How backwards can this get. We are at a time where we need to educate our population for this country to succeed and our educational institutions are going to raise the costs to decrease the availability of people to attend the institutions.

We are shooting ourselves in our own foot and causing our own country's decline in all aspects of society.

This rational free market is certainly showing how rational it can be in downing our country.

That's fucking stupid Man. I mean hell what is some poor sap supposed to do when He gets laid off from some place and wants to get an education so He can compete for another job but can't cause the cost of tuition and books are going through the roof. Talk about insanity. I mean hell the School systems including colleges and Unis should be the LAST places to hike their fees. What utter rubbish.

Larry

Rising college costs coupled with the economic downturn also have more students lining up for financial help. The popular federal Pell Grant Program, which serves low-income students, received almost 800,000 more applications in the first seven months of this year than during the same period last year -- the largest jump ever in that time period, according to the Department of Education. Officials are warning that Congress may need to budget an additional $6 billion next year for the program.

So more and more families are making less and less money and trying to get aid so their children can get through college and what do college do, raise the price.

Talk about regressing our country in the name of profits.

America, soon to be more uneducated than 3rd world nations like india. Capitalistic rational for a nation at its finest.

Something is very wrong with the whole college situation.

Back in '72 when I started college, it cost me around $3,000 to attend for a year, room, board, tuition, books. I had a jobe pouring iron at the Motor Wheel foundry in Lansing (MI) and was making $7.25 an hour. Working 10 hour shifts 6 days a week I was able to save almost $3,500 in the summer and pay for college.

My youngest is now a junior as MSU (Michigan State). His room, board, tuition, books will run north of $21,000 this year. I do not care what job he gets in the summer, he cannot make enough to pay for next year's' college. In fact, he sill makes around $8.00 an hour and can save about $3,000 in a summer. So something is off here.

I am not sure why college costs have outpaced wages. But we need to look at how we can reduce the cost of college.

Sawdust,

Your figures are real similar to mine except my youngest will be about 26,000 this year.

I have two at universities this year and will be struggling to get them through even while they both work full time jobs.

The educational aspect of our nation is falling in the same aspects as our healthcare system and will just force our country farther and farther behind in the growing nature of world economics.

In the article I posted about infrastructure one can clearly see congress has nothing in the future as to protecting our workforce to keep up with affording our younger generations from getting a quality education.

We are doing it to our selves and what really makes me pissed off is the republican side of the economy doesn't seem to care.

"My youngest is now a junior as MSU (Michigan State). His room, board, tuition, books will run north of $21,000 this year. I do not care what job he gets in the summer, he cannot make enough to pay for next year's' college. In fact, he sill makes around $8.00 an hour and can save about $3,000 in a summer. So something is off here."

no kidding...though making $7.20 an hour was good money in 1972 ~ I was by then going for the $6 an hour jobs in Yellowstone Park for my future educational needs.

I ended up making $5 an hour during the summer doing construction for a while at Big Sky, Montana before borrowing $1000 from the Fed Gov that winter to go finish my college career at Montana State.

Personally, if I was to do it again...I would have gotten an education here first.

At least here they offer to reimburse you if you don't make 3 times the first year's tuition in one year's time:>)

Bani,

Your older than I thought, older than I and I didn't expect that.

In the 70's I earned minimum wage of 1.35 per hour and was on cloud nine like that was a great wage. I fished in alaska during the summers to pay my way through school. Made about 100 dollars a day and thought I was rich.

How is it that the universities think they should be able to charge more than the current increase of inflation, how backwards is that. Oops, they are the educators and are keeping their financial with real inflation. Wages are not.

Maybe we should do the opposite. College education seems to be the only industry on planet earth immune to the realities of the economy. Why are costs going UP, when the costs of everything else are going DOWN?

Home prices, gold, stocks, business value, gasoline--heading down. But as long as the US government stands ready to cut checks to any college who raises prices, why shouldn't they?

Spaces are needed for foriegn students who pay more, or did until the dollar collapsed. They also get priority placement in high demand classes, since they're foriegners.

Funny, when economy is good the tuition and costs go up and when it's bad they go up - guess academia makes out no matter what.

