After WWII we were the only game in town. The rest of the world caught up economically and has the advantage of sweatshop like wages, sweet tax deals from payoffs, and cheap raw materials. We have to look at sectors of the economy that cannot be traded to the lowest bidder by our patriotic industry leaders. Obama's tax incentives for every American job created is something, but it seems so artificial.

Silver spoons make guys like Romney feel they hit a triple, when the truth is they were born on third base.

I hope every working person in America remembers how Mitt shares their pain. What an idiot. His political future just went in the toilet where it belongs.

Detroit is already doomed! Who the hell want to live in Detroit anyway?

"Silver spoons make guys like Romney feel they hit a triple, when the truth is they were born on third base."

Does this have anything to do with the point he expresses in the article?

"Does this have anything to do with the point he expresses in the article?" #5 | Posted by JOE

Nope! Only some more Republican hate.

I have to admit, I don't know what to think on this issue. Like Romney and others, I don't want to keep funneling money to a losing cause. But on the other hand, the ripple effect of bankruptcy for all three auto makers looks dreadful to my eyes, particularly in an economy that's gone into hibernation.

So many factors are at work in this, from years of management arrogance and negligence to sky-high labor costs to the oil price spike of the past few years. Yeah, oil's down now, but don't count on it staying there. Americans' apathy toward conservation plays a role too. I mean, really, Hummers and Suburbans and all the rest. We haven't been paying close enough attention to the fact that oil is finite. And then housing and finance collapse, the economy goes into a tailspin, and here we are.

It's not going to be pretty, no matter what happens with the bailout. I live in a state that depends heavily on the auto industry for its livelihood, and I hate to think what the economic landscape will look like in 2009.

"Does this have anything to do with the point he expresses in the article?"

#5 | Posted by JOE

Sure. Romney is heartless and evil because he's rich. That's why he doesn't feel we should bail out every company and hot dog stand that goes under.

The funny thing is, I think Romney's article shows a concern for the long-term viability of the auto companies. He recognizes that simply throwing more money at a failing business model isn't going to keep them alive forever without a fundamental restructuring. Unfortunately the knee-jerk reaction for some is that if he doesn't want to throw taxpayer money at a problem, that means he doesn't care.

I'm really not sure what I think of it. I just hate that the default answer is always a massive "bail out." Companies should be forced to either fail or adapt, but I admit I don't know how that would affect the rest of us.

This is like a parent who at some point has to cut the purse strings to their children. We all know parents to enable their kid's bad behavior by continually bailing them out. Paying their rent, covering their groceries, getting them out of jail, etc.

At some point if the kid is ever going to grow up, the parents have to stop enabling. When they do, it is usually very hard on the kids. They complain to the parents about how the parents must hate them etc.

It is the same here. Both sides of this, Management and Labor have been enabled by the gov. We have to stop or they will have no incentive to change. Yea, and just as some here accuse Romney of hating, they will accuse the gov of hating them. Then the ones who will survive, will get it together and figure out what it means to accept accountability for their own actions.

Romney doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. At least part way.

The bailout will delay this issue, our trade policies is the real matter and if they are not addressed the big three will go under no matter what.

If the Boeing company could sell their airplanes to other european nations and asia the aircraft manufacturing would fail too.

Wow! Boeing is doing OK as well as aerobus but trade is done fair here........imagine that.

What a hint.

I hope every working person in America remembers how Mitt shares their pain. What an idiot. His political future just went in the toilet where it belongs.

#3 | Posted by danni

I guess you think I should adopt one of the young UAW people and keep him on easy street for the rest of his life? It ain't my job to bail out every sorry company that has done stupid things.

All thoes jobs won't go away for good unless we pass some more stupid laws to drive all manufacturing overseas. We will continue to buy cars and someone will have to build them.

Yea, Gov has played a large role in this. The "field" is not level. People can bring products into the US far easier than we can send them into their countries.

So the gov has to step up as well if they want to address this and be tough on these countries. Their products will be given the same entry in the the US as our products are given to their countries.

Silver spoons make guys like Romney feel they hit a triple, when the truth is they were born on third base.

#2 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2008

AU..I thought you were bigger than to just repeat the class warfare line>?
so you are saying that mitt never had to work for anything he whole life?
sure he had advabtages, but he has never come across as a guy who was a spoiled brat named CHAD...
so say that all people from rich families had everything handed to them is just silly

I think what many of you are saying here is this

BAILOUT wont doom detroit

detroit DOOMED detroit...........and a little thing called greed

Make a freakin' car that people want to buy. Jeezus!
Remember this atrocity??

