Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, October 19, 2008

John McCain and Barack Obama swapped sharply worded charges over tax cuts on Saturday, each accusing the other of shortchanging middle-income Americans at a time of economic hardship for millions.

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Joe the plumber has exposed Obama's mindset (spreading the wealth around) and on ABC (how much was he paid for the interview?) has expressed doubt on Obama's commitment to tax.

Anyone that has followed this campaign knows that McBush is just pandering at this point. The history of lies and slander precedes anything that he might say whether true or not. As I've said in the past anyone can lie but when someone will probably lie that changes the way the game is played. McBush has poisoned his own well.

Joe the plumber has exposed Obama's mindset (spreading the wealth around)

Awwww, how cute.

Takeyermeds thinks he's made a point.

Consolidation of wealth into too few hands and consolidation of media into too few hands is simply not healthy for a functioning democracy.

Both were mainstays of the BushCo Dienasty.

That's why Dumbya's the WORST. POTUS. EVAR.

That's also a large part of why Obama is gonna win the election by an unprecedented margin is a coupla weeks.

Wot part of that can't you figure out?

Asides from all of it, obviously.

Be Well.

"exposed"

www.joetheplumber.com

Takitz thinks that the idea of reversing the bush policy of taking FICA withholdings from low and middle incomers and giving them to millionaires is some sort of plot.

Perception, perception, perception.

A mother called in a TV program to say that she could not persuade her son to register and vote in this election, but after the story of Joe the plumber, he decided to register and vote come November 4 --- and he plans to support McCain.

Joe the Plumber won't even be affected by Obama's tax plan - he won't make $250,000 to qualify for the higher tax bracket. Facts don't matter to some, they just need to hear a good false story.

Talk about facts, listen to Howard Stern exposing Obama's supporters: NEWSBUSTERS dot org.

Joe the plumber was talking about a future dream and he didn't like what he saw under Obama's idea of socialism (government forcing productive workers to spread the wealth around).

Ok, Ok, so the idea is that republicans lower taxes on rich people, the rich people take their tax savings and use them to create jobs that poor people work at at the economy booms!!!!!!!!

Can someone please tell me when it has ever worked? Will one of you please tell me how much money the big george bush tax cuts saved you? How many jobs did you create with the all of the money you saved?

"Joe the plumber was talking about a future dream "
yes, a pipe dream
do you know what they call an unlicensed handyman claiming to be a plumber, one that steals work from real plumbers, a SCAB!

Nogov,

Trickle down never works. It is a good talking point and that is it.

Lowering taxes on the uber wealthy only encourages them to send jobs overseas to maximize profits.

Yeah, but takeitz simply had to have saved enough money with the george bush tax cuts to create a shit load of new jobs, right? One of you dick smacks here HAD to have, , , right? What? Not a single job created by any of you? I'll be damned.

Looks like Joe the plumber is making a bit of income by going to TV interviews --- and those licensed plumbers are getting jealous.

Not a plumber, not jealous, just curious wondering how many jobs you managed to create with your george bush tax cut. I didn't manage to create any, and since unemployment is more than double what it was 8 years ago I don't think many other people did either.

' I don't think many other people did either. '

Posted by NoGov4Me

What about an entirely new technology?



Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

One of the unfortunate things about our education system is that we do not teach students how to avail themselves of their subconscious capabilities.
Bill Lear

Talitez - I have been reading your input about this and you ask what has the taxes cuts done. I was able to purchase a new home not to mention buy more things with my money.

It appears you have never taken a ECON I or II class. It is a proven fact when you lower taxes people will spend more. People spending more means more revenue for the government.

In the Carter years we had 19% home mort.rates, a 8% un-employment, High taxes and high inflation.

I am sure you are not a stupid individual. But I feel you are just not aware of both the physical and monetary policy of this country.

Jimmy didn't and look what he was able to do...

And I am sorry, I am dead set against some lazy SOB getting a welfare check for my hard work.

"It is a proven fact when you lower taxes people will spend more. People spending more means more revenue for the government."

