They probably offered him free coke for life if he gets them the deal.

No taxpayer money for fat UAW pensions!

WHY????

here is the problem with automakers

just look at FACTS

the big three need MORE help and we just gave them a MEASLY 25 billlion

so why dont the others need help

thats easy.........just look at where the big three are located. in states with NO RIGHT TO work laws and tax bases OUT THE WAZZO

and mercedes is putting in a factory in georgia, I believe is where I read
and there are automakers in texas and tennessee and alabama and georgia WHO DONT NEED This bailout and to ignore the states they are in and reasons they went there is just a liberal method of avoiding the truth.

Can't get to the article. Did they say anything about the fact that Bush is a bit pissed that the meeting particulars were leaked by Obama? Turns out they like to keep those private meetings actually private. Boy, it's gonna be fun watching Obama stumble around as he tries to figure out how to be a president.

The Automakers should help themselves. Let Conyers bail them out

How about we help the big three, but Michigan has to pass a right to work law? That would be great.

MI is a pre-cursor to what the nation will look like after the Dems are finished. Take a close look at Detroit. The economy, the schools, this is what you get when the Dems are in control. Cripe, Obama has Ganholm (sp?) at his side at a lot of these things. That is nuts.

sawdust

include new orleans into that picture.......

and again........I will be interested in reading what some of our liberal bros say about my post
you just cant ignore michigan's tax base and the unions part in all of this
as I said on a post the other day, you cant dismiss unions completely because of what they have done for work places and all

but you also cant ignore how they have costs these businesses as well

and a buddy of mine and I were talking about this
he said, maybe the chrysler buyout of several years ago made this easier to stomach.

interesting

I'm not interested in helping out any industry that outsources jobs. If we were to bail out the auto makers it would be pointless unless we also erect tariffs to protect our market from competitors who use virtual slave labor. We need to make a major policy decision about whether or not we are going to continue with "free but unfair trade."

"They probably offered him free coke for life if he gets them the deal."

Frank,

Well, Dumbo would probably have a keen interest in that kind of a promise. I'll be that the 'Colombian currency' will be well used in the next four years to help 'grease the skids' around the white crib.

"MI is a pre-cursor to what the nation will look like after the Dems are finished."

Huh??? Michigan is what Michigan will look like after 25 years of Reaganomics and Free Trade.

danni.........I really believe you can include reasons I have posted for companies relocating as well as needing this help

why would anyone put a company in michigan or mass with all the taxes and union stuff that they dont have to do even here in texas OR OVERSEAS.......
it doesnt make business sense.........

and oh yeah

mcdonalds and walmarT have posted INCREASES IN EARNINGS while others are going the other way

WHY

no unions maybe??????

"mcdonalds and walmarT have posted INCREASES IN EARNINGS while others are going the other way

WHY"

Perhaps because they pay shit wages.
The companies that both replaced in the market place were much better for working Americans.

Perhaps because they pay shit wages.
So Danni thinks no union mean shit wages.

Toyota, Honda, Saturn would moved away from the hell hole in MI pays good wages and isn't haven't the trouble the Big 3 are.

What is the problem Dunni?

Let them go bankrupt. Blow up the unions. Start over with competitive salary's and benefits. Cut the retirees benefits by 40%.

So Danni thinks no union mean shit wages.

#14 | Posted by slicksterWilly

No, I suspect she meant that McDonalds and WalMart pay shit wages.

Danni, I'm all for a living-wage but didn't I read here in some related post that the average auto-worker wage is $27-$32? If that's true then don't you think something is wrong with this? Aren't they killing their own jobs/industry? I'm looking for a new car myself but the knowledge that I'm supporting those wages is making it difficult to buy that new Jeep I want. (Never mind the gas mileage.)

How come you never hear about any of the employees of these troubled companies taking pay cuts? I once worked for a company that cut everyones wages in HALF! Of course people bailed but for awhile we felt like we were contributing to the company's survival.

