Initially a supporter of the bail out of the auto industry, I now think that bankruptcy wouldn't be so bad. It would FORCE American auto makers (management and labor) to make the kind of decisions that are necessary for them to survive. Once a reorganization plan was put in place, finding the proper financing to continue operations would be a lot easier; even if it means getting financing from tax payers.

In fact, I'm beginning to think that the only time the American tax payer should consider providing a bail out is AFTER a company has entered bankruptcy and has filed a realistic plan for emergence. If the reorganization plan is good enough, private money may be attracted as well.

You ever think that the employees of these companies ever make a connection between bankruptcy and obnoxiously high wages for putting the same 5 screws into the same 5 spots?

Can someone tell me where the Union's will be when the autoworkers they've been "fighting for" should GM or any other automaker file for bankruptcy?

There is enough blame to go around, but the Unions have to step up and acknowledge their role in this. When Toyota has $200 in health care and retirement costs in a car and GM has $2,000 that is a big deal.

Many have said, "Well Toyota makes a better car", well of course it does, it has $1,800 more to work with for each car produced. Think of all the inovation and niceties (sp?) that buys for every car.

Certainly GM, etc. have been missmanaged. But it is interesting to note that GM and Ford both do well overseas. I was amazed at the number of Chevys I saw in China and Fords in Brazil. I cannot now find the link, but I was reading the other day how over-seas, they are making money. It is their domestic business that is killing them.

What is the difference? Labor costs... Now I am not advocating that we pay these people $8 a day or anything like that. But it has to become more reasonable.

The unions say, well we gave a lot away in the 2007 negotiations. Yea, but my understanding is that was for new workers. The old workers still have many of the old perks.

If I remember right one of the things they negotiated, was some sort of lump-sum payment to the Unions and then they would manage their own retirement funds. Taking this burden off of the car companies.

Maybe one way they could structure the bailout would be to *first* insist on changes in management, etc. Second, we (the gov) could fund the retirement funds. There would have to of course be some restructuring, but that would take this burden away from the auto companies and allow them to compete on a more level surface.

Any thoughts?

You know we could take this one step further.

We (the gov) could also take over the health plan for the Autos... We could let the Dems run it for a while and see how it works out. If it turns out to be a good thing, then lets begin adopting it nation wide. If not, well then we do something else. But this gives us a really good place to try out government medicine. The Unions should be all for it as they voted for Obama and that is what he preached. It is a win-win.

"Second, we (the gov) could fund the retirement funds."

So those of us who don't have a pension should pay the pensions for those who do???
Sorry, I don't feel that generous.
The health care idea though would be workable and would, like you say, be a good opportunity to see how it works.
I'm pretty liberal but I do think that union members should have to face the consequences of their actions.

Danni, I can go with you on the pension thing. I guess where I was coming from is that it appears that we (the gov) is hell-bent on giving the Autos some big bucks. By most accounts $25M.

In my mind (being older...) I would just as soon see it fund retierment benefits as giving it to some company with execs who would use it to amoung other things give themselves a large bonus.

If we did take over the pension fund, I *would* be for restructuring the pension.

I grew up in Lansing MI where for many years Oldsmobile ruled. These guys had 30 and out. They worked until they were 48 and retired. Cripe, I am looking at working until 65 and that is only if the stock market recovers and my 401k begins to have some value.

Ha, on that note. I was one of the people who wanted to privatize Social Security. While I still believe it could work if you limited the risk people could take with that money. I am not beating that drum any more. We still have to do soemthing about Social Security, but moving it to the stock market is not the right answer.

Germany, Japan and Sweden manage to make great cars that people want while co-operating with their strong unions. Not having to pay health care costs helps as does the fact that their home countries don't have a ratio in the hundreds to one between what their employees earn and what their execs earn. Oh, and not electing Bush and Palin Republicans with insane tax and spend and foreign policies helps too.

Second, we (the gov) could fund the retirement funds.

If they are not able to successfully emerge from bankruptcy, we (the gov) will automatically be taking over their pension liability via the Pension Benefit Guarantee Trust.

Our auto industry is another example of how our trade policies have hurt our companies. We are importing cars from countries that have been successful in limiting the import of American cars i.e. South Korea, Japan to name a few. It is time to level the playing field for ALL products. We should put up the same trade restrictions that our partners do. It absolutely astounds me that we don't!

Also, if the car companies are making so much money overseas, are they pumping it back into their operations here in the US? If not, why not?

Auto Cos suffer you suffer =

A sorry, last ditch attempt to sway public opinion.

Have fun in Chapter 11 douchebags.

I am no expert on the big 3, and there are no easy answers. A bridge loan, good enough to help for a few months is the most which might get passed right now.

