I'm not a big fan of wind farms, primarily because they're ugly and take up enormous stretches of real estate.. but forgive me for being a little skeptical of the weather change.
Radicals have a tendency to eat their own as readily as they eat anyone else..

Which is why they rarely resolve anything for anyone. There is no utopia for unlimited energy.

So... we should tear down all the skyscrapers in Manhattan to improve the weather in Queens? What a coincidence that some of this research came from University of Calgary, where there is sooo much coal and oil shale. This smells kind of like the anti global warming "research" paid for by Exxon.

The model this was calculated on doesn't seem to be based on reality. Wasted ink and pixels in my opinion.

The scientists, Daniel Barrie and Daniel Kirk-Davidoff of the University of Maryland, calculated "what might happen if all the land from Texas to central Canada, and from the Great Lakes to the Rocky Mountains, were covered in one massive wind farm," according to Discovery News. The result of such an unlikely installation: a real serious Butterfly Effect.

The researchers "acknowledged the hypothetical wind farm was far larger than anything humans are likely to build,"

In 2004, two separate groups of scientists did similar calculations.

One group found the opposite effect.

On the other hand, coal never hurt anybody.

Anyone with any inkling of technical experience has known this for a long time. Laws of Thermodynamics tell us (contrary to what the dems would have you believe) there is no such thing as a free lunch. Whether it is wind or tidal, you are taking kinetic energy out of nature to make electricity. That decrease in kinetic energy may have some effect somewhere. Won't it be interesting if in 20 years we are experiencing a global crisis brought to you by "green energy"?

While a wind farm prolly won't be built on the scale this story envisages there is no doubt that wind farms of a certain size or greater would have an impact on the weather by their slowing of the wind through harnassing it's power.

Real question is "would that impact be more positive than negative?" and the answer to that question is highly speculative and dubious at thais time.

That sed, it's not neccessarily a bad question to be asking.

Sustainable, eco-friendly modes of energy production are the future of the human race.

/If there's gonna be one at all.

Be Well.

""Whether it is wind or tidal, you are taking kinetic energy out of nature to make electricity. That decrease in kinetic energy may have some effect somewhere. ""

Indeed, interesting point that is never discussed, though i'd posit that the impact is minimal when compared to fossil fuels.

Hydro-Quebec has been generating power at James Bay for 40 years or so using rivers and tides...produces about 50% of the province's power and feeds most of NY. The impact is usually detailed from an "up-front" perspective, as these types of projects require displacing streams, rivers, and ultimately some people though the area is very sparsely inhabited, creating basins, etc.

Passing wind is not polite.

If we're simply speaking hypothetically, perhaps the wind farms would counter-act the increases in wind speed that may have been caused by deforestation, in places.

I suppose if enough people farted in the same direction at the same time they could cause a wind storm.

"ignorant, bottom of the gene pool customers."

#8 | Posted by gitmboy

Tens of millions of people shop WalMart worldwide everyday.

Are you superior to all of them?

Tens of millions of people shop WalMart worldwide everyday.

Are you superior to all of them?

#11 | Posted by ZOT at 2008-11-28 01:40 PM | Reply |

Are you drunker more stoned than all of them?

Wait a second...

Wind farms will change the weather, but 6 billion peoople stomping out various carbon footprints don't?

Jeez...just how far does the Moronic rabbit hole go?

Did Al Gore lie about wind energy being good for us, just like he lied when he conceding the 2000 election to George W. Bush and later changed his mind.

"I'm not a big fan of wind farms, primarily because they're ugly and take up enormous stretches of real estate.. "

#1 | Posted by nmg_no

Other than the actual footprint of the support, a wind turbine assembly doesn't take up much real estate at all, on the ground that is. The ground between is still available for farming, ranching, etc.

I think they are kinda cool, not ugly at at all. They have a very clean look to them.

Wind turbines are obviously not a panacea to solve the world's energy problems, but they are a good, supplement that are mostly ecologically sound.

"but forgive me for being a little skeptical of the weather change."

Weather is driven by energy, or rather the exchange of energy. Affecting change in one place will affect change down the line.

