Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, December 02, 2008

An atheist group has unveiled a sign in the Washington state capital next to a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree." The sign, installed with permission, reads, "At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

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Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

....and makes a HUGE amount of money for some.

happy festivus!

Free speach at work for once. Dont' agree with the message, but glad to see they allowed the sign instead of censoring the "evil" christian symbols.

That's a great way to get people to be more accepting of your views. Insult the shit out of them.

Well, I guess they won't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

That's a great way to get people to be more accepting of your views. Insult the shit out of them.

#3 | Posted by everlong at 2008-12-02 04:35 PM |

yes. tell them to send you money or you won't be able to preach the word of gawwwd!

that's not insulting.

but glad to see they allowed the sign instead of censoring the "evil" christian symbols.
#2 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2008-12-02 04:33 PM

Huh? When did they start censoring the $?

That's a great way to get people to be more accepting of your views. Insult the shit out of them.

#3 | Posted by everlong

Sure, Christians have never had to resort to insulting or threatening people to get them to convert.

I'm proud of my State Capitol for once.

Sure, Christians have never had to resort to insulting or threatening people to get them to convert.

#7 | Posted by TFDNihilist

If they did I would say that's a real dumb way to get someone to convert. In fact, I would say anyone who converted after being insulted would be a weak individual. Besides my only point is that these atheists obviously aren't trying to make any friends. I think anyone who argues for or against the existance of God is foolish.

"Insult the shit out of them."

If they're insulted by the truth, then so be it.

Nonsense. My mind was so freed by God it moved right out of my head. Godspeed to it, wherever it is.

Takeitez.

ff

I went to a religious school as a kid and even as a six year old I could tell when something was hypocritical/inconsistent/
ridiculous. My mind was never in any danger and I don't really think that makes me special.

I don't think religion enslaves anyone. Some people just need to be part of a group that shares common beliefs and thought. So they become very active in a church or in a vocal atheist group or whatever else.

Then there are more independent people who don't need to have their every belief confirmed in church or on a billboard or wherever.

Then there are more independent people who don't need to have their every belief confirmed in church or on a billboard or wherever.

#13 | Posted by Sully at 2008-12-02 05:12 PM |

...or a blog.

sincerely, takitez,vermin,kirk etc.

If they're insulted by the truth, then so be it.

#10 | Posted by Angrydad

And you know this to be true how? Yet another fool trying to prove the non-existence of something that no one can prove.

"That's a great way to get people to be more accepting of your views. Insult the shit out of them."

Which is, apparently, takitez's modus operandi here on the Drudge.

Hans

I went to a religious school as a kid and even as a six year old I could tell when something was hypocritical/inconsistent/
ridiculous.

I did too, except it was cathechism (sp?), not school. But I, too, at six YO questioned the nun about the whole transubstantiation thing. (I think I told this one before) I asked her if I looked at the blessed host through my grandfather's microscope if I would see Jesus' flesh cells instead of bread. *sound of ruler across the knuckles*

I guess I have my MD Doctor grandfather to blame for my lack of faith by teaching me science before the nuns could stuff my head full of religious fantasies.

You are right, Sully, religion doesn't enslave anyone. My caveat is however, "unless they they let it".

"And you know this to be true how?"

My atheist god told me.

Some dopes are just too easy.

Good.

Yet another fool trying to prove the non-existence of something that no one can prove the existence of.

FTFY.

close italic.

Some dopes are just too easy.

#18 | Posted by Angrydad

You make an absurd comment and I'm the dope? I guess if that's what you need to tell yourself.

Awesome!

my atheist god is an AWSOME god :)))

read what you typed angrydad.

I find my peace in my belief and trust in Jesus.
Some find peace in their belief and trust in GOD.
Others find peace in meditation or other inward focuses.
Still more find peace in the intolerance of another's path to peace.
Who am I to judge them?
I say, no victim, no crime. To be insulted is one's own choice. That's my vision of freedom.

What trash...

God bless America!

Atheists say religion enslaves minds right?

What if Atheism was a trap of the mind itself leaving one unable to see or intuit a higher consciousness beyond the self and limiting one's scope of the world around them?

Who is to say who is right or wrong.

Beliefs are like assholes,

everyone has one.

Right???

If thisc was just a "natural world" like those athiests suggest, why can't we throw those crazy fucks in the stew pot. Just doing my natural thang.

"Well, I guess they won't expect the Spanish Inquisition."

"NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION"

Kepler, Planck, Kelvin, Mendel, and Newton would be surprised to learn that their minds were enslaved.

...and picks your pocket, too.

It's always about the money.

Looks like NORTHGUY3, HILLBILLYDELUXE and Hans have 'used' my username in vain.... hehehehe.

My higher power is a power greater then myself. I ask for knowledge of his will and the strength and courage to carry it out.

No money has ever been asked for....

That's a great way to get people to be more accepting of your views. Insult the shit out of them.

#3 | Posted by everlong

How is stating an opinion insulting? I find religion to be insulting to ones intelligence.

This Atheist holiday sign is nothing in comparison to what George Carlin has to say --- I youtubed some of his rants/comedy last night and found them hilarious, only that he has gone far off the deep end of the devil's side.

I was also not happy at the way Phelps was gloating over Carlin, but....

If thisc was just a "natural world" like those athiests suggest, why can't we throw those crazy fucks in the stew pot. Just doing my natural thang.

#28 | Posted by fwthom

try it Mfucker..then you get to see darwins theory in action.

"It's always about the money."

You may be right

seattleatheists.org
mnatheists.org
www.atheistsunited.org
www.sfatheists.com
aofonline.org
www.justgiving.com
www.change.org
www.atheistagenda.org

Well, the Judeo-Christian United States is open-minded enough to permit the silly sign. But if you want to see slavery writ large, take a hike over to one of the former Communist countries that made atheism their state religion. If people think the idea of Presbyterians or Jews near the levers of power is a terrifying prospect, try letting a bunch of militant atheists run the show.

I'd rather have it our way.

How is stating an opinion insulting? I find religion to be insulting to ones intelligence.

#34 | Posted by Legio

If someone told you that your mind was enslaved by something you believe in would you not feel insulted? I would.

Takitez, Carlin was a comedian. It's different than some group telling you your mind is enslaved. Carlin never went that far by the way, but I can see where some of his stuff may be insulting. I know just about every bit Carlin did. Loved the guy.

"At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

----

Evangelizing atheists. Stop shoving your beliefs down my throat.

That was sarcasm if you couldn't tell.

In all seriousness, anything can harden hearts and enslave minds...even atheism.

Congratulations on getting the sign displayed. Equal time is only fair. I'd like to see it all over the nation. Happy Winter Solstice to all.

Carlin was the Patron Saint of Comedy.

"anyone who argues for or against the existance of God is foolish."-- One of the wisest things I have ever heard I think.

Happy Quarter Moon!

"anything can harden hearts and enslave minds"

another true gem.

"...try letting a bunch of militant atheists run the show."

Surely yer not talking about our pals, the Chinese.

Happy Quarter Moon!

thanks, Pirate!

I dont understand why crazy liberals preach freedom of speech but the minute its about christianity. They go crazy, the majority of this country is christian and no matter how many crazy sighns go up it will never change our minds. So give it up and do some thing worth wild like trying to fix hunger or close the borders.

How rude, Goat,

You're supposed to say "Happy 6:38!" back.

I sincerely doubt, Sal, that those organizations have a fraction of the cash that the JOJCOLDS used to pull off Proposition 8, or the amount of loot that Jan Couch drags in by crying on camera, or need we do the books on the Vatican, mmmm?

Nice try. Don't fly. Bye-bye.

Why do religionistas feel that they have the right to subject everyone to their religious holidays and dogma? Especially in a government building which is suppose to represent everyone and remain secular by the design of the US Constitution. The US wasn't founded by the religious radicals who came to north america. The US was founded by just the opposite. People who were horrified by the senseless bloodletting by the religious fanaticals up and down the East Coast. Seeing the centuries of bloodshed across the world due to religious warring, the founders were influenced by the age of enlightenment and reason. They decidedly rejected religion interferring with government. However, the religionistas never give up interferring, trying to get control of the government and the pursestrings.

I say, no victim, no crime. To be insulted is one's own choice. That's my vision of freedom.

Blow it out your ass, you sanctimonious 'mo.

anyone who argues for or against the existance of God is foolish."-- One of the wisest things I have ever heard I think.

#43 | Posted by GotTruth

Well, thank you. And I'm with ya on Carlin. Pure genius he was.

RE:

If thisc was just a "natural world" like those athiests suggest, why can't we throw those crazy fucks in the stew pot. Just doing my natural thang.

#28 | Posted by fwthom

Doing your natural thing is killing others who disagree with you? Sicko.

It's only foolish to argue something that you can't prove. You have to prove their is a god first in order to make your argument.

RE:

If they're insulted by the truth, then so be it.

#10 | Posted by Angrydad

And you know this to be true how? Yet another fool trying to prove the non-existence of something that no one can prove.

#15 | Posted by everlong

No one is required to prove that something does not exist. It is the person who claims that something exists who is required to prove their claim. 'Belief' is what it is. Not a proof, just a belief, because it can not be proved.

Carlin, but....

#35 | Posted by takitez

takeitcheesy, do you personally believe that carlin is toasting marshmallows with satan as we speak? I'm not being snarky either, i really mean it. If Carlin is there, then surely Saddam and Hitler are there too, right? Stalin, he's satans political advisor.

What about a guy that espoused a good belief in jesus as his lord and savior and is a criminal too, like say al capone.

What about a guy that espoused a belief in jesus but in his heart really didn't believe, but only pretended all his life? Is he going to hell too?

I'm not taking a shot at 'cha, i'm really curious as to where you think the line is. I already know that according to every religion on earth except bhuddism, i am going to hell.

No one is required to prove that something does not exist.

----

Except when you're the one making the claim. The burden of proof resides with the one making the claim.

Not a proof, just a belief, because it can not be proved

----

Definitely true. That is why when it comes to God, one can only say "I believe..." not matter what that belief is.

God cannot be proven nor disproven at least not in a concrete way.

"Nice try. Don't fly. Bye-bye."

I see, so various religions cannot solicit donations to promote their agenda without being all about the money but atheists can?

Do atheists have real estate they don't pay taxes for simply because they're atheists? How about income taxes on their "contributions"?

Seattle Atheists could use your help! We are a non-profit (501 (c)3) organization dedicated to serving the atheist community in the Seattle area.

Send me your money or you will burn in hell forever!

God says so!

NOW!!!

Lipzo, you know where I stand already; by now, I'm getting to be more cautious as I realized many here see things from opposite angles and try to shave my head when I make statements or asserts certain biblical positions.

Let me just say this: please, please, invest serious time to really determine if this 'hell' is really real --- its no joke when you're facing an eternity of hopelessness if it is real and you end up there. You cannot even begin to imagine the despair.

OK, for my sake, if I have a sliver of persuasion, please youtube EARTHQUAKE KELLY and watch all the series of interview with Sid Roth. He comes from a Voodoo background and experienced dealing with spirits (intelligent and mean spirits); in fact as he descended into hell, it was the same spirits that did his bidding were the ones pulling him down to hell --- but his mother's prayers supplied a legal reason for God's angel to pull him back up from hell.

(Later his son died of a carjacking incident and Earthquake went to heaven and saw him, and came back to tell it. No kidding).

I know someone has accused me of reducing spiritual message to youtube, but this is a means (out of many) to reach out to unbelievers and make them think twice.

just food for thought:

Is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?

Even Einstein said that religion is for the weak minded.

Albert Einstein: God is a Product of Human Weakness

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

atheism.about.com

I get a laugh outa that one all the time.

I'd say "religion enslaves" minds is one of those affirmative positions atheism says it never takes.

Yes, you guy believe in stuff. Not much, but stuff nonetheless. Now watch 8th Grade debaters take it all apart until such time Bill Maher discovers he can make money from doing the same thing.

"I am going to Hell...."

You might get mercy, Lipizoidal, that's all anyone can really ask for.

By the way, the Buddhists think you are already in Hell. Enjoy.

Albert Einstein: Concept of a Soul is Empty and Devoid of Meaning

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

- Albert Einstein, letter of February 5, 1921

This one is my favorite!

Albert Einstein: Feeble Souls Believe in Survival of Death Because of Fear & Ego

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.

- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, April 19, 1955

I know someone has accused me of reducing spiritual message to youtube, but this is a means (out of many) to reach out to unbelievers and make them think twice.

#64 | Posted by takitez

Shit dude, I was hoping maybe you would take my question seriously. bummer. depth of mind is a gift to be cherished.

why is everybody so hung up on proselytizing? the first thing someone said was 'insulting people is not a good way to convert them'. takeacheese said 'reach out to the unbelievers'.

good old american merchantile, mechanical mentality. make a buck, get a haircut, praise the lord, pass the salt. get a convert, score 5 points in the afterlife. give a good portion of your pay to a church and you have moral purity.

The whole way of thinking just makes me violently ill in my head.

"Neither can I believe the individual survives teh death of the body...."

Er, did Einstein state the REASON he thought that, or did he just pull it out of his ass?

"I cannot imagine a God that rewards and punishes the objects of his creation...."

Then goes on immediately to state that God is modelled on human beings. Hmmmmm.


Mythology: a primitive people's beliefs concerning its origins, early history, heroes, deities, and so forth, as distinguished from the true accounts which it invents later.

Oh, I see---Einstein is stating that he, Einstein, knows what God should be like. But, since he isn't that, He can't be God.

I am understanding this, am I not?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

So, how do you think Einstein was like in regards to automotive repair?

Is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?

----

Yes, but I have no evidence of that.

So, no.

Am I morally obligated to kill him myself..."

Jesus had a lot to say about that. In short, no. Both of you can live.

Well, Einstein was Swiss, wasn't he? Automotive repair was not out of the realm of the Coo Koo clock. My guess is he could figure it out.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

The US Constitution states Blacks count as 2/3 persons. Do you really worry about such things? And if so, why?

"Well, Einstein was Swiss, wasn't he?"

No.
He was German.

Scientific laws are not verifiable! They cannot be empirically validated. Science is based on the law of cause and effect, and that law cannot be validated in experience either. David Hume demonstrated this, but the philosophical atheists of today, who consider themselves as the "brights" of our time, have never understood this. Hume's argument was a bombshell, and to this day his ghost continues to haunt the corridors of modern science. It is quite amusing to see educated people, including our community of self-styled "brights," continue to make claims about science that were exploded two centuries ago by David Hume.

Why are scientific laws unverifiable? Hume's answer was that no finite number of observations, however large, can be used to derive an unrestricted general conclusion that is logically defensible. If I say all swans are white and posit that as a scientific hypothesis, how would I go about verifying it? By checking out swans. A million swans. Or ten million. Based on this I can say confidentally that all swans are white. Hume's point is that I don't really know this. Tomorrow I might see a black swan, and there goes my scientific law.

This is not a frivolous example. For thousands of years before Australia was discovered, the only swans people in the West had seen had been white. What was once considered "fact" had to be retired.

Brights tend to hold onto their preconceived notions, however, and will fight tooth and nail to preserve white swan science.

Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

#76 | Posted by LeeAtwater

Yes. And you have to kill yourself for doubting.

LEE

Pointing out the paradoxes of the Old Testament and Christ's teachings is guaranteed to make TAKITEZ's head explode.

Einstein was a German Jew.

Merry Christmas!

THEONEBS

Most scientists are well aware that science works on inductive reasoning and as such never "proves" anything according to pure logic; rather it reaches what it considers mathematical certainty by eliminating doubt by amassing data that is repeatable.

IMHO, I think science versus religion is a false dichotomy. Too many wish to create a kind of culture war with these as the sides. Many frequent this blog.

In actuality it is a tempest in a teapot.

PAX

In other news, Jesus finishes his exhausting work on his mind enslavement machine only to find he is 25 years behind MTV. Spend the rest of eternity watching "Date My Mom".

An atheist group has unveiled a sign in the Washington state capital next to a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree." The sign, installed with permission, reads, "At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Tolerant Christian and Catholic girl that I am, I plan to egg any of those signs I see.

You might get mercy...

I'm taken with reports that people see their life "pass before their eyes" as they fall off a building, etc.

Neuroscience tells us that our memories are stored though not always retrievable.

So what IF...

when we depart this veil of tears we are blessed - or cursed - with complete and accurate memory?

What IF...

we remember ALL of our transgressions as well our good deeds?

And of course...what IF we have the objectivity to see ourselves in a true light and judge our lives accordingly. Are you really happy with your life?

Too bad this sign didn't go up last year--Bill Maher could have included reactions to it in his movie.

Neuroscience tells us that our memories are stored though not always retrievable.

So what IF...

when we depart this veil of tears we are blessed - or cursed - with complete and accurate memory?

