On TV now a congressman from North Carolina is grilling the auto concerns about how many "American" cars are assembled and built overseas.

auto execs concerning

My favorite story not here is that all three auto company presidents travelled to Washington for the hearings in private luxury jets, of which each car company has several.

Did they ask them how they could fly in on private jets, and not commercial?

They declined to comment, I believe, when asked.

They declined to comment, I believe, when asked.

#6 | Posted by sitdown

I'll bet they're also running up a hell of a Bar/Dinner tab while in town.

They should fly commercial, but not business or first class, just coach will do.

Awesome shirt, and even better comments:

One of them should have provided his personal car to car pool all the way to DC. Forget flying.

I don't have the ability to watch these hearings. Is anyone asking the auto execs why their companies are out of cash and what they plan to do about it to ensure that the money they are asking for isn't pissed away like every other cent they've ever had?

These executives are so far into the "Fat Cat" thing that they have a special assistant to sign the card receipts for them. There is also another to flush their toilets. God forbid they should do the tasks of menials.

Sweet site:

Is Bush involved with this or is Dirty Harry hosting the party?

Is anyone asking the auto execs why their companies are out of cash and what they plan to do about it to ensure that the money they are asking for isn't pissed away like every other cent they've ever had?

I was watching the news this morning. This was being discussed. They also asked why the Japanese car makers in the US are not in such dire straits.

One reason is that the averag US automaker gets $72/hr in salary and benefits. The Japanese automakers get about $38. Why the big difference?

Thank you, unions.

It's hard to believe that someone gets over $70/hr (over $140k/yr) for screwing in the same bolt on an assembly line very day. If the auto industry is to be saved with my tax $$$, I want some concessions from the workers. They are grossly overpaid.

It's hard to believe that someone gets over $70/hr (over $140k/yr) for screwing in the same bolt on an assembly line very day. If the auto industry is to be saved with my tax $$$, I want some concessions from the workers. They are grossly overpaid.

#16 | Posted by goatman

Alot of doctors and lawyers don't make that much.

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008

Is Bush involved with this or is Dirty Harry hosting the party?

#15 | Posted by wisgod

The rule here at the DR is: If it's bad, then Bush is involved.

"It's hard to believe someone gets over $70/hr (over $140k/yr) for screwing in the same bolt."

If you had to screw in the same bolt daily, Goat, you'd deem yourself underpaid too. As would Mrs. Goat. Seriously, though, I think we've reached the pinnacle of right wing absurdity when we bad-mouth auto workers making a decent living and NOT the CEOs who gad about in private jets. herm

"I think we've reached the pinnacle of right wing absurdity when we bad-mouth auto workers making a decent living and NOT the CEOs who gad about in private jets"

How about we blame both of them? By the way, American autoworkers make more than "a decent living," as is shown by the fact that their legacy costs render them uncompetitive in today's marketplace. Companies that provide health insurance to people who don't even work for them anymore won't last very long. Whether it's the auto company's fault or not for signing such stupid contracts, the fact is that it is an unsustainable business model that should not be temporarily propped up by the taxpayers so GM can fart through another $30B.

Companies that provide health insurance to people who don't even work for them anymore won't last very long.

I think there are plenty of people with only a high school education who would be willing to work the rest of their lives for half what the GM workers take in yearly in order to secure health insurance after retirement. My dad worked for Con Ed for 35 years... the insurance after retirement was always seen as a compromise for lower salary while he was working. And he did alot more than just screw in a bolt on an assembly line.

Seriously, though, I think we've reached the pinnacle of right wing absurdity when we bad-mouth auto workers making a decent living and NOT the CEOs who gad about in private jets. herm

It takes more skill to mow and trim a fucking yard. They're all greedy.

Something else that really pisses me off about the auto industry is that the UAW workers have to be "bouth off" when laid off. Give me a break! In the real world when people are laid off they are not given $100K or invited to sit around at a jobs bank, no, they are told sorry but your position has been eliminated, sigh here, good luck.

We can all agree that golden parachutes for executives are bad. What about golden parachutes for UAW workers? Why should they get anything when being laid off.

GOAT

Look at how well you're paid for 'working' two weeks a month and mostly kicking back when you are on the rig.

Autoworkers don't bring home "$70 an hour". I know. I grew up in Detroit. Blame goes to the health care industry for the astronomical rise in costs - every year much greater than the rate of inflation.

