I know a couple that own a plumbing contracting business. They have 3 employees. The 'business' has never 'netted' over $250,000. They pay themselves salaries which come off the top, and subcontract for larger jobs - also a 100% tax writeoff. They have a building with supplies and offices as well as 4 trucks. The family has been in the business for 3 generations. I've known them 20 years. Something about Joe's whole story stinks:

Joe Wurzelbacher may end up being the most embarrassed plumber in America when all is said and done. There are a few problems already with his story:

- He hasn't even bought the business yet, and claims he wouldn't because he might have to pay more taxes. Hmmm
- It is a 2 man operation. Sound like a $250K "Profit" business to you?
- He must have an awful accountant. If he plans to buy this 2 man operation, why wouldn't their salaries and other deductions be taken off the gross - lowering the gross income of a 2 man plumbing outfit WELL below a $250,000 taxable 'profit'?
- Joe already talked to right wing websites and had an agenda by bringing this hypothetical situation up in the first place.
- The only tax increase would be 3% mor on ONLY profits OVER $250,000 - up to $250K NO CHANGE. Taking the above mentioned deductions for salaries that would reduce the gross income of the business an equal amount, it's HIGHLY unlikely a 2 man plumbing outfit would ever NET over $250,000 a year. Even so, say it NETTED (not grossed) $300,000 (after deductions for salary, equipment, milage, equipment, etc) would only be $1500. And this is what's stopping him from buying the business? I say bullshit

There's just too much about JOE THE PLUMBER's story that doesn't add up.

If it turns out he's not even registered to vote, that would be a real embarrassment he brought on himself by both that reason and lying about hesitating over a decision to buy a business for reasons that are very questionable.

I mean, he won't buy a business that'd have to gross MUCH more than $250,000 (unlikely with 2 employees) to ever come close to paying more taxes under Obama's plan? This guy has an agenda.

Point 2 should have read:

"He must have an awful accountant. If he plans to buy this 2 man operation, why wouldn't their salaries and other deductions be taken off the gross income - lowering the NET income of a 2 man plumbing outfit WELL below a $250,000 taxable 'profit'?

Anyway, I call bullshit on his story that he's hesitant to buy the business because he may have to pay $300 more in taxes for every $10,000 of NET income over $250,000 this 2 man operation may make.

The whole story is really fishy. I think he wanted to be a 'big guy' on camera, score some points for McCain (who he obviously seems to lean towards), and get on TV. I suspect this will come back to embarrass him mightily in the future there in his small town.

The median income for a household in the village was $33,669. There were a little over 1000 residents according to the 2000 census.

The average cost of a house in the village is $89,225

Times are tough around Toledo, Ohio

I call bullshit on his whole story, and the premise of his question to Obama.

Obummer is a Marxist, by his own admission, AU. Joe's status as a registered voter, small business owner or even if he's a real plumber is totally irrelevant to the issue. Your messiah admitted to the world he's a marxist.

After he burns through the upper-class money, where's he gonna turn in his quest to redistribute the nation's wealth?

You DO know that only 2% of small businesses make a taxable profit of $250,000?

Obama's tax plan would add $300 per $10,000 in NET income.

You righties keep your talking points going...

It's all BS and most of the rest of the country knows it.

The idiots you listen to on the radio are getting REALLY rich from the sheep who suck up what they dish out. They'd never stop to give you a ride. Gullible idiots all....

$300 per $10,000 ONLY on taxable income OVER $250,000 a year

Again, that's 2% of small businesses who NET over $250,000 a year.

Joe's a liar anyway who wanted to get on TV. Well, he's going to be the most embarrassed man in Holland, Ohio within a week when his BS is exposed for what it is.

Yes AU I found joe the plumber to be a stretch in every exaggeration mccain could make and if you notice obama when he talked of this a slight smile shown on his face.

There is nothing in mccain that actually cares about joe plumber because everything mccain has said contradicts the helping of the situation.

People can't afford houses or their house payments so helping plumbers does nothing.

People can't afford to buy even the materials to do the plumbing job themselves so again hiring a plumber would be wasted.

Clearly mccain doesn't have a grasp of main street america and how bad it is really. Too long living amound the lords and hasn't been amoung the serfs.

The Republicans often seem to have alot of problems with plumbers...

MONEYWAR

Joe's whole story doesn't make sense. He has an agenda and has already done a lengthy interview on a right wing website prior to this debate.

TRUEBLUE

That was a funny comment! Especially since I just saw a 2 hour special on Richard Nixon's political career.

You DO know that only 2% of small businesses make a taxable profit of $250,000?

Obama's tax plan would add $300 per $10,000 in NET income.

You righties keep your talking points going...

You spewing talking points all morning, and accuse me of "keeping the talking points going' when all I did is make an observation about Obummer based solely on what the man said. AU, you're the one with the "talking points' schtick,dude. Fact of the matter is, you have more talking points in any given hour than most posters do in a week. Now, go wash the bullshit outta your "Obama/Biden" underwear and start the day with an unbiased opinion.

Well, at least we know the republicans think plumbers like to drink six packs.

And by american1st post we can clearly see why mccain is losing, rhetoric and focus on bashing the other party instead of providing why we should support the republicans.

The whole debate mccain did nothing but bash at obama and slash at his character without ever convincing us that he(mccain)has something to offer us american people.

Joe the plant.

It is awfully convenient how quickly he hit the right wing media outlets.

Joe the McCain operative.

Joe Sixpack?

BTW anyone that claims they will not buy a business or work hard solely because of a 3% tax on amounts above $250,000 per year is just stupid. Stupid and lazy.

JOE THE PLUMBER Isn't Registered to Vote?

Well, then why the hell doesn't ACORN register him to vote? I guess they were too busy registering Mickey Mouse.

Anamerican,

Taxable income is net, not gross income.

AMERICAN1st

I listen to right wing radio from time to time, and have made a point of listening this election cycle and watching FOX News - just to keep up with the talking points.

Now, McCain Campaign v3.9 will be 'Obama wants to raise your taxes', when experts have examined both candidates plans and unequivocally concluded Obama's plan will LOWER taxes MORE than McCain's plan for MORE Americans.

McCain lies his ass off. The right wing media lies their asses off. Usually I can tell what's on the front page of RushLimbaugh.com without ever typing it in my browser address window.

"Joe the Plumber" is a liar, or the stupidest plumber in the United States who has no business buying a business. A two man plumbing business that NETS $250,000 a year? Uh huh. Maybe in a NeoCon's dreams. The guy's a plant and his story is ridiculous on it's face.

www.sba.gov

You will find the list of small businesses that make over $250,000 a year

That is gross receipts, not taxable income. Taxes are paid on taxable income which is gross receipts less a deduction for business expenses. You are comparing apples to Buicks.

BTW,

How come Sean Hannity is not all over the fact that McCain is not wearing his mandated flag pin?

Business expenses include the salaries the business owner pays himself and his employees.

In any case, even if he did pay $300 per $10,000 in additional income, so what? After he's paid himself, paid his employees the rest of his expenses and salaries, taken all his deductions, and still NETS $250,000 he's gonna NOT BUY THE BUSINESS over a few hundred dollars?

As I posted at the top of this thread, I KNOW a family who own a plumbing contracting business with 5 employees. They've NEVER netted $250,000 for their business. They pay themselves salaries and have an accountant.

Joe's a world class liar who wanted to get on TV. His story is just to far fetched.

In any case, even if he did pay $300 per $10,000 in additional income (over $250,000), so what?

BTW,

How come Sean Hannity is not all over the fact that McCain is not wearing his mandated flag pin?

#21 | Posted by 726

Good point!

For the sake or argument and in the interest of moving the thread along, I guess conservatives would argue something like: McCain is a war hero/pow who has proven his love of country, but Obama on the other hand is suspect.

I'll leave it up to you to respond to this. If I responded to my own argument (playing Devil's advocate) then I would need to be locked up.

"How come Sean Hannity is not all over the fact that McCain is not wearing his mandated flag pin?"

My friends, I tried.
Oh, how I tried.
But every time I put that sucker on it went belly-up, upside-down faster than an octaroon trollop in a Rio de Janeiro hot-sheet joint.
Reminded me of some of the planes I blew up.
But, my friends, I don't think Old Glory will hold it against me, do you?
No, sure you don't.
By the way, speaking of "Old Glory," have I ever told you about my foreign policy experience with that octaroon trollop in a Rio de Janeiro hot-sheet joint?
~John "Blinky" McCain

Well, then why the hell doesn't ACORN register him to vote?
Posted by member2586

They tried, but Joe gave up smoking.

Can anyone explain how 95% of Americans will get a tax break if 40% do not pay taxes?

Is it spam if I only post it twice?

Nobody has asked the question:

If "Joe" "Is Going" to buy this business that apparently makes so much money, with what is he going to buy it?

McCain fell for the guy, because he wanted to use and use again the old saw about "spreading the wealth around".

I sure hope my plumber isn't making $250K a year profit! He overcharges, for sure.

But Joe clearly does not know what he is talking about. He doesn't want Bill Gates to pay taxes either!

And what on earth was that "Joe, you're rich!" line supposed to mean?

Can anyone explain how 95% of Americans will get a tax break if 40% do not pay taxes?

#27 | Posted by anamerican

It's that New Math they've been teachin' kids for years now!!! Yeah, that must be it!

I confirmed he's neither a registered voter nor a registered plumber (you're supposed to be in Ohio).

Wurzelbacher
Samuel (first name)
J (middle initial)

Strewsbury (street)

43528 (zip code)

Lucas (county)

This just came out. So, in all fairness here it is:

Joe Wurzelbacher doesn't immediately turn up in the Ohio voter registration database, leading to some speculation last night that he's not registered to vote.

But the Toledo Blade reports that he appears to be a registered Republican, and a primary voter at that:

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber's, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database.

(This is, incidentally, the reason people worry about purging the voter rolls. They're such a mess to begin with.)

Ironically, the GOP is challenging any voter who's exact spelling doesn't match the voter rolls in Ohio. Must only be Democrats they're worried about.

Joe Wurzelbacher doesn't immediately turn up in the Ohio voter registration database, leading to some speculation last night that he's not registered to vote.

But the Toledo Blade reports that he appears to be a registered Republican, and a primary voter at that:

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber's, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

a registered rethug. Prob paid by Mcsame in order to try and make Obama look bad.

He doesn't show up with the misspelling either.

He'd better get this straightened out if he is indeed registered. Ohio Republicans want to turn away voters who's ID's don't match the voter rolls exactly.

On another note, now I'm all worried if I hit the lottery.

Might be a .... pipe dream.

Can anyone explain how 95% of Americans will get a tax break if 40% do not pay taxes?

dont try and explain libeal tax policies...

just listen to the WORDS OF THEIR CANDIDATE

SPREAD THE WEALTH.............thank you COMRADE

"Can anyone explain how 95% of Americans will get a tax break if 40% do not pay taxes?"

It depends. Can you explain why you pretend income taxes are the only taxes people pay?

and if there is time I bet he WILL be registered to vote so that he can at least have a voice in keeping obama from STEALING Money out of his pocket and giving it to someone who doesnt produce.

"SPREAD THE WEALTH.............thank you COMRADE"

What do you think has been going on---just in reverse---for the last 8 years? Those making over $350,000 got a massive tax cut; guess who pays if they don't?

I KNOW SAM THE BUTCHER, AND JOE THE PLUMBER, YOU'RE NO SAM THE BUTCHER!!!

"I know a couple that own a plumbing contracting business. They have 3 employees. The 'business' has never 'netted' over $250,000."

Well - if the one plumbing business you are aware of has never netted over $250,000, that means it's impossible for anyone else to have done so. What a moron.

"Can anyone explain how 95% of Americans will get a tax break if 40% do not pay taxes?"

It depends. Can you explain why you pretend income taxes are the only taxes people pay?

#39 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-16 11:23 AM

So you don't have an answer to my question, do you Danforth?

As far as your question back to me, Obama has implied he is talking about income taxes. If he has talking about sales tax, etc., please link me quickly to that soundbite.

"Obama has implied he is talking about income taxes."

Where?

Please link me quickly to that soundbite.

What I've said is I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of working Americans, 95 percent. If you make more -- if you make less than a quarter million dollars a year, then you will not see your income tax go up, your capital gains tax go up, your payroll tax. Not one dime.

Okay, your turn a@@wipe.

"Okay, your turn a@@wipe."

Why? You just proved me right, and you wrong.

What do you think has been going on---just in reverse---for the last 8 years? Those making over $350,000 got a massive tax cut; guess who pays if they don't?

#41 | Posted by Danforth at

just look at the amounts and percentages of taxes paid by the wealthy and semi wealthy......and you will find what you are looking for..........
but as mccain asked over and over

in this economic time...WHY RAISE ANY TAXES?

In the first sentence he says 95% will receive a tax cut. (tax cut)

In the second sentence, he says you will not see income tax, capital tax or payroll tax go up if you make less than $250,000. (no increase in tax)

Which is it? Tax cut or no increase?

dan.........we can read through the bullshit from obam because remember he is a lawyer and when his mouth moves........that means he is lying........
ba dump dump....

sorry....had to get that in

and the point is

last night barry lied through his pearly whites about this whole incident.........

and this morning joe biden tried to tell us that this JOE guy was able to pay taxes because he made or stood to make over 250,000 and WE ALL KNOW THat it was the business that was to make that.

so where does his paychecks to employess come from

more lies that the leftwing media REFUSES to even talk about

"WE ALL KNOW THat it was the business that was to make that."

And that income flows to the business owner. What don't you understand?

BL2

The extra 3% of only net income above $250K is only a return to the levels they were under Clinton - you know, the last time there was a balanced budget, let alone a surplus that could have paid off the national debt by this time. The national debt that costs us $500,000,000,000 (billion) a year now.

Pray interest rates don't rise or it'll be bigger than the 'bailout' EVERY year.

As Obama's tax plan relates to you as a former teacher, you will get 3 times the tax CUT as McCain proposes, and NOT PAY A SINGLE DIME IF YOU'RE A SENIOR WHO EARNS LESS THAN $50,000 A YEAR.