Everything has an effect, no matter how small. Y'a now, the butterfly wing flapping thing. The effect may be so small as to be, on the surface, inconsequential. But simply because we cannot immediately measure the effect does not mean that there is no affect.

For example, though infinitesimal, an orbiting shuttle craft actually robs energy from the Earth, slowing down it's rotation. From what can be determined, days are actually longer than they were 5,000 years ago, though this is measured in the mere seconds. The Earth's rotational speed is decreasing.

uglier than a city (san francisco excepted) or freeway?

i don't think so.

I think we're far too arrogant about our ability to do much of anything to such an old, active planet. Humans are this much _ space in the life of this world. The theory is interesting though. Release of energy is going to do something, somewhere, sometime. Unfortunatly, we are a "does it affect me right now" race but we can't be afraid to try new things. We've got to do something. We should do what we can to be good stewards but on the whole, we'll be fossils and no one to even miss us while this world goes on & on & on. I like that show on the History Channel: Life After People. Puts things in perspective.

one day $4.89, then $1.67.

free markets my ass. we were played for patsies with war, oil and derivatives. they wrote the laws to protect themselves. its a sweetheart deal.

Derivatives MTM valuations are largely based upon their underlying asset. Pay you mortgages you deadbeats

The notion that any number of wind turbines sticking could have any measurable effect on climate is so stupid it must have come from someone with the intellect of Sara Palin or FuckWadTom.

The vast majority of the atmosphere is thousands of feet above these turbines. They are barely tall enough to get into the lowest strata of moving air. The cumulative effect of several million of them on the movement of the earth's atmosphere would be akin to the effect of you sticking a single layer of duct tape 2 inches square to the top of your car on your car's speed at 30 miles per hour.

This kind of 'science' is what we have come to expect from Republican asswipes and their paid stooges.

"""I think they are kinda cool, not ugly at at all. They have a very clean look to them. """

Ditto. Stood in front of a small array of turbines a while back and thought they looked and sounded cool...wasn't my back yard though.

Its gunna need to be phased out slowly buy introducing a 2-ton capacity 4x4 that can go over 200 miles with out needing recharged.

Phoenix Motors isn't far from producing that right now, yet few people actually drive 4x4 with a 2 ton capacity so that is a small slice of the market.

Well its what I drive and I need it for hauling Music equipment for my band. Why cant they come out with a big car thats electric or hybrid? I mean do/are they all gunna look like hideous little eggs with NO trunk space? I wanna big ole Lincoln, and nice Caddy looking thing come on. I refuse to ride in ANYTHING that is only as long as I am. Looks like I'm dead meat in a collision. Freaks me out.

Phoenix Motors isn't far from producing that right now, yet few people actually drive 4x4 with a 2 ton capacity so that is a small slice of the market.

www.phoenixmotorcars.com

#23 | Posted by OzarkAggie at 2008-11-28 05:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

And of those who do, how many actually have any need for it as anything other then a penis extender?

I drive a chevette that is all anybody needs

I wonder who financed the study, exxon or the coal industry.

The problem with clean running vehicles isn't the cars... it is the commercial vehicles. While it may be possible to make an efficient personal vehicle, this countries life-blood is it's commercial vehicles. Virtually everything in this country is moved by truck and train. Try making an efficient truck capable of hauling 50,000 lb. loads up steep grades that runs on electric. Not even close right now.

Biodiesel... sure.

Propane... BIG maybe after tons of money in research, but still a ways away.

Electric... don't even make me laugh.

Even when you have one that will do it, it will be years after that before it is perfected to the point of being practical.

Just a hunch, but if I had to guess I would say your typical Freightliner tractor puts out more carbon than 5 SUV's in the same amount of time running... and the typical tractor runs for much longer in a given day that any one of those personal vehicles.

Anyone that thinks we will reduce oil dependency to 0% in 10 years is flat out full of shit.

As for the wind farms... more power too them (pun intended). While I understand the concept behind what they are saying, I think the results are exaggerated just as much as the claims on global warming/climate change.

Incidentally I think that Dumpling1 had a bigger point than they realized, although they probably didn't realize it was a two-sided point:

"Wait a second...