And I'm not excluding management either - I think every company that asks for a handout should have salaries slashed proportionally-more the higher up the food chain they are.

National socialism is good as long a feeble attempt is made to pretend that they will make better cars.

"Aren't they killing their own jobs/industry?"

I'll say this, if I were an auto worker I would rather take lower wages and keep my job. I do think that the unions need to accept their share of the blame and make some changes and I probably have not said that before but this country's economy is teetering and we all need to be reasonable or we are all going to suffer.

Perhaps because they pay shit wages.
The companies that both replaced in the market place were much better for working Americans.

what companies were those?

Walmart replaced about 10,000 small businesses.

mcdonalds and walmarT have posted INCREASES IN EARNINGS while others are going the other way

WHY

no unions maybe??????

Low wages, no benefits and no full time jobs-walmart gets about 99% of its stuff from China.

Hell of a way to grow an economy.

The demonization of unions has always been a republican talking point brimming with hypocrisy -- demanding union workers to take cuts, while wall street runs wild, dragging our economy down with their whims as they moan about the possibilities of a 10 percent cut in their bonuses. Many, not all, of the WS movers and shakers wear their flag pins, but have no honor towards country if it impedes in their acquiring of great wealth; those types should be hunted and strung up by their heels in a palazzo until they learn to put country first (Thanks, Mac). That said, yes, the Unions need to take a long hard look at their part, cuts probably should be forthcoming if they want the industry to survive, much less prosper. Yes, the unions share in the blame, no doubt. But the majority of it goes to a simple fact: the product sucks. It doesn't lead in innovation, design, efficiency, quality. Nothing. It's important to buy American, but as long as American stands for quantity over quality, buying American suffers. MAKE BETTER EFFEN CARS!

"Walmart replaced about 10,000 small businesses."

That would be the 10,000 businesses that in other threads (those about inheritance taxes) are the most important, job producing parts of our economy.
Family owned and operated businesses once known as....THE AMERICAN DREAM!
So Sam Walton's kids can be greedy rich SOBs.

no unions maybe??????

Are you suggesting that we unioninze McDonald's workers?

for what possible reason?

Family owned and operated businesses once known as....THE AMERICAN DREAM!

You don't have to convince me of the effects of Walmart on small businesses.....especially in more rural areas of our country.

Sam Walton's kids are the American dream. Being a union member is an american nightmare

MI is a pre-cursor to what the nation will look like after the Dems are finished. Take a close look at Detroit. The economy, the schools, this is what you get when the Dems are in control. Cripe, Obama has Ganholm (sp?) at his side at a lot of these things. That is nuts.

#7 | Posted by sawdust at 2008-11-11 12:44 PM |
after 8 years of jebby here in fla. the schools aren't exactly "stellar", asshat.

bushlicker, if you're still stuck on a new name i have several. however, they would result in dumps.

"Sam Walton's kids are the American dream."

Yeah most Americans dream of marketing Chinese goods and putting millions of other Americans out of work. Most Americans love $$$ more than their own country....not. Sam Walton's kids don't care about their own country...that's a fact.

GM has far more retirees than active workers, and the amount they have to pay those retirees renders them a non-competitor against companies without those obligations regardless of vehicle quality. The same tired line that "GM willfully entered into those contracts," while true, is not an argument for a bailout, in fact, it shows why they should not get one. The only way GM can render itself competitive in today's auto market is to file for bankruptcy and potentially re-negotiate the union contracts that are simply killing the company. Those contracts might have made sense when far more Americans bought American cars, and before GM had the number of retirees it does today. Whether those contracts are a result of a lack of foresight by GM or a desire to "worry about it later" should not leave American taxpayers holding the bag. We are not co-signers on every bad loan and bad contract entered into by American businesses.

The argument for bailing out the banks was that our economy would grind to a halt without them. No such argument can be made for GM, or any American automaker. Cars will continue to be produced and sold right here in America by other companies.

Incredibly poorly run companies. Terribly, terribly run companies. Sure, save 'em. It makes so much sense.

time to pay back the unions.