"Remember this atrocity??"

I see. You're driving this, then, right?

Bankruptcy would save Detroit, not doom it. It would wipe the slate clean of their staggering, crippling liabilities. It would finally put labor and (new) management on the same side of the table to figure out what to do, and would put tens of billions of dollars worth of productive capacity on the market to the highest and most efficient bidders.

It's what we should have done with AIG, FNMA, and FRE, but that's what you get when you have a Goldman guy running Treasury with a blank check. So now everyone who has a cash flow problem feels like they should take a private jet to Washington to see if the taxpayer is willing to kite some checks on their behalf. And why not?

Will bankruptcy solve the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS???
No??
Then it won't solve the problem of the auto makers at all.
You're welcome.

Ford actually turned a profit in the first quarter of 2008.

Have any of the posters watched any of the hearings about the bailouts????
Do you know about any of the changes the auto makers have already made, about the new contracts with UAW???
It seems that most sort of think the auto makers are still the same as the were five or even ten years ago. They aren't. They are rapidly modernizing and putting themselves in a position to compete head to head with Toyota and the rest but the crisis is effecting ALL auto makers, not just the Americans. European nations are already loaning cash to their companies for the same reason that our big 3 need it.

But then someone notices that they flew in on private jets and people think that's all they need to know about the situation. For crying out loud, these guys run some of the largest corporations in the world, travel with a staff and have to manage the company from whereever in the world they happen to be. That is just a distraction away from the real issues.

Your shilling for the grossly overpaid management teams of the Big 3 is very touching Danni. Soon enough you'll be putting on your pom poms for Goldman Sachs.

They had no plan to deal with high gas prices. They had no plan to deal with credit downgrades. They had no plan to deal with credit and CDS triggers. They had no plan that includes bankruptcy reorganization, which is one of the biggest arrows in any CEO's quiver. And when asked what they would do with the $25 billion they are asking for, they didn't even have a plan for that. And the fact that it never occurred to anyone that it might appear unseemly for 3 guys from the same airport, headed to the same airport, to the same meeting to ask for a shakedown of $25,000,000,000 which--they think--will tide them over for six weeks to fly in on 3 private jets, shows me that their media relations team doesn't plan very well either.

I love how all the sudden DANNI is for Big Business and respects their leadership. What a joke you are DUMMI.

Make a freakin' car that people want to buy. Jeezus!

Like this:

Will bankruptcy solve the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS???
* * * *

Actually, it does. Bad debts get liquidated.

Take what would have happened had the big banks been forced into bankruptcy. A new buyer moves in and snaps up the mortgages on the books for ten cents on the dollar. They then contact the mortgage holder who's fallen behind, and offers to renegotiate--lower principal amounts, lower payments, to which the homeowner agrees. New investors make money, homeowners stay in their homes, and floors are quickly found in real estate prices. And the common stockholders of the original bank get wiped out, but the debts of the bank go down with them.

Or we can do things this way. Just keep throwing money into the banks that originated crummy loans to people who can't pay them back, hoping for a miracle, but--by all means--let's not ask for any changes in the management. Or the Boards. Or force them to give up their private aircraft and big luxury trips for middle management. Can't have that, now.

someone bail me out i'm in jail.

why don't we give them the 25 billion already approved and then they can pay it back? no,no thats just for little cars,so soon they won't be making any cars.

So they are doomed with a bailout as it will only be a bandaid for years of bad management and union decisions.

And they are doomed without another bailout as they have doomed themselves long before the credit market crisis.

So let's save the taxpayer 25B and let them reorganize and cut the salaries and benefits, create better cars and maybe they will get a break to start over and be better than now.

I hope every working person in America remembers how Mitt shares their pain. What an idiot. His political future just went in the toilet where it belongs.

#3 | Posted by danni

You guys don't have a clue.. Even Michael Moore is nixing this plan because all the 25 billion will be used for are the plants being built by GM and Ford in China and Russia exporting MORE american jobs and providing parachutes to the executives..

25 billion to Detroit is wasted money. Let them be devoured and piecemealed.

MURPHY did you watch the hearings???

Wow! Boeing is doing OK as well as aerobus but trade is done fair here........imagine that.

What a hint.

#13 | Posted by moneywar

really? check the inventories.

RisR bankruptcy will be great for them just like it was for Studebaker, Packard, etc.

Consider that Europe taxed gas heavily for decades and built an industry around expensive fuel costs while we allowed Ronnie Raygun to convince us that...no...we didn't want to do that...we could drive SUVs and Cadillacs....so that is what Detroit built. Are you aware of the changes they have now made??? What would happen to all of the RandD they have already done on cars like the Volt, etc.

