On Section W1 of last weekend's Wall Street Journal there is a piece titled "Just say no to Detroit," written by a finance professor at some New York business school. He makes the point that the Big Three have for decades been destroying hundreds of billions of dollars in investment capital. The reason I use the word destroy is because after such huge investments, they have seen their market share shrink while those of "foreign" auto makers have increased. The piece makes the point that it would be more productive to burn the $25 billion the auto industry wants, or better yet, give each auto worker $10,000.

Yesterday on the local Detroit NBC affiliate (WDIV) they had the top guy of the UAW and the top guy at GM on a local political show called Flashpoint. From what I saw, the Big Three doesn't want to change. Management would not even consider resigning, blaming others for their problem instead, and the Unions insist on maintaining pensions and other benefits for retirees. I got the same impression watching MTP. Michigan Senator Karl Lening is basically a public relations guy for the Big Three.

Circuit City has also gone bankrupt? Where is their bailout?

My uncles repair shop is also going bankrupt. Where is his bailout?

Welcome to capitalism...it isn't pretty.

On today's WSJ, page A19 there is an opinion piece titled: "Why Bankruptcy Is the Best Option for GM"

Very well written.

grass cutters get 26 dollars a hour + benefits at GM,gotta love the unions.

No question. Bankruptcy and restructuring is the only thing that can make the u.s. auto industry viable again. Giving them money is like giving a junkie another hit. It solves nothing.

This is not the fault of the Unions.

It's the Unions fault. stupid peasants wanting to better themselves. Cutting in on my 15 million dollar salary, like hell they will. I will run this company into the ground then pull the cord on my golden parachute. So long suckers!

"Bankruptcy and restructuring is the only thing that can make the u.s. auto industry viable again. "

Two other things must occur.

One is to change the American mindset that bigger is always better. Most other countries seems to make due with much smaller vehicles, despite the fact that they too are raising families of equal size as the Americans.

Second is to either import many of the proven designs of smaller vehicles from the international partners of the Big Three and start producing them here, or that the Big 3 themselves start designing and producing cars that are the equal.

We really should have far more Kei cars or microcars in this country. Still too much arrogance in this country and too much value placed on the kind of car you own versus the character of the person behind the wheel.

"No question. Bankruptcy and restructuring is the only thing that can make the u.s. auto industry viable again."

Yeah, buyers are going to flock to buy cars made by companies in bankruptcy.
Never mind the cost of health care tacked onto American autos, never mind the credit crisis which is causing ALL countries that have auto industries to bail them out during the WORLDWIDE CREDIT CRISIS.

The one thing you could accurately say is most responsible for our auto industries' problems it would be the relatively low gas prices in the US while other nations tacked heavy taxes onto their gas. That created a market for fuel efficient autos which we did not create here. Americans wanted to buy big SUVs and trucks and now want to blame the companies that built them for giving them what they wanted.

Honda and Toyota are not running out of cash, and I haven't heard anything of Tokyo bailing them out.

The Big Three were losing market share even when the economy was good. Last week I posted a blog entry titled "How to save the auto industry." The aritcle to which it linked made the point that if Washington had to bailout the Big Three, the management and board of directors had to go and shareholders needed to be wiped out. A government-appointed receiver would supporvise an orderly bankruptcy reorganization assuring consumers that the company would be around to honor warrantees, etc. If there is to ba a bailout, I would favor that kind of approach, it should be very harsh and punitive to the people who ruined the companies.

sorry but it is not the fault of the American consumer that every car that GM sells results in a net loss of $1,500.

Japan didn't bail out Nissan when they had cash issues. Let them go into bankrupcy.Companies that can't build a competitive produlct deserve to fail

Another point that the WSJ (Saturday) article makes is that GM has EIGHT brands. Give me a break! I am sure they can do with 2 or 3 brands. EIGHT is way to much.

GM stock is $3.47, Ford is $1.85 and Toyota is $62.86. I wonder why?

Well if the Big three would just use the frickin' technology to build the fuel efficient cars (that are not hybrids) that the people want and they have had prototyped since the 70's (according to my Grandfather that used to work for GM in Ohio) then maybe they wouldn't be in this mess... :/

Ford and GM stock are in danger of being delisted. I believe that if a particular stock has an average price below $1 for 30 days or more, they are delisted from the market. If you want to buy them, you still could, but "over the counter", but you wouldn't know if what you are paying is a good price or not because it would be a private deal with someone who wants to sell it.