The privacy policy at BarackObama.com includes this sentence: "We may also make personal information available to organizations with similar political viewpoints and objectives, in furtherance of our own political objectives.

just a little aside and does anyone have a problem with that policy?

It is so great that Obama "leaks" a confidential meeting between him and George Bush. Obama is a real piece of crap. He has no ethics at all. How can this turd expect Republicans or world leaders to deal with him when he breaks his word runs off like a little beotch and snitches to the press? Obama is little POS snitch.

What Obama and the looney left don't realize is that the main reason the auto industry is in such dire circumstances is because of their expensive unions and their health care packages and pensions which add thousands to the cost of a car making them less competitive with foreign manufacturers. Don't blame poor management. Don't blame unions. Just blame Bush. If this is the genius we can expect from the great Obama, this nation is truly doomed.

I don't have that much of a problem with a loan to any of the big companies as long as the terms of the loan are fair to the tax payers i.e. favorable interest rate, sufficient collateral, etc.

"What Obama and the looney left don't realize is that the main reason the auto industry is in such dire circumstances is because of their expensive unions and their health care packages and pensions which add thousands to the cost of a car making them less competitive with foreign manufacturers."

Oh, and we all thought it was because they are still building unsellable SUVs, large autos, etc. and that the Japanese and Germans have brought us far superior products.My daughter drives a Honda Odyssey...no American manufacturer has anything even half as good. My Mini Cooper has no competition from America. I will admit the unions have gotten a bit greedy but still management is responsible for the poor product lines and poor mileage of most of their cars.

Perhaps because they pay shit wages.
The companies that both replaced in the market place were much better for working Americans.

#13 | Posted by danni

When the big three go tits up, they will realy pay "shit wages" and they you and I will end up paying all the bennies they gave to their UAW employes for the next 50 years. I guess you are rich so it won't matter to you.

"I don't have that much of a problem with a loan to any of the big companies as long as the terms of the loan are fair to the tax payers i.e. favorable interest rate, sufficient collateral, etc."

No loan to GM will be favorable to the taxpayers, because GM's business model ensures that the cash will disappear and will not be paid back. They currently only have an ability to lose money - something they will continue to do until they file for bankruptcy and re-negotiate their contracts with pensioners.

Further, if GM had sufficient collateral for the loans they need, they wouldn't be begging the United States for money. What would the US take as collateral on $30B plus of loans? Factories? I wonder what our place in line with other creditors would be with regard to those assets.

"I guess you are rich so it won't matter to you."

Sniper, read the thread, I'm not exactly cheering for a bailout or for us to pick up the tab for those retirement benefits. I don't have a pension and I would deeply resent having to fund theirs.
As Joe says, we could call it a loan but it won't really be a loan...think gift.

I wonder what our place in line with other creditors would be with regard to those assets.

As with any loan, a decision would have to be made as to whether or not there is sufficient available collateral to make the loan and whether or not GM has the ability to repay the loan. Otherwise, the loan shouldn't get made.

GM may be asking the US for loans because the interest rate they would have to pay on the open market would be very high.

Think what you want. GM will be out of cash in a matter of weeks, and only a fool would give them any more of it. Banks know that. The US government does too, but they don't care.

For 25 years the UAW has been sucking the life blood out of the big 3, Detroit and Michigan, and the voters of Michigan somehow think that the UAW has their best interest at heart..amazing. Now that those corpses have dried up. like a flock of rabid vampire bats, they begin their migration east to DC to begin feeding off the rest of us as Washington helps them by exposing our necks..when will Michigan look at the UAW and say..Thanks for destroying our state for your greed. And lefties remember GM, FORD and CHRYSLER are "greedy corporations"..don't go wobbly on us just because a union is involved..

remember "greedy corporation=republican"

And lefties remember GM, FORD and CHRYSLER are "greedy corporations"..don't go wobbly on us just because a union is involved..

I'm sure they won't disappoint.

