My husband works for the UAW @ GM.
He earns $35.00/hr to mount tires (+ bennies).
As an expert in his craft, he has no rival.

Bankruptcy would be ruinous.
If BushCo can bail out the wealthy,
why not help the UAW?

Be Well.

Seems to me that with so many jobs on the line the UAW needs to offer to re-re-negotiate their contracts. Something is better than nothing.

Danni, unfortunately people like you are not in charge of the UAW. They have bled GM dry with no regard for the consequences.

What is ruinous is the management of the Big Three who blame others for their outright incompetence as well as astronically high salary and benefit packages for the UAW workers and retirees.

Skip, the question is, why didn't the UAW help itself by working with management to avert this disaster? Why didn't they take a small pay cut years ago when they had the chance? Not to let those ridiculously greedy managers and CEOs off the hook. Blame goes all around here.

GM, Ford and Chrysler have had all the time in the world to turn things around, yet American cars are still shitty. They let the Japanese get a 7 year head start on hybrids while they continued to make gas-sucking SUVs and promote "performance" cars.

Will is right. The best thing for the "Big 3" right now is bankruptcy. If you bail out the auto companies, you may as well bail out every single company in the United States.

BTW Mitt Romney also agrees that the Big Three should go bankrupt. I no one else posts it (front or back page) I will post it tomorrow in the back page.

Question, what happens if GM goes Chapter 11 in regards to pensions???
Does the federal government get stuck with the tab??
How much would that cost??

I don't know how much it would cost, but I would think that indeed the PBGC would assume that responsiblities.

I think that the PBGC should gradually be faced out. Those who receive benefits can continue. But I think companies should be encourages to provide 401(k) for their employees and employees should also be encouraged to get IRAs if they don't like 401(k). Pensions, like Social Security, are a kind of pyramid scheme.

Danni,

I don't know what GM's liabilities are to the pension. there is a pension guarantee fund that the govt sponsors but it has gotten bled by the airlines and other industries and their pensions.

I don't really know how that will work.

probably not well for the employees.

$35 to change a tire is ridiculous.
Never heard of someone make close to $70,000 to change a tire

In Japan a CEO makes only several times the wage of the lowest paid hourly worker. They also take a cut in pay before engaging in layoffs as a last resort. They consider it a shameful act due to their negligence to lay off workers.

Management at the Big Three and dumping by Japanese manufacturers for many years to gain market share are the problem, not the workers. You can't compete with a Japanese company that sells cars at a loss in the U.S. to gain market share. Thus, the Big Three stuck with building bigger vehicles where they could make a profit for many years. The small car market was lost to them by the time Japanese automakers started making a profit here.

#1 | Posted by skip_wellington

In reply.

I am a union man, Master Electrician and business owner to be precise.

$35.00 an Hour to change a tire is ridiculous.

Our Foreman earn right around that amount and the amount of knowledge and technical ability they posess is stagering, not to mention their organizational ability, management and people skills.

You can't compete with a Japanese company that sells cars at a loss in the U.S. to gain market share.

We tried that....we just sold cars at a loss to lose market share.

In Japan a CEO makes only several times the wage of the lowest paid hourly worker. They also take a cut in pay before engaging in layoffs as a last resort. They consider it a shameful act due to their negligence to lay off workers.

We could model that here and, as already pointed out, it wouldn't help the big 3 out of this mess.

their pay structure differential is but a page in the book that we don't seem to be able to read.

$35.00 an Hour to change a tire is ridiculous.

I saw that and wanted to respond similarly but perhaps Skip can expand on just exactly what she means by a skill that has no "rival".

There is a government account for default pension funds but there is no way that it could handle what the UAW has been promised.

George Will is the best economist out there. I trust him and agree that the automakers need to fail. Failures deserves their just rewards, this includes the boards, CEO's management and the UAW workers. Unfortunately it's the rest of us that will also bear the burden until the displaced works find jobs or hit SS age.

25 billion would be just a postponement of the day reality hits. Nothing can save their collective bargaining agreements or pay the kind of wages and benefits they have been promised.

THe questions is will we sit by and let the admin and congress waste 25 - 50 billion away from a real recovery.

GM has a net loss of $1,500 for every car they sell..
Just for the record, Japanese car manufactures make a smakk fortune in US car slaes. The Camry is the sedan Americans love

I somewhat agree that $35.00 per hour is excessive for changing a tire but by the same token $100,000 to an accountant does too. Most professionals earn far more than they deserve including management folks at the automakers.

Keep buying new Japanese and Korean cars and trucks all you super patriot American auto industry haters. You're job is next when 3 million direct and indirect auto industry jobs are lost. How much will foreclosures, food stamps, health care, unemployment, et all cost you when they're out of work.

You'll discover the true meaning of 'trickle down' economics.

A few nights ago I saw a cable news piece on the auto industry. Apparently there workers who receive a total of about $75 an hours when health and retirement benefit are factored in. Wow. I'm an experienced, educated and respected lawyer, and yet the County doesn't pay me (or any other County attorney) that much. No wonder the auto industry is in such trouble.
I also heard that the calculated cost for health and retirement benefits for each union made American cars comes out to about $1600 per car. For non-union made Toyota cars it comes out to @ $250 a car.
I support unions in general, including the UAW, but at what point do they do more harm than good?

Although it is the UAW contracts that many are complaining about, the UAW is not the villan. It is politicians that have allowed an uneven economic playing field to exist.

That uneven playing field is all around us and was brought on by globalization and free trade. Force all players to play by the same rules and lets see who emerges victorious. Currently, everyone wants the UAW to be busted. Why not force the other manufacturer's that produce cars in the US to unionize? Why not place a tariff on cars being imported into the US which would remove their competitive advantage because of low labor costs? Why is it that the only solution that is being considered is one that will drive down labor rates and the standard of living of the workers?

That said, there are other issues that the American automobile companies probably have to come to terms with that only a government facilitated bankruptcy would address i.e. poor management, business processes, dealer support, product quality, etc.

"THe questions is will we sit by and let the admin and congress waste 25 - 50 billion away from a real recovery."

It't not that simple. It is also a question of whether our economy can withstand 3 million additional unemployed, whether delaying a thorough and voluntary restructuring of the auto makers wouldn't make more sense in light of our economy's present state, whether delaying projects like the Chevy Volt, etc. won't kill any chance of ever really rebuilding our auto companies.
I have come around to the view from what I've seen so far is that all concerned seem to be thinking "inside the box" when outside is really needed badly right now. Perhaps someone like Bill Gates and a few others should look into this and tell us what could be done to avoid bankruptcy and insure that the companies become profitable.

I somewhat agree that $35.00 per hour is excessive for changing a tire but by the same token $100,000 to an accountant does too. Most professionals earn far more than they deserve including management folks at the automakers.

Hogwash!!!! they earn it if their companies make profits off of it.

Are we confident that management at the big three can get their shit together if we hand them more money?

Are we confident that management at the big three can get their shit together if we hand them more money?

excellent question.

I'm going with "NO"

"GM has a net loss of $1,500 for every car they sell.."

I've also read that $1,500 is approximately the cost of health care for employees when figured out by unit sold.
National health care would help solve this problem. I read that Toyota chose to locate a new factory in.....Canada for that very reason.

