skeert money?

mccain DID say it was but a tourniquet on a bleeding wound. or something like that.

I would hope they don't have to amputate then.

Poor Bushites. Supported a Loser and it shows. Why were You so stupid to vote for Dubya?? What a sad State of affairs we are in. Thanks Bushites.

Larry

I'm really concerned now, because Corky and Nullifidian said that the bailout would save my 401k.

I'm not surprised that an Iraqi Cream Pie would believe in magic.

What a rip off!

Banks still afraind to lend, in other words, no relief for credit markets. It never fails. Nothing really changed after 9/11, governments have throught history used crises, both real and invented, to take from the people, be it power, freedom, money, etc.

The markets are dropping because stock holders are realizing that Bush will continue as president until January and there is still a tiny chance that John McBush could win the election. As we get closer to the inauguration of Obama things will improve.

Talk about believing in magic!

The markets have come to the sobering realization that the Bush administration's $700 billion rescue plan won't work quickly to unfreeze the credit markets, and that many banks are still having difficulty gaining access to cash. That's caused investors to exit stocks and move money into the relative safety of government debt.

relative safety of government debt.

With an extra $700 billion out there, I would not call it "safe" any longer.

-You learn something new every day.

It is so nice to have an expert source on such matters. Have you and IraqiB been "friends" for very long?

The market are tanking because the controlling interests want them to tank. How else will they capture and consolidate capuital and control of the economy? Only this time, they are not interstested in the american economy, they are going after the other countries economies. Just watch.

You people should really spend a few precious minutes reading up on the circumstances surrounding the crash of '29.

That was a manufactured crash whose sole purpose was; 1)consolidate all the banking interests and capital resources under the umbrella of the controlling families, 2)make america accept the federal reserve system as opposed to the gold standard. That way they can determine dollar value and set finance terms and be able to call in margin loans at will.

This so-called crisis is exactly the same. It was manufactured. Everyone knew that a person making 30k/year couldn't make a 2000/month payment (the payment that was 400 until the interest rates went up. Guess who controlls the interest rates?

As time goes by, independent banks and individuals and foriegn economies find that they can do business cheaper and easier that the big houses and some of them become very successful. Every now and then, you have to crash the system so the controllers can regain control through artificial means, since they can't compete on a level playing field. The problem is that the independents do not have insider knowledge of what the federal reserve is going to do, as the controllers do.

So, America, go back to sleep. Everything is taken care of for you. You have no voice and you have no opinion unless that opinion is to hand the american economy over to a small group of people (which has already happened). Now the rest of the world will do the same.

There is a way to stop this but it will never happen because it requires americans to make sacrifice and actually have a real backbone (as opposed to the one the people pretend to have).

Repeal the bailout, and NOW before greater damage is done.

The conventional wisdom of the legislators and government executives was opposed to the gut feelings of the populace, and subsequent events demonstrated that vox populi should be followed.

The bailout swindle will do very little to bring liquidity to the institutions that hold bad mortgage packages. There was enough social engineering with legislation intended to extend home ownership to people who could not afford it, the Democrat notion that the only reason that there is not more wealth is because of "bad guys" refusing to create it because they being "mean," and wanted people to suffer. This social engineering model has been demonstrated to be wrong.

Now that the profiteers have exploited the situation, they want to keep their paper gains. Let the market fall and the real estate market crash to reduce housing costs and make housing available again at reasonable prices.

The biggest culprit here, the enabler, is the government and social engineering activists. But instead of now assessing blame, recognize that we're going to get hurt with that hurt not being ameliorated by attempting to bail out the profiteers and malefactors to ease their descent. Don't worry about the sharpies. They'll rise again. They are expert economic manipulators, whose exuberance drove them to excess.

They bought bad high risk paper. Let them lose their equities. New sources of capital will be established. In the meantime, foreign holders of American currency will go on a buying spree to gobble up assets at a fire sale. But wait, the value of the American dollar is increasing vis a vis foreign currencies. How do you account for that anomaly.

Let those holding bad paper, sink. As the equities in homes decline more and more paper will be worth less, but not entirely worthless. The homes will be sold for less after being foreclosed. New paper will be issued by more provident lenders. The physical assets are still there.

Banking is a lucrative sector of the economy. There will be replacement sources of credit.

Repeal the bailout.

-The biggest culprit here, the enabler, is the government and social engineering activists.

