.

My 30% of income taken out in taxes is about spot on.

You gross $600/week?

AU check your tax tables if you are a family of four making 600 a week before taxes you aren't paying 30%.

Unless of course your counting all the hidden taxes and even then your probably paying more in the ballpark of 20%.

TAOWARRIOR

I always thought Social Security withdrawals were a tax too. My 30% of income taken out in taxes is about spot on.

(sorry, didn't have the italics in place)

And I still propose that feeding, housing, and clothing a family of four on $15 an hour is next to impossible to do in this day and age. You certainly won't live middle class.

You gross $600/week?

#102 | Posted by eberly

No, I'm talking about my figures.

I don't see how anyone could support a family of four on $600 a week - after SS and Income Tax withdrawals.

They wouldn't be 'middle class' in any event. Not at those wages for a family of four.

"Unless of course your counting all the hidden taxes and even then your probably paying more in the ballpark of 20%."

A family of four making $600/wk before taxes would be paying 7.65% in social security taxes & medicare, any locale earnings tax (typically 1%-2%), and possibly state income tax of ~3%. They would not be liable for any federal income tax.

Now if that $600/wk was self-employment profits (instead of wages from a boss), add another 7.65% in SS & medicare taxes.


They wouldn't be 'middle class' in any event. Not at those wages for a family of four.

#106 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Why are you hung up on a family of 4? Why not 9-12? We are talking Detroit afterall.

And I still propose that feeding, housing, and clothing a family of four on $15 an hour is next to impossible to do in this day and age.

It takes $5K a month just to run our household.

And we only have a mortgage....no car payments or CC debt

They wouldn't be 'middle class' in any event. Not at those wages for a family of four.

Where is it written that it should be?

EB

That's what I'm saying ...

People that think UAW members are living high on the hog are out of their minds.

I grew up in the Detroit area. Middle class is all you get for Big Three wages. I guess some would propose that being able to take your family on vacation or send the kids for a week of camp would be extravagant or something (not you).

UAW wages gets a family of four a modest home, decent car, decent education, clothes, etc. It does not provide enough to live anything but middle class.

$600/week = $28,800.00/year. I think someone is scaring the college graduates.

And I still propose that feeding, housing, and clothing a family of four on $15 an hour is next to impossible to do in this day and age. You certainly won't live middle class.


Probably church going facists who should have aborted those fucking bastards.

-hard psycho left

Well, excuse me EBERLY

I'm so wrong for assuming people should make enough to be middle class in the U.S.

How horrible of me

Imagine the next generation that couldn't afford college, and if they could, the shortage of white collar jobs now being outsourced such as engineering, software design, you name it.

Family friends kid graduated year before last with a degree in engineering from a good university. He's working his ass off, living at his parents, just to keep up with the student loans right now. Can't find an engineering job.

They better put something in the bill that are market driven solutions, otherwise, it wont pass the senate.

DANFORTH

I always forget about the employer contributions. I always pay the full SS tax.

Still, you all try supporting a family of four on 30K a year. I'll bet you'd be bellyaching.

Let's not forget that most people who have time to blog at work aren't working on an assembly line somewhere. Easy to say others shouldn't make a living wage - enough to provide a decent quality of life for a family of four.


Well, excuse me EBERLY


I'm so wrong for assuming people should make enough to be middle class in the U.S.


How horrible of me


I didn't say anything about "middle class". I was referring to $15/hr working 40 hours a week supporting a family of 4.

I agree that is very difficult but where is it even implied that should be reasonable?



Well, excuse me EBERLY


I'm so wrong for assuming people should make enough to be middle class in the U.S.


Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Even those who have to write "leftie loosey, rightie tightie" on their hands?

Easy to say others shouldn't make a living wage - enough to provide a decent quality of life for a family of four.

You are either arguing that $15/hr should just be enough (perhaps you can get congress to bring back the 5 cent rootbeer) or that the guy currently making $15/hr should just be making $25/hr.

Again, may I remind you that labor is a commodity?

Are you going to pay $4 for gas if they are actually selling it for $1.42?

Hey AU--

Send this link to your friends for the son with an engineering degree who can't find a job.

us.jobs.com

There are 1000 jobs listed all over the country.

