Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, October 27, 2008

An 8-year-old boy in Westfield, Mass., died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair. Witnesses told police that Christopher Bizilj lost control of a fully automatic UZI he was shooting under the supervision of range officers at the club "when the self-inflicted accidental shooting occurred."

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Huh, turns out that guns kill people who happen to be near them?
Who knew?

What kind of retard would let an 8 year old fire an Uzi?

An NRA Member, gun totin', repub luvin' reich-wing looney as a moosellini, dumbshit who has guns soooo much on his brain-he can't pick his head up off the floor-all that steel in it....

shouldn't their be age limits on firing a gun. Maybe 15 or so?

Darwin Award Winner number 37,897,746

Someone allowed his 8 year old son to fire an Uzi, which resulted in his death and I am supposed to feel some sort of compassion?

He shot himself in the head?

Good.

One less Gas Station attendant in the world.

Trust me, we didn't lose a cancer cure here folks.

His father should feel the guilt for the rest of his life.

What a stupid fucking human being.


Darwin Award Winner number 37,897,746

Wrong.

Darwin awards are not awarded in cases such as this. The child isn't the one who did something dumb. He is dead because someone else was stupid.

They also aren't awarded to people who have already managed to pollute the gene pool.

Learn the rules of the Darwin Awards prior to putting your foot in your mouth.

www.darwinawards.com

"Darwin Award Winner number 37,897,746"

Unfortunately, his 8yr old son was chosen to accept the award.

the kid was 8. He was probably stoked getting a chance to play GI Joe. The father was a moron. This is like letting an 8 yr old drive.

Listen, I taught both my daughters to shoot, (youngest is now ten) I own several rifles and a few guns and they have shot most of them.

However, even with my semi-autos I took precautions such as only loading a few shells at most (to keep from them rocking back).


This is truly a horribly sad story and should be a lesson that firearms are not toys, even in the hands of the experienced!

Who will be the first to say that the 8 year old's
right to shoot an Uzi is protected by the Second
Amendment.

I'm a liberal who believes people should have the
right to own a gun with a permit, but I do not
understand why a peron needs to own an automatic weapon. Not to mention handing it over to a child.

Can we be really sure he wasn't shot by a black Obama supporter?
After all, they used an jewish gun just to enhance anti-sematism.

Your Friendly But Seriously Delusional GOP.


......too bad he didn't take his gun-loving father with him, and really do the gene pool a favor......

"Who will be the first to say that the 8 year old's right to shoot an Uzi is protected by the Second Amendment."

My guess is you are the only moron who will bring that up.

Very sad. Someone should be charged with criminal negligence in cases such as these. Or at least get a firm "talking to" from the ghost of the "from my cold dead hands" dude.

"""After all, they used an jewish gun just to enhance anti-sematism."""

I think in this case it was a fully-sematism.

Scooped this comment from the article link:

"dumb idea to let a child shoot something this powerful and deadly. some people don't have the brains they were born with."

just wanted to add, definitely not the kid any more.

i thought fully automatic guns are illegal stateside??

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Jesus Christ. When I was that age, I wasn't allowed to get my hands on anything more powerful than a .22. There is simply too much that can go wrong.

"you'll shoot your eye out" wasn't enough


........guns don't kill 8 year olds.........

.......8 year olds kill 8 year olds..........

So it's illegal for an 8 year old to even enter a bar, but he can enter a gun show and play with a loaded automatic weapon. Not smart.

I don't know whether I'm happy or sad. What color was the kid?

Why would anyone let an 8 year old fire a full automatic? It's nuckun futs

rancis Mitchell, a longtime member and trustee of the club, said he saw the boy's father supporting his son from behind when the accident happened.


Oh I see.

His body wasn't allowed to move back with the recoil and instead the arms went up until the gun was pointed under at his head.

I wonder if his dad realizes, he murderized his kid?

i thought fully automatic guns are illegal stateside??

#19 | Posted by klifferd

They are legal with a special "tax" license. Crawl out from under your rock and read once in a while.

When amateurs fire an automatic, the recoil is taken up by the upper body, specially with a Kalashnikov.

As you fire the gun, it tends to move up.

If you stop the body from moving like in this case, this is what happened.

I bet the fool taught his son to fire it like a pistol? With his arms extended? LOL (you fire an SMG by sticking it close to your ribs).

"Crawl out from under your rock and read once in a while"

well then maybe that bug should crawl out your ass

thats why i posed the question
sorry that you are a dick

Kid's last words were probably, "watch what I can do".

"i thought fully automatic guns are illegal stateside??"


#19 | Posted by klifferd


kliff, see below:


"In May of 1986, certain laws went into effect that made it illegal for 'civilians' to own fully automatic firearms that were manufactured AFTER THAT DATE. Many fully automatic weapons manufactured, registered and tax paid BEFORE MAY, 1986, MAY BE OWNED BY AND SOLD TO INDIVIDUALS. The full-auto guns that may be owned by individuals are called 'transferable'. Some states DO NOT allow machine gun ownership at all, no matter when the gun was made, but many states do."

but I do not
understand why a peron needs to own an automatic weapon. Not to mention handing it over to a child.

#11 | Posted by tiger150

Because the government is allowed to have them.

Too bad their isn't a criminal conduct code relating to stupidity.

"Because the government is allowed to have them."

why can't we own tanks?

How could this be?