I'm aware that General Motors has a negative book value (assets minus liabilities) of $36 billion. Mattel, which makes toy cars, is worth three times more than GM, which makes real ones. So I'm apparently not the only one who is unimpressed by all the changes they have made. The market has decided that GM isn't worth anything. But we can count on Washington to throw more good money after bad. Just because they've guaranteed that Amtrak is too important to fail doesn't mean it's not a lousy company. It is.

RisR bankruptcy will be great for them just like it was for Studebaker, Packard, etc.

* * * *

Better than having Studebaker still on life support only courtesy of the American taxpayer. How about Enron? Should they have been bailed out too? Eastern Airlines? ValuJet? Montgomery Ward? Bob's Hardware?

No Danni--I was working.

They came in on lear jets and begged for money.

Isn't that the jest of the hearings?

One hundred million households in the United States. How many of you are willing to write a check for $250, to see General Motors through to the end of January? And since we all know we're not going to be sending checks, how many would borrow $250, repayable at 3.75% per year, with a balloon note due in 2018?

Merry Christmas!!

My point about Romney is he has no point of reference to know what it's like being an average person. Growing up in the house of the President of American Motors he no doubt heard plenty of anti-union talk. Relations between management and labor have always been contentious. (the Big Three execs spend hundreds of millions on their jet fleets as they lay off workers is one example of being so out of touch).

Romney's career has not been building companies, it's been buying, dissolving, and selling off the remnants - or just moving operations offshore.

Mitt's created far more jobs in China than in the U.S. In my view he isn't the right guy to chime in on this. He isn't a 'turnaround' specialist as much as a carnivore. The folks in Michigan are probably very relieved Mitt didn't get the GOP nod and win the election. He changes spots all too conveniently - as he did between being Governor of Massachusetts and running for President. Looked the same, but with entirely different rhetoric and stances for political expediency.

BTW, new Gallup Poll out today shows only a 34% approval rating for the GOP and 61% disapproval. America's sick of the GOP and their failed policies that only seem to benefit a few.

Danni the dummy blames this on Reagan.

ROTFLLMAO.

Bipartisan group of Congress is now going forward with a compromise bailout....cuz they listend to Danni the dummy.
Bush did too.....he's reconsidering the veto of extending unemployment benefits.

Now it is me that is ROTFLLMAO Slickster!

Head of Honda in America says....WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS is hurting all auto makers not just American auto makers.

Gosh, I scare myself.

"
No Danni--I was working.

They came in on lear jets and begged for money.

Isn't that the jest of the hearings?

I won't be nasty here but if you didn't then you really missed an opportunity to learn about the progress all three companies have made and it is important change. I was very impressed with how much progress they have made. Before you decide on whether or not they should recieve a loan and that is what they have asked for, this is not a gift, you should learn a little more about the companies.

Head of Honda in America says....WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS is hurting all auto makers not just American auto makers.

Gosh, I scare myself.

sure it hurts them. They can't sell as many cars. Only people with good credit history can get loans.

And stop looking in the mirror if you're scared.

BTW I think CEOs of some of the largest corporations on Earth need private jets to carry with them their staffs and operate their companies from romote locations. That was just another talking point distraction to make us all worry more about CEO excess than the overall issues which are far more important.

I was very impressed with how much progress they have made.
And you believed every word they said. Just like you beleived this statement.

Barack Obama, December 27, 2007: "The real gamble in this election is playing the same Washington game with the same Washington players and expecting a different result."

BTW I think CEOs of some of the largest corporations on Earth need private jets to carry with them their staffs and operate their companies from romote locations.
ROTFLMAO.

Danni, you really are stupid.

Now let's see if Washington is really listening to me. If I hear about an idea floating to tie the unemployment rate to the highest income tax rate then we will all know they are hearing Danni.
Seems like a perfectly logical way of increasing employment by using the additional tax funds when unemployment rises to fund infrastructure repair etc. and encourage CEOs to avoid higher taxes by hiring more workers.

Four senators reach bipartisan auto aid deal

WASHINGTON (Reuters) Four senators have reached a bipartisan agreement on a bill to assist the struggling automotive industry, the lawmakers announced in a joint statement on Thursday.

A news conference was planned for 2.30 p.m. "to discuss the details of a bipartisan agreement on a bill to support the auto industry," the statement said.

The lawmakers involved are Michigan Democrats Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, as well as Ohio Republican George Voinovich and Missouri Republican Christopher Bond.

Details of the agreement were not immediately available.