(put that in caps with the hope you can't miss it)

In other words BL2,

Obama's plan HELPS you more than McCain's plan. Big time.

"just look at the amounts and percentages of taxes paid by the wealthy and semi wealthy"

Which means, if they're paying more despite the lower rates, they have much, Much, MUCH more.

The really wealthy pay a 15% capital gains rate.

Less than I pay for my income.

"In the second sentence, he says you will not see income tax, capital tax or payroll tax "

So you proved me right...he wasn't just talking about income taxes.

"in this economic time...WHY RAISE ANY TAXES?"

2000: We have a surplus. We need a tax cut.

2001: We've been attacked. We need a tax cut.

2003: The economy is recovering. We need a tax cut.

2005: The economy is strong and getting stronger. We need a tax cut.

2007: The economy is strong and getting stronger. We need to make the tax cuts permanent.

2008: The tax cuts led to the largest deficits ever and a financial meltdown. We need a tax cut!

Danforth, you make about as much sense as your Master. LOL

2008: The tax cuts led to the largest deficits ever and a financial meltdown. We need a tax cut!

#59 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-16 12:00 PM | Repl

AND OBAMA WANTS 95% OF AMERICANS TO GET ONE AND IF THEY DON'T PAY TAX THEY GET A "I'M SORRY YOU'RE A LOSER" CHECK!! LOL

In other words BL2,

Obama's plan HELPS you more than McCain's plan. Big time.

#55 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2008-10-16 11

this may surprise you but I KNOW THIS ALREADY

but it might be better for me but not for MY COUNTRY.............

I can also make it up at the track any time I want to anyway.............well......s
ometimes

gotta go

have a great day

Joe the Plumber was rightwing plant?

Bwa hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!

Wow McLame. Deseperate much?

McLame is just trying to do the same thing here that Bush did back when.

Talk about his wonderful tax breaks that ended up being a sop to the wealthiest while the vast majority who's wages cannot keep up with inflation ended up worse off.

McCain's wants to continue to give massive tax breaks to Corporations already making record profits and not paying the taxes they ought to due to massive loopholes their lobbytists finagled for them.

McCain is just another elitist corporate socialist trying desperately to hide that reality behind a false concern fer the real working Joes and Janes out there.

A wealth distributionist fer the wealthy paying nominal lip service to the idea of populism.

His attempts to co-opt Obama's message of change are effective only with the brain dead true believers on the right.

Joe Sixpack will be screwed blued and tattooed under a McCain administration.

Why Rtards seem to think encouraging even more wealth inequality will lead to better times down the road and a return to the days of healthy economy is beyond Spud.

The Rtards do not promote capitolism, nor democracy.

They promote neo-fuedalism and neo-fascism.

Anybody who thinks Obama is a Marxist is guilty of more guilt by association projection.

All American pols are corporatists first and foremost or they wouldn't be able to run.

That's the system.

Learn that much at least.

Back on topic?

Joe the Plumber was just another in a long line of dirty tricks employed by the right this election in order to obfuscate the scary truths behind the McCain/Palin campaign and the GOPher agenda.

Lies and hate are all they got left.

That aint enuff.

Be Well.

/Entering blogworld as ya do,
stage left.

"AND OBAMA WANTS 95% OF AMERICANS TO GET ONE"

Personally, I don't believe anyone should get tax cuts while we're still running massive budget deficits.

I also believe it won't happen: the current financial meltdown has all but guaranteed higher taxes, since so much money is going to Wall Street Welfare Queens, and by the time we dig our way out of that, the Medicare and Social Security tsunamis will be upon us. Whomever becomes President won't have two nickels to rub together.

Anybody who thinks Obama is a Marxist is guilty of more guilt by association projection. - potatoe

I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

Keep spouting bs spud - by the way, congratulations on your elections in Canada. Or do you only care about what happens in countries that matter? - Husseinich

Lies and hate are all they got left. - potatoe

The only involvement I've had with ACORN was I represented them alongside the U.S. Justice Department in making Illinois implement a motor voter law that helped people get registered at DMVs.

Except he also said:

But let me say that before I even get inaugurated, during the transition we're going to be calling all of you in to help us shape the agenda. (cheering) We're going to be having meetings all across the country with community organizations so that you have input into the agenda of the next presidency of the United States of America!

"He got people to vote with their feet" on the issue, organizer Madeleine Talbot said. At the time, Talbot worked at the social action group ACORN and initially considered Obama a competitor. But she became so impressed with his work that she invited him to help train her staff.

What was that about lies and Hate?

That should be

I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." - Husseinivich

"I molest babies" - ElCid the Osama-loving jihadist

Gee, that kind of attack is really easy. It was fast and took absolutely zero brain activity. Plus everyone is now so impressed. Its just like Jesus would do. Thank god for my moral superiority.

Personally, I don't believe anyone should get tax cuts while we're still running massive budget deficits.
#64 | Posted by Danforth

Aren't you arguing both sides of the issue, Dan?

I wonder where AnalAmerican and BL2 et al will be on the morning of 11/5/08?

"Aren't you arguing both sides of the issue, Dan?"

No. I've stated:

1. Income taxes are not the only taxes.

2. No one---rich, poor, or in between---should get a tax cut while we're running record deficits.

How is that both sides?

How is that both sides?

#70 | Posted by Danforth

First you argue that Obama's tax cuts are a better idea than McCain's, then you say that you don't think that anyone should be getting any.

If you don't think anybody should be getting any tax cuts, and I agree with you there, how can you simultaneously defend anybody's tax cut plan?

But I'll give you that "both sides" was maybe the wrong way to put it. However, it does seem to me to be logically inconsistent.

"First you argue that Obama's tax cuts are a better idea than McCain's"

Where did I do that?

"how can you simultaneously defend anybody's tax cut plan?"

Where did I do that?

Where did I do that?

#72 | Posted by Danforth

You know what? You're right. It was AU, not you.

Apologies.

Gee, that kind of attack is really easy. It was fast and took absolutely zero brain activity. Plus everyone is now so impressed. Its just like Jesus would do. Thank god for my moral superiority.

#67 | Posted by kevin23

What the hell are you talking about? I was correcting the post prior to this. Go on about your moral superiority again -

Joe must win the autographed toaster oven that James Dean was struggling to win...

McCain mentioned "Joe the plumber" 23 TIMES last night!

""Joe the Plumber" is a liar, or the stupidest plumber in the United States who has no business buying a business. A two man plumbing business that NETS $250,000 a year? Uh huh. Maybe in a NeoCon's dreams. The guy's a plant and his story is ridiculous on it's face."

#19 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Not surprising that AU would rabidly attack someone, calling them a liar and/or stupid and/or a plant just because they don't agree with the great Obama's tax plan.

Obama and the libs are more afraid of Joe the Plumber than they were about Palin's children.

How do you spell "DESPERATION"? Joe the plumber... I can't believe I was disappointed that GWB stole the election from McCain. I was actually gonna send that guy money until he got torpedoed by, who it now turns out are the same people now working for his campaign.

Isn't doing plumbing work without a valid license a violation of the law?
"Joe" isn't even just freelancings his plumbing work but running an actual plumbing business without a license. Sounds like a contractor's violation to me.

According to the news Ohio doesn't require plumbers to be licensed. Of course I think that's whacked but oh well.

Larry

Now Palin is talking about Joe--and Jane--the Plumber:

McCain, Palin said, is "a leader who's going to Washington to work for Joe the Plumber." She later added: "You know, we want to cut taxes because we think like Joe or Jane the Plumber thinks."

Careful with that plunger, Eugene.

"Of course I think that's whacked but oh well."

That's nothing, here in Florida you have unlicensed electricians running big jobs. Illegal aliens do virtually all construction work without training, licensing, etc. It's the Bush Economy way. Anything that reduces wages is the idea doesn't matter if people get killed (some have) or nothing. We see the financial industry was deregulated but it was by no means the only industry deregulated.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350.

Funny how when UnAmerican quotes Obama directly all the words are there.

What I've said is I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of -working- Americans, 95 percent.

When UnAmerican wants to paraphrase Obama he leaves out one of the most important words Obama uses to make the distinction.

AND OBAMA WANTS 95% OF AMERICANS TO GET ONE

#61 | Posted by anamerican

I think the word "working" carries a lot of importance in Obama's statement. UnAmerican must also think it's pretty important. I don't recall seeing UnAmerican forget to leave the word out.

Obama and the libs are more afraid of Joe the Plumber than they were about Palin's children.

#78 | Posted by fwthom

Afraid of Joe blowjob? Bwahaha!
Joe Blowjob IS Joe six-pack(a night)!
Well on his way to alcoholism, wife-beating, child-molesting, and DUI charges.
Gee whiz...sounds like the perfect repub to me!

So there's this surgeon who has a plumbing problem in his office.
The problem is so bad that it's disrupting his office visits, and he panicks. He orders his secretary to call a plumber to fix the problem.

The plumber comes in and after about 3-4 hours work fixes the problem.
The plumber then presents the surgeon with the bill for parts and labor.
The surgeon looks at the bill and says "This price is ludicrous, I'm a surgeon and I don't make this kind of money!"

The plumber replies..."I didn't either when I was a surgeon."

(dat dat dat - cymbal crash).

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350.

#85 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday

Would you mind telling me what the hell difference that makes. Everyone in the demoncrat party from NObama on down is trying to rewrite history on Joe the plumber.

His concern was he wants to buy the company he works for which would put him into the $250K level so NoBama can tax the hell out of him. NOT that he make that now. You people can't pay attention long enough to undstand the point you are fighting about.

undstand=understand

Afraid of Joe blowjob? Bwahaha!
Joe Blowjob IS Joe six-pack(a night)!
Well on his way to alcoholism, wife-beating, child-molesting, and DUI charges.
Gee whiz...sounds like the perfect repub to me!

#87 | Posted by frankf55

That has to be the worst dumbass statment made today. Frank, fuck off.

Joe the Plumber can't even pay $1,100 in back taxes on time. He sounds like a guy a long way off from earning $250,000 in net income a year. His business scenario was just a chain-yank to help McCain look good.

Mutt-yer an idiot, Joe blowjob is a plant-while a real person-his story is bs, and Grumpy McPoopypants knows it-his own campaign staff helped fabricate the whole thing!

The nation has debts in the trillions, we continue to fight two wars at a cost of billions every month.
The wealthy have earned and increasing percentage of the wealth ever since Ronnie Raygun which just happens to coincide with when we first topped 3 trillion in debt. Now Obama wants to return those earning over $250,000 to a 39% tax rate and some, like this clown Joe, whine about it. To me their selfishness is unpatriotic. We had much higher rates than 39% until Raygun's era and we grew our middle class, we educated our children, we built roads and infrastructure, we were a creditor nation not a debtor nation. The Joes of our country have had their way too long and we now have an economic melt down to thank them for. I think with the election of President Obama and a Democratic majority in both houses we will let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire but before he leaves office I have a feeling that we will be looking very seriously at the Raygun tax cuts and realizing we probably have to return to the pre Voodoo economics tax rates. Those of us who care about the next generations are finally going to take back our country from the greedy who put wallet before country.

"his own campaign staff helped fabricate the whole thing!"

#93 | Posted by frankf55

Link? Proof? Or are you just talking out of your ass? (per usual)

His concern was he wants to buy the company he works for which would put him into the $250K level so NoBama can tax the hell out of him. NOT that he make that now. You people can't pay attention long enough to undstand the point you are fighting about.

The facts about Plumber Joe are still coming in:

If the company is actually that profitable, and depending on how the business is organized legally, Obama's plan would indeed raise his federal income taxes, and Obama conceded as much during the exchange. As we've written before, small businesses commonly are organized in such a way that their owners file business taxes as individuals. So if Joe's plumbing business earns more than $200,000 per year (or $250,000 if Joe is married and files tax returns jointly) then his taxes would indeed be higher under Obama's plan than under McCain's.

Update, Oct. 16: ABC News reported that Wurzelbacher may actually qualify for a tax cut under Obama's plan, and not a tax increase. ABC reported on its Web site the morning after the debate that one of its reporters, Chris Bury, had spoken to Wurzelbacher and that he "acknowledged that he wants to purchase the plumbing business for $250-280,000, not that he would net that much in profits." ABC news quoted him as saying he would make much less than $250,000. If that's correct, then Wurzelbacher based his complaint on a misunderstanding of how Obama's tax plan would affect him. Earlier, Wurzelbacher appeared live on ABC's Good Morning America program and repeated his complaints about higher taxes, but anchor Diane Sawyer did not ask him about his expected profits or question whether his taxes really would go up. We await further clarification.

What do you think has been going on---just in reverse---for the last 8 years? Those making over $350,000 got a massive tax cut; guess who pays if they don't?

#41 | Posted by Danforth at

The Chinese.

Wurzelbacher and that he "acknowledged that he wants to purchase the plumbing business for $250-280,000,

Usually you purchase a business based on multiplier of five times earnings unless there are significant appreciated assets inside the business.

That would put taxable income just north of $50,000 per year.

I highly doubt Joe the Plant would pay more taxes under that scenario.

anamerican has it correct...*how can 95% of Americans get a tax break when only 40% of Americans pay taxes?*

is this *new* math? a new form of welfare perhaps? socialism?
this is SO un-American. anyone that thinks *only the rich* will be affected is sadly mistaken and down right naive. once they're done *milking* people over $250k...then *rich* will be re-defined as anyone making over $100k and so on...only a matter of time till Obama picks your pocket too...

unless you're one of the *poor, under privileged, down trodden*...then you'll have everything handed to you...that will make everything *fair*...

btw...my oldest friend has a plumbing company(for twenty years)is the ONLY employee and make far more than $250k a year

#94 | Posted by danni

Danni,

That post was so full of fecal material I can't pick out any one piece of it paste. I have a few questions.

1. How will raising taxs on 4% of the population help.

2. Do you really think that "big Business" pays taxes? (I hate to tell you but any taxes on business get pass back to us as higher product cost).

3. Do you understand that nearly 50% of the adults in this country pay no taxes at all.

4. Do you understand that over 90% of the small companies in this country employee less than 100 people and a tax increase with mandatory government health insurance would cause layoffs in numbers we have not seen since the depression.