Massachusetts is the Gun-Hating Commie Land.....or so the repubs would like you to believe.

What a horrifying incident. Can you imagine being the father, physically standing behind and supporting your young son as he accidentally blows his own head off? That's gotta be a psych trauma for the ages.

btw redneckville

thanks for educated me

thanks sniper for nothing

Can you imagine being the father, physically standing behind and supporting your young son as he accidentally blows his own head off?


He could have just as accidentally blown his dad's head off too.


**** I don't know whether I'm happy or sad. What color was the kid?
....#25 | Posted by 101Chairborne ****

........red all over......

upload.wikimedia.org

The Uzi has been criticized for its open-bolt design. Open bolt, blowback firearms tend to have reduced accuracy, because as the trigger is pulled, the bolt slams forward and hits the breech, interfering with the shooter's aim.

The Uzi was designed to be able to be fired with one hand if its user lost the use of a hand in battle. As a result, in films and video games, many fictional characters are shown with two Uzis, firing one with each hand.

why can't we own tanks?

#34 | Posted by klifferd

No parking spots.

Redneckville,
We're Uzi's restricted under the assault weapons ban that was recently allowed to expire? I'm assuming yes but being as I don't have any interest in owning machine guns (though shooting one is a good time) I don't really keep up on that sorta thing much.

Can you imagine being the father,

#36 | Posted by moder8 a

No I could not possibly imagine being that fucking stupid.

The kid did not know better. The father should have.

***** why can't we own tanks?
#34 | Posted by klifferd
No parking spots.
#41 | Posted by 726 ******

........you can make your own parking spot.......

Quick ban ALL guns!
(sarc)

ew... bet that was a mess to clean up...lil kid skull frags all over the place...chunks a 8 year old grey matter sprayed everywhere... popped eyeballs and teeth... wonder how much was left for the funeral... janitors musta been pissed.


before you get a plexed out about this post I jus wan ta keep things in perspective cause I want guns legal...and you have to be willing to live with the consequenses... no matter how careful you think you are... occasionally this shit happens ta kids who have access to guns... few people's family history is without a story of some kid getting offed accidentally with a firearm... if ya can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen

why can't we own tanks?

#34 | Posted by klifferd

Move to afghanistan. But get AAA coverage- (Afghanistan Armored Association)

the kid was 8. He was probably stoked getting a chance to play GI Joe. The father was a moron. This is like letting an 8 yr old drive.

#9 | Posted by rastaninja

It's more like letting an 8 YO drive a tank-or a fully armed F22 Raptor.

"Though Westfield police said, "it appears the incident was purely accidental,"

Accidental my ass. There's a big different between negligence and an accident. An accident is something that is unexpected. Putting a full auto in the hands of an 8 year and having some thing bad happen is about as much of an accident as me downing a bottle of J.B. at the bar and driving home.

Yeah, I might make it safely but then again I sure wouldn't consider the results to be a surprise if I did not.

Move to afghanistan. But get AAA coverage- (Afghanistan Armored Association)

#47 | Posted by northguy3

Funny but sad flag.....

To me the oddest part of this story is:

"Bizilj is medical director of emergency and critical care at Johnson Memorial Hospital in Stafford."

That is just too ironic and sad.

Accidental my ass. There's a big different between negligence and an accident.


If the dad hadn't been pushing the kid from behind, the 8 year old would've moved back and perhaps tripped.. but he wouldn't have blown his head off. His body would've absorbed the recoil better instead of his arms taking the battering.

With the dad behind him stopping him from moving back, his hands went up and .....

Dad was an idiot and probably never handled SMGs before.

it should be a crime to take an 8 year old to a gun show, much like it's illegal to take an 8 year old into a strip club.

I hope the local prosecutors charge the adult who took the child with felonious child endangering.

I have never used an Uzi... what does it fire usually? 9mm? Is the recoil really that bad?

Never used 9mm either. Only 7.62 necked FMJ.

Only 7.62 necked FMJ.


Which is probably illegal in the US? Not sure.

why can't we own tanks?

#34 | Posted by klifferd at 2008-10-27 02:34 PM | Reply

We should be able to own tanks. The second amendment says the right to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed".

Not allowing us to have tanks sounds like infringement to me.

As to the subject of the thread. This is exactly why I am in favor of people owning guns. They shoot themselves and their family members far more often than they do a bad guy. It helps the gene pool. Giving them a tank now and then would help even more.

Redneckville,
We're Uzi's restricted under the assault weapons ban that was recently allowed to expire?

I don't think so; I believe that a semi-auto version has always been legal in the US. I really have no interest in owning one so I haven't kept up.

Why have one, I have a 9 mm pistol for plinking and if I needed to take something important down I have a 243 that can drive a nail @ 300 yards. The only people who want an Uzi are wanna be wanksters, in my opinion!

OMFG Bwhahahaha Not again Buffalo Bob. Arms means Fire arms NOT a Tank. Oh and besides several people DO own tanks privately so please do try again for You know not what You speak about. Your Myth Busters went to one of those private owners of Tanks when they were doing the telephone book rip test. LMAO too fucking funny.

Larry

"If the dad hadn't been pushing the kid from behind,"

I didn't see anywhere in the article where it says that is what happened.

Great example of WHY the Second Admendment is a MOOT POINT.

There is absolutely NO WAY an individual should be allowed to have the same level of firepower that the government can achieve.