Yes, don't pay any attention to the men behind the curtain who had to use physicists to package these products,then use insurance by another name to avoid regulation and sell them.

#9 | Posted by danni at 2008-10-06 11:52 AM

The markets are dropping because stock holders are realizing that Bush will continue as president until January ...

... and there is still a tiny chance that John McBush could win the election.

As we get closer to the inauguration of Obama things will improve.

Expect an economic debacle if there is an Obama administration, and a severe curtailment of liberties as an adjunct to attempts to remedy the situation.

Attempts will be made to devise no longer novel economic fixes. We have viewed the excesses of socialism and other idealistic systems, which impose their ideology as a worthwhile goal whatever the cost in suppression of liberties and the killings of hundreds of millions of people, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. And they don't work. It was the removal of stifling restrictions that enabled economic development to occur and assets to be created. But I suppose that we'll go to the poisoned pond again in the hope of getting a drink with catastrophic results.

Johnson, I agree with your fix (repeal the bail-out and let the market fix it) but not the analysis.

Social engineering never exists outside a paradigm of grabbing power, control and money. social engineering is a means to an end and that end is to grab power, period.

Thsi is what we are currently witnessing in real time.

gravity?

Anyone who expected the same people who helped create the crisis and who failed to see it coming to fix it in a week is an idiot.

The bailout is a travesty.

I'm not a conspiracy nut, but I believe we are witnessing the takeover of a one world government -- the "New World Order" as Daddy Bush coined the term.

$800 trillion = fait accompli

#16 | Posted by Corky at 2008-10-06 12:15 PM

-The biggest culprit here, the enabler, is the government and social engineering activists.

Yes, don't pay any attention to the men behind the curtain who had to use physicists to package these products,then use insurance by another name to avoid regulation and sell them.

Honky Johnson don't.

The mechanism, the removal of prudent lending policies by government mandate, mandatory lending to minorities and the poor with coercion of the lenders, was initiated by the social engineers. There were loans made without deposit of any equity by buyers. Loans were made without verification of income, and without evaluation of ability to repay, as a government mandated procedure.

The social engineers undoubtedly were shortsighted, and did not anticipate that the influx of capital would result in increased prices of housing. They also did not anticipate the consequence of their programs as in their zeal and with their sense of euphoria, they were oblivious to systemic contraints on what they initiated.

What to do with only partially secured paper that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac purchased without regard to its value. Hmmm.

This paper was on the market and accorded a worth far above what should have been its actual value, and the smart boys then contrived ways to market it and trade it as if it were worth more than it was with promises of excessive returns and other inducements.

It reminds me of a probably apochryphal story of an old ship that was permanently berthed in the harbor in New York with a cargo of canned sardines in its hold. The players traded the product for some 30 years, and then some novice bought into the ownership chain. He immediately went down to the harbor to view his purchase, and sampled the product. Well, the sardines were spoiled, and stank when the cans were opened. They were not a fit comestible.

The irate novice buyer went to the seller and addressed him with a string of profanities, anticipating an abject apology for the vending this worthless product and expected a willingness to return his purchase price. Instead, the novice buyer received a barrage of reciprocated invective with the seller raging, "You stupid so and so, don't you know that them sardines is for trading, not for eating."

Them securities were worth far less then was apparent, and were created for trading, Corky, and never were intended to represent real value among the cognoscenti. Unfortunately, reality intruded and the little game is at an end. But why bail anyone out in this futile effort to mitigate loss and pretend that the impact can be dampened. It may be delayed for a short time, but the hit will need to be absorbed. Let it be felt by these traders and knowledgeable purchasers of these mortgages, not others.

The Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982 (Pub.L. 97-320, H.R. 6267, enacted 1982-10-15) is an Act of Congress, that deregulated the Savings and Loan industry. This Act turned out to be one of many contributing factors that led to the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s.[1]

The bill, whose full title was "An Act to revitalize the housing industry by strengthening the financial stability of home mortgage lending institutions and ensuring the availability of home mortgage loans," was a Reagan Administration initiative.[2]

The bill is named after its sponsors, Congressman Fernand St. Germain, Democrat of Rhode Island, and Senator Jake Garn, Republican of Utah. The bill had broad support in Congress, with co-sponsors including Charles Schumer and Steny Hoyer.[3] The bill passed overwhelmingly, by a margin of 272-91 in the House.[4]

Title VIII, Alternative Mortgage Transactions, allowed Adjustable rate mortgages [5]

The problem in a nutshell.