There are a myriad of problems with detroit's operations, and whether they go bust or not, America is probably already on the hooh for their pensions. It's called the PBGC....."PBGC takes responsibility for paying benefits to current and future retirees when a pension plan runs out of money, when a company liquidates and has an underfunded plan, when PBGC must end a plan to protect participants and the insurance fund, or when a sponsoring company demonstrates it cannot continue funding a pension plan and stay in business."

Ohh nad danni we are also on the hook right now for every federal, state, and local government workers pension. It's the largest unfunded liability that no one talks about.....

Option 1 is to let them go bankrupt.

Option 2 is to bail them out, but fire the top people.

Option 3 is what we'll get: Bailout with no change.

Modest proposal time:

Market cap of Ford and GM together, $4.7 billion at the close today.

UAW and CAW together have 750,000 active members, lots more retirees. Some work for Chrysler, Caterpillar, etc. But, we're in the ballpark.

For $6300 a member, the UAW could buy GM and Ford out, every share. Run it as a workers co-op. Only UAW and retired can own shares and receive dividends.

God I hope not Wagoneer has GOT to go.

Problem is 4.7 billion won't even pay one years interest on their debt service

let the threats begin...and wagoneer?

LAWNCHAIR

I like your idea. Employee ownership has worked in a number of instances. One that comes to mind is UAL - parent company of United Airlines.

Management in all too many companies have only their own self interest in mind. Not that of shareholders, employees, or America.

Option 3 is what we'll get: Bailout with no change.

#13 | Posted by Alexandrite

Yes--door number 3..

And we are screwed again, still, ongoing, more, already....

If any of the Big 3 files for Chapter 11, the first thing that they are going to do is to ask the BK Court to void the union contracts, which the court will likely do. That leaves the UAW with no leverage whatsoever, which would be a disaster for their members. However, the UAW more then shares the blame with management for the current woes of the US auto industry.

The benefit for the Big 3 would be the ability to submit a reorg plan that mimics what Toyota, Nissan and Honda offer their workers...about $35/hr or the most senior employees, basic health plans and 401k's.

$72K a year isn't chump change for building cars, and would immediately eliminate the $2000 per car cost advantage that the Japanese and the Germans currently have.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

4 Toyota's and 1 Chevy Silverado in my driveway. Fuckem, the Siverado doesn't run anyway when its 20 degrees or less.

I was for a bail-out, but bush pushing for it has made me pause and reconsider.

eliminate the $2000 per car cost advantage that the Japanese and the Germans currently have. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

How about designing autos that last and get good mileage? Quality is one the major reasons for not buying from the Little Three.

They lost a lot of ground to the Japanese by lobbying Congress instead of building cars with better mileage and safety standards. This isn't the fault of the people putting the autos together. It's a lack of leadership and focus, and that's the role of the executive class.

Lawnchair and AU-

The UAL example is a good one, in that a TBTF company went into Chapter 11, broke its union contracts, renegotiated new ones, offered current and retired employees stock in exchange for defined benefits that were dragging them down, got competitive and emerged as a very strong business.

No reason GM, Ford and Chrysler couldn't do the same thing. Right now, however, they are appearing in front of Congress, hat in hand, because they have a duty to their shareholders to ask for the assistence. After Congress tells them to go away, then it will be a game of chicken to see who has to file BK first. My guess is GM, and if that is the case, then Ford and Chrysler may be able to use that as leverage to get the UAW to make similar concessions without having another automaker go BK.

MURPHY

You're way too sheltered from life in real America.

Suppose we talk about shutting down the Naval yards, ports, surfboard makers, and tourism in San Diego?

You'd sing an entirely different tune.

But, hubby keeps you insulated from the realities of real life. Not your fault, but you really don't know anything about all the areas of America where the auto industry IS the lifeblood of communities.

Just today GM announced the closing of it's Dayton, OH operations. That followed the loss of thousands of DHL jobs, and a couple million manufacturing jobs that went "POOF!" to China the last 8 years while W screwed around doing a poor job of acting like a President. The right wing has no more credibility on anything but easily disproved rhetoric

Maybe they should just become franchises and make spare parts for auto companies that are succeeding instead of creating whole cars and trucks themselves. Innovate on a smaller level.

I was for a bail-out, but bush pushing for it has made me pause and reconsider.

#22 | Posted by Alexandrite

I've heard he's all for Socialized Health Care.

The Kia plant in Alabama is doing fine. Thank you.

The Kia plant in Alabama is doing fine. Thank you.

#28 | Posted by LeeAtwater

Is that one of those stone things you water, and they grow?