The Second Admendment became irrevelant around the time of the US Civil War.

Before that the weapons the citizens could hold were at a par with the weaponry the government held.

To argue a citizen should be able to have an Uzi because the government has one? They also have nerve war agents and atom bombs. Do you think the average joe should be able to hold THIS?

And it really makes me want to PUKE to see the Conservative Leaning SUPREME COURT trying to become judical activists and ADD rights to the Second Admendment that simply ARE NOT THERE!

The Second Admendment DOES NOT guarantee an individual right to bear arms for self protection as they are trying to interpret it now.

"Though Westfield police said, "it appears the incident was purely accidental,"

Except an accident is a tree falling on you --- this is negligence mostly on the part of the father, but also on the the gun show promoters and the instructor, pure and simple!

Another article:

www.kansascity.com

As the boy fired the Uzi, "the front end of the weapon went up with the backfire and he ended up receiving a round in his head," police Lt. Hipolito Nunez said. The boy died at a hospital.

The boy's father and older brother were also there at the time, a gun club member and school official said. Francis Mitchell, a longtime member and trustee of the club, said he was told the boy's father was supporting his son from behind when the shooting happened.

Although the death appeared to be an accident, officials were investigating.

Why can't I own a nuclear weapon???

Why can't I own a nuclear weapon???


You can own a nukular weapon.

You can't own the Plutonium.


Why can't I own a nuclear weapon???

Posted by danni at 2008-10-27 03:54 PM | Reply

Because Women haven't mastered the art of using a Nuclear Microwave Oven. They know the stove and oven just fine but not the Microwave.

Larry

"Although the death appeared to be an accident, officials were investigating."

Thanks....I was wondering why people were saying that.

Anyway, once again, accident my ass. You have a a person firing a weapon they are not properly trained to use. It's not clear what "supporting his son from behind" means but even if the father was pushing the boy's back forward it just makes it sound that the father was negligent to a greater degree.

Because Women haven't mastered the art of using a Nuclear Microwave Oven.


That makes you a sexist bastard... but one who speaks true. LOL

"The Uzi has been criticized for its open-bolt design. Open bolt, blowback firearms tend to have reduced accuracy, because as the trigger is pulled, the bolt slams forward and hits the breech, interfering with the shooter's aim."

#39 | Posted by Tosser

Weapons of that ilk are little more than terror weapons, designed to blow a butt-load of bullets all over the place in a very short time, keeping everybody's heads down and scaring the crap out of you. Accuracy is a secondary consideration.

Larry Mohr

Sorry champ--those guys didn't know what an Uzi was either. Just because the arms have leapfrogged in devastation, doesn't change what the Constitution says.

"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" is what it says---if you don't like it--change it. But don't read it like an Activist Judge, and have it say what you WANT it to say, or what you THINK it should say. Read what it says. It is very clear for those who understand the English language. The right to keep and bear arms"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

It doesn't give any restrictions like---The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed unless you come up with really big guns.

Read the Constitution. Don't spin it.

Well the good news is the name sounds foriegn.


Why can't I own a nuclear weapon???

#63 | Posted by danni at 2008-10-27 03:54 PM | Reply |


According to our Constitution, you should absolutely be able to own nuclear weapons--and aircraft carriers---and the planes to fill them. The Constitution says we have the right to bear arms, and that that right "shall not be infringed".

#61 | Posted by Redneckville

For once I agree with RedNeck. I've been shooting since I was six. Some weapons aren't meant for even supervised children. You have the strength to control a weapon like that.

It's not clear what "supporting his son from behind" means


It means the kid was not ready to shoot that thing on his own.

I have seen women and men firing Kalashnikovs for the first time. Most can't control it. However, nobody holds them or their arms to help them. That is never done.



even if the father was pushing the boy's back forward it just makes it sound that the father was negligent to a greater degree.


Exactly.

If he hadn't been doing that, the kid might have absorbed the recoil in another way or might have had the time to stop squeezing the trigger before his hands went up to point at his head.

Definitely not a feel-good story. Though, the father was careless and irresponsible for what happened, I can't even imagine the guilt this guy will go thru for the rest of his life. It's a death sentence. You could almost throw up at the thought if it happened close to home.

..."SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"...

You are taking it OUT OF CONTEXT as most GUN NUTS are prone to do.

A gun is not a toy. There are responsible ways to teach your child to fire weaponry. Allowing them to use an UZI is not one of them.

The parents should be shot too.

"It doesn't give any restrictions like---The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed unless you come up with really big guns.

Read the Constitution. Don't spin it."

#69 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

You certainly like to explore the extremes of boobery.

And to add extremely bad taste reading some of your commentary here.

At the time the 2nd was written, the rifled barrel was probably the hottest new tech in weaponry.

When the Gatling gun was invented and evolved into the true machine gun, it was thought that wars would no longer be fought because of the devastating killing power of a single weapon.

When the nuclear weapon was deployed twice and the devastation witnessed, it was thought then that such terrible weapons would never be used again. Since then 10s of thousands have been built.

The writers of the 2nd had no clue where weapons development would lead. A single weapon fired by one man that could kill hundreds on the battlefield? They would have put you away.

You argue for the sake of argument, not from a rational stand. Or perhaps you are simply an idiot.


He shot himself in the head?

Good.

