Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, November 30, 2008

A small group of people managed to cheat online poker players out of more than $20 million, a crime that would've gone undetected if it hadn't been for the players themselves, reveals 60 Minutes.

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Very old news.

Playing poker online in the US is NOT illegal. The banks can't transfer funds, but playing isn't illegal. See the UIGEA, that sneak legislation that attempted to make it illegal but failed.

Places like Spade Club also found ways around the whole problem by setting up monthly memberships, even if it isn't quite the same as dropping $100 and playing $1 games....

No wonder I no longer watch 60 minutes...way past its prime in today's information society.

The simplest cheat is still the best.

Log on with a dozen different accounts. Three or four of you versus one victim. Two or three versus two victims. Try to think of ANY card game that you could win when it's EVERYONE COOPERATING AGAINST YOU, and freely communicating in a way that you can't hear.

Channel all the bets to the strongest hand(s), and you'll almost ALWAYS win against your victim.

I don't cheat at games like these, I program them. This is the tiniest tip of the iceberg, but this is an example of the kind of cheating that there's no cure for.

The only way THESE people fouled up was keeping the accounts around too long. Just keep starting up new accounts. Even 'monthly' accounts can last one month. With 'Spades' there's no profit motivation for cheats. With Poker, a few sacrificial accounts is a business expense. Write it off on your taxes. 'Professional Poker Cheat' would look great on your 1040. The folks at H&R Block would flip. As long as you don't live in Nevada, there aren't likely to be any laws against it.

Now factor in using software to make the problem 'easier'. After all, decent poker AI is relatively straight-forward, especially if it's brute-force. Consider how much better it can be when it has access to most of the hands in the game. You could just peck in the contents of your hands, and rule out and calculate the odds of various hands in your opponent's hand. Practice all you like in consequence-free 'free' games, then move on to the money games when you're unbeatable. Modified or custom-written client software can make this dirt simple, but is in no way required to cheat at cards.

From very early in online gaming, people would sit and relay moves to 'chessmaster' type programs. It didn't make them 'proud'. It just made them feel good to make you lose. You thought you sat down to play a noob, but instead you're facing 'deep blue' with some little snot echoing your moves to it, and its moves back at you.

With card games, people would simply chat with you on the keyboard, and talk with your other opponent(s) on the cellular phone. They did this back in 1990, before most of you ever heard of the 'internet'. They're very good at it by now. Would two or three people cooperate to fleece you in a high stakes game? YES.

You don't need to make online gambling illegal. Just expose and advertise how irredeemably crooked it is, and MOST people will stop playing. The rest? Well, just STUPID, and if they weren't losing at poker online, they'd be wasting it some other way.

Think IP filtering can tell the difference? Think again. How many cellular network accounts could I plug into how many computers at one desk? Yeah, $300 a month would make for an expensive internet bill, so even cheaper, most people still don't know how to secure their wireless routers. In most middle-class neighborhoods, you can access several open routers at the same time. Use a handfull of $10 USB wireless adapters and virtual machine software, and you could literally be 'eight people' logged into eight networks on one machine with a couple of monitors. PEOPLE DO IT.

Playing is not illegal, but running an online casino is. There are dodges but you have to be careful.

Either way I have always suspected online poker of being riddled with cheaters so while I will play for fun or very very low stakes I will not play for real money.

I"ve lost more online tournaments than I can count to rag hands that hit 2% shots.

I've given up playing for money online. Seen too many things that give me pause, and too many drunk idiots who get lucky. I'll take my few grand in winnings over the last couple of years and call it a day. No more real money for me.

Been playing at FullTilt for a couple of years. Even there I have my doubts. I never played the stakes these cheats did, but still, something's fishy.

Use a handfull of $10 USB wireless adapters and virtual machine software, and you could literally be 'eight people' logged into eight networks on one machine with a couple of monitors. PEOPLE DO IT.

~Pingnak

Interesting stuff, Ping. Spud had always suspected that this type of thing was going on but not quite how it was being done or to wot extent. Yer post was a real eye opener to the spuddish one.

Poker in person in an informal nonprofessional gaming enviroment with friends is always a real kick but over the intrawebs it's too impersonal and repititious.

Be Well.

Spud,

Agree with you about ping's post, I knew funny stuff was up but never when where why how and never really cared to try and figgure it out. Just checked and most I could be from my couch is 2 people. It used to be 3 but one looks like he secured. Maybe his router died cause it changed names too.

Anyway I won a couple of tournaments but the ones that are free to enter have pretty low prizes and they just take too damn long to play, worst I was in lasted over 30 hours, I lasted 18 hours then check folded for another 6 till I ran out of chips. Came in 23 in that one, not bad for not playing the last 12 hours.

Impersonal, repetitious, and above all, crooked.

Would you play in an environment where everyone ELSE except you could show each other their cards, whisper to each other, etc.?

For peanuts, with friends, around a real table: FUN.

Online, with cheating strangers, and money on the line: NOT FUN... well unless you're the cheater. That could be fun, as long as you don't get caught with jurisdiction clear enough to cause legal consequences.

If you have thousands to blow this way, and no friends with similar money allergies, go to a real casino with real rules, and make a vacation of it. Most of them will comp your room and meals, and there are usually other 'services' you won't find at home.

Oh, and thinking about it, you don't really need multiple network connections. Just use proxy servers.

worst I was in lasted over 30 hours, I lasted 18 hours then check folded for another 6 till I ran out of chips. Came in 23 in that one, not bad for not playing the last 12 hours.

~TW

Wowsers, that's waaay too long.

Longest Spud ever lasted in a tourney was about 12 hours.

It seriously stops being fun after a while and when you start to do the math it's just not worth it.