He should think about moving if need be.

Here is another cite with engineering jobs --over 23,000 listed nationwide..

hotjobs.yahoo.com

Here is career builder with over 45,000 engineering jobs listed...


www.careerbuilder.com

There are 1000 jobs listed all over the country.


He should think about moving if need be.


they all have a drug test.

Here is dice with over 25,000 jobs

seeker.dice.com

All they did was take my dues and when I got violently sick and missed a week of work, I was fired.

That's a shame. Nobody should lose their job for getting sick. That's why I'm glad the Congress and President Clinton enacted the Family Medical Leave Act in 1993. You could have been out for 12 weeks without losing your job.

they all have a drug test.

#124 | Posted by eberly

Alright asshole. That's 2 beers on the keyboard and monitor tonight. Enough! (God, it smarts when it flies out the nostrils)

God, it smarts when it flies out the nostrils

Anheuser-Busch products won't sting as much as the imports.

good night everyone.

It's time for Mom and Dad to stop working for the kid and kick his butt out of the house.

Stop cooking stop the laundry--start charging for rent!

Anheuser-Busch products won't sting as much as the imports.

#128 | Posted by eberly

It's Miller. I've got the Champaign of Bottled Nostrils.

night, Eb.

As usual the right attacks the American worker and supports big business that sends jobs overseas.

It isn't the UAW. It isn't the benefits.

The problem is the manufacturers design shit cars. They haven't learned a thing since 1970.

But the right thinks that making Americans live in poverty is the answer. The right thinks that paying prisoner wages and no benefits will save the auto industry.

The right is full of stupidity, and hate for fellow Americans as usual.

The right is full of stupidity, and hate for fellow Americans as usual

I would never guessed da bOoB to be a right winger. But he must be. His posts are the most hateful on the DR.

The stupid part, however, I never questioned.

The problem is the manufacturers design shit cars. They haven't learned a thing since 1970.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Damn, and I would have thought you would be upset with the newer cars. The ones with the antenna built into the windshield that leaves Americans defenseless.

Again, may I remind you that labor is a commodity?

#120 | Posted by eberly at 2008-12-10 10:03 PM | Reply |

Again, may I remind you that you've already had your punk ass handed to you over this point? Labor is not a commodity. Pay attention. Focus. Write it down. Make a recording.

Labor is not a commodity.

com⋅mod⋅i⋅ty   /kəˈmɒdɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuh-mod-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation

noun, plural -ties. 1. an article of trade or commerce, esp. a product as distinguished from a service.
2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.
4. Obsolete. a quantity of goods.

You see, the highlighted words specifically exclude labor as a commodity. Get a tattoo, hire a secretary, tie a string around your finger--but remember.

Labor is not a commodity.

Get it yet?

Goatman-
re: "As usual the right attacks the American worker and supports big business that sends jobs overseas."

It does seem to be a reflexive position from the right.

Before I go to bed I would like to address this nonesensical idea that only throught Unions workers can enjoy great benefits. Many people who work in non union shops earn a great living and have decent modest benefits, but not abusive benefit packages like the parasitic UAW. The parasitic ruinous and destructive UAW doesn't have a monopoly on protecting the middle class, on the contrary, thanks to them, many people have fallen from middle class into poverty, you can't support a family on $0/hr, can't you? You can't support a family on non existent jobs not created by companies that don't set up shop here because they would rather deal with destructive hurricanes down south than destructive unions up north.

PS. In case I didn't make myself clear, I absolutely positively despise the worthless UAW.

The ones with the antenna built into the windshield that leaves Americans defenseless.

#135 | Posted by wisgod at 2008-12-10 10:42 PM | Reply


Now what are you babbling about whack job? Your stupidity is drooling again.

GO SHELBY GO! Give them Hell!

The ones with the antenna built into the windshield that leaves Americans defenseless.

FF

Member2648

The people who enjoy benefits enjoy them because of unions. Before unions, there were no benefits for anyone. Companies had no incentive to give benefits to anyone, and they didn't give benefits to anyone.

Your point is dismissed.

Now what are you babbling about whack job? Your stupidity is drooling again.