Entitlement mentality. And it will get worse under an Obama presidency.

I see, White Boy.

So the fact that some mortgages were faulty to begin with means that the blame lies with attempts to make the American Dream more accessible, and not to the last 8 years of deregulation of activity involving said mortgages that allowed Wall Street criminals to profit?

Go back racism. You are much better at it.

"All in all, I think we hit the jackpot."
-Ronald Reagan

ZING! you win the prize, chris. this type of ponzi scheme is alive and well.

#18 | Posted by Lipzoidial at 2008-10-06 12:34 PM

Social engineering never exists outside a paradigm of grabbing power, control and money. social engineering is a means to an end and that end is to grab power, period.

Thsi is what we are currently witnessing in real time.

By the way, I don't intend "Lipz" to be offensive. If you object to its use, I won't use it again. I had someone with that fragment in his name attending school at the time I did. I didn't know him, but his name was unique and I remember it.

"Entitlement mentality. And it will get worse under an Obama presidency."

Last resort Republican tactic....blame minorities.

Entitlement is just code for B L A C K !

Never ever consider the billionaires and millionaires who were running the banks, corporations, government.

The problem in a nutshell.

Entitlement mentality. And it will get worse under an Obama presidency.

#24 | Posted by anamerican

Uh, huh. Entitlement for corporate greed.

Unless you care to explain how social programs and the Wall Street crash are related I'm gonna have to come back and give you a Funny Flag (closest to 'Ridiculous Flag' available)

I've noticed you are prone to making ridiculous suppositions and statements in general.

danni - so dramatic - it's also code for "white trash" "welfare cases" "mentals" "lowlifes" "lazy bums" and the list goes on.

Entitlements, as in the trillions in unfunded Medicare and Social Security liabilities.

Dayummmmm they are sinking faster than a 1 ton man in a georgie swamp. My God how low will it sink. Dubya the WORST pResident ever bar none

Larry

"Unfortunately, this legislation does not deal with the important question of delivery of other financial services, including securities activities by banks and other depository institutions. But I'm advised that many in the Congress want to put this question at the top of the banking deregulatory agenda next year, and I would strongly endorse such an initiative and hope that at the same time, the Congress will consider other proposals for more comprehensive deregulation which the administration advanced during the 97th Congress.

Thank you all again. I'm very pleased to sign this Garn-St Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982."

-Ronald Reagan

Nanc, we don't call them bums anymore, we call freegans, look at the nooner, I posted a link.

Most folks are choosing to ignore the fact that without the housing bubble created by Greenspan and Bush we would not now have a mortgage crisis. Even if you accepted the poor logic of blaming people who didn't have the credit score or income to buy the properties they did you would still have property that was the collateral of the loans. That would be sold after foreclosure and the majority of that mortgage would be paid off. That is the problem, it isn't so much the default of mortgagees it is the falling value of the collateral. That is a direct result of the artifically created increase in values of most real estate in the US which supplied the equity loans which kept consumers spending and made the Bush economy appear healthy.
You can argue forever about regulations etc, but if property values had not grown so rapidly because of the low interest rates we would not have had the housing bubble, and Bush would not now even be president because we would have been in a recession in 2004.
Ask his Dad, he learned that lesson the hard way and blamed Alan Greenspan for it. Greenspan did not repeat the mistake of keeping interest rates at a reasonable level again.

9,803.05

9751.58

the market is adjusting itself.

Even if you accepted the poor logic of blaming people who didn't have the credit score or income to buy the properties they did you would still have property that was the collateral of the loans. That would be sold after foreclosure and the majority of that mortgage would be paid off.

Danni, not true. The housing prices went up during the time that these loans were given. When these people could not pay their loans, there was a glut on the market of foreclosed homes and the price went down. So the mortgage companies could not collect the principal on these homes.

Oh because a Republican is in charge and the stock market is Tanking it's now just a correction. God love Ya Nanc. Now that was good.

Larry

larry - did you sense my dripping sarcasm?

but - hey! the dollar's up!

"but - hey! the dollar's up!"

That is because the extortionists/terrorists now want 400 billion euros from the EU. Even though the Europeans agreed to work together every country is doing their own thing which affects credit and liquidity in other countries.

Will Asia be next?

No Nanc I always take Your words at face value. Forgive Me for doing so.

I just watched the video interview of the banking regulator who was present during the Keating 5 meetings.