5. And, you know that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried.

Here is a little story which is appropriate right now.

Once upon a time, there was a young charismatic and eloquent young leader who
decided his Nation needed a change and that he was the one to implement it.
The people were receptive and ready for a change. He spoke passionately when
denouncing the existing system; and the media loved him. Nobody questioned
what he believed in or who his friends were.

He would help the poor and bring free medical care and education to all. He
would bring justice and equality. He said: I am for hope and change and I will
bring you both.

Nobody bothered to ask about the change, so by the time the executioners guns
went silent, all personal firearms had been confiscated. When everyone was
Finally equal, they were equally poor, hungry and miserable. Their free
education was worthless. When the change was fully implemented, the country
had been reduced to a third world country status. More than a million people
fled in small boats and rafts.

The charismatic young leader was Fidel Castro; the nation was Cuba. The
citizens of the United States would never fall for a charismatic, eloquent
young leader who promises hope and change without asking, What change, and
how much will it cost us? Would they?

If a person earns $250,000 today they really only have the purchasing power of $150,000 when Bush took office. So really iif we had kept the 39% tax rate and a balanced budget the person would actually be able to buy more than he can with the lower tax rate and the higher amount of dollars.
When they lowered the tax rate and started borrowing instead of taxing it just inflated the money and in the end people really weren't even any better off.

JOBAMA read a history book. Look of FDR, look up 90% tax rates for those earning over 3.2 million and read about how The Greatest Generation paid those higher taxes, created a great country and didn't whine whine whine. My parents generation would be ashamed of most Americans today, I think they would really wonder why they sacrificed so much just to let the next couple of generations piss it all away. Today's afluent just don't care about the future of this country yet they pretend to be patriotic. They wear flag pins, they wave their flags, they sing and act all pompous but really they hate most working Americans, they don't care about the future of the country. This nation will eventually collapse unless the power shifts from the "coalition of the wealthy and the stupid" to the rest of us.

I'm disappointed that Joe the Plumber is full of shit. His live interview on MSNBC this morning was entertaining, though I can't understand any American who still thinks Social Security is a bad idea. The idea that some shmoe can ask a presidential candidate a loaded question and get mentioned two dozen times in a debate is hilarious.

To the leftists, Joe the Plumber, just a regular guy, is worse than Bill Ayers so they need to go poking in his personal life. Go figure............

OMG, he has an unpaid tax lien!!! Off with his head!! sarc/

That post was so full of fecal material I can't pick out any one piece of it paste. I have a few questions.

Your questions answered mine: you're an idiot.

1. How will raising taxs on 4% of the population help.

How did decreasing the taxes of the top %5 of earners help? (hint: it didn't)

2. Do you really think that "big Business" pays taxes? (I hate to tell you but any taxes on business get pass back to us as higher product cost).

Yes they do and (no they don't). You have no understanding of the concepts of competition and market share.

3. Do you understand that nearly 50% of the adults in this country pay no taxes at all.

This factoid is 80% bullshit.

4. Do you understand that over 90% of the small companies in this country employee less than 100 people and a tax increase with mandatory government health insurance would cause layoffs in numbers we have not seen since the depression.

That's quite a stretch, even for somebody who probably believes the world is 6000 years old and that 'trickle-down' economics work.

5. And, you know that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried.

#100 | Posted by JoBama at 2008-10-16 04:07 PM

That's not true. But republicanism has failed when it was tried here though.

They wear flag pins, they wave their flags, they sing and act all pompous but really they hate most working Americans, they don't care about the future of the country.

#103 | Posted by danni at 2008-10-16 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Another lecture from the DR's biggest hypocrite as she screams with glee while riding in her non American built car. Yippeeeeeeeeeee for Danni.

"anamerican has it correct...*how can 95% of Americans get a tax break when only 40% of Americans pay taxes?*"

This has already been (repeatedly) pointed out that there are more taxes than just income tax (e.g., sales tax, property tax, etc.).

"is this *new* math? a new form of welfare perhaps? socialism?
this is SO un-American. anyone that thinks *only the rich* will be affected is sadly mistaken and down right naive. once they're done *milking* people over $250k...then *rich* will be re-defined as anyone making over $100k and so on...only a matter of time till Obama picks your pocket too..."

You're correct that this will affect ALL (but probably not in the way you fear). Most likely, spreading the money to a large group of people (consumers) will promote increased (and diversified) expenditures which will stabilize our (that's OUR) economy. The middle class has no intention (or ability, really) to hoard money and/or invest it anywhere but here in THIS country. To use an analogy: what gardener waters the leaves of a plant but not the ROOTS? We should do likewise when working to "grow" our economy.

"unless you're one of the *poor, under privileged, down trodden*...then you'll have everything handed to you...that will make everything *fair*..."

I'm sure there are some who want to "game" the system, but my experience is that it is MUCH more typical for "*poor, under privileged, down trodden*" to be fair, honest, and hard-working. I wish I could say the same for many of the "well-to-do" I've met. This extra "burden" (which is only something like 3% for amounts over $250K NET) will hardly bankrupt "the rich", will hardly kill incentive to become one of "the rich" and certainly will NOT destroy "the rich".

"btw...my oldest friend has a plumbing company(for twenty years)is the ONLY employee and make far more than $250k a year
#99 | Posted by iamkrash at 2008-10-16 04:05 PM"

WOW! Not to sound TOO incredulous, but you are aware that this is for a NET of more than $250K/year. If that is still what you meant to say, then your oldest friend is netting something in the neighborhood of $1K/day and he has cleared something like $5M in the last 20 years! I'm curious: what kind of plumbing does your friend do???

The "half of Americans pay no income tax" fraud

if "Joe the Plumber" really does get $250,000 net profit in his company's bank account (after paying all his expenses including his Employee's salaries and he is not willing to pay more taxes to help his Country in one of it's worst economical crises in history then I am sorry but he is a DICK.

He is an ingrate and a selfish bastard.

WE ALL HAVE PAY TAXES. Someone like him CAN afford to pay more while the rest of us CANNOT.

I can barely feed my family and meet my expenses and manage to put some money away for retirement and education expenses for my children and I have to pay more than my fair share of taxes at the end of the year so fuck HIM very much.

Thanks!

if "Joe the Plumber" really does get $250,000 net profit in his company's bank account (after paying all his expenses including his Employee's salaries and he is not willing to pay more taxes to help his Country in one of it's worst economical crises in history then I am sorry but he is a DICK.

He is an ingrate and a selfish bastard.

WE ALL HAVE PAY TAXES. Someone like him CAN afford to pay more while the rest of us CANNOT.

I can barely feed my family and meet my expenses and manage to put some money away for retirement and education expenses for my children and I have to pay more than my fair share of taxes at the end of the year so fuck HIM very much.

Thanks!

#111 | Posted by donnerboy at 2008-10-16 04:59 PM | Reply

Ah...the myths about Joe the Plumber. #1 - he didn't say he already had a plumbing business. He is a plumber and hopes to buy out a plumbing business at some point in his life - maybe by getting a loan or saving for it.

#2 He doesn't make over $250,000 a year right now.

Bottom line, he is probably in the same boat you are right now, donnerboy. But he has a dream of making more money one day. But he doesn't want to put himself in a position where all that hard work and investment will end up benefiting someone who isn't willing to do what it takes to make more money.

The left are trying their damnest to tear Joe apart, when it was obama's response to Joe that has thrust this man in the limelight.

if your around the 250,000 mark(before taxes)when obama kills bushes tax cuts you will get hit with a 4,000 dollar tax hike.i could care less , tax the hell out of anybody making over 60.000
dollars,that's rich to me.can't wait till obama gets all you rich people.

TrueBlue

He's a *private* plumber here in Ct only...He sticks to a *higher end* clientele. In addition, he works a ton of hours.

Back on point...the poorest and middle class Americans will still pay MORE in total taxes under Obama...lest we forget things like state sales tax, increases on tobacco, alcohol, gas tax...etc...

Anyone who has not been paying attention knows that obama is not going to allow Bush's tax cuts to remain in effect. That means everyone's taxes will go up. He hides that fact very cleverly.

if your around the 250,000 mark(before taxes)when obama kills bushes tax cuts you will get hit with a 4,000 dollar tax hike.i could care less , tax the hell out of anybody making over 60.000
dollars,that's rich to me.can't wait till obama gets all you rich people.

#114 | Posted by semtex111 at 2008-10-16 05:32 PM

TrueBlue

He's a *private* plumber here in Ct only...He sticks to a *higher end* clientele. In addition, he works a ton of hours.

Back on point...the poorest and middle class Americans will still pay MORE in total taxes under Obama...lest we forget things like state sales tax, increases on tobacco, alcohol, gas tax...etc...

#115 | Posted by iamkrash at 2008-10-16 05:33 PM

It's raining trolls today.
Why don't you ladies do some homework before making asses of yourselves here on the Retort.
BTW 'KRASH', how do you know how many hours 'Joe' the plant works?

Correction: Anyone who has been paying attention....

Anyone who has not been paying attention knows that obama is not going to allow Bush's tax cuts to remain in effect. That means everyone's taxes will go up. He hides that fact very cleverly.

#116 | Posted by anamerican at 2008-10-16 05:48 PM

Can you tell me how much money Bush's tax cuts saved you?

"TrueBlue

He's a *private* plumber here in Ct only...He sticks to a *higher end* clientele. In addition, he works a ton of hours."

OK. You had already said he owned his own company and was the only employee (so I assumed he was a private plumber). So, to be clear, is he making a NET (i.e., after costs/expenses) of over $250K? If all that's true, I'd suspect that he works for higher end clientele and likely works a ton of hours. However, I'm sure he's limited to 24/day like the rest of us ;-)? Of course, the clientele/hours is not the issue. Whether it is $250K NET or GROSS is the point/issue.

"Back on point...the poorest and middle class Americans will still pay MORE in total taxes under Obama...lest we forget things like state sales tax, increases on tobacco, alcohol, gas tax...etc...
#115 | Posted by iamkrash at 2008-10-16 05:33 PM"

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not seeing any evidence to back it up. Do have a source/link or just a "gut feeling"?

"If a person earns $250,000 today they really only have the purchasing power of $150,000 when Bush took office."

Not exactly. According to the CPI inflation numbers: Using 2001 as the start point, it's $185,304.

Using 2000 as the start point (probably fairer...it's 8 years), the amount is $190,577.

""Back on point...the poorest and middle class Americans will still pay MORE in total taxes under Obama...lest we forget things like state sales tax, increases on tobacco, alcohol, gas tax...etc..."

You're right. So will the upper class, and the upper upper class. We've got to pay off the Bush Bailout to all those Wall Street Welfare Queens! You know...the capitalists who want the free market to decide, until they lose big, and then they beg for socialism...?

Can you tell me how much money Bush's tax cuts saved you?

#119 | Posted by DARTHCHENEY

I doubt if UnAmerican even knows it's Thursday.

But he has a dream of making more money one day. But he doesn't want to put himself in a position where all that hard work and investment will end up benefiting someone who isn't willing to do what it takes to make more money.

#112 | Posted by anamerican at 2008-10-16 05:16 PM

I was assuming he would GET that company someday...

ALL of his hard work? What about his fair share?

If (or should I say when?) I make a $250,000 profit (in REAL dollars) for the year I will be glad to give a portion of that back to my country that made this possible.

Joe "Who will I Pretend to be Today" Biden says there are no Joe "The Plumbers" in his neighborhood, but there are Policemen who make $40-50 thousand a year there.

Doesn't this guy ever get tired of lying? He claims to live in an 1,800 square foot house. A TOTAL lie. Yes, he does have a 1,800 Sq Ft house on his property. It is his GUEST house, with three bedrooms and two bathrooms. No living room, family room or even a kitchen.

What he DOESN'T tell you is that his Main House is a 6,800 sq ft monster with 10 rooms. His first floor is over 2,800 sq ft.
His property is over 4 acres with a 4 acre lake that it sits on. Its approximate value is almost FOUR MILLION Dollars, yet his property taxes are LESS than $10,000 per year. That is about three times what I paid a year on a $200,000 home in a good neighborhood.

He had better watch out because his home is worth more than "The Messiah's" house and Michelle might get pissed about that.

As to there being policemen living in his neighborhood, hardly likely. Only 23 % of the families where he lives even have children and most of the homes around him are worth at least two million or more each. So unless the policemen in his neighborhood are crooked cops, they couldn't even afford to drive around in his neighborhood

For those of you who don't believe me, go onto Live Search Maps or any other satellite mapping program and punch in his address:
1209 Barley Mill Rd Wilmington DE
and take a look at his "modest house" and then come back and tell me if you believe it is only 1,800 sq ft.

The ShysterGuy complains about Biden's big ole home?

uh huh, aaaaand?

Like that'll make some sort of difference at this point?

Here's a clue ShyGuy...

People who support people who live in seven glass houses shouldn't oughta throw stones.

Learn that.

Be Well.

"The Messiah"?

Funny you should mention that.

McCain's Moosiah, while wildly more popular than Yawn himself in certain fundy circles, has put a stake through the heart of McLame's campaign all by herself.

Just by being herself, you betcha!

** WINK **

Even God couldn't resurrect that moribund mess.

Be Well.

Turns out the business Joe "wants to buy" is for sale for $250,000, and he'd make no where near that much.

Why is it these Republican mouthpieces can't ever tell a straight story? Also, from listening to his 'news conference' he'd be a great addition to Alaska. Says all the right right wing things.

Wurzelbacher conceded today that he is not in danger of being hit with the higher tax rate. He acknowledged that he wants to buy a plumbing company for $250,000 to $280,000. That wouldn't be how much profit he would make from the firm.

He would make much less, he said.

That would seem to indicate that Wurzelbacher would not be subject to Obama's proposed tax increase from 36 percent to 39 percent for those making more than $250,000 per family. Instead, he would be eligible for a tax cut that Obama is proposing.

I also heard "Joe" say he was 100% behind the Iraq War (which he must be against paying for) and against Social Security (owing back taxes he can't pay must have put it in a huge 401K for himself, right?)

He also said 'voters should educate themselves', yet he doesn't have a clue how McCain or Obama's tax plans would affect his current tax situation - or that Obama's would cut his taxes 3X more than McCain.