"No Way he wants to make a deal. He's willing too let millions of autoworkers lose their jobs so he can have the Free Trade Agreement with Columbia and ship some more US Jobs overseas. So Bush is willing to let our country hang out and dry while he is spreading out the wealth overseas. Mr Bush you are the the most inept President ever."

"Free Trade Agreement with Columbia(sic)"

F in geography flag

"My daughter drives a Honda Odyssey...no American manufacturer has anything even half as good."

until the first time you come into contact with their glass transmissions. Or put the pedal down and wonder if it even has an engine.

"My Mini Cooper has no competition from America."

Ugliness is not a quality that is very sought after in America. But seriously what is the purpose of that car? It is definitely not a sporty car, it is too small for a family or even a full sized adult. It fuel economy is ok, but you have to give up too much power to get it and you might as well be driving a geo metro. I mean the thing is slower then a mid nineties Taurus and hell of a lot uglier too.
Would someone please explain their appeal?

By the way direct competition would be the cobalt and focus both look better are faster and get just about the same economy.

Danni I hate to break it to you, but McDonalds is doing well because they sell more overseas then in America.

how DARE they? Maybe you'd shut them down, or advocate government take-over...or wait...that's it, TAX them into bankruptcy?

How would you deal with forgn. comapnies doing biz in the US danni? Put them out of biz, and all their US employees out of work? Tax US companies that "out source" more then those that don't...thereby giving financial advantage to forg. companies? What IS a forg, company what is not? Would you say where their headquaters was located? Or where they were chartered, or were they do their most sales???

Do you think ANY company can operate in their own country without using forg. products or making forg. sales????

You have no idea how the world economies work, and I challenge you to articulate a sensible approach to the most basic of biz concepts I've mentioned!

Next why don't you address what YOU would do with all those buildings that pesky frgn companies own. Or those biz's that have sold stock to frgn interests?

The dr left SHOUTED about selling ports to Dubia, and now all shipping interests have sold off 85%++ percent. Check the baltic dry shipping index, dudette. We could have sold them at sky high prices...get it WE could have sold them. And now that they have tanked, and ships can't sail and are being tied to docks unused, WE couldn't give them away at a fair price.

Was kind of funny how barack admired all of China when the Olympics were occurring, you know their great infrastructure, their buildings, their factories, their trains and their ports.

Just kindly overlook the fact that the Chinese sold their ports to Dubia, please.!!!!

This whole thread is just full of bullshit drivel....

Honda, Toyota, Kia and more are built in the US. The HHR junk POS is built in Mexico.

chevy=mexico. wtf?

Tax US companies that "out source" more then those that don't

No. What you do is increase the tariffs on the goods and services that are brought into the country. Yes, there will be a trade war but eventually, this will be another war that the US will win. This nonsense about free trade is a ruse that corporations have invented to allow their off-shored products and services to come back into the country at little or no cost thereby avoiding the "high labor costs" here in the US.

That was a good strategy as long as a very small number of companies was doing it; it gave them a competitive advantage. Now that every company that can is doing it, it has wrecked our economy because the number of well paying jobs has decreased substantially. There would be no mortgage crisis and therefore no follow on crisises if enough people had well paying jobs which would allow them to pay their mortgage!

It is not enough just to fix the financial institutions. What good is it to have a viable financial industry if people can't afford to purchase products and services that generate the financial transactions for these institutions to process?

The Dems are right to focus on jobs. Jobs, Jobs and more Jobs.

Bailing out automakers is the same as bailing out banks. Giving or loaning money to coporations is corporatism and is a HUGE part of the problem that we have in this country. Corporations have to be allowed to fail. The fact is that our automakers suck. They had every opportunity to think long-term and produce energy efficient cars, but they though short-term and made SUVs. They just can't compete except when it comes to trucks.

The government should institute single payer healthcare asap. This in itself would unburden the US auto industry from the huge obligations and allow the industry to play on a more level playing field.This is a win win for everyone and is not a bailout.