The airlines also went through bankruptcy, then came out doing well by restructuring. The US auto industry has not been keeping up with technology like the japanese cars have, and the loss of sales is making them have to catch up.

Clearly the healthcare system is causing issues with the car industry, but that is a separate problem and can't be properly fixed with a bailout. Also, I wouldn't say it's the union's fault per se that the car industry is having trouble, but the way the unions are work, the way they are run, and the agreements they have with car companies are overloaded with burdens that are making it very hard for the car companies to restructure themselves.

GM going into bankruptcy will allow them to rework those agreements and restructure more sensibly. In the end, there will be more benefit that if the government were to bail them out. Either way, I don't think GM is going to go under.

If the government did, however, get involved in union procedings and help allow GM to restructure, then perhaps both the bailout and the bankruptcy can be avoided.

The 700Bil bailout, I still think, is wrong. Paulson hasn't given out huge amounts, hasn't done what he said he would do with it at all, and the large banks that didn't get bailout money already offering packages to people to help with their broken mortgages. I think, at least in this case, it will work itself out.

Yeah, buyers are going to flock to buy cars made by companies in bankruptcy.

helped Studebaker, Packard and Rambler. Oh wait...

I'm guessing the GOP got more donations from banks-they had zero problem bailing out crooked and incompetent financial institutions. Of course, maybe those financial institutions directly or indirectly employ 1 in 7 Americans too. And I'm sure Lehman Brothers could produce tanks in time of war quickly too.
Most of the opposition comes from politicians with foreign manufacturers in their states-I guess that's what Republicans mean by "Country First". And as for government intervention in the auto industry-the europeans, japanese (big time) and korean governments all played major roles in developing & financially supporting their auto industries-sort of like the US and aircraft manufacturers, which Republicans had no problem doing. Or maybe Republicans really believe there's really open markets in SK and Japan and the Big Three just don't want to export there.
Any support needs to be made on a precentage Made in America basis.

This is not the fault of the Unions.

#6 | Posted by ZOT at 2008-11-17

my first inclination is to just say bullshit but you are partially right,
its also the fault of politicians,mainly dems, who are in the pocket of the unions

for instance carl levin yesterday on meet the press was almost secretive about his support for this bailout

and
the dems want to give them BILLLIONS OF OUR MONEY
then tell them what kind of cars to make
how many miles they have to get
tell them how much they can or cannot pay ceos

BUT THEN WONT TELL THE UNIONS THEY HAVE TO CHANGE A FUCKIN THING

and just remember.......ITS not levins money...its mine and yours........

"Top Republicans are hitting the brakes on a plan by Democrats to spend $25 billion rescuing American automakers."

Could the fact that a large percentage of the American people are against it be part of the reason why?

and if the divide in the senate as a whole is as wide as it was yesterday between levin and shelby....they are a long way from a compromise and a compromise isnt in our best interest anyway.
the only point levin made was that this reaches further than the big three but it also touches the other industries.........

TOYOTA AND NISSAN Dont seem to be missing this though, DO THEY???

so whats the difference
maybe its the business MODEL as they are saying andthe unions hAVE A MAJOR PART OF THAT>........

and shelby also kicked levins ass with this one comment on the fact that we gave them 25 billion not long ago and what was thier INOVATION???

they gave fuel subsidies to people who bought SUV"s AND HUMMERS.

my goodness so where is the "GREEN" IN THAT?????

Giving them money to operate as they have over the last 30 years is a waste of time and cash. These companies have been going bankrupt for a few decades now, with no significant changes to the way they operate, to the type of vehicles they produce. In the mid90s, I was implicated with one of the big three from a marketing and advertising perspective and even from my limited perspective, their strategic plan, model selection and market approach was pathetic. They seemed to bank on their past being a guaranty for their future, production driven instead of customer centric...build it and they will come.

Unless these jokers can provide a strong restructuring plan and a clear vision for the next 10 years, send them to the scrap heap, pronto.

Who'd buy anything GM produces? Their engineering failed, their marketing failed, their executives failed, but let's blame the people that actually make the car because they're paid relatively well. What utter horseshit. Toyota makes the Prius, GM makes the Hummer. Not really hard to figure out, now is it? And, I hate to say it, but BushLoser2 is right.