One less Gas Station attendant in the world.
Posted by MANYPATHS

Nice. You just gave up your right to point any fingers at Repubs who say ridiculously callous things. You've also moved up a few pegs on the 'gutless hypocrite' list.

"Why can't I own a nuclear weapon???"

#63 | Posted by danni

You can.
All you need is a few kilograms of U235.

"Nice. You just gave up your right to point any fingers at Repubs who say ridiculously callous things. You've also moved up a few pegs on the 'gutless hypocrite' list.
#78 | Posted by NappyHeadedHo at 2008-10-27 04:33 PM

YEAH!
That's quite an achievement --- considering the height of the bar set by this administration and its supporters!

At the time the 2nd was written, the rifled barrel was probably the hottest new tech in weaponry.
Posted by ZOT

Uh-huh. And at the time the Constitution was written, there were no such things as TV or radio. Or on-line blogs. So the 1st Amendment only protects free speech in newpaper broadsides that get pasted to tavern doors. And everything you say in here makes you subject to arrest.




Monstman

I am not a gun nut, but I agree that the 2nd amendment has been interpreted by Activist Judges who ignore what it says, and instead make it say what they want it to say.

However, the reality is that the Activist Judges have already twisted the meaning of the 2nd amendment as meaning individuals have the right to bear arms---instead of the original meaning of arming a well regulated militia to protect the State from the Federal Government. In light of their "clarification" the meaning of the second amendment becomes clear. Individuals have the right to keep and bear arms, and that right SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Except the Activist Judges don't see that part of the amendment either. They have twisted the second amendment which states.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

and changed it to:

Individuals have the right to bear arms, but that right can be infringed as we see fit.

Zot

What you say doesn't change the FACT that the Constitution says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

If you don't like it--change it. But the FACT is--that's how the Constitution reads--SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED--is about as clear as the English language gets. What part is hard for you to understand?

bOoB continues to invent his own ludicrously stupid (as usual, it's BlUfFalLo bOoB, afterall) interpretation of the second amendment.

One more time, BoOb, from the author of the damned thing: "A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained in arms, is the best most natural defense of a free country."
-James Madison

And while I'm at it:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-Thomas Jefferson

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
-Thomas Jefferson

Ummmmmm Buffalo Bob. The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right of the Individual to keep and bare arms. NOT the State Militia. Back in them days it was a requirement that all Free Able bodied Males to keep a rifle in their homes in case or rebellion/Savages(Indians) and the like. The State militia was made up of these free able bodied men and were called upon when needed. THAT is what the Second Amendment protects. THE INDIVIDUAL not the organization IE the State Militia.

Larry

Zatoichi

And where does it say that the right to bear arms shall be infringed?

Come DUmmY---I missed that part.

The point is--according to the Constitution and the Activist judges who see a well regulated militia as meaning any asshole on the street---the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

To tough to understand little mind?

Wow, although I many times disagree with you both, I have to say in this instance: 'Right on, Zatoichi (#84) and Larry (#85)'.

Fer what?? Pointing out the facts??

Larry

UMMMMM Larry

What does well-regulated mean? You are supposed to use all the words in a sentence. English is tricky that way. So is your point that every citizen was well regulated? Is that what you are saying Binky?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM????

Ummmmmmmmm Buffalo Bob the first 10 Amendments to the US Constitution protects the INDIVIDUAL and not an entity. Just like number 10 says about if nothing is determined with the first 9 amendments then it is left up to the States or the People to decide. So the Second Amendment doesn't protect the State Militia it protects the INDIVIDUAL and their right to keep and bear arms.

Larry


Fer what?? Pointing out the facts??


Larry

No. Fer getting them right for once. ;-)

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Bolded is what the Second Amendment Protects Buffalo Bob. Learn it Live it Love it.

Larry

Hell I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. Ok which came first the States Militia or the People?? If You say tyhe States Militia You are full of shit. How did it appear?? Did God send down the necessary equipment for this States Militia??? Did it just pop up one day and say here. This is Your States Militia?? Or did it require the PEOPLE to form this States Militia?? If it first required the people to form this States Militia don't You think it's silly to State the US Constitution protects an intrument which has not been created yet?? No thats balderdash. It protects the Peoples Right to keep and Bear arms SO THAT THEY MAY MAKE AND CREATE a States Militia. Therefore the Second Amendment protects the PeopleINDIVIDUALLY so they might make up the States Militia and first line of defense. Easy Peasy if You think about it.

Larry

"I missed that part."
-bOoB

You missed a whole lot, shit-for-brains.

I would say OohRah You should be allowed to own the necessary Fire power to defend Your homestead and person. I do not believe You should be allowed to own ICBM's or STAM's Nor Nukes. But Shotguns Rifles and such no problem as long as they are legally obtained and one has the necessary training in such weaponry. If You need more than that then Your City State is under seige and should rely upon Your National Guard. Me personally I would make it Illegal for anyone in My household to own a weapon on My premisses But that is only for My Property only.

Larry


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Bolded is what the Second Amendment Protects Buffalo Bob. Learn it Live it Love it.


Larry

#92 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2008-10-27 05:36 PM | Reply |


The Activist judges ignored the first part of the sentence also. That's what makes them Activist judges. In addition---they--and YOU--ignore the LAST PART of the sentence--SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

Just admit you twist it around and ignore what you like in order to see what you want---just like the Activist Judges that can't read a simple statement in English.