Friends, there is blame to be placed everywhere, but let's make sure that we don not blame people for things that are note blameworthy. Yes, contracts signed in the past (especially health and retirement benefits) have assured that GM, Ford, and Chrysler have higher labor costs, but remember that when those contracts were signed, far more workers were needed to build cars. When Toyota, Honda, and the other companies came to America to start production, they cam at a time when automation had reduced the number of workers needed. So, while there are huge numbers of Motown retirees, there are few non-Detroit retirees.

Also, while many are upset about the pay that UAW workers get, there are many historic reasons for this. Autoworkers in the past worked long hours in very unsafe conditions for limited compesation. The unions literally changed the lives of these men and women. They also changed the lives of non-auto workers, for those unskilled workers who lived near auto factories saw their wages increase, also. They could ask for more money since there were other jobs available that paid well. The middleclass blue-collar laboror is a result, in many ways, of the UAW.

While management can be blamed for making stupid decisions, and workers can be blamed for their apparent greed, let's remember that these are far more complex issues than we are alluding to on this post.

Also, let us all remember that the factories that have been placed in the southern half of the States are their not just because of the weakness of Unions in that part of the country, but because local governments have given outright gifts of money, land, and tax credits. I am sure it does not equal the 25 billion Detroit is asking for, but these plants certainly received governmental help.

"Hogwash!!!! they earn it if their companies make profits off of it."

ER...apparently not....the auto makers are losing billions. How can you say that the labor costs are ruining GM without including those for management???

And the big three automakers flew to Washington in their Private Jets. That's an insult to the Tax Payers!!!

Let them go down and restructure!!!!

Danni, I was not referring to the auto makers. I was referring to "professionals" in general.

AMERICANUNITY, in the auto industry, companies around the world are linked. Your comment about "buying Japanese and Korean" being "anti-American" is old school and downright bogus.

The problem we're currently seeing in the U.S. is just that - problems WITHIN the U.S - unions versus management, wages, working conditions, unrealistically rich retirement packages etc. Unfortunately, this puts more emphasis on the unions being at fault rather than management, although neither party is completely free of blame. The problem we're seeing now is a general failure of America to compete in the world market. Americans sell their cars AROUND THE WORLD. The Japanese and Korean (and Chinese and Swedish and German etc.) also sell their cars AROUND THE WORLD.

Funny enough, some American car parts are manufactured OUTSIDE of the U.S. then shipped into the U.S. for assembly. The opposite is also true.

For more info on how the auto industries around the world are linked, check out this graphic:

MODER8

Anytime someone (as you did) makes a comparison between the private and public sectors it's apples and oranges.

The President of The United States (CEO) makes $400,000.

Many CEO's easily make 10 times that much in the private sector.

PS I'll bet the UAW bashers all drive Japanese cars. Figures.

Also, let us all remember that the factories that have been placed in the southern half of the States are their not just because of the weakness of Unions in that part of the country, but because local governments have given outright gifts of money, land, and tax credits. I am sure it does not equal the 25 billion Detroit is asking for, but these plants certainly received governmental help.

so what if they received governmental help? It was a local decision to attract jobs to their area. Smart move IMO.

Many industries benefit from local tax breaks as an incentive to locate a factory to a community.

"I was referring to "professionals" in general."

It's easy to keep professional wages high by preventing trained immigrants from competing in professional fields, associations that act as unions, laws that limit who can practice, etc.

My husband works for the UAW @ GM.
He earns $35.00/hr to mount tires (+ bennies).
As an expert in his craft, he has no rival.

Bankruptcy would be ruinous.
If BushCo can bail out the wealthy,
why not help the UAW?

Be Well.

#1 | Posted by skip_wellington

$35.00/hr isn't wealthy? Shoot, I wish I were doin' that well. Maybe you're husband is too rich and should be spreading his wealth more to me?

"Also, let us all remember that the factories that have been placed in the southern half of the States are their not just because of the weakness of Unions in that part of the country,"

But it was the major consideration. Those tax breaks, etc. just helped the companies decide where in those states they would locate.

It's easy to keep professional wages high by preventing trained immigrants from competing in professional fields, associations that act as unions, laws that limit who can practice, etc.

You are kidding right? I thought you didn't like immigrant labor coming here and driving down wages.

How much should a worker with 20 years experience on an auto assembly line earn???

"I thought you didn't like immigrant labor coming here and driving down wages."

I don't really, especially when it is only the blue collar jobs which are effected while the white collar folks seem to not really be bothered. Let them compete with folks willing to work for half the money and see how they like it. I'm sure that there are some fine dentists, accountants, etc. in India who might like to relocate here.

How much should a worker with 20 years experience on an auto assembly line earn???

As we have learned by this last election, experience isn't the issue.

I don't really, especially when it is only the blue collar jobs which are effected while the white collar folks seem to not really be bothered. Let them compete with folks willing to work for half the money and see how they like it.

My industry (software consulting) is overrun with immigrants which have seriously driven the pay down.

The Big 3 wouldn't be in the hole that they are in if they would make a product that the people want.... People buy the toyotas because they are more fuel efficient (at least the newer ones) and reliable.... My husband has a Toyota Tacoma that he practically runs into the ground without having to get it serviced very often... I know that I would pay more for an American version of the Toyota... Because I support buying American made products (even if they are only assembled here) to support our workforce... however, I am not going buy what could be considered a shoddy product that doesn't have what I want on it anyway...

It also doesn't really help GM (I don't know about the other two but they could be similar) when they extend the employee discount to all the retires and their families including the current employees... I know this because my grandparents used to work for GM back in the 70's - 90's and my grandmother is constantly telling me that when I am looking to buy a car to come talk to her...

The American Auto Industry is in a downfall of its own making... and as much as I worry about my grandparents if something does happen to their benefits, the auto industry should not be bailed out... it would be a major mistake... the Big 3 will not change their ways if they are bailed out... they will continue to make a product that no one wants to buy and they will be right back where they are now.... with that said, if something happens to GM (and the others) that jeopardizes my grandparents health care or their pension I will be more than willing to help them get through this time... and I am sure the rest of my family will too.

This needs to be repeated:

GM, Ford and Chrysler have had all the time in the world to turn things around, yet American cars are still shitty. They let the Japanese get a 7 year head start on hybrids while they continued to make gas-sucking SUVs and promote "performance" cars.

They refused to innovate, fix quality control. And bribed the government to keep mileage standards low. They sunk themselves.

Bail them out but:
1. Fire Management

2. Stop industry lobbying efforts, use the money
for the below.....

3. Require European or Japanese standards for efficiency

4. Research to move beyond gas in 10 years or less.

5. Reorganize labor and supply agreements.

Lou Dobbs was right. If you want to be patriotic, start talking to your congressman about why he's letting all those manufacturing jobs go overseas.

#32 | Posted by Apocalypto

Who allowed Japanese auto manufacturers to dump cars at a loss in the U.S. to monopolize the small car market? Think early to mid 1980's

How much should a worker with 20 years experience on an auto assembly line earn???

Labor is a commodity

I've also read that $1,500 is approximately the cost of health care for employees when figured out by unit sold.
National health care would help solve this problem

horseshit.

"National health care would help solve this problem

horseshit."

If you took the burden off of auto makers to pay for health care it would most certainly help them compete, to say otherwise is ridiculous. It's a large cost, removing it would help them. Whether or not it is good for the nation is a seperate argument which we disagree on (I think) but that is not relevant to this discussion.