I don't consider a loan a bail out. When a loan is extended, there has to be a reasonable expectation that it is going to be repaid; with interest. If there is no reasonable expectation that the loan is going to be repaid (with interest) then it would be a bailout and should not be done.

Obama: More Chicago thug politics trying to strong-arm Bush. And why?

Well, Obama is thinking of working class Americans! Yeah, Obama's gonna bring Detroit to a city near you, where a GM jobsbank program can destroy your industry too!

Oh happy day!

Why should we bail them out? Honda, Toyota and Kia seem to be doing well being non unionized.

Honda just built a new plant to make Civics in Indiana.

Maybe the US automakers need restructuring and quit paying all the high pensions and start working on smaller more efficient cars.

Honda just built a new plant to make Civics in Indiana.

Maybe the US automakers need restructuring and quit paying all the high pensions and start working on smaller more efficient cars.

Talk about ignorant.

Well, how many Ford, GM, and dodge plants are in japan? In Korea?

How many Fords, GM, Dodge's are allowed to be sold in those same countries?

You look at what you think is the problem and spout out but never realize the actual problem.

Go back to school and learn a little about production and trade.

$War,

You cite S. Korea and Japan but make no mention of Europe or Australia.

Some of GM's best products are sold only in the European market. Same is true for Ford in Australia.

Another point regarding Japan and S. Korea - acreage. Japan in particular just doesn't have any more room for new development.

Speaking of Honda. WTF is wrong with those people. I keep seeing those fugly looking unibody pick ups of theirs and gotta wonder. Who fucking designed those things. I mean really. If You put in anything of any weight to it You're liable to spring the cab and the bed all at once. Just like those older ford snub noses. You put too much in the bed of those things You sprung the whole thing and that includes the doors as well. Who thought up that stupid idear??

Larry

Jeff J.,

I came at those countries that have great restrictions and large market for the same competing product.

Our auto industry has problems here on their own terms but that is not causing the problems they are having today.

Our government and its wish for consumer choice is causing the unequal balance of fair trade and will destroy those industries unless something is done to equalize the trade barrier.

I find it interesting so many have super opinions as to the problem but don't understand the basic profitable idea of beginning and maintaining a production product.

The companies that both replaced in the market place were much better for working Americans.

#13 | Posted by danni at 2008-

HOLD YOUR WATER HERE BABY because I am going to agree with you

my dads auto parts store was a victim of kmart and walmart selling stuff for the same price that he bought it from his distributor so I have a personal experience with them and there are small towns all over the country who have town circles and business who are hurting because of a walmart on the by-pass so I dont disagree with you here

but it was also a fact of business life
why should a customer pay that much more in one place than the other
of course in the case of my dads store he knew EVERYTHING about car parts and all that so there was a real sense of taking care of his customers, but in the end...........price won out

so I understand your point

Let them go bankrupt. Blow up the unions. Start over with competitive salary's and benefits. Cut the retirees benefits by 40%.

#14 | Posted by slicksterWilly

now please remember that I am writing this from the letters to editor of houston chronicle and this person said that he got this info off line but it seems logical.......

ford and GM and chrysler pay thier ASSEMBLY LINE PEOPLE.........when you add up hours and benefits.

72 DOLLARS an hour

and when the same is done for toyota and nissan the workers make 46 dollars an hour

now 72 bucks an hour to work on an assembly line is a pretty nice chunck dont you

and AGAIN.......if his info is correct and the number included benefits.........

and you know for a meeting between these two with NO aides or reporters or anyone taking notes

we sure KNOW a hell of a lot about what they talked about dont we?????

maybe these leaks are from the same obamamanics who are denying contact with hamas......and cant get thier stories straight

here is a great post from a poster to the houston chronicle yesterday

he said that he wanted to wait on the bailout so that he could start a company and
produce lower quality product
gets less milage than foreign imports
a design noone wants
and he and investors overextend themselves
and then become important enough to be indepensible

and THEN HE can get his bailout money too........