#139 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

You mean you can't defend yourself with a car antenna? I apologize. I must have you confused with that other retard who thinks there are towers on the moon.

Member-
Without the organization of labor and collective bargaining, what rights would capital have granted blue collar workers? (those very rights and perks and benefits you enjoy while carping about unions)

2. something of use, advantage, or value.?

So in your country -- bOoBistan -- labor is not something of use, advantage, or value? It is in my country, America


The ones with the antenna built into the windshield that leaves Americans defenseless.

FF

#141 | Posted by goatman at 2008-12-10 10:45 PM | Reply

Weird. You need a TV. Your elitest humor eludes me.

noun, plural -ties. 1. an article of trade or commerce, esp. a product as distinguished from a service.
2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.
4. Obsolete. a quantity of goods.


You see, the highlighted words specifically exclude labor as a commodity. Get a tattoo, hire a secretary, tie a string around your finger--but remember.


Labor is not a commodity.


Get it yet?

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-12-10 10:42 PM | Reply


It's in Your definition. Labor IS a Commodity. Why do You think they call Laborers Employees. What does Employ mean?? To use does it not?? If You agree then the labor is a commodity to be traded for monitary gain.

Larry

Weird. You need a TV. Your elitest humor eludes me.

#146 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

And one with rabbit ears if someone needs a good beating. Or a roof antenna if you want to rule the world.

In your country, labor is not a commodity dUmmy. Only in your mind, such as it is. That's why the dictionary disagrees with you. Of course, you know better than the dictionary too.

com⋅mod⋅i⋅ty   /kəˈmɒdɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuh-mod-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation

noun, plural -ties. 1. an article of trade or commerce, esp. a product as distinguished from a service.
2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.
4. Obsolete. a quantity of goods.


You see, the highlighted words specifically exclude labor as a commodity. Get a tattoo, hire a secretary, tie a string around your finger--but remember.

Labor is not a commodity.

Get it yet?

And one with rabbit ears if someone needs a good beating. Or a roof antenna if you want to rule the world.

#148 | Posted by wisgod at 2008-12-10 10:51 PM | Reply


I'm sure you think you have a point in there. I'm sure you are the only one who gets it.

Bob has a point. Labor is the source of wealth, and capital is the product or leverage of that wealth. That's why the organization of labor is terrifying, and always has been.

I'm sure you think you have a point in there. I'm sure you are the only one who gets it.

#150 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Sure, Bob. Now get ready for your sponze bath.

Larry

Can you read?

com⋅mod⋅i⋅ty   /kəˈmɒdɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuh-mod-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation

noun, plural -ties. 1. an article of trade or commerce,

esp. a product as distinguished from a service.


2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.
4. Obsolete. a quantity of goods.

Labor doesn't qualify as a commodity. You simply don't know how to use the word. Neither does Eberly. Your ignorance doesn't change the fact.

Labor is not a commodity.

Sure, Bob. Now get ready for your sponze bath.

#152 | Posted by wisgod at 2008-12-10 10:57 PM | Reply |


What's a sponze? How do I get ready for it?

Bob is also wrong. We treat labor as a commodity, which is why it's perfectly reasonable for a secretary or an IT tech to scoff at the easily replaceable Mexicans in the yard. Until their own job is sent to India.

Get it yet?

Yes, bOoB, we get it. In your country, bOoBistan, labor is not something of use, advantage, or value. (must be real fuckups in bOoBistan) However, in my country, America, labor is indeed something of use, advantage and value.

We get it.

Don't You trade Your Labor for money when You work for someone?? Isn't that commerce?? It sure is. So Yes indeed Labor is a Commodity.

Larry

And one with rabbit ears if someone needs a good beating. Or a roof antenna if you want to rule the world.

Stop it! You're killing me! LOL

If you want to make up your own definition of labor--fine--it is a commodity--or an eagle--or an ocean--or a soup ladle--whatever you like.

But in the dictionary most of the planet accepts as valid--labor is not a commodity.


Don't You trade Your Labor for money when You work for someone?? Isn't that commerce?? It sure is. So Yes indeed Labor is a Commodity.

Larry

#157 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2008-12-10 11:01 PM | Reply

See above. Make your own reality. The planet disagrees with you, but you go girl.