Who allowed Japanese auto manufacturers to dump cars at a loss in the U.S. to monopolize the small car market? Think early to mid 1980's

Oh Great. Did you do that on purpose AU...knowing Danni was here?

My industry (software consulting) is overrun with immigrants which have seriously driven the pay down.

#42 | Posted by FedUpWithPols

Last year in NYC I saw the results of H-1B workers on the financial district. Thousands of Americans laid off and thousands of Chinese and Indian H-1B workers doing their jobs for a fraction of the pay. All while the CEO's and upper management showered themselves with multimillion dollar paydays and bonuses.

Labor is a commodity

Unfortunately that is true but only because we have allowed our businesses to treat it as such.

Labor rates are directly proportional to one's standard of living and, by treating labor as a commodity, we seek to drive down its value or eliminate it all together. And, by doing so, we are driving down people's standard of living.

In the long run, we all suffer if the standard of living of increasingly large portions of Americans is driven down to near subsistence levels. Who's going to fund the schools, roads, bridges, etc.? The wealthy? Of course not! They will hire their private tutors, hire private doctors, etc.

If you took the burden off of auto makers to pay for health care it would most certainly help them compete, to say otherwise is ridiculous. It's a large cost, removing it would help them. Whether or not it is good for the nation is a seperate argument which we disagree on (I think) but that is not relevant to this discussion.

You can't remove the burden off of auto makers to pay for health care. That bill has be paid by somebody. The Big 3 represent a HUGE amount of labor in the country. What they represent in health care costs exceeds some states. Healthcare is their own damn problem.

You believe that healthcare just falls out of the sky if it is "national".

Jesus.

Who allowed Japanese auto manufacturers to dump cars at a loss in the U.S. to monopolize the small car market? Think early to mid 1980's

Oh Great. Did you do that on purpose AU...knowing Danni was here?

Posted by eberly at 2008-11-19 03:32 PM

No. I wrote it because it's the God's honest truth.

In the same manner pharmas dump prescription drugs on foreign markets to gain share and stiff us over here to do so.

You believe that healthcare just falls out of the sky if it is "national".

Jesus.

#52 | Posted by eberly

Strangely enough, the largest provider of health care in the U.S. - Medicare - is able to provide top notch health care for a fraction of what the private sector pays, with 2% overhead in administrative fees, and doctors all over making a good living dispensing it.

Go figure, eh?

Unfortunately that is true but only because we have allowed our businesses to treat it as such

Well, it is a commodity and it should be a commodity. However, I agree that a standard of living needs to be maintained and the allowance of cheap labor to imported into this country has obvious pain attached to it.

"Thousands of Americans laid off and thousands of Chinese and Indian H-1B workers doing their jobs for a fraction of the pay."

I'm thinking many of those laid off reconsidered their political party affiliation.

"You believe that healthcare just falls out of the sky if it is "national"."

No, I consider it a right and one that would cost us far less if we cut the insurance industry out of the equation. National health care would make American companies more competitive with foreign companies. We don't agree, we already know that.

Go figure, eh?

#55 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

you missed the point. national health care (whatever you or danni think that means) won't help GM nor the auto workers any.

cost is cost. when you use a small sample of people to magnify problems in obtaining health care then fine but the big 3 are huge. they are their own pool.....taking care of their own.

Strangely enough, the largest provider of health care in the U.S. - Medicare - is able to provide top notch health care for a fraction of what the private sector pays, with 2% overhead in administrative fees, and doctors all over making a good living dispensing it.

apples and oranges.

In the same manner pharmas dump prescription drugs on foreign markets to gain share and stiff us over here to do so.

It is not quite the same because for many of these drugs, there is no competition. I remember reading somewhere that foreign gov'ts restricts what the pharma industry can charge for their meds because they have nationalized health care. The bargaining for the price of meds is done at the national level. I am also under the understanding that their is no advertising for meds in foreign countries.

Well, it is a commodity and it should be a commodity. However, I agree that a standard of living needs to be maintained and the allowance of cheap labor to imported into this country has obvious pain attached to it.

#56 | Posted by eberly

If and when you receive your pink slip you may not choose to consider yourself a 'commodity'.

You think the UAW was started out of some Commie plot? It was born out of the frustration of an underpaid and overworked workforce with no job security, miserable working conditions, and general abuse by management.

Henry Ford knew if you didn't pay people a living wage they couldn't buy your cars, and thus the unheard of $5 a day wage began. Problem was, once things got rolling he started shitting on his employees.

When people can't afford cars they also can't afford a plethora of other manufactured goods and services.

You might be next if the auto industy fails.

"apples and oranges."

Riiight....good come back there.

apples and oranges.

#58 | Posted by eberly at 2008-11-19 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Pls explain.

George Will and those who are so opposed to the bailout out qualify as gamblers. They seem willing to gamble the economy on the U.S. on their ideological belief in the justice of the market.
Those same folks have been wrong about just about everything for the past eight years, why on Earth would we continue to listen to them now????

Ask yourself this....WWBCD????

You think the UAW was started out of some Commie plot? It was born out of the frustration of an underpaid and overworked workforce with no job security, miserable working conditions, and general abuse by management.

I don't disagree with you.

If and when you receive your pink slip you may not choose to consider yourself a 'commodity'

but I AM a commodity...like you.

What is happening right now is just a nasty realization of this fact.

WWBCD = what would Bill Clinton do????

Medicare - is able to provide top notch health care for a fraction of what the private sector pays, with 2% overhead in administrative fees, and doctors all over making a good living dispensing it.
-------

Yeah Medicare is so awesome that it's going broke.
Great point.

"What is happening right now is just a nasty realization of this fact."

And after spending 700 B to take the "nasty" out of the banking crisis 25 B doesn't sound like much to take the "nasty" out of reorganizing and modernizing the automakers. Can't forget, Ford turned a profit in the first quarter of 2008, then the global credit crisis hit them, that wasn't bad management or union wage demands. That just stopped sales. If we can bail out banks we can and should bail out the Big Three.

but I AM a commodity...like you.

What is happening right now is just a nasty realization of this fact.

The point is that it doesn't have to be that way. Equalize the playing field and let the best management/labor team win. We don't have an equal playing field.

Bill CLinton would appoint Bob Rubin, the man that has spent the last few years haelping destroy CITI

EBERLY

Medicare TELLS doctors what THEY'LL pay, not the other way around. Magically, the doctors and other providers accept what they'll pay and make a profit.

Health care has gone up at 3x the rate of inflation for a few decades. Why is that? Especially when the same procedures can cost a fraction in another country. MRI's and CATSCANS in Australia, for instance, average about $200. My dad's back surgery in 1964 (including 10 days hospitalization) was $2000 - slightly more than a Chevy. Today, it'll cost a Rolls-Royce's worth in dollars. See what's wrong?

We need to take the massive profits out of health care. Pharmas charge you $100 for the same drugs you can buy for $5 in other countries. The GOP made it illegal to negotiate prescription prices under Plan-B. Just ducky.

Set reasonable prices for health care and prescriptions, tell 'em "that's all we're paying", get a massive pool of people to spread the risk, lower administrative costs (up to 20% in the private sector), and VOILA!, you have affordable, good health care and everyone still makes a profit.