Labor costs... Now I am not advocating that we pay these people $8 a day or anything like that. But it has to become more reasonable.

Labor costs are about 7-8% of the cost of a Big Three car.

If the Big Three want to compete, the government has to introduce non-tariff barriers to keep the Japanese cars out, as the Japanese do to American manufacturers. Then they need to devalue the dollar to make Chinese costs uncompetitive, as the Chinese do with the yuan to undercut American products.

AND ROC-UAW rates are about 26/hr plus bennies for assembly line work. Contraty to the Rightwingspinners, the Japanese keep rates competitive with union shops, to keep the unions out.

How about designing autos that last and get good mileage? Quality is one the major reasons for not buying from the Little Three.

$2000 * 3.8M at GM alone puts $7.6B back into the company, and if they put just 5% of that back into R&D (the average R&D intensity of most automakers is 4.8%) GM would have an additional $380M to research technology for better mileage, etc. Taking 45% of that sum and putting it into better materials to improve quality would result in $3.42B in additional purchases down the supply chain, which would bootstrap the component sector as well. That leaves $3.8B for GM to develop new cars, bolster its dealer network or shore up the bottom line.

Both Toyota and Nissan expect to break even this year due to the slump, but the reason their cars are better is that they can put more money into the product cycle then the Big 3.

they can put more money into the product cycle then the Big 3.

GM has focused more on their financial business than their manufacturing business. Well now with the credit crunch they are in trouble. Maybe they could use a new BoD and executive suite.

Labor and unions are an excuse, not the reason they are failing.

The big three are there own worst enemies. Let them file bankruptcy and restructure. They don't get it!

All 3 flew in to Washington in their private jets! What a sham!!!! They will never learn till they are forced to restructure!!!!

Why are their jets not for sale right now? Cut costs!

NG3-

Average UAW hourly pay rates are $28/hr, but the benefits drive the total hourly labor costs to a staggering $73/hr, mostly because of the defined benefits now contained in the VEBA. Contrast that to Toyota, who pays average hourly rates of $27/hr, but its benefits (401k, profit sharing, Blue Cross/HMO health plans) only tack on $21/hr to the total hourly labor cost, or $48/hr.

GM's most senior line workers now get $51/hr as opposed to Toyota's $35/hr, which was my point.

And the Japanese do keep rates competitive for exactly the reasons you point out, but if GM/Ford/Chrysler were to match their overall hourly rates, I seriously doubt that they would reduce pay to their US workers to try to recapture their advantage...if they did, the UAW would be in there in a heartbeat.

It may be time to think of protectionism in America.

Other countries do it.

We've lost our steel industry and now stand on the verge of losing another entire American industry.

Anyone wanna know who envisioned NAFTA, wrote NAFTA, and signed NAFTA? George HW Bush. Somehow people rant on Clinton for that when he had little role in it's design or implementation.

Tax the crap out of foreign automobiles and imported goods. They played dirty for many years - selling cars here at a loss to drive up market share, offset with sky high prices in Japan. Same with steel before that. Customer support, software design, textiles, appliance manufacturing, you name it. We've lost most of our main industries that provided millions upon millions of living wage jobs.

Most workers in America are blue collar worker bees. Most bloggers here in the daytime are white collar or unemployed - the two top groups with a computer in front of them and the time to blog. What do they care about manufacturing jobs? Same pencils pushed whether or not things are manufactured in China or Ohio as long as they're sold here, right? Who are you going to sell your services to when no one can afford them?

Something has got to take precedence over dividends for shareholders (done in nefarious ways it turns out) and bonuses to execs. Your company goes belly up you lose your job, your retirement, or both. We don't make anything here anymore. More unemployed, less tax revenue coming in and more going out. Endless cycle until corporations a grip and start caring about America - whether by will or legislative force.

Labor and unions are an excuse, not the reason they are failing.

There are plenty of reasons why they are failing, but the UAW contracts and defined benefits contained therein are first amongst equals.

Lets put the bailout in perspective-about one month of Iraq.

And ROC- the retirement costs and bennies for 500,000 retirees isn't really paid to each worker. To say that it adds into the hourly rate is silly. You could add it to the cost of factory lawncare or new car advertising just as easily.

Let's put this into perspective.
They are asking for 25B. And the country is up in arms.
AIG got 100B and no one batted an eye. No one.
The financials got nearly 600B and the liquidity crisis is still with us.

Give them 25B, once, and if they fail, they fail.

The Big Three were doing OK as long as gas hog SUV's and trucks were selling. No credit, no sales.

The auto industry worked like a charm for 80 years in America. Unions became a necessity as poor working conditions, pay, safety, and lack of any sense of job security were the norm. Unions created the middle class after WW2. One man could make enough to support a family of four or five.