My dad was a UAW member. We had what we needed and a little of what we wanted. His retirement was just enough for my mom to live on. Like others, we weren't rolling in dough when I was growing up. His entire bill for a back operation and 10 days in the hospital cost $2000 in 1964 - slightly more than a Chevy did then. Adjusted for inflation, today's cost would equal a Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud with all the trimmings.

Management are the ones who should shoulder the blame. They made the calls on what workers would manufacture. They pocketed multi million dollar paydays while their companies lost money. The vice chairman of GM owns 4 jets.

Most autoworkers net pay averages the proper ratio of mortgage payment to income. What's so wrong with people making a living wage?

I can't think of another line of work that gives more money to people who do not work for them than the american auto companies. Eventually such a system collapses, especially when you have 4-6X as many retirees as you do active workers. To prop up such a system with taxpayer dollars when no bank would loan money to such a stupid business model is absurd.

Every attorney thinks he's worth $600 an hour too.

Name one that makes less than $100 an hour for billing purposes.

Talk about overpaid workers in America ....

Joe, what is happening now with GM, might eventually bankrupt America in a few decades, or sooner. There trillions of dollars of SS and Medicare liabilities on the books. I wonder how the hell they will be paid.

(You do have your clock stopped, don't you? Attorneys are the best at manufacturing 16 hour days in 10 minute increments from 4 hours of actual work than anyone I've ever known)

I think we've reached the pinnacle of right wing absurdity when we bad-mouth auto workers making a decent living and NOT the CEOs who gad about in private jets. herm

Did I say anything about the execs not being overpaid? No, I did not.

BTW, the CEOs make a small fraction of what the grunt workers make collectively. DOn't get me wrong; I'm not justifying it, just letting the truth be known.

WIth 335,000 employees making $140,000/yr, that is 47 billion in salaries. The CEO of GM's salary and compensation for 2007 was 15.7 million, or roughtly 1/3000th the total compensations.

"Attorneys are the best at manufacturing 16 hour days in 10 minute increments from 4 hours of actual work than anyone I've ever known)

#30 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY "

Another "expert" on nothing.

I can't think of another line of work that gives more money to people who do not work for them than the american auto companies

Lawyers

My lawyer called me from the Caribbean to apologize for not finishing a contract that resulted in lost money for me. He then billed me for the phone call.

"Every attorney thinks he's worth $600 an hour too. Name one that makes less than $100 an hour for billing purposes."

Which is it? $600 or $100? Attorney charge what people are willing to pay them, just like the auto workers. The difference is that we haven't bled an entire American industry dry to the point where they are begging the government for money.

Isn't your guy Obama a Lawyer? Are you saying he was dishonest in his billing and that he was lazy?

"My lawyer called me from the Caribbean to apologize for not finishing a contract that resulted in lost money for me. He then billed me for the phone call."

Your attorney sounds like a shithead. Surprisingly, you still call him "your attorney" which might mean you didn't fire him.

One reason is that the averag US automaker gets $72/hr in salary and benefits

The average labor cost for a Big Three made auto is 7% of the cost. If the UAW built cars for free, the Right would still be whining about the plants' utility costs not being paid by the workers. Chrysler's execs decided to sell Crossfires at a $10,000 per unit loss, just to have a car in that market segment. Union's Fault (TM).

LETUSPREY

I deal with lawyers all the time in my line of work.

Every 30 second phone call magically turns into 6 minutes - 12 if they feel like it, or their kid's tuition is coming due.

BTW, I told the attorney who billed me for calling me to apologize he could shove his bill up his ass.

AU-

You could always skip the phone calls and either find a new lawyer, or learn the law yourself. Good luck.

If the UAW built cars for free, the Right would still be whining about the plants' utility costs not being paid by the workers.
Posted by northguy3

I'm sure Honda and Toyota have no utility costs. Another swing and a miss from a Lefty Executive wannabe.

Your attorney sounds like a shithead. Surprisingly, you still call him "your attorney" which might mean you didn't fire him.

#37 | Posted by JOE

That was the last time I spoke to the dishonest asshole. I have a more honest attorney when it comes to billing, yet those 30 second calls still magically turn into 6 minutes when the bill comes. They're all the same.

I've started negotiating flat fees for some contractual matters where we've already done one just like it albeit a few changes in detail or names.