I have the answer to the financial woes! Stop conserving gas! States are soooo dependent upon foreign oil to make sure their programs run. Already, there are hiring freezes and cuts in government programs (psst. it's a dirty little secret that our government(s) are the real whores of foreign oil). It will only get worse with conservation.

On a side note, it is nice to see gas in the 2.3x price range again.

It is a global market, and the quality of the college education that one can get in the USA is still as good or better than much of the rest of the world.

You want to treat education just like any other commodity RiR, then we should just send all of the college students in America over to India, and China for school. It would be a lot cheaper, right? Hopefully it would help the bottom line of some corporate stocks. And then we could just import all of the educated people we need to run our companies.

I am not sure why college costs have outpaced wages. But we need to look at how we can reduce the cost of college.

#4 | Posted by sawdust

Because in the decades that America was blue collar, college education was not necessary to earn a good living. Graduate from high school go to work on a production line, earn a decent wage with good benefits and retire wiht a pension.

Now a college degree is necessary if you want to live above poverty level. So demand has outstripped supply. Of course the institutions are going to raise prices faster than inflation.

It will not reverse itself until there are a) more colleges and universities or b) a decent living can be earned without a degree.

I don't how many new colleges are being started every year, but I doubt it is many.

But as long as the US government stands ready to cut checks

Yeah sure. Compare the amount of federal and state aid growth per student with the growth in tuition and get back to us.

Now a college degree is necessary if you want to live above poverty level. So demand has outstripped supply. Of course the institutions are going to raise prices faster than inflation.

I'll have to do some research on this again but from what research I did a couple of years ago this is not correct.

Only 30% of our nation graduates from 4 years of college and has been this way since the 40's.

COllege should be free for everyone and it should be easier to be admitted.

Professors could work for free on a volunteer basis, staff too.

Classes could be held outside or at bus stops.

Or college could just be done over the internet. Then the only tuition would be for electrons or photons.

The boomer generation enjoyed a good economy and low or even free tuition BECAUSE our parents were willing to pay the taxes required even if they were wealthy and were taxed at a high rate. Today those same boomers are selfish and unwilling to pay the taxes our parents did and our kids and grandkids will suffer for it. I think they will remember our generation not as the Greatest but as the Greediest.

"Or college could just be done over the internet. Then the only tuition would be for electrons or photons."

FF, FreddyK

My brother (one of them) is a university prof. His salary is decent but nothing to get excited about.

Fact is, with all the financial given out to students, U's run at a loss, offset only by their endowments, which have been plumped up by smart money managers.

But now colleges face the same realities as the rest of the Wall St. investors - huge losses in their nest eggs, and that's going to make it very tough for them to give the same aid packages to even their most worthy students.

This is where a little socialism could go a long way. If it's good enough for the fat cat bankers, it's good enough for our kids.

My daughter's tuition is 45,000 bucks a year, including room and board.

No way could I afford that without generous financial aid.

But her school has taken a hit in their endowment, no doubt. Unless of course they put it all into cash a month ago. Not.

Danni is right - it's gonna be taxes put to the right use - not war - that will partially help save our educational system.

The last thing a college grad needs is to be shouldered with $150,000 of debt.

Most billionaires never went or at least never graduated from college. Making money early and independently can lead to a richer future than college. College is about having a more interesting career.

This is another one of thoes supply and demand things. There are way too many people going to college for the number of colleges there are. We already have way too many lawyers and not enough fruit pickers.

FF, Snipper!

It's true, more kids go to college these days than ever before.

It's also true that very talented, smart, capable kids from inner cities are getting college educations, who at one time couldn't. I know a few from my stints of teaching/directing in the South Bronx.

I'd always err on the side of too much education rather than too little. Life will take care of the wheat/chaff thing.

We already have way too many lawyers and not enough fruit pickers.

#23 | Posted by Sniper

Well I think that problem will be remedied when a fruit picker can earn the same as a lawyer.

Republicans figure it's cheaper to let engineers from India immigrate to the US bringing their education with them than it is to educate Americans to do those jobs.
Republicans wave flags and wear flag pins but don't really love America. To love America you have to care about Americans.