Bad management decisions on product line and a lack of advocacy by the federal government as Japan cheated their way to market share are much more to blame than unions.

Guess who was in the WH while Japan dumped cars on the U.S. to gain market share? A former union head. Guess.

AU,

How old is your sister...the one in the hospital?

There are plenty of reasons why they are failing, but the UAW contracts and defined benefits contained therein are first amongst equals.

#36 | Posted by Rightocenter

They say that in every industry. Meat packing, manufacturing, and now the financial sector.

I was in NYC end of last year. THOUSANDS of employees in the financial district (Including Wall Street) were 'laid off' and replaced by Chinese and Indian H-1B workers doing the same job for a fraction of the wages Americans made.

We've been sold down the river by NAFTA, supply side economics, and a malaise the last 8 years that turned a blind eye to the well being of American workers.

Chinese and Indian H-1B workers doing the same job for a fraction of the wages Americans made.

While CEO's and top management took home multimillion dollar bonuses. The only 'belt tightening' happens to the worker bees trying to make ends meet, not those responsible for reckless business practices.

EBERLY

She died in April - much to young.

AU-

Bill Clinton himself would disagree with you...while NAFTA was conceived and the initial agreements were written by the GHWB administration, Clinton signed it into law in November 1993, made its passage a strong legislative priority of his administration and Mickey Kantor, Clinton's Trade Representative, was a strong advocate of NAFTA. The Clinton Administration oversaw the implementation of NAFTA and Bill still makes speeches on how NAFTA is part of his legacy.

Right Wingers are all the same. When it's their sides doings they will do their level best to deflect top a Democrat. It never fails. Right Wingers rotten to the very core.

Larry

Sorry to hear that AU. How old was she?

Larry, there are plenty of Democrats against this bailout. Rwithabrain is right. We let the Washington elite bailout financial institutions and look where that's got us. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Someone here pointed out we've bailed out several companies for hundreds of billions of dollars. $100,000,000,000 to AIG, $150,000,000,000 to Fannie/Freddie, Countrywide, the list is long. We've financed buyouts of failing brokerage houses to the tune of billions, and we have now allocated $700,000,000,000 to bail out Wall Street and the mortgage industry while they use the money for acquisitions of other banks rather than settling bad loans or easing credit.

If we'll do that for Wall Street WTF is the problem with $35 billion to save 3 million jobs? Sure, there need to be strings - everyone in the Big Three, top down, tightens their belts and make necessary changes.

Why should we let our largest industry fall when we were so quick to bail out the financial sector? Why has the government been so slow to ensure a level playing field in trade? Perhaps becoming a debtor nation to China froze Bush's balls, or, more likely, he just doesn't have the empathy to care about people he knows and seems to care nothing about - American workers. He wasn't one himself (so to speak) until he moved into the Texas Governor's mansion.

I'll be so glad when adults are running the WH again, and we have a President who's sacrificed himself to help unemployed steel workers. W doesn't have a clue.

We've lost our steel industry and now stand on the verge of losing another entire American industry.

If we had fought to keep it, what would it be like today? Obviously we would have to keep steel prices high enough to support those mills (and the owners) and force people here to buy that steel.

Can you say for certain that high priced steel wouldn't have demolished the auto industry sooner?

t would FORCE American auto makers (management and labor) to make the kind of decisions that are necessary for them to survive.

#1 | POSTED BY FEDUPWITHPOLS

If you think that the CEO's and upper management are going to sacrifice one dime of the uber lifestyles you are delusional.

I have yet to see one of these "leaders" step up to the plate and say that since they are hemorraghing cash they would forego their salary and perks.

They all flew into Wash on their corporate owned luxury jets to cry about how poor they were.

Bankruptcy would just fuck over the retirees and workers.

My post was not a deflection, Larry, AU tried to deflect NAFTA away from Clinton, but no amount of verbal gymnastics can achieve that.

EB

50

My post was not a deflection, Larry, AU tried to deflect NAFTA away from Clinton, but no amount of verbal gymnastics can achieve that.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2008-11-19 08:27 PM | Reply

The one who gets the ball rolling is chiefly responsible no matter how much You wish it away it won't. Please do try again

Larry

Brutal AU.

You had mentioned her outrageous hospital bill. I have seen hundreds.....all make me sick.

You had mentioned her outrageous hospital bill. I have seen hundreds.....all make me sick.

Posted by eberly at 2008-11-19 08:28 PM | Reply

is 8 grand reasonable for 3 days in hospital care?? thats 4 blood transfussions and basic care??

Bankruptcy would just fuck over the retirees and workers.

They are getting fucked either way.