I remember reading an account of someone who had a near death experience. The person claimed that he relived every event of his previous life, but instead of seeing those events from his perspective, he experienced them from the perspective of the other people involved in each incident.

Too bad this sign didn't go up last year--Bill Maher could have included reactions to it in his movie.

#92 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday

Yup, Bill oulda made some hay from that fer sure.

Good movie, nonetheless.

Even as an athiest/ recovering Catholic Spud has a problem with this group's efforts.

Their signage...

"...Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

...Is a bit of an overstatement.

Religion can be a force for good or evil and a blanket statement like that particularily when in it's presentation it appears to be peeing in the Christmas Egg Nog is more likely than not gonna be counter productive to wot these folks are trying to achieve in terms of winning hearts and minds.

They are, in fact, likely to harden more than a few hearts against athiests with these tactics.

Spud doesn't question their right to have representation in the town square just the intelligence of taking such a approach.

Be Merry.

Be Well.

instead of seeing those events from his perspective, he experienced them from the perspective of the other people involved in each incident

~Gal T

If true then Adolf Hitler's afterlife experiences musta truly been hellish.

Good.

Be Well.

/See also: The Marquis DeSade

I'm humored by the honest attitude of CALIFCHRIS, and wondering why Hans is not fuming. Wish I could send you to a corner in India during first week of December --- too late for this year.

Wish I could send you to a corner in India during first week of December --- too late for this year.

What does that mean?

Oh, just a suggestion --- beautiful things are happening around the world and many Americans are too engrossed in their own worlds and getting bored to death. She's Catholic and there is a grand cathedral there, plus humongous festival (1 week) takes place there every first week of December. That's all.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

"At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Tolerant Christian and Catholic girl that I am, I plan to egg any of those signs I see.

#90 | Posted by CalifChris at 2008-12-02 09:15 PM | Reply |

Then you could certainly understand where the person was coming from who egged the Nativity Scene---right?

What an embarassment for the State and the Governor.

What an embarassment for the State and the Governor.

Posted by MURPHY

You mean because all people are equally entitled to freely express their views and beliefs?

Yes, that is certainly embarrassing.

The Christmas tree is a secular symbol and the Nativity scene is underneath it on the 3rd floor of the building. (?)

The holiday is recognized by the gov't.

Like I said--embarassment for the State and the idiot Governor.

Like I said--embarassment for the State and the idiot Governor.

#103 | Posted by MURPHY

So just to clarify then... people who do not believe the same way you do should be prohibited from expressing their beliefs on an equal basis with those with whom you agree?

"The Christmas tree is a secular symbol"

If that were true then Laura Bush would not have had to apologize for putting one on the White House Hanukkah card.

Not to be an ass, zed...

But it was 3/5 of a person. Took 5 black slaves to equal 3 votes.

San--they can post the sign--they have free speech--yes.

But it is an embarrassment all the same.

And the menorah would have been more appropriate on the Hanukkah card.

In fact there is Christmakah folks running around--lol

San--they can post the sign--they have free speech--yes.

But it is an embarrassment all the same.

#107 | Posted by MURPHY

I guess I just don't get how people being allowed to exercise their right to free speech can be considered an embarrassment.

And to be clear - I don't subscribe to the atheist's "beliefs", or lack thereof by any means. But my own beliefs are not threatened or diminished by them being allowed equal freedom to express themselves.

I see nothing to be embarrassed about with the atheist sign---it is a simple statement of fact. On the other hand, it is embarrasseing to me that adult people seriously worship invisible space aliens and think themselves holy.

I see nothing to be embarrassed about with the atheist sign---it is a simple statement of fact. On the other hand, it is embarrasseing to me that adult people seriously worship invisible space aliens and think themselves holy.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Which makes you EXACTLY the same as them.

Oh, just a suggestion --- beautiful things are happening around the world and many Americans are too engrossed in their own worlds and getting bored to death. She's Catholic and there is a grand cathedral there, plus humongous festival (1 week) takes place there every first week of December. That's all.

Oh, my mistake. I thought you wanted to send Hans to India, not Chris.

OOOps, just got info that a friend died (in his early 50s). Life is just like a vapor like the Bible says --- here on earth for a while and then gone. Just like that.

Late at night but a friend is picking me up to go to the deceased residence.

just got info that a friend died

My condolences.

BuffaloBob --

This is a two-part post!

[ATHEIST SIGN:] "At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

"Tolerant Christian and Catholic girl that I am, I plan to egg any of those signs I see.

#90 | Posted by CalifChris at 2008-12-02 09:15 PM"

Then you could certainly understand where the person was coming from
who egged the Nativity Scene---right?

#100 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-12-02 10:26 PM

I can see WHY the atheist guy threw the eggs -- because he hates God and finds offensive any displays of Christianity and/or Christmas.

But as for your comment which seems to equate an atheist throwing eggs at a Christmas Nativity scene as being equally justified and/or as understandable as a Christian throwing eggs at this particular atheists' sign -- then I beg to differ.

Why? Because there is a distinct difference between the two displays -- the Nativity scene set up by the Christians and the sign displayed by the atheists. And it has nothing to do with belief or non-belief in God, either.

Here is the crux of my rationale --

The Nativity scene, while its mere existence may offend some die-hard atheists who do not want to even see it displayed, there is nothing at all in the Nativity scene which directly attacks atheist beliefs, is there?

For example -- In a Nativity scene, you don't have the figure of the Baby Jesus in the manger with a little sign next to Him saying "Atheism sucks." Nor does the Nativity scene have the statute of St. Joseph holding a placard saying "If atheists don't believe in my Son, the Lord God, they will go straight to hell"

That's an extreme example but it goes to the core of my argument -- there is NOTHING about a Nativity scene which directly attacks, by words or anything else in the display, which attacks -- directly -- everyone who is an atheist.

(CONTINUED BELOW)

BuffaloBob -

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)

NOT SO, though, when it comes to the sign the atheists put up next to the Nativity scene. Certain words in the atheists sign are a DIRECT written attack on all religions and those who do believe in God.

I'll highlight in bold the "attack" portion of the atheists sign --

At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

All the other words in the atheists' sign could be ignored and written off as a statement of their beliefs -- no gods, no devils, not angels, there is only the natural world, blah blah blah. And Atheists have a right to state their beliefs in a sign just as Christians would have a right to have a placard with a written prayer at their Nativity scene.

BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS HERE -- The Nativity scene did not attack atheists whereas the atheists directly attacked and degraded the Christian (and all other) religion when they wrote this portion of their sign -- "...Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves mindshardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Those are the words which crossed the line from merely a sign stating the atheists' general belief to making their sign state what would constitute a written "attack" on another group -- those who believe in God.

Hope you can see where I was going with my point -- how while both displays may have been offensive to the opposite group, only ONE group (the atheists') resorted to their display being an attack on the other.

So to answer your question, while the Nativity scene did nothing to incite having eggs thrown at it, the atheists' sign did antagonize and deserve --

>>>>>>EGGS>>>>>INCOMING!

(ps -- And just so you know that although I might get mouthy on DR, I really wouldn't throw any eggs at the atheists' sign. I might though, when no one was looking, maybe use a black marker and scribble out some of their sign. lol

TAKITEZ

OOOps, just got info that a friend died (in his early 50s). Life is just like a vapor like the Bible says --- here on earth for a while and then gone. Just like that.

Late at night but a friend is picking me up to go to the deceased residence.

#112 | Posted by takitez at 2008-12-03 01:24 AM

Losing a close friend or family member is always difficult whenever it happens, but when the loss occurs at this time of year (around Christmas) it somehow makes it even harder to deal with.

I'll say an "Our Father" tonight for your friend and his family.

BuffaloBob --

I'm ready for our BuffaloBob Book Club. lol

Still have not received my copy of "The 12th Planet" but the bookstore said arrival would be roughly the middle of December. And then I'll need a little time to get started on a few chapters and will let you know when we can start our discussion.

Oh, my mistake. I thought you wanted to send Hans to India, not Chris.

#111 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2008-12-02 11:07 PM

Someone is sending me to India?
All expenses paid? 1st class airfare? A 5-star hotel?

Sure, I'll go.

As long as you haven't booked me a room at the Taj Mahal Hotel.
I wouldn't want to spend my entire vacation having to wear a flak jacket.

words cannot express things, speech cannot convey the spirit,
swayed by words one is lost.

A 5 star hotel in india? That's about the same as a motel 6 here.

Califchris

I'll be looking forward to the book club discussion.

As to your egg throwing comparison, I disagree. The nativity scene says plenty. It does say if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell---it says everything in the bible is true---it says much more than the sign. Words are not necessary to convey a message. The Nativity scene is not secular--it is a religious icon, recognized the world over. It says exactly the things you say it doesn't say--- "Atheism sucks." "If atheists don't believe in my Son, the Lord God, they will go straight to hell"--because the Nativity scene is for believers in the bible, and that is what the bible says.

Your logic that words aren't involved doesn't hold up. It's like saying the American flag doesn't mean anything because words aren't written on it.

BuffaloBob

As to your egg throwing comparison, I disagree.

I knew you would. But your theory of "words aren't needed to convey a mesage" wouldn't hold up in a court of law. Pure and simple. I was a paralegal so I tend to usually think in purely legal terms.

SCENE OF THE CRIME --

A cop comes by and you and I are throwing eggs at each other's display.

My display is the Navity scene in which there was no PHYSICAL proof (no words on a sign, nothing) whereby you might have been incited to throw eggs.

Now the cop turns to you and sees the atheist sign at your display. The cop sees what in court would be submitted as "PHYSICAL PROOF" -- of your intent to cause anger and retaliation which you got by me throwing eggs at you.

The cop asks me why I threw eggs at you. I say to the cop -- "Look at what the atheists' wrote on their sign. The words written angered me and were written with the 'specific intent to incite and cause an emotional and/or angry response'."

Now the cop turns to you. He says "Why did you throw eggs at the Nativity scene? What physical PROOF can you, as an atheist, show me is in the Nativity scene which was placed there with the "specific intent to incite and cause an emotion and/or physical response" by you and/or other atheists who saw it"?

You can not come up with a single thing which would hold water in court.

You say to the judge: "Words are not necessary to convey a message."

The first thing ANY judge will say to you is "Am I suppose to be a mind reader"?

Then he'll ask you how do you know just what was meant to be conveyed and, more specifically, was put in the Nativity scene on purpose "specifically to incite anger" other than the simple fact that in your mind you don't like religion and don't believe in God.

LEGALLY, the fact you don't like something, or believe in something, in NOT a legal justification to commit an egg attack on a physical religious display simply because you don't agree with the beliefs which the display represents.

There has to be some PHYSICAL PROOF showing an intent to incite anger.
No physical proof on your part? You had no right to throw eggs.

Here's how the story ends --

The cop hauls your atheist butt off to jail for throwing eggs at my Nativity scene.
Since you had the inciteful sign physically present my egg throwing was wrong but justifiable and the cop lets me off with only a warning. LOL.

And, if you apologize to me nicely, I might bail you out of jail in the morning. *grin*

(I'm real tired right now so excuse any typos or if it doesn't all make clear sense but I went at this totally from a legal angle -- not on which of us is right re religious philosophy. That part we can do another time.)

Nighty nite!

Califchris

Your theory doesn't hold water. I think the cop would arrest both.

You ignored the American flag comparison. The American flag says plenty---so does the Nativity Scene. If the Nativity Scene didn't say anything, people wouldn't want to put it up around Christmas. If the American Flag didn't say anything, people wouldn't get upset when it is burned or defiled. The USSC holds that burning the flag is Free Speech--no words spoken. If the Flag can talk--so can the Nativity Scene.

I think a jury would see it my way.

Just because im a kind of inflamitory person..
I want to put up a Nativity scene with figures that all look like they are from The Planet Of The Apes.

See how long it takes before someone demands i take it down :)

It is funny to me that they used the Winter Solstice which has forever been linked to festivals, celebrations, & rituals that have been religious in nature for all the cultures involved! Why take time & money & space to disprove the existence of something that can't be proven and the atheists claim is BS anyway? Protesting too much?
Atheists should celebrate Festivus! It's perfect.

Why would a atheist care about a christian scene?
Why would a atheist even try to promote self ideas?

How idiot is this country beginning to become, all left out and trying to get on the big bus.

1BS,

To compare biological diversity to Geometry, for example, as if they are similar scientific problems is absurd.

Mathematical Systems depend on simple basic assumptions, like the definition of a point or line. The laws which can be derived logically from such assumptions are an extraordinary tribute to the human mind and the field of science. They work, consistently. From the mechanics of a simple lever to Einstein's amazing discoveries outside our ordinary ability to see and think. At the speed of light, time stands still. This knowledge is as certain as the mechanical forces developed in different sized gears.

There are many kinds of math which predict perfectly in our otherwise imperfect human existence. The math forces tremendous insights. Every type we discover has eventually found to model some aspect of our universe, which behaves perfectly and impersonally, like math. But in many complexities, especially life, which we do not yet understand, GOD(s) continue to reside. That front between knowledge and ignorance will always move,but never go away.

Most differences of opinion, illustrated on this site, differ on personal assumptions and/or definitions. With very ordinary human intelligence, everything else falls out from that.

Unless there's money involved, then the bullshit gets real thick real fast. Which is one very good reason to operate schools as not for profit enterprizes.

I should have said money or sex.

LEGALLY, the fact you don't like something, or believe in something, in NOT a legal justification to commit an egg attack on a physical religious display simply because you don't agree with the beliefs which the display represents.

There has to be some PHYSICAL PROOF showing an intent to incite anger.
No physical proof on your part? You had no right to throw eggs.

Chris, since you started the egg throwing, wouldn't Bob be justified in claiming that you were the one whose intent was to incite anger? The atheist sign need not be seen as a "specific intent to incite and cause an emotion and/or physical response." It could be seen as an attempt to express an opinion. Egg throwing, OTOH, is an act of property destruction, or at least an attempt at property defacement. Expressing an opinion is bound to anger someone. Think of the campaign signs that get stolen or defaced in every election. I'm not saying you couldn't protest the atheist sign, but throwing eggs at the sign wouldn't be the best way to go about it. If I were the cop or judge, I'd punish both you and Bob equally, once the egg throwing had begun.

BTW, I think the Nativity scene is an expression of an opinion, a belief, and that's exactly what the atheist sign is too. Some people will agree with one belief, some with the other and still others with neither. The latter group might feel justified to throw eggs at both displays.

"I find my peace in my belief and trust in Jesus.
Some find peace in their belief and trust in GOD.
Others find peace in meditation or other inward focuses.

Still more find peace in the intolerance of another's path to peace.

Who am I to judge them?

I say, no victim, no crime. To be insulted is one's own choice. That's my vision of freedom."

#25 | Posted by libertarian_gi

And many others prefer to be condescending arrogant pricks, pathetically trashing people's beliefs and customs from the anonymity of cyberspace: they are quite well represented in this forum.

**** Yet another fool trying to prove the non-existence of something that no one can prove.
.....#15 | Posted by everlong ****

........or another fool defending it.........

"hardens hearts and enslaves minds"

Wow people, I never really saw it that way, but the author is completely and entirely correct. Religion, especially Christianity hardens the heart against that which is evil, and enslaves the Christian to the wonderful truth of Jesus Christ.

I will sit more comfortably on my pew now that 9 out of 10 atheist agree....

Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

I think religion can harden hearts and enslave minds, but it doesn't always and it doesn't have to. I think the atheist signs overstates the case, and in that way is an expression of fundamentalism as great as any expressed by the fundamentalists of any religion.

Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

I think religion can harden hearts and enslave minds, but it doesn't always and it doesn't have to. I think the atheist signs overstates the case, and in that way is an expression of fundamentalism as great as any expressed by the fundamentalists of any religion.
#135 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday

They didn't say "always" hardens hearts and enslaves minds, but I get your point.

Doesn't matter if it is religion or atheism, they both can harden the hearts and enslave the minds.

Just look at the sign and it is clear those who posted the sign have this exact problem.

Put no barriers between you and where you are.

Atheists think there is only the "natural world"? So do I, though we mean entirely different things by that.

So your best friend has climbed back into the bottle this Christmas and what you have to offer him is just what he already sees?

Just shake your atheist head a complain he doesn't get it. Just understand he doesn't think you get it, either.

They didn't say "always" hardens hearts and enslaves minds, but I get your point.

True, but they didn't qualify their statement either. They could have said: "that can harden hearts and enslave minds."

It IS a very unqualified statement. Even Bill Maher doesn't try to argue that "God" doesn't exist, as does the sign, he is just rather prolifically agnostic, particularly towards the often inane antics of very human religious interpretations of God.

I don't mind the equal time, but it comes off as rather paranoid.

"It comes off as rather paranoid...."