Republicans wave flags and wear flag pins but don't really love America. To love America you have to care about Americans.

Posted by danni at 2008-10-30 11:30 AM | Reply

You got that correct Danni. They care about the bottom line they don't give a fuck about the average Joe. AMEN on that.

Larry

Does anybody know the Irish model? How is Ireland able to provide a free college education to all? Obviously they've made a commitment, and the Irish economy has benefited tremendously.

"Republicans figure it's cheaper to let engineers from India immigrate to the US bringing their education with them than it is to educate Americans to do those jobs."

If you believe this Danni then you are really a dumb bag of shit. There is a shortage of 'qualified' engineers around the world (In every field and industry). Technology has driven way past the means of education and still our schools teach more arts than they do sciences. Most schools still rely on Macs because the pc's are too complicated for the educators to handle. Look at the O&G industry - this slow economy may have just given many companies a chance to continue as a going concern until the education system can catch up and train new petroleum engineers as the current ones may have to stave off early retirement for a few more years.

"There is a shortage of 'qualified' engineers around the world (In every field and industry)."

So dumbass why not subsidize the education of engineers right here in the good old US of A???
I'm sure there are many capable but economically disadvantaged students who would gladly accept scholarships.

2F4U, Schools don't choose what degree a student gets, the student does. The fact that there is a shortage of engineers tells you that the market has decided not to pay engineers enough. An engineering degree is a difficult series of courses, relative to say a business degree. When engineers are paid and given opportunity commiserate with the degree, then the shortage will end.

"So dumbass why not subsidize the education of engineers right here in the good old US of A???
I'm sure there are many capable but economically disadvantaged students who would gladly accept scholarships."

#30 | Posted by danni

IMHO, you do not realize that an engineering course load is too difficult for most people.

Engineers are paid very well by most standards... An accountant out of College is only going to be in the mid 20's with no experience but a EE with software emphasis will easily clear 50+.

2F4U, I don't deny that engineers make decent salaries, but that is not really what I was saying. It is not if the salary is enough to live on, it is if the salary makes up for the difficulty of the degree. In the case of engineers the current pay rate is not enough of an incentive to become and engineer. The market has spoken.

SCHMANCH - It's a problem with the school systems prior to college. Engineering is hard work and tough math and reasoning whereas Accounting and Business Degrees are just about knowing where the numbers go. Our children are no longer challenged and educators in general are LAZY and complacent! We need to raise teacher salaries in order to attract the best and brightest if we want to survive!

Danni - this one's for you:

Going to watch Barry slide in the polls some more. Enjoy the rest of your day - except you Danni - I hope you fall down some stairs and shit yourself the entire way down. Nah, I'm just kidding. Have a blessed day... :)

That is the one thing that turned me off from the Obama's . I spent 22 years sleeping in the mud and eating things that would make a billy goat puke, tho spend 12 years going to school at night to get a 4 year degree. And these two go to TWO Ivy league schools on MY DIME and then complain about how hard it was to pay back..Basically whining they had to pay it back at all. You know there are other options to going to college, The Militrary pays 80 percent of your tuition. Now I understand that most people who vote for Obama Loathe the military. So there are other options, you can work your way throguh college, But again, I understand most people who vote for Obama Loathe work..But Please stop whining..There are other options besides getting your degree in America Hating on My dime

Going to watch Barry slide in the polls some more.

#36 | Posted by 2fast4u

YEAH!

Oh...

"There are other options besides getting your degree in America Hating on My dime"

Unlike you HILLBILLY most of us didn't take America Hating but apparently you got yourself a Masters degree in it. You have got to be one of the most hateful of all DR posters.

engineering school is tough

MBA school is a cakewalk

but the MBA earns more

EXACTLY!!! That is my point. Thank you Nutcase.

And look what all those high paid MBA's did for the economy.

