One way of another, Obama has to take a stand on Bush's dark legacy.

I believe he will be too caught up in returning the country to sanity and fiscal soundness. At least that is what the Bushies are counting on.

An excellent column by Mr Sullivan here.

Good eye, Doc.

Here's the deal, Obama has never made even the first noise about accountability being brought to bear on the War Criminals of BushCo and thus he is most likely not going to address that issue wotsoever.

Obama is not the far left radical the rightards have tried to paint him as over the entire uberlong campaign season, he's just another member of the corporate duopoly that America has in lieu of an actual functioning democracy, albeit a very smart and savvy member of that clan.

At the Youtube debates the most popular question submitted was why Dickless and Chimpy weren't being impeached. That question was censored by the powers that be. That factoid alone ought to teach folks wot they are up against here.

The most one can expect from the Obama administration in terms of righting old wrongs is to scale back the more egregious and unAmerican aspects of the Patriot Act, and to maybe, if yer lucky, remove the "torture is okay when we do it" clause from the Military Commisions Act. Also, getting out of Iraq within 16 months of taking office more or less. Removing the underly qualified Regent grads from the DoJ and elsewhere and thus quashing their agenda of tearing down the wall that seperate church and state. Closing down Gitmo and the black sites and stopping the extraordinary rendition process of kidnapping and torturing whomsoever the government wants.

And that's about it.

The mass spying is here to stay.

Cheney and Chimpy will never be tried for their many crimes and the corporate duopoly will roll on. At least until until enuff people recognise it's insidious nature and react accordingly.

A tipping point of conciousness is required for that and that seems unlikely to happen in the short term due to the sophisticated propaganda network that exists to spew think tanked memes into the public conciousness, a BigGov-friendly BigMedia that's overly cozy with all aspects of the MIC and who emit enuff distractions, deflections and misinformation on a regular basis that they are able to poison the national debate and prevent much real substantive discussion from occuring on the kind of a mass scale that would be neccessary to mobilize public will.

Spud hopes he's wrong here but imagines that's highly unlikely.

Be Well.

dangerous ground for Obama to travel to I think. If he goes after Bush I think he better hope the GOP doesn't get back into power because they will look to get even, even if Bush is unpopular. I think Obama should focus on the economy and national security (including getting out of Iraq) from the word go. That would show me things are really gonna change.

I"m reading Vince Bugliosi's book right now.

I hope someone takes up the cause of charging Bush with murder. He IS a murderer. We think about the 4000+ Americans, but the 1,000,000+ Iraqi's dead should count for something too, shouldn't they?

American Unity, I was against the Iraq war too, but those million Iraqis were killed in sectarian violence. They were killed by other Iraqis.

I just think this is a dangerous idea. If you can charge Bush with murder, could you not charge Bill Clinton for that aspirin factory debacle? Sure Bush's operation is immensely larger but boil the two situations down and we have people dying because of America and faulty intel.

This is not to say Presidents should be above the law, I just think given the current state of our politics this would trigger a tit-for-tat situation of opposite parties putting the other party's president on trial.

GREENDAD

Bush is already under indictment in at least 2 European countries. Most likely nothing will come of it in the U.S., but there should be some accountability for starting a war based intel shaky at best, cherry picked and outright fabricated at worst.

A different time in our history maybe they would be. But I just don't see it happening. Obama may have won convincingly (and thankfully) in the Electoral College, but in the popular vote it was still pretty close. I don't think Obama wants to start up very divisive investigations. I hope he just wants to focus on getting to work. And a problem with the congress taking it up, is many of the Reps and Senators voted for the resolution to let Bush start the war, and many of them made statements that seem to say they were for the war at the time.

I think the removal of the GOP from power in the Executive and Legislative branches is going to have to stand as punishment enough.

American Unity I just had another thought of why I wouldnt want Obama or Congress to pursue charges and investigations against Bush and his Admin. What if the talk of Obama being "Tested" by terrorists or some other national security crises in the first year are true? What if there is some sort of attack on this nation and he or the Dem Congress is focusing on punishing Bush? I think not only would that end DNC control of the Congress, but would permanently scar the Obama administration.

Just my opinion though, and like many times in my many years, I could be wrong.

GREENDAD

I'm just a citizen with an opinion like most of us.