After this gets through the House Reid needs to actually force either a vote or a filibuster and force the Republicans to actually physically carry out the filibuster and stand before their constituents blocking this bailout. I honestly don't think they will do it for very long.

I don't know what this deal entails so I'll hold my fire for now. But I doubt there will be tough conditions on it that will put this companies on the road to being competitive.

After this gets through the House Reid needs to actually force either a vote or a filibuster and force the Republicans to actually physically carry out the filibuster and stand before their constituents blocking this bailout.
* * * *

They won't have to. The Dems will back down.

rightisright, I am sure that the numbers who oppose a bailout are even higher downsouth. Why should someone working downsouth for Toyota, Honda or VW have their taxes go to bailout an inneficient competitor?

Your state is not very popular with our worthless local media up here. Rather than questioning the UAW and Big Three execs, the local media here are a mouthpiece for them, repeating what they put out. One talking point goin around is that "there are many misconceptions about the auto industry", yeah right. We know all too well up here how the domestic auto industry works. No need to lie and cover things up.

True enough. But my state has just as many Senators as Michigan does. I empathize with politicos from the rust belt, who have to throw their votes to sending hundreds of billions of dollars from productive, profitable enterprises to keep the bloated, steaming pile of Detroit detritus going for another quarter. But it's still wrong, and it won't work anyhow.

...so it comes down to those undecided again? There is also a contemporary book which explores the folly and ignorance of the ordinary voter in terms of his understanding of basic economics--or rather, lack thereof: "The Myth of the Rational Voter." The author, an economist at George Mason University, argues that most people are abysmally ignorant of economics, even to the point of not understanding the basic principles of supply and demand, and consequently vote against their own best interests (was that not demonstrated?). As a result, they are anti-globalist, anti-capitalist, and even tend to a belief in conspiracy theories, such as the false belief that the oil companies are price-gouging the public.

We need to distinquish between tradable goods and services and paper shuffling. Farming and Manufacturing, Auto Mechanics, Construction Contractors and even researchers can sustain our economy. Lawyers, accountants, salesman, analysts are an overhead (sometimes necessary) which drain profits.

Our economy has been taken over by the financial sector, which prints and shuffles paper, as money and contracts. By dominating Washington, they have sucked the life out of our economy and are in the midst of emptying the US Treasury. Stock Brokers, Banks and their types represented 2% of all Corporate profits in the fifities and sixties, but today they are skimming 40% of all Corporate porfits. They contribute NOTHING towards our balance of payments, which has become a black hole. Yet, these Ponzi Scheme operators enjoy political protection through bribery, propaganda and secrecy.

You must suffer so that they can own everything, which may soon include the air you breath.

I notice that some who have been quiet about pissing billions away in Iraq are concerned that we may spend a few billion saving 3-5 million jobs.
Are you guys Americans???
REally???

"such as the false belief that the oil companies are price-gouging the public."

Oh yes the wonderful oil companies squeaking by on the largest profits in the history of the world.
Hilarious.

Romney is as smart and able as they come, and is experienced in the field. His advice should be seriously considered.

These companies have some six months of cash to sustain their current losses, which should increase as sales drop due to buyer fears and unavailability of easy credit.

Any infusion of cash would just delay the day of reckoning a short time, at most anohter six months at the rate of loss, and would just cater to the UAW in extending its members pensions, and its own existence as the massive organization it now is.

It has been suggested that the companies go bankrupt and thus rid themselves of contracts and obligations. Then their divisions could be sold to individual entrepreneurs, who will be able to use their creativity and innovation to sink or swim in the marketplace. Some investors will prosper, and others will lose their investments.

A problem would be sustaining the pensioners, who need to have some form of sustanence to live. The depression attendant to losing their good pensions and retirement perquisites would undoubtedly have a very depressing effect and result in premature mortality for many. How to deal with this is something that should be resolved.

Is it tue that people with $10 an hour skills are receiving $50 an hour wages, making competition difficult. I don't know what percentage of the cost of production goes to wages and other personnel costs.

-Romney is as smart and able as they come, and is experienced in the field. His advice should be seriously considered

Amazing how Romney has grown from being the commiepinkoliberalfag Gov of Taxachusetts just a few years hence.

"I notice that some who have been quiet about pissing billions away in Iraq are concerned that we may spend a few billion saving 3-5 million jobs.
Are you guys Americans???
REally???"

#59 | Posted by danni

The argument is whether or not it's actually going to save those jobs. You're just shooting for an emotional response; I guess your arguments for the bail out are running out of steam.