Who'd buy anything GM produces?
Posted by LetUsPrey

I'd have no problem buying a Pontiac Vibe. I think I know where I can get parts.

Welcome to capitalism...it isn't pretty.

#2 | Posted by DelaV3

If you think that is capitalism, you are more stupid than anyone could imagine. That is COMMINUSM'.

I hate to see another US company go under, but they certainly don't seem to learn any lessons. At least the Repubs are practicing what they preach this time about a market based economy, although I doubt a lot of them would be saying the same thing if it was not for the publics' opposition.

The only way they should get a bailout is if they and the union make some concessions. It put most of the blame on the management, but the employees do get paid a lot more than other manufacturers, and the Toyota employees in the US are not exactly making slave wages.

Don't even TRY to tell me the unions are not a great part of the problem. Things like this...and corporate taxes...go a long way toward explaining businesses in exodus.

"Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

Big 3 and suppliers pay billions to keep downsized UAW members on payroll in decades-long deal.

By Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News

WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.

The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing.

Good for them.

No Bailout without CONDITIONS.

Condition #1: Fire top management and board that brought the company to the point they're in. Pay these bums their fat salaries, but no bonuses or other benefits.

Condition #2: Pay an interim qualified rescue team to present a viable detailed recovery plan.

Condition #3: Provide funding after confirmation of the viability of the recovery plan based on Conservative assumptions. The kind of thing every ordinary person was subjected to until Greenspan and Shrub reinvented "wealth creation".

Well, like it or lump it. If the big 3 fail or come close this country is going to lose millions of jobs, millions... The retirees (like my Father) will lose their ability to help the economy by spending money (and that alone probably runs into the hundreds of millions of dollars over time). It will also hurt the import market and import companies as the domestic suppliers supply the imports as well as the domestic car companies but cannot survive in the tough market place without both. The trickle down from all those lost jobs will effect whole towns/cities/states in the shape of failed grocery stores, banks, bars, entertainment ticket sales, home sales, more home forclosures, health-care, etc. etc. Like it or lump it, the big 3 are a HUGE part of this countries economy and will hurt lots if they fail and we can't afford too much more. Good, bad, or indifferent they must be allowed to survive, simple.

HOLY SHIT,..,...

its been a while since so many of us from such diverse political stands have been on the same page

immigration reform was the last I believe and I have to tell you

its kind of nice even though it also means that we will be fucked in the ass over this together..

so nutcase and others.......get ready to make an appointment for a therapists..
but we are in agreement here

and WE WILL HAVE TO rise up and tell them all that enough is enough

I think I know where I can get parts.

Yeah, Tijuana.

Here's what gets me...I tried to fix a taillight on a late model Chevy. Bulb was good, socket was good, but a chip in the circuit board went bad. $50 and probably twice that for labor if you took it to a dealer.

I'm not sure why they need a circuit board for a two wire circuit, and I'll bet there's any number of idiocies engineered into American autos, each one driving up the price with no advantage gained.

But the auto industry makes its money on parts and especially finance, and you can bet they'd like to use that money to offer zero percent financing, or some such inducement. I think Nissan has already gone that route.

HEY NUT

just as I said earlier

the gov wants to give them this money and then tell them what kind to make, how much milage, how much to pay the ceo's, but then leave the union alone

and that just doesnt seem right

and UAW has already come out and said that their workers have sacrificed enough........I dont think so

This damn country continues to reward those who fail.

They do it in our schools, there is no "F" for fail anymore,
it is now referred to as differed success.

The Vibe is a Toyota Matrix in disguise.

"I'd have no problem buying a Pontiac Vibe."

#24 | Posted by wisgod

The Vibe is yet another rebadged Toyota (Matrix).

Saturn originally billed as cars designed by Americans and built in America by Americans lost that cachet (and my respect)when it started relying heavily on the German Opel platforms to build quality, reliable vehicles. The latest entry, the Saturn Astra, is nothing more than an Opel Astra, designed in Germany, built in Belgium, and sold to the American public as an American car because it has the Saturn logo.

The Chevy Aveo: A rebadged S. Korean Daewoo.

The real problem is the labor agreements they made 30 years ago, it isn't bueause they can't build a good car.