Lincoln Savings & Loan failed because it owned real estate holdings - against the law.

This current mortgage mess is largely analogous. Because of deregulation, banks and other financial institutions created these exotice securities such as 'credit default swaps' that essentially allowed banks to co-mingle their mortgage loan portfolios with risky financial instruments to raise capital.

McCain and his 'former' chief economic adviser, Phil Gramm, made this whole mess possible in the first place.

No wonder they want to change the subject. How ironic that Palin, who's husband was a member of a secessionist group - Alaskan Independence Party, who HATE the United States, and who's former head blew himself up while making a bomb - are now calling Obama's patriotism into question with debunked implications that somehow 8 year old Obama and William Ayers were plotting against the U.S. together.

Laughable but not surprising tactics from a campaign who can't talk about an "economy who's fundamentals are strong" according to McCain of two weeks ago. Guess when your wife's really rich you wouldn't have a clue to begin with, and the only 'Joe Sixpack' you know is your gardener.

"face value"

Funny that in a financial thread you would use that phrase. If I were you I would want the Government to garantee for me the face value of Nanc's words.

...don't pay any attention to the men behind the curtain who had to use physicists to package these products,then use insurance by another name to avoid regulation and sell them. -- #16 Corky

Moment of clarity award.

This wasn't an unknown problem -- it was behind LTCM's collapse in the late '90's, and Warren Buffett referred to these types of securities as "financial weapons of mass destruction" back in 2002.

So now we're giving $700B to Henry Paulson, who did nothing to limit banks' holdings of these instruments, so that he can buy the ones no one else wants to buy. That way the firms that screwed up so badly will have cash to pay off their creditors and continue business as usual (because NOTHING in that bill changes the operating rules).

People wonder why market players don't believe these firms are any sounder than they were before the bailout?

question:

did ANYBODY here have trouble using their bank cards as debit cards this weekend or have trouble paying for goods with checks?

the only way we could make quick purchases this weekend was to use our bank card as a visa card - whuzzup widdat?

i may go to town to see if i can get money out at an atm using my debit card...i'm getting 'spicious...

Forest = The New World Order
Trees = How we got into this current mess.

Shinola = honest and constitutional governance
Shit = what we have now.

"So the mortgage companies could not collect the principal on these homes."

Exactly, and every day the value drops more and increases the size of the problem for those companies. If Greenspan hadn't used interest rates to prop up the Bush economy there would be no big deal about the foreclosures because the properties would still be worth as much as they were purchased for.

...the people who contrived the scheme that provided the opportunity to the slicksters, were the social engineers motivated to accomplish a goal of creating housing assets without recognizing what would occur. Money was piped in and prices rose. -- #22 Johnson

I'm not surprised that an Iraqi Cream Pie would believe in magic.

What a joke. That's EXACTLY what you were calling for with getting this bailout passed. Pure unadulterated magic.

If we don't pass the bailout, the markets are going in the tank!!!! Well we've passed the bailout and they are still going in the tank. So what now super genius? Lemme guess...regulation?

The market is correcting. No amount of bullshit meddling is going to stop it.

Phoenix

Danni, Danni.....true, Greenspan made it possible for some low-interest loans, but the law required banks to meet a "quota" of minority lending. The banks had to make loans for minorities or pay a stiff penalty. That's why the banks were making loans and not asking for down payments, proof of income, etc. Many of them were setting up the loans with balloon payments if a buyer said they couldn't make a payment right away. When payment time came, the homeowners weren't able to make the payment. The banks knew it was coming and were selling the mortgages off as fast as they could because FMae and FMac were backed by the government.

This would have happened regardless of the interest rate. That's why no bank should "sell" a variable interest loan or loan without a down payment and proof of ability to pay.

-The market is correcting.

Ah, God IS self-correcting, eh?

Magic would be believing in some kind of immediate effect from this Bill.

Abysmal ignorance would be believing that doing nothing would have been wise after the problem had evolved into a stranglehold on credit.

C-SPAN is now showing a Congessional Committee grilling the top CEO of Lehman Brothers.

The guy is sweating bullets.

Interesting to watch as he tries to spin his way out of answering.

"Exactly, and every day the value drops more and increases the size of the problem for those companies. If Greenspan hadn't used interest rates to prop up the Bush economy there would be no big deal about the foreclosures because the properties would still be worth as much as they were purchased for.