First of all, I am not stumping for health insurance companies and railing against some sort of single pay health care system in this country. I recognize that health care is crucial and we should extend our efforts to offer access to quality medical care to everyone.

However, with that said, the medicare example relating to operating costs are not a fair comparison. we do not judge medicare on the same basis we judge a health care insurer.

Medicare collects from everyone and pays for a few.

Medicare has no competitor.

I see medicare make absolutely horrible decisions with regard to cost....like spending $80K on some procedure on a 88 year old to extend their life 4 days. They pay out enormous sums of money on folks and they don't have to worry about upping premiums of other insureds like a health insurance company does.

I could go on but I am simply asserting that comparing medicare to a private insurer is not apples to apples. I'm not railing against medicare.

We shall have nationalized healthcare.

It has long been recognized that communism goes against human nature and thus can never work. I believe it is equally true that capitalism and liberty go against human nature and cannot survive. Freedom will be destroyed by the lazy, the incompetent, the fanatic, and the busybodies; capitalism will fall to the weak, the greedy, the envious, and the malicious. We now have a state so powerful and so democratic that it can, at the mere whim of the ignorant mob or the reckless demagogue, utterly destroy anything or anyone it wishes. It is a leviathan out of control that threatens the lives, property, and freedom of every citizen. Liberty has been an aberration in the history of the human race. Its time has come and gone, and we are now returning to our usual condition of servitude.

Not Ted Kennedy, not Hilary Clinton but...Dennis Kucinich should be designing our new health care system.

Yeah Liberty, that explains why it works in every other industrialized nation.

Yeah Medicare is so awesome that it's going broke.
Great point.

#66 | Posted by the_nether

They borrowed from the SS Trust Fund or both would be in good shape.

The Medicare Plan-B is a cash cow for the pharma industry. Illegal to negotiate prices a company of 40 can get? Criminal. There's what YOUR guys did when given the chance.

Lower wages and rising unemployment mean less revenue. Do the math

Way to look out for our seniors and protect Medicare ! (snark)

Gee why were they forced to borrow and who began all that borrowing?????

Hmmm....I think I smell a tax cut for the rich.

"Medicare collects from everyone and pays for a few."

Completely irrelevant. It's the cost per patient that matters, how you raise the money is a seperate issue. If we took all the premiums paid to health insurance companies now we could provide equal quality care for the entire nation for the same cost. Eliminate the need for thousands of bankruptcies, lower costs by treating patients before they are critical, etc.

Health care has gone up at 3x the rate of inflation for a few decades. Why is that?

Well for one, we have 3 times as many medical advances and enhancements to offer people.

Neonatal, heart, cancer, etc....there are many things we can do today that we couldn't do in 1964.

EB

And those diagnostic and other pieces of equipment are paid for before they're a year old.

Completely irrelevant. It's the cost per patient that matters, how you raise the money is a seperate issue.

Fine. what is the cost per patient for a medicare patient versus a private insurer? In terms of dollars.

Somehow Kleenex in a hospital room rose to $60 a box, and the unused bedpan (she was in a coma) was $22 a day (as per my sister's last hospital bill)

what YOUR guys
#75 | POSTED BY AMERICANUNITY
-----

Who exactly do you presume are MY GUYS?

Medicare is a broken system and if you do the math you'd realize that. Instead you leverage seniors to make an emotional play for your precious public healthcare system and play partisan politics instead of addressing the problem. My guys, your guys, who the hell cares. If they have a D or an R after their name they are not looking out for you or I.

A broken system is a broken system, no matter who you choose to blame it on.

Au and Danni are quite the scholars.

they are doctors, accountants, medical research experts, economists, and global foreign policy experts also.

:-(

Medicare collects from everyone and pays for a few.

Private insurers collect from many and pay for just a few. People pay for Medicare throughout their working lives. They continue to pay (thru direct deductions from SS payments) in retirement. However, it is just in retirement that they can start receiving the benefit.

Medicare has no competitor.

Yes they do. You aren't required to accept Medicare once you retire. If you don't, Medicare payments will not be deducted from you SS payments. Any retiree can purchase private insurance.

Somehow Kleenex in a hospital room rose to $60 a box, and the unused bedpan (she was in a coma) was $22 a day (as per my sister's last hospital bill)

#81 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

I know what the bills look like. You don't have to point that out. It is absurd.

How old is your sister?

Private insurers collect from many and pay for just a few. People pay for Medicare throughout their working lives.

they are willing to pay for all insureds. Medicare won't pay for me despite the fact that I pay for all.

this is a stupid argument. You can't compare (financially) medicare to a private insurer. you are inventing arguments with no merit.

I think you are arguing with me because you seem to think that I am for keeping the status quo and that I think medicare is shit.

I've said this before but here goes again, my daughter works in insurance rebilling, big insurance companies automatically deny coverage on most claims just to force hospitals to rebill them if they want to get paid. Sometimes it takes years to collect for things that are obviously covered under the policies. Pretending that for profit insurance companies are going to look out for the benefit of patients is at best naive. Health care is one thing I do not want decided by an accountant who puts profit above the welfare of the patient and we all know it happens every single day.

Any retiree can purchase private insurance.

can you name one?

I can but I want to see if you can.

Pretending that for profit insurance companies are going to look out for the benefit of patients is at best naive.
#87 | POSTED BY DANNI
-----

And pretending the Medicare model will work for nation wide healthcare is equally naive. So lets find a better solution than to just continue praising these failed systems.

big insurance companies automatically deny coverage on most claims just to force hospitals to rebill them if they want to get paid. Sometimes it takes years to collect for things that are obviously covered under the policies.

My wife and I have had 3 children. 2 required a C-Section which is a surgery.....you get it all with that. Anethesia, doctor, hospital, over night, path/lab etc.......

I have never had that problem from an insurance company. I have only had that problem with Dental insurance.

AU,

How old is your sister?

Danni,

How much does Medicare pay per patient?

Two words.... Medical Tourism

It's cheaper to get a hip replacement in Southeast Asia than it is here... it's cheaper to get an MRI in Southeast Asia than it is here...and that is including the roundtrip airfare and the hotel (if needed) and quite a few of the doctors there were trained here, so it's not even hard to get a doctor that can speak english....

I'm glad for you but my daughter works for just one company in a pretty large industry that makes its income by earning a small percentage of the bills they collect from insurance companies.
She has told me that United Health Care is one of the worst offenders.

can you name one?

Yes, but why would they? What many do, is purchase Medicare as well as medi-gap insurance to pay for what Medicare doesn't pay. Those that don't have the means rely only on Medicare.

I suspect the wealthy retired don't pay for Medicare.

Congressman Joe Knollenberg its not your money

Alert: Dow below 8000; first time since 2003 due to the Big 3 Automakers mess.

"Alert: Dow below 8000; first time since 2003 due to the Big 3 Automakers mess."

By not bailing them out they are playing with fire.

And pretending the Medicare model will work for nation wide healthcare is equally naive.

Why wouldn't Medicare be a good model for nation wide healthcare? It has very low administrative costs. There is medi-gap insurance to cover the balance of costs on a Medicare covered charge that Medicare doesn't cover. In fact, there could be an additional level of medi-gap insurance to cover the procedures that Medicare will not cover. This could be a good model for public/private participation in the medical insurance industry.