The true costs of the bennifits they gave away 30 years ago are hitting them now. It was a cost they put off then so their books would look good and they could get the big bonus then. Terrible book keeping practices are true cause of the problem.

They do it in our schools, there is no "F" for fail anymore,
it is now referred to as differed success.

#33 | Posted by yougothurt

thats right and in some places, you cant even grade with a red pen anymore......

and just one question

when it comes to this issue

who supported the dEMS and who suported the republicans and now who will obama back as well

organized labor has already said in one article I read that they paid 80 million to the obama campaign and they are now waiting in line with thier handout.

hell even reich said that the unions have to make some changes in wages and benefits......

Sniper, if resale value is any indication, their cars still don't measure up.

seems that way, wisgod,doesnt it

I mean you can but a used mazda or honda with a lot of miles on it and feel pretty secure in the purchase..can you say the same thing about a ford which has a history of SHITTY transmissions, for example

and if their people are getting paid more than toyota which has been mentioned, shouldnt we expect a better product????

AND STILL another question which has to be asked here..

WHERE DOES IT STOP............who do we bailout and who do we let die??

the BOTTOM LINE......WE are the ones who get it in the end and YES.,...thats a pun

Thes workers at Ford and GM should be punished for manufacturing a shitty product. Maybe the fed should take over Ford and GM long enought to fire all the workers and hire new employees with pride and bus the UAW and form a new union hat wants to make quality cars not collect dues and pad their coffers

all I would tell them is the same thing that I have mentioned here before
and here is the short version

union at US steele plant in my hometown went on strike and they told them that they would have to close that plant if they didnt back down

on that site, now are TWO HUGE BUILDINGS...completely empty........

***"And I'm sure Lehman Brothers could produce tanks in time of war quickly too."*** NorthGuy3

Lehman was not bailed-out by the Fed, they went bankrupt and were purchased by Barclays Wealth.

and if the gov takes over remember the left has a history of "unintended consequences"

hell you know what.....take out the left and replace it with BIG government........

take the ethonol thing
there is word that a major chicken company is on the verge of bankruptcy because of cost in that area

and new york rent controlls was supposed to be temoprory after WW2 and they are still hurting people

FDR started agriculure subsidies to help get out of the depression...and they are STill there.....

and what about sugar import quotas to the tune of 2 billion a year

all info from george will

Resistance to the bailout is indeed a left and right wing coalition and I commend them for it. Bush, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are selling us out per instructions from their Wall Street Masters. Paulson and his underlings are talking shit. They have facilitated the conversion of Goldman-Sachs (their previous employer) from an unregulated investment bank to a regulated commercial bank, protecting them with FDIC money having NEVER paid a premium. If they recover they will NEVER share a cent with their saviors. Total bullshit.

Mort Zuckerman, conservative and liberal pundits on McLaughlin, yesterday made the same point. Conditions must be placed on the money. It is critical at this point in our history not to throw good money after bad. We know the first trillion has accomplished nothing. That's because it was used for buyouts of other banks, given as bonuses, perks and parties or stashed. None of it as intended, but not required, by Congress.

The Dems are beholden to the Unions. They will give GM the money, because the Unions want them to.

If a restructuring of their labor, retirement and health care costs are not part of the deal, we will just be back here in 6 months to a year.

They need sweeping changes. Sure changing management will make a difference. But, take a look at GM and Ford outside of the US. They are doing will. My buiness takes me to South America and China, there are Chevys and Fords down there. So the companies are able to make cars and make a profit. Only in the US their cost structure is out of wack.

This is not the fault of the Unions.

#6 | Posted by ZOT
----------------------
Not soley but they played a part in it. Look the majority of the problem are the useless CEO's making the decision not to create a better product and just thrusting the same old tired used product on us and expect us to buy it up. Secondly, price gouging in the oil industry did not help their product out. The unions have played a part and also Michigan and US politicians have their fair share of the blame.

Lonnie

"Top Republicans are hitting the brakes on a plan by Democrats to spend $25 billion rescuing American automakers."

Could the fact that a large percentage of the American people are against it be part of the reason why?

#19 | Posted by jestgettinalong
---------------------------
Hahaha, do you think that Harry Reid is kicking himself in the ass right now over his tone towards Joe Liebermann? OMG, I think I can hear kissing sounds coming from Washington. I can imagine all of Liebermann's critics are trying to make the big deal they made out of his support for McCain go away! Make no mistake they still need him to block the Republicans.