I'd bet the radio in his truck is stuck on whichever station carries the right wing talking points all day.

This whole story is laughable.

Nobody who works for or owns a small plumbing company nets anything close to 250k.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken.

I know; I'm a plumber.

The story gets funnier and funnier.

AU...will you put your left nut (if you have one left) on the cutting block should Barry's "Tax Break" not materialize? ... I didn't think so you lying bastard!

"Even if he did buy Newell Plumbing and Heating, Obama's tax plan wouldn't affect him. While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that."

The only reason I even posted this is to show how full of crap the right wing usually is. Make up crap and see what sticks.

So what does it matter of Joe's a plumber, a stock broker, an inventor or if the business even grosses $250,000? FYI AU, he did say if he were to buy the business, he wanted to expand the business by adding more employees. The principle is the same:

OBAMA punishes success and rewards laziness.

Remember, Obama was in Joe's neighborhood, Joe didn't opt to go to one of the anointed one's rallies. Obama stepped in it bigtime and the left can't throw out enough trash to cloud the issues.

Anamerican-
re: So what does it matter of Joe's a plumber, a stock broker, an inventor or if the business even grosses $250,000?

Because he said he was a plumber and that he might soon be making over a quarter of a million dollars a year. Those are kinda the premised "facts" of the whole "Joe the Plumber" distraction.

"OBAMA punishes success and rewards laziness."

Wow.

You appear to be even more of an idiot than "Joe the plumber".

No one is surprised.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was concerned about having to pay taxes as he reached a point where he could afford to buy his own plumbing business, one he said would draw income of $250,000 a year.

Joe is a plumber.

Ohio does not require someone working with a licensed plumber to be licensed himself:

"An individual tradesman in the state of Ohio does not need to be licensed. If an individual wishes to become a licensed plumbing contractor, i.e., an individual who owns and operates a plumbing company, said individual must:.........."

and then the state of Ohio goes on to list how one can be licensed.

Joe said this on Tuesday:

Joe: I live in a simple middle class home. Most of the homes go from anywhere from $90,000 at the lowest to maybe $140 at the highest. You know, just working. And, you know, when I do purchase the rest of this company and move forward, I'll be living there still because I don't want to keep up with the Joneses, and two, I couldn't really afford a bigger house. I'm going to have to work hard to make that company go, you know, I want to put more trucks on the road, and his tax increase kind of hurts that aspect.

Even if it had been presented to Obama as a hypothetical situation, Obama's answer would most likely have remained the same.

However, the crux of this whole debate on Drudge is not what he does for a living or may have been able to make as a plumber, but the answer Obama gave him.

No.

The point is Joe is a liar like so many of the right wing lunatics.

Obama stepped in it bigtime and the left can't throw out enough trash to cloud the issues.

Posted by anamerican

Uh, no. JOE stepped in it.

He claimed:

-He was buying a business that makes $250,000
False. It grossed $100,000 last year

-He claimed he's a plumber
False. He knows how to do it. He's supposed to either be a journeyman or apprentice to use his bosses license. A none of which he has

-He doesn't pay his own taxes
He's currently $1200 in arrears

-He'd pay more taxes under Obama
False. He'd actually pay neraly 3X less with his gross income of $40,000 after deductions

I'm sorry the right wingers feel the need to tell so many whoppers. Modus operandi. All they have.

Oh, and then there's the 'undecided voter' BS.

He should move to Alaska. He'd fit right in as right wing as he is.

Joe's obviously clueless and shouldn't be running a plumbing company. Clueless or a shameless liar.

The one thing ol' Joe managed to prove is that McCain doesn't wet squat.

According to you, AU, Joe is a liar. Even if you are right, does that mean Obama responded with something he didn't believe because Joe was not being truthful and Obama knew it?

Please explain how Joe's truthfulness plays into the answer Obama gave him.

Even if McCain himself hired the guy from central casting, bought him a house in that neighborhood in anticipation of Obama's arrival, told him what to ask and bribed an ABC cameraman to record it - the question is legitimate, and Obama choose to answer it, and to answer it the way he did.

Obama "chose" to answer it and to answer it the way he did.

Obama told Joe the truth

Joe did not tell Obama the truth

Is that so hard to understand?

What are you trying to say anamerican? I just don't get it, joe was a liar, no doubts about it.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would support such, and the reason is if you are willing to do this to the candidate, expect the same in return.

You have no problem with Obama's answer so why is the left so upset with Joe? He's not running for President, is he?

"McCain doesn't wet squat."

That's supposed to be "vet" but hey, the subject's plumbing.

The sad thing is, the city is still hassling him about needing a license, even though he is not self-employed, and could continue doing only residential work without one.

But most important, Joe is not running for public office, nor is he employed by anyone who is!!! But God forbid we should demand such scrutiny of Obama's associates, some of whom have actively worked for his rise in politics.

UPDATE - Joe the plumber is a relative of Charles Keating (of the Keating 5 scandal)

Oh, that is so scary, Califchris. I bet he likes kinky sex too, huh?

Classic line from The Daily Show:

"Why are we vetting this guy? He's already done more interviews than Sarah Palin!"

The "Joe the Plumber" story just keeps getting better hahaha

Joe the plumber is a wifebeater.

Califchris, even if Joe the plumber is a relative of Charles Keating, what does it matter. Obama came into Joe's neighborhood. Joe didn't go into Obama's neighborhood.

Califchris, even if Joe the plumber is a relative of Charles Keating, what does it matter. Obama came into Joe's neighborhood. Joe didn't go into Obama's neighborhood.

I wonder if Joe beat his wife with a plumbing pipe?

(I'm having fun with this story now. lol The more you Republicans try to defend this phony shill the more stuff comes to the surface about him.)

Meanwhile.......Obama has ties to ACORN supporting his campaign for POTUS and worked closely with a domestic terrorist named Ayers who has no regrets for what he did and the left yawns.

Hey Spudster,
Get your scwantz out of that Caraboo.s butt for a minute....

I could care less what Joe "Bullshit" Biden lives in... he could live in a cardboard box or Buckingham Palace....
The point is that he lies to the voters by telling them he lives in a 1,800 sq ft house and that is a LIE. That is his guest house.

How many houses McCain lives in is of no importance to me either. The fact that he doesn't pretend to be living in a 1,800 sq ft house DOES matter to me.

It is something called truth. I realize that left winger Canucks like you don't know the meaning of the word, but it is important to Americans like me.
But then again, once Obama turns America into the new Red China where criticism of him isn't allowed without being hauled off to the Gulag, I will probabaly become a Canuck myself.
I always did love Canada. Vancouver, Victoria, Edmonton, Banff. Too poor to live in Vancouver or Victoria, though they are my favorite Canadian cities.
Once drove six hours from Edmonton to Banff to have dinner at the The Fairmont Chateau. Magnificent view of the glaciers pouring into Lake Louise as the sun set and the steaks were out of this world.
Sure beat the hell out of Tavern on the Green in Cenral Park with its crummy food and $5.00 a cup for coffee.
Some of my favorite places outside of the USA. Not too fond of Toronto, but Montreal is OK too. Haven't been to any of the Eastern Provences so I can't comment on them.
Best ribs in the world are at the Tunnel Barbecue in Windsor, Ontario. Only negative is that you have to look at the Detroit skyline, Yuck.

so McCain "outs" Joe the Plumber on national TV, and that makes it Obama's fault that Joes story is questioned?

is this normal behavior for right wingers or just the dumb ones? Always blame someone else?

so Obama tells the country he has Marxist ideas on national TV, and that makes it Joe's fault that Obama was exposed?

is this normal behavior for leftists or just the dumb ones? Always blame someone else?

Joe the plumber has given McCain some traction and eggs on Obama's face --- a ground shifted and the Obama team is feeling the heat.

"so Obama tells the country he has Marxist ideas on national TV"

What Marxist ideas?

"Oh, that is so scary, Califchris. I bet he likes kinky sex too, huh?

- AnAmerican

Obama is not going to raise your taxes. He is going to raise the cost of everything you buy! Any increase on Business/Corporate taxes will increase the price you pay for everything.

That is Obama's indirect tax.

Joe knows this! I know this! Now you know this.

"so Obama tells the country he has Marxist ideas on national TV, and that makes it Joe's fault that Obama was exposed?"

link please!
do all righties lie or just you?

Give it a rest, dude

Obama's proposed rate on income over $250,000 is where it was when Bill Clinton was President. Everyone made more money, 20 million new living wage jobs were created, we didn't have a deficit.

All you right wing nuts wanted a war none are willing to pay for. In fact, you don't want to pay for any of Bush's massive blunders. Instead, you seem to think borrowing from Communist countries is somehow a good thing.

Those 2% of small business owners who make over $250K a year aren't doing so hot right now. When no one else can afford to buy what you sell everyone hurts.

CHRIS

Remember Dan Aykroyd's plumber skit on SNL?

Funny stuff!

If you don't see the relationship between Obama's policies with the basic principles of Marxism, you haven't been paying attention.

Joe will fade into obscurity in a couple of weeks.

Obama will have a new job and be hiring people to run the government, and Joe will most likely be out of a job until he enters an apprentice program as required in Ohio to use his bosses license. The problem there is the union is now aware of him and he won't be too popular around the old union guys.

And with that, I will bid you all a good night.

"If you don't see the relationship between Obama's policies with the basic principles of Marxism, you haven't been paying attention."

You didn't answer the question. What Marxist ideas did Obama state on national TV?

"* a belief that people's consciousness of the conditions of their lives reflects the dominant ideology which is in turn shaped by material conditions and relations of production"

Translation: it's the economy, stupid.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention, null.

"Spreading the wealth" is a variety of socialism (Marxism is correctly but not exhaustively described as a variety of Socialism) which takes from the haves and gives to the have nots.

A larger tax on the rich and no tax (and checks distributed) to the non-earners or low earners is spreading the wealth.

"If you don't see the relationship between Obama's policies with the basic principles of Marxism, you haven't been paying attention."

Do you know what you are trying to say here because what ever it is I am not getting it.

By your history you're trying to draw some negative attribute into this but don't see it.

How is that bank bailout doing?

anAmerican-
re: "Spreading the wealth" is a variety of socialism

What would you call adding five trillion dollars to the deficit while giving tax breaks that primarily go to the top few percent, "in a time of war", as we are often reminded by people who don't serve, but reap?

Sorry. "Debt". The deficit for this year is only around a trillion + dollars when you include the Wall Street bailout pushed by Bush/Paulson.

""Spreading the wealth" is a variety of socialism "

Actually the concept that inequality is unjust, undemocratic and destabilizing to society predates Marx by hundreds of years.

The idea of progressive taxation to ameliorate inequality was advocated long before Marx was born.

Try again.

Anamerican-
You seem to think that "spreading the wealth" UP, while saddling our children with the debt is.....well, what pejorative would you apply?

Further, you're an economic illiterate if you don't understand that capitalism needs consumers. If workers don't have the income to purchase the commodities they produce capitalism goes into one of its periodic recessions/depressions. This means that "spreading the wealth" is necessary to the health of the economy as well as necessary to prevent social chaos.

But maybe your ideal society is some 3rd world banana republic.

AnAmerican-
Oh, that's right. You WOULDN'T apply a pejorative comment to tax breaks skewed to the wealthiest in a time of war while the debt is doubled for our children to pay off. I must assume that's just the way God intended things to be, as you see it.

A larger tax on the rich and no tax (and checks distributed) to the non-earners or low earners is spreading the wealth.

LOL!

You actually have the balls to talk about redistribution of wealth.

There is nothing sadder than an individual who doesn't realize he is not in the bourgeoisie class.

ANAMERICAN

Perhaps if those at the top could see their way to paying people even a buck an hour more workers that don't could pay taxes.

Oh, but no. CEO's and upper management make sure they're making more money than they could ever spend and 'trickle down' on their workers.

Then, those uber wealthy people put their money offshore and open offices for their corporations without even a phone to avoid paying U.S. taxes.

The idea that those at the top actually pay the top income tax rates is ludicrous.

Moneywar-
Just about every poster on this blog is a current and probably soon to be former member of the middle class.

Bet,

I know.

back on issue, Joe is having his life, however meager, turned upside down by McCain's ploy of using him to attack Obama, McCain's tactic of outing Joe on National TV is leading to unwanted scrutiny of Joe. That makes McCain unethical and nasty, poor Joe suffers the consequence of McCain's dumb trick. But like a typical Repub he can blame Obama. Joe, a typical right winger told a few lies and is called on it and Obama is blamed? you righties take the cake!

What is ironic about anamerican is he begrudges the very system that is actually loaning the system he loves to keep in existance.

Spreading the wealth" is a variety of socialism (Marxism is correctly but not exhaustively described as a variety of Socialism) which takes from the haves and gives to the have nots.

#173 | Posted by anamerican at 2008-10-16 11:59 PM

Just what do you call it then, when you take from the "have nots" and give to the "haves" as our government has just done with that $800 BILLION bailout?

Is not "spreading the loss" among the "have nots" for the benefit of the "haves" nothing but a perverse form of socialism?

Hasn't our own government under Bush now practiced their own form of socialism when they let these investment banks and corporations "privatize their profits but socialize their losses"?

Capitalism lets one keep their profits but also expects one to absorb their losses. Not with the Bush corporate Republicans and the thugs on Wall Street, though. They want to keep their ill-gained profits but when they had to take a loss, as they did with the economy meltdown they caused, they immediately turn to socialism by expecting our government and we taxpayers to bail them out.

Apparently "socialism" is okay with you as long as it's socialism for corrupt corporations and the shysters on Wall Street but when it comes to helping out average Americans you Republicans scream "socialism" and "entitlement programs" and yell about how everyone should have "personal responsiblity" -- until it comes to yourself.

I'd say the $800 BILLION we just gave to Wall Street and those corrupt investment banks was socialism pure and simple. If it wasn't, we would not have used our tax dollars to bail them out.
Bush and the Republicans seem to be the biggest socialists of all.

Just like the GOP, "Joe the plumber" is a fraud.

DANNY GLOVER: The press and the plumber. They've done more investigations into Joe the Plumber in 24 hours than they've done on Barack Obama in two years . . . .