It comes off as mean. But I'm sure the authors of that sign have evolved beyond meaness.

mean

It does that. You'd think they might want to at least say, "Happy Soltice!".

I am of the opinion that the sign seems to be portraying their message in a hateful and rather close minded way... It seems to me that those that came up with the sign and posted it are the ones that are hard hearted... it seems to be made to put Christians, Jews (these two in particular because of the time of year) and other religions on the defense for really no good reason...but that may be my bias talking... I guess I am of the opinion, if you don't want to celebrate a holiday then don't... Just like I don't celebrate Halloween I don't expect people to celebrate Christmas or Easter...

And to the statement that the Nativity Scene implicitely states that "Atheism sucks".... I don't believe that it is meant to... I believe that it is supposed to remind those of us that are willing to remember (and that believe in it) in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ... and it is supposed to give hope to those that feel drawn to it... not in the scene itself but in the message of the story that the scene conveys... again, it may be my biased talking...

To be honest, I was kinda angry at the sign too.. not so much of who put it there as what it explicitly says... but after seeing other points of view I am now a little more understanding about it..

"At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The intentional meanness here is found in the use of the word "prevail." Prevail against what? Yuletide joy? Family gatherings? People going to religious services? Happy and excited children? A day off from work? Christmas lights and decorations? Messages?-- even if one thinks the basis is a fairy tale, of peace and hope?

It is laughable that the atheists find the religious basis of Christmas to be overwhelming our culture these days for ill.

The hardened hearts here are not found in the religious people but the Scrooges who put the sign up.

Cheers

Happy Festivus.

Prevail against what?

#144 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-12-03 10:49 AM |

Ignorance and superstition. The other things you mentioned can be found in Festivus.

Religion is the cancer of mankind. We are doomed to extinction unless we release ourselves from these stolen stories of the bible and stand on our own. Humanity is afraid to grow up. We either grow up or die---all of us--everywhere---for all time.

Think about it---if we were so special---why would this a god wait 15 billion years to create us---keep us around for a few thousand years, until we finally have a society---then end it all and evaluate everyones soul? Then what? What happens to the universe for the next trillion years? What was the point. It's like building the most beautiful mansion on the planet, having a party in it for 4 seconds, and leaving it empty forever after that. What was the point? What kind of logic is that? What kind of god is that? Grow up.

-What kind of god is that?

Obviously the kind that doesn't fit into your limited ability to reason about God.

Science now touts multiple universes and extra-dimensions, but some have no room for any interpretation of God in any of them.

Sounds fundamentally closed-minded to me.

Buffalo Bob, If religion were such a cancer then why do studies show that a person that attends religious (any religion) services regularly live on average 20% longer than those that don't? If it were just because of routine and goodwill (that religious people are usually active in) then why wouldn't just helping at a shelter or soup kitchen or some other humanitarian effort on a weekly basis do the same thing? Perhaps it does... and I would like to see a study on that too..

I am not going to deny that there are people that claim to be "religious" but follow a legalistic approach and are close-minded and judgemental... but from my own life experiences I find that this is false more often than not..

God created us to worship Him... (retorical questions) If you believe in God does it really matter where you worship Him? Whether it's on earth or in heaven?
God also put us here as a test to our faithfulness to Him... So if we are faithful to Him here on earth, where there are temptations to go a different direction, then it will never really be the end. Besides, we don't know that the universe will then be void when the Revelation comes to be... we don't know if He doesn't have any other creations somewhere else in the vast universe... we are lucky to be able to study stars that are millions of light years away... I don't think we will ever know if there are other beings out there.. (no, I don't believe in "aliens" but I don't discount the possibility of other living beings out there)

Corky

I was talking about this universe and this god. You ignored all else as usual. No answer. No response. Just the illusion of an answer--you are full of illusions, and can't survive without them. You will never grow up. Mankind will never grow up. Extinction is our future. Simple isn't it.

I'm probably going to catch it for asking, but I have to ask, in reference to:

We either grow up or die---all of us--everywhere---for all time.
If we, as a race, live or die, what does it matter?

All right, back on topic. You folks all know my stand with respect to religion. For the record, this sign they put up? Waste of time and money, and yes, a considerable insult.

Yes I know, I poke eyes with sticks more than a bit. But I do try to restrict my targets. The Religious get the stick, the religious get left alone (and I would like to hope that everyone in here knows the difference). See, that's the whole thing in a nutshell. I'm not convinced it's needed to convince someone who believes in a deity that that deity doesn't exist. After all, if the believer is wrong, eventually he dies, and nothing else happens. As long as that believer isn't going out of his way to make people that don't believe precisely as he believes miserable, or trying to dominate others' lives, let him alone, for crying out loud!

This sign was a big stick in the eye of religious folk. If it was strictly against the Religious, then I'd be all right with it. But it's not.

I have a bit more, but I ran out of characters. Gimme a sec.

This one's for Christine. I asked a judge about the situation you hypothesized on regarding the egg-throwing. Sorry dear, you're both going in the klink for "desctruction of property". Peobably both get out the next day, maybe do a few hours com-service, but that's it. But you (the Nativity holder who threw eggs at the Atheist display) don't get off with just a warning.

So, the lesson here is, make sure no one sees you when you throw the eggs.

Incidentally, Chris, have you settled on a migration route yet? (Totally off topic, I know.)

-Extinction is our future

This kind of optimism is what makes you so attractive, dear.

-this universe and this god

This universe where the current theory is that gravity is a weak force because it "leaks" into our dimension from some other dimension?

That seems to open the gate for all kinds of possibilities in this universe, does it not?

It sounds like you are stuck on some interpretation of God you may have heard as a child. Perhaps if you opened up your mind a little to other possibilities, life would not seem so bleak to you.

(have to clock back in, I'll lurk a bit and see if there's anything I need to respond to when I get home then, should be around 1700 Drudge time)

I wonder what the Chaplain of the House of Representatives had to say about the sign.

Buffalo Bob, If religion were such a cancer then why do studies show that a person that attends religious (any religion) services regularly live on average 20% longer than those that don't?

Why do you people make these kind of statements to outrageous statements and not have a link--then think you have made a point. LINK? Link to one of these "studies".

"If it were just because of routine and goodwill (that religious people are usually active in) then why wouldn't just helping at a shelter or soup kitchen or some other humanitarian effort on a weekly basis do the same thing? Perhaps it does... and I would like to see a study on that too..

Again---no point---yet I bet you think you made one.

I am not going to deny that there are people that claim to be "religious" but follow a legalistic approach and are close-minded and judgemental... but from my own life experiences I find that this is false more often than not..

That is not my life experience, and I would say it is not the life experience of most--religious or not. Ask the Shi'ites and the Sunni's. Most religions teach exclusion of other religions. Ask Fred Phelps. Ask the Catholics and Protestants of Northern Ireland.

God created us to worship Him... (retorical questions)

It was a statement--and is your god really that shallow? If you could make something come alive, would your motivation be so that you would be worshipped? Then what?

If you believe in God does it really matter where you worship Him? Whether it's on earth or in heaven?

True---and does it matter if there is a Nativity Scene or not under that concept? If religious people wouldn't try to force their icons on us all, atheists wouldn't bitch. Put a Nativity Scene in your front yard, and I'll admire it. Put it on the White House Lawn and I'll bitch like a banshee.

God also put us here as a test to our faithfulness to Him...

You are saying you know the mind and motivations of God.

So if we are faithful to Him here on earth, where there are temptations to go a different direction, then it will never really be the end.

It will end in the sense I said it would---an empty universe. To what point? So some are faithful and some are not? To what point? Some are punished forever and some find eternal bliss. To what point? Billions of years and a few thousand years of life and--to what point was that billion year effort---to what point the billions of years after humanity is gone?

Besides, we don't know that the universe will then be void when the Revelation comes to be... we don't know if He doesn't have any other creations somewhere else in the vast universe... we are lucky to be able to study stars that are millions of light years away... I don't think we will ever know if there are other beings out there.. (no, I don't believe in "aliens" but I don't discount the possibility of other living beings out there).

So?--there could still be life on Earth. Just because there may be some bugs on another planet, doesn't negate the point---billions of years before humanity--then a few thousand years of life--then billions of years of bugs crawling around on the creation. To what point? Why wait billions of years before the creation of humanity? Why 140 million years for the dinosaurs and only 200,000 years for humanity--and only a few thousand years not living in caves and being hunted by larger predators--and only a little over a hundred years with electricity. To what point? To worship Him? To test our faith? To what point. I can tell you--some will have faith and some won't--some will worship and some won't. It doesn't take a God to figure that out---so---what is the point? Why the effort?

#148 | Posted by k8blujay at 2008-12-03 11:19 AM | Reply | Flag

Think about it---if we were so special---why would this a god wait 15 billion years to create us---keep us around for a few thousand years, until we finally have a society---then end it all and evaluate everyones soul? Then what? What happens to the universe for the next trillion years? What was the point. It's like building the most beautiful mansion on the planet, having a party in it for 4 seconds, and leaving it empty forever after that. What was the point? What kind of logic is that? What kind of god is that? Grow up.

BB,

Your usual assertions I have gone over time and time again without changing your mind. I don't assume I will here and now. I would, however, like to comment on one aspect that I find amusing in the above passage.

The humorous irony of the atheist argument is found in criticism of God as being too anthropomorphic in some places and then here not anthropomorphic enough. Your point is that God doesn't exist because he doesn't think like or act like we think he should.

Cheers

God created us to worship Him

???????

"Religion enslaves minds"

"Atheism enslaves the soul"

Freedom give you the choice to do as you think best.

Isn't that alsso called "Free Will"?

Sounds very much like a religious thing to me.

Corky

Maybe if you weren't a Christian you wouldn't be such a pompous ass. My outlook on life is not in the least bit bleak. That humanity will go extinct has no bearing on my life. I will be gone long before the last starving, disease ridden, ignorant, human being gets on his knees and begs for life from a God that never was, and whose last thought will probably be--"Sometimes the answer is, "no"".

On the other hand, the alternative is to realize we are all on this floating rock together, and that time is running out. We need to work together as one, and have one goal---and that goal has to be--get off the planet. If you look at the Earth from the perspective of the moon--humainty is litle more than a fungus on the Earth--a fungus that seems to have the property of killing itself off over time by its own excesses---much like yeast.

If you want to talk about gods from other dimensions--fine--but we were talking about the biblical God. If the God you are talking about is the one true God and He is interdimensional, then we know nothing about him other than that. What else does science say about this interdimensional god you worship? Does the Pope know? Was the interdimensional God, Jesus too?

Your 15 billion year argument makes no sense as you are using our current definition of time. In the Bible a week is 6 years, 10,000 years is the blink of an eye to God, etc. And Cancer of the mind? Come on? One would think that one's ability to not think past what they can see & touch would impede their opportunitites to reach higher levels of consciousness? The major difference for me is that an atheist will hurl insults & condescension at a believer and that same believer will pray for an atheist. Not militants of either, regular folks like 99.9% of people. I believe in Jesus, have felt him in my life, but I'm well versed in religions far older than Christianity to know that the Bible borrowed quite a bit with the spread of the Roman Empire so I'm not of the "blind faith". I don't think God wants us to be. At the end of the day for me it is enough to know that we're not celebrating the birth of Bill from Galilee or any of the other 1000 "messiahs". Jesus was different. Don't be so bitter and if you must be, don't mock other people's beliefs. Extinction is our future? Merry F**cking Christmas. They have medicine for depression you know.

Grendel

Your post doesn't answer the question. What a surprise. You never do. Would you worship a God that was evil--of course you would--you do--just because God doesn't act like you want Him to is no reason not to Worship Him. Would you consider it evil to allow six million to die when you had the power to prevent their deaths? Hitler had that power--he could have prvented the deaths and he didn't---we consider him to be evil. God could have prevented those deaths also. To me, a God that doesn't prevent deaths like that is no God---that is evil---I wouldn't worship it, even if proven true. You seem to have no such scruples. Maybe if you pray hard enough He won't do unto you like He did unto others. Wrong. You'll get it too--probably worse than Hitler, if you die in a hospital.

Religion doesn't enslave.

The membership of a political party enslaves.

Democrats think that Republicans are evil.
Republicans think that Democrats are evil.

They hate each other, or at least, they promote the hatred through their members.

When you hear, "I'd never vote for someone with a (D) or (R) after their name" has shown that their decision is based on party.

That's kind of mindset is what people complain about religions.

Do you think we'll ever have a third party or fourth party to choose from? Who is really the slave?

BB--we have gone over that issue of the 6 million killed by Hitler--God granted us free will. He doesn't work that way.

There were like 42 attempts to kill Hitler--all failed. New movie coming out with Tom Cruise and the German soldier with the eye patch. He failed too.

And it was the Americans with help that took out Hitler in the end.

Would you elect representatives that are evil--of course you would--you do--Congress doesn't act like you want them to is no reason to elect or re-elect them. Would you consider it evil to allow thousands to die in Iraq when you had the power to prevent their deaths? Congress had that power--they could have prevented the deaths and they didn't---we consider that to be evil. Congress of 2006 could have prevented those deaths. To me, a Congress that doesn't prevent deaths like that is no representative of America---that is evil---I wouldn't elect it. You seem to have no such scruples. Maybe if you pray hard enough they won't do unto you like they did unto others. Wrong. You'll get it too--probably worse, if your children die on the battlefield.

"...was talking about this universe and this god. You ignored all else as usual. No answer. No response. Just the illusion of an answer--you are full of illusions, and can't survive without them. You will never grow up. Mankind will never grow up. Extinction is our future. Simple isn't it.

posted by BuffaloBob

Why does anyone need to grow up if extinction is our future? Extinction makes such terms as "grown up" arbitrary at best, indeed meaningless. Me thinks BuffandHuff is trying to impose human meaning onto a meaningless universe. This is typical of arrogant atheists, too arrogant to see their own hubris.

Buffalo Bob here is are links to articles that talk about the study that supports my point of those attending religious services live longer...

www.webmd.com

www.seniorjournal.com

www.endowmentmed.org

news.yahoo.com

three of these articles appear to talk about the same study...I am being redundant in the links

sorry about my bad grammar... that is what happens when my fingers work faster than my brain... :/

-If you want to talk about gods from other dimensions--fine--but we were talking about the biblical God

Soooo, God is OK as long as he is from out of town?

Pure dementia.

"If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity, but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences."

~ H. P. Lovecraft ~

No one is required to prove that something does not exist. It is the person who claims that something exists who is required to prove their claim. 'Belief' is what it is. Not a proof, just a belief, because it can not be proved.

#56 | Posted by countmyvote

Bullshit. Why is the onus only on the person claiming there is a God? If a person claims there is not a God they are making a claim just as well. Why should they be relieved of the burden of proof? AS I said yesterday, both are foolish for making the claim either way.

Even Einstein said that religion is for the weak minded.

Albert Einstein: God is a Product of Human Weakness

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

atheism.about.com

#66 | Posted by pragmatous

And this is proof of what? Just because Einstein was a genius does not mean that his opinion on this subject holds more water than anyone else's.

And of course...what IF we have the objectivity to see ourselves in a true light and judge our lives accordingly. Are you really happy with your life?

#91 | Posted by OzarkAggie

A very interesting book on this subject is 'Saved By the Light'. It chronicles one man's two near death experiences along with those of many others. The similarities of their experiences are pretty incredible. Not saying it proves an afterlife, just that it is an interesting read.

I remember reading an account of someone who had a near death experience. The person claimed that he relived every event of his previous life, but instead of seeing those events from his perspective, he experienced them from the perspective of the other people involved in each incident.

#93 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday

I wonder if you read this in the book I just wrote about, 'Save By the Light'? That is exactly how the author explained his experience. At least part of it.

That's Saved

Belief in God is like the Q-ray bracelet. The belief in its powers has a measurable impact on the person who believes, but that don't make it anything more thank a hunk of metal. Its a placebo, but evens these have benefits.

When my mother died, she saw something we didn't see & it brought her peace. She described it & went to it in front of my very eyes. Maybe atheists just haven't been given "their" proof yet. I think its unique to the individual, the moment. My opinion, not gospel, but I know for me it was enough.

"At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail"

Humans are creatures not merely of reason, but also of emotion. To demand that one or the other prevail is demanding that humans become non-human.

I find this argument about "god" to be meaningless, because it really is an argument between those who believe in the "unerring word of God" as "written in the Bible" vs. those who point out the many discrepancies in the Bible. Fun head-butting for both sides, but doesn't touch on reality.

The concept of "god" is really an extension of humans looking at a universe they do not comprehend and trying to make sense of it. The concept of "religion" is really an instinctive behaviour of humans to be part of something, to share in something with fellow humans.