Lonnie

Thes workers at Ford and GM should be punished for manufacturing a shitty product. Maybe the fed should take over Ford and GM

#41 | Posted by timbci

They couldn't even make a profit when they took over the Mustang Ranch in Nevada. If you can't make it selling pussy and booz, you won't make it anywhere. They didn't even have to pay off the cops.

lest we forget the EDSEL

So let me get this straight, the auto industry leaders say the problem is severe and it will have devastating impact on our economy? So is it fair to say that the same leaders were not up to the task of running such a corporation? Maybe if the bail out happens,and I hope it doesn't, there should be pressure on the unions to trim the fat and participate in some type of a benefit reorganization. Why is it Toyota, Honda and Nissan can build better quality autos, for the same or less money and build them right here in the good old USA, and be profitable? And there not union. Well lets see if the $250,000,000.00 given by the auto industry to the Political partys this year alone can buy the help. I bet it will. well I better go now I have to go and work so I can get my federal taxes in so I can Help GM, Ford and Chrysler. Hey can we run a D&B credit check on them so we can see if they "Qualify" for the low interest loan?

Regarding the bail out of the big three? Most of you are talking from the gut. I was a witeness to the crime.
Why shouldn't the Government bail them out the root cause of the bank failures and the big three are the same? Both are the unintended consequences of the Democrats driving socialist agendas, the big push by Acorn and the Democrats to give all a chance at the American dream of owning property. So they past a lending law. How noble and idealistic and ill thought out. It was a perfect storm as the Capitalist bankers and realtors saw a chance to pray upon some uninformed, uneducated, gullible home buyers and come up with some creative ways and some creative products to bleed this new wealth source called Freddie and Fannie The squeezed the golden goose to near death and now want the government to save them after all it was government intervention that caused the issue.

Now how is this like the likly death of the big three? Well back in the days of Linden Johnson the Socialist Democrats saw a prosperous well run Auto Industry and they decided that all Americans should be availed this same opportunity. There was obvious racism and sexism in hireling and promoting and the easy political cure was government intervention and establishing the EEOC. This again was a good and noble idea with future unintended consequences that would cause the demise of another golden American goose.

The socialist got control of hireling and screening from the companies. The government did the hiring and the Capitalist were sucked into compliance because of greed and the prise was they were rewarded by government subsidies for hiring the long term unemployed and the EEOC set up a credit reward system for the infusion of women and minorities into the auto company's work force. It worked well and because it worked there was no filtering for work ethic and ability when hiring. The government changed the workforce and the ways of management. It was a success and life for the American Autoworkers was much improved for all. Jobs were lighter to accommodate the new population and the old industrialist work ethic of coming to work everyday was challenged. The energy force of the workers started flowing in a new negative direction. No longer was management able to reward performance without a lawsuit.

The UAW recognized this new EEOC law suit tool as new probe tool to control the beasts or (the big three). The UAW and the government via the politically driven EEOC put the big three in cow stanchions and together milked the life from them. Now we have the socialist Democrats and Union in control forcing the big three and other large companies to feed and maintain an oversize unmotivated workforce with a large percentage on workmen's compensation with high absenteeism. The big three were forced into contracts with long term cradle to grave care. All of this worked well for a long time and the big three just raised the price of cars to comply and all of this was supported by the good old American consumer. The Socialist and Capitalist had reached this equilibrium a sort of go along to get along rolling up their pant legs as the industry melted down.
I know because I was there and I witnessed it first hand. NOW the UAW is letting the retirement plan go down the drain so they can buy out some line workers that have been there a year for $100,000.00 The Socialist faction of US Government caused it they need to fix it!

The GOP is right. GM, Ford and Chrysler should not get a bailout. The reason they are going under is because of their unions. When $1600 of each car cost goes to pay for just union healthcare costs, you just can't compete. UAW workers cost almost twice ($75/hr v. $45/jr) as much as Toyota employees. American automakers are not willing to dump their union contracts (which can be done easily by filing bankruptcy) and making cars that American want to drive particularly cars with better gas mileage.

Without changing their fundamentals, all a bailout will do is prolong the inevital by a few more months. These companies NEED to file bankruptcy so they can reorganize and compete better globally.