The harassment of Joe the plumber is the singular biggest mistake of the Obama campaign. The MSM is making Joe a martyr. Heck, DailyKos just published Joe's home address. Obama is now not only a Marxist but a Marxist bully - just another Chicago thug. America roots for the underdog and they will not take this action kindly. If Joe were a hero yesterday, wait a few days.

Obi Wan's line in Star Wars when fighting Darth Vader comes to mind - "Strike me down and I will return more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Americans will realize what happened to Joe could easily happen to them. And they will remember this come November.

Well, we'll know soon enough. And reader Donald Gately emails: "Joe the Plumber is the new Linda Tripp, apparently. What I find really fascinating is the fact that the media elites are treating Joe the Plumber as if he is the one who is out of step with mainstream America, while Bill Ayers is an 'Eagle Scout' (as per Tom Frank)." I'd missed the Tom Frank bit, but I take the point.

Plus, "exterminate all the brutes." And also, inside the tanning-bed media. "There is a stench of desperation surrounding this, as if they sense defeat coming from a moment of honesty from Obama about his real intentions to institute a regime of redistribution. They want to discredit the man who only asked the question as if he's some political operative who magically forced Obama to sound well, a little like a Marxist. Why? They want to distract people from Obama's answer by sliming the man Obama picked at random to ask a question. . . . The Tanning-Bed Media seems to feel that they have a duty to expose every last part of Wurzelbacher's life, but that asking Obama to explain his political partnerships with Tony Rezko and William Ayers, and his long friendship and financial support of rabid demagogues Jeremiah Wright and Michael Pfleger, are not just out of bounds but downright racist." Whatever it takes.

#190 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2008-10-17 07:19 AM

That Qualude-Acid cocktail sounds like a bitch.

This is just so typical of the John McCain Campaign.

A complete fucking lying blowhard spewing Republican Dogma.

"Joe The Plumber".... Makes $40,000 a year...Is going to buy a Plumbing Company that will supposedly make gross profits of more than $250,000 a year which he is going to have to pay more taxes on under the Obama Tax structure. Owes back and deliquent Taxes to the State of Ohio. Is a divorced single father. Claims he is a Licensed Plumber that belongs to the Toledo Plumbers Union and is a complete lying piece of shit who is neither licensed or belongs to any union. The bottom line is he is a peon grunt making close to minimum wage.

And John McCain is flying this guys flag like he is an American Hero who will soon be fucked by Barrack Obama's tax plan.

I hope the Republicans get their fucking ass's kicked so bad in this election they have to move to Alaska and have their asshole poster child Sarah Palin who doesn't know how to control her pussy take care of all of them.

USATRUE

I just laughed out loud very loudly at your post!

FF

Ya, Joe's a dreamer... Company that currently grosses $100,000 a year is his version of Powerball Lottery dreams...

I posted this "Tax Caculator" above, but here it is again for anyone who wants to compare how much of a tax cut Obama and McCain propose for their incomes:

OOPS

Here's the tax caculator:

A complete fucking lying blowhard spewing Republican Dogma.

"Joe The Plumber".... Makes $40,000 a year...Is going to buy a Plumbing Company that will supposedly make gross profits of more than $250,000 a year which he is going to have to pay more taxes on under the Obama Tax structure. Owes back and deliquent Taxes to the State of Ohio. Is a divorced single father. Claims he is a Licensed Plumber that belongs to the Toledo Plumbers Union and is a complete lying piece of shit who is neither licensed or belongs to any union. The bottom line is he is a peon grunt making close to minimum wage.

-USATRUEANDBLUEZ

Interesting! Joe didn't say he makes $250,000 per year, but might, if he purchased the business. Supposing Joe was completely mischaracterizing his wishes, OR that he was simply asking a hypothetical "What if?" I notice that Obamaphiles continue to skirt the issue. Obama wants to "spread the wealth" and sets a target of $250,000 income earners. But suppose Mr. Messiahobama later decides that figure should be $100,000? or $50,000?

Stupid Obamaphiles don't seem to get it. Redistribution of wealth (under the guise of "fairness" and a play on your boneheaded envy-politics) is called Socialism.

Can you tell us where Socialism works?

Oh yeah, Cuba! I forgot!

In the name of fairness and equity, let's stick it to those who make more than we do.

DOUBLE OOPS!

Theonebs,

Please tell us how that nonsocialist system is working for us people currently.

Come on, tell us how great we are doing.

WOB.

#196 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2008-10-17 07:50 AM
If Joe could put the money together to buy the business, of which he is currently the sole (unlicensed) employee, and the business made $250,000 profit and he had $0.01 of business-related deducations, guess what? Under Obama's plan, he wouldn't pay higher taxes.

ONE BSer

What's 3% on $20,000?

If Joe HAD owned this imaginary company earning (not grossing) $270,000 a year, the added tax would have been $600. The tax credit for hiring new employees starts at $3000 a year. There are also additional tax breaks for two years for small businesses with that NET income.

You righties can spin this 'til the cows come home, but you're shouting at clouds because your premise is as equally untrue as Obama's supposed relationship with William Ayers.

Now, John McCain has several convicted felon friends, one of whom, G. Gordon Liddy, gave instructions on how to shoot DEA agents.

It's gonna be REALLY rewarding knowing your heads are exploding the next few years if Obama wins like it seems he will.

Joe is just as full of shit as most of the GOP mouthpieces are.

Currently, in the REAL world, Joe the Plumber would get a nearly $1200 tax cut under Obama's plan and only $400 under McCain's. McCain wants to give more to those who already got the biggest tax cuts under Bush and to hell with the middle class.

Do your own math:

Oh, and if you make $50,000 a year, don't put in $50,000. Your adjusted gross income (net) would be closer to $43,000 if you take standard deductions.

Theonebs,

Please tell us how that nonsocialist system is working for us people currently.

Come on, tell us how great we are doing.

-MONEYWAR

Well, let's do some comparisons. Why don't you first tell me how bad you really have it, and then let's compare it to a socialist state...say Cuba?

So tell me, how bad is this nonsocialist state really treating you MONEYWAR?

Right wing morons always work against their own best interests.

Way to skirt the question Americanunity. Typical Obamaphile troll!

"Well, let's do some comparisons. Why don't you first tell me how bad you really have it, and then let's compare it to a socialist state...say Cuba?"

Nah, Third World's a cheater's game. How about a European socialist state and see how it comes out.

C'mon, cupcake, give it a whirl.

The ONE BSer

You can't fact the truth!!

Read facts. It isn't hard to do.

Go ahead, put in YOUR income in the calculator and see how it turns out. Don't lie to it and say you're earning 15 times what you bring home like Joe did.

Get back to us.

Face the truth

If Joe could put the money together to buy the business, of which he is currently the sole (unlicensed) employee, and the business made $250,000 profit and he had $0.01 of business-related deducations, guess what? Under Obama's plan, he wouldn't pay higher taxes.

-DOC SARVIS

Please remember the pertinent words of Obama: "spread the wealth around"

If Obama's plan isn't going to affect such a business, he could easily have said so. But Obama didn't, because something else is driving Obama's plan. I would bet top dollar that Obama doesn't even know how his plan affects the $250,000 business. Obama's first priority is equalizing, redistribution, spreading the wealth around.

theonebs,

I don't need to tell you anything, I simply showed you the hypocrisy of your posts.

Oh, by the way, this great economy style you love is borrowing millions from the socialist style country economy you are trashing.

What kind of irony is that, and why your at it, add 700 million more people and see how our economy would be faring.

WOB.

At least if your going to stay stricted to an old idea at least develop some sort of reasonable argumental support.

You got the 'BS' part exactly right in your user ID

Face the truth

-Americanunity

I am. You can "spin" socialism all you like. It's still socialism.

Don't be swayed by this Obama-troll's spin folks! Face the truth, and not the "spin" of Americanunity!

Please remember the pertinent words of Obama: "spread the wealth around"

Yes, those same words of mccain, spread the wealth around too, only it goes to those who don't need it.

Like how you again try to appeal as if spreading the wealth around is bad going to the majority of the people while spreading the wealth around going to the elite few is better.

Again, stupid and quite wobbish.

BS

I don't have much in common with you to be 'united' about.

You root for those who give away trillions to people who don't need it, and then argue with me that Obama will not cut your taxes more under his plan than McCain.

Use the calculator and get back to us. Until you do, this conversation is over.

How dare Obama stick up for the Middle Class.

McCain's shown where his priorities lay

Interesting! Joe didn't say he makes $250,000 per year, but might, if he purchased the business. Supposing Joe was completely mischaracterizing his wishes, OR that he was simply asking a hypothetical "What if?" I notice that Obamaphiles continue to skirt the issue. Obama wants to "spread the wealth" and sets a target of $250,000 income earners. But suppose Mr. Messiahobama later decides that figure should be $100,000? or $50,000?

#196 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2008-10-17 07:50 AM

Your point is well taken...but we really need to address point number #1 again.

Joe openly claimed he was a member of the Toledo Plumber Union and he is not and who has never applied for or carries the required apprentice requirements to be a master licensed Plumber.

Joe is a LIAR !!!

Any further discussion of this issue is irrelevent and unnecessary as his credibility is gone.

Right wing morons always work against their own best interests.

#205 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

AU, not everyone is comfortable sticking a knife in the side of the sucessful just to drink a drop of their blood. I'd like to think sucess will be sweeter if/when I get there on my own. But, hey, go ahead and vote yourself a raise, since money seems to be your driving motive. Some of us have higher thresholds against greed, even if it means never reaching the "sucess' rung on the ladder of life.

MONEYWAR,

I knew you couldn't/wouldn't give an example of how you have it so bad under this nonsocialist system.

Your type is so predictable. They cry, bitch and moan at how rotten this country's system is, but they don't have the balls to tell others how they got it so bad.

I'd bet you have a cell phone Moneywar? Why not take a trip to Cuba and see how many under that system also have the same? Joe Plumber was right, "even poor people in this country walk around with cell phones." But it doesn't matter, this country sucks!

So instead of speaking for others Moneywar, assuming we all got it so bad, why don't you tell us how bad you got it under this terrible nonsocialist system?

No, you don't have to answer me. You're free to do that. But it's quite telling that you do not. I think you're just a snot-nosed sniveller who truly is unaware of how good he has it, and pretends to speak for others.

Watched Joe the Plumber on the tube last night.
Complete, unmitigated, imbecilic jerkoff.

OH, yeah...Obummer is a Marxist, by his own words. Joe's story is irrelevant.

Posted by TheOneBS

You still can't provide information to back up your bullshit.
Give it up.
Just not your day.
Your talking points should arrive shortly.

1st

Even John McCain was against the tax cuts for the wealthy back before he was a candidate. Obama only proposes to let them expire.

We are so far in debt as a result. You think that's good for anyone?

Try 'we're paying $500,000,000,000 (billion) a year to service the national debt Bush has doubled.

Sorry, I'm for the middle class, even though we have an income that requires we pay a pretty penny in taxes every year. I for one, as a citizen, think we should have balance budgets. If Bush and Co want to raise it 40% in 6 years and fuck up the path of prosperity we were on in 2000, let's hear your brilliant rhetoric as to why those tax cuts that hurt us should not be allowed to expire.

"Marxist" - right wing bullshit word of the week

Is this McCain's idea of "Joementum?"

"Obama's first priority is equalizing, redistribution, spreading the wealth around."

Socialism. Our little friends won't call it that, but that's what it is. Gives 'em power. Government control of ALL the wealth. Our little leftist-socialist friends want "FREE" everything. THIS is what they don't realize:

"About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'
'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'
'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'
'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage'"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29
Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Democrats: 13.2 Republicans: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: 'In aggregate, the map of the territory Republican won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare...' Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the 'complacency and apathy' phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the 'governmental dependency' phase.

I guess some posters have been asleep the past few weeks where the wealth of the vast majority of americans was redistributed to wall street.

"Hemline(sic) University"

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

"...spread the wealth around too, only it goes to those who don't need it."

Is that something like, "FROM those according to their ability, TO those according to their needs?" Hmmm...where have I heard that before? What are you looking to get "FREE" from the government?

DOC,

What is it that I need to back up? You seem to want me to accept the way you frame the debate by giving numbers on Joe the Plumber's salary, or a business that makes $250,000 per year?

You continue to skirt the issue with the way you want to frame the debate.

Again, the pertinent words of Obama, "Spread the wealth around."

That's all one needs to know. Your so-called facts and figures are simply your way of "spinning" socialism.

"Your so-called facts and figures are simply your way of "spinning" socialism."

Let's see. . .laugh or cry. . .laugh or cry. . .
LMAO!

"Hemline(sic) University"

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

www.hamline.edu"

Gee, Zat...Is the moon still full back there in the Lone Star State?

"DISCLAIMER: There is an e-mail floating around the internet dealing with the 2000 Bush/Gore election, remarks of a Scotish philosopher named Alexander Tyler, etc. Part of it is attributed to me. It is entirely BOGUS as to my authorship. I've been trying to kill it for 3 years."

"Socialism...Government control of ALL the wealth."

Jeezus, read a book, take a class, download a podcast, get a fuckin' clue.

Spread the wealth around.

I'll give him credit. At least he's not hiding what all Liberals crave....Socialism.

"You seem to want me to accept the way you frame the debate by giving numbers on Joe the Plumber's salary, or a business that makes $250,000 per year?"

Did you see that article some time back about how vegetarianism shrinks one's brain. Well, ol' Doc subsists on a tofu and bean sprout diet, what does THAT tell you?

jga,

What bull shit....LOL!

If this professor actually put his findings under review he would be laughed out of the academic community.

City to farm send a big hickup in the evaluation just as a major false conclusion and the fact that you actually printed this garbage for support suggest the kind of honesty and intellectual value of trust you hold.

Just laughing to much at such idiocy.

Nice job Zat.

So tell us Moneywar, how bad is it for you under this "nonsocialist" system?

I'm still waiting!

"Part of it is attributed to me. It is entirely BOGUS as to my authorship."

Tyler's part isn't attributed to Olson though, is it? And even if Olson says the figures are not his, They ARE TRUE, aren't they? I mean, he isn't denying the FACTS, just his authorship.