How various humans have used these concepts for their personal gain does in no way detract from the essence of the two concepts. Demanding that the opposition adhere to rules of critique set up by one side (or the other) not only doesn't legitimize that position, but invariably detracts from it. To put it more simply, presenting the Bible as proof of "God" has no more meaning than demanding that a metaphysical entity, "God", adhere to the laws of science as we _now_ know them.

I don't believe in gods, but the atheists are displaying a severe lack of imagination, ironically enough. The spiritual impulse would be there, for whatever real world reason, whether there was organized religion or not. We, like gods, are driven to comprehend the world and our place in it as a whole.

God forgive us:)

I have nothing against atheism. My answer to "Is there a God" is...... I don't know. One of my brothers firmly believes there is no such thing as god but you wouldn't know unless you asked him.

What I do have a problem with is people who, for no other reason than their own pompous sense of self satisfaction, have to shit on the beliefs of others. There is no rational excuse to put up a billboard insulting religious beliefs. Its all about ego for these people.

And what is the point of being an atheist if you are just going to join some atheist club so you can sit around groupthink as if you're in church? One of the main perks of being an atheist is that you don't have some douchebag telling you what to believe. Apparently, these jackasses missed that aspect of religion so they joined a club.

Soooo, God is OK as long as he is from out of town?

Pure dementia.

#168 | Posted by Corky at 2008-12-03 12:32 PM | Reply | Flag

You bring up interdimensional gods as a dodge and I'm the demented one.

Christian logic.

I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside at St. Judes or on death row. You'll find God in the strangest places. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but if something, say God, brings comfort to anyone, that isn't a bad thing.

Your post doesn't answer the question. What a surprise. You never do.

BB

But, I am not surprised at your response.

I learned long ago that for you someone only answers your question when they absolutely agree with your stated position.

Cheers

I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside at St. Judes or on death row.

You'd be wrong.

Nice posts FYI and BetelG

-The spiritual impulse would be there,

It's interesting to me that even some former '70's pop psychologists like Wayne Dyer (The G Spot) have in recent years come to see psychological motivation as concerning the desire for the personality to, "reconnect to one's source", in a mind/spirit sense.

Dyer uses psychology, philosophy, and religious sources to demonstrate his hypothesis quite well.

I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside at St. Judes or on death row.

???

What kind of horse shit is that? I don't think I've ever read anything so idiotic on the DR, and I've read a lot of crap here!

www.webmd.com--From your link

Nov. 25, 2008 -- Going to church -- or any kind of religious service -- may prolong your life.

Which means it may not. Or it means it may actually shorten your life. You put forth the idea as fact. Your link does not back your claim.

www.seniorjournal.com--
Headline of your link:

Senior Citizens Who Attend Religious Services May Prolong Lung Health

Which means it may not. Or it means it may actually be bad for your lung health. Isn't TB transmitted by air from people who have TB---aren't there a lot of people at church? Isn't your chance of catching TB better by going to church than staying home and watching the game?
www.endowmentmed.org--From your link:

The investigators concluded that although religious behavior is associated with a reduction in death rates, the physical relationships leading to that effect are not yet understood and require further investigation.

Which means that simple meditation may do the same thing, and it requires further investigation. You put forth th idea as fact. Your link does not back your claim.

news.yahoo.com---Headline of your link:

Religion May Help Extend Your Life

Which means it may not. Or it means it may actually shorten your life. You put forth the idea as fact. Your link does not back your claim.

three of these articles appear to talk about the same study...I am being redundant in the links

"Maybe" isn't a fact. You shouldn't state things as fact, that are merely being speculated.

#166 | Posted by k8blujay at 2008-12-03 12:26 PM | Reply

-You bring up interdimensional gods as a dodge

No, Sweetie.

I brought up science's recent enthusiasm for multiple dimensions as casual factors of natural phenomena.

You are the one who seems to believe that if a God were to exist, it would somehow be limited to some other multi-verse than our own.

I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside at St. Judes or on death row.

#181 | Posted by HATEBIGGOV

Why would their child be in bed on death row?

Sanantonio-
It was God's plan that the sentence was constructed that way.

" science's recent enthusiasm "
~Corky

many-worlds interpretation
Do you not think it a matter worthy of lamentation that when there is such a vast multitude of them [worlds], we have not yet conquered one?
Alexander the Great

An interpretation of quantum mechanics, first proposed by the American physicist Hugh Everett III in 1957, according to which, whenever numerous viable possibilities exist, the world splits into many worlds, one world for each different possibility (in this context, the term "worlds" refers to what most people call "universes"). The phrase "many worlds" was first used by Bryce DeWitt, who wrote more on the topic following Everett.

www.daviddarling.info

I happen to be one of the late professor Dewitt's students.

"Why would their child be in bed on death row?"

I'm trying to figure out when death row became such a cutting-edge, pediatric-care facility.

Hans


I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside at St. Judes or on death row.

???

What kind of horse shit is that? I don't think I've ever read anything so idiotic on the DR, and I've read a lot of crap here!

While I understand that people maintain their atheistic beliefs in spite of terrible tragedy, I think there is a subtle point here.

People of faith are prone to doubt about their beliefs when faced with certain aspects of life. I think most (I hesitate at saying all) people of faith have a dark night of the soul.

It makes perfect sense then that most atheists when faced with certain aspects of life, for example the one described above or perhaps a positive experience of the sublime, would experience the equivalent doubt about their own beliefs--a kind of "bright day of the soul."

BS, not really. The mistake in the original assertion is probably in use of the words "guarantee" and "no atheists."

PAX

"Any two points can be connected by a straight line." Euclid

Upon this, the very first of his 5 axioms, Euclid built his entire system of mathematics called geometry.

Make any two points, anywhere in the universe, no matter how far apart, and it is physically possible (though not always technically feasible) to draw a perfectly straight line connecting the two of them.

We might say it differently, "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line." On the surface we conclude that this must be true, as anyone can plainly tell upon first glance. Common sense would say, "It's obvious. What else could it be? It's a proven certainty!"

Euclidean geometry, with its postulates, theorems and proofs is founded upon the above axiom, which though apparently not needing to be proved (cuz common sense says so), is nevertheless still an assumption!

Additionally, the above axiom/assumption was also in back of Newtonian physics. From a simple assumption mathematical systems have been created, sytems which have helped us to "grow up" in our understanding of the universe.

But wait a minute! How can we say we truly know something for certain, when at its foundation is something uncertain and unprovable? Wouldn't such a system of knowledge be false, wishful thinking, even a fairy tale?

Hmmmmm! Well, we've built sky scrapers and sent men to the moon...and done so by trusting that assumption. Certainly the unproven must be trustworthy? I guess you could say that trusting the assumption has worked for us, and that the knowledge gleaned from such trust has confirmed the truth of the assumption. And we could also say that our faith in the unprovable foundations of reality has led us to deeper knowledge of that reality.

The statement, "Prove it to me and I will believe" would not have allowed Euclid to move forward and develop his system of mathematical knowledge we know as geometry. The same could be said of Newtonian physics which tells of objects in motion staying in motion unless acted upon by an outside force...and will travel in a straight line. Newton too assumed Euclid's assumption was trustworthy.

At its most elemental level, mathematics begins with a faith assumption, and not a certainty, a faith which leads to higher knowledge.

By the way, the shortest distance between two points is not a line. Euclid's assumption helped us to "grow up" in our understanding, but there is still a higher knowledge which his simple assumption paved the way towards. It took a guy named Einstein to perceive more deeply, also on faith, that Euclid and Newton weren't exactly correct. Their systems are helpful, but not absolute. Without them, however, we would never have come to know that the shortest distance between two points in fact is not a line, but a geodesic.

It's amazing where faith will lead us, and that such is required in all fields of knowing. Indeed, faith comes before knowledge. But it's shameful and tragic that the stalwarts of certainty keep us from going there!

I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside at St. Judes or on death row. #181 | Posted by HATEBIGGOV

I don't know, I'm familiar with more than a few atheists with cancer.

Ok fine.... Religious services MAY lengthen life spans...

Buffalo, are you happy now?

There are plenty of secular agendas that use things that MAY result in something as fact... but that is for a different discussion... :/

Grendel-
re: The mistake in the original assertion is probably in use of the words "guarantee" and "no atheists."

Yeah. Just remove those words and phrases and the sentence makes complete sense.

Grendel-
The error was in the assumption that everyone, deep down, believes in God.

Grendel-
The error was in the assumption that everyone, deep down, believes in God.

BetelG,

Really? I don't see the assumption of latent faith implicit in the statement.

I thought the statement meant that certain situations incline us to believe--not that deep down we all believe.

In other words sitting by a dying child's bed does not uncover a belief in God that was always there; rather, it may put an atheist in a frame of mind in which he or she may very well choose to assert a belief.

PAX

I can see thousands of people watching the sea part so they can cross it. The land, being dry where water once was. Manna from sky.

Eyewitnesses to the event.

Have you ever been somewhere and saw something that you didn't have a photograph of or recording. But, it happened. No one can convince you it didn't - yet, some will believe you and others will not.

Their non-belief will not change the fact that you saw it. Those that believe you won't make the fact any more real.

Some people believe others out of faith. Others have actually been the eyewitness. Even the eyewitness isn't believed, except when you have a few in a courtroom - then suddenly a person's testimony has credit and is reliable.

If I use the athiest's belief system that, if they can't recreate it or have it recorded for their own proof, then the legal system shouldn't have eyewitness testimony for it is simply words and carries no weight as proof. I hope athiests are never on a jury as their belief system is skewed. People can't be trusted or believed with that mindset.

You people make Me wish I hadn't farted so loudly 13.5 billion years ago.

None of this would have happened.

I learned long ago that for you someone only answers your question when they absolutely agree with your stated position.

Cheers

#182 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-12-03 01:38 PM | Reply

You didn't even disagree. You simply ignored the question/concept, as usual, and went on the attack instead of dealing with what was said.

If the majority of the country is Christian then where ever do they find people to fill the prisons, crowd the casinos, consume the alcohol and drugs, attend the R and X films,work on Sunday, and chase a dollar to the gates of hell.

petrous

Apply your logic to the thousands who have witnessed UFOs and claim alien abduction--how about Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster. Does your belief system apply? What's the difference, if it doesn't.

You people make Me wish I hadn't farted so loudly 13.5 billion years ago.

None of this would have happened.

So that is what Zat has devoted his life to studying--the farts of God.

I am sure he would love that.

Cheers

-the farts of God

Don't laugh. I've cut some major award winners!

This just wasn't one of them.

You didn't even disagree. You simply ignored the question/concept, as usual, and went on the attack instead of dealing with what was said.

The famous definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results.

In the past I have addressed these questions of yours and many others. You were not convinced then. You will not be convinced now.

Since you didn't accept them even as answers and won't, is there really any reason to pursue it?

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

--Joshua in War Games

Cheers

Bob, Yes, the belief system applies. If they saw it, why shouldn't they believe it. If others saw the same thing and can collaborate it, then why wouldn't you believe it, too.

The difference? It's in the mind of the person hearing it. Some people will refuse to believe the testimony of eyewitnesses despite how many there are.

I was on a jury listening to a guy declare he didn't beat his kid. Yet, there were many eyewitnesses to it. The mommy refused to believe it and thought the witnesses were all mean people. Sorry, but under oath, so many people witnessed it. It may hard to believe, but as a juror - we all believed the guy was scum.

For some, it's not faith or belief, it's accepting it and that which comes with it - like consequence.

"An interpretation of quantum mechanics, first proposed by the American physicist Hugh Everett III in 1957, according to which, whenever numerous viable possibilities exist, the world splits into many worlds, one world for each different possibility ..."

Zat, isn't that different from the multiverse theory, which also stems from quantum mechanics, which postulates IIRC a universe of bubble space-time continuums, possibly close in nature to each other but not necessarily? Please correct me where I'm wrong.

www.cosmicfingerprints.com

Bob, people were at the base of the twin towers hearing explosions and some were in the buildings. Remember all the eyewitness testimony about what they believe happened on 9/11?

So, here you have eyewitnesses to an event but no proof to back them up but their word.

There are many that believe them, despite the lack of the proof the athiest demands from Christians.
There are many that believe they didn't really see or hear what they think.

Corky, so if the theory of the multiverse proves to be true, then that entire "proof" presented by Dr. Ross is untrue, isn't it?

I'm extremely leery of "proofs" like the one presented there, especially when the Big Bang is equated to Jesus Christ. I don't believe we will ever come up with proof of the existence of "God", not just because I believe God to be way beyond our understanding, but because I believe God to exist outside of our space-time continuum(s). Like the argument/theory that if we can see (however we would see) another multiverse, then it is merely an extension of our universe. And if it isn't any part of our universe, then we can never see it.

I can think of very few hypothesis that I agree with every detail of, and JC as the BBT is one of them.

BUT string theory is not dependent on a repudiation of the BBT, is it?

And the BBT's mathematical singularity existing outside of space and time moments before God farted (see above posts), er, before the bang, is just what one would expect to find if Genesis were "true".

Another interesting debate here, and no, I would not agree with everything he says...

www.leaderu.com

P.S. George Noory is a nutcase.

"And the BBT's mathematical singularity existing outside of space and time moments before God farted (see above posts), er, before the bang, is just what one would expect to find if Genesis were "true"."

Ergo, if the multiverse theory proves correct, the Bible is wrong - isn't that what you are saying? I think that's a very shaky position.

So many on here seem so perplexed -- even annoyed -- about why anyone would make the following statement --

I can guarantee there are no atheists sitting at their child's bedside
at St. Judes or on death row.

#181 | Posted by HATEBIGGOV

Why? St. Jude's Children's Hospital is a highly-esteemed pediatric hospital and research center -- usually the place of last resort to find a cure for children diagnosed with incurable cancer. If there ever was a time when an atheist (or anyone else) might grasp at any possible means (even spiritual) to cure their dying child, it would be when they sat at their dying child's beside at St. Jude's. Not too big a stretch to imagine that possibility.

However, I think GRENDEL provided the best explanation of all:

I thought the statement meant that certain situations incline us to believe
-- not that deep down we all believe.

In other words sitting by a dying child's bed does not uncover a belief in God that was always there; rather, it may put an atheist in a frame of mind in which he or she may very well choose to assert a belief.

PAX

#198 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-12-03 02:32 PM


**** God created us to worship Him
.....#157 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 ******

........why?.......was he feeling insecure?........

No, that is what you said.

God can't create multiverses?

He'll be pissed if he hears that.

"No, that is what you said."

Yep, I did, because it seems you had tied the "proof" of God and BBT=JC to the BBT exclusively.

"God can't create multiverses? He'll be pissed if he hears that."

Don't know where you got that one. I do contend that God created multiverses, if they exist. And that is precisely why I don't like the tying of the "proof" to the BBT.

- the BBT exclusively

Hardly.
Just fighting science with science.

You don't care for mathematics that tend to prove your hypothesis?

........why?.......was he feeling insecure?........

#216 | Posted by skizziks

Nope because He felt like it...

"You don't care for mathematics that tend to prove your hypothesis?"

Corky, I definitely feel like I'm totally misundersanding you. Anyhow, just in general, I'm against the concept of mathematics, science, et al "proving" the existence of "God". My belief is that God is a metaphysical entity and thus outside of, and beyond, the ability of us, or any of our tools, to "prove". I'm even very leery of any attempts to even try to do so. To me, God is something I believe in. Full stop.

Fine enough, FYI.

I just had an old Pastor who believed it wasn't a requirement for people to leave their brains at the door of the church, that's all.

"I just had an old Pastor who believed it wasn't a requirement for people to leave their brains at the door of the church, that's all."

So he spent time giving you "proof" that God exists? I would have walked out. I'm not of the opinion that I need "proof" of God's existence before I believe in God.

Of course, my long time Jesuit friend always told me that my brother was correct in constantly excommunicating me from the CC. And not just because I believe that, if there is a heaven, an atheist who lives an ethical, moral and caring life will get in well before people like Takitez and Nanc will.

-an atheist who lives an ethical, moral and caring life will get in well before people like Takitez and Nanc will.

Well, we do have some common ground. Although ethics and morality have little to do with faith.

Using one's God-given faculties to see God in nature or science is not seeking proof, it is seeking God.

Of course, my long time Jesuit friend always told me that my brother was correct in constantly excommunicating me from the CC. And not just because I believe that, if there is a heaven, an atheist who lives an ethical, moral and caring life will get in well before people like Takitez and Nanc will.

FYI,

I am honestly curious. What do you mean by getting into heaven before? Are you employing a figure of speech merely to indicate that you believe one is more worthy of salvation than the other, or do you think there is an order to which one enters heaven and that some are required to wait--Purgatory?

Cheers

"Using one's God-given faculties to see God in nature or science is not seeking proof, it is seeking God."

Agree.