We treat labor as a commodity, which is why it's perfectly reasonable for a secretary or an IT tech to scoff at the easily replaceable Mexicans in the yard.

#155 | Posted by BetelG at 2008-12-10 11:00 PM | Reply | Flag

We don't treat labor as a commodity. In your scenario, can you trade the Mexicans for other Mexicans at any time? Can you trade the Mexicans for Japanese when you like? Can you trade their labor for a new car? Can you sell their labor to Russia for rubles? Can you trade their labor for oil? Labor is not a commodity. The product of labort is a commodity. That's why the dictionary doesn't include labor as a commodity, and specifically excludes any type of service(labor) as a commodity.

One of the chief causes of concern, for me anyway, is that I am not a bag of rice, and I don't look at other human beings as bags of rice or carrots, or whatever commodities one thinks of.

I'm being told that that is extraordinarily naive.

Bob-
re: "We don't treat labor as a commodity."

Yes we do. Buy some intelligence so you can understand when someone is on your side (at least for this very limited dispute - I still think you're a nutcase on most matters)

Buffalo Bob in a capitalistic society We trade Labor for Money. When the big bad Republican Bosses get tired of paying the Labor of Americans they trade us in for a Mexican model. When they get tired of paying the labor of those Mexicans well hell they will just trade those mexicans in for Chinese Labor. Now they are getting tired of paying for that Chinese Labour so they are going elsewhere. Next thing You know they will trade that Human labor for strictly automated labor and eliminate all Human labor. It's the way it is Buffalo Bob. I didn't make the world I just have to live in it.

Larry

Bob-
See Larry's #164. That's the way it is. I disagree with the way it is, and I think that most of the planet is getting screwed by the way it is, but there it is. You can be bought and sold before you know it even happened.

What I wonder about is the SOB's who piss on my back and say it's raining.

Labor is not a commodity.

Farting and tap dancing doesn't change the facts.

Yes we do. Buy some intelligence so you can understand when someone is on your side (at least for this very limited dispute - I still think you're a nutcase on most matters)

#163 | Posted by BetelG at 2008-12-10 11:17 PM | Reply | Flag


Why did you ignore the rest of the post? try again.In your scenario, can you trade the Mexicans for other Mexicans at any time? Can you trade the Mexicans for Japanese when you like? Can you trade their labor for a new car? Can you sell their labor to Russia for rubles? Can you trade their labor for oil? Labor is not a commodity. The product of labort is a commodity. That's why the dictionary doesn't include labor as a commodity, and specifically excludes any type of service(labor) as a commodity.

You can tell when desperation set in with da bOoB . He starts to cut and paste and spam his own posts ignorantly thinking that someone will actually read them more than once. LOL

Spam away, bOoB! Fool yourself into thinking that someone is reading your crap over and over. Bandwidth is cheap and the delusional need entertainment, too.

Sure You can trade one mexican for another. When the one Mexican wants more for His labor than the next Mexican. His Labor will be traded off to the one who will work for less. It's the way it is. I don't make the rules Buffalo Bob I just have to abide by em.

Larry

Oh and in the early colonial period Labor was regularly traded for things of value such as horses other labor pies You name it it was traded for a days labour. Sometimes it's still in practice. It's called the barter system

Larry

Bob, you are a douchebag if you don't understand that I was actually as much on your side on this one as I am constitutionally able to be.

I'll be more careful next time.


Sure You can trade one mexican for another. When the one Mexican wants more for His labor than the next Mexican. His Labor will be traded off to the one who will work for less. It's the way it is. I don't make the rules Buffalo Bob I just have to abide by em.


Larry

#169 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2008-12-10 11:38 PM | Reply | Flag

Why did you ignore the rest of the post? try again. Can you trade the Mexicans for Japanese when you like? Can you trade their labor for a new car? Can you sell their labor to Russia for rubles? Can you trade their labor for oil? Labor is not a commodity. The product of labort is a commodity. That's why the dictionary doesn't include labor as a commodity, and specifically excludes any type of service(labor) as a commodity.


Bob, you are a douchebag if you don't understand that I was actually as much on your side on this one as I am constitutionally able to be.