A loss of the 3 million jobs directly and indirectly related to the auto industry would cost our economy far more than $50,000,000,000.

The last time the govt bailed out an automaker, Chrysler, they came back with a vengeance.

I was watching Sen. Shelby of Alabama yesterday. I agree that a bailout should be accompanied with a change in leadership. It's not those who work in the auto industry. It's those at the top who made bad decisions, not the worker bees who put them together.

How many of you naysayers drive foreign cars only?

A loss of the 3 million jobs directly and indirectly related to the auto industry would cost our economy far more than $50,000,000,000.

The auto industry isn't going away if those companies file for bankruptcy protection so that isn't a fair point.

Chapter 11 bankruptcy requires lines of credit which aren't available right now.

If they're to survive Chapter 11 and not sink to Chapter 7 liquidation.

I can clearly see how we as a nation are failing more and more, reading the posts on this thread and yep, stupid ignorance abounds.

Congressman at Honda plant: Detroit 3 bankruptcy better than bailout
A reorganization of the Detroit 3 in U.S. Bankruptcy Court would be preferable to a federal bailout of the automakers, a U.S. congressman said today on the sidelines of the dedication of a new Honda Motor Co. assembly plant here. Said U.S. Rep. Mike Pence, a Republican from Indiana's 6th District: "Reorganization in federal Bankruptcy Court happens all the time. Companies utilize it all the time and come out stronger and more whole in the end. Read Article [REG] 12:48 pm U.S. ET | Nov. 17 | UPDATED: 11/17/08 4:56 p.m. EST

Yes, I hope you get what you wish for, this nation is in for quite the ride.

It's not just the unions that have screwed up the automakers--it is their lousy managers who build gigantor SUV's that no one is buying.

How is it that GM is selling the number one car in China?

How is it that the other automakers in MS and AL and KY are kicking butt and profiting about $1600 per car when the Big 3 in Detroit are losing $1300 per car built?

Giving these guys more money is a bandaid when the arms are cut off already.

So MW--should they get a bailout or go to the courts for protection?

The cost of GM's death
If Congress thinks a bailout of General Motors is expensive, it should consider the cost of a GM failure. Let's be clear. The alternative to government cash for GM is not a dreamy Chapter 11 filing, a reorganization that puts dealers and the UAW in their place, ensuring future success. No, even if GM could get debtor-in-possession financing to keep the lights on (which it can't), Chapter 11 means a collapse of sales and a spiral into a Chapter 7 liquidation. GM's 100,000 American jobs will die. Read Article [REG] 12:01 am U.S. ET | Nov. 17

Come on baby, this will be the right thing to do. Lets' get all our manufacture and production out of this country, clearly we can all see it ruins our economy. We need way more Walmarts.

Murphy,

give them nothing, not a damn thing. Let the fuckers go under.

It's about time we show the nation real economics and the effects of listening to the elite economists.

Let the big 3 auto industry go under, it will help in the long run to our service economy, we will just have to wait.

With 'One in Ten' jobs connected to the Auto Industry, the need for a bailout seems even more of a necessity than the WS bailout.

Hell, a Spokeswoman for the Treasury recently admitted that the 700 Billion wasn't based on any information. "We just wanted to pick a really large number" was their explanation.

Take 25 Billion from the WS bailout and give it to the Auto Industry with MASSIVE strings attached regarding compensation and fuel efficiency.

Better yet, Let the Oil Co's bail them out. they been complicit for so long.

*They've....

Anyone who buys a JAPANESE or GERMAN or KOREAN car is a TRAITOR to this nation, say what you will.

That Americans allows Japanese auto plants to be built here in the US is undeniably a slap in the face to every American Auto Worker, regardless if that person is in a union or not.

Isolationism is what we need now. Electronics, cars, trucks, toys and whatever else we have outsourced over the last 20 years needs to come back to this country.

It sickens me to hear Right Wing lunatics denegrate American workers and products. Republicans "claim" to be patriotic but are the 1st to cast dispersions on our automotive manufacturers. Profit is what being a "Republican" is all about.

I've never, will never, buy a Japanese or German or Korean piece of shit. F**K Japan and all who suck their little Nipponese penis.

"Anyone who buys a JAPANESE or GERMAN or KOREAN car is a TRAITOR to this nation, say what you will."