"Although ethics and morality have little to do with faith."

Yep, practically nothing. And yet, they are the fulcrums of JC's teachings.

I have to laugh at the people who say that they believe that God is too much of a powerful being to be proven by our science, but they claim to know enough about Him to know who He's going to let into Heaven or not.

"I'm not of the opinion that I need 'proof' of God's existence before I believe in God."

FYI echoes my sentiments about Nancy and EZ, so he (?) can't be all bad. But I gotta wonder how someone can "believe" in someone and not need any proof. That "faith" thing again? The ability to believe something your common sense tells you cannot possibly be true? herm

"The ability to believe in something your common sense tells you cannot possible be true...."

"Common sense"? Really. Prove that exists, and then prove you have any. And if you prove you have some, prove it's better than mine. Because proof matters, you said so.

#90 | Posted by CalifChris at 2008-12-02 09:15 PM

An atheist group has unveiled a sign in the Washington state capital next to a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree." The sign, installed with permission, reads, "At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Tolerant Christian and Catholic girl that I am, I plan to egg any of those signs I see.

Et tu, Chris?

What amazes me is the compounding of the declarations concerning the effects of religion. After the initial declaration, there is an axiom of group making the declaration that they present as indisputable fact. "Religion ... hardens hearts ...?" Is this true?

I find that there are folks who inveigh against religion on various and sundry grounds, and make claims regarding the effects of religion on society. Let's take an objective look at what is stated as a universal truth. Is this a valid claim?

Certainly the charitable activities in the U.S. belie the claim of "hardened hearts." How do these folks get away with such claims unchallenged. Without recourse to the validity or bona fides of religion, let's address such claims, and they if it is found to be invalid, let those making the blanket accusations demonstrate the decency to modify their remarks. I think that the claim is unsupportable. I wonder what those disputing religious verities think of the cited assertion.

GAl T

Chris, since you started the egg throwing, wouldn't Bob be justified in claiming that you were the one whose intent was to incite anger? The atheist sign need not be seen as a "specific intent to incite and cause an emotion and/or physical response." It could be seen as an attempt to express an opinion. Egg throwing, OTOH, is an act of property destruction, or at least an attempt at property defacement....

#130 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2008-12-03 08:57 AM

I agree you're 100% correct in that instance. Also, I think you were judging this by my very first post where I was just being a smartass and wrote:

Tolerant Christian and Catholic girl that I am, I plan to egg any of those signs I see.

#90 | Posted by CalifChris

In that instance I alone was the one throwing eggs at the atheists' sign (and no one else was there throwing eggs back at me) and, yes, it should definitely land my butt in jail for destruction of property! lol

But the later and much longer post I wrote where both BuffaloBob and I throwing eggs at each other's display was a different set of made-up facts based on this --

Then you could certainly understand where the person was coming from who egged the Nativity Scene---right?

#100 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-12-02 10:26 PM

When reading that post, for fun I made up an entirely different scenario with a different set of facts about the egg throwing and had both BBob and myself throwing eggs at each other's display (and no one admitting to tossing the first egg lol).

The following debate we had was about which one of us could be considered (under the law) to be the one "most responsible" for inciting the egg throwing. I maintained his display had proof of intent to incite while my Navity scene did not.

But, in the end, according to LETUSREASON's post, he had a friend who was able to provide a real judicial review of the so-called facts in our made up scenario and ruled that BuffaloBob and I would BOTH have ended up in jail for the night! I just hope we wouldn't be put in the same jail cell together overnight 'cause in the morning I'm sure one of us would be facing murder charges. LOL

but they claim to know enough about Him to know who He's going to let into Heaven or not.

#227 | Posted by everlong

See, that's the problem i've always had with it. how can, i, little piss-ant that i am, suppose that i know what an entity, who can create time, space and dimension, thinks?

to me, religion has always been a very arrogant way of living and thinking. if i am religious, i have no more searching and learning and new ideals, because i know exactly what's gonna happen. 'this book over here tells me so, but not that book over there. and i'm absolutely certain of that'.

Now, here is the real catch. the religious DO know what god thinks, because god was created in their own minds. it is an attempt by them to understand the larger mysteries of the universe, in nice, easy to understand sound-bites.

FYI echoes my sentiments about Nancy and EZ, so he (?) can't be all bad. But I gotta wonder how someone can "believe" in someone and not need any proof. That "faith" thing again? The ability to believe something your common sense tells you cannot possibly be true? herm

Herm,

It all depends by what you mean by proof and what you require as proof.

I think evidence is a better word to use than "proof."

Most people who believe in God have come to accept his existence based on the model of a relationship rather than on some kind of scientific model.

Evidence for the existence of relationships are based on personal experience and feelings not on some scientific examination. Can you imagine:

"Do you love me?"

"Well, we'll see honey; the tests are not all in yet."

People accept the existence of God based upon their individual personal experience--the sense of awe and wonder at life and the world, the feeling of comfort that prayer brings, the feeling that the moral teachings that accompany most religions seems right and that the sense of meaning that a belief in God gives to the universe and then in turn to their own lives.

Reason does not preclude the existence of God and for many like Aquinas and Anselm it dovetails nicely with one's personal beliefs.

The search for God cannot begin in the test tube-no real relationship could. If that is the only place you can begin your search then you will be dissapointed. But if you come to the test tube after the initial search, then you will find that science and religion don't interfere by necessity.

PAX

That idea that belief in god is the study of an intellectually based relationship between man and god seems to ignore that the Christian god is a being who looks, thinks, speaks, and emotes analogous to man. Michelangelo painted him with a decidedly human backside. Who then made the particles that made him and why does he need a backside? The traditional idea of creation is that god molded the earth in human like hands like so much play dough.How do you reconcile this with particle physics? It can't be both. Do you go with the scientists or the shepherds?

That idea that belief in god is the study of an intellectually based relationship between man and god seems to ignore that the Christian god is a being who looks, thinks, speaks, and emotes analogous to man.

Hmmm, I thought the idea was the other way around. Man is analogous to God, but that is in image.

"Ignore that the Christian God is a being who looks, thinks, speaks, and emotes analogous to man...."

I'm not sure where you get this, other than to say it's not from the Bible. Maybe you're speaking of Christ, who after was a man, and not God the Father.

"God is love" is not a description of any human being I know. I have to agree with Grendel, you guys hit us on God being too human as well as too inhuman.

For a point of view (atheism) that makes such a fetish of consistency, that's pretty confusing.

"The religous do know what God thinks..."

To the extent God has told them what He thinks, yes.

That idea that belief in god is the study of an intellectually based relationship between man and god seems to ignore that the Christian god is a being who looks, thinks, speaks, and emotes analogous to man. Michelangelo painted him with a decidedly human backside. Who then made the particles that made him and why does he need a backside? The traditional idea of creation is that god molded the earth in human like hands like so much play dough.How do you reconcile this with particle physics? It can't be both. Do you go with the scientists or the shepherds?

Again, the false dichotomy.

Scripture is an account of the relationship between God and man as inspired by God but as recorded by man. It is described in terms understood by all humans: parent and child. Like all relationships our understanding of our parents grows over time. Our relationship with God began when were more or less children in our understanding of the world. We are now teens, and like all teens, we are rebelling against the parental relationship that fostered us. Let's hope we make it through adolescence in which we can have a more adult relationship with the divine.

In addition,

St. Paul said we understand God as through a glass darkly. I would qualify that even more that we understand God through a glass humanly.

BTW, lest you think the scientific world is free from anthropomorphizing in order to explain some truth, listen to scientists trying to explain something and evoke nature.

"The cell wants to divide. . ."

"The magnet feels the pull. . ."

"In regard to the expansion of energy, nature always balances its books. . ."

"Nature abhors a vacuum. . ."

PAX

"I'm not sure where you get this, other than to say it's not from the Bible."

Opps:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Image:
1. A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.
2. Physics An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction formed by a lens or mirror.
3. One that closely or exactly resembles another; a double: He is the image of his uncle.
Hans

"So God created him in his own image...."

Yes, of course. My point is that God doesn't act like people a great deal of the time. If you want to say God is anthromorphic, that's a bit of a problem.

Not to confuse you, but the concept of "image" is nearly as straightforward as you suggest. In fact, I'm certain it's not.

Whups---"Not nearly as straightforward".

How does God act?

My point is that God doesn't act like people a great deal of the time.

LOL!

I kind of think it depends on how you think of GOD.

Does God allow children to die? Well, my God doesn't allow children to die, my God says we have free will. That would mean to me that WE man allow children to die. But we would rather spend the necessary help on making better bombs than saving dying children.

I don't want anything like xmas stuff or anything else on govt. property.

I want the govt. to be separate from holidays:

xmas
the easter bunny
witches, spirits, jack'o lanterns
eat too much turkey day
mother's day
father's day
stupor bowl
world serious
other believers what ever
etc.

keep all that stuff separate from all the hard(ly) work I want/wish them to do.

No time for lollygaggin' and dick-knockin' around.

This whole thing can easily be fixed. Just outlaw all scenes and signs.

I'm Stickman and I approved this message.

"My point is that God doesn't act like people a great deal of the time."

The trick is in knowing when He is and when He isn't.

"Not to confuse you, but the concept of "image" is nearly as straightforward as you suggest. In fact, I'm certain it's not."

Contrariwise... If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't.

Hans

Hans gets to the nub of things, as usual.

The amount of spin that goes on to attempt to define a deity whose entire existence is based on the hearsay of men is amazing.

"Whose entire existence is based on the hearsay of men...."

I have a friend who is a veteran of WWII. He was on an aircraft carrier off Okninawa in 1945. He was walking the flight deck late at night when a blinding blue fire whizzed just passed him and into the ocean.

No one else saw that. If he had blinked twice he wouldn't have seen that. What he thought he did see was a Baka suicide rocket plane that just missed it's target and then was lost at sea.

Just hearsay. So much of existence is that way. Believe my friend or count him a liar?

I am calling it a night.

I would just like to add that the posts of Zed, CalifChris, Corky, Everlong, Petrous, FYI, Theoneneb were good reads.

PAX

Believe my friend or count him a liar?

#248 | Posted by Zed

I'm sure your friend is at least somewhat confident about what he saw, and I have no reason to call him a liar since I wasn't there. We can miss a lot in the blink of an eye. Almost everyone has seen things that no one else would believe if they weren't there. Would you question my stories about fishing trips, or would you take my word for it?

Knowing your political views I'm pretty sure you didn't take George's spin about WMD in Iraq to be true on faith. Should you have, or is it possible that humans often embellish the truth, even in the bible?

Theoneneb=Theoneb

Sorry

G'night.

I pretty much agree with the first post. Don't like the message, but I fully support the manner in which it was presented.

As for atheism in general? Meh. You can't really prove the existence of god, but you can't exactly disprove it either (no, I mean you really can't. A fundamental tenant of logic is that you can't prove that something is NOT something else. You have to prove something that is mutually exclusive with what you are trying to disprove). And, hey, you could argue that religion enslaves minds, but I think that I'm a pretty sharp cookie, and I'm somewhat religious. I guess.

The guy who runs the Freedom from Religion group--Dan Barker(?) was on with Medved today.

He was a born again Christian and decided he didn't believe anymore.

So now he does this for a living and doing pretty well.

"The guy who runs the Freedom from Religion group--Dan Barker(?) was on with Medved today."

Dan Barker is correct.

Interviewed on 06/17/2007 by the Drudge's on Briwo.

Hans

LETUSREASON

Sorry I didn't have a chance to get back earlier.
Your post --

This one's for Christine. I asked a judge about the situation you hypothesized on regarding the egg-throwing. Sorry dear, you're both going in the klink for "destruction of property". Probably both get out the next day, maybe do a few hours com-service, but that's it. But you (the Nativity holder who threw eggs at the Atheist display) don't get off with just a warning
So, the lesson here is, make sure no one sees you when you throw the eggs..

I got such a kick out of reading that part of your post. Geeze, I'm flattered my goofy post would even merit any kind of official judicial review! Like I wrote to someone above, tell that judge if BuffaloBob and I both had to spend the night in jail, just make sure to put us in separate cells. If we kept up debating (and throwing "verbal" eggs at each other) all night long, by morning one of us would end up charged with murder. lol

Incidentally, Chris, have you settled on a migration route yet?
(Totally off topic, I know.)

#151 | Posted by LetUsReason at 2008-12-03 11:27 AM


It's narrowing. Neither the East nor West coasts nor up north. Kicking around looking at states more towards the Southern end of the U.S. I'm so busy right now getting this place together to sell that I've put really looking hard as to a specific place to move more on the back burner for now. But things are slowly but surely falling into place. Any suggestions of a state to check out?

Decided to rent a place for the first year to make sure I want to settle down there first. I'm lucky to have the liberty to be able to just pick up and leave should I want to try a different state. Once I know for sure I've found a state where I'd like to settle down, then I can buy a place.

I've also been looking up job availability as I want to work part-time. I can do anything now, since I'm not starting out trying to make a career. Been there, done that. It's actually quite a liberating feeling when you can pretty much do whatever job you feel like. From substitute teaching to bartending. lol!

I was looking into various states' opportunities for substitute teaching (would like to teach history for grade or middle schoolers). Almost all the states have lots of openings and good benefits for substitute teaching jobs except for just a couple of states which aren't that great. SilverIronist and Oohrah gave me some good info a couple months ago as they both do substitute teaching and I followed up on it.

Substitute Teachings Jobs in US

But seriously, once I get this place on the market, I'll get really down to business on picking a place to move. I'm too busy now taking care of the business end of things. Being a Saggitarius, traveling is in my nature. But I will be glad, though, once the move is over with and I'm settled in somewhere. It'll all come together. One thing at a time. Once I've figure out a place to move, I'll let you know. Who knows, we could end up neighbors. lol

See ya later.

BuffaloBob

Hope you know when I wrote this in another post --

...tell that judge if BuffaloBob and I both had to spend the night in jail, just make sure to put us in separate cells. If we kept up debating (and throwing "verbal" eggs at each other) all night long, by morning one of us would end up charged with murder. lol

...that I was only kidding! Sometimes you take things too seriously. :)

ps -- My copy of "The 12th Planet" hasn't arrived yet. I really figure it should be here by the middle of next week at the latest.

Later.

Atheists...whistling in the dark and hoping they will only be worm food when this life is done.

The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God."

Christians--praying that their alien god from outer space is real.

Too bad--it isn't. The stories were all stolen from older religions.

You worship the God of a comic book.

"Christians--praying that their alien god from outer space is real.

Too bad--it isn't. The stories were all stolen from older religions.

You worship the God of a comic book."

Except, you know, that whole Jesus thing. That's pretty much the story of Christianity. Please don't say stuff if you're going to be wrong.

Also:
He's not really an "alien", more of an "entity" which isn't from "outer space" as much as "somewhere else".

Please, prove to me that God does not exist.

Whoops, sorry, GOD(s) (Generic Omnipotent Deity(ies))

Too bad--it isn't. The stories were all stolen from older religions.

Absolutely true. The fact that I started reading mythology & ancient history early as a kid didn't go over too well with my holy-roller family. They thought and continue to think I'm a pagan. I've tried to explain many of the "Bible" stories that aren't to them and they think I'm being corrupted. I think God wants us to learn & grow & expand on the discoveries of those who have gone before us, my opinion. I hate a narrow-minded, self-righteous anything, atheist or chrisitian. You can't learn anything from them and they refuse to learn anything rendering themselves useless. I believe in Jesus but it is an educated belief with my eyes open not blind faith giving me an excuse to put down others. Jesus didn't do that so why should we?

Postscript624

There is no evidence of any GOD. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. Not a word. Not a clue. No reference. The whole Jesus thing was stolen also--the virgin birth--the son of God--the resurrection---all stolen. The God worshipped in Churches and Mosques around the world is based on lies. Stolen stories from older religions.

So again.

There is no evidence of any GOD. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. Not a word. Not a clue.

"He's not really an "alien", more of an "entity" which isn't from "outer space" as much as "somewhere else"".

#259 | Posted by Postscript624 at 2008-12-04 07:39

The biblical god is an alien by any definition. Aliens are entities--the somepleace else he is from is not Earth---that makes it an alien.

There is no evidence of any GOD. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. Not a word. Not a clue.

Sorry BB, but I know there is a God.

I have no need to prove it to you but I have my own proof beyond just faith, intuition.

Moneywar

You have no such knowledge. No man ever has.

"Please, prove to me that God does not exist."

Sure, every act attributed to him has never happened. There is zero physical evidence in support of his existence. Faith is the only thing religous people cling to, but sadly even faith turns into ignorance in the face of insurmountable evidence!!

LM

He's heeeerrre....

www.youtube.com

Humans are funny creatures, and, unfortunately, not long for existance.