Ah, yes...your typical democrat voter:

Most of the people who have computers and can fuck off at work all day aren't hurting as badly as most these days. At least we know they still have a white collar job ...

Obama's economic plans must be good. Most businesses I deal with have put their spending budgets on hold until after the election.

#241 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Sorry Man.

"Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote."

"Jeezus, read a book, take a class, download a podcast, get a fuckin' clue"

YOU'RE supposed to be the PHD, Doc. If THIS isn't creeping socialism....AND government controlling wealth...maybe you can tell us what is, hmmmm?
or maybe you're not Really a PHD, just another everyday DR commando.

Most of the people who have computers and can fuck off at work all day aren't hurting as badly as most these days. At least we know they still have a white collar job

- Americanunity

Ahhhh yesss. The truth comes out! The sentiments of envy-politics is on display for all to see. "Those fuckers who have it better than I do...screw them!"

Such a sentiment is in back of socialism. And Obama will accomodate it...to the destruction of everyone!

Wow.

Obama's taken a 6 point lead in Missouri.

#248 | Posted by TheOneBS at 2008-10-17 08:57 AM

You tools don't even know what socialism is.

In fact, you're as clued-in to "socialism" as you are "free market."

Here, Polly, gorge on the cracker the GOPiggies whipped up for you.

So re-educate us then DOC. Clue us in to what "socialism" really is, and how we're mistaken about your Messiah. How is "spreading the wealth around" not to be mistaken for socialism?

"Sorry Man."

I suspect ALL of that is derived from things de Toquevill said about America after his visit in the 1840's. Nonetheless...It is what's taking place.

"#247 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2008-10-17 08:57 AM"

Do you agree with Theonebs that socialism is government control of ALL the wealth?

"How is speading the wealth around not mistaken for socialism...."

How is creating systematic economic benefits for the upper 3% of earners not socialism?

"See, BS and 1st and Jest, America's gotten tired of being 'trickled down on'."

I think Americans are tired of a LOT of things. It's kinda like "deja vu all over again" as in 1964. I'm one of 'em that's tied. We just disagree on what the future path should be, that's all. Personally, I think we should start by sweeping out the 535 assholes in Congress who have been squatters in DC for decades, adopt the Fair Tax to eliminate lobbyists, and go from there.

"I suspect ALL of that is derived from things de Toquevill said about America after his visit in the 1840's."

For accuracy's sake, Alexis de Tocqueville wasn't in the US in the 1840s.

I'd like to see that Republican matra tested, that only the very rich create jobs.

It's not "spread the wealth around", it's spread teh opportunities for wealth (and power) around.

"Clue us in to what "socialism" really is, and how we're mistaken about your Messiah."

I don't see any messiah around. If you do, then what's the fuss about.

In any event, you're the one throwing the term "socialism" around---what's next for the GOPiggies? Alger Hiss?---so you tell me what socialism is.

"Do you agree with Theonebs that socialism is government control of ALL the wealth?"

The word "all" is a mite excessive. Like in, "we ALL get a little excessive at times."

Do you agree with Theonebs that socialism is government control of ALL the wealth?

- DOCSARVIS

I see that you will tell everyone what I believe socialism to be (and could you please cite the place/post where I said this?) but you waffle when asked to give your own belief!

Once again, could you demonstrate how Obama's "spreading the wealth around" is not to be mistaken for socialism?

"For accuracy's sake, Alexis de Tocqueville wasn't in the US in the 1840s."

Bad sentence structure, mea culpa. I believe his writings were done in the 1840's. He visited sometime in the '30's.

Never mind, I looked it up. he visited in 1830 and he wrote his two volumes of "Democracy in America" in 1835 and 1840.

Could you demonstrate how the system we've got, capitalism for the middle class but socialism for the rich, is an appropriate programme?

"I see that you will tell everyone what I believe socialism to be (and could you please cite the place/post where I said this?)"

You're right. My mistake. That moronic statement was made by Jest. You havemy apology

"Once again, could you demonstrate how Obama's "spreading the wealth around" is not to be mistaken for socialism?"

Once again, you tell me what you think socialism is.

Or would you care to deny that when the rich win they win big but when they lose they win anyway?

BS

Here it is in simple terms:

Bush gave away too much to the top 5%. Even John McCain thought so at the time.

We need a restoration of balance that's worked for decades. Decades we weren't in this huge mess, now facing a recession, unemployment, falling wages, loss of jobs, 2 wars, foreign competition, massive deficits, and a national debt that's gonna eat us alive.

Money does NOT trickle down. It stays put. People are hurting as a result of Reagan's failed policies.

It's over.

ZED, just a disclaimer here. I earn well less than $75,000 a year. I think I'm in the middle class bracket. More importantly I don't harbor any ill feelings toward rich people for making more than I do.

As I asked Moneywar, I now ask you: Could you tell us some examples of how bad off you have it in this capitalist system? Could you also tell us why and how it would be much better for you in this awful capitalist system if it weren't for rich people?

trickle down, isn't that where the rich piss on the poor?

THEONE---

Neither do I harbor ill feelings towards the rich per se. But let's face it, the capitalist game has been rigged to give them much more advantage than they deserve, at your expense.

I'm fine with the rich getting richer as long as they play by the same rules you do. As far as I can tell, they do not.

I bet joe's money has feces on it.

Joe The Plumber doesn't know how many houses he has.

"Money does NOT trickle down. It stays put. People are hurting as a result of Reagan's failed policies."

Oh, I think there's PLENTY of blame to go around. FDR's policies were right for the time and circumstances. Reagan's were too. Problem is, a lot of those programs stay in effect forever when they should have been cancelled. We could say the same about most any administration. My favorite is the Mohair subsidy.
You're right...deficit spending and the national debt are a major threat. We've put ourselves in a bind where deficit spending is gonna be required to try to bring us out the present crisis and where a tax increase would be disastrous. The politicians (ALL of them) are most interested in getting elected and reelected, not in solving the problems. Most of them are not willing to make the unpopular decisions they would need to.

"trickle down, isn't that where the rich piss on the poor?"

You think money doesn't "trickle down?" Does it "trickle up?" It either "trickles down" from people who have it or from the government, doesn't it? The money that "trickles down" from the government was taken from someone who HAS some money...right? I hope you don't think any money "trickles up" from the poor. Where are they getting it to begin with?

JEST

Times are tough for many. You and I are lucky enough to be old enough and insulated enough financially to withstand up and downturns in the economy, but for most wages haven't kept up while prices have risen exponentially on everything. Jobs are literally flooding out of the country. "Insourcing" - moving people HERE from India and China is rampant. I saw it with my own eyes during a recent trip to Manhattan.

We need big ideas for big problems. As big as the New Deal.

I for one see nothing wrong with returning the tax rate on income above $250,000 in NET income to Clinton levels. No one was hurting and we weren't piling up debt like there's not tomorrow. If we keep it up there may not be one insofar as a middle class goes.

The ONLY thing that makes America America is the middle class. It's disappearing.

Mom and Dad have to work. That effects the fabric of our society.

Times are tough.

We cannot continue the same policies and expect different results. Period.

it has been demonstratd that money doesnt trickle down. if it does wages would increase, that is how money trickles down. since they have remained stagnant while the wealthy get wealthier, well there you have it.

JEST

Take Whirlpool for example. Those with the money to buy appliances do.

Whirlpool closed their plant here in TN and moved their manufacturing to Mexico. The list of others is long.

Henry Ford knew that by paying a living wage his employees would be able to buy his cars.

The wealthy don't care about America. Only that they have plenty of dollars and euros. Their large purchases will most likely be things made outside the U.S. Even housing construction is overrun with illegal Mexicans. Bob Corker got caught hiring them for his construction business. Go anywhere and even those jobs have been supplanted with low wage workers while the prices the contractors charged for their homes went up.

Greed. We're in Gordon Gecko territory. It'll ruin this country. Destroy the Middle Class and we're no better than India with haves and have nots.

I hope you don't think any money "trickles up" from the poor. Where are they getting it to begin with?

#272 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2008-10-17 09:49 AM | Reply

I hope you don't think money "trickles down" from rich people--where do you think they got it in the first place? Other rich people?

"The point is Joe is a liar ....."

#139 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

I agree that Joe Biden is a liar. He said that no plumber in his neighborhood makes that kind of money.

Since Biden lives in a $3M estate there are no plumblers living in his neighborhood.

"We need big ideas for big problems. As big as the New Deal."

I certainly agree. We're not getting them either. Behind all the problems is corruption. Corruption and greed by CEO's, Politicians, lobbyists et al. Yet we're going to reelect 95% of of the 535 assholes (and their staffs) up there in D.C who are up to their necks in it. Electing ONE new man for the Oval Office ain't gonna do it, regardless of which one. I DO believe that there is less chance of McCain being eaten alive than Obama.
I don't understand those partisans who defend THEIR assholes instead of kickin' 'em to the curb when they deserve it...and a whole bunch of 'em do.

I also don't understand why anyone wants a president to fail once he/she is in office. If the country is in recession, I want a president's policies to get us out. If we're at war, I want the president to adopt policy to win it. If the president's policies fail, the nation suffers. Why would someone want that?

FREDDY

Here's what an independent study found about Biden's net worth:

there are no plumblers living in his neighborhood.

How do you know, Freddyk?
Or are you just being a dick?

"Whirlpool closed their plant here in TN and moved their manufacturing to Mexico. The list of others is long."

I bet they wouldn't have if there were no corporate taxes (Fair Tax?) and other governmental/union considerations. Corporations are obviously going to do what's in their best interest. We need to make it in their best interest to remain (and move back) to the U.S.

"The wealthy don't care about America. Only that they have plenty of dollars and euros."

Greed and corruption...aided and abetted by politicians. I still haven't heard about any candidates promising to go after offenders in this present crisis. There are MANY who need to swing. Might cost campaign contributions/votes though so it ain't gonna happen.

"Even housing construction is overrun with illegal Mexicans."

HEY! Careful! Those are future voters (some of 'em will be voting next month) you're referring to. You want to offend them? Have you heard either candidate talk about an illegal immigrant policy other than allowing them to have drivers' licenses, in-state tuition, free medical etc.? Gotta get them votes!

I think we see the same problems, just disageement on how to cure most of them. Hell, if I had all the answers I'd catch the next flight for D.C. Maybe ol' Doc is on his way right now? :-)

"Tyler's part isn't attributed to Olson though, is it? And even if Olson says the figures are not his, They ARE TRUE, aren't they? I mean, he isn't denying the FACTS, just his authorship.

#241 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2008-10-17 08:47 AM"

I'm sure you were one of those pointing out that same line of reasoning for Dan Rather ;-)!

JEST

Whirlpool never lost money while they had their plant here. They weren't paying $20 an hour.

The move was greed ... pure an simple.

Now there's another 500 people who can't afford to buy their appliances.

"The move was greed ... pure an simple."

And more government taxes/regulation would have cured that and prevented the move how?

JEST

NO ONE was proposing higher taxes or regulation on Whirlpool.

It was greed..pure and simple.

It wasn't just TN either.

"NO ONE was proposing higher taxes or regulation on Whirlpool."

I know that, AU, I was just asking for your proposal on how to stop those moves.

"It wasn't just TN either."

I know that too. Whirlpool also closed their plant in Reynosa, Mexico. As I said before, they are going to do whatever will "increase shareholders' wealth." How do you think we can keep them in the U.S. to do that? What kind of regulation can we legislate to eliminate some of the greed of CEO's? And don't forget the greed and coverups of those behind Fannie Mae/FreddieMac. What should be done about that?

The "Joe the Plumber" story just keeps getting better hahaha

Joe the plumber is a wifebeater.

Joe the Plumber beat hiw wife - Link to court case

#154 | Posted by CalifChris

The lefties take such glee in things like this. Some private citizen questions the great Obama, and that warrants digging into his personal life.

And then they laugh with glee when they found out he beat his wife, like a child finding an easter egg.

"And then they laugh with glee when they found out he beat his wife, like a child finding an easter egg."

I know. It kinda reminds me of what happens to anyone who criticizes Scientology. These are the people who want the country to suffer just to elect THEIR candidates and will then defend those candidates for ANY crime or indiscretion. Double standard? Hypocricy? NOooooooo...

" Some private citizen questions the great Obama"

That "private citizen" was used by the McCain campaign without knowing what the real situation was. The fact this guy is a fraud, doesn't understand business or taxes, and would actually do better under Obama's plan than McCain's, is a laugh riot.

Republicans: The Gang That Couldn't Shoot (It's Mouth Off) Straight.

DANFORTH

You'd think McCain would have learned his 'vetting' lesson with Palin. But, noooooooooo

Maybe they think 'vetting' is a touching that happens in veterinary offices only.

So Joe makes and exposes That One for the socialist he is "spread the wealth" and folks on the left go bonkers.

Attack the one who exposed the farce that Obama is and let's tear apart the dream of getting and working for a better life.

Joe is a journeyman for 15 years and feels he is ready for the next step of buying a business, increase the profits and wants to know how he will be taxed.

And all the left can do is critisize the guy for not having a license which takes a test and a fee to obtain, rip his divorce papers open and go after him personally.

So his wife says he beat her? Wonder why Joe has custody of the boy? Hmmm...

And Biden's house is valued at about 3 million--look it up.

It is amazing that the left follows the Alinsky SOP to make fun and critisize the target person instead of addressing the vlaue of the question.

Obama proclaims that trickle up poverty will get people jobs and better prosperity--News Flash--it won't.

"all the left can do is critisize the guy for not having a license"

No, they've mainly criticized him for not understanding business or taxes enough to know he'd make out better under Obama's plan. And they've also criticized the McCain camp for actually believing a plumber would be netting over a quarter-million dollars a year, and rightly so. It seems Joe, and the McCain campaign, don't know the difference between gross income and net income.

So true Murphy!

Murphy

Joe's taxes would go down under Obama---unless he makes more than 250,000 a year.

Obama doesn't talk about trickle up economy---he talks about educating our youth and health care for everyone. Wealth comes from the bottom up. Did Ford get all his money from rich people, or did he get his money from the labor of poor people and the purchasing power of poor people. People making less than 250,000 a year--even in 1900 dollars.