#50 | Posted by danni at 2008-10-06 01:30 PM | Reply | Flag: BEE-ESS

-law required banks to meet a "quota" of minority lending.

Did the law also require using physicists to come up with complicated financial products based on these mortgages and "insured" by nothing?

No, I think it was 8 years of Repube deregulation that did that.

"CEO of Lehman Brothers.'

His Florida mansion and art collection should be auctioned off!!!

Phoenix, www.drudge.com -- #53 | Posted by Corky

I can't watch the video right now. But remember, I have been apoplectic about the bailout since it was proposed.

What are you up to? Last week anyone who didn't support the bailout was a moron. This week you've seen the light...??

Some dude with 3 names just annouced that no fix would work unless all the world economies acted as one to correct them, saying the problem would bounce from one market to the other.

Welcome to the New World Order, act 2. This is a 3 act play. The third act will be to name the governance body.

Lip, what was the first act, 9/11 or was it 1913, the creation of the Federal Reserve/IRS system?

the crisis peaking on rosh hoshanna. 9/29/08.

Phoenix

Nope. Like Obama and most other responsible Dems, I thought this whole thing was Wall Street's fault, but that it had evolved too far from the original problem to be ignored.

I like Russ Feingold and Dennis the K on economics, and they both voted against the Bill.

But I am not convinced that either would have voted that way had their's been the deciding vote.

Corky, the republican tried multiple times to enforce more regulation on Fmae and Fmac.

If you haven't seen it yet, check out the infamous youtube video that will show you how the Dems condemned further regulation and oversight of Fmae and Fmac.

Bush tried in 2003 and McCain's name was on a bill in 2005 to place more oversight. It has been argued that the Republicans had a majority and could have passed it. True, but a simple majority does not pass a bill especially if you cannot get all of that majority to support it (as evidenced by the House's action last Monday.

the crisis peaking on rosh hoshanna. 9/29/08. --#63 | Posted by nanc

What's your point? That banking crises are a traditional way for Jews to celebrate the new year? Or that markets crash when Jews take a day off work?

"just stop yourself, danni."

NANC I'd love to have a discussion with you but I doubt you are intellectually capable. YOur posting debunked talking points just reinforces my impression of you.

CEO of Lehman Brothers.'

His Florida mansion and art collection should be auctioned off!!!

The guy who made 280 Million dollars since 2008 and still held 20,000,000 share of LB bfore it went tits up?

Oh yeah, and that just fer starters.

Spud hearing all kinds of talk about how Euro govs are now guaranteeing the savings accounts in various banks over there in order to prevent panicky withdrawals but nobody seems to be talking caps like the 100,000 dollar one we're seeing here that some folks want to see pushed to 250,000.

Are there caps there or is it, as advertised, in toto?

Won't that lead to mass movements of monies electronically into these banks if that's the case?

Why is England holding out on that strategy to date?

Spud aint got no answers here but does got a shitload of questions.

Be Well.

I am no financial brain, admittedly.

but the problem seems to me to be when the stock market went from investing in something real to investing in something unreal.

no, phoenix - it's simply easier for me to see EVERYTHING from a biblical perspective. we've been duly warned.

Massachusetts is now asking the Feds for money. I say give it to them, in exchange, they have to accept wind farms, even if they block the nice view.

Don't you guys understand?
Bushie had nothing to do with it!
It was that damned Liberal(what's his name?)-Oh! George Washington!

Sincerely-Nanc & Co.

nanc

did any government regulation FORCE any lending institution to enter into any mortgage?

no, phoenix - it's simply easier for me to see EVERYTHING from a biblical perspective. we've been duly warned.

#70 | Posted by nanc

Now it's God's fault???

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

9733.36

no but god predicted it but you have the free will to make it do otherwise, just remember that

9724.52

frank - i don't blame this on God.

9733.42

yeah that's god take credit for the good, no responsiblity for the bad

kind of like a wall st ceo or a republican.

9698.56

Many CEOs think they are god.

Truth, read an exercpt from this article:

Under Clinton, bank regulators have breathed the first real life into enforcement of the Community Reinvestment Act, a 20-year-old statute meant to combat "redlining" by requiring banks to serve their low-income communities.

The administration also has sent a clear message by stiffening enforcement of the fair housing and fair lending laws. The bottom line: Between 1993 and 1997, home loans grew by 72% to blacks and by 45% to Latinos, far faster than the total growth rate.