This is what you and the Activist Judges see:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be infringed as we see fit.

You missed a whole lot, shit-for-brains.

#94 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2008-10-27 05:58 PM | Reply


Not nearly as much as you little mind. Read much? It only one fucking sentence. Did you get dizzy?

pfft


UMMMMM Larry


What does well-regulated mean? You are supposed to use all the words in a sentence. English is tricky that way. So is your point that every citizen was well regulated? Is that what you are saying Binky?


HMMMMMMMMMMMMM????

#89 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-10-27 05:13 PM | Reply |


Try answering a question for once numb nuts.

;-)

The parents should be shot too.

#76 | Posted by Alexandrite

He was...right in the heart. And now he has to live it forever.

FOREVER is a long time.

Madness takes it's toll.

It don't say so specifically in the Second Amendment but you gotta use your head when you handle firearms and esp. when you hand those firearms to children.

That used to be called common sense, before it became nearly non-existant in America.

larry you are makeing alot of sense probably why bob doesn't get it


larry you are makeing alot of sense probably why bob doesn't get it

#102 | Posted by evil_stu at 2008-10-28 01:21 AM | Reply

I guess you think reading half a sentence is good enough too---hey--the Activist Judges don't think you need all the words either.

It's ONE SENTENCE, idiot--too tough for you cretins to handle.

Even one WORD screws up your logic circuits. Here--let me assist:

in⋅fringe   /ɪnˈfrɪndʒ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-frinj] Show IPA Pronunciation
verb, -fringed, -fring⋅ing.
verb (used with object) 1. to commit a breach or infraction of; violate or transgress: to infringe a copyright; to infringe a rule.
verb (used without object) 2. to encroach or trespass (usually fol. by on or upon): Don't infringe on his privacy.

fkn morons

For Buffalo Bob

adams.patriot.net

"What you say doesn't change the FACT that the Constitution says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

If you don't like it--change it. But the FACT is--that's how the Constitution reads--SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED--is about as clear as the English language gets. What part is hard for you to understand?"

#83 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

I understand the 2nd just fine there, B-Bob. You must be new here or you would have noted that in many other 2nd Amendment discussions, you'd know that I am a proponent of the 2nd.

What I am not a proponent of is the brand of extremism you preach. The shear ridiculousness of what you advocate merely makes you the target (and rightfully so) of the numerous spears and barbs.

Perhaps you'd be comfortable with gangs openly carrying AKs or mental unstables packing 357s: it's their right doncha know. I don't think I would be. No, no, I don't think I would.

Perhaps you'd be comfortable with gangs openly carrying AKs or mental unstables packing 357s: it's their right doncha know. I don't think I would be. No, no, I don't think I would.

#105 | Posted by ZOT at 2008-10-28 09:09 AM | Reply

It doesn't matter a whit what I want. It is what the Constitution says. The exact words. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Either you go with what the Constitution says or you just make up shit as you go along.

My point is that the second has nothing to do with the individual right to bear arms---it has everything to do with what it SAYS---protecting the State(and its PEOPLE)from an oppressive Federal Government by allowing the State to protect itself with a well-regulated militia---and that there should be NO INFRINGING on the rights of the States to bear any arms to protect themselves and their citizens.

If you want the individual right to bear arms WITH RESTRICTIONS. Pass an amendement that has the correct words in it. Don't change the second to read what the fuck you want it to read.

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED IS PRETTY FUCKING CLEAR.

To those who understand English anyway.

I don't know why there is so much talk about what the Second Amendment means.

It is clearly stated in Plessy v. Ferguson that the U.S. Supreme Court is charged with interpreting the Constitution, not random people with random opinions.

In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for private use.

"not random people with random opinions."

You will note I restricted my quotes to the author of the amendment and one guy who was there at the time.

It is clearly stated in Plessy v. Ferguson Posted by Petro81

Oops, I meant Marbury v. Madison. Its been a long morning...

"instead of the original meaning of arming a well regulated militia to protect the State from the Federal Government"

The issue at the time of the writing of the Constitution was whether the U.S. should have a standing army to protect the country or to be protected by state militias. 'Twas a huge argument between Jefferson and Hamilton. It was eventually decided not to have a standing army, thus the second amendment was written to focus on the state militias. And to allow able-bodied men to maintain weapons so that, should the state militia be called into action, those men would be prepared. At no point was the issue one of protecting vs. the Federal Government. The Jeffersonian quotes are just reflective of his general opinion re a central/federal government. You can read the many statements he made re this when John Adams created a "standing" army/navy when a war appeared imminent between the U.S. and France.

Oops, I meant Marbury v. Madison. Its been a long morning...

#109 | Posted by Petro81 at 2008-10-28 12:39 PM | Reply |


That's what Activist Judges do. They ignore what is said in the Constitution and change it to what they want it to say or what they think it should say.

Catch up.

This is the second Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This is what you and the Activist Judges see:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be infringed as we see fit.

This is what you and the Activist Judges see:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be infringed as we see fit.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-10-28 01:36 PM


So... you're saying the U.S. Supreme Court has a majority of activist judges who disregard the Constitution?

And you, on the other hand, are far more qualified to interpret the meaning of the Constitution?

Um... interesting...

8 year old children should not have a gun in their hands, let alone an Uzi. Even though he was shooting under adult supervision, an Uzi was obviously too much gun for an 8 year old child to be able to handle.