That might seem to follow, but recent history tells a different tale. The tax cuts enacted by Bush haven't translated into higher government revenues, once inflation is factored into the equation. That record still belongs to tax year 2000, the last year of the Clinton tax codes.

"And I am sorry, I am dead set against some lazy SOB getting a welfare check for my hard work."

The Wall Street boys aren't all lazy SOBs.

Nice try Danforth, but the Wall Street Boys work their butts off too?

Tax cuts are meaningless at this point.. We are all going to have to pay the piper someday if the size, expense and power of government isn't cut. You might get a tax cut tomorrow, but down the road you are going to have to pay for Iraq, the bailouts, etc, and it is going to make your tax cut feel like pennies.

Unfortunately, our stupid populace continues to vote for candidates that are guaranteed to increase the size and expense of our government.

It is like in Braveheart when Wallace tells the nobles that they are arguing over who will get more of the tablescraps from Longshanks table.

Wanda Sikes for Treasury Sec/

jezebel.com:80

Just tell me how many jobs you created with your george bush tax cut. I already told you that wasn't able to create any, and judging by the way the unemployment figures have just about doubled since 2000 I'd say most others are in the same boat, sort of leads me to believe that the whole idea is flawed.

Beer Taxes

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.'

Drinks for the ten now cost just $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so: The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings)
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant the men began to compare their savings. 'I only got a dollar out of the $20,' declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, 'but he got $10!'

' 'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

' 'That's true!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Originally written by David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia.

With all due respect, if you can't break that down into a one or two sentence blurb most people here, well me anyway, are going to skip right over it. I understand the intentions, they are noble. I'm not talking about intentions though, I want to hear the results. How many jobs did you create with your george bush tax cut?

Originally written by David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia.

Dr. Kamerschen did not write that article. He has stated this many times before in numerous articles. You should really research these things better before blindly posting a mass email.

Ok, I went ahead and read it, I actually read it before. I asked you to tell me how you used your tax savings to create jobs, you reply with a story that someone made up. Was the rich guy who got beat up Sam the Tax Cheat? His story was a nice little fairy tale too.

joe the plumber hates himself
and america

It never ceases to amaze me how many Dems vote against their own best interest. I live in MI. Look at what the Dems have done to Detroit and our state.

Take a close look, that is what the whole country will look like when the Dems are finished with it.

"Take a close look, that is what the whole country will look like when the Dems are finished with it."

Better check under your bed.
I think a boogeyman might be lurking there.

Well, at least it is finally settled. The republicans are finally admitting that those bush tax cuts didn't go to the majority but to the few elite rich.

Now they are mad because the tax cuts are going to go to the actual people who make this economy run.

Have to laugh though, they sit here and debate something that they have said didn't happen for the last 8 years.


"Take a close look, that is what the whole country will look like when the Dems are finished with it."


Better check under your bed.
I think a boogeyman might be lurking there.

#31 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

BOO!

I now have to laugh at this sight, the only republicans posting here are nothing but hacks who are die hard neocons and have nothing of substance to actually spark a real intellectual debate.

They are so bad that now they are posting underground fliers as if it was real information.

To too funny.

Time will tell. The Dems will act quickly to put their plan into place. In 2 to 4 years we will see if what they want to do will work.

The good news is that if they work we will know who to reward and if they do not work we will know who to blame.

This will quickly move out of theory and into real life.

Obama says he is not raising taxes on people who make less than $250,000. everyone knows that. what Obama does not tell you is he will let the Bush tax cuts elapse, THUS RAISING OUR TAXES!!

Over 70% of CEOs think Obama will be bad for the economy, but the lackey liberal media are just ignoring that finding. (Newsbusters.org newsbusted)

Very true American. I believe the Bush tax cuts effected almost everyone. Yes, the people making more benefited more. But, you are correct when the Bush tax cuts expire everyone's taxes will go up.

Again, time will tell. When all the lemmings realize that Obama just raised their taxes when he said he would not, we will see how they feel about it.