Faith and religion are truly seperate issues.
Faith stands stronger and more resiliant, than religions.
After all, you must first have faith in your existance, long before you can cultivate any religious beleif. To claim atheism, only to turn to a group to support such beleif, defeats that beleif. You create another religion.

I have faith in me. My faith does not call on the intervention or support of any other being. It stands alone. I beleive in no gods. I carry the weight of my existance, in success and failure, alone.
That so many massage their fears to create an answer, an excuse, to forestall that which they would do, anyhow.
Need proof?
The act of murder.
Or mass murder, as the case may be.

But then again, the circular and critical arguments, are entertaining, even from the athiest/agnostic.
I do not beleive.
Period.

"There is no evidence of any GOD. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. Not a word. Not a clue."

#262 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

That you exist should be evidence enough. That the universe exists provides ample evidence.

Not even you can answer the One Question:

How Did It All Begin?

Because you have a meager awareness of your existence, because you are under the impression that you "think," and because you have observed that God has not been actively involved with smiting Evil, changing the course of humanity daily, you, in your primate arrogance, your Hubris, make the sweeping universal pronouncement that There Is No God.

Religion is not proof of God.

You, nor I, nor anybody possess the intellect, the Mind, to encompass the Infinite.

"Well, like, duuuhhh..., it just sort of all happened by accident."

Yeah, right.

Christians believe that they have the monopoly on truth, yet when someone challenges them they are offended? Why? After all they supposedly believe that their beliefs are the only correct ones and everyone else is wrong and headed to eternal hellfire (because they don't believe in the correct dogmas).

When they are so easily offended it makes one wonder if they really truly believe they're own rhetoric or if they just want to believe it.

Congratulations you flawlessly demonstrated a perfect example of the logical fallacy known as "Argument from Ignorance".

You go to Hell because you don't believe correct dogmas? Read the Bible. It will at least make your critiques of Christianity more accurate.

If I were an easily offended Christian, I sure as hell would not come here.

You go to Hell because you don't believe correct dogmas? Read the Bible. It will at least make your critiques of Christianity more accurate.

#272 | Posted by Zed at 2008-12-04 09:11 AM | Reply | Flag

That's correct, if you don't believe that Jesus died and resurrected then you are going to hell (according to the ridiculous man-made book called the bible).

I've read it, have you??????

Dogma:

1 a: something held as an established opinion ; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b: a code of such tenets c: a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

You enter Heaven through the grace or mercy of God. Christ tried to demonstrate a simple way to gain that, which definitely did not include mindless obedience to rules (dogma).

Christ critiqued dogman as bleeding the humanity from religion. He thought religion was created for people, not for the rules.

"Christ created dogma...."

I'm sure he created dogman, too. Arf.

You enter Heaven through the grace or mercy of God. Christ tried to demonstrate a simple way to gain that, which definitely did not include mindless obedience to rules (dogma).

#276 | Posted by Zed at

Dogma and rules are not synonymous, as you would like them to be. Quite playing with semantics and look up dogma in the dictionary.

However, it doesn't matter what religious text you use to quote from be it the bible, book of mormon, koran, hindu vedas. These books don't have any foothold on reality nor any authority and have very little truth to them in comparison to the amount of nonsense. They're all man-made books and false idols.

You enter Heaven through the grace or mercy of God. Christ tried to demonstrate a simple way to gain that, which definitely did not include mindless obedience to rules (dogma).

#276 | Posted by Zed

I agree, Zed. Consider Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25: 31-46)

He said that judgment would be based on how we treated other people: "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

If you read the entire story, it never once mentions what or how you should believe, just how you should act. The bottom line is: "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these, you did it to me."'

It is also important to note that Jesus told this story shortly before he was betrayed and arrested. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that he knew his time was growing short and he was basically saying "Look, I'm not gonna be around much longer and you all still don't get it. So let me give it one more try."

IMADALLASGUY,

Christians don't have a monopoly on truth. Only Jesus Christ has THE MONOPOLY on ETERNAL LIFE, and He offers it to whosoever will believe and come under God's grace.

There are certain irreducible minimums when it comes to truth, and those who wish to be on the side of truth have no choice but to adhere to those irreducible truths (realities). They are more than dogmas.

(BTW, when you contradict those truths or does not show any grasp of them, a mature Christian will not be offended by you; but feel compassion for you for being too far from divine truths/realities).

IMADALLASGUY,

Christians don't have a monopoly on truth. Only Jesus Christ has THE MONOPOLY on ETERNAL LIFE, and He offers it to whosoever will believe and come under God's grace.

There are certain irreducible minimums when it comes to truth, and those who wish to be on the side of truth have no choice but to adhere to those irreducible truths (realities). They are more than dogmas.

(BTW, when you contradict those truths or does not show any grasp of them, a mature Christian will not be offended by you; but feel compassion for you for being too far from divine truths/realities).

#281 | Posted by takitez at 2008-12-04 09:38 AM

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You offer up a lot of conjecture and rhetoric but absolutely no definitive evidence to back up your claim. There's no more merit to it than me claiming that the only way to salvation is believing in the invisible fire-breathing dragon that lives in my garage. Then claiming that anyone who doesn't believe this obvious truth is going to suffer infinite torture.

You speak of truth, do you mean truth as defined by Webster's:

the body of real things, events, and facts

Or is truth whatever you claim it to be?

That you exist should be evidence enough.

Hardly. That I exist is due to modern medicine. Had I been born even 50 year earlier, I would have been a statistic long ago.

That the universe exists provides ample evidence.

I see no logic in that statement. What point has the universe? All that wasted space. We just found out about it less than a hundred years ago--up until then we thought the Milky Way was the only Galaxy.

Not even you can answer the One Question: How Did It All Begin?

True--but neither can you. Science has gone back as far as the Big Bang. Religion has made up a Magic Man in the sky to have made it all---and lots of competing Magic Men over the centuries. I'm sure you would come up with the old standby that god always existed when asked where god came from--but that response is for children who can't imagine god sitting in nothingness for trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years before creating the universe 15 billion years ago

Because you have a meager awareness of your existence, because you are under the impression that you "think," and because you have observed that God has not been actively involved with smiting Evil, changing the course of humanity daily, you, in your primate arrogance, your Hubris, make the sweeping universal pronouncement that There Is No God.

I make the statement because I know more of the history of the bible, and more about the bible itself, than you ever will you pompous, arrogant, ass.

Religion is not proof of God.

Put it on a bumper sticker with the rest of your philosophy.

You, nor I, nor anybody possess the intellect, the Mind, to encompass the Infinite.

Yet you feel qualified to lecture. Have you ever been called a pompous, arrogant, ass? Oh yeah...

"Well, like, duuuhhh..., it just sort of all happened by accident."

Yeah, right.

That's what the people on Jupiter think. Gee--we got a 15 billion year old universe. An Earth that wasn't even created until 5 billion years ago, and a sun that is a couple of billion years older than that. Then the Earth is barren of all life for about 3 billion years. Dinosaurs live 140 million years, and the planet goes through multiple extinctions---mankind has been around for about 200,000 years, and 99 percent of ALL life forms that EVER lived on this planet are extinct.

Sounds like an accident to me.

www.args.k12.va.us

#269 | Posted by ZOT at 2008-12-04 09:05 AM | Reply |

-the invisible fire-breathing dragon that lives in my garage

You have one of those, too?

It's hell on my car's paint job.....

There are more black holes in the universe than living things on the Earth. Magic Man done it, WOW!!!

"Quit playing with semantics...."

I just told you how the cow ate the cabbage. You can like it or not, but no one's playing.

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence...."

Sure. That was provided. You want, and are looking, for something else. My advice? Ask for it sincerely.

"Or is truth whatever you claim it to be....?"

That was Pilate's position, not Christ's.

"Quit playing with semantics...."

I just told you how the cow ate the cabbage. You can like it or not, but no one's playing.

#287 | Posted by Zed at 2008-12-04 10:06 AM

So that's the extent of evidence you are able to offer up to establish your extraordinary claims?

You're what I'd call a real truth seeker. Wow!!!! Impressive indeed. How could anyone argue with such convincing evidence as the cow ate the cabbage, therefore Magic Man done it.

At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

I do believe this sign is only meant to antagonize religious people. It may be in poor taste but I don't think it's terribly inflammatory (not on the magnitude of the "God Hates Fags" crowd). It wont sway anybody and will only give the Bill O'Rielly types more fodder.

I'm not a religious person (though, I did grew up in a Catholic family) in the sense that I belong to a religion or a church. I consider myself a spiritual person with faith. I believe the earth (and the universe for the matter) is an incredible place. Whether life on earth originated from abiogenesis, an alien "seeding" earth with RNA, or something from another dimension taking an active interest in our evolution, I don't know. And frankly, it does not matter. What we have on earth; the environments, the biodiversity, the evolution, human accomplishments, etc. are all pretty fucking amazing.

I don't believe in a god (in any literal, all-powerful being, obsessed with our morality kind of a sense) but do believe our higher purpose is to simply leave things better for our children and grandchildren than what we were given and to make the most of our time here. I think it's this, coupled with our finite existences that really make life interesting. I think it's easy for the theists to simply be "good" for a wonderful reward at the end (heaven). It's much more for an atheist (or no afterlife theist) to be "good" for the sake of others.

I actually enjoy mythology, with Christian mythology I'm most familiar with, quite a bit. I think the moral parables they explore are fascinating and also provide an interesting context to how people have been thinking for the past several thousand years.

Sorry for the rambling, I just really enjoyed reading this thread. I'm really not a hippie type nor a religious-basher, I promise!

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence...."

Sure. That was provided. You want, and are looking, for something else. My advice? Ask for it sincerely.

#288 | Posted by Zed at 2008-12-04 10:07 AM

Please please pretty please provide me with extraordinary evidence to establish your extraordinary claims. I'll burn in hell for all eternity if you refuse to provide the evidence to me, right?

Is this what you subconsciously want, anyone who questions your beliefs to be eternally tortured when you could have provided the evidence that they required for belief?

""Please, prove to me that God does not exist."

Sure, every act attributed to him has never happened. There is zero physical evidence in support of his existence. Faith is the only thing religous people cling to, but sadly even faith turns into ignorance in the face of insurmountable evidence!!

LM"
Thank you LM, for playing into my point nicely. Lack of evidence does not disprove anything! What evidence exists to do is alter the ODDS of somethings existance, but not act as a final truth. Like I have said before, you cannot prove that something isn't something. Example:
Mary is a girl. Prove that Mary is not a boy. To do this you have to prove something that is mutually exclusive with "being a boy", thus we prove that she is a girl (anatomical analysis and such) which is mutually exclusive with being a boy (usually).
Similarly you can argue that there is no evidence for the existance for God, however, until you can prove something that would be mutually exclusive to his existance, you cannot actually "disprove" his existance.

Faith is merely the acceptance of poor odds.

Katieberry:
You rule.

Oh, and finally LM:
"insurmountable evidence"
Your only evidence is lack of evidence. So please make sure to note that distinction.

"Every act attributed to him (God) has never happened...."

There must be a word that combines the ideas of "ironic" and "dogmatic".

However, if some posters knew of such a word, it might cause them to question their assumptions, and I'm pretty sure they won't stand for that.

Postcript624

You simply ignore the evidence. That doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. That the bible is composed of stories stolen, and altered, from older religions, is a fact. That makes the biblical god false.

You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free --- Jesus.

Spiritual realities....

The Spirit of God.

Human spirit.

Evil spirits.
______________________________
______________

Heaven: God's house.

Hell: abode of spirits.

Earth: where humans live, and they are invited to live with God in heaven.

Some people are in spiritual bondage (by ignorantly or unwittingly giving legal grounds to spirits to control aspects of their life). Some people are in spiritual blindess (by insisting in their own opinions and rationalising everything away).

You can understand it by experiencing it: being set free by the Spirit of God --- where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty (spiritual liberty).

Folks, settle your spiritual standing, because that is all that's going to matter for eternity --- the spirit never dies. So where are you headed?

(In the next world, everything you've learnt and come across on earth remains with you; everything is real: joy or despair, gratitude or regrets....)

BB:
"
"He's not really an "alien", more of an "entity" which isn't from "outer space" as much as "somewhere else"".

#259 | Posted by Postscript624 at 2008-12-04 07:39

The biblical god is an alien by any definition. Aliens are entities--the somepleace else he is from is not Earth---that makes it an alien."
Fair enough. I was using the term alien in the sense of "green men from mars", as opposed to the true definition. But yes, you are correct.

"Absolutely true. The fact that I started reading mythology & ancient history early as a kid didn't go over too well with my holy-roller family. They thought and continue to think I'm a pagan. I've tried to explain many of the "Bible" stories that aren't to them and they think I'm being corrupted. I think God wants us to learn & grow & expand on the discoveries of those who have gone before us, my opinion. I hate a narrow-minded, self-righteous anything, atheist or chrisitian. You can't learn anything from them and they refuse to learn anything rendering themselves useless. I believe in Jesus but it is an educated belief with my eyes open not blind faith giving me an excuse to put down others. Jesus didn't do that so why should we?"

You are absolutely right HBG. If there is a GOD(s) then I'm sure it would want us to learn and grow. And while a lot of the old testament and traditions are taken from other religions, the central core of christianity (ie. Jesus) is pretty uniquely Christian. Some of the stories about him, and the parables he tells may be stolen, but he, alone, is a Christian figure.

I would also like to distance myself from anyone who comes off as "religious-right" or who says "I know because I know", or even better asks "how the universe began" in an attempt to prove God's existance. That is a stupid manipulation of logic.

Religion should be challenged, because the truth has nothing to fear from investigation. Investigation only roots out the truth.

If we coddle people who have beliefs rooted in fantasy, superstition and myths we are doing the World a disservice.

It's these myths that hold us back as a species. Examples of misogyny, slavery, murder, stoning of disobedient children, selling of daughters into sexual slavery, hatred towards gays, hatred towards people who don't share the same beliefs, eternal damnation for thought crimes, sacrificing animals because god loves the smell of burning flesh etc. etc. abound in the Bible.

Religion asserts itself to stifle science and inquiry. We see this today with people demanding that "Intelligent Design" be taught in schools. We've seen it throughout history with people being burned at the stake for believing that the Earth is round or that the Earth revolves around the sun and is not the center of the universe.

The greatest disservice that could be done is to treat religion as taboo and sacred and beyond investigation. We should demand evidence, put religion under the microscope and investigate all its claims and judge it based on the validity of the claims that it makes and the evidence that it offers to establish those claims. If it's a fraud then the World would be better off knowing the truth.

In the short term, it may be advantageous for man to believe in superstition and myths, but it's detrimental to the progress of humanity in the long run.

After all it was secular thinking that drug religion kicking and screaming into acceptance that slavery, misogyny, discrimination, rape, murder, witch burning, stoning of disobedient children, heretic burning etc. etc. was immoral.

But is this religion, or the people who force it on others?
It's a bit reminiscent of the argument of anti-gay people who say that "all gays want to molest children" and then cite the actions of a few.
If The Bible is misinterpreted does that make it wrong?
The bigget fault I have with Christianity is the interpratation of The Bible as the literal word of GOD(s). Ignoring all the years of editing and mis-translation. However, I find many of the fundamental values to be good, despite their constant misapplication.

BuffaloBob, not that I pretended to have any of the answers. But that's okay, wallow in your Hubris, primate.

However, I find many of the fundamental values to be good, despite their constant misapplication.

#301 | Posted by Postscript624

But the question is, 'do you have a strong enough belief is the words of man and man's motives to devote your life and intellect to it.

Also, you guys need to reconsider the statement 'God created he him'. That means God created himself. I need someone to explain the physics of that transaction to me.

oh, i forgot, if you believe, you have no need for physics or logic or any of the other things that have advanced mankind.

Zot---are you not a primate?

There is no evidence of any GOD. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. Not a word. Not a clue. No reference. The whole Jesus thing was stolen also--the virgin birth--the son of God--the resurrection---all stolen. The God worshipped in Churches and Mosques around the world is based on lies. Stolen stories from older religions.

So again.

There is no evidence of any GOD. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. Not a word. Not a clue.

#262 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-12-04 07:54 AM | Reply | Flag:


Poor, Buffaloed Bob...shutting his eyes to avoid seeing the evidence all around him. The physical universe should be sufficient. If it exists, God created it. It could not create itself; and, if at any time there was nothing, there would be nothing now. The universe, to exist, requires a source with necessary being (eternal) and creative power. That Being has revealed Himself as God. Not only did He create the universe, He sustains it. Fallen humanity, craving autonomy, refuses to acknowledge God. To do so, would admit accountability to the Creator and the requirement to live as He directs; not for self.

18Forthe wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the
Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. Romans 1

May the spin begin.

"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."
Psalm 14:1.