IMHO, you do not realize that an engineering course load is too difficult for most people.
#32 | Posted by FreddyK

True - A large portion of people in my Liberal Arts program were there for one reason only: they couldn't make it in the Engineering program. Two years of advanced calculus, a year of diffEQ, some materials classes, physics, chem 1,2, and 3, etc. are just too difficult for a majority of people - especially those who go to college to pick up chicks, drink, and have a good time (which explains another large portion of my program!)

Another reason colleges start to charge more in a bad economy is that a portion of their budgets are made up of wealthy alumni donating to their alma maters. Bad economy means lower donations, and the schools have to make up for the shortfall.

Boo hoo poor colleges. They raise tuition in good times and bad. Its interesting that when gas prices, food prices, car prices, home prices and other categories fall in bad economic times but college tuition just keeps rising. I just wish the liberal Democrat powers-that-be hold hearings on tuition prices just like they did with gas prices. But liberal Democrats are in the tank from colleges and universities because that is where a big slice of their support comes from.

"Boo hoo poor colleges. They raise tuition in good times and bad. I just wish the liberal Democrat powers-that-be hold hearings on tuition prices just like they did with gas prices. But liberal Democrats are in the tank from colleges and universities because that is where a big slice of their support comes from.
#44 | Posted by utastaff at 2008-10-30 05:03 PM"

Uh, numbnuts, pay attention: When it comes to "public education" at "public colleges and universities," check out what state legislatures (typically those run by GOPiggies) have done to those institutions.

Here's a crash course for you: Slash the percentage of the state contribution to "state institutions" in comparison to the overall cost of operating them. (Because you've also reduced taxes so you haven't got the money you need to operate a modern government.) So what do those institutions do to pay staff and faculty, keep the lights turned on, and make sure the kiddiwinks don't freeze during the winter? Raise tuition.

The public gets screwed, of course, but that's s.o.p. GOPiggy Neanderthalean thinking.

I am still calling for Congress to hold hearings on the skyrocketing tuition costs at colleges and universities. Billions of dollars go to these crooks every year in loans and grants so the public should know why we are getting fleeced. A good education is more important than gas so if Congress can hold hearings on gas prices, they should hold hearings on tuition prices.

Now this is the bush solution and also shows that colleges are not over attendenced but in fact are not getting enough people. It is not too many but too few.

The Bush Administration, however, has now been prompted to action by a series of studies that have shown the severity of the country's dropout crisis. The U.S. is the only industrialized nation in the world where children are now less likely to receive a high school diploma than their parents were, according to an Oct. 23 report by the Education Trust, a children's advocacy group based in Washington.

Now all one has to do is look at the tax structure and the falling of the middle class and one doesn't have to think to hard to see the problems.

The future of our nation is in dire straights and the republicans idea is to either pass them or ignore the issue.

Whast the big deal? If schools were factories they would have closed 25 years ago for putting out unsaleable products.

Whast the big deal? If schools were factories they would have closed 25 years ago for putting out unsaleable products.

Posted by controlledpairs at 2008-10-30 08:05 PM | Reply

Then You would have all kinds of Kids running amock if they did close the schools.

Larry

What are you talking about larry. They will never close schools in this country. They will continue to corrupt the minds of our youth who cant read and write upon High School graduation,truly sad.

Factories that make products that are not saleable will close.

spewing nonsense about the global warming myth, the evil rape of western society by the white man, promoting "mock marriage" and other politically correct secular humanist insane librul bs.

I am glad I sacrificed by going to the mideast to work to put my kid in private school and a good college with a real degree.

controlled,

Why is it you don't feel the need to discuss this with rational thought?

Do you honestly think that this will not be a problem for our nations future?

I am glad I sacrificed by going to the mideast to work

What sacrifice was that?

Do you want a medal or what?

What rational thought? If I dont agree with you I am wrong?

The school system is broken in our country when kids cannot read and write at a 12th grade level upon graduation.

Whats the solution Moneywar?

Mine was to use a private school where the kids are uniformed and focus on education that I agree with.

As far as medals,save that for the heros. I was just a greedy contractor who stayed on the nice safe camps most of the time and ate steak and lobster and made obscene amounts of money.

Thanks for asking.

You were the one whining about your sacrifice.