I suspect the wealthy retired don't pay for Medicare.

why not? Under what circumstances would someone who is eligible for medicare NOT take it?

You almost have to wonder if Bush and Paulson aren't purposely refusing to use some of the bailout bucks on the automakers simply to make sure the economy goes down the tube right into the lap of Obama and the Dems. Can't prove it but it would be treason, IMHO, if true.

She has told me that United Health Care is one of the worst offenders.

I'm sure that is true. They were bad before and then they purchased some really shitty smaller companies that were worse.

Regarding pensions.....

I am very pro-business. Having said that, I absolutely abhor unfunded pension liabilities. Depending on a pension factored into the decision-making-process of countless workers. Why in the fuck is it OK to dump pension liabilities but still award huge executive bonuses to top-level managers during a year of record losses (see Ford Motor Company 2007).

I certainly understand that many of these pentions are simply unsustainable in today's market. Nevertheless, promises were made and it is repugnant to renege on said promises when times get tough.

This is a rare occasion where lefties get it right. Why is it OK for a line-worker who is struggling financially to make all sorts of concessions, yet top-level executives STILL get their huge bonuses, even when their company is in the dumper? I have no problem with huge executvive-pay when a company has commensurate profit. I have a BIG problem with huge executive pay when a company is hemorrhaging cash.

The US auto-industry has fucked itself from top-to-bottom.

It's a failing business model that needs bankrputcy.

Protecting a failed business model is akin to in-breeding. The problem only intensifies over time.

Let them fail.

As a 'Michigander' my state will be affected the worst. So be it. It will suck in the short-term, but will result in long-term viability.

Danni,

Medicare.....cost....per.....p
atient.

"Keep buying new Japanese and Korean cars and trucks all you super patriot American auto industry haters."

I'm sorry, I was unaware of my patriotic obligation to buy an inferior automobile just because it is made by a union who likes to pay 80 year olds who haven't worked for GM in decades. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

Two major reasons....

1. The executives and management could not see ahead and ended up with unpopular vehicles.

2. Labor Union greedily pushed themselves into a trap --- overpaid and excessive benefits.

Time for a complete changeover.

Why wouldn't Medicare be a good model for nation wide healthcare?
#98 | POSTED BY FEDUPWITHPOLS
----------

Right now the entire working population pays to care for the very few. And the system is going broke. How do you figure it will stay afloat when it has to provide for everyone?

The only two questions Congress should be asking when considering a bailout of the American auto companies are: (1) "Will it work?" and (2) "Will we get the money back?"

Without a change in GM's business model, they will blow through the $25B we give them just like they have blown through all of their own money. The company is being rendered a non-competitor by the UAW contracts that require it to pay the mass of retirees who no longer perform services for the company. Until that changes, they should not see a dime from our government.

why not? Under what circumstances would someone who is eligible for medicare NOT take it?

It is hard to imagine anyone other than the wealthy not taking Medicare.

Also, Medicare doesn't pay for everything and, for what it pays, it will only be for a specific amount; irrespective of what the service provider charges. Additional insurance is required to cover the difference.

By not bailing them out they are playing with fire.
#97 | POSTED BY DANNI
------

Then propping up failing businesses is playing with napalm.

It is hard to imagine anyone other than the wealthy not taking Medicare.

Also, Medicare doesn't pay for everything and, for what it pays, it will only be for a specific amount; irrespective of what the service provider charges. Additional insurance is required to cover the difference.

You understand the question Fedup. Don't try to pretend you don't.

I asked who doesn't take medicare that is eligible?

You are trying to skirt away from your assertion that medicare has competition and that you can compare medicare to a private insurer fairly.

If you can't afford the difference maybe you should go to a Star Trek Convention and ask Dr. McCoy for help

IMO,
If the big 3 would cut there outragous spending on advertising, they might just be able to come out of there well deserved bankruptcy. Has anyone really looked at the testosterone filled commercials as of late?... you know the one with the "playground obsticle course"... wonder what that cost to setup and film and the cost of running it on (give or take) a dozen chanels several times a day? We all know what a what a truck can do... why do we need such advertisements? I don't feel sorry for the big 3. F-them and there stupidity and greed. Let them fail.

I do understand that letting them fail will be bad, but continueing to throw money at them is even worse. All they have done is whine about how bad it will be for American jobs if they fail. NONE have presented a real plan that would show that they could actually recover in any amount of time. Oh and yes I own and love my Chevy truck.

Americanunity, it appears you no longer wish to engage in your wingnutted partisan hackary here, and have recused yourself to a more suitable thread.

Sorry if your blind stereotype of a guy who's not down with Medicare didn't hold up for you. Maybe you should pre-judge people over on the stem cell thread. That should be like shooting zygotes in a petrie dish.

The ongoing union/management debate could easily and naturally be solved if there were no right to work laws. Texas doesn't have them. This means that if a union company goes on strike, the employer has the right to hire non-union labor. Of course, he is taking a risk because (if what the union alleges is true) non-union labor is inferior.

If this is true, he must pay higher wages for the union labor. But he can then ask for more money for his product because it will be superior.

However, if it is not true, then he can hire non-union labor and get the same quality product. This ensures that a fair salary is being paid for like labor.

RIght to work states are just as guilty as the unions for fostering artificially high wages. And now they are paying for it. Get rid of right to work laws and let the labor market function naturally.

Great point Goat.

"Auto CEOs flew private jets to seek bailout"

How do you figure it will stay afloat when it has to provide for everyone?

By allowing people to buy into Medicare (thru payroll deductions) at a rate that matches their health risk i.e. premiums for a 20 yr old would be less that the premiums for a 50 yr old. For people that buy into Medicare, the cost of the premium would approximate that of private insurance but would be less because of the lower Medicare administrative costs and for the products/services that Medicare doesn't pay for.

For many people, that would be enough to make health care premiums affordable. Also, it would allow employers to get out of the health insurance business.

Oh and yes I own and love my Chevy truck.

Bully for you!

Seriously.

GM makes fantastic trucks. You should take pride in owning one.

For people that buy into Medicare, the cost of the premium would approximate that of private insurance but would be less because of the lower Medicare administrative costs and for the products/services that Medicare doesn't pay for.

How much less?
what services won't it pay for?

For many people, that would be enough to make health care premiums affordable.

If you can answer "how much less" then perhaps you can assert that. If you can't then you have no basis.

I asked who doesn't take medicare that is eligible?

I don't know everyone that is eligible for Medicare. Everyone I know is of very modest means. However, given the millions of people that are on Medicare, I suspect that there are some that do not take Medicare.

#117 | POSTED BY FEDUPWITHPOLS
------

That's interesting but my Medicare cost is already higher that what I pay for very good health insurance. And I'm only paying for the elderly right now. How much more will it cost when I have to pay for myself as well?

"Then propping up failing businesses is playing with napalm."

How so??? The worst that could happen is we would piss away some of the money already allocated to bail out completely irresponsible bankers who will also probably find new ways to fail.
All the arguments against the bailout of the auto companies seem ridiculous after we just allocated 700 Billion to bail out the banking system who took our money and now aren't loaning it out which is what is causing the auto makers to be so desperate for funds to continue operations. Why the hell did we bail out the banks with hundreds of billions so that they can just sit on it and not loan money to save our largest manufacturing industry.