Maybe it's the neighbourhood Spud lives in but their aint one unsecured router to be found no how.

Glad to see yas TW as always!

/That's always a safe bet! ^_^

Be Well.


You mean trusting my Credit Card to others online who have nothing better to do all day than think of ways to cheat people out of their cash is a bad idea?

Who would have thunk it?

P.T. Barnum was right.

Yeah Sense there is that. Although if they have paypal ...

Good to see you spud, I been around lurking a bit and posting when I have 30 free min. So about once a day or less. 4 day weekend is nice to catch up but there will be hell to pay tomorrow for it. Ah well at least it makes the day go by quickly.

Nah. Your credit card is safe on-line. If someone takes money without permission, you're still only liable for $50, no matter what the folks who sell you credit insurance tell you.

Of course, setting up some kind of automatic debit to run an account grants that permission, and that permission is difficult to revoke even if you cancel the card....

As for on-line tournaments, who says ONE person has to play your seat? Why not play with half a dozen good poker players, who take turns? Play two or three accounts each while the others nap. Occasionally, they'll even end up on the same tables and can cooperate there. A lot to be said for being fresher than everyone else because you played the tournament in two hour shifts, took walks, had fresh meals and bathroom breaks, etc. Even having more than one set of eyes glance at each others' hands helps. Not least having people to talk to INSTEAD OF those in the game will keep you from giving away tells, or even better, help to spot them.

As the tournament progresses, the likelihood that you'll have multiple accounts in one game gets higher, which can lock that top spot in for your group. Who knows? You might even have the final game be nobody but people in your group and then play ONE friendly, honest game.

After all, 1/6th or even 1/10th of [BIG PRIZE] is far better than the [NOTHING] you are likely to get playing alone. Even if you cheat like hell and lose anyway, you still learned lessons for the next try.

Did I mention online gambling was crooked?

Hell, don't even get me started about 'legitimate' gaming machines, and the kinds of brain damage you need to expect to 'win' at those, and then compare those with the on-line versions of the same. How could you possibly make a gaming machine any more crooked? Move it to an off-shore server, and you'll find a way.

... Wow.

Who in the hell is stupid enough to gamble online anyway? Gambling REAL money on e-poker? Holy shit that's stupid. Every time I receive an email from one of those places I just assume that out of 100 "people" in a tournament, 10 of them are employed by the company to rob the players, because the "random" draws won't be so random for them.

Damn, there are some stoooooooooooooooooooooooopid people out there.

No doubt Ping, cheating, especially via collusion, occurs all the time. I'm not surprised at all. I'm actually one of the people who received money back because of cheating.

Heck, there are programs (software bots) out there already that will play the game for you based on whatever strategy you decide to use.

In a brick and mortar setting, or especially in a home game you are "invited" to play in, it can happen as well. Heck, I've seen it occur in both, most recently a "government approved" card room: Card bending and collusion.

True, the difference is that we called over the floor to get us a new deck and the floor watched those that complained about the bent cards too much.

Cheating isn't the issue. That's a given risk any time you put out money somewhere. Hell, I've lost 50% on my portfolio's value, 25% on my house's value and 15% on my retirement plan. And no, it wasn't because I was spending too much time playing poker...

And yes, there need to be controls in place to keep it minimized. But governmental prohibition never solves anything...it just causes worse problems. History repeatedly shows this to be true.

Instead, some sort of independent validation, such as a "Good Housekeeping Seal" or "Underwriter's Laboratories" for online poker would be a much more effective way to allow people to exercise their right in the Pursuit of Happiness and their ability
to take chances, whether in the stock market or the card room. Instead of three guys in a room saying "everything is OK now."

---

The OTHER main point is that CBS' 60 Minutes program has become irrelevant. This cheating event is old news and is coming up only because of the new rules for enforcing the UIGEA just announced.

---

Also, for those of you who voted for Obama, I remind you he is a poker player as well.

NB: I voted for neither major candidate...I voted Boston Tea Party...Party Like it's 1773!

"After all, 1/6th or even 1/10th of [BIG PRIZE] is far better than the [NOTHING] you are likely to get playing alone."

Uh-huh...

The lesson: Whether it be Vegas, Monaco, Atlantic City, Cripple Creek, or some e-connection to an "off-shore" internet site, the House will always be the winner.

Always.

Sure, a couple may win, but thousands lose.

And lose.

And lose.

And lose.

And then lose some more.

And don't forget LOSE.

It's awfully hard to feel sorry for them. Nobody makes them gamble but themselves. They only seem capable of remembering that ONE TIME they won, and not the 10,000 times that they lost MORE. Even when they do win, they inevitably blow the winnings.

Do you ever people-watch at casinos?

One or two people deliriously happy every 15 to 20 minutes, surrounded by a thousand miserable people hunched over machines doing the same rat-poking-a-button-in-a-cage thing. Those little plastic cards that they attach to their pockets and plug into the machines complete the effect, since it looks like they're literally plugged into the machines like a rat with wires in its brain.

The casino doesn't need 'fake' winners.

They ALL are.

Exactly, Zot.

No one puts a gun to anyone's head to gamble anymore.

It is a personal decision to take chances, whether gambling or starting a business. Or even which way to go to work in the morning.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who goes to a casino. "Ya put yer money down and take yer chances" when you place that first bet. Playing poker is a skill oriented activity, not something based strictly on the randomness of cards, like Baccarat.

Short term, luck. Long term, skill.

==================
However, the piece by CBS/Washington Post was about cheating online poker playing. Old news. Long discussed in the online poker community. And those in that community are the people who at this time monitor what happens most closely.

It isn't illegal to play online. It isn't, in many jurisdictions, to run online poker games. Banks transferring money is what the UIGEA was about.

lot of money to be playing with online in gaming situations....

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