I notice that some who have been quiet about pissing billions away in Iraq are concerned that we may spend a few billion saving 3-5 million jobs.
Are you guys Americans???
REally???

#59 | Posted by danni

I am consistently against all, or most spending, including the Iraq War.

Oh Danni? I see no mention of Adolf Bush.

WASHINGTON (AP) - Democratic leaders in Congress have put off a vote on bailing out the auto industry until next month, and want the top companies to present a plan showing the money will make them financially viable.
"The executives of the auto industry have not been able to convince the American people or the Congress that this bailout would be their last," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada said at a news conference.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said: "Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."

Apparently the Big Three have to present plans on December 8 and then congress will decide if the companies are still viable or not to give them the money.

Funny thing, Senator Kit Bond suggested one thing they should do is start selling corporate jets.

I agree, I want to see them on e-bay by next week.

Even if these asshole executives wanted to travel first class in a commercial flight, that would be a substantial saving, and it goes to credibility and leadership.

Senator Specter now on TV. I am not surprised he is part of this, being a moderate and all.

"The argument is whether or not it's actually going to save those jobs. You're just shooting for an emotional response; I guess your arguments for the bail out are running out of steam."

Did you watch the hearings??

It appears the Big 3 big-wigs thought they could just show up with their hands out, pickup the check and head home on their Corporate Jets. I hate to admit it, but I'm kinda proud of Harry and Nancy for requiring a formal plan.

#59 | Posted by danni at 2008-11-20 02:42 PM

I notice that some who have been quiet about pissing billions away in Iraq are concerned that we may spend a few billion saving 3-5 million jobs.

But the sad fact is that the day of reckoning would only be delayed for a very short period of time. The auto industry has been going down the tubes for years, and the current organizations could not extract themselves from the malaise by pursuing the existing business model.

The industry cannot maintain itself with its current practices. Retooling will cost a fortune. There is no liquidity to enable consumers to buy cars in the numbers they did previously. People are afraind to outlay cash and assume debt as jobs are being cut. Losses will increase, not lessen.

Sometimes it's necessary to break the mold, do major surgery, to enable the industry to survive in the U.S. Otherwise the industry would need a $50 billion to $80 billion cash outlay by the government (that's the taxpayers) annually to survive using its current model.

There's a huge political component now as the UAW and its members may need to confront the reality that conditions are such that not even their political allies symbolized by the Obama adminstration, cannot enable them to survive. They are beyond morbidity and are terminal. I know a lady, who died this past year, and as she passed away, she was calling for her estranged husband to save her. I'm sure that he would had he been able. But there are overriding circumstances that make doing what provides happiness, an impossibility.

Parenthetically danni, you seem to have this "bad guy" mentality, and almost unerringly assign meanness as the reason people oppose what you favor. It's a very simplistic view, danni, and results in failure to explore the reasons advanced, since you can rely on meanness as the operative factor, and that relieves you of any need to understand, and you can be "good and humane."

" I hate to admit it, but I'm kinda proud of Harry and Nancy for requiring a formal plan."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I have a feeling they will leave the corporate jets home when they return in Dec. Probably wear old clothes and shoes with holes in the soles too. Image is everything.

Johnson did you watch the hearings???

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I have a feeling they will leave the corporate jets home when they return in Dec. Probably wear old clothes and shoes with holes in the soles too. Image is everything.

#71 | Posted by danni

I have a feeling that their hearts aren't in it. One of the requirements should be for upper management to leave.

"Parenthetically danni, you seem to have this "bad guy" mentality, and almost unerringly assign meanness as the reason people oppose what you favor. It's a very simplistic view, danni, and results in failure to explore the reasons advanced, since you can rely on meanness as the operative factor, and that relieves you of any need to understand, and you can be "good and humane."

I've been called many things but never simplistic.
I do believe that there has been a conscious effort to destroy the economy so that Democrats would be blamed.

"One of the requirements should be for upper management to leave."

CEOs of Ford and Chrysler have only been there 1-/2 years or so. That's what I have been finding out, these companies are already doing the things that everyone seems to want them to be doing.
Most don't realize Ford turned a profit in the first quarter of 2008. Doesn't that show progress??
Then the credit crisis his and even foreign manufacturers are asking and getting bailout from their governments.

Local TV abruptly cut coverage of the press conference. It seems to me that the conference was initially well organized, but towards the end of the coverage, it appears senators were not all in the same page and kind of arguing, well, they are senators, I am sure they argue over the smallest little technical issue. But the plan to have the big three submit viability plans is still on.

If that's true, could GM be the biggest hurdle? If they are, then shouldn't their requests and plans be examined on an individual basis? It seems like this issue lumps all 3 together.