Afghanistan was a justified war. Iraq was a crime. Especially after Bush's daddy's successful call for the Iraqis to rebel, which was met by *crickets* when they did. Most of the Iraq general staff were with him. Well, until they saw his words were empty.

Result of that little radio speech by HW Bush: 250,000 killed by Saddam as we stood by, in some cases filming Republican Guard units killing hundreds.

PS GREENDAD

Bugilosi's book doesn't call for Congress to get into prosecuting Bush. He lays out the case for any District Attorney in the U.S. to charge and try him for murder.

If Bush is going to trial for the murder of thousands of Iraqis, then Clinton needs to go too. How many tens of thousands died because of the sanctions? Because of the no-fly zones?

Let's use this as an excuse to lynch 'em all, including members of Congress who voted for it, and who continually voted to fund it. Of course, that would include the saintly Mr. Obama himself, which might be problematic.

Now we see RIR has the world in total perspective.

I always have.

what SHOULD happen is that barry will see just what is involved with KEEPING US SAFE FROM TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11 and have a much more respectfull view of just how GEORGE W BUSH ACCOMPLISHED THAT.......

Whoo Hoo TWO

This is a story about torture and black sites.

Didn't Clinton have black sites? Or did he just turn over the thugs to the country of origin?

-----

Glad to see Vince has a new book to pawn off--it's been a while.

--------------

This will not go anywhere--trying to charge Bush with war crimes on the Iraq issue. Too many folks had the same intel and condemned Hussein over it.

Like Hillary and Gore and the UN and France, Germany, SA, Jordan--everyone knew he had WMD.

How was anyone to know Hussein was such a good poker player?

Going to indict the entire intel community?

And AU wants to prosecute Bush Sr. for the first Gulf War?

geez..

I believe the world will deal with Bush's crimes against humanity or war crimes or whatever else you want to call them Pinochet finally found out that world travel would cost him years pretending to be seriously ill to avoid justice outside his own country. George Bush may be coming down with some similar ailments.

"dangerous ground for Obama to travel to I think. If he goes after Bush I think he better hope the GOP doesn't get back into power because they will look to get even, even if Bush is unpopular. I think Obama should focus on the economy and national security (including getting out of Iraq) from the word go. That would show me things are really gonna change."

While I don't actually hold out much hope for hard-ass investigations, indictments, trials or incarceration, I do agree that those things are needed to restore the dignity of the United States, both domestically and abroad.

IMO, one of the biggest mistakes ever made in the history of this nation was Ford's pardoning of Nixon after Watergate. I feel that Ford was an honorable man doing what he genuinely felt best for the country, but in hindsight, we should have exacted a price for Nixon's crimes, as an example to future generations of politicians. Had we had a mug shot or a photo of Tricky Dick's scowling, blue-chinned face behind bars to point to these past eight years, it's possible that President Rosemary's Baby and Darth Cheney might have thought twice about a few of their actions.

Although I do believe some of the things Bush has done are atrocious; I'm not sure we want to see a US President up on war crimes charges.

Maybe an official censure or something of that kind. Anything more substantial would put this adminsitration on a head on collision course with the new administration and would set precedent on prosecuting ex-presidents.

Non-elected officals, you can put them under the jail.

It will have to wait until his second term, or it will get nowhere. Power has its priviledges.

Obama is not the far left radical the rightards have tried to paint him as over the entire uberlong campaign season, he's just another member of the corporate duopoly that America has in lieu of an actual functioning democracy, albeit a very smart and savvy member of that clan.

#2 | Posted by dethspud at 2008-11-30 12:52 PM | Reply

That's interesting. You were here shilling for Obama every day during the primaries and the general election. Now, you say he is really just a very smart corporate puppet masquerading as a "small-d" democrat. What a difference a month makes.

"You were here shilling for Obama every day during the primaries and the general election. Now, you say he is really just a very smart corporate puppet masquerading as a "small-d" democrat. "

And your selective reading must have skipped over the numerous times that Spud described Obama as a corporate whore, albeit not as bad as the Bushicans.

"must have skipped over the numerous times that Spud described Obama as a corporate whore"

I must have missed that too. Probably because it never happened.

"I must have missed that too. Probably because it never happened.