I'll be more careful next time.

#171 | Posted by BetelG at 2008-12-10 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag

Your name calling shows your weakness. Labor is not a commodity. NUHHH-UHHH isn't a good retort, even when coupled with name calling. I show you the facts--reality---the accepted meaning of a commodity, and you still insist you are correct. I can't help you.

Sure I can if I am an owner of a company and have moved My operations to Mexico and I get tired of the Mexican Labor I can pull up stakes any fucking time that I want and move to Japan. You can trade Labor for anything of value Buffalo Bob. It's the way it works. Labour is a commodity.

Larry

Bob-
Read my recent comments on this thread, and then fuck off. I was arguing that labor is the source of wealth, and is not a simple commodity. I also stated that labor is currently treated as if it were a simple commodity.

No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose...

bOoB -- when desperation brings to you the point of spamming, why don't you just admit defeat and start a fake Apollo landing thread or something?

Your name calling shows your weakness.

LOL. Cheers to
our weakest link!

"We should all be made to go on the record regarding this bailout."

Well, I am pretty obviously already on record but I am still waiting for those who voted for Bush, supported his tax cuts, believed in REaganomics to finally admit that they were completely wrong. I was very much on record about those topics. I'd like to hear from some of those who bragged about the "great Bush economy" which I told them at the time was just a housing bubble which would burst.
Now the very same people WHO WERE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING think we should listen to their uninformed, ideologically based arguments about this bailout and the potential harm to the economy not approving it could bring. Thanks but no thanks.

BTW Sen. Shelby would definitely fit into the category of those WHO WERE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING. But suddenly now he is an expert on all things.
Bull crap. He is just an asshole who can filibuster so that he can brag that he helped destroy unions.

Bull crap. He is just an asshole who can filibuster so that he can brag that he helped destroy unions.

should he or should he not represent the interests of his constituants?

Labor is not a commodity. The product of labort is a commodity.

One in the same idiot punk ass (LOL)

You just don't like it boob.

cry us a river again pansybob.

labor is a commodity. I will not pay more than I have to for it. If I can get you to work for $12/hr then I will pay you $12.

It would be nice if all wages could create a sustainable and enjoyable lifestyle.

Most of us (certainly not you.....not danni either) can accept that some wages are just not very much.

that is because some labor isn't worth very much.

Henry Ford would disagree with you Eberly.

"should he or should he not represent the interests of his constituants?"

Determining what is in the best interests of his constituents is not that simple. Allowing the Big 3 automakers could very well be very much not in the best interests of his constituents or any other Americans. A depression in America will definitely harm his constituents. Much of what Shelby has supported in the past eight years has been very bad for his constituents. Like most Republicans, he doesn't really represent his constituents, he represents a small segment of his constituency, those who are wealthy.

Not that I can't believe they gave "them" "our" money, but why do the "leaders" of "our" country keep rewarding bad business practice? It's that kind of behavior that keeps conspiracy theory alive. I am disenchanted.

Where was all the outrage when AIG got more than 10 times as much in loan guarantees as The Big Three?

Much of what Shelby has supported in the past eight years has been very bad for his constituents.

I asked you some questions yesterday Danni regarding how a 3rd world country like Alabama could afford $200K for a crappy job.

Where was all the outrage when AIG got more than 10 times as much in loan guarantees as The Big Three?

fair point.

"I asked you some questions yesterday Danni regarding how a 3rd world country like Alabama could afford $200K for a crappy job."

Actually they couldn't that is partly why they need so much aid from the federal government.
Net recipient, taking from blue states to support backwards hicks in red states.
I used to have family in Alabama, spent some time there, my description is generous to Alabama.

AU:

Ok finaly got a few secs to look over my pay stub.

Counting SS, Fed and State I paid 8.4% in taxes.

You want to know how to support a family of 5 on 600 a week?

600 month mortage counting taxes and insurance
250 month car payment
150 month debt pay down
400 month insurance
150 month power
90 month phone & internet
Leaves about 760 a month for gas food and emergencies

Gas and food average 150 week so about 600-650 a month leaves 150 for emergencies like car repairs etc.