The public gets screwed, of course, but that's s.o.p. GOPiggy Neanderthalean thinking.

what fucking idiot. Dems have no blame in this? Always repubs?

"Dems have no blame in this? Always repubs?"

Who's driving the ship of state? Who presided over the largest deficits known to man, and spent more money than anyone in history? Who neutered the regulators?

And aside from that, who forced lenders to make 125% LTV loans, interest-only loans, and teaser rate loans? Who then forced them to re-package and re-rate those loans, leveraging bad paper against bad paper?

Did you read the articles about the lenders being leveraged 30:1? Well guess what: the mortgage was the "1".

ABSOLUTELY the Dems deserve blame. How about breaking it down into percentages?

Mine was to use a private school where the kids are uniformed and focus on education that I agree with.

And this will help the ENTIRE nation how?

Who's driving the ship of state? Who presided over the largest deficits known to man, and spent more money than anyone in history? Who neutered the regulators?

He was referring to State legislatures being conrolled by GOP. Which one's?

does he understand how universtities get their funding and what determines how much?

He blanketed all blame on repubs for why universities are having problems. (which they aren't)

Fuck, the University of Kansas recently went over $1 BILLION in their endowment fund and the first thing they did was raise tuition more than any other school in Kansas. Costs are not what drives those tuition increases......reality that they can get that tuition is what does.

ABSOLUTELY the Dems deserve blame. How about breaking it down into percentages?

You can play that worthless futile game Danforth. Not everything is a partisian blame.

what fucking idiot. Dems have no blame in this? Always repubs?

Keep it up, you apparently like what you see.

How do you think mccain is going to look at our school system and make correction?

Do you think we are going to improve it with mccain as president?

I don't know about you but this issue is going to be glaring in a few years if we don't take it head on and bite a few bullets to solve our education and to do that it can't be rich benefit poor hope for more droppings.

We are talking about this nations future, and we need clear thinking in correcting this FOR ALL OUR PEOPLE.

And this will help the ENTIRE nation how?

#60 | Posted by moneywar

Your turn. I gave you a solution lets hear yours.

"You can play that worthless futile game Danforth. Not everything is a partisian blame."

Translation: Republicans deserve more blame than I'm willing to admit.

control,

You did not give a solution but if that is your rational I won't waste my time.

National thinking is hard werk, afraid your not interested in looking at this issue and stop playing political games.

This will effect our nations future and rhetorical talking crap will never get cross ideas of political thought.

How many private schools are in Watts? How many are in any of the low economic blighted areas of our inner cities?

The schools are failing because they are being ignored, people who should be concerned with this are instead concerned with how much profit they can get if they move it to a certain direction.

Sometimes profit isn't and shouldn't be the motivator, the stake holders is the nation.

Translation: Republicans deserve more blame than I'm willing to admit.

whatever.

Take the low road Danforth if you want.

Mr Independent.

How do you think mccain is going to look at our school system and make correction?

According to Mr IndependentDanforth I must think McCain will save it because I can't admit that repubs fail.

:-(

To answer....I don't. Which is why I am not voting for him.

College is costly for the non affirmative action candidates.

G0bama! He will end affirmative action!

"Mr Independent."

I'm for a balanced budget. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for a strong military. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for equal rights for everyone. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for a fair tax code. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for workers' rights. Which party do I belong to?

More to the point: Have these Republicans given us the worst governance you've ever experienced or not?

Are you for "a" fair tax code or "the fair tax?"

Uh, numbnuts, pay attention: When it comes to "public education" at "public colleges and universities," check out what state legislatures (typically those run by GOPiggies) have done to those institutions.

The public gets screwed, of course, but that's s.o.p. GOPiggy Neanderthalean thinking.

Doc posts this shit and blames all university funding problems on repubs and I simply point out that is horseshit.

Not stumping for any republican in that assertion Danforth and you accuse me of such.

You jump on me and take no issue with Doc.

You are NOT INDEPENDENT Danforth. I don't care but stop asserting that you are.

I'm for a balanced budget. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for a strong military. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for equal rights for everyone. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for a fair tax code. Which party do I belong to?

I'm for workers' rights. Which party do I belong to?