#66 | Posted by ArmyVet

Does this apply to any other product of foreign origin?

Clothes

Shoes

Electronics

Food

Oil

If I buy an "American" car that has the electronics manufactured in South Korea, the dashboard manufactured in Mexico, the tires manufactured in Japan, the engine manufactured in Canada, but the parts are all assembled in Detroit and the car sold to me at a dealership in Denver, am I only partially traitorous?

If I buy that new Saturn Astra from my local American Saturn dealership, am I a traitor?

If I buy Gala apples from Argentina, but sold in Safeway, to what degree am I a traitor?

"Isolationism is what we need now."

Okay... How much are you willing to pay for a shirt, shoes, fresh vegetables and fruit, electronics, etc?

Are you personally willing to take a pay cut so others can afford to purchase the product(s) you produce?

"I've never, will never, buy a Japanese or German or Korean piece of shit."

I can assume then that you will fastidiously do your homework before purchasing any product to ensure that there is no foreign content at all. You can start with the fuel you put in your car, then continue with the clothes you put on your back, the shoes on your feet, the food you stuff in your face

"F**K Japan and all who suck their little Nipponese penis."

Wow!!

Why "restructure" a thing? Just let them fail. What's up with the fascist economics of government involvement in the economy?

"Why "restructure" a thing? Just let them fail. What's up with the fascist economics of government involvement in the economy?"

#68 | Posted by LibertineJoseph

Half of me agrees with you.

The other half realizes though that if the Big 3 go Tango Uniform, it will take decades to pull it back out, if at all. The big question: what are you going to do with the 3 million plus people (which I believe is a low estimate) who will be unemployed and in many case unemployable? It is not just the autoworkers themselves, include the suppliers and receivers, and the thousands of dependent businesses, from restaurants to detailers to hotels to auto-sound installers, any business that caters to the autoworkers or the auto product.

And what will replace the vacuum left behind?

"American mindset that bigger is always better. Most other countries seems to make due with much smaller vehicles, despite the fact that they too are raising families of equal size as the Americans."

--- Nissan and Toyota are doing great with their full sized trucks and SUV's. Why does a U.S. manufacturer need to go smaller to succeed?

"Either import many of the proven designs of smaller vehicles from the international partners of the Big Three and start producing them here, or that the Big 3 themselves start designing and producing cars that are the equal."

--- That's already happening.

"We really should have far more microcars in this country."

--- Can't argue with that. But they really only make sense in densely populated areas. You can't tell a farmer to give up his truck so he can make fifteen trips in his Smartcar to the feed store every morning.

"Yeah, buyers are going to flock to buy cars made by companies in bankruptcy."

--- Exactly. The big three will need to work hard to get people to buy their cars. Thus becoming more viable and sustainable companies. If they offer quality products with longer warranties at competitive prices, and can now make a profit because they've restructured their ridiculous union agreements, why not buy from them? I fly on airlines that have gone through bankruptcy all the time. It doesn't bother me a bit.

"The one thing you could accurately say is most responsible for our auto industries' problems it would be the relatively low gas prices in the US while other nations tacked heavy taxes onto their gas. Americans wanted to buy big SUVs and trucks and now want to blame the companies that built them for giving them what they wanted."

--- I've never heard someone blame the company that made their SUV for making it too inefficient. If I heard someone honestly say that I would never stop laughing at them. Either way, artificially inflating the price of gas just puts a strain on people in rural areas who won't get the benefit of the public transportation that the extra money will undoubtedly go toward. My state just passed a statewide gas tax increase that will go to fund a light rail line that less than a quarter of the population will ever use. Talk about redistribution.

what are you going to do with the 3 million plus people (which I believe is a low estimate) who will be unemployed and in many case unemployable? It is not just the autoworkers themselves, include the suppliers and receivers, and the thousands of dependent businesses, from restaurants to detailers to hotels to auto-sound installers, any business that caters to the autoworkers or the auto product.
#69 | POSTED BY ZOT
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The demand for cars isn't going anywhere Zot. If the big 3 completely fold (which they won't) then Toyota, Honda, Nissan and others will increase market share, expand, and hire many of the people that got laid off in Detroit.

Don't even TRY to tell me the unions are not a great part of the problem

Did you read thew dateline on the article Jest-more than 3 years ago. Those agreements are long gone.