"One of the requirements should be for upper management to leave."

Which is exactly what would happen if they went into bankruptcy - which is why they don't want to.

Wisgod, what would normally happen when a company is in such bad shape is that they would go through chapter 11 and they would submit a plan to a bankruptcy judge, not congress. But bankruptcy is not on the table so it will fall to congress to analyze these plans.

GM has made tremendous progress and will be fine if given a chance. I must once again remind everyone that this problem is due to the credit crisis and is effect all auto manufacturers not just American.
At the ports foreign cars are parked in the thousands because the dealers can't sell them. Foreign companies are being bailed out too.
Problem is the media has hyped the Lear Jet issue, talked about the problems the Big 3 had a few years back but no one went to see what they are doing today. No one looked at the new UAW contracts.
Johnson says I am simplistic but at least I try to do my homework and find out the facts and they facts indicate that these companies seem worthy of a bailout to get them through the credit crisis.
Of course if it continues for a long time then not just the auto companies but lots of other industries are going down too. In which case the amount we waste trying tosave the auto companies won't matter anyway, it will be the least of our worries.

We don't need to bailout the automakers. The reality is that after 8 years of Bushonomics, coming on the heels of Trickle-down Reaganomics, nobody needs a car because nobody can afford to go anywhere anyway. We can't afford to buy a car because we don't have jobs. Maybe GM can declare bankruptcy and then go into the business of making shantys for Americans to live in... or maybe making canned soup because that's all we can afford to eat... or maybe making those numbered tear-off tickets so we can tell who is due up next to be served in the breadline.

Have any of the posters watched any of the hearings about the bailouts????
Do you know about any of the changes the auto makers have already made, about the new contracts with UAW???

#25 | Posted by danni

You tell me how detroit can survive with a $70 per hour labor rate when other auto makers in the US have a $40 an hour rate?

Danni, the reason I bring up management was that Sen. Carl Levin said that he'd be more than happy to ask the execs to step down on last Sunday's Meet the Press. He must not aggree that they are doing such a great job.

We don't need to bailout the automakers. The reality is that after 8 years of Bushonomics, coming on the heels of Trickle-down Reaganomics, nobody needs a car because nobody can afford to go anywhere anyway. We can't afford to buy a car because we don't have jobs. Maybe GM can declare bankruptcy and then go into the business of making shantys for Americans to live in... or maybe making canned soup because that's all we can afford to eat... or maybe making those numbered tear-off tickets so we can tell who is due up next to be served in the breadline.

you should run for congress.

I wonder which party you would be welcome in?

"Did you watch the hearings??"

#68 | Posted by danni

After the pleadings of a few CEOs, even Danni supports massive corporate welfare. I guess Obama did bring change after all.

After the pleadings of a few CEOs, even Danni supports massive corporate welfare. I guess Obama did bring change after all.

Hell, yesterday she advocated bring in more cheap immigrant labor to bring down wages!!!!

Seriously.

LiveorDie you do realize the auto makers are asking for a loan not a gift and we have loaned auto makers money before and made money doing it too.

#87 | Posted by danni

From what I herd on CSPAN they were calling it help and support not a loan.

No, I watched the same hearings and they definitely discussed repayment.

"Hell, yesterday she advocated bring in more cheap immigrant labor to bring down wages!!!!"

Riiight.
What is Eberly smoking???

"No, I watched the same hearings and they definitely discussed repayment."

#89 | Posted by danni

Thank goodness. I was worried for a second there.

And if they can't pay back, we can just bail them out for real.

Will bankruptcy solve the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS???
No??
Then it won't solve the problem of the auto makers at all.
You're welcome.

#22 | Posted by danni
That's about as stupid an analogy as I've heard in a while. Bankruptcy laws in this country are there for a reason and the auto industry is a perfect example of a business that could benefit from them. It will allow them to restructure and get rid of waste and allow them to have a chance to thrive again. Throwing money at them will only delay the inevitable.

If you're so wise, Danni, why don't you tell us all how giving them a ton of money is going to straighten out the mess they've created.

It's easy to keep professional wages high by preventing trained immigrants from competing in professional fields, associations that act as unions, laws that limit who can practice, etc.

#35 | Posted by danni at 2008-11-19 03:18 PM | Reply

Sounds like the support of bring cheap immigrant labor to bring down wages.

Obviously I didn't specify what industries...Danni admits that she is full of class envy and doesn't give a fuck about anybody but herself

"If you're so wise, Danni, why don't you tell us all how giving them a ton of money is going to straighten out the mess they've created."