Wind farms will change the weather, but 6 billion peoople stomping out various carbon footprints don't?

Jeez...just how far does the Moronic rabbit hole go?"

The flip side of that is: people spewing out carbon can change the weather but wind farms on a large scale can't?

I see some of the same people pooh-poohing the wind farm article as far fetched that think that the meager amount of carbon we put out (compared the vast volume of total atmosphere) is going to destroy us all. And they never see the irony. Funny that.

I wonder who financed the study, exxon or the coal industry.

Doesn't have to be either one, RunnySore. You are starting to sound like BuffaloBob and his conspiracy crap.

The fact is, there are plenty of regular people out there that are skeptical of the global warming/climate change hype, and according to all reports, the number of people that are skeptical is growing.

Your statement looks more like one of three things:

1) Someone that sees a bogeyman in every closet and under every bed.

or...

2) Someone with an agenda to push.

or...

3) Plain ignorance.

I will leave it up to others to determine which it is.

Salt Water As A Fuel...

"This may be the most revolutionary invention or discovery since
fire. A man was trying to cure cancer using radio waves and
discovered that these radio waves could be used to unlock hydrogen
form oxygen in salt water. Amazing!"

Wind Power Exposed: The Renewable Energy Source is Expensive, Unreliable and Won't Save Natural Gas.

Wind has been the cornerstone of almost all environmentalist and social engineering proclamations for more than three decades and has accelerated to a crescendo the last few years in both the United States and the European Union.

There is no doubt in my mind that if a high enough number of these turbines are built and installed that we will have some effect on weather patterns.

If you have driven through Sweetwater, Texas or along I40 in western Oklahoma you almost have to understand what I meean.

I suspect that the number of turbines required to change weather patterns noticably would be far beyond what we could actually build. In addition, no one knows what these effects would be.

Build the darn things and cut back on our use of fossil fuel.

Height of "weather" is 30,000 feet.
Height of wind farm is 300 feet.
Cover entire continent in wind farms: 1% effect.

Build 'em and get off the imported oil tit.

Build 'em and get off the imported oil tit.

#33 | Posted by Zatoichi

IT's not wind farms, it's all those damned birds.

They're out there flapping their wings all the time, disrupting my weather. And don't even get me started on how much damage all those butterflies cause in the springtime.

I wonder how many wind turbines you would have to have to equal the 'wind disturbing' effect of one single passenger jet flight?

"the 'wind disturbing' effect of one single passenger jet flight"

Then there are BLT's farts ...

Build 'em and get off the imported oil tit.

~Zatoichi-san

Using clean renewable eco-friendly energy resources is a great way to get offa the "imported oil tit" as you say but the other part of that equation is to stop or reverse the trend towards using petrochemicals in manufacturing.

Use glass instead of plastic.

Use metal instead of plastic.

Wear hemp instead of cloth made from oil.

That sort of thing.

I wonder how many wind turbines you would have to have to equal the 'wind disturbing' effect of one single passenger jet flight?

~Lipzoidal

Are you making sense again, Lippy?

Wot has Spud told you about that before?

That's right, ...it really, REALLY disturbs the mentally challenged wingnutZ hereabouts.

Ergo... Keep up the good werk!

^_^

The flip side of that is: people spewing out carbon can change the weather but wind farms on a large scale can't?

~Moo

No one is arguing that Wind Farms will have zero impact on the weather, just a minimal one that is not particularily serious. The MMCC/GW phenom is far more serious an issue and hardly equal in scope or severity.

It's an equation Moo and you don't seem to be grasping it's parameters particularily well. It's not just the net amounts of carbon and pollutants being spewed into the atmosphere annually by human industry but it's also the net aggregate of that building up cumulatively and the added effect of the increasing depletion of oxygen creating sea life and plant life.

Last years carbon addition plus this years carbon addition minus this years oxygen depletion plus last years oxygen depletion and so on and so forth back to the begining of mankinds industrial age.

For those who have eyes that can see this cannot end well w/o serious and drastic changes in population, energy production and manufacturing.

Anyone who is still in doubt as to the reality and severity of the Man Made Climate Change/ Global Warming phenomenon is in serious denial.

Be Well.