If these assholes really wanted help they would all stand up together and announce that executive salaries will be slashed 40% (example) and line workers would be lowered down to comparable to the toyota and nissan plant costs ($48/hr total cost)....unions and executive standing shoulder to shoulder....it would be perfect.

I don't know how much money that saves but the publicity would be HUGE and the country would support a bailout. right or wrong. We would all cry and beg our govt to help them.

Those fuckers could get WAY more money that way.

ROC

NAFTA sucks. Most of the 'free trade' agreements do IMO. It's time we watch out for our own. Protectionism. Duties on imported goods in industries that lose X number of manufacturing jobs. They don't play fair and we do. Time for us to play by their rules when it comes to trade.

"Free Trade" is good in theory if it goes both ways, but most of our trading partners 'trade' us goods and take the money and jobs out of our economy by any means necessary.

Pharmas are doing that right now in reverse. We get soaked here at home while they sell $100 U.S. prescriptions for $5 to gain market share. Japan did it with cars and steel, China with cheap electronics, steel, India with software design and customer service. Which industry's next? Our manufacturing base is decimated.

Sorry, but Bill Clinton was a strong advocate of NAFTA. He promoted it and signed it. Trying to blame it on Bush the Smarter is just partisanship.

Sorry, but Bill Clinton was a strong advocate of NAFTA. He promoted it and signed it. Trying to blame it on Bush the Smarter is just partisanship.

#58 | Posted by nullifidian at 2008-11-19 08:36 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

I disagree emphatically. Bush 41 is the one who got the ball rolling on it. No matter what Bill Clinton did afterwards the one chiefly responsible is the one who knocks the first domino down.

Larry

You had mentioned her outrageous hospital bill. I have seen hundreds.....all make me sick.

#54 | Posted by eberly

Health care costs are sucking the life out of American industry and families.

No excuse but unbridled greed.

Bill Frist's family started all this 'managed care" (decisions by people with no medical training 1000 miles away, paid to deny as much as possible), buying up community hospitals across the country in much the same manner Henry Ford and John D. Rockefeller bought up all the trolley tracks in the U.S. (making hospitals 'for profit' instead of 'non-profit').

Pharmas dump prescriptions overseas for a pittance and soak us here for the very same pills.

It's a sick system. 'For profit medical care' is an oxymoron.

Larry-

If Clinton was against NAFTA (he wasn't) he could have refused to support the legislation (he didn't, and actually championed it) and then refused to sign it into law (which he enthusiatically signed with great fanfare).

Eb-

I agree, the execs should slash their own salaries, fly commercial and the union leaders should do the same and the union members should agree to packages that are comparable to US plants of Japanese manufacturers, as a precondition to getting the bailout.

Won't happen, but would be great for the industry.

Don't blame me, I voted Perot; Twice.

"The "giant sucking sound" was United States Presidential candidate Ross Perot's colorful phrase for what he believed would be the negative effects of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which he opposed. The phrase, coined during the 1992 U.S. presidential campaign, referred to the sound of U.S. jobs heading south for Mexico should the proposed free-trade agreement go into effect.

Perot ultimately lost the election, and the winner, Bill Clinton, supported NAFTA, which went into effect on January 1, 1994."

AU-

I agree that we should have "eye for an eye" trade policies with every trade partner, but that is political suicide for most politicians, because their constituents love cheap clothes, food, electronics and cars and will freak out if they go away, especially in this economy.

No matter what Bill Clinton did......

Larry illustrates what a great communicator he is and how he can discuss things so maturely.

Larry illustrates what a great communicator he is and how he can discuss things so maturely.

Posted by eberly at 2008-11-19 08:46 PM | Reply

If I wanted Your opinion I would ask for it. You Dig??

Larry

As much as I hate to rain on the "piss and moan parade", the US steel industry is making a dramatic comeback, which is directly related to the pragmatic approach that the United Steelworkers Union took regarding wages and benefits about 5 years ago:

Perot ultimately lost the election, and the winner, Bill Clinton, supported NAFTA, which went into effect on January 1, 1994."

I don't know how the bastards can sleep that voted for Clinton no sir I don't. Dirty rotten goddam fuckers....what with all the pink slips in their hands now.

-larrymohr

Trying to blame it on Bush the Smarter is just partisanship.

I expect nothing less from most DR posters.

You know ever since You received that first promotion You have been the drizzling shits Eberly. You know that??

Larry

EBERLY

Here's one from personal experience on health care:

My sister had to do chemo and radiation a lot. So, the oncologist prescribed medication (shots) to boost her immune system. My sister's coverage would only cover the treatment she had to get once a week and not the same medicine, stronger version, that she could get once a month - FOR LESS !!