Where do you think rich people get their money from?

"No, they've mainly criticized him for not understanding business or taxes enough to know he'd make out better under Obama's plan."

Anyone criticizing THESE folks for not knowing?

"Anyone criticizing THESE folks for not knowing?"

They will when and if Obama uses them as an example, and shows ignorance by doing it...like the McCain camp did with Joe the Plumber.

Where do you think rich people get their money from?

per BB

They make it by growing and investing.

But under Obama they won't have anything to grow with since he wants to take it all and spread the wealth.

Obama==trickle up poverty

Murphy

Growing what? I would say that what they invest in is being supported by poor people--things like oil and transportation.

All wealth comes from the bottom up.

Trickle down has been proven unworkable. The people you describe---those who make their money by "growing" something---and investing---are leeches on society---producing nothing of value. Workers produce wealth--labor produces wealth. Investors produce elitests who think they "work" for their money.

Gee, I wonder! If Obama and his minions set out to destroy middle class Joe the Plumber, I wonder what Mr. Obama is willing to do to other middle class folk when he takes office?

To the middle class folk out there...know that Obama is on your side!

"(Rich people) make it by growing and investing.

Murphy shows her ignorance of the Bush tax codes.

"If Obama and his minions set out to destroy middle class Joe the Plumber, "

The Obama camp merely told the truth about how out-of-touch both Joe, and the McCain campaign, are from the truth.

With apologies to HST, Republicans hear the truth, and they think it's Hell.

"Workers produce wealth--labor produces wealth."

We know. That worked really well in the Soviet Union. Time to go now, Bob.

BB--in your dreams!

This is not about Joe the plumber and his divorce or whether he has a license yet.

He has a dream--a dream that BB wants to say is leeching off the poor people--who might find it useful to call a plumber when their sink is stopped up and pouring over to the floor--or their toilet or they need a replumb because a pipe broke under the slab.

This whole story is about what OBAMA SAID.

He wants to grow the gov't (Repubs are guilty but would do is slower and never to the same extent as Obama and the Dems) and leech off people who earn a living and spread the wealth.

THAT is income redistribution, socialism and class warfare.

And then we can all become the gigantic Michigan and Detroit economies over the entire country.

Obama plans to do trickle up poverty--take from the producers of the economy and give to folks who didn't earn it. That is welfare.

No one ever gets a job from a poor person. They get a job from someone who is rich--or at least runs a business--people making over 250k.

They will stop hiring and fire people with the tax hit they will get under Obama.

Great for an economy that is in (or just about) a recession. His policies were tried by Hoover then FDR and caused the recession to go into a Depression and lasted for 10 years until WWII.

"(Repubs are guilty but would (grow the government) slower"...)

How oblivious are you? Bush & the Republicans have grown the government more than Clinton did, and more than any Democrat's wet dream.

"This whole story is about what OBAMA SAID."

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Trouble is, all Joe the Plumber did is expose his ignorance of the tax code, his ignorance of Obama's plan, his ignorance of gross income versus net income, McCain's ignorance of gross income versus net income, and the McCain camp's naive belief a plumber would net over a quarter million dollars a year.

"take from the producers of the economy and give to folks who didn't earn it. That is welfare."

Not paying attention lately? What would you call a trillion-dollar bailout of the Wall Street Welfare Queens?

Murphy

Joe the plumber isn't talking about growing and investing---he is talking about buying a business and working---not sitting on his ass.

Why do you try to confuse the two? Under Obama Joe won't pay as much taxes.

Get it?

Yet?

At all?

Even a glimmer?

Joe is 'working his ass off?'

He never bothered to get the training to make himself a legit, licensed plumber.

He's grossing $40,000 a year when he could have been making twice that as a certified plumber with his own business?

Doesn't sound like that hard of a worker to me.

A more accurate name would be 'Joe the Plumber's Helper'.

"All wealth comes from the bottom up"

Ahhh yes, another gem from bob.

Bob, who pays most of the taxes in this country?
What class is the largest consumer?
Which class buy luxury items?

Oh, oh, wait it's not the bottom.
Bob even you should be able to see it's not a linear model but more of a cycle. It is true that the wealthy do gain some of their wealth from the poor, but it is just as true that the poor require the wealthy to survive.
Denying one side because of you jealousy is what grows into the toxic environment that has allowed the brutal socialist dictators to come to power in the past. It is also the driving force behind obamas campaign, after all an angry mob is easier to control. He knows what he is doing by playing the hatred and jealousy of the lower classes against the few that don't have the numbers to be represented. The masses are eating it up, to the point where all logic is thrown out the window and statements like yours abound. The understanding of economics is a thing of the past now it is a vicious blame game.
No matter how off base the accusations may be because the republicans are in power obama has succeeded in fooling the masses to believe it is their fault. In fact, this is a deep rooted problem stemming from the strangled growth brought on by insanely high business taxes, thanks bill. We were unable to keep up with the growth required to sustain our booming economy and it was deemed ok to sacrifice the growth for the ability to say we had a surplus. This is, in my opinion, one of the driving factors of this time. While there are others such as poor lending practices, overzealous investment, and unscrupulous business practices i think the root problem lies in the weakening of the foundation.
While it may be fun to sat trickle down economics have failed, it simply is not true. When clinton took office he got to sit over the wealth created by those very same "voodoo" economic policies that you deny worked. But by the time he left office he had already started to destroy the benefits that he inherited. Even if you don't believe that wealth trickles down you can't deny that the opposite will. Thus as the saying goes the head was cut off and the body is dieing.
Now there is a push to speed up the process, a push fed by the stoking of the fires of jealousy. This is a counterproductive trend in terms of the economy. However, obama knows well that it is exactly what has been shown to bring power to socialist in the past. He is all to willing to promise the redistribution of wealth and gain the support of those blinded by hatred. I for one man insulted by his expectancy that the american public is to stupid to see the same trend that were a plague on humanity in the last century are his bread and butter.

Has anyone raised the question as to whether
Joe Plummer was a political plant by McCain or
Rove?

I mean I watched him clamber before the
camera the other day and listened to his
highly partisan schpiel, and tried to remain
objective, but if he wasn't getting his talking
points from the G.O.P. and the Rush Limbaugh
Show, then I don't know where he was getting them.

I mean he was the perfect man to thrust this late
into the debate, and to get this much attention
if you're name is John McCain or Sarah (wink, wink)
Palin...

things that make you go, hmmm?

But maybe, maybe, I'm just overanalyzing it all.

Could be that he is just another disgruntled cant
explain why I hate everything even remotely approaching the liberal mindset white guy, who
doesn't even know what liberal means, but knows
that he adamantly hates it because the Right Wing
talkshow circuit has convinced the poor guy that
we are evil bad guys out to get him in some 4th
grade neo-conservative schoolyard playground world.

cough...(grins evily)

And I thought we were all just Americans. Some of
us noticably brighter than others...

On a related note, the Plumbers Union has endorced Barack Obama.

"Has anyone raised the question as to whether
Joe Plummer was a political plant by McCain or
Rove? "

the question was asked in front of the guys house. He had no warning of obamas arrival. He asked a simple question whether or not obama believed in the american dream. Obama said yes, so he followed with asking why then would he punish prosperity, to which obama answered that he would rather take it and decide who it should go to then allow someone to keep the spoils of their toil. I does not matter who the guy is, what kind of TP he uses or what side he parts his hair. The important part in the revelation in obamas own word as to the depth of his socialistic ideals.

"the Plumbers Union has endorced Barack Obama."

Key word, union. Of course the unions support obama, he is in their pocket.

Salamandagator

It is whackos with theories like you have that got us into this mess. The idea that the rtich should get tax breaks---the idea that wealth comes from the rich to the poor instead of the other way around--the idea that a redistribution of wealth is only good when the wealth gets redistributed to the wealthy from the poor---the idea that dergulation of financial instituions is good because they will run the finacial business more effectively than the government.

All failed policies.

You just don't get it.

You never will.

Spout all your nonsense you like.

Facts are you have been proven wrtong by reality.

Wealth comes from the bottom up.
Tell me one rich person who got their money from other rich people. All rich people got rich from the wealth of poor people--even the heirs of rich people--it all came from poor people. Disagree? Name names then.

"Bush & the Republicans have grown the government more than Clinton did, and more than any Democrat's wet dream."

You are surely right about that. Bush is/was a disaster. What conservative admires his administration? We just want to prevent Obama from growing it MORE, and he certainly will if he's elected. Not that any real conservative is excited about his opponent either.

Personally, I think we should start by sweeping out the 535 assholes in Congress who have been squatters in DC for decades, adopt the Fair Tax to eliminate lobbyists, and go from there.

#255 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Yes!
This sounds like a good start.

"Not paying attention lately? What would you call a trillion-dollar bailout of the Wall Street Welfare Queens?"

An act of desperation.

If Joe was in a union he'd be making a living wage instead of eaking out so little he can't even pay his back taxes.

Published: FRIDAY, JANUARY 15, 1993

WASHINGTON: Seeking to explain why he is backtracking on a campaign promise to cut taxes for the middle class, President-elect Bill Clinton said Thursday that the plan was never a major theme in his race for the White House.

Mr. Clinton, speaking at a news conference a day after saying he would have to "revisit" his tax-cut plan, said Americans voted for him because of the "big things" he wanted to do.

The middle-class tax cut, he said, was not among them.

He said he was "absolutely mystified" that the news media had perceived it as a major pledge. In interviews Wednesday, Mr. Clinton said that, because of worsening deficit projections,"I have to put everything back on the table."

Mr. Clinton spoke throughout the campaign of the need to redress declining middle-class incomes during the 1980s. He proposed a tax cut for the middle class nearly a year ago, in New Hampshire, and repeated the pledge frequently.

But in the weeks since his election, two things have changed. The government's estimate of growth of the federal budget deficit over the next five years has grown about $60 billion. Also, the new team of Clinton economic advisers has apparently made new calculations and concluded that the tax cut idea is not tenable if Mr. Clinton wants to reduce the deficit and also move ahead with an "investment" program to revive the economy.

Growing deficit estimates require a president to shift gears, he said, adding: "I think that it would be irresponsible for any president of the United States ever not to respond to changing circumstances."

Before he even took office, Bill Clinton was saying, "whoops, nevermind" about one of the right-leaning promises that convinced Americans he was a moderate. (It took another three years and a Republican Congress to get him to achieve the other, which was welfare reform.)

In January 2009, we will hear the same old song and dance. We will be told the deficit is worse than expected, the need for new spending is too great, and we will be told that the tax cuts will have to be trimmed or eliminated entirely. None of Obama's spending proposals will be tossed aside

HOMER

Next you're going to assert Clinton left us massive debt, a 40% larger budget, and the largest deficits in history for any nation on Earth?

God

"Tell me one rich person who got their money from other rich people."

Do you seriously not understand commerce?
I mean seriously.
First the luxury market is very large in this country. From jewelry to yachts from Lincolns to fur coats.
Yes bob, in fact the rich spend far far more money per person then the poor. when you get it through you thick skull you will come to realize this.

"wealth gets redistributed to the wealthy from the poor"

Commerce is not redistribution.

"The idea that the rtich should get tax breaks"

I have a three letter word for you.
J-O-B-S

"It is whackos with theories like you"

This from bob, Priceless.

When you decide to start thinking and not just spouting socialistic rhetoric the you will see what terrible damage can come from stifling the driving force of our economy, business.

"Commerce is not redistribution."

Of course not...that's what the Bush Tax Codes are for.

"I have a three letter word for you. J-O-B-S"

Which might be a valid point, if we hadn't lost so many jobs under Bush's tax cuts for the wealthiest.

"and we will be told that the tax cuts will have to be trimmed or eliminated entirely. "

We're running the largest deficits known to man since the dawn of time.

What's your solution?

(...other than a tax cut.)

"Next you're going to assert Clinton left us massive debt..."

No he just set the groundwork for the collapsing economy. Is it really beyond so many people that the effects of a economic plan do not come to fruition for years? Just look at it clinton got an economy on the rise to sit over, then 7 years later it started dwindling growth slowed and the markets started going down. Bush has not been able to stop this downward trend, true, but it takes longer to grow then to wither and he did not put into practice the policies that strangled our economy.

"Which might be a valid point, if we hadn't lost so many jobs under Bush's tax cuts for the wealthiest."

Once again the jobs lost were due to the extravagant taxes levied on the very people supplying jobs by the previous policies.

"Of course not...that's what the Bush Tax Codes are for."

Last i checked the wealthy already pay almost all the taxes.

"No he just set the groundwork for the collapsing economy."

What an idiot. Clinton delivered true surplus budgets to Bush's doorstep. Bush & his cronies decided to ignore a domestic warning, invade a country which didn't attack us, and slash taxes on the wealthiest. Blaming Clinton for decisions made by Bush and the Republican majorities would get you laughed out of a freshman Econ class.

"then 7 years later it started dwindling growth slowed and the markets started going down."

Even if you pin the post-9/11 lows on Clinton (not fair, but...) he still more than doubled the DJIA, watching it rise 225%.

Bush, on the other hand: Less Than Zero.

SALAMANDAGATOR

Uh, huh. Sure.

You related to VERNON?

"Even if you pin the post-9/11 lows on Clinton (not fair, but...) he still more than doubled the DJIA, watching it rise 225%."

CORRECTION: the rise was 150%...if the post 9/11 lows are pinned on Clinton. It's 225% when the metric is wire-to-wire.

"If Joe was in a union he'd be making a living wage instead of eaking out so little he can't even pay his back taxes."

Probably not. If he was in a union he might be unemployed because his company went to Mexico. You tryin' to have it both ways, AU?

Tell me one rich person who got their money from other rich people."

I guess you didn't understand the question---someones name should be here.

Do you seriously not understand commerce?
I mean seriously.

Yes, I do--very well. Much better than you obviously.

First the luxury market is very large in this country. From jewelry to yachts from Lincolns to fur coats.

So? That was never the question was it? That was never a factor was it? The question was---where did these people get the money to buy these luxury items---what factors were in play to allow them to make such purchases?

Yes bob, in fact the rich spend far far more money per person then the poor.