The biggest irony here is that the Republicans, who ran a Presidential campaign on "Country First" are the ones who cheerfully follow the dictates of the Peoples Republic of China and the governments of Seoul and Tokyo. Communist China has kept the yuan artificially low to steal jobs and marketshare from American companies and the Righties say, "as long as some Union jobs go, we are cool with that." Never mind that's how drug dealers get their clients hooked. SK and Japan work hand in hand with their industries to flood the US market while setting up non-tariff barriers to keep US autos and other products out of their countries. Again the Right cheers. And for those who'd rather buy European cars, Europe's social system is so far left of even Kusinich's wildest dreams, it isn't even funny.
I guess the Right's envy of an autoworkers negotiated pay and bennies majkes the Right willing to trade the country away, just to see the autoworkers lose something.

It's called a phyrric victory-you can pat yourselves on the back while your on the way to the IMF to pick up your welfare check.

Unions are nothing more than a large tick on the back of everyone, they where needed for a time but like the government , once they got their greedy hands in the deep pockets and promised ppl security, they where in for life. yup, unions are the largest issue with why these cars cost so much. period, end of story. the whole auto ind. needs to go belly up, restructure and those fools need to learn to work for a living, not just wine cause there 2 15min breaks got cutt. /crying like children, most if not all of them dont know what hard work is. union guys setting on their back ends waiting on a call to go change a light or desk fan for someone, its driven up the cost of everything, they need to slim down anyway, and yes, while there at it, cutt out some of the middle mgt. waste also, there is plenty of that to go around...

lest we forget the EDSEL

#50 | Posted by yougothurt

I always wondered what his son, EDSEL< thought about having this junk named after him or was it the other way around??

"Either import many of the proven designs of smaller vehicles from the international partners of the Big Three and start producing them here, or that the Big 3 themselves start designing and producing cars that are the equal."

Here is the truth

I'm guessing the GOP got more donations from banks-they had zero problem bailing out crooked and incompetent financial institutions. Of course, maybe those financial institutions directly or indirectly employ 1 in 7 Americans too. And I'm sure Lehman Brothers could produce tanks in time of war quickly too.

#17 | Posted by northguy3

O.K. so you do realize that more Dems than Repubs. voted for the bailout of the financial sector.

Also seeing as how most companies rely on lines of credit to operate I'd say the number is far higher than 1 in 7 Americans who indirectly rely financial institutions for employment.

The last time the govt bailed out an automaker, Chrysler, they came back with a vengeance.

#54 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

You can't be serious if they came back with such a vengeance why are they back asking for another handout. Are we going to do this every 30 years?

"Saftey standards are higher here, which causes a weight increase."

#75 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Yes and no. Safety standards are different. Kinda akin to the differences between Canadian football and American football. Essentially the same game, but slightly different rules and a slightly different playing field.

"Pollution standards are also higher here in the US."

Again, yes and no. 50% of the passenger cars purchased in Europe are diesels. Granted, the diesel sold in Europe is slightly more noxious than the US flavor, but the standard is stiffening and the Euro auto makers are responding. Personally, I think diesel owners, especially the truckers, are getting boned Bit Time on the price of diesel.

"The importation of the SMART car is a good example of the total redesign needed to get the vehicle certified in the US."

It wasn't quiet a total redesign. Tweeked, yes. Still, the Smart is a short commute vehicle. Not a car I would want to commute long distance in.

"If you think you could import a Japanese Kei car into the US, and sell it your dreaming..."

There are a few of examples already nosing under the tent, such as the Scion series, though they are not strictly Kei. More will come. Look at the initial success of the Yugo. Too bad it was junk to begin with. I can dream though, can't I?

They are trying to kill the unions. Whether you like unions or not (I am not in a union) they are the firewall keeping owners from locking you in a room for pennies on the day with no lunch, no vacations, no weekends and you may not be able to even piss (keep a bottle close by).

Have a nice day :0)

So you are all (most of you)itching to pull that trigger, eh? You feeling lucky?

How about this...back away slowly and calm down. If you despise GM, Ford, Chysler, their suppliers, and the people of Michigan in general so much, just sell the auto industry and the state to Canada. Give the Canadian Gov't a nice price, they might just take the whole package off your hands.

We'd be better off here.