My wife and I ended up shelling out almost $1000 a month for the 'once a month' shot so she didn't have to get out in the cold and go to the doctor's office once a week ... when she barely had the energy to wash dishes.

What's logical about their thinking? Nothing.

Her final hospital had the audacity to send me her final bill that included items I mentioned before like $80 boxes of Kleenex (new box billed every other day and labeled "mucous removal instrument!!), and many items she never got or never used because she was in a coma all but the first hour she was there - out of her final week. I told them to sue her if they didn't like it not getting paid.

Her life insurance company, who she'd paid faithfully for years, canceled her policy two months before she died when her payment was 2 days late due to another hospitalization. They just looked for an opportunity. There ya go. I hope I made my feelings clear about how I feel about our 'health' care system. It's a 'money care' system with 'health' as only the rhetorical cash cow.

*Germany, Japan and Sweden manage to make great cars that people want while co-operating with their strong unions*

Hmmm, where to begin? *Sweden making great cars* Volvo is owned by Ford...has been for over ten years...Saab by GM...both are failing miserably. GM had to invest over 3 BILLION dollars in Saab just to keep it a float a few years ago. Is a Saab really a Saab when it shares many parts with a Chevy Malabu?

Same deal with Volvo...sharing platform parts with many of mainstream parts. *Smart* Europeans are turning away from them in droves. Ford and Chevy thought the *cashe* of owning these companys would rub off on their US counterparts..no such luck.

Other than the Germans, most other European car makers are small potatoes.

p.s...much of the Ford and GM product produced, designed and built in Europe IS NOT the same crap they build here.

CEOs for the BIG-3 flew to Washington, each in their own private jet, to beg for money. What is wrong with this picture?

I'm all for bailing these companies out, provided top management and their entire board are fired first. Its called accountability.

Her life insurance company, who she'd paid faithfully for years, canceled her policy two months before she died when her payment was 2 days late due to another hospitalization.

You probably have a bad faith claim against the Insurance company, you should look at your policy and see a good Insurance Lawyer. Betcha they settle after a couple of good demand letters.

For the US Auto Industry to survive, the UAW has to make the same hard choices that the USW did, but needs to do it before the Big 3 go into BK.

#66 | Posted by Rightocenter

Here, here. I've thought about that. It appears they really don't care about their Union Brothers and Sisters.

Her life insurance company, who she'd paid faithfully for years, canceled her policy two months before she died when her payment was 2 days late due to another hospitalization.

My brother died 3 years ago and had let his policy lapse for 3 months prior to his death.

I got them to pay. I contacted the State insurance department and filed a complaint. there is a grace period on lapses and a reinstatement opportunity also (death would nulify a reinstatement) but you can argue that she was allowed a reinstatement opportunity.

I have seen tons of hospital bils like the one you described but I would not let go of the life insurance thing.

I am very serious about that. 2 days??? I would fight that. Get the company name and policy number

As much as I hate to rain on the "piss and moan parade", the US steel industry is making a dramatic comeback

ROC

Glad to hear it. The Rust Belt hasn't yet. Drive around the Great Lakes region or Pittsburgh. Rusty remnants of what once was. Blight and decimation of entire communities - like the one Obama was a community organizer in on the South Side of Chicago, where steel plants closed by the dozen as cheap steel flooded the U.S. market.

The cost of transporting steel here could help us, but only as long as oil stays low. What do you bet that once Japan and now China cornered the market on steel they started to raise their prices as competition disappeared from U.S. shores? A friend of mine is a steel broker. They don't sell a single U.S. made line. Those huge rolls come from overseas to not only the U.S. but European markets as well.

Once they have a virtual monopoly they raise their prices - just like they did with small auto imports.

Again, glad to hear the U.S Steel industry is making a comeback. Lord knows we need a manufacturing base in America. Not everyone can afford to leave college with $100,000 in debt when there are no jobs for grads. Can't keep that up long.

The cost of transporting steel here could help us, but only as long as oil stays high

1969, my first used BMW 1600; Then a used 2002.
Got a job as a dealer mechanic, DeGress Motors, Austin, bought the first 2002tii sold in Texas, Feb '72, drove it damn near a quarter century and a third of a million miles. Sold it to my old friend Terry Sayther; AFAIK it still lives.

The immediate post-Iacocca Chrysler stuff was pretty good, but the obscene decadence kicked in.

BTW the Durango has 156,000 miles; Works fine, but I use it only when I need it. The C4S, at 76,538 miles gets better mileage than a Smart, still has the original brakes, and can easily live for 30 years.

I have never even considered a Ford product since 1967; GM 1969, with a disappointing try in '86.