That's what Activist Judges do. They ignore what is said in the Constitution and change it to what they want it to say or what they think it should say.

-- BuffaloBob

Funny how you consider them "activist judges" when they rule a certain way on something you don't agree with (Second Amendment), but when I used the term "activist judges" to describe the CA Supreme Court overturning Proposition 22 (which stated "marriage is between a man and a woman) even though the people of California had voted overwhelmingly for it, then all of the sudden they are no longer "activist judges" and their ruling to overturn Prop. 22 was correct according to you.

Guess it all boils down to whether or not one likes the way the perceived "activist judges" happen to rule on any particular issue.

So... you're saying the U.S. Supreme Court has a majority of activist judges who disregard the Constitution?


And you, on the other hand, are far more qualified to interpret the meaning of the Constitution?


Um... interesting...

#112 | Posted by Petro81 at 2008-10-28 01:42 PM | Reply | Fla

What I'm saying is that I can read English.

How about you?

Define "well-regulated", and tell how it applies to individuals owning weapons.

Define the phrase "necessary to a Free State", and explain how it applies to the individual right to bear arms.

Explain what the Activist judges see in the second if they don't see:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be infringed as we see fit.

That is exactly how they interpreted the second as far as I can see.

How do YOU interpret what they said?


Califchris

In the California Constitution, there is no restriction on marriage between a man and a woman. Activist Judges saw that in the Constitution when it isn't there.

Activist Judges are Judges who legislate from the bench---such as saying there is a restriction on marriage when no such restriction exists.

The Activist Judges of the USSC simply ignored the Second Amendment and made up their own--as stated:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be infringed as we see fit.

That is the new Second Amendment.

Define "well-regulated", and tell how it applies to individuals owning weapons.

~BBob.

The second ammendment talks of "no infringment" and at the same time talks of gun ownership being "well Regulated".

To some that seems contradictory.

Not to Spud.

Spud thinks it's just common sense that there is some regulation as regards weapon ownership.

People shouldn't be able to own nukes, fer instance.

People who have gone to jail for violent crimes should automatically be ineligable to own a weapon fer life is another tenet that Spud believes in.

Madman Cho, the school shooter who was emotionally distressed and mentally deranged and designated a potential risk to himself and/or others, is also a good example of someone who's ability to own guns should be curtailed.

That sed, Spud is generally pro-gun. The right of the individual to protect himself, his family and his property with a legally owned gun should never be infringed upon unless as in the aforementioned examples that individual has disqualified himself by his own actions.

Automatic weaponry is prolly a really bad idea as it makes the liklihood of someone going ballistic and killing mass numbers of people a la Cho et al a grim certainty.

Allowing concealed carry to occur for people who have aquired a legal gun license is prolly a reallyn really good idea not only in terms of self defense but also in term of the deterence factor.

And yes, Spud realises he's breaking from much of the standard anti-gun positions of his bretheren liberals here.

So wot?

Be Well.

What I'm saying is that I can read English.

How about you?

. . .

How do YOU interpret what they said?

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-10-28 01:55 PM


As I said earlier, it is entirely unimportant what my opinion is regarding this.
It is completely natural for everyone to have their own opinions - the judicial branch was created to settle the arguments and define the law.
There would be absolute chaos if the law were based on the opinions of random people.

As far as your questions go, this is what the U.S. Supreme Court said about the first part of the sentence you seem to think they ignored (obviously because you didn't read the case):

a. "Well-Regulated Militia."
In United States v. Miller, ... we explained that "the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense." That definition comports with founding-era sources. See ... Letter to Destutt de Tracy (Jan. 26, 1811), in The Portable Thomas Jefferson 520, 524 (M. Peterson ed. 1975) ("[T]he militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms").

Petitioners take a seemingly narrower view of the militia, stating that "[m]ilitias are the state- and congressionally-regulated military forces described in the Militia Clauses (art. I, 8, cls. 15-16)." Brief for Petitioners 12. Although we agree with petitioners' interpretive assumption that "militia" means the same thing in Article I and the Second Amendment, we believe that petitioners identify the wrong thing, namely, the organized militia. Unlike armies and navies, which Congress is given the power to create ("to raise ... Armies"; "to provide ... a Navy," Art. I, 8, cls. 12-13), the militia is assumed by Article I already to be in existence. Congress is given the power to "provide for calling forth the militia," 8, cl. 15; and the power not to create, but to "organiz[e]" it-and not to organize "a" militia, which is what one would expect if the militia were to be a federal creation, but to organize "the" militia, connoting a body already in existence, ibid., cl. 16. This is fully consistent with the ordinary definition of the militia as all able-bodied men. From that pool, Congress has plenary power to organize the units that will make up an effective fighting force. That is what Congress did in the first militia Act, which specified that "each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective states, resident therein, who is or shall be of the age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia." Act of May 8, 1792, 1 Stat. 271. To be sure, Congress need not conscript every able-bodied man into the militia, because nothing in Article I suggests that in exercising its power to organize, discipline, and arm the militia, Congress must focus upon the entire body. Although the militia consists of all able-bodied men, the federally organized militia may consist of a subset of them.

Finally, the adjective "well-regulated" implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training. See Johnson 1619 ("Regulate": "To adjust by rule or method"); Rawle 121-122; cf. Va. Declaration of Rights 13 (1776), in 7 Thorpe 3812, 3814 (referring to "a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms").