#23 | Posted by JOE "

You miss a whole lot of things, Sloe.

Especially things that never happened. Hard to catch those.

"must have skipped over the numerous times that Spud described Obama as a corporate whore"

I must have missed that too. Probably because it never happened.

#23 | Posted by JOE at 2008-12-01 05:34 PM | Reply

I guess "G08ama" is Canadian for "corporate whore."

Just curious how Bush can be charged with starting a war when officially we never had a surrender from the 1991 affair. Were they not in violation of the so called cease fire agreement? Didn't the violated terms of the agreement warrant punishment? Also like Murphy pointed out, how about every ranking member from both parties who all gave Bush their permission? Not to mention every Congressional aye vote. They never bothered to read the entire intel available and they should be off the hook?

"Especially things that never happened. Hard to catch those."

Not having the facts never stopped Joe the Mouth from flapping his gums.

must have skipped over the numerous times that Spud described Obama as a corporate whore"

~Nulli

I must have missed that too. Probably because it never happened.

~JOE

I guess "G08ama" is Canadian for "corporate whore.

~Levay

As Nulli points out yer reading and comprehension skills are woefully inadequate fer a place like the 'Tort.

Shall Spud re-iterate?

Spud shall. Spud shall.

ALL politicians in the US are corporate whores.

The difference between the two sides of the coin (that is the corporate duopoly y'all have in lieu of a real democracy) is that Rtards are more openly contemptuous of the people they are supposed to serve while the Dems are traditionally much less so.

Rethugs are full-on Corporate Whores and Democrats are the "Corporate Lite" brand.

As Spud esplained on another thread Americans "don't do nuance" as a rule, ergo Spud's support of Obama leading up to the campaign was certainly more partisan and unwavering in tone, in reflection of that all too obvious fact.

Spud pre-election postage was deliberately devoid of all that nuance and most of Spud's private reservations about the possiblity that Obama's rhetoric was for real.

Spud did observe on a number of occasions that Obama represented, at best, half a chance for real Change in American politics while John McCain represented a ZERO percent chance for meaningfull change.

Spud sed it.
Spud meant it.
Spud holds to it.

Moving on...

Having, in his own small spuddish way, helped get Obama elected you will now see the difference between a true lefty and an Rtard.

Which is to say, that the left have a fair degree more intellectual honesty and are far more willing to openly criticise their own as opposed to Rtards who treat their pols like their home team who can do no wrong and must always be defended no matter how ridiculously WRONG they are, as we saw all too often in the case of Dumbya (and the man with his hand up his meatpuppet ass, ie Dickless Cheney).

Spud realises that this lack of cohesion, as it is sometimes viewed on the right, is the biggest weakness of the left but Spud is say unto you now:

Nope, ...is our greatest strength.

Ponder that.

Watch and learn.

Be Well.

Hypothetical....

Your on the street in India and Ajmal Qasab walks out of the Taj with an AK47. Do you pull the vindictive crowd off of him, read him his Miranda rights, and call his lawyer???? Or join in on his beating?

Oh come on spud, then why all the soft ball questions to obama? He refused/refuses to answer ANY hard questions.

Such as, why did you vote "present" 132 times?

Such as, why did you vote "present" 132 times?

~Dave the Mindslave

Coupla things here.

First, you are confusing "Hard" questions with "Dumb" questions.

Second, He's answered that Dumb question over and over and over again.

Spud's heard him.

Want to hear the answer again?

Here's goes...

In the Illinois State Senate (where Obama spent 8 years before being elected to serve in DC at the national level) there is a practise whereby one votes "present" on a vote that one thinks has merit but is not yet ready to be voted on.

Did you catch that?

Cos Spud can repeat it if you like.

It's not an unknown practise, it serves a function in terms of democratic principle and yet it was turned into a Rtarded sound bite because, fer some reason, it found traction amongst the mouth breathers on the right.

Of course, we're talking the same dingbats who thought Wright and Rezko and Ayers were big deals so no huge surprise there.

Be Well.

It seems to me that Barack declared quite unequivocally on "60 Minutes," while holding Michelle's hand, that he would close Guantanamo and renounce torture of our captives. herm

Obama's win readily demonstrates that the American voters are TOTAL FUCKING ASSHOLES!!!