"Will bankruptcy solve the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS???"

You still haven't been able to even consider my point. This is a WORLDWIDE CRIDIT CRISIS effecting all auto manufacturers not just American and foreign governments are helping thier nations' companies already.

Clue: THEY DID NOT CAUSE THE WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS.

Understand yet???

"Obviously I didn't specify what industries...Danni admits that she is full of class envy and doesn't give a fuck about anybody but herself"

When you can't make arguments make personal attacks.

When you can't make arguments make personal attacks.

translation - I have just been shown to be a liar.

I'm just putting a little seasoning on the roast pork.

LiveorDie you do realize the auto makers are asking for a loan not a gift and we have loaned auto makers money before and made money doing it too.

#87 | Posted by danni

And what happens in 6 months when they actually do go bankrupt? Say good-bye to that money then. I don't know why you feel so certain they can pay it back. The way they've been performing they wouldn't even make a dent in paying off a loan of that size.

Like I said Eberly, make an argument, refute a fact, posit a theory, do anything to prove you can do more than just name call. You can't so you won't.

I have to go but I will repeat that I would prefer us to give the money directly to the workers who will be let go in this mess. I don't want any money to flow through the hands of the mgt that is responsible for this mess.

refute a fact

done a thousand times here.

Clue: THEY DID NOT CAUSE THE WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS.

Understand yet???

#94 | Posted by danni

No shit, but they did cause their extremely horrific perfomance over the past few decades. These companies don't turn profits that often at all. At least they haven't for some time. If they had been making money the current credit crisis would not be such a strain on them and they wouldn't be asking for money. You're trying to lay all the blame on one thing and that just isn't the case.

"And what happens in 6 months when they actually do go bankrupt? Say good-bye to that money then."

No argument from me about that and it is a distinct possibility but don't give them the loan and we won't know if the companies could actually be saved or not and if they do go down very likely the whole economy will too so the money we lose will be insignificant in the overall scheme of things.
Cynicism will not lead us out of this mess.
I too am tempted to go down that road and just say fuck it, it's too late to save them but the consequences are too great and I care about my kids and grandkids. We have to at least try to fix the economy Bush and the Republicans have destroyed.

You're trying to lay all the blame on one thing and that just isn't the case.

dannihatesreagan has to pin every ill on reagan. read her posts. a credit crisis lets her do that.

"You're trying to lay all the blame on one thing and that just isn't the case."

No I'm not. I listened to the CEOs tell the Senators about the changes they have already made, listened to the UAW guy talk about the new contracts with much lower wages and acceptance of the health care costs, etc. and listened to them describe the R & D they have already spent billions on for new product lines and I think they do have a good chance of succeeding. However, the credit crisis will deprive them of the opportunity to prove they can without a loan now. I am, at least, basing my opinion on more than just Sean Hannity's opinion or my own impression of American cars of the past.

"dannihatesreagan has to pin every ill on reagan."

Eberly how much debt did Reagan leave behind???

Gotta go.

" how much debt did Reagan leave behind???"

Danni, how much of the "clinton growth" did his policies allow?

Mitt is a corporate raider and he is just salivating to buy one of the big three so he can dismantle it and sell it to the highest bidder.

A true American

Dollar before Country.

This is funny coming from a man who made his money buying companies, cutting them up and sending American jobs overseas.

Clue: THEY DID NOT CAUSE THE WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS.

Understand yet???

#94 | Posted by danni

* * * * *

Actually, they played a bigger role than nearly any private company. Their GMAC finance unit issued hundreds of thousands of subprime mortgage; only Countrywide funded more. Tack onto that their GMAC credit cards and subprime car loans, and you've got a house of cards built on people who can't pay you back.

Happy to educate. It's what I do.

RiR

GM sold a controlling stake in GMAC 2 1/2 years ago to
Ceberus private equity group. Were they making subprime loans before then? I don't know. I'm asking.

GM still owns 49% of GMAC. And I know they were selling subprime as early as 2001, because they bought mine.

Not to mention the credit cards, where a percentage of purchases would go toward a down payment on a new car, the car loans themselves . . .

The BIG 3 responded to a luring American trend towards SUVs , Trucks, Luxury.

Then the Repubs invented ways to constantly reward big oil, drugs and financials (contributors)

- tripled gas prices so nobody wants to buy them
- choked off financing so nobody can buy them
- violently refused and vetoed any type of medical increases, plans or help for any Americans or families
which also increased the big 3 retiree annual medical costs into the 10s of billions

AMERICANS want brawn and if Gas prices stay low, like under Dems, they will be selling big beautiful guzzlers again soon...