The last five Chrysler products have done fine, OTOH I always had a bulletproof German car in the stable.

Japanese shit is like a Sansui stereo; Crap.

Except for cutting edges.

Heat the steel until it is the color of the rising sun, then fold it.

So I'm still good to go with my two beater VW's and with gas projected to drop less than 30 bucks a barrel guess I can't complain.

What year are the VWs?

You have been the drizzling shits Eberly.

I hope Hans is keeping an archive of these.

"I hope Hans is keeping an archive of these."

I keep an archive of everything.

;0)

Hans

I keep an archive of everything.

;0)

Hans

#83 | Posted by Hans

What were Maryjo's last words when the Lincoln Continental door wouldn't open?

??

??

#85 | Posted by eberly

Teddy Kennedy's girlfriend who didn't care for American made cars.

So this says it all, less competition and all these mergers are not making the consumer better off, it raises the prices.

Don't bail them out, we don't need anymore manufacturing/production and it will be the beginning and the end for our military.

Let the industry work or fail, don't bail them out.

"What were Maryjo's last words when the Lincoln Continental door wouldn't open?"

"Isn't that a stop sign ahead?"

- Judy Dykes

Hans

EBERLY

I have the policy here as well as the cancellation letter. It was in her stuff. It's too late for that. They said she had a preexisting condition even though she was healthy when she first started paying on it years ago. It was only enough for burial anyway. I wrote another check. I'm really not in the mood to fight insurance companies anymore. Funny how it works they're not so nice when someone actually gets sick. Don't believe the warm & fuzzy TV commercials! LOL

My sister lived in Michigan and I was there a lot this last year or two. Michigan is hurting BADLY. HORRIBLY. Homes in foreclosure, home prices falling 50% in some cases, unemployment, desperation everywhere but the neighborhoods near country clubs. Things began moving downhill in America when manufacturing started to other lands and cheap imports replaced living wage jobs .... Why do we need cheap goods now? Right now paychecks don't go as far as they used to. We actually import unemployment and lower wages.

We'll get out of this mess. We're America. We always come back better than before when we put our minds together as Americans and unite around a common purpose. We're so polarized right now I pray we'll see the light and get back to being Americans that look out for each other, where a sense of right and wrong replace greed in the struggle for the soul of this country and the well being of it's people.

Repub's prove again to completely hate America, Americans and their Families!!!

As always, if $25 Billion will Help the biggest American Companies responsible for beginning the Industrial revolution,
just like last year with HealthCare for Americans - ALL REPUBS REFUSE and FIGHT IT!!

Suddenly COCKSUCKERS have HUGE concerns with How much it "Cost"
and "How will Americans get the Money Back" ..???

But these same flaming REPUBLITARD COCKSUCKERS will keep sending
funnels of $100s of BILLIONS to IRAQ with NO GUARANTEES except that it will ALL be abused and LOOTED,
fighting againist ANY FORM of ACCOUNTABILITY, and providing ZERO VALUE to any AMERICANS!!!??????

HEY!! FUCK YOU REBULICAN CONGRESSIONAL CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!
How about helping AMERICA and the MIDDLE CLASS and just ONCE NOT FUNNELLING CASH to your RICHEST PALS!!!

Gunner right there with you but as long as you keep thinking it's Repubs Vs. Democrats you will be part of the problem.

Would you consider not bailing these guys out and coming home from Iraq? We need to cut ALL cost not just the stuff we spend on the other guys pet projects.

Oh and IF the American Steel industry is coming back it is because the crazy price of steel right now is making it easy to make money.

Let them go under, the money will be used only to bailout the union, fuck em, let the union members deal with their leadership. There is'nt a car on the planet that is worth any more than 6,000 bucks, these auto workers have been living off the American workers dime for far too long. If they wanted to stay in business they would have become competitive, kept cars and trucks affordable, and gas efficient, they have known since the early 70s that the oil tycoons were going to keep driving up the cost of oil, the fucking libs will want to tax gas into oblivion , by justifying their actions as the American people were getting used to paying 4.00 a gallon, so raise the tax on 1.09 a gallon back to 3.50 to 4.00 a gallon, then the states will tack on their rape fee as well.The marxist have justified these huge prices for their cash cow global warming, when anyone with any real intelligence knows it is a proven hoax, a scam.

How many U.S. cars are allowed in Japan, korea, China, and europe??

This issue has nothing to do with the unions but apparently the repub-democrat uneducated have been able to figure this out yet.

Just reading these posts and seeing the ignorance and one can really see why America is in real educational trouble.