Bob just prefers some ancient stories to other ancient stories and makes the mistake of assuming that WHEN a story is recorded is indicative of when the story supposedly took place.

The fact that the stories are all very similar goes more to their general credibility than to the accuracy of their specific ancient dates or our ability to determine such dates.

Macv1972

Please see my post 284. Your weak logic has been answered already. If you have some sort of response--catch up.

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night"
Genesis 1:16

Oops....it turns out there's only ONE light, and a reflector.

Corky

You don't know what you ar talking about. The stories predate the bible by thousands of years. They make more sense than their biblical counterparts, and parts of the bible are taken directly--word for word--from the first bible---the Enuma Elish. Passages like Genesis 1:26:

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

God said OUR---who else was around that would be like God. Accorsing to the bible--no one---so who was God talking about? In Enuma Elish, he is talking to other gods. God says time and again that there are other gods---yet, you simply call god a liar since what he says doesn't conform to what you think he should be saying. You invent your own god.

No, the written record of some similar stories pre-date the ancient Hebraic texts by some period of time, but were passed down as oral tradition in both cases prior to being recorded.

The most obvious conclusion being that these similar stories are about the same or similar events and were recording at different times in different places.

God said OUR

You missed the part about the Trinity, eh?

-They make more sense

That is merely your opinion.

"What do you mean by getting into heaven before? Are you employing a figure of speech merely to indicate that you believe one is more worthy of salvation than the other," - Grendel

Sorry for the late answer. Yep, a figure of speech. Snarky at best.

Corky

I didn't miss anything, and I've heard your weak retort from others with the same "logic". I guess you don't know much about the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is just that--no physical form. God says man was created in "our image and after our likeness." Which means God is physical---or as you would say--god is lying since you don't believe god is physical. Jesus was definitely physical, and not a spirit---but you miss the point here that is Jesus was around long before Mary--who was Jesus' mother if Jesus was alive before Mary. And the after our likeness---I doubt you even see those words or have ever thought about them. It means we are like God---with the emotions of God--hate love pettyness--jealousy---rage--
anger.

But the biggest points eluded you completely.

1. The words were taken directly from Enuma Elish---where they made sense.

2. The biblical God says many times---there is more than one God.

"But I gotta wonder how someone can "believe" in someone and not need any proof. That "faith" thing again?" herm

Humans are emotional beings as much, if not more, than they are logical beings. Yes, the "faith" thing. Like the faith I had that my wife loved me and was faithful. That my kids had that I loved them.

"The ability to believe something your common sense tells you cannot possibly be true?"

Meaningless statement, since my common sense tells me my belief makes sense.

FYI

Talking snakes makes sense to you?

Strange they haven't found snakes with legs in the fossil record.

Well, as Bob has no retort for the ancient dating of stories, then we can discount his proclamation that, "That the bible is composed of stories stolen, and altered, from older religions, is a fact. That makes the biblical god false"

"in our likeness" has to do with the creation having free will. You really should brush up on your ancient Hebrew.

Again, the fact that a saying associated with a story of an event is passed down in oral tradition and recorded by different people at different times has no bearing on "who's first".

And, again, that your opinion is that one recording of a saying makes more sense in one particular context than another is merely your opinion.

Maybe we need to get Marcus Borg in here to referee?

Borg is a Jesus Seminar guy who teaches that Jesus was merely a "good and wise teacher", not who he said he was.

But a good and wise teacher is inconsistent with someone who said the things he did about himself. Jesus was either a total lunatic or he was what he said he was.

Well, as Bob has no retort for the ancient dating of stories, then we can discount his proclamation that, "That the bible is composed of stories stolen, and altered, from older religions, is a fact. That makes the biblical god false"

#317 | Posted by Corky at 2008-12-04 12:51 PM | Reply | Flag

What are you talking about? Let's try again.

You don't know what you are talking about. The stories predate the bible by thousands of years. They make more sense than their biblical counterparts, and parts of the bible are taken directly--word for word--from the first bible---the Enuma Elish. Passages like Genesis 1:26:

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

God said OUR---who else was around that would be like God. Accorsing to the bible--no one---so who was God talking about? In Enuma Elish, he is talking to other gods. God says time and again that there are other gods---yet, you simply call god a liar since what he says doesn't conform to what you think he should be saying. You invent your own god.

#310 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-12-04 12:10 PM | Reply | Flag

Here is a link that shows the stories predate the bible by thousands of year. You really can ignore reality, can't you. I envy you that sometimes.

www.amazon.com

Here is an excerpt from the link:

They predate many parts of the Book of Genesis as well as other worldwide creation myths. Volume One includes this epic poem's English translation. It also includes information on parallels in Hebrew literature, the date and origin of the Babylonian creation legends, and more. Volume Two includes other accounts of creation, an Assyrian "Tower of Babel" story, and supplementary texts showing the actual cuneiform tablets

The story predates the bible by thousands of years--it predates the Hebrew religion. Genesis is based on this bible. That makes the biblical God false.

Buffalo,

Your arguments have merit as long as you maintain them in the framework of 1) a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible and 2) of a scientific evaluation of the existence/non-existence of "God".
But your arguments don't carry much weight in the realm of disciplines or methodology geared specifically to examining the existence of God. Note your statement that there is no "proof" of "God". It inherently presupposes that you have examined all possible aspects of physical proof. Which is false in its essence, since science itself will tell you it knows not very much of reality. And science limits itself to the physical world. Which in no way means there is nothing beyond the physical world it sees, merely that it is where it focuses its attention.

AS if repeating a fallacy makes it true.

Well, two can play that game, redundant as it is.

"No, the written record of some similar stories pre-date the ancient Hebraic texts by some period of time, but were passed down as oral tradition in both cases prior to being recorded.

The most obvious conclusion being that these similar stories are about the same or similar events and were recording at different times in different places.

#311 | Posted by Corky at 2008-12-04 12:17 PM"

Buffalo (part II),

Your arguments also do not in any way even deal with philosophical views re God's existence. For instance, nothing in what you have stated counters Anselm's Onthological Proof:
"1. Consider the proposition that "there is an entity such that no greater entity can be conceived."
2. Call this entity X. Must X exist?
3. By grasping the proposition, X exists in the mind, since we have conceived it.
4. Now suppose X does not exist in fact. (i.e., we have conceived an entity greater than which cannot be conceived but which does not actually exist.)
5. But it is greater to be than not to be.
6. We have now conceived an entity greater than X, (because we have conceived that it exists and X does not.)
7. But X was "an entity such that no greater entity can be conceived." This is a contradiction. So the entity must exist. And Anselm calls it God."

And this is just a very simple type of argument posited by philosophers.

Borg is a Jesus Seminar guy who teaches that Jesus was merely a "good and wise teacher", not who he said he was.

But a good and wise teacher is inconsistent with someone who said the things he did about himself. Jesus was either a total lunatic or he was what he said he was.

#319 | Posted by Corky

Not sure that is entirely accurate. Borg says "Jesus is one with God and shares the power and authority of God. And that he is the revelation of God. That he lifts us out of death into life and is the word and wisdom of God embodied in a human life. He is the disclosure of what a life full of God looks like."

He also says that some modern Christians have become uncomfortable with those claims, but that they should not be watered down. "For us as Christians, Jesus is not less than this, he is all of this. And we can say 'This is who Jesus is for us' without also saying "and God is known ONLY in Jesus'."

"Talking snakes makes sense to you?" - Buffalo

That's a literal interpretation of the Bible. Not something I believe in. You really need to understand how to frame your arguments to focus on the views/beliefs of the person you are debating with.

SA

I was going more by what the Jesus Seminar teaches than Borg in particular because I am not familiar with him. If you know what he teaches then I'll take that as Gospel, lol.

He has written several books you would probably enjoy reading -

Reading the Bible Again for the First Time, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, and The God we Never Knew are a few.

Thanks SA

Religion is a driving force of evil in the world. Especially the Christian religion.

And here I thought Jackasses were the driving force of evil in the world.

FYI

There is a simplified version thst goes like this:

1. God is that entity than which nothing can be greater.

2. The concept of God exists in human understanding.

3. God exists in one's mind but not in reality.

4.The concept of God's existence is understood in one's mind.

5. If God existed in reality, it would be a greater thing than God's existence in the mind.

6. Therefore, God in reality must exist.

I have corrected the statements.

1. The concept of a God is that of an entity that which nothing can be greater.

2. The concept of God exists in human understanding.

This is the fallacy of his argument--God does not exist in human understanding. The sentence should read.

2. The concept of God is imagined in human understanding.

3. God exists in one's mind but not in reality.

The fallacy is carried on--the sentence should be corrected to:

3. God is imagined in one's mind but not in reality.

4.The concept of God's existence is understood in one's mind.

This is an entirely new fallacy, and completely false, unless you can tell me how God came into existence.

5. If God existed in reality, it would be a greater thing than God's existence in the mind.

Again, God does not exist in the mind. God is imagined in the mind. The mind does not make things exist--the mind only imagines. So this sentence when corrected would state:

5. If God existed in reality, it would be a greater thing than a God imagined in the mind.

I would say that were true---but the first word--if--makes it all meaningless.

6. Therefore, God in reality must exist.

Which makes no sense at all. This "logic" states that the mind makes things exist. Just because I can imagine a god doesn't make the god real. Just because I can imagine flying pigs doesn't make them real.

Borg says "Jesus is one with God and shares the power and authority of God. And that he is the revelation of God. That he lifts us out of death into life and is the word and wisdom of God embodied in a human life. He is the disclosure of what a life full of God looks like."

~SAR

He also sez "Join the Zombie Jebus cult, Resistance is useless, you WILL be assimilated"

/Sorry, but that joke was practically inevitable from Spud's perspective.

Be Well.

Well, Seven of Nine thought it was funny anyway, Spud.

LOL!

Did you hear the one about the potato and the aquavit?

"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."
Psalm 14:1.

#306 | Posted by noah at 2008-12-04 11:58 AM

The wise man says it aloud

/Sorry, but that joke was practically inevitable from Spud's perspective.
#332 | Posted by dethspud

That's exactly where my mind was going. Wasn't there a poster here called Locutus at some point?

"I have corrected the statements."

Buffalo,

Nope, you didn't "correct" anything. You redefined the terms of a legitimate philosophical argument to fall within the framework of your criteria. Philosophically that makes yours a failing argument.

Buffalo,

The actual argument (translated) is:
And indeed we believe you are something greater than which cannot be thought. Or is there no such kind of thing, for "the fool said in his heart, 'there is no God'" (Ps. 13:1, 52:1)? But certainly that same fool, having heard what I just said, "something greater than which cannot be thought," understands what he heard, and what he understands is in his thought, even if he does not think it exists. For it is one thing for something to exist in a person's thought and quite another for the person to think that thing exists. For when a painter thinks ahead to what he will paint, he has that picture in his thought, but he does not yet think it exists, because he has not done it yet. Once he has painted it he has it in his thought and thinks it exists because he has done it. Thus even the fool is compelled to grant that something greater than which cannot be thought exists in thought, because he understands what he hears, and whatever is understood exists in thought. And certainly that greater than which cannot be understood cannot exist only in thought, for if it exists only in thought it could also be thought of as existing in reality as well, which is greater. If, therefore, that than which greater cannot be thought exists in thought alone, then that than which greater cannot be thought turns out to be that than which something greater actually can be thought, but that is obviously impossible. Therefore something than which greater cannot be thought undoubtedly exists both in thought and in reality."

Well, Seven of Nine thought it was funny anyway, Spud.

LOL!

#333 | Posted by SanAntonioRogue

Mmmmmm sexy, spandexed cyborg HAWTNESS!

Ta fer that reference!!!!ELENTYONE!1!!

Spud gives her a Nine of Ten.

That's exactly where my mind was going. Wasn't there a poster here called Locutus at some point?

~Hagbard Celine

The "Pimp My Captain" Picard tricked out with all the latest Borg tech?

The dim recesses of Spud's conciousness resonate with that notion but teh googles, they do nuthin!

Be Well.

/Yes, that link is hawter than Jeri Ryan at a swingers party, why do you ask?

having the concept of something greater than which does not exist does not mean that thing exists in the mind. Only the concept of it exists, not the thing itself. I'm speaking only of what is occuring in the mind, mind you.

Did you hear the one about the potato and the aquavit?

#334 | Posted by GOD

Are you there God? It's me, Spud.

Nope, Spud aint heard that one.

Do tell.

Be Well.

/Must be tough being God cos when people start to tell you a joke you must already know the punchline.
//Where's the fun in that?

//Where's the fun in that?
#341 | Posted by dethspud

That's what Leto complains about in God Emperor of Dune.

FYI

Can you make things exist in your mind? If not--your point is invalid. If so--you should be the richest man on the planet. The statement was flawed. The mind imagines--the mind does not make things exist. Deal with that reality.

Your point was refuted unless you can make something exist with your mind.

FYI,

Anbody who brings Anselm to a discussion is okay in my book.

I was going to attempt to add to this conversation, but you and Corky certainly don't need any help. Great stuff here.

As you probably know, don't expect BB to acknowledge any legitimacy to any aspect of your argument.

A debate with him is liking serving a tennis ball against the wall. You can play for hours as the ball will always bounce back to your side of the court, but when it is all said and done, you have enjoyed a great work out and have improved your game, but the wall has not moved a bit.

Cheers

"Zot---are you not a primate?"

#304 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Yes, indeed I am.

I just try not to fling as much poo as you do.

Can you make things exist in your mind? If not--your point is invalid. If so--you should be the richest man on the planet. The statement was flawed. The mind imagines--the mind does not make things exist. Deal with that reality.

Your point was refuted unless you can make something exist with your mind.

I have read the argument for years and while it always feels like some kind of logical sleight of hand has been performed, greater minds than yours and mine have wrestled with Anselm and have not utterly dispelled his argument.

Your point is precisely Anslem's point. Thinking of something greater does not cause God to exist. Employing Aneslm's logic necessitates that God does exist. Read through FYI's explanation again; despite the logic being sound, people have difficulty accepting the conclusion.

(Wop!) the sound of a tennis ball being hit against the wall.

Cheers

"Anbody who brings Anselm to a discussion is okay in my book."

Grendel,

I was tempted to bring in Aquinas' argument or perhaps Augustine's which are simpler (though I don't really understand them totally) but it didn't matter. I was trying to make a point that the "science" argument isn't the only argument which can be made, nor is it the only valid one. And more importantly, that ripping the literalism of the Bible in no way deals with or counters the various philosophical arguments which have been made over the years. As a counterpoint to BBob's argument that there is no "proof". But, yeah, his response was to reframe the argument from the vantage point of his chosen conclusion rather than deal with it in its philosophical arena.

Btw, I answered your question to me (made yesterday) earlier in this thread.

I do wonder at the understanding of people who make the argument that no physical "proof" exists. I am puzzled how they are so certain that they can interpret the universe so unequivocally.

FYI,

I did read your earlier response, thanks.

I do wonder at the understanding of people who make the argument that no physical "proof" exists. I am puzzled how they are so certain that they can interpret the universe so unequivocally.

These are people who are purely materialists and as such science is the sole arbiter of reality. (What a narrow epistomology that is.)

(Science, of course, it always about quantifying--measuring something. God by the very definition is unquantifiable--thus science can never be anything more than mute on the question.)

What few realize materialists are loth to admit is that the very notion of science and the scientific method utterly rests or is dependent on the non-material. In other words in order for us to understand the concrete we are utterly dependent upon the abstract. To be able to know the material is to rely on the immaterial.

For what is the mind? It is where our essence resides, but the materialist can never examine the mind--only the brain--yet he does so with the mind.

Keep on batting those tennis balls to BB. And if ever do quote Aquinas, this Dominican trained, individual will smile a big smile.

All the best,

Cheers

What few realize materialists are loth = What few materialists realize or are loth. . .

Grendel--the logic is not sound. The mind does not make things exist. Nothing "exists" in the mind except thoughts--imagination. The argument takes thought, imagination, and makes it reality.

That doesn't work.

Let's take the logic to where it leads.

look at the last two of the argument as put forth by FYI

6. We have now conceived an entity greater than X, (because we have conceived that it exists and X does not.)
7. But X was "an entity such that no greater entity can be conceived." This is a contradiction. So the entity must exist. And Anselm calls it God."

This is much like--can God make a rock so big He can't lift it. It already says X does not exist---then it says BUT If X existed then it would be greater than just thinking about X existing--so X must exist since I thought of something greater than my imagined concept of God. The contradiction makes it false--not true. It says X does not exist, then it says X exists.

But then, this is a little over your head. You can go back to the personal attacks now. You can handle that.

I wonder if you read this in the book I just wrote about, 'Save By the Light'? That is exactly how the author explained his experience. At least part of it.