Gunner didn't get the memo. Obama will be putting in big tax hikes on oil companies, and pushing for a new green economy with 5 million new jobs growing corn to burn in motors, and building windmills to save General Electric. This will help car makers all right, but not the ones that operate out of Detroit.

"This will help car makers all right, but not the ones that operate out of Detroit."

Typical Republican, no faith in America.
Every cent invested in other countries is money which should have rebuilt American industry but those investing pretend to love this country but, in truth, believe America is over.

I listened to the CEOs tell the Senators about the changes they have already made, listened to the UAW guy talk about the new contracts with much lower wages and acceptance of the health care costs, etc. and listened to them describe the R & D they have already spent billions on for new product lines and I think they do have a good chance of succeeding.

this coming from the idiot that supported a previous bailout 3 weeks before she realized the information surrounding it was complete horseshit.

LOL

Until Detroit breaks ties with the unions, it will not be able to compete with the major world automakers. Unions had their place in our history. But when an asset becomes a liability, the need for such liability must be seriously evaluated. Unions+employer over inflated cost per employee (salary +) is the root cause of their problem.

The south as reinvented itself into the "New Detroit." Most if not all of the major world automakers (other than the Big Three) have major manufacturing plants of some-kind in the south. They pay better than a living wage, better benefit packages than just about anyone in their area, and are thriving.

Toyota has it in their business plan to set money aside in good times, to be able to pay for salary and benefits (and other necessities) during the bad.

Maybe Detroit can learn a few lessons from them.

Ford take s a net loss of $1,500 on every car that is sold. SOme business model. Ford will never repay these loans and will be looking for more csh this time next year. The single biggest expense to Fod is labor. Move the factories to Tennessee and cut labot costs

Moron Timbci, Ford actually made a profit during the first quarter of 2008 but then the credit crisis hit. Try again.

"this coming from the idiot that supported a previous bailout 3 weeks before she realized the information surrounding it was complete horseshit."

Eberidiot which information was horse shit???
You seem to think the bailout was unnecessary but offer no facts to support it and it is odd that many other nations have had to also bail out their banks. Once again you run your mouth without engaging your brain.

You seem to think the bailout was unnecessary but offer no facts to support it

no I don't. Not one of them. I'm not necessarily saying a bailout is a mistake. I am referring to your comments that you believed some of the executives earlier that said they needed these bailouts.

Get you head out of your ass. Ford had loss of $2.7 Billion for the year in 2007. You are correct they did make a profit of $100 million in the first quarter of 2008 but that was due to increased sales in Europe and South America. I suggest you learn how to read a balance sheet. Car and truck sales decreased in North America in the first quarter of this year. Fords was losing money long before the credit crisis.

Head of Honda in America says....WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS is hurting all auto makers not just American auto makers.

Gosh, I scare myself.

#43 | Posted by danni at

then help me to understand how each of the big three sells cars LIKE CRAZY in other parts of the world such as china and other places
it might have something to do with the PRODUCT they put out in europe, for instance, as well as UNION RESTRICTIONS HERE In the us

and none of this is to underplay what you are saying here about getting credit but if you REALLY want a car.....someone somewhere will sell you a car regardless of your credit..

Making hay with a big gamble this early...
you can bet he is running for President again
in 2012. O.k. so lets see, 2 members of the
2012 Republican ticket are Romney and Palin...

Gee, and I thought they wanted a "fresh" approach...

"then help me to understand how each of the big three sells cars LIKE CRAZY in other parts of the world such as china and other places"

apparently they build the cars they want in those places, unfortunately here in the US our consumers have been a little difficult to figure out.
Just a couple years ago everyone wanted and SUV, then gas went to $4 and they wanted high mileage or hybrids now gas goes back down...will they go back to SUVs???
Europe heavily taxed gasoline for many years so all of their consumers always wanted great gas mileage, it made it a little easier to know what products to design. We need to take advantage of the lower gas prices and do the same thing now and force consumers to want higher gas mileage just like most other countries have always done.

We kissed the American auto industry goodbye the moment the UAW took over GM!

What company can compete with anyone with such boneheaded schemes as the jobsbank farce?

The only good thing about GM going under is it will kill the UAW too!

Good riddance!

bs,

personally I begrudge GM's leadership, who take more and more as they run the company into the ground kowtowing to Wall Street instead of running their company.

Those who begrudge $80/hour for an assembly line worker while not giving a thought to the wasteful scoundrels pocketing $32,000/hour for fucking up.

no bailouts without firing top management.

What's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $24 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.