Lenders also have opened the door wider to minorities because of new initiatives at Fannie Mae and Freddie Macthe giant federally chartered corporations that play critical, if obscure, roles in the home finance system.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac buy mortgages from lenders and bundle them into securities; that provides lenders the funds to lend more.

In 1992, Congress mandated that Fannie and Freddie increase their purchases of mortgages for low-income and medium-income borrowers. Operating under that requirement, Fannie Mae, in particular, has been aggressive and creative in stimulating minority gains. It has aimed extensive advertising campaigns at minorities that explain how to buy a home and opened three dozen local offices to encourage lenders to serve these markets.

Most importantly, Fannie Mae has agreed to buy more loans with very low down paymentsor with mortgage payments that represent an unusually high percentage of a buyer's income. That's made banks willing to lend to lower-income families they once might have rejected.

Like Obama and most other responsible Dems, I thought this whole thing was Wall Street's fault, but that it had evolved too far from the original problem to be ignored. -- Corky

Well, I agree with everything you wrote there except the Obama spin. As angry as I was, I had accepted the bailout was worth a shot.

Then I saw the bill. It does NOTHING to fix the underlying problems. It just enables the same gamblers to go back to business as usual.

Believing that terrorism is a serious problem that needed to be addressed made the Iraq invasion LESS sensible, not more sensible.

But heck, sooner or later the Bush administration's losing streak has to end, right? So let's give them $700B with no strings attached...

th - we are responsible for our own actions.

9638.66

9643.76

there is no doubt that the pressure was coming from the feds to reduce the requirements but money was to be made.

everyone was at fault

no we are screwed.

9597.08

down 700 today and dropping

"9638.66"

Aw that's nothing. That's just a great buying opportunity.

Sincerely,
Vernon and RightisRight

th - calm yourself. it's only money. probably not worth the paper it's written on.

well, no, not probably - definitely not worth the paper it's written on.

well it eventuallywill be a buying opportunity

the key is timing, will it bottom at 9,000 8,000, 6,000

the bottom will be around 3,000 to 4,000 in my opinion

look at this

There is plenty of panic selling and very few buyers, interesting times. Commodities are also down, including gas and oil. My bags full of penny rolls will be worth something again.

yeah I should remain calm, just watching my life savings, my retirement account, everything I have worked hard for years disappear nothing to worry about.

My bags full of penny rolls will be worth something again.

yeah you can hit somebody over the head with em and steal their shoes

see, th - you can find some humor in this debacle and i'm giving you an ff for your #93!

Hahahahahaha. What a perfect day for the Obama campaign to raise the Keating 5 issue.

Most folks are choosing to ignore the fact that without the housing bubble created by Greenspan and Bush we would not now have a mortgage crisis

----

The air from the dot-com bubble was just transferred to the housing bubble. You could argue that without the dot-com bubble there would have been no housing bubble...at least not as big as it was.

"9638.66"

Pass an inflationary bailout and everyone can be a billionaire...just like Zimbabwe!

-Null and Corky

"9638.66"

Pass an inflationary bailout and everyone can be a billionaire...just like Zimbabwe!

-Null and Corky

Does that mean Obama will be in power for 28 years or more?!?!

In Zimbabwe they had to remove what 11 zeros from their currency?!

"That's made banks willing to lend to lower-income families they once might have rejected."

Doesn't matter who they loaned money to, how much they earned, what their credit history was....those loans were still secured by the property that was mortgaged. When the value of the property fell it left both home buyers and the banks that owned the mortgages without the proper equity value to support that mortgage whether still being paid or defaulting.
The property values dropping is what is converting this from an unfortunate situation for possibly irresponsible buyers to a disaster for the entire economy.
The Bush apologists, like Anamerican, are trying to pick apart details of small parts of the problem and then dishonestly pretend that is the real basic issue of this crisis. Perhaps some that post these talking points don't know better but I think many are just dishonest McBush supporters.

"That's made banks willing to lend to lower-income families they once might have rejected."

Doesn't matter who they loaned money to, how much they earned, what their credit history was....those loans were still secured by the property that was mortgaged. When the value of the property fell it left both home buyers and the banks that owned the mortgages without the proper equity value to support that mortgage whether still being paid or defaulting.
The property values dropping is what is converting this from an unfortunate situation for possibly irresponsible buyers to a disaster for the entire economy.
The Bush apologists, like Anamerican, are trying to pick apart details of small parts of the problem and then dishonestly pretend that is the real basic issue of this crisis. Perhaps some that post these talking points don't know better but I think many are just dishonest McBush supporters.

we can call him baby doc obama, potus for life.