District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S.Ct. 2783, 2799-2800 (2008).

Buffalo Bob clearly has not read the US Supreme Court's opinion in DC v. Heller. Since he is too stupid and lazy to look it up, I will post the syllabus for him to read.

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
(a) The Amendment's prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause's text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court's interpretation of the operative clause. The "militia" comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens' militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens' militia would be preserved.
(c) The Court's interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediatelyfollowed the Second Amendment.
(d) The Second Amendment's drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms.
(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court's conclusion.
(f) None of the Court's precedents forecloses the Court's interpretation.
Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553, nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 264265, refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes.

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed
weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller's holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those "in common use at the time" finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

3. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District's total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of "arms" that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny
the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibitionin the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acutewould fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

Joe

That the Activist Judges need to use so many paragraphs to tear apart a simple sentence should be a clue.

It is a simple sentence that was changed from this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

to this:

Individuals have the right to bear Arms, but that right shall be infringed as we see fit.

The problem I have with a lot of this "strict interpretation" of the Constitution is that the Constitution is, in fact, one huge compromise, fitted to the core issue of how much power should be given the central/federal government, Jefferson vs. Hamilton. The one "self-understood" concept everyone involved had was that the end product (the Constitution) would be written for the situation the 13 colonies found themselves in. What everbody understood, and what Jefferson's points about needing a new constitution every generation or so were about, was that the country would undeniably change with time and that this would have to be accounted for. Hence the "amendment" concept.

I understand that the nature of "law interpretation" is merely to focus on salient points, but I do not agree that present day considerations should have impact on that interpretation, aka, "strict interpreation".

Petro81

So if you aren't a male--you don't have the right to bear arms? So if you get too old to serve, you don't have the right to bear arms?

If you can't read the sentence--I can't help you. I don't care what Activist Judges say.

The dissenting judges are the ones who can read.


Petro81
So if you aren't a male--you don't have the right to bear arms? So if you get too old to serve, you don't have the right to bear arms?
If you can't read the sentence--I can't help you. I don't care what Activist Judges say.
The dissenting judges are the ones who can read.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-10-28 02:33 PM


Bob, I am not saying that your opinion is stupid or invalid. If it was, the argument would never have reached the Supreme Court.

My point is only that the U.S. Supreme Court consists of 9 judges who have dedicated their lives to studying and interpreting the Constitution, and this is the interpretation the majority of them agreed on. Whether you agree or disagree on their interpretation doesn't really matter.

As a side note, Justice Scalia wrote the opinion in Heller. Although he is notoriously conservative, he is also an originalist and the most staunch supporter of the plain meaning of the Constitution - the complete opposite of what you seem to be calling an "activist" judge (who would read in meaning to the Constitution that does not plainly exist). If you don't believe that, I suggest you research his decisions in the past.

he is also an originalist and the most staunch supporter of the plain meaning of the Constitution


#122 | Posted by Petro81 at 2008-10-28 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag

Just because someone says they support the Constitution, doesn't mean they actually support the Constitution.

If a Judge changes this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

to this:

Individuals have the right to bear Arms, but that right shall be infringed as we see fit.

then he is an Activist Judge--no matter what he says--no matter what his record on other cases.

then he is an Activist Judge--no matter what he says--no matter what his record on other cases.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-10-28 02:57 PM


You are the first person I have ever heard call Scalia an "activist."

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one...


Can we be really sure he wasn't shot by a black Obama supporter?
After all, they used an jewish gun just to enhance anti-sematism.

#12 | Posted by northguy3

Don't you think that's racist on your part, Northguy?

Ah, how could you be a racist? You're against racism, yet, you and the other racist Libs bring it up all the time!

How many gun owners are part of a well-regulated militia? I'll bet it's a tiny percentage (1 or 2%).

Gun-nuts are always trying to argue that the 2nd Amendment means anyone, anywhere can have as many guns as they want. Any literate person can plainly see that it wasn't written that way, and it also doesn't meant that.

If you had seen your neighborhood overrun by gangs, drug dealers, and evil men, you would argue in favor of outlawing guns as well. Children are forced to huddle on the floor to avoid stray bullets; people must buy bullet-proof glass for their windows. It's insane that people must fear for their lives in their own home.

Hopefully Pres. Obama will get the opportunity to appoint 3 or 4 Justices.

"What kind of retard would let an 8 year old fire an Uzi?"

Im with you on this. I have an 8 year old and I would never let him fire an Uzi... I've let him shoot a .22 and a .243. But an Uzi. what a fucking tard.

"If you had seen your neighborhood overrun by gangs, drug dealers, and evil men, you would argue in favor of outlawing guns as well. Children are forced to huddle on the floor to avoid stray bullets; people must buy bullet-proof glass for their windows. It's insane that people must fear for their lives in their own home."

You think taking guns away would stop this? How about going after the people doing this shit....

"You think taking guns away would stop this?"

But it worked so well in DC!

In DC people just purchased the property in the "Hood" and built new condos and housing. Pushing the slums out.

My son was 8 the first time he fired my S&W model 25 (.45 Colt revolver). I only put one round in it. He shot it once and handed it to me. He had no interest in firing it again. He's bigger now and likes that big N frame Smith. When he got his CHL I gave it to him. It's still his most accurate pistol.

wow. I agree with ZAT?!? What is this Bizarro World?