Your 600 mortgage assumes your either bought your house a long time ago, or are living in an 700 sq ft home in the middle of nowhere.

You forgot auto insurance. On a car with a $250 payment that should eat into your left over $150 a month. You mentioned nothing about clothing for 5 children, school supplies, or any extracurricular activities.

Glad you can make it, but you wouldn't in 90% of America. Especially if you had to buy a modest home now, or God forbid, some emergency puts you further in the hole.

Americans should be able to make enough working hard to not have to worry every day.

How much do you put on your credit cards Tao?

Actually they couldn't that is partly why they need so much aid from the federal government.
Net recipient, taking from blue states to support backwards hicks in red states.


You are pointing that out on a thread where people who you support are getting $14 billion from the fed govt?

BTW, you never backed up your post.

Either back it up or shut up.

Impressive, TaoWarrior.

"Americans should be able to make enough working hard to not have to worry every day."

Communist!

Salry,

Nothing on CC cards.

AU 1300 sq feet 3 bedroom bought 3 years ago.

Yor right I forgot insurance, I only pay that every 6 months so slipped my mind. Multiplied out comes to about 40 a month so that would take me down to 110 spare. Clothes come from Christmas or B-Day presents or goodwill.

The car is paid off in 3 more months so that money will move to emergency money.

I don't say it's a great life but it was our decision to have my wife be a stay at home mom. Frankly it's been hard some times but the value in raising our children has been more than worth it. The medical cost since I got MS have sorta sucked but my company insurance is pretty good so has not been too brutal, also I am lucky in that my company has a profit sharing program which I roll into college funds for the kids so that is taken care of.

TAO

Mortgage, taxes, and insurance for $600 a month?

That's unheard of around here, and we're not an expensive city. Even in the country you can't find a place for that.

I commend you and your wife's decision to be a stay at home mom. With 5 kids I'm sure it will make a big difference in their lives.

All the best to you and your family.

Nothing on CC? So what debt is that 150 debt paydown for?

Thanks,

AU I also don't expect everyone to be able to pull it off. I did pretty well for myself in computer sales back in the 90's and early 2000's so I was able to save enough to buy a house with a nice hunk down and have one paid off car. Also my company really does treat us well with the profit sharing and good insurance.

I know when you are arguing for employee rights and I agree. I just don't think that forcing employers to do more than they can afford is going to solve anything. Although when I hear of a CEO making a few hundred million while paying squat in wages it does make my blood boil, and when I hear about CEO's asking for government handouts while still paying themselves massive wages and taking vactions funded by my taxes (not that much of it is mine) but yeah that tweeks me too.

Salry old CC bills and college loans.

Old CC is about 3k college loans about 5k will take 5 years to pay it all down. I could switch it to home equity but all of them old bills have offered me super low interest to get it off their books so a home equity line would actualy cost me more. (not only that but in this economy I wouldn't take out a equity line unless it was life and death) one thing I will not risk is the house.

I'm with ya on 99.9% of your post, TAO

The only place I take exception in your post is with the instance of the Big Three.

They had an electric car. Did they build it? Nope. They recalled them and crushed every EV.

The workers built what management told them to build. Workers had no say in those decisions. So, in the case of the Big Three, I blame management 100%. The automakers have been profitable until gas started going up, and people didn't want big ass SUV's. Management at the Big Three is 100% responsible for not having a diverse enough product line to meet any changes in the market. They got greedy on profits from gas guzzlers and set aside every innovative project in the works.

The Chevy Volt is innovative, but who's going to want to pay $48,000 for it. Who can? Not the millions and millions they need. They had the EV and crushed it. Bad move on management's part.

My dad was a UAW member. We weren't rich by any stretch of the imagination. We had only what we needed and a little of what we wanted. 1000 sq ft home for four, no boat, no second car. Still, it was tight. Very tight.

Hey, if I ever hit the lottery big time I'm gonna pay off all your bills and mortgage. Promise.

You sound a lot like my dad. My mom didn't work either for the same noble reasons your wife stays at home.

What you don't realize Tao is you are actually living off of past earnings; or maybe you do?
You think you would not be boned with a large one if you were just starting out?