I don't care.

But you aren't independent.

Don't blame me for what YOU post.

Have these Republicans given us the worst governance you've ever experienced or not?

It is pretty bad.

I guess you think that gives you an excuse for not being independent and yet assert that you are.

"Are you for "a" fair tax code or "the fair tax?""

Whatever the fuck that means.

How about paying teachers more than garbage collectors, That would be a start.I mean trash collecting is a fairly unattractive job but it should not pay more than those who shape the minds(pollute mostly now)of our most precious commodity.

Looking at this problem within the nation and Joe is worried about how the taxes will be.

It seems we have gone down that road for 30 years now and that beloved tax system you like so well doesn't seemed to be working and the sooner you accept this the faster we as a nation can begin to correct the major problems we face.....LIKE EDUCATION FOR OUR FUTURE.

As long as people think education is polluting the minds of our young people because they are worried about their future profits, education will continue to decline.

As long as people think education is polluting the minds of our young people because they are worried about their future profits, education will continue to decline.

#77 | Posted by moneywar

Taking gradeschoolers to a gay wedding,like mayor Newsome presided over in San Francisco , is polluting thier minds.Promoting a political agenda , gay rights. What the fuck are they doing going to a wedding anyway when they should be learning thier timestables?

Bani,

Your older than I thought, older than I and I didn't expect that.

In the 70's I earned minimum wage of 1.35 per hour and was on cloud nine like that was a great wage. I fished in alaska during the summers to pay my way through school. Made about 100 dollars a day and thought I was rich.

How is it that the universities think they should be able to charge more than the current increase of inflation, how backwards is that. Oops, they are the educators and are keeping their financial with real inflation. Wages are not.

#8 | Posted by moneywar

Well, I made the sae minimum wages working for Hamilton Stores in Yellowstone Park at first & they made us pay $300 for room & board ~ but I moved on after honoring their 'contract' for a season:>)

Tenured Professors certainly have the perfect life don't they!

"Are you for "a" fair tax code or "the fair tax?""

A fairer tax code. The "Fair Tax" is for folks who like being bamboozled.

"I guess you think that gives you an excuse for not being independent and yet assert that you are."

I realize you think I'm a Dem because I rail against the worst governance in my lifetime, and that happens to be the current crop of Republicans. That's understandable. But I used to lean much more right...

The Republican party I used to vote for was fiscally responsible. Not these so-called Republicans.

The Republican party I used to vote for believed in staying out of people's lives. Not these so-called Republicans.

The Republican party I used to vote for never mixed religion with politics. Not these so-called Republicans.

The Republican party I used to vote for never believed the opposing party were traitors. Not these so-called Republicans.

In the last election, I voted the 'traditionally Republican' position on two of three issues.

To top it off, I was initially considering voting for The Maverick. He was one of two (RG the other) I was hoping would emerge, since the Dem Congress is a certainty, and I believe the best form of government is gridlock. Unfortunately, The Maverick got lost somewhere, and a Bush clone took his place. No thanks.

I voted for Jack Danforth and I voted for Bill Clinton. I'd vote for either again. Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrow definition of an Independent.

"How about paying teachers more than garbage collectors, That would be a start.I mean trash collecting is a fairly unattractive job but it should not pay more than those who shape the minds(pollute mostly now)of our most precious commodity."

So become a teacher or STFU.

Danforth,

I haven't ever seen this side of you, I kind of like it.

I realize you think I'm a Dem because I rail against the worst governance in my lifetime, and that happens to be the current crop of Republicans. That's understandable. But I used to lean much more right...

Danforth, I don't think you are a dem. If I did, I would have said that.

Who you pull a lever for on election day is part of what makes you an independent but I think when you take a non partisian issue and make it partisian.......then you are not thinking like an independent. You are thinking like buffalobob and danni.

they are not independent.

and I believe the best form of government is gridlock.

that is more like an independent. We agree on that.

"I realize you think I'm a Dem because I rail against the worst governance in my lifetime, and that happens to be the current crop of Republicans. That's understandable. But I used to lean much more right..."

Eberly ~ I thinky you miss his point....