You guys are crazy if you think attorneys are expensive. I went from lawfirm world to accounting firm world and my billing rate increased almost 6 fold.

Honda, Toyota, and Nissan all dumped cars at a loss in America for years to gain market share. You wouldn't believe what they charged in Japan for the same car at that time. Outrageous prices.

Management at the Big Three focused on larger, more profitable units as their share sunk. With all the compacts flooding the market from Japan they couldn't beat the price of a car being sold at a loss in any case.

"Name one that makes less than $100 an hour for billing purposes."

Which reminds me of the story of the attorney who dies of a heart attack. He meets St. Peter at the pearly gates and, being a lawyer, starts to argue with him:

Attorney: I am not supposed to be dead. I am only 57 years old.

St. Peter: We don't make mistakes here.

Attorney: No, you see, I am only 57 years old. I'm not supposed to be dead this young.

St. Peter: As I said, we don't make mistakes here.

Attorney: But I told you. I AM ONLY 57 YEARS OLD AND I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD!

St. Peter: Okay, okay, I'll go check.

St. Peter goes and checks the Book of Life and returns to the attorney.

St. Peter: So, you say you're only 57 years old?

Attorney: That's right. I'm only 57 years old.

St. Peter: Well, according to your billing records you're 82.

Spot on joke, Hans!

God calls up Satan one day:

"Hey, Satan, the wall between Hell and Heaven is being damaged by all your people trying to get over here into Heaven. You owe me the money to repair it."

"I'm not paying you, God", said Satan

"I'll sue you then", says God

"Go right ahead", sneers Satan. "Where are you get an attorney?"

What a crock of bullshit the UAW workers are over paid along with the fat cat assholes jet setting around in private leer jets begging for taxpayer money. My out of pocket health care costs went up four fold this year alone and I am supposed to be patriotic and give more tax money to some whiney cry baby asshole screwing in the same bolt on an assembly line BULLSHIT !!! I hope the big three fall flat on their big fat asses they beg for money from their private jets that comes out of my pocket and my health care benefits would be laughed at by the UAW.

TAXMAN

I don't have a beef with attorneys who are paid an annual salary yet who's firms bill 6 minutes for every 20 second phone call....and then some if you don't keep an eye on 'em.

And he did alot more than just screw in a bolt on an assembly line.

#22 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

what else did he screw?

:-(

what else did he screw?
:-(

#50 | Posted by eberly

lol... jerk.:)

Well, I guess AU's limited experience with a few lawyers in whatever field he decides to claim to work in today can be generalized to all lawyers in the world, ever. What a whiner.

And not that I'm familiar with this, but chances are that if your lawyer tried to overbill you, he thinks you're stupid. And just because you caught him doesn't mean he was wrong.

That was the last time I spoke to the dishonest asshole. I have a more honest attorney when it comes to billing, yet those 30 second calls still magically turn into 6 minutes when the bill comes. They're all the same.

In "The Firm", Tom Cruise takes down his law firm for doing that....isn't that mail fraud?

:-(

The average labor cost for a Big Three made auto is 7% of the cost.

More like 25%

$192 billion revenue / ($70/HR * 2,000 hours/year * 335,000 employees)

EBERLY

I couldn't tell ya. I will say I've never seen a charge for less than 6 minutes in many years of billing from attorneys negotiating contracts - unless it was marked "gratis" as the one I use now will do often to balance it all out. It took me 10 years to find someone who was not only an excellent lawyer but honest as well with billing.

He did an identical complete sync license negotiation for $350 the previous guy charged me over $1000 for. I saw his bill and said, "THIS is my guy". I appreciated his honesty as well as attention to minute detail.

When word got out about some of the stuff I've been doing the last couple of years the old attorney called me up to invite me out to lunch - schmoozing all the way. I told him he was lucky I didn't take up his neglect in our previous negotiation with the board. Imagine a guy billing you for a call to tell you he f'd up.

The average labor cost for a Big Three made auto is 7% of the cost. If the UAW built cars for free, the Right would still be whining about the plants' utility costs not being paid by the workers. Chrysler's execs decided to sell Crossfires at a $10,000 per unit loss, just to have a car in that market segment. Union's Fault (TM).