The Bailout only does one thing, mitigate civil lawsuits for the perpetrators of the crime of fraud. This includes Paulson, who is in charge of the bailout. Talk about a fox in the henhouse, the level of criminal activity is unprecedented, and so typical for BushCo.

It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observor that no problem other than this has been addressed. Nothing else has been accomplished, as usual.

probably the worst thing about a slowdown is the annoying phone calls from salesmen looking for work from me

9558.30

9,534.72

danni - stop yourself. honestly, there's enough blame to go around - ten times over. we need a do over in wa. everybody from the janitors on up need to be let go and tried for specific crimes.

i'm so glad i find no peace in money.

9569.37

do you find peace in eating? having a roof over your head? the lights on? education for you kids?

I think the presidents Working Group on Financial Markets has been artificially holding up the stock market by injecting billions and billions into it.

(We are talking about billions and billions.. the last two injection I know about is $180 Billion on Sep 18th 2008 and $630 Billion on Sep 29th 2008)

Who are these people in this group? Lets name names here.

* Henry Paulson - Sec Treasury
* Ben Bernanke - FED Chairman
* Christopher Cox - SEC Chairman
* Walter Lukken - CFTC Chairman

Perhaps what is happening now is that this group (now that they have their bailout bill passed and their new found powers) is no longer holding up the market.

What happens if they stop injecting money into the market? Stocks will tank and the government now has the ability to seize failing corporations and give them to ... you got it the companies will be owned buy FEDERAL RESERVE MEMBER BANKS like JP Morgan. They can then pass the bad debt on to you and the good assesses on to themselves.

.. and Congress let them do it.. Hell they even encouraged it.. We need to wake up here and get with the program.. America is being sold right before our eyes and the people appear to be powerless to stop it. Some smart people out there need to figure out how the people can force the government to act upon itself peacefully, we need to bring these people in front of a grand jury.

i have all those things, th. and you forget - if all else fails, we are a family that knows how to survive it all.

p.s. - th - those things are a result of the peace i have - if they all disappeared, i would still have the peace.

"danni - stop yourself. honestly, there's enough blame to go around - ten times over."

Oh good, the old "both parties are just as bad as each other" talking point. Then don't bother to vote at all then Nanc, Me...I'll be voting Democratic. Fact is, there is a huge difference between the parties, the Dems aren't perfect but they haven't been openly conducting a class war for thirty years.

I guess I mistated, peace is fine, but I would prefer to be peaceful with a house over my head, food in my pantry, my kids through college all paid for with my savings, which are now being wiped out.

I'll be voting Democratic. Fact is, there is a huge difference between the parties, the Dems aren't perfect but they haven't been openly conducting a class war for thirty years.

Mission Accomplished.

careful there, danni...

i am sorry, th, really - our family doesn't have as much to lose monetarily as yours, i'm sure, but we did see this coming for a very long time. our faith has sustained us in trying times and we've had quite a few. i've had a difficult time even cashing a check since last friday and the money's there, but the computers in the stores are messed up! and no, we're not the type to take handouts of ANY kind.

Vote for whatever false choice you want, Obama and McCain are both in on it.. vote either way, jack will change.. in the meantime while your rallying people to vote for Obama, I'll be stocking fuel, food, and ammo.

9793.03

I am diversified and everything is taking a hit, harshly.

Fortunately I have enough AR to make things comfortable, but the spending will be cut back.

the real pain is not in the current but in the retirement savings, I was hoping to have a few years without work.

Bush 1 = War, Recession and a Bailout

Bush 2 = Huge War, Recession and a Massive Bailout

Looks like Bush can finally look Daddy in the eye and say 'I beat ya'.

"and no, we're not the type to take handouts of ANY kind."

Hope that things never get bad enough that you are forced to. We are quite self-sustaining in my family as well. However, I don't look down on those who need assistance to feed children these days. I honestly don't know how many young families are making it. I guess really many aren't.

Truth, want some advice? Silver is at $11 an ounce right now.. it has not yet jumped up. If I had anything left, I would get some bars. Get the hard metal no "inventing" in silver stocks, it could go as high as $20 an ounce here.