MONEYWAR

I know what you're talking about (from a post of mine earlier today) :

They've already won the war for the auto, electronic, and steel industries - all while keeping their shoulders on the door against our imports and engaging in the most egregious abuses of unfair trade and product dumping for market share to get there.

We let the Japanese shut us out, now China's doing it. Maybe it's all those billions we owe them keeping the President from growing a pair of balls.

Unfair trade was a campaign issue with Obama, who's promised to reexamine all our trade agreements and fix what isn't working for us. An eye for an eye is the only thing some cultures understand.Obama worked in the neighborhoods of those who lost their jobs to imported steel - imported from countries that hold up barriers for our goods. If any President is intimately aware of the ramifications of bad trade policy he is.

I am convinced that Bush and Paulson are actually purposely attempting to throw the United States into a depression. I believe that the strategy President Elect Obama and the decent Democrats ought to adopt is to let it be known that if the Republicans actually go along with this plot that the taxes enacted on the wealthy will increase in direct proportion to the unemployment rate. They should also let investors know that immediately after the power hand over bailout money will be provided and that if a lender can be found to front the money to them now they will have no risk of payback because the bailout money will guarantee that loan. These criminals are attempting to cause a tremendous hardship on millions and they should not be allowed to get away with it. I would be ashamed to have ever voted for these criminals and I wouldn't blame anyone for denying it now though if you have an IQ over 80 you really have no legitimate excuse.

Car shortages? Are they kidding?

There is no shortage of cars. Maybe they mean, "we'll make less newer cars". You don't need a new car to survive. There are so many used car lots, there is no shortage.

I'm leery of an auto industry consultant telling me cars will be 5-15% more expensive if I don't support giving them shitloads of money to keep what they're doing.

Fuck the lobbyists, and fuck American auto companies if they can't produce a car that people will want today, tomorrow, or years from now after they have to declare bankruptcy.

I am convinced that Bush and Paulson are actually purposely attempting to throw the United States into a depression.

#95 | Posted by danni

Isn't this exactly what Naomi Klein wrote about in Shock Doctrine? The administration lets things go to shit intentionally, then all of the sudden there's a company with a "solution" willing to fix the problem if only they had millions of tax dollars to do so, provided by their allies in Washington.

Can you say "Black Water"? Intentionally send too few troops into combat, and suddenly there's Black Water to the rescue.

Sorry to triple post, but couldn't some enterprising start up make a shitload of money by retrofitting all the excess gas guzzling SUV's to use less fuel?

I'm sure someone smarter than I could find a way.

How many U.S. cars are allowed in Japan, korea, China, and europe??

This issue has nothing to do with the unions but apparently the repub-democrat uneducated have been able to figure this out yet.

Just reading these posts and seeing the ignorance and one can really see why America is in real educational trouble.

#93 | Posted by moneywar

I'm in 100% agreement. In addition to not pushing back on the trade deficit, our prices are too high, mostly caused by the US monetary policy.

There is plenty of oportunity for smaller firms to begin building automobiles outside the industry that is controlled by unions. There would be significant cost savings.

"Bankruptcy Could Slam Consumers"

* * * *

Not to mention several pilots, mechanics, gourmet chefs, and stewardesses who work for the General Motors Air Force.

Let GM go down!!!!!! Maybe when they restructure they will do it efficiently this time.

"Let GM go down!!!!!! Maybe when they restructure they will do it efficiently this time."

Good idea, it worked for Studebaker.

A GM bankruptcy will be good for America in the long term. $1600 is the cost that GM pays for each car just for healthcare for its employees. Toyota pays a fraction of this amount. Let's not even discuss that GM pays 12,000 employees full pay for NOT working under their UAW contract.

With union contracts dead, GM will be able to sell cars for a LOWER price. Plus without unions, quality control will improve because you can get rid of lazy or careless employees without dealing with all the union procedures to dump bad employees.

I suspect UTASTAFF is unknowingly on to part ot the scheme that the Republicans think they are going to get past us. Card Check is coming up in the first year of the new Congress and it will enable all those non-union factories to instantly become unionized even in spite of right to work laws so they want to bankrupt the US automakers and the UAW before that happens.

"$1600 is the cost that GM pays for each car just for healthcare for its employees. Toyota pays a fraction of this amount."

Nationalize health care would eliminate any problem, interestingly and coincidentally, that is also going to be on the agenda.
It helps if you can think like the scum bag Republicans who claim to love America but hate Americans.

Maybe that bailout money will go for jetfuel, personal vacations of the ceo's and to strippers.

It could go to the Mexican HHR plant or the Korea plant. Maybe the ones in Canada and their Unions.

Will it really go to American workers? I doubt it. Wagoner could not even answer where it would go as he flew of in one of nine private jets.

What's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $24 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.