Clinton promised to reduce taxes and never followed through with it.

query.nytimes.com

You searched for As candidate, Mr. Clinton promised to offer tax relief to families with incomes of less than $80,000 a year. He said he would raise taxes on only "the wealthiest 2 percent," those with incomes above $200,000 a year, and impose a surtax of 10 percent on those with annual incomes of more than $1 million. He said that over four years he would squeeze an additional $45 billion out of foreign corporations doing business in the United States. He dismissed as an outrageous falsehood the Republican assertions that his spending programs would mean additional taxes on families making as little as $30,000 a year. Now, Mr. Clinton proposes to increase income taxes to 36 percent from 31 percent on couples who have taxable income of more than $140,00 a year and on unmarried individuals with taxable income of more than $115,000.

Raising corporate income tax will raise the cost of doing business which will increase prices on everything made in the U.S. or force industries to cut costs by using lower quality material or labor, making our goods less competitive with foreign goods, decreasing demand for our goods, decreasing job requirements and profits, which leads to increased unemployment and decreased tax revenue.

Increasing capital gains and regular income tax on the wealthy will cause a decrease in investments which will further aggravate the shortage of credit that is absolutely necessary for a healthy economy.

When Obama was confronted with this apparent dilemna (I heard the interview myself), he acknowledged that it could be a problem but that it was still the "fair" thing to do.

Let me get this straight. Even though his economic plans might worsen the economy and lead to a higher cost of living and higher unemployment, it is more important that we narrow the income gap between low and high income Americans. That's a plan? No, that is the epitome of the insanity that is political correctness.

"Nice try Danforth, but the Wall Street Boys work their butts off too?"

Then why are we giving them a trillion dollars?

Income taxes have always been progressive. This isn't anything new. What Obama's proposing is way less progressive, historically.

What's even more amusing is how McCain can get up there and talk about "Joe the Plumber" and a host of other middle class earners, and lead them to believe a vote for McCain is a vote in their self interest. They'd do better under Obama's plan, but the GOP's convinced them that taking less and giving more to the rich will magically help them.

We're talking about going back to the tax system of Clinton, but only for those that make over 250K. That's not even radical. It's not even a "distribution of wealth" that's anywhere close to what's been done in the past.

This idiocy renews my cynicism about the average American's intelligence.

"Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:"

Except that assumes all ten men got the same thing.

They didn't.

Turns out Six got mush, two got chicken, one got steak, and one guy order a fabulous Petrous, fois gras, lobster bisque, Kobe beef, and a couple of bottles of 1997 Dom Perignon.

And when the bill came, he suggested it be split ten ways.

And when the bill came, he suggested it be split ten ways.

Who is suggesting that?

Remember in a debate when Charlie Gibson suggested lower the capital gains tax rate would actually increase revenues to the govt? Obama's answer even so, I would increase it, because of fairness. That's Obama. Fairness, equality, spread the wealth.

Conservative: I love you and will help you help yourself.

Liberal: I love my vision of the world and will change the world to fit that vision. You will love it, because it's fair and right.


the question still stands, how many jobs did the "anamerican"s of the world create with their george bush tax cut?

Again, I understand the intentions, they are noble, I want to know the results. How many jobs did you create?

"Many of Obama's credits are refundable, which means the government will in essence write a check to make sure that you get the full value of the credit even if it's more than you owe in taxes. Under the Obama plan, some of the poor would in fact pay a negative tax-that is, they'd get money back from the government-even after including payroll taxes." - Money Magazine November 2008 - What do I do now?


Socialism. Doesn't work. Never has, never will. See USSR.

Remember that in Bush's first year of office, he had to deal with both the dot-com crash and 9/11. Even so, unemployment was often better then some of the Clinton years.

The last year+ has been worse in the US(interesting when you consider who had the majority in Congress), because rising energy prices have triggered a recession.

It's important to handicap Bush appropriately when discussing the economic policy.

Meanwhile, the Bush years didn't _feel_ like the growth period they mostly were because even though total compensation rose (wages+benefits) , wages themselves were flat. In essence, rising health care costs sucked away all the growth.

That's one of the reasons McCain's health care plan is much more interesting and practical then Obama's.