Slary,

I do realize that the house would cost 850 a month to rent minimum. Also I got a big taste of it a few months ago when one of the cars died and we had to live with one car while I saved up the money to fix it. So yes I do realize that we are living on past earnings but we are also still paying for past fun (that 150 a month for the next 5 years)

Also if I was just starting out I would not have 3 kids.

It's hard to say where I would be if I started today instead of 15 years ago. I do know that my first full time job out of college would starve me at 6.35 an hour now, and it would have starved me then if not for spliting the rent 3 ways and ramen noodles.

AU: If you knew my full story you would go bankrupt trying to buy lottery tickets. It's a heart breaker but it's also part of the reason that I get so pissed about government handouts to anyone. I know sometimes people need them but I have seen plenty of people and business get them that just do not deserve them. I know, I know I'm not god to decide who is deserving and who is not so I guess the fucked up way we do things will have to do.

"Also if I was just starting out I would not have 3 kids."

Don't be so sure. I have 2 kids 13 months apart. Life comes at you fast ;)

The problem is the manufacturers design shit cars. They haven't learned a thing since 1970.-BBob

Sorry, Bob, but that just isn't true. American made cars are right up their with the foreign cars for reliabilty these days. Why would you post something as a fact when you have no idea what you are talking about?

Why? Why should today be any different?

ever...I still wont buy a ford because of the ford transmission. I havent seen or read anything that says that it is any better..
of course surely there are some out there but why should I risk that much money just to find out


and this thing did FAIL didnt it??

Why would you post something as a fact when you have no idea what you are talking about?

#204 | Posted by everlong at 2008-12-11 03:06 PM | Reply

LINK? Why would you post something as a fact when you have no idea what you are talking about?
I would say the American consumer is a better guage than you. The votes are in--American cars suck.

American cars suck.

I've never owned a foreign made car. All were American made. I think there have been 11 of them. I've never had one that sucked.

I think they keep the good ones here in my country (America) and ship the shitty ones to your country, bOoBistan. That could be why you have such an ill opinion of them.

labor is a commodity.

#181 | Posted by eberly at 2008-12-11 09:08 AM | Reply

Insist all you like. The world disagrees with you. Of course you know more than all mankind don't you--actually n0---you are just an ego-inflated moron who can't accept the fact that a commodity is a thing that you can pick up, weigh, measure, and put in a container--it is not a service like labor.

com⋅mod⋅i⋅ty   /kəˈmɒdɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuh-mod-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation

noun, plural -ties. 1. an article of trade or commerce, esp. a product as distinguished from a service.
2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.
4. Obsolete. a quantity of goods.

dictionary.reference.com

I know this won't make any difference to you, since it comes from the real world, but it might spare some from your delusions of granduer that you are the almighty word smith of the world.


I've never owned a foreign made car. All were American made. I think there have been 11 of them. I've never had one that sucked.

#208 | Posted by goatman at 2008-12-11 09:02 PM | Reply

Again, dUmmY--pay attention this time and respond to the point for once. I would say the American consumer is a better guage than you. The votes are in--American cars suck. Or do you know more than all the American car buyers too. I bet you think you do. HINT: If you've had to buy 11 cars--they ALL sucked. If you traded them early, you don't know how well they held up. A good Honda will go 12-15 years, no sweat. Are you 127 years old, or do you just trade cars off every 3 years and think you had a good car?

I would say the American consumer is a better guage than you.

???

I am an American consumer.

The votes are in--American cars suck.

Link?

If you've had to buy 11 cars--they ALL sucked.

???

But I did buy them. Did you think I stole them? Since I am the one who owned and drove them and you never layed eyes on them, I think I would be a better judge of whether they sucked or not, wouldn't you agree?

Are you 127 years old, or do you just trade cars off every 3 years and think you had a good car?

No, bOoB, I've set no human longevity records. I drive them for years. When I was married, we owned more than one car at a time. In fact, I now own a truck and a jeep.

You are aware that in my country, (America) we are allowed to simultaneously own multiple cars, aren't you? Is that not the case in your country, (bOoBistan) bOoB?

A good Honda will go 12-15 years, no sweat.

I drive 25K miles a year. I have gotten 150K on my Hondas before getting another usually.