So just why should Obama address torture or anything else seeing that he got elected and easily,without promising to do "anything" at all different in the White House,than Bush and Cheney did! The glaring,sordid fact that the American voters are TOTAL FUCKING ASSHOLES for electing Obama on that substance less basis is actually the real story here and everywhere else!!!

Spud's support of Obama leading up to the campaign was certainly more partisan and unwavering in tone

#29 | Posted by dethspud at 2008-12-01 06:05 PM | Reply | Flag

Precisely.

And, the founder of the Church of Satan's name is "LaVey" not "Levay."

How about this one, "I would like to address the court your honor."

Sullivan, best known for bashing Mel Gibson, has decided now to become an expert on the Obama transition. Here's a little clue to watch for.. you'll never ever, not once, hear the president elect refer to the "criminality" of the Bush administration.

The much questioned swing to the right by Obama on matters of terrorism has to do with only one thing.. he's now getting security briefings and he's taking his job as the upcoming chief executive seriously.

Something that people of Sullivan's ilk have never understood. We live in a dangerous world, a world that would be a lot more dangerous except for George W Bush.. and that's a legacy that Obama fully intends to continue. Sorry lefties.. the presidency is for adults. Bush's aggressive stance on the war on terror has kept another 9/11 style attack from happening.. but the bad guys out there haven't stopped trying and Obama being president won't stop it either.

And, the founder of the Church of Satan's name is "LaVey" not "Levay."

~Anton LaVey

Meh, Spud was too lazy to google it.

Nice to see you found the sharp end of Spud's barb though.

Sullivan, best known for bashing Mel Gibson...

~NoMeaninGNO

Maybe in Rtardville but not on the rest of the planet. Sullivan is most famous for originally backing Bush and the Iraq "War" and then changing his mind on both topics and then later on after that becoming a big Obama supporter.

The fact that he called Mel Gibson BDSM porn flick the "Passion of the Christ" an "anti-semetic" work was just Andy stating the obvious.

We live in a dangerous world, a world that would be a lot more dangerous except for George W Bush.

Umm, no, sorry to hafta tell ya, Rtard, but George Dumbya Bush has only made the world a much more dangerous place in his time in office.

He's also made the US much weaker in it's ability to handle future threats in terms of making the US a pariah rogue state, pushing for ruinous economic policies and deliberately allowing Iraq to collapse into Chaos while practically ignoring Afghanistan.

Yer connection to reality is most tenuous.

Good luck with that.

Be Well.

The Gay Ms Sullivan is a piece of human excrement and belongs in France where he would fit right in. We should turn all the scum at gitmo over to mexico and pay them to get information for us. They are very good at this.

The Gay Ms Sullivan is a piece of human excrement and belongs in France where he would fit right in. We should turn all the scum at gitmo over to mexico and pay them to get information for us. They are very good at this.
#39 | Posted by Badeye

(A) Mr. Sullivan is an American citizen, came over on the banana boat just like your ancestors and has as much right to be here as you. Maybe he should have more, actually, since he actually made a choice and my guess is you entered our society as a native-born hatchling.

(B) France is a great country. Get out, do some traveling, see those parts of the world Bush hasn't pissed off so much that Americanos dare not show their faces. It'll do you some good and make you sound less ignorant.

(C) Farming out torture is something we already do, so you're a bit late on that. But I'll grant you your consistency: like any good little Chicken Hawk, you want someone else to do your dirty work for you.

(D) Suggestion: Read the US Constitution and engage in some reflection about how damaged it is. Pay special attention to any discussions you hapen to run across about habeus corpus.

(E) Here's a bet you're almost certain to win: Find another unthinking reactionary and tell her/him you'll bet them the farm that when the tales of horror from the Bush Administration with respect to rendition and torture really start coming out most Americans will be both shocked and ashamed. Except for the psychopaths, lockstepping ignorami, and those who will never admit they either got taken for a ride or actually liked the idea of inflicting pain on others for a Higher Purpose.

"a world that would be a lot more dangerous except for George W Bush"

Link, please.

The Gay Ms Sullivan
#39 | Posted by Badeye

What's Sullivan being gay have to do with this?

What's Sullivan being gay have to do with this?

#42 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

You know Doc... as long as he's "one of them" (gay, commie, liberal, foreign, etc.) then he is less than human and his opinions can be dismissed quite easily.