I don't know everyone that is eligible for Medicare. Everyone I know is of very modest means.

You said you could name someone who didn't take medicare that was eligible. You were lying obviously. what else did you lie about?

Okay, I will let go of the noose a bit....

Medicare is either primary or secondary for workers after 65. The size of the employer will determine whether or not medicare is primary or secondary (if you choose to purchase it).

that is for workers. For nonworkers it is absurd to assert that they wouldn't accept medicare. They can choose to purchase medicare supplements including the drug card recently introduced but that is totally their choice. Major medical medicare is going to be taken by everybody though unless otherwise by the method i just mentioned.

Medicare has no competitor. period.

good grief.

Apparently the other doctors, accountants, and economists left you.

:-(

GM makes fantastic trucks.

I'll vouch for that. I bought one in 1981. I sold it in 1993 with almost 200k miles on it. All I had to do to it during those twelve years is replace the fuel pump and the starter motor. Never had the valve covers off even.

Granted it started to leak oil there towards the end, but after that lifetime, I couldn't complain.

I now own a 2000 model. It has 136k miles. Nothing has gone wrong with it yet. It starts first time when I get home after two weeks offshore and runs as smoothly as the day I bought it.

"How much more will it cost when I have to pay for myself as well?"

Take the cost of you insurance and add it to the Medicare amount and see how much you are paying for health care. Then subtract corporate profits and unnecessary expenditures they make over the 2% administrative costs of Medicare. Then factor in the amount the insurance company will save when they deny your coverage on a technicality or the amount you will incur when you or your kid breaks a leg while you are between jobs.
This is a no brainer. For profit health care costs us more and provides us less than any of the citizens of the nations we try to compete with economically. The opposition to national health care is not based on logic but on ideology.

Why the hell did we bail out the banks with hundreds of billions so that they can just sit on it and not loan money to save our largest manufacturing industry.

Because they got in line first. The auto industry (which ought to know plenty about govt help) should have known that there would be a limit how many industries can come to DC with their hand out.

At some point, they will say "no".

"I now own a 2000 model. It has 136k miles. Nothing has gone wrong with it yet. It starts first time when I get home after two weeks offshore and runs as smoothly as the day I bought it."

AT teh Congressional hearings yesterday they mentioned the longevity of modern cars and trucks as one of the problems with the business model of the auto makers.

Then subtract corporate profits and unnecessary expenditures they make over the 2% administrative costs of Medicare.

How long are you going to skirt my question Danni?

"At some point, they will say "no"."

Hopefully not just before they cause 3 million workers to lose their jobs. If Republicans want to pass the blame for the economy off to Obama then they should not refuse this bailout because if they do and if we land in a depression even Rush Limbaugh won't be able to convince anyone that it is Obama's fault. It will be the Republican/Bush Depression of 2009. Americans have gotten less dumb these past eight years.

How so???
#122 | POSTED BY DANNI
--------

They are not viable and will not be until they restructure. That will require bankruptcy. Until that happens we are just delaying the inevitable. Kind of like we're doing with the $700 B. All bailouts are ridiculous and will come back to bite us in the ass.

"How long are you going to skirt my question Danni?"

I'm not going to do a bunch of research on that, it's not a disputable fact. Medicare treats patients for less money than does for profit health care. If you dispute that then you go do the research.

"That will require bankruptcy."

I guess we could use the Packard MOtor Co. as a guide to how successful car companies in bankruptcy are. Clue....no one will buy a car from a company in bankruptcy. This really is an attempt at union busting and everyone knows it.

How much less?
what services won't it pay for?

There is a schedule of covered procedures; probably on their site if you're interested enough to look. One of the things I have first hand experience with has to do with coverage of a wheel chair and a lift chair. Medicare would pay for the rental of a wheel chair but not if it paid for a lift chair. Apparently the reasoning was that if you had a lift chair, you could stand and if you could stand, you didn't need a wheel chair. Similarly, if you needed a wheel chair, then a lift chair was un-necessary.

There are people that can stand and move for short distances (i.e. inside their home) but can't expend the effort for trips to the food store or shopping mall with family, friends, care givers, etc. where a wheel chair would be useful. I imagine that some people, especially those with the means, would not want to be bothered with such things.

If you can answer "how much less" then perhaps you can assert that. If you can't then you have no basis.

To be more precise, I should have said
For many people, that may be enough to make health care premiums affordable.

This really is an attempt at union busting and everyone knows it.

Well, the unions busted the auto industry. I guess it's payback time.

Or do you really think that $70/hr in salary and benefits for unskilled labor is justified?

The unions are parasites. And greedy parasites usually end up killing their hosts.

"Why the hell did we bail out the banks with hundreds of billions so that they can just sit on it and not loan money to save our largest manufacturing industry."

Because the banks were able to convince Congress and America that their failure would cause a catastrophic shutdown of the entire economy, since our whole country operates on credit. The same consequences cannot be forecasted when pondering the failure of, say, GM.

Don't get me wrong Goatman, I do think the union needs to re-re-negotiate, I hear that they have to pay $105,000 in severance pay to any laid off worker. That's ridiculous and at the hearings was cited as one of the costs which is killing the industry. However, I still think a bailout package with conditions, some of which fall on the union to approve, could prevent bankruptcy which will be the end of most American car brands and possibly cause a recession to become a depression. The risk is simply too high, the bailout package should be designed by others than the CEOs or the Union executives and presented as a take-it or leave it package. IMHO.

"The same consequences cannot be forecasted when pondering the failure of, say, GM."

Neither you nor anyone else can really be sure of that. That's the problem.

My husband works for the UAW @ GM.
He earns $35.00/hr to mount tires (+ bennies).
As an expert in his craft, he has no rival.

Bankruptcy would be ruinous.
If BushCo can bail out the wealthy,
why not help the UAW?

Be Well.

#1 | Posted by skip_wellington

Skip, I am sorry to hear you going through so much stress. I went through it between 2000 and 2003 and it's not fun. In fact, I lost a great deal of my health from the stress. I am a software developer and I had thought since 1985 to 1999 that I would always have a job and never have to worry. I was wrong. I never thought that offshoring, starting in 1994, would grow to such a point that I would be competing with someone overseas.

My advice is to find a way for you husband to make himself valuable as soon as possible.

Is it fair that we are asked to re-tool our skills? No! But, I'll tell you this, I went back and took some classes in Java, Oracle, took a few tests to get minimal certificates in those technologies and then finally got a certified as a Software Developer in Microsoft technologies (even though it keeps changing). Change my life.

The Offshoring was a huge wakeup call to me. I was getting comfortable with my skills and quit learning the new stuff and had to pay for it.

Neither you nor anyone else can really be sure of that. That's the problem.

#137 | Posted by danni

They, themselves admit that $25B isn't going to solve the problem. It will just buy them time.

That's interesting but my Medicare cost is already higher that what I pay for very good health insurance. And I'm only paying for the elderly right now. How much more will it cost when I have to pay for myself as well?

It's not very expensive. My retired mother pays about $110/mo out of her SS for Medicare. Her medi-gap insurance is more and they only pay for what Medicare doesn't pay for on Medicare covered charges only. Medicare pays for 80% of the charges and medi-gap pays for 20%. In other words, Medicare charges less and pays for more. Not quite a fair statement when you consider that she paid into Medicare her entire working life.