NAFTA, Bill Clinton's baby, also sent many jobs overseas. And lets not forget all the jobs being held by illegal immigrants that probably aren't even counted because their employers pay them under the table.

So you're saying that because of NAFTA you weren't able to create any new jobs with your george bush tax cut?

Can you at least tell me exactly how much money your george bush tax cut saved you?

No, not specificially, Nogov4me. Obama's plan to let the tax cut expire will increase my taxes.

And I do know what this analysis(online.wsj.com) of the Obama plan shows me. Look at the chart showing the tax difference for a two earner couple with a child in college and another receiving child care (apparently still needing at the least summer and after school care):

There's another catch: Because Mr. Obama's tax credits are phased out as incomes rise, they impose a huge "marginal" tax rate increase on low-income workers. The marginal tax rate refers to the rate on the next dollar of income earned. As the nearby chart illustrates, the marginal rate for millions of low- and middle-income workers would spike as they earn more income.

Some families with an income of $40,000 could lose up to 40 cents in vanishing credits for every additional dollar earned from working overtime or taking a new job. As public policy, this is contradictory. The tax credits are sold in the name of "making work pay," but in practice they can be a disincentive to working harder, especially if you're a lower-income couple getting raises of $1,000 or $2,000 a year. One mystery -- among many -- of the McCain campaign is why it has allowed Mr. Obama's 95% illusion to go unanswered.



Anamerican quit being greedy. Do your patriotic duty and just pay your taxes.

So you can't even tell me how much money you saved over the last 8 years? Why is that?

You heard it here first folks, the results of an economic policy, which are a miserable failure, DO NOT matter. The only thing that matters are the intentions. Oh yeah, and it only failed because of Bill Clinton.

Man if only there was a way to have predicted that it wouldn't work, , , something like, oh I don't know, the fact that it has never worked any other time it has ever been tried, we might not be in the mess we find ourselves in. We should do the smart thing and look to the very people who got us here to get us out. . .

NoGov4Me, your blog name is so ironic. "No government for me" but you want the "government will take care of me" candidate.

That in itself is an oxymoron.

I don't want either, what I want is for you to tell me why you keep saying that the only thing that will work hasn't worked any time it's ever been tried. It didn't work the 1st time, it didn't work the last time, it didn't work this time, and it won't work the next time.

These blogs are hilarious.

A no-tax, no government intervention, free-market economy actually has been tried recently. In Russia in the early 1990s. The result was that almost all wealth quickly became concentrated in the hands of tens of oligarchs. Who invested their money where they got the best returns, outside of Russia. The poor had to exist through a barter economy. They kept waiting for the trickle down effect to work, but all the investments were going out of Russia. The middle class shrunk to less than the size it had during communism. Any business they created was quickly gobbled up by some oligarch or other. Infrastructure began to collapse since no one was paying for it. Even the military wasn't being paid. Only the rich had real health care, since they paid huge bucks for it. The country began to fall apart.

Then along came an oligarch who upped the stakes. The oligarchs had been keeping the government on the sidelines through bribes. He bought it up wholesale. Then used it to start eliminating the other oligarchs, either jailing them, forcing them to flee overseas, or forcing them to relinquish their control over the industries they controlled. And created the natural end-result of unbridled capitalism, a monopoly. Yeah, it was Putin. And he showed how effective free-market capitalism was, especially when it came to stopping actions like his.

Yeah, sounds like exactly what we need here. Per the no-holds bared capitalism espoused by the various Vermin here.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Reps vote against their own best interest. McCain said America didn't get to be the greatest country on Earth by spreading the wealth around, and he sure was RIGHT -- we got rich using 300 years of free labor from stolen Africans. George Will said there should be no minimum wage, which evidently he believes in reviving slavery.

Do your patriotic duty and just pay your taxes.

What the hell do you know about patriotism. How do you think the forefathers would feel about our taxes, and our government for that matter. Go read something...


Anamerican quit being greedy. Do your patriotic duty and just pay your taxes.

#52 | Posted by rastaninja

What's more patriotic? State of Federal?

of=or

"Who is suggesting that?"

Mr. Ten.

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