IOW, northguy, you don't have a problem with your tax dollars bailing out a company where an unskilled laborer makes $70/hr, or 4 x what a teacher makes, or the same as a lot of doctors.

Incredible. Is it just sheer generousity or a blind allegiance to the union workers that forms this opinion?

JOE

Many lawyers and doctors think everyone is stupid but them. It has nothing to do with the client or patient. Sorry, lawyers as a whole have a bad name for good reasons.

I will say I've never seen a charge for less than 6 minutes in many years of billing from attorneys negotiating contracts

Well, it just means he has a 6 minute minimum on all billable calls.

Start emailing him. or better yet, start texting.

:-(

FF joe.

JOE

I've saved myself countless headaches with lawyers by being well read myself in the ins and outs of law and contracts regarding my field. No telling the shellacking I might have taken if I'd gone in there like I fell off a turnip truck.

I've never hesitated to dispute billed hours if their log is at odds with mine, or if they've billed more hours than I know it should have taken. I learned a long time ago to keep track.

The guy who billed me for calling from vacation to apologize for neglect at my expense (and billed me for the call) was way too blatant a bloodsucker, but I'd never used him before and he was rumored to be especially good at that kind of contract. I will never be his client again, and I mention his ways every time his name comes up in conversations with associates.

Start emailing him. or better yet, start texting.

:-(

#59 | Posted by eberly

Time is time in that world, and can be very arbitrary.

Like I said, lawyers have a bad name for good reasons...not to say there aren't some good apples in the bunch.

Good article.

Oppps...I see Rcade posted this article.Go read it.

To my good friends on both sides of the aisle, be very carefull when buying gift cards this holiday season from the following :
Circuit City (filed Chapter 11)
Ann Taylor- 117 stores nationwide closing
Lane Bryant, Fashion Bug ,and Catherine's to close 150 stores nationwide
Eddie Bauer to close stores 27 stores and more after January
Cache will clo se all stores
Talbot's closing down specialty stores
J. Jill closing all stores (owned by Talbots)
Pacific Sunwear (also owned by Talbots)
GAP closing 85 stores
Footlocker closing 140 stores more to close after January
Wickes Furniture closing down
Levitz closing down remaining stores
Bombay closing remaining stores
Zale's closing down 82 stores and 105 after January
Whitehall closing all stores
Piercing Pagoda closing all stores
Disney closing 98 stores and will close more after January.
Home Depot closing 15 stores 1 in NJ ( New Brunswick )
Macy's to close 9 stores after January
Linens and Things closing all stores
Movie Gallery Closing all stores
Pep Boys Closing 33 stores
Sprint/Nextel closing 133 stores
JC Penney closing a number of stores after January
Ethan Allen closing down 12 stores.
Wilson Leather closing down all stores
Sharper Image closing down all stores
K B Toys closing 356 stores
Lowe's to close down some stores
Dillard's to close some stores

Piercing Pagoda closing ALL stores? OH GOD, NO!!!

Also Lane Bryant. Liz Edwards is screwed.

Nancy Pelosi wants to put a Windfall Tax on all stock market profits (including Retirement fund, 401K and Mutual Funds!

" We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income, (didn't Marx say something l ike this), in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest.' ( I am not rich, are you?)

'We need to raise the standard of living of our poor, unemployed and minorities. For example, we have an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in our country who need our help along with millions of unemployed minorities. Stock market windfall profits taxes could go a long way to guarantee these people the standard of living they would like to have as 'Americans'.'

So.. You get lower income on your retirement to give it to some schmuck that snuck over the boarder with little or no education. Basically take your money and then give it to someone who did not work for it.

There you go - real change...CHANGE is all you are going to have left in your POCKETS when this group is done.

Hope you enjoy what you voted for!

Incredible. Is it just sheer generousity or a blind allegiance to the union workers that forms this opinion?
Goat-The Big Three hire more university grads than anybody outside a profession. They want people who are educated and flexible.
The auto industry keeps 4+ million people working in the US, directly and indirectly. Glad to see you'd like them all on welfare.

I just love how the Right's blind hatred of Unions puts them in bed with protectionist nations like South Korea and Japan, as well as China, which keeps its yuan ridiculously undervalued to protect its export business.

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor (And Remember, you guys told us unlicensed plumbers in Ohio make $250,000/year). Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers' wages. (And Remember, you guys told us unlicensed plumbers in Ohio make 250,000).

he total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers' plants.