"You think taking guns away would stop this?"


But it worked so well in DC!


#129 | Posted by Zatoichi.

The gun is not responsible for the childs death. His reckless, moronic father is.

We need to stop this blaming the gun crap. Guns are only tools, they have no mind, no will. That half of the equation comes from the HUMAN HOLD THE GUN.

Seriously blaming a death like this on THE GUN is like blamming the crooked angle of the trusses on your house not on the carpenter's work, but on his hammer.

"His reckless, moronic father is."

Posted by GotTruth

One way to get a Darwin award and not be dead: Kill your kid.

My kids have been shooting since they were five, just like me. My father, the Ft Bliss gunnery instructor, started me out with a single-shot .22 on a bench at a range. I tried my best to give my son and daughter the same experience, but I don't teach folks to shoot as a profession. My daughter always won the shooting competition at Cimarroncita, anyway.

*HOLDING

You think taking guns away would stop this?

~Libs

But it worked so well in DC!

~Zat

** Ka-BLOOEE **

Hey, somebody owes Spud a new sarcasm meter.

The last one just plumb asploded!

Spud had it turned all the way down too!

Be Well.

Now people think we should make a law to stop this from happening. The fact is you can't fix stupid.... no matter what law you put in place.

I'm all with you on teaching resposible gun handling to compitent youth ZAT. You know a .22 or possible a even a 9mm cause they kick like a school girl. But i thin giving the kid a UZI was a bit much.

The murder rate in the District of Columbia rivaled the country of Colombia while guns were virtually outlawed in DC.

These weapons exist. You cannot insulate your kids from them. The best possible solution is proper weapons training early on.

I bet no military unit gives raw recruits fully loaded auto weapons at first; It's S T U P I D.

And I am sure the biggest deterrent to home invasion is the owner's gun.

My kids have been shooting since they were five, just like me.

~Zat.

It sez in the story that this guy gave his eight yo an uzi and then "supported" him, presumably by preventing the kickback from knocking him backwards by standing behind him.

saw the boy's father supporting his son from behind when the accident happened.

Wot do you think of that?

Spud agrees with the assessment up thread that that single stupid action was as responsible fer causing this tragedy as was putting an automatic weapon in the hands of an 8 yo in the first place.

Be Well.

/Will check back later fer a reply.
//Gotsta eat sommat now.
///Exiting the DR like a starchy bullet
stage left.

"Wot do you think of that?"

Should have started with ONE ROUND in the weapon.

Then graduate to TWO ROUNDS when it's obviously a reasonable thing to do.

Anyway, my kids have never shot something like that.

A fucking 9mm machine gun is really useful for quail hunting.

"But i thin giving the kid a UZI was a bit much."

Posted by GotTruth

Like I said, the Marines aren't that dumb.

You don't put a student pilot in an F-18 on the Nimitz, either.

11 year old israeli schoolchildren can dismantle and put together an uzi in no time at all...according to some secret service friends...perhaps gun safety is more the issue here?

www.youtube.com

Above is a video about the poor kid.

He was using a micro-Uzi. I don't think that has a butt you can jam into your shoulder? THAT is what went wrong.

And like I said earlier THIS (see next video) is how you shoot an SMG. You jam it into your side and use your body to take the recoil. You can't aim it anyway when you start firing on full auto so there is no point in shooting it like a regular 9mm.

www.youtube.com

According to the video, the father was ten feet away when it happened.

So now we have two different versions of the story.

Sheesh... damn thing looks like a Kalakov (a very nasty Pakistani auto weapon).

A Kalakov is a known cop-killer and car-stopper. Somewhat smaller than an Uzi with a higher rate of fire and better handling. But nothing when compared to a real assault-rifle like a Kalashnikov.

SMGs are for pussies and get a thrashing when put up against assault-rifles like the AK-47. Even the Israelis don't use the Uzi anymore.

Tosser I have a question, how much gas does your generator burn to power your home?

Rasta... I have a question. Where you born this way or do you have to work at it?

I figured this is how peoples homes are powered??


Pak electricity

I figured you are about to leave us?

www.drudge.com

hahahahahaha

Useless. You have been marked Boy!

A pic of generator repair shop..... yippy... LOL

You don't have these in America? hahahahahahaha

Useless Nigga.

You used to post as Jackass. You have already been kicked out of here. LOL

And pay attention, please Nigga.

This thread is about a little kid getting shot and about guns. Not about scoring points and your little squabbles.

the kids parents were idiots. Tosser I enjoy debating you. Because I know at the end of our debates I will always be able to claim victory.

I will always be able to claim victory.


Whatever makes you happy "Jackass". LOL

Nobody under 16 should be allowed into a gun show let alone trying out weapons made strictly for killing humans .

"Nobody under 16"

There goes the Boy Scout shooting merit badge.

troop509.org

My father's three rules of gun safety.

1. There is no such thing as an unloaded gun.
2. There is no such thing as a safety.
3. Never, ever, point a gun at something you do not intend to shoot.

Any questions?

There goes the Boy Scout shooting merit badge.

Come on...I'm sure the boy scouts merit badge does not include covert weapons and full autos.
Up here in socialist Canuckistan...you have to be 12 to join rifle range....and are not allowed to shoot until you pass the hunters safety course .

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