SA - Gotcha.

Sullivan's sexuality makes his thoughts on torture irrelevant

Sullivan's sexuality makes his thoughts on torture irrelevant

#46 | Posted by timbci

I rest my case.

...and yet the same faggots...Liberal faggots...Liberals do not deserve the freedom they enjoy and one day conservatives will loose interest in protecting a bunch of cowardly pussies
#45 | Posted by ATaxpayer

Hoo-haw, the moonbats are certainly out and about today. Funny how stories about accountability for rendition and torture do that.

And from this boob we get the double whammy: homophobia coupled with a threat not to protect people with whom s/he disagrees.

Let loose the flying monkeys!

Sullivan's sexuality makes his thoughts on torture irrelevant
#46 | Posted by timbci

And why is that?

Let loose the flying monkeys!
#48 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Hey Doc you are already logged in is that not redundant ?????

Torture is as American as John Hancock and Ethan Allen

"Hey Doc you are already logged in is that not redundant ?????"

No, not really.

Next time, look up the word before you use it and you'll make more sense.

That would be like me asking whether your use of the term "Liberal faggot" is redundant.

Torture is as American as John Hancock and Ethan Allen
#51 | Posted by timbci

And why is that?

The ol' Docster is really active today, ain't he? Educating the great unwashed this morning, Doc? Problem is, most of us don't know that you spent your life in the halls of academia studying "Heather Has Two Mommies" and "It Takes A Village." They don't know that you probably attended many, many lectures by Ward Churchill and that you earned that Pee-Aitch-Dee.

Hey, all you Doc bashers out there...DOC IS SMART! He can't walk and chew gum, but he is smart. Just ask him. Show some respect, OK? He is a Doctor of Philosophy after all, and is just as qualified as Sean Penn to discuss U.S. foreign policy.

Doc Sarvis. Open a history book son. Apparently you know nothing about John Hancock's life as a pirate or the Green Mountain boys

And why is that?
#53 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Some posts you should just leave alone, doc.

For those of you that seem to be cranially challenged torture involves excruciating pain as in having your balls cut off and shoved in your mouth while being set on fire to burn alive, the religion of peace and its followers have perfected their techniques over the centuries because of people that are afraid to challenge them, liberal pussies are the first group that come to mind they will go after Bush because some poor terrorist may have been water boarded, which is a day at the beach compared to what has been done in the name of the religion of peace...

Religion of Peace is an oxymoron

For those of you that seem to be cranially challenged torture involves excruciating pain as in having your balls cut off and shoved in your mouth while being set on fire to burn alive, the religion of peace and its followers have perfected their techniques over the centuries because of people that are afraid to challenge them, liberal pussies are the first group that come to mind they will go after Bush because some poor terrorist may have been water boarded, which is a day at the beach compared to what has been done in the name of the religion of peace...

ALL TRUE! People who think otherwise end up in the dustbin of history filed under "conquered".

Educating the great unwashed this morning, Doc?
#54 | Posted by jestgettinalong

In your case? Yes.

liberal pussies are the first group that come to mind they will go after Bush because some poor terrorist may have been water boarded, which is a day at the beach compared to what has been done in the name of the religion of peace...
#57 | Posted by ATaxpayer Reply | Flag: Flag: Flying Monkey Brigade Reporting In

Flying Monkey Brigade Reporting In
#62 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2008-12-02 10:44 AM

Flying Monkey Brigade Reporting In
#62 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2008-12-02 10:44 AM

#62 | Posted by ATaxpayer

See above. Your presence has already been noted.

Doc, the No. 1 problem with the uneducated is that they fight like hell to keep from becoming educated. Forgive them; they know not what they do. herm

Doc, the No. 1 problem with the uneducated is that they fight like hell to keep from becoming educated. Forgive them; they know not what they do. sperm

#65 | Posted by sperm at 2008-12-02 12:47 PM

they know not what they do. sperm

sperm seems to be the only thing they do know what to do with.

Wot a knee-slapper that "ANTAXPAYER" ain't.

Wot a knee-slapper that "ANTAXPAYER" ain't.

Well I didn't have much to work with they just swim around in circles
#67 | Posted by sperm at 2008-12-02 12:47 PM