This really is an attempt at union busting and everyone knows it.

#132 | Posted by danni

You say that like it is a bad thing.

The chart above shows average hourly compensation (additional data source here) for the Big Three ($73.20) and Toyota ($48.00), compared to average hourly compensation for Management and Professional Workers ($47.57), Manufacturing/Goods Producing ($31.59) and all workers ($28.48), data available here.

"Neither you nor anyone else can really be sure of that. That's the problem."

We can make an educated prediction. If you're willing to accept the notion that our country runs on credit, then it follows that the economy would in fact have collapsed had the banks not increased their liquidity.

With regard to GM, let's look at what would happen if they collapsed. They would file bankruptcy. Many of their 260,000 employees would lose their jobs. They would continue to operate in an extremely reduced state under a bankruptcy trustee. They would default on their pension obligations, hurting hundreds of thousands of retirees, but if allowed to re-negotiate their contracts, would still provide some sort of money to those people. In addition, the trucks and supply companies who provide materials and move their shit back and forth would all lose out on their work. However, Toyota and Honda would most likely increase US production to meet Americans' demand for cars now that GM is no longer selling as many, and those supply companies would at least find some work there.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ripples that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but to be honest, it would be bad, but not to the point of requiring the bailout of a failed business model.

Lets review the conversation

My statement was: "Any retiree can purchase private insurance". (#84)

To which you responded: "Can you name one? (#88)

To which I responded: "Yes ..." (#94)

Then you accused me of skirting the question (#110)

In #123, you accused me of lying i.e.: You said you could name someone who didn't take medicare that was eligible. You were lying obviously. what else did you lie about?

That is not what I said yes to. Review the record. I said yes to knowing someone that could purchase private insurance.

Hey...nobody bailed my ass out last thurs...same job in the same industry for 22 years....then the golden handshake...makes it hard to feel sorry for the biggies that traveled to Washington in private jets to beg for billions .

There is a schedule of covered procedures; probably on their site if you're interested enough to look. One of the things I have first hand experience with has to do with coverage of a wheel chair and a lift chair. Medicare would pay for the rental of a wheel chair but not if it paid for a lift chair. Apparently the reasoning was that if you had a lift chair, you could stand and if you could stand, you didn't need a wheel chair. Similarly, if you needed a wheel chair, then a lift chair was un-necessary.

There are people that can stand and move for short distances (i.e. inside their home) but can't expend the effort for trips to the food store or shopping mall with family, friends, care givers, etc. where a wheel chair would be useful. I imagine that some people, especially those with the means, would not want to be bothered with such things.

According to Danni, private insurance won't cover this any better than Medicare, in fact, it would be worse.

How can you say that this is worse than private carriers?

some real fucking experts on this sight I tell you!!

That is not what I said yes to. Review the record. I said yes to knowing someone that could purchase private insurance.

Nice try fedupwithmyself. You wanted me to think you understood medicare but I realized you didn't know shit 18 posts prior to that one.

You choose to argue with me over a point you knew you couldn't win after you got into it. You just wanted to argue for the hell of it I guess.

"Medicare has no competitor". You wrongly insisted that it does....it doesn't. 99% of what it pays out is not in a competitive environment. It isn't fair to compare Medicare to private insurance because it is apples and oranges (my original comment that you with you would have left alone)

Jubal -- Sorry to hear. Send me an email.

Looks like it may be the end of the big three. Is it a disaster? Nope. I say good riddance! Since the big three didn't have the good sense to run their companies right, the market should be allowed to correct for it.

GM didn't need to fail. They had a potential winner with the EV1. That car and the cars to have followed would have been the next big trend - especially when gasoline was spiking above $4/gal! Instead, the company decided to hide the technology from it's rivals. They continued to stay with the same high-margin gas guzzling models. After all, what's one more year of the same? Or two or five or ten years?

Ford also had some trendy compact car models that have been produced for years in Europe that could have been imported to US roadways. Sure, flipping the steering wheel and using metric could be challenging, but C'MON, it's not THAT difficult! Yet they acted as though this market for small quality cars didn't exist in the US! Instead they continued to pin their hopes on retired middle class guys with lots of money who still remember the boss Mustang as being the cool car of the 70's. Of course, this was a continually shrinking demographic thanks to old age and off shoring.

Then there is Chrysler. They hoped that mergers with Daimler-Benz or perhaps GM would somehow magically solve their problems with synergy. The whole move was simply a distraction and it cost them dearly.

For all three, business as usual continued the practice of being obligated not only for retired union workers but for retired executives as well. $75/hr for a union worker might seem like a lot. However, executive pay is obscene. Executive pay works out to an hourly rate per year of $500/hr for EACH million! (For some of Chrysler's former executives, their $30 million bonuses worked out to $15,000/hr - plus their regular pay too!)

Eventually, math caught up with these companies as it is catching up with the country as a whole. Stock holders are asking how these companies are being run and if their products or services are worthwhile and the stock market plunges are providing the answer.

Even if the worst happens, there is a bright side to all this. Thanks to their outsourcing efforts, most of the car parts for existing cars aren't even made by the auto companies anymore! A surprising number of parts are interchangeable with foreign cars! (eg. after insisting to the parts guy that he gave me the wrong part, I discovered that a Ford pickup truck oil gasket really DID work in a VW oil pan) So, between outsourcing, junkyards and e-bay, the American auto fleet should be able to stay on the road for years to come with or without the big three.

What were they expecting a 1000 year reich? Companies fail. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Most people don't have jobs like the UAW offers. We are struggling just to get the basics for our children. Most people can't afford these overpriced plastic and steel abominations. For certain, no one can predict how things will go when they go down. It may hardly be noticed.

What were they expecting a 1000 year reich? Companies fail. That's the way the cookie crumbles

Isn't it ironic that when the actual Third Reich and Imperial Armies - along with the countries they dwelt in - were decimated it was the U.S. who helped rebulid their manufacturing bases and economies?

The U.S. lifted their people up into good paying, living wage jobs. Germany played fair out of gratitude and NATO. Japan had no such motivation. They've already won the war for the auto, electronic, and steel industries - all while keeping their shoulders on the door against our imports and engaging in the most egregious abuses of unfair trade and product dumping for market share to get there. Now China's in on the game. We need to look out for ourselves.

Repub's prove again to completely hate America, Americans and their Families!!!

As always, if $25 Billion will Help the biggest American Companies responsible for beginning the Industrial revolution,
just like last year with HealthCare for Americans - ALL REPUBS REFUSE and FIGHT IT!!

Suddenly COCKSUCKERS have HUGE concerns with How much it "Cost"
and "How will Americans get the Money Back" ..???

But these same flaming REPUBLITARD COCKSUCKERS will keep sending
funnels of $100s of BILLIONS to IRAQ with NO GUARANTEES except that it will ALL be abused and LOOTED,
fighting againist ANY FORM of ACCOUNTABILITY, and providing ZERO VALUE to any AMERICANS!!!??????

HEY!! FUCK YOU REBULICAN CONGRESSIONAL CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!
How about helping AMERICA and the MIDDLE CLASS and just ONCE NOT FUNNELLING CASH to your RICHEST PALS!!!

TY GUNNER

I forgot about the trillion we've poured into Iraq's economy, Those of us who complained about the unnecessary Iraq War or the money we're spending there were savaged by the right as unpatriotic for doing so just months ago. A trillion and counting ....