How about that. Why is it you righties can never use "then" and "than" correctly? I see it all the time from you guys---is it a toomah? Don't you wish the question was--who spends more money per person---rich people or poor people? The question is--how did they get that money to spend more than the poor--where did it come from? Again---name names.

when you get it through you thick skull you will come to realize this.

When you realize that you never answered the question, you will be making a step in the right direction.

"wealth gets redistributed to the wealthy from the poor"

Commerce is not redistribution.

Of course commerce is redistribution. It is redistribution of goods and services. But that isn't the resistribution in contention here. The redistribution in contention here is taxes. If you make moe money, you get more of the benefits of society---you said it yourself--the rich spend more---that means they get more---that means they enjoy more of what society offers. That being the case--they should pay more for it.

"The idea that the rtich should get tax breaks"

I have a three letter word for you.
J-O-B-S

Ah--a little "gotcha journalism"--very funny. Where did your guy get the money to start the business to create the J-O-B-S? Any ideas?

It is whackos with theories like you

This from bob, Priceless.

If you think I have any whacko theories--be specific. Your personal attack is worthless without a basis for ridicule. Your whacko theories have been proven faulty by reality and wallstreet.

When you decide to start thinking and not just spouting socialistic rhetoric the you will see what terrible damage can come from stifling the driving force of our economy, business.

When you decide to stop living in lala land, thinking money somehow pops into the pocket of rich people without understanding how it really got there, you will start making sense. Until then, your nonsense is playing out on wall street.

#323 | Posted by salamandagator at 2008-10-17 01:14 PM | Reply | Flag

Since when do plumbers commute from Mexico to fix broken pipes under your sink?

"Tell me one rich person who got their money from other rich people."

Ted Kennedy.

Probably not. If he was in a union he might be unemployed because his company went to Mexico. You tryin' to have it both ways, AU?

#331 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2008-10-17 01:32 PM | Reply |

Now if people could just ship their plumbing to Mexico.

Do you see the problem there? How could a plumbing job be shipped to Mexico? Do you think all the plumbers moved there for the better wages?

Ted Kennedy.

#334 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-17 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag

Ted Kennedy got his money from his parents who got it from selling booze to poor people

Basis for Kennedy wealth

Poor people.

"Tell me one rich person who got their money from other rich people."

Ted Kennedy.

#334 | Posted by Danforth

John Kerry
Cindy McCain
Nancy Pelosi

"Since when do plumbers commute from Mexico to fix broken pipes under your sink?"

LOL...they don't. I know you ain't gonna believe this, but my wife has fixed them twice now. Although, it would probably be cheaper to hire the plumber.

"Even if you pin the post-9/11 lows on Clinton (not fair, but...) he still more than doubled the DJIA, watching it rise 225%. "

So are you arguing the in the late 90's it was trending downward"

This would be news to, oh i don't know, EVERYBODY.

"Now if people could just ship their plumbing to Mexico."

Oh oh...BUFFY_BOB's back:

"So are you arguing the in the late 90's it was trending downward""

No, dumbass, I'm arguing you don't know what you're talking about. The economy soared under Clinton, and when leaving office he delivered budgets which allowed Bush & The Republicans to do whatever they wanted.

It turns out they wanted to skim every dime they could, slash taxes on the wealthy, and bog us down on every front: militarily, financially, and domestically. Mission Accomplished!

"Blaming Clinton for decisions made by Bush and the Republican majorities would get you laughed out of a freshman Econ class."

Sorry buddy but thinking that any sitting president has instantaneous results on the economy(baring war)would be the real fallacy.

"Sorry buddy but thinking that any sitting president has instantaneous results on the economy(baring war)would be the real fallacy"

You're right. It took almost 8 years for Bush's disastrous policies to come to fruition.

John Kerry

John FORBES Kerry was born into a rich family. His family was made wealthy by trading between North America and China. Trade whose basis was goods to the common man--the poor. Basis for Kerry's wealth: Poor people

Cindy McCain

Cindy McCain got her money from her Anheiser-Busch distributer father, who made his money selling beer to poor people. Basis for Cindy McCains wealth: Poor people

Nancy Pelosi

Nancy Pelosi's father was a US Congressman. He got his power from the votes of poor people. Source of Pelosi's wealth: poor people.

#337 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2008-10-17 01:40 PM | Reply

Sorry buddy but thinking that any sitting president has instantaneous results on the economy(baring war)would be the real fallacy.

#342 | Posted by salamandagator at 2008-10-17 01:52 PM | Reply |

Talk about Carter when you say that.

"bog us down on every front: militarily, financially, and domestically. Mission Accomplished!"

I won't argue that.

"No, dumbass, I'm arguing you don't know what you're talking about."

Hey, look when you are denying the effects of trend and telling me i don't know what i am talking about, you don't have a leg to stand on.

"Ted Kennedy got his money from his parents who got it from selling booze to poor people. Basis for Kennedy wealth
Poor people."

Poor BoOb can't make a direct argument without first moving the goalposts.

The question was, "Tell me one rich person who got their money from other rich people."

Not FAMILY...PERSON.

Did the poor buy this too bob?
Did they catapult the money to the owners of these types of company?
If you really want to get to the grass tack of it wealth comes from the land, not the people.

"look when you are denying the effects of trend and telling me i don't know what i am talking about, you don't have a leg to stand on."

Trends go up and down. Again, even if you follow your claim if Clinton's "trend" all the way to the post 9/11 lows, Clinton still more than doubled the DJIA, watching it rise 150%. While Bush hasn't even been able to keep it where he inherited it.

Clinton left true surplus budgets to his successor.

Bush is leaving the largest deficits known to man.

You do the math.

"Talk about Carter when you say that."

Look at the chart

Danforth

WTF are you talking about---the point is that all wealth comes from the poor. Not the other way around. Get it DUmmy?

liberal fucks all over the country are about as easy to read as dick and jane

WE KNEW This was coming

the left HAS TO DESTROY THIS MAN and they have to do it quickly.........

he is a possible game changer because he caused obama to let the democrat SECRET OUT OF THE BAG

and of course its no secret but the left cant have their candidate admitting WHAT THEY ARE ALL ABOUT

european socialism.

I REPEAT............"spread the wealth" could be the game changer and joe the plumber is at fault for obama blowing the democrats cover

AND HE MUST BE DESTROYED with the same visciousness that hillary went after BILLS BIMBOS.....

( there......AGAIN>....I can get that sleezabag into ANY SUBJECT IM TELLING YOU......)

stewart was FUNNY LAST NIGHT

showed a pic of joe the plumber and only showed a guy bent over a toilet with the usual ass crack

made me laugh out loud

Did the poor buy this too bob?
Did they catapult the money to the owners of these types of company?
If you really want to get to the grass tack of it wealth comes from the land, not the people.

www.google.com

#348 | Posted by salamandagator at 2008-10-17 02:05 PM | Reply

Yes--the poor bought all that stuff too. If you really want to get to the "grass tack" of it--all wealth comes from the sun--not the land.

Salamandagator

But even if it comes from the land---it comes from the bottom up--not the other way around.

"watching it rise 150%"

My point exactly, watching it, with little to no influence in the majority of his sitting years.

"You do the math."

Ok let go step by step because you obviously don't understand.

Can overtaxing business prohibit growth?
I think that pretty obvious
Would these businesses refuse to grow if the could?
None that i know of
Who increased the tax burden to an almost strangling level?
His name starts with a C
Does a company fail instantly?
Baring catastrophe, nope
Then is the effect of strangling the economy seen in the blink of an eye or over a few years as it pertains to individual business?
A few years
Does individual business contribute to the economy on the whole?
No, unless you consider driving the economy a contribution.
When a business fails due to overtaxing what happens to the jobs?
Gone
What happens to the wages?
Gone
What happen to those that were in the middle class but are now out of work?
Poor

So it comes back down to this.
Do you believe that the economy is effected overnight by a policy change?

Salamandagator

Name five business that went under because of over taxing.

Hint: The answer is none--none ever.

Why? Because taxes are paid by their customers. If they don't have any customers--they go out of business anyway. If customers want something---they'll find the money to pay for it. Do you think buggy whip manufacturers went out of business because of high taxes or lack of customers? Do you think if they raised taxes on beer 400% that people would stop buying beer? Think beer manufacturers would go out of business?

"the point is that all wealth comes from the poor."

BFD. That wasn't the metric, or the question. The fact remains, you had to change the goalposts.

"My point exactly, watching it, with little to no influence in the majority of his sitting years."

*Sigh*

Yet another rightwinger who couldn't make it in a Freshman Econ class.

What...you never heard the phrase "It's the economy, stupid...?!?

"But even if it comes from the land---it comes from the bottom up--not the other way around."

If you want to spit hairs, then yes at some point there was no wealth. Now The upper class is more capable of sustaining life then the lower. And while it is true that the poor do facilitate the wealthy's basic need to some extent that is only a fraction of what in consumed by them. The rest is best deemed luxury which is mostly unattainable by the lower class. This transfer in from the rich to the rich with the poor benefiting both in taxes and in jobs.

Then you hit the perpetual cycle. Rich pay poor, rich pay rich, poor pay rich with every time money changes hand the government taking more and more. It is not a linear equation it is circular in nature you cannot break one part and expect the rest to suffer no consequences. Both rely on the other neither one abe to function without it's counterpart.

Do you understand?
The economy is not just the poor, it is not just the rich, it is not just the middle class but they are all instrumental to the final result. You cannot destroy or even impede one without dramatic effects on the whole.

"Then is the effect of strangling the economy seen in the blink of an eye or over a few years as it pertains to individual business?
A few years"

Yet somehow...you're claiming it takes 8.

Blaming Clinton for the choices of Bush & the Republicans is ludicrous...so by all means, keep it up.

"So it comes back down to this.
Do you believe that the economy is effected overnight by a policy change?"

No...it actually comes down to this:

Do you believe the recent financial meltdown and current fiasco is actually Clinton's fault?

What...you never heard the phrase "It's the economy, stupid...?!?

#359 | Posted by Danforth at 2008

sure have

heard it over and over while it was recovering greatly during the end of the first term of bush 41 but by that time it didnt matter because of media being in tank for clinton not reporting all of it.

only having repeat that stupid phrase..........

and check out records from 1991 and 92 to verify it............

of course it was nothing like this one

"of course it was nothing like this one"

Damn straight. This one will lead to a REAL recession.

Danforth

I made the statement that all wealth comes from the bottom up. I also asked anyone to name a rich person who was made rich by other rich people only. Family members wouldn't count as far as inheritance goes, because it was the overall source of the money that was in question.

Funny that you seem to think that you have the parameters of questions I postulate. The point I was making with both statements it that all wealth comes from the bottom--not the top. If you disagree, come up with something that makes sense.

Tell me a rich person who got that way without getting money from poor people. For your small imagination, the source for inherited money will count, so you don't get confused.

"Name five business that went under because of over taxing."

Your joking right?
Seriously bob do you ever leave you apartment?

See i don't live too far from a reservation.
They don't pay many of the taxes that we have to.
Each time there is a new gas or cigarette tax you see more business close as the prices have driven the customers away. People are unwilling to pay the extravagant amounts that business have to charge.

By the way I have worked for a company that went under due to taxation.

" I also asked anyone to name a rich person who was made rich by other rich people only."

And that would be Ted Kennedy.

" Family members wouldn't count as far as inheritance goes"

Thanks for admitting you're moving the goalposts.

" The point I was making with both statements it that all wealth comes from the bottom"

Again, BFD. That wasn't the specific question.

"Tell me a rich person who got that way without getting money from poor people. "

Michael Milken.

"liberal fucks all over the country are about as easy to read as dick and jane"

Good job. Nothing like a powerful statement to begin a convincing argument.

"WE KNEW This was coming"

Now, where IS that Funny Flag...

"the left HAS TO DESTROY THIS MAN and they have to do it quickly.........

he is a possible game changer because he caused obama to let the democrat SECRET OUT OF THE BAG

and of course its no secret but the left cant have their candidate admitting WHAT THEY ARE ALL ABOUT

european socialism."

Yikes! I wish I had a brush that BIG when I paint the house this weekend. Beyond your wild-eyed ramblings and flailings, there's little to support your contentions. Do keep up the squirming, tho'. It's quite entertaining.

"I REPEAT............"spread the wealth" could be the game changer and joe the plumber is at fault for obama blowing the democrats cover"

Now this isn't even entertaining; it's just pathetic.

"AND HE MUST BE DESTROYED with the same visciousness that hillary went after BILLS BIMBOS.....

( there......AGAIN>....I can get that sleezabag into ANY SUBJECT IM TELLING YOU......)

#352 | Posted by bushlovertwo at 2008-10-17 02:16 PM"

Wow, A Bill Clinton reference/deflection. I'm shocked.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, it appears that what has gotten you (desperate) folks in a twist is you FINALLY (you thought) latched onto a scrap of "good news" only to find it was made of smoke instead of substance. Your are the ones who trotted out this individual. Why attack those who have (correctly) pointed out your "New Emperor" had no clothes. Sling away if you must, but it doesn't change the reality.

Michael Milken.

#367 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-17 02:53 PM | Reply

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Rick Reuben (is he the NYU music producer), Oprah, Carville, O'Reilly, Dobbs, etc...

as joe so aptly put it on the other thread

ITS NOT JOE that has the left in a twit and OUT TO DESTROY THIS MAN

its OBAMAS ANSWER blowing the cover of the dems

they cant have their candidate out TELLING THE TRUTH about liberal socialists presidents and what they do with money earned from tHE PRODUCERS IN This country.........

and that is WHY HE MUST BE REDUCED TO RUBBLE..........

and again......with the same ferocity and hate that hillary went after bills bimbos and rape victims

"Do you believe the recent financial meltdown and current fiasco is actually Clinton's fault?"

I believe his policies are a heavy factor. I believe the market towards the end of the 90'2 tells the same tale. I will admit that this does not take into account the artificial economy inflation that was part of the tech boom, i don't blame this on clinton. I however find it just to far away from reality to rationalize over taxation not slowing the economy.

Do you really believe that this is not the case?
I can understand if your definition of over taxation is different then mine but i have a hard time believing you don't think it has a negative impact.