This represents 8.4 percent of the typical $28,4513 price of a new vehicle in 2006. The vast majority of the costs of producing a vehicle and transporting it to a dealership and preparing it for sale including design, engineering, marketing, raw materials, executive compensation and other costs are not related to direct or indirect manufacturing labor.

Goat-The Big Three hire more university grads than anybody outside a profession. They want people who are educated and flexible.

You never answered my question. I'll ask it again, and modify it to include your missive.

Do you think paying someone $70 in wages and benefits to do grunt labor on an assembly line is justifiable? Do you think it fits into a real world economic model?

Does a college grad screw in that bolt any better than the HS grad?

And Remember, you guys

???

Who are "you guys"?

"CEOs make a small fraction of what the grunt workers make collectively."

Cheez, I surely would hope so. Three CEOs. A million workers.

Can I justify paying $70 in wages and benefits for grunt labor on an assembly line?

I'll complain when CEOs stop making $7,000 an hour, physicians don't get a thou per hour, attorneys bill under $600 an hour, even therapists don't get $200 for an hour of hearing you gripe that your wife doesn't understand you.

Anyway, YOU tell me: How to you screw in a bolt? herm

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor.

On average, active union members cost automakers $130,000 a year,

Anyway, YOU tell me: How to you screw in a bolt? herm

Clockwise

Clockwise

Posted by goatman at 2008-11-19 05:28 PM | Reply

Some of Your older Chryslers had left hand threaded lug nuts.

Larry

Anyway, YOU tell me: How to you screw in a bolt? herm

#73 | Posted by herm

Very slowly. -The Uaw

Some of Your older Chryslers had left hand threaded lug nuts

Those I would do counterclockwise

Those I would do counterclockwise

Posted by goatman at 2008-11-19 05:40 PM | Reply

No shit sherlock

Want to buy a left handed crescent wrench?

Want to buy a left handed crescent wrench?

Posted by STIRSUMUP at 2008-11-19 05:42 PM | Reply

Few Years back I seen a left handed Cresent wrench. It was erogonomically designed to fit the left hand. I thought it was plumb crazy but hey if it sells so be it. Oh and they make right and left handed tools as well. Something I find goofy but hey what the hay.

Larry

Want to buy a left handed crescent wrench?

Metric or English?

I also have a new line of left handed hammers and both solid and stranded wire stretchers.

Left Handed Hammer

800 Boeing Wichita Employees will be laid off. Unbelievable

Well, I guess AU's limited experience with a few lawyers in whatever field he decides to claim to work in today can be generalized to all lawyers in the world, ever. What a whiner.

#52 | Posted by JOE

Limited experience? Ha ha ha

I've spent more on lawyers in the last 10 years than you'll make this year by a mile.

"..in whatever field he decides to claim to work in today..."

Wanna make a substantial bet? There are posters here I know who know people in the industry I've worked in and have worked with many, many years. All of us have been in the same room at the same time. Here's the bet. If you're proven wrong you leave and never return. How's that? You won't take the bet, snark. You're too much of an coward.

Whiner? That would be you. Pulling shit out of your ass. Wow. What an accomplishment. Baboons can do that too.

Here's a question I posted on the Left 4 Dead forums.

You don't even have to have PLAYED the game to give a correct answer (or some smartass hilarious ones, lol)

Here's a pop quiz for all those who like to pass along little known tactics:

I am down and being mobbed by zombies, do you A) Fire a shotgun wildly at the herd, and me, B) Take careful aim and get head and body shots, periodically using melee to knock them off me so I can help you shoot or C) Throw a molotov cocktail on my chest?

C. Allow a small chunk to be taken from your flesh and then assume command of the zombie army.

That's option Q, Rex. I just got tired of typing after C.

There is no other option.

Assert control over the herd, and BE the General.

You'd be shocked that 10-ish idiots ingame actually chose A (finishing me off for the zombies on two occasions) and twice chose option C.

Seriously. Throwing a molotov cocktail on me? That sets me on fire, thus finishing me off faster, and prevents anyone from being able to help me, as you can't help someone up when you're burning. At first I thought dropping a pipebomb on my chest would have been worse; but at least that would have been over in less then 90 seconds of burning and calling everyone idiots.

May as well extract a toll on the destroyers.

Death only lasts so long.