Have always gotten a good price at 150K miles.....great school car at that point.

woot. no bailout. hopefully this will stop the bleeding of taxpayer funds dolled out to any and everyone who made bad decisions and wants taxpayer tit to suck on. if the unions would have agreed to cutting wages now instead of 2011 this would have gone thru. I thought i would never say this , but thanks to the unions and their greed hungry the court will FORCE them to cutt out all that fat they have gotten for so many years.. and maybe they can start making cars that can sell.


Kill the unions, Kill the unions, kill the unions.

"Kill the unions, Kill the unions, kill the unions."

Yeah...cause the one group you want out of there is the one who actually kept its side of the bargain.

Union are evil and corrupt. Now is the time to rise up and cruch the unions.

The automotive industry has been bleeding dollars for years now. What has changed that will enable them to be a viable business? Let GM and Chrysler bite the bullet since Ford which is positioned to survive, would be benefited.

Are automotive pensions unfunded, and not protected by ERISA? Oh, oh. Isn't there a guarantee of pensions up to $50,000 per year under a governmental or quasi-governmental program. Do UAW pensions qualify?

And are workers laid off to continue to be guaranteed 95% of their salaray and all benefits during a slack season. It makes the bailout ridiculous. This country is just throwing good money after bad, and delaying the time when it will be necessary to bite the bullet.

The Fed stealthily has pumped more than $2 trillion into the finance industry. It's under the radar, and is separate and apart from the so-called $700 billion bailout. It seems that the emrgency bailout wasn't an emergency but a ripoff. The money has not been used to make credit available to stimulate the economy, but for acquisitions.

Is there anyone stupid enough to think that the pages and pages of the bailout laws were written overnight, and that no one knew it was outright thievery? Come on. The perps include the politicians. These "under the water" companies financed both the Republican and Democratic conventions. Tit for tat. And the Governor of Illinois is indicted for what is generically the same thing, just not done as deftly?

What this country needs in politics is transparency. There should be a "Corrupt Party" that doesn't try to conceal its nature, but has its members just overtly dedicated to stealing. It's amazingly serendipitous that this country, which has a corrupt money-driven political system, has at the time of this most recent exposure of the debased state of our political structure, elected a person immersed in the sewage that is Chicago, Cook County, and Illinois politics "to clean it up." It should be fun. There'll be lots of goodies for the government to dispense in the process of providing salvation for our economy.

Here's information on "The Pension Benefit Guaranty Fund." www.pbgc.gov

"There should be a "Corrupt Party" that doesn't try to conceal its nature, but has its members just overtly dedicated to stealing."

Oh, please.

We already have two of those....

Yeah...cause the one group you want out of there is the one who actually kept its side of the bargain.

#215 | Posted by Danforth

Dude, I don't think the unions caused all the auto makers problems.

the us auto makers have been running an outdated business model for 50 years, the unions have only been part of it.

Dude, I don't think the unions caused all the auto makers problems.

Your correct. But the legacy costs associated with the union contracts are unsupportable in the companies business model.

Why doesn't the union agree to the same work rules, wages, and benefits that the foreign companies with plants in the US provide their US employees? The rank and file would go for it, the leadership will not.

The UAW leadship is not concerned with the UAW worker, the leadership is concerned with the loss of power.

Maybe the UAW should have thought about who they worked to defeat in politics. This day has been coming for 10 years.

Is there anyone stupid enough to think that the pages and pages of the bailout laws were written overnight,

Is there anyone so ill informed they didn't know Paulson's bailout 'plan' was 3 pages long, meaning the bailout plan that was passed (more than 3 pages) was written in a hurry to put out the fire Paulson knew was burning when it was a trash can fire? WAY before the flames started coming out the roof?

Pity he didn't deem it necessary to share that with anyone else until it was an emergency.

The GOP has dug it's hole deeper fighting this small bailout in the Senate - small in comparison to the hundreds of billions for Wall Street firms who got the money with ZERO conditions attached.

Did they use the money for it's stated purpose? Nope

They used it to pay dividends, pay off debt, and go on shopping sprees for other banks.

The GOP's actions will not be forgotten come 2010.

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