Gunner,

You have it wrong, it is the DEMOCRATIC PARTY that is doing this.

Gunner has it right. Our national priorities have not been for the benefit of American workers. Not when we're giving tax credits to offshore jobs, move whole factories overseas, and allow tens of thousands of H-1B workers to take the jobs of Americans companies handed a pink slip to. Then the corporations - 72% - pay no U.S. taxes either.

Scam of the century.

HEY!! FUCK YOU REBULICAN CONGRESSIONAL CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!
How about helping AMERICA and the MIDDLE CLASS and just ONCE NOT FUNNELLING CASH to your RICHEST PALS!!!
#151 | Posted by gunner

Then how come the Democrats in Congress part of this?

Are you really serious? Are are you just stupid.

Gunner is a drunken moron realizing that America has been taken over and he didn't even know.

He voted Democrat and didn't realize that the Democrats are doing it too.

Gunner represents the little children who vote.

So, at risk of exposing the fact that I did not read this whole thread, I gotta ask, if the Big 3 go under, what happens to their plants, their workers, etc etc, and directly related to that, what happens to the sudden slack in the auto market?

It seems to me that at least a significant chunk, if not all, of the actual manufacturing infrastructure would head directly to a fire sale to be purchased, retooled and reopened by the Japanse, Chinese, or whoever.

I'm not naive enough to think that every auto worker in the US would get their job back on that, but I have a hard time buying the line that if these companies go, the jobs go with them. Of course, I grew up in a town that saw 3 different automakers cycle thru the local manufacturing plant before it was purchased by a company that makes small engines. It was pretty much the same people working the line over the years, just differnt management.

As for the current situation though, hey, I am all for a bail-out, as long as it comes with a nice long list of conditions..... without them, it's just throwing good money after bad.

How many times did you use the word force in this argument? If you impose tariffs on the cars that Americans can afford you'll hear crying about that and how the prices have gone up. The Government "forcing" every labor, environmentalist, anti-business agenda is responsible for this mess. $25 B is a bandaid on a severed arm. Waste of time & money. But hey, it's government it's what they do and we continue to let them.

Unions did this, and greedy auto workers. as well as the mgt, but more of the blame is having to fork over untold millions to union wages and concessions for shitty workers and an over priced product that failed to keep pace with the times.

let them go under, all of them.

My rants this morning seem to be working, just heard on the radio that now a bi-partisan group of Congressmen is putting together a compromise bailout package and George Bush is reconsidering his threat to veto extending unemployment benefits.
Rcade should be proud this blog seems to reach to some very high places.
The crisis may be averted, y'all are welcome.

Also heard the head of Honda in America saying that the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS is a huge problem for all auto makers, not just American auto makers.

Sure, nothing to do with the big 3 putting out shitty gas guzzlers, recalled defective models and parts, billions in corporate perks, etc etc. Blame it all on the workers.

Can't wait to see GM and others go bankrupt because of their support for those ridiculous UAW union contracts. Thousands of employees being paid huge amounts of money to not work. GM pays an average of $75/hr for an employee and Toyota pays $45/hr. Toyota makes the superior car and sell cars that consumers want. Unions are killing America. A bailout is only a temporary bandaid on a massive gunshot wound.

Files bankruptcy. Dump the unions and start competing on an international stage again. It's the only way.

"In September of 2007, however, General Motors and United Auto Workers (UAW) union reached a monumental agreement that will allow GM to shift $51 billion in healthcare liabilities to the UAW. The deal impacts 74,000 of GM's workers and will also allow GM to replace some of its $70/hour employees with far cheaper employees. This signals an essential shift in the cost structure for GM, and now Ford Motor Company (F) and Chrysler, which will allow these US auto manufacturers to better compete with rising Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor Company (HMC). When Japanese automakers first entered the US market their cars required about half as many labor hours to build as their american competitors. By 2008 this gap had essentially closed as Toyota required on average 30.37 hours per vehicle, while GM averaged 32.29.[2]"

Blame it all on the workers.

#162 | Posted by revjack23
Or non workers:

To all the idiots that attack the messenger always ( like your fat messiah limpbong learned ya's)
and direct insults at me instead of your criminal drunken republitard gang leaders;
you have again proven to be ditto-brainfucked to believe the opposite of reality!

Can't you fucking read or even think without "Rush" jesus pills bellowing it at you in a pretend-to-be-authoritative-
while-having-zero-actual-
experience fake voice..???

DEMS SPONSERED the BILL and WANT TO HELP OUR AUTO COMPANIES that were DEVASTATED by REPUB LED GOVT CROOKS for 8 YEARS!

Beyond that Rant,

There also is a huge problem with Unions perhaps going too far in protecting jobs with rewards?

Now the big 3 have retiree medical fee costs in the annual $10s of billions.

Workers who dont have to "worry" about performing?
Well, guess what. They dont perform!

There needs to be a compromise and plan to improve.
Good pay for good work, add consistent value or become liabilities and get cut
- that is how to promote productivity and progress!

I think we're asking the wrong question.

It's not a question of whether or not they SHOULD be helped.

It's a question of whether or not they CAN be helped?

Sure they can. Shitcan the idiots, appoint genius bored businessmen as new management, make deals with the foreign automakers who are doing well in the US, trim the fat - starting with corporate perks and bonuses and ending with the workers getting realistically renegotiated contracts while at the same time fostering an economy where their spending power is not drastically reduced, and put some caps on what Unions can ask for, nationally. They have grown too big for the britches, all the good they have done aside.

Force on them, at the very least, the fuel efficiency standards Al Gore wrote for them back when he was VP, if not even more stringent, and start putting some pressure on them to spend less money on overstimulating ad campaigns and more money on greening their product and production methods, which will sell them far more cars than yet another thousand billboards. Energy independence should also play a prominent role in design.

And most importantly, it's not a bailout, it's a loan, with a realistic return rate but also a realistic return timeframe.

That should help.

I'm of the opinion let them go down in bankruptcy. First off, they benefited from NAFTA so they laid off workers to open a plant in Canada or Mexico. The UAW had a legitamit role in the early days of the industry. Now they've been blood sucking leaches greedily outliving their purpose. $35 an hour to change tires is absurd. Ask the guy at walmart if he's getting $35 an hour.

The CEO's job is to determine market demands. They gambled the wrong way. Should we bail out people who lost a lot of money in Las Vegas too? If Sears is in trouble should we bail them out too? We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. If we finance the big 3 then we should finance everyone who is having problems around the US. It's a slippery slope once you take the first step.

First thing I'd do is fire the current CEO. Secondly, I'd lower the CEO's salary down to 150,000. To encourage hard work and smart decisions I'd give the CEO a percentage of profits at the end of the year. If he/she didn't have any profits then they would not get any. I'd eliminate the UAW. The UAW is the anchor that's sinking the company. That way GM could compete with non-union companies like Toyota. I'd also re-evaluate everyone in the company's salary and make adjustments. This is exactly what would happen if someone else bought the big 3. They'd go through and strip away all of the fat.

A bail out is rewarding the CEO's that poorly managed their company's assets. There is something inherently wrong with doing this for them when we let K-Mart go down in the toilet. We didn't help K-Mart and they came out of bankruptcy to buy a portion of Sears.

Lonnie

What's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $24 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.