Everlong,

I didn't read the account I mentioned in a book but saw the person interviewed on TV. I think it was on a show about near death experiences, so I bet it was the author of the book you mentioned is the person that I saw. Thanks for the info.

"oh, i forgot, if you believe, you have no need for physics or logic or any of the other things that have advanced mankind."

Actually I have a great respect for logic. In fact, I incorporate it into my spirituality (I'm Deist).

On the other hand it is you who has no respect for logic, otherwise you would know (and I feel like this must be the millionth time saying this) that you can't prove that something is NOT something. You have to prove something with mutual exclusivity to your original subject.

Lack of evidence certainly shows that it is UNLIKELY that GOD(s) exist, but that doesn't mean that it is certain. Faith is the acceptance of poor odds. This is why most religions have to promise some sort of hefty reward for belief (usually eternal paradise) combined with little risk, or at least have the benefits greatly outweigh the risks. Otherwise no one would follow the religion.

And then this leads into Pascals Wager (hedge your bets....)

God can't create multiverses?

He'll be pissed if he hears that.

Yes, she will be. :-)

Yes, she will be. :-)

Oopsy!

That's what Leto complains about in God Emperor of Dune.

#342 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Spud knows.

Best. Dune Book. EVAR!

Spud's read'em all multiple times but that particular book Spud has re-read at least fifty times by now.

The excellent Miniseries on the SciFi channel stopped just when Leto accepted the sand trout skin and Spud lives and hopes and prays that one day they will continue the process and make that book into the visual movable feast that it has always had the potentiality to become.

Fer the Duncan Idaho clones alone, fer fook's sake.

Be Well.

"Nothing "exists" in the mind" - Buffalo

Out of curiosity, how do you explain away the "existence in the mind" of love, hate, etc. What I see in "reality" are the effects of love, hate. I don't see them, though.

Re your "refutation" of Anselm's argument, Aquinas stated it better: "Perhaps not everyone who hears this word "God" understands it to signify something than which nothing greater can be thought, seeing that some have believed God to be a body. Yet, granted that everyone understands that by this word "God" is signified something than which nothing greater can be thought, nevertheless, it does not therefore follow that he understands that what the word signifies exists actually, but only that it exists mentally. Nor can it be argued that it actually exists, unless it be admitted that there actually exists something than which nothing greater can be thought; and this precisely is not admitted by those who hold that God does not exist."

Note the last sentence. However, he also qualifies his objection to the argument with his argument for the existence of God through his "nature of efficient cause" argument.

Bottom line is, though, as Grendel stated, better minds have debated the issue without reaching a consensus. This, minimally, means there is no "proof" that God does _not_ exist. And it admits that the argument is a metaphysical one, one where science does _not_ have the final word.

Yes, she will be. :-)

~Gal Tuesday

Silly Gal, everybody knows the Flying Spagetti Monster is a guy.

Hence the "noodle".

^_^

Be Well.

/Yes, Deth is "Jest Awful" Spud.
/All apologies fer that.
///Is kind of a blogform of Tourettes.

Yeah, I liked the miniseries except for the fact that the fremen looked way too L.A./clean to be desert dwellers.

How many Idaho's did Leto make?

And Bob, by the way, that argument fails if we redefine God as something outside of our "plane of understanding" as opposed to "something greater than everything else". However, were I to roll with your point, I would respond thus:
Can you go 1 mile north of the north pole? No. Because, by definition, that would leave the defined set of values for which "north" exists, and thus you would have a completely different plane. Similarly, can you go one step higher/bigger than God? No. Because to do so would involve stepping into some other "plane" on which God does not exist. So, if we accept the existence of God in our world as "true" and we confine him to something that lies directly concentric to, and in contact with our universe, we get something that is omnipotent for us, but may in fact lie inside another plane of existence, on which there are even greater entities.

As to if God could create a rock so heavy he could not lift it, my answer would be:
Not in our existence, no. However he may be able to create another set of existence in which he could perform such a task, where this would not violate his definition. Think "mobius strip" which in two dimensions crosses itself, but in three it doesn't. God could, instead of creating a new dimension, maybe create another set of existence in which he creates new laws which would allow him to do this. What "form" this would all take is beyond what we can comprehend, as a 2D person couldn't understand 3D in any depth.

"God can't create multiverses?
He'll be pissed if he hears that.
Yes, she will be. :-)"

Well, she did piss at the accusation. That was how this multiverse was created.

"However he may be able to create another set of existence in which he could perform such a task, where this would not violate his definition." - #624

So you also believe in the multiverse theory. Beware of Corky!

Ummmm....I'm not sure if "multiverse" is really an adequate description. That would imply to some degree that we share a common metaphysical location. As I said, it would be more of a different set of existence, which wouldn't really be a multiverse, more of something that we can't comprehend.

But this isn't the crux of my argument, that was just me twisting around BBob. My big point is up a bit.

"For us as Christians, Jesus is not less than this, he is all of this. And we can say 'This is who Jesus is for us' without also saying "and God is known ONLY in Jesus'."

Rogue,

Works for me.

FYI

Out of curiosity, how do you explain away the "existence in the mind" of love, hate, etc. What I see in "reality" are the effects of love, hate. I don't see them, though.

Those are concepts--they do not exist in the physical world. Same as the biblical God.

Bottom line is, though, as Grendel stated, better minds have debated the issue without reaching a consensus. This, minimally, means there is no "proof" that God does _not_ exist. And it admits that the argument is a metaphysical one, one where science does _not_ have the final word.

There may be a God of some sort, but we know nothing of it. The point I was making is that the biblical God is false since the stories are all stolen from older stories from older religions, and the older stories are much more logical than their pale biblcal counterparts. A God based on false, stolen, stories is a false God.

#356 | Posted by fyi at 2008-12-04 04:25 PM | Reply | Flag

Not so, he may well exist. Just because he is based on stories does not mean that he is false! We may just not understand him as he exists right now. Was it Reagan who claimed that his party had left him behind? Either way, maybe the religion has just left God behind. Read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett, it kind of goes into this a bit.

Well, she did piss at the accusation. That was how this multiverse was created.

LOL FYI's multiverse creation myth.

"Those are concepts--they do not exist in the physical world." - Buffalo

There's an idea. When your spouse or girl/boyfriend asks if you love them, tell them love doesn't exist. Wonder how well that will work. Yeah, snarky, but the point is valid. Reality doesn't consists only of the physical world. And the essence of my debate(s) with you.

"The point I was making is that the biblical God is false ..."

Yeah, I mentioned that above. You're on stable ground when you stick to that topic in a debate with a Bible literalist. Extending that concept by demanding that a metaphysical issue be determined strictly by science or physical "proof" gets you into a different debate. That's the debate I jump into.

"LOL FYI's multiverse creation myth."

Naw, just my explanation of the Big Bang (ahem).

"I'm not sure if "multiverse" is really an adequate description. That would imply to some degree that we share a common metaphysical location. As I said, it would be more of a different set of existence, which wouldn't really be a multiverse, more of something that we can't comprehend." - #624

Actually it's what Zat brought up, I believe earlier in this thread. The concept that each action spins off a new universe (or multiverse). The issue with the term "multiverse" is that if we can in any way access that "universe", it is merely part of our universe. If we can't, it's another universe, properly called a "multiverse" since there would be an infinite number of them. Or so I was told by a physicist. The whole thing is interesting though also amusing.

"Actually it's what Zat brought up, I believe earlier in this thread. The concept that each action spins off a new universe (or multiverse). The issue with the term "multiverse" is that if we can in any way access that "universe", it is merely part of our universe. If we can't, it's another universe, properly called a "multiverse" since there would be an infinite number of them. Or so I was told by a physicist. The whole thing is interesting though also amusing."

Fair enough, but I'm not so sure on a multiverse being created during every action. I'd have to look into it more. My response, as I said above, is just a circumstance in which BBob would be wrong.

Also, a multiverse seems to imply some resemblance to our own universe, which is where I feel that my term splits off.

There's a sucker born again every minute

Ok, #624, but you still better beware of Corky!

Can't someone just call the Pope and ask him if it's true???

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear

- Thomas Jefferson (3rd American president)

"Do you believe in God? That's the wrong question. Does God believe in us?" - Old man, La Haine

"What if God is a woman? Not only am I going to hell, but I'll never know why." - Adam Ferrara

"No matter how i probe and prod i cannot quite believe in God. But oh! I hope to God that he unswervingly believes in me." E.Y.Harburg

"To be or not to be, that is the question." - some crazy dude talking to himself.

Ah, Tom Jefferson. The wingnut talibaptists need Ol Tom to be a conservative religionist, despite the fact that every word he ever uttered, even in his sleep, was pure deism.

He wrote the principles that this country was founded on.

But the christians need to believe that this country was founded for jesus to have a rich place to live.

I honestly believe the most influential human ever was jesus. I believe he existed and he was not god. IMHO Thomas Jefferson was the second most influential human ever.

The irony is that they both spoke the same message. and neither was a christian!

But then, this is a little over your head. You can go back to the personal attacks now. You can handle that.

Personal attacks?

My dear BB, you wound me. I have characterized your method of debate in a way that apparently you don't like, yes that is true, but personal attack? I have not done so.

My only response would be to quote someone else on this thread, and his reaction in assertion to other people who disagree with him.

Grow up!

Would you characterize that admonition to a person you are debating as a personal attack? Do you think such an assertion is meant to critize the other person as immature and childish?

No, I didn't think so. Neither do I then. So with the same intention and spirit of the person that I am quoting I offer the same remark.

Grow up.

Cheers

Hey, this is going to get immature for a second, so please bear with me:
Someone please respond to what I said about not being able to prove that something ISN'T something! I've worked on this idea for a while, and I would really like some feedback. Honestly, I want someone to poke a hole in it. Thanks!

And now back to the regularly scheduled maturity level.

"Not being able to prove something isn't something..."

Define it in a given way and it's easy to prove anything is anything else. It's like those silly logical paradoxes BB thinks mean something.

Not necessarily. As I've said, you have to prove something mutually exclusive. Which is hard with God, mostly because he's omnipotent, so he really doesn't have much to be mutually exclusive with.


"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night"
Genesis 1:16

Oops....it turns out there's only ONE light, and a reflector.

#309 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-12-04 12:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Bible is God's revelation to man; not a scientific encyclopedia or textbook. It conveys what He has chosen to reveal, often in language accomodating our perspective.

"12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" John 3:12

We use similar language even today. Otherwise, we should demand that all weather forecasters, media talking heads, etc. stop using scientifically inaccurate terms such as sunrise and sunset. And no more walks in the moonlight for you Dun For.


Macv1972

Please see my post 284. Your weak logic has been answered already. If you have some sort of response--catch up.

#308 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-12-04 12:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're still buffaloed, Bob. Putting your trust in fallible man who tells you what you prefer to hear. Giving any credence to Scripture threatens your comfort zone.

It's understandable.

"13These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:13-14

Unless and until God gives it, you won't get it.

Grendel

Sorry for my last post to you. I completely forgot your inability to debate--then I read your post and responded to it. Don't worry, I won't do either in the future. Don't let that stop your personal attacks though--I'm having a contest between you and Goatman. Bad news---you're losing.

"Those are concepts--they do not exist in the physical world." - Buffalo

There's an idea. When your spouse or girl/boyfriend asks if you love them, tell them love doesn't exist. Wonder how well that will work. Yeah, snarky, but the point is valid. Reality doesn't consists only of the physical world. And the essence of my debate(s) with you.

The point is not valid. I never said love doesn't exist---I said love doesn't exist in the physical world---don't debate by taking things out of context. If you rebut something I say--use the whole statement. There is a vast difference between concepts that are real and don't exist in a physical sense, and concepts that are real and do exist in the physical sense.

Love is a concept that is real, but doesn't exist in the physical sense.

The Moon is a concept that is real and exists in the physical sense.

You seem to be assuming that if you can think of something, it must be something physical--something you can pick up and throw out a window. Love and hate are not like that. If you have a piece of love--take a picture of it and prove me wrong. The concept of God is different than the concept of love in that God is supposed to have created the physical universe. Such a being must have some sort of physical form--must be real---and in fact, every religion claims such reality. That is much different than love. Your point is refuted.

"The point I was making is that the biblical God is false ..."

Yeah, I mentioned that above. You're on stable ground when you stick to that topic in a debate with a Bible literalist. Extending that concept by demanding that a metaphysical issue be determined strictly by science or physical "proof" gets you into a different debate. That's the debate I jump into.

The biblical God is proven false because the basis for belief in the biblical God is the Bible. The Biblical God is based on stories stolen and changed from older discarded religions.

#368 | Posted by fyi at 2008-12-04 05:10 PM | Reply

It's like those silly logical paradoxes BB thinks mean something.

#379 | Posted by Zed at 2008-12-04 07:10 PM | Reply | Flag

You mean those paradoxes you won't discuss--those paradoxes? Those paradoxes you accept as logical? I thought so.

Simple fact. The bible is composed of stories stolen from older discarded religions. That makes the biblical God a false God. That's reality. Deal with it. For once.

Not so, he may well exist. Just because he is based on stories does not mean that he is false!

#365 | Posted by Postscript624 at 2008-12-04 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag

I didn't say he was based on stories. Please read carefully. I said the biblical God is based on STOLEN, FALSE and EDITED versions of stories from OLDER RELIGIONS. Unless you believe the older religions. In which case there are lots of Gods--just like the bible says---just like the biblical God says.

That makes the biblical God false.

"Those paradoxes you won't discuss....?"

No, not those. Just the silly ones you like.

Damn. I've been mean to an atheist. Someone put up a billboard.

"Love doesn't exist in the physical world...."

Well, that means it's not real then. So forget about Betty Jo Biolowski. She's hoping for a different sort of universe than your provide.

No, not those. Just the silly ones you like.

#387 | Posted by Zed at 2008-12-04 11:17 PM | Reply |

You don't discuss anything. You just snipe from the bushes and make no sense at all. Stick with it--its working for you.

"Love doesn't exist in the physical world...."

Well, that means it's not real then.

If it doesn't exist in the physical world--it doesn't exist? What a shallow thought process you have.

Next please--this one is too far gone..

#389 | Posted by Zed at 2008-12-04 11:20 PM | Reply

Bob, you do understand you switched roles with me? See you in church.

Zed

You do inderstand your logic is faulty and I switched places with no one? Probably not, but that is what happened.

Show your logic--and see your flaw.

BuffaloBob], you do understand you switched roles with me?
See you in church.

-- Zed

Yeah, when hell freezes over. lol

Show your logic--and see your flaw.

bOoB, you wouldn't know logic if it jumped up and bit you in the ass. I mean, your logic is: if I don't show you something, I'm a liar.

LOL

So would Darwin!

"I didn't say he was based on stories. Please read carefully. I said the biblical God is based on STOLEN, FALSE and EDITED versions of stories from OLDER RELIGIONS. Unless you believe the older religions. In which case there are lots of Gods--just like the bible says---just like the biblical God says.

That makes the biblical God false."

Not necessarily. The IDEA of a god is more or less the same, but then again that concept is pretty standard through most religions.
And did I EVER say that I was only supporting a bilical God?
I may have slipped a bit, but notice my use of the acronym GOD(s) (Generic Omnipotent Deity(ies))

And if you looked, Bob, I actually put some thought on your paradoxes.

"on STOLEN, FALSE and EDITED versions of stories from OLDER RELIGIONS"
And you also seem to have a poor understanding of The Bible. There's the old testament, which is a lot of stuff about the history of the Jews, and is essentially the Torah, but condensed. Then there's the New Testament, in which Jesus comes down and tells everyone about God and how bummed he is that we're all jackasses. He goes around, does some stuff, performs some miracles, gets crucified, rises from the dead, and then goes back to daddy. So actually the things that were stolen are usually the traditions and rituals, not the stories themselves. Christmas, for example, celebrates the birth of Christ, but is actually a "pagan" holiday, which celebrates the winter solstice. The Church just retrofitted Christ onto that idea, so as to make the religion more palatable to the "heahans". Lol, I've been looking for a way to use that word. But, in any event, it isn't actually the stories that were stolen, although you're right that The Bible has been heavily edited and changed throughout the years (which is why I have such a problem with literalists). However the core still remains original.

""Love doesn't exist in the physical world...."
Well, that means it's not real then." - Buffalo

Nope, it only means it doesn't exist in the physical world. You have no proof that the physical world is the only possible reality. Zilch, zip, nada. You do keep insisting that "god" must be physical, but that isn't the issue, it is whether God exists. "Metaphysical" is not the same as "physical". That's why they are different words.

BTW, I did always wonder if there was intelligent life in the universe. But, since there is no proof of it, zilch, zip, nada, then it obviously can't exist. Thanks you clearing that up.

Sign should have said, too:

"Atheists have special needs, too, by golly"

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