Yeah, I'm reposting from the Nooner. Bounce me and I come back as "101" ...

The daily alarm from my mainstream daily corporate blat:

"Despair about a weakening global economy is sweeping across Wall Street, propelling the Dow Jones industrials down more than 700 points. Investors around the world have been selling off stocks as they come to realize that financial systems in the United States and other countries need more than government bailouts to fix them."

Might it be time to revive - as mere conversation fodder, mind you - those archaic economic philosophies that leave our rigid righties sputtering with rage? I know it will draw more viciousness about my advanced years ... but is it possible that hallowed GOP-style free market capitalism doesn't cut it? herm

"Looks like Bush can finally look Daddy in the eye and say 'I beat ya'."

And John McCain has Daddy issues too. People should consider that when they vote. The WH is not the place to work out Oedipal complexes.

Also Truth, Your stocks could go to zero, the dollar could be worth dirt, but gold and silver will always hold a decent value.. you may not "win" in commodes, but you wont loose either.

The root of all roots is libs trying to turn poor people into normal middle class people by giving them below prime mortgages. This idea goes back to the sixties when they talked about low income housing, affordable housing, community re-investment, minority housing goals, etc, and manifested inself in pieces of legislation that forced banks to loan money to people who were not qualified. SURPRISE! SURPRISE! They couldn't pay and their homes were forclosed on.

ThOSE SAME PEOPLE fucked up their own neighborhoods and now want to bring our neighborhoods down to their level. They fucked up their schools too. They will never be like normal middle class people because they are stupid. WE NEED A ROOT CANAL!!!

"They couldn't pay and their homes were forclosed on."

So what!, The bank should be able to reposess the property and sell it for all or nearly all of the amount of the mortgage....but uh-oh....the property has significantly fallen in value and is now not worth anywhere near the mortgage amount.
So the defaulted mortgage put the irresponsible buyer on the street but that didn't destroy the value of the home.
No, that was done by the slight of hand of Greenspan raising interest rates after allowing the bubble to build for several years with extremely low interest rates.
Hey, Bush got reelected in 2004, the economy looked fine to those who don't question how it can be when it is bleeding jobs and offers stagnant wages.
If you want to continue the ignorant and ridiculous attempt to deflect the blame away from the architects of this disaster fine but the folks who engineered it are pinching themselves, they really can't believe people are really dumb enough to buy it.

danni - i don't look down my nose at people less fortunate than we. we are quite charitable and would help anybody in need - within our means, of course. there are a multitude of programs to feed hungry children - angelfoodministries.com for one - affordable food for anybody. food stamps. food closets. don't turn the needs of others around on me - i'm not the martyr type.

Step out of the room for a moment and suddenly you're overwhelmed.

First - and I know I'll regret asking - I want to know how Nancy's "faith" made her stronger in troubled times. Faith in WHAT - and HOW did that translate in the old exchecquer?

I do notice a touch of resignation from the most rigid righties today. I know they're printing up their Impeach Obama bumper stickers and honing their finest racial epithets even as we speak, but in the immortal words of the immortal Rodney King, can't we just get along? "Give Barack a chance." herm

herm - our faith in God is stronger than we are and we are better people for it - you notice, i'm not the one falling apart here.

-Pass an inflationary bailout and everyone can be a billionaire...just like Zimbabwe!

Well, it may be that way where you are from there in Zimbabwe, but no one here, other than a few of the less lucid posters like yourself, thought there would be any billionaires made from this Bill.

One might, however, easily imagine a 2000 point drop had nothing passed Congress.

I think tomorrow night's debate will be sort of interesting and I would imagine it will focus some time on the tanking economy. I think McCain's negative ads will be in our consciousness and it will end up making him look like disconnected from the crisis and more cynical and ambitious.

You're almost asking the right questions Danni...

the property has significantly fallen in value and is now not worth anywhere near the mortgage amount.

Why is that? Artificial demand was created by encouraging lending to those which cannot afford it.

So the defaulted mortgage put the irresponsible buyer on the street but that didn't destroy the value of the home.

That's the point of the bailout, to artificially inflate the value of these homes.

No, that was done by the slight of hand of Greenspan raising interest rates after allowing the bubble to build for several years with extremely low interest rates.

So you support Obama and his ilk who want to give more power to the people who created the problem in the first place? You can't blame the Fed, and suggest that the solution is to give more power to the Fed.

No, that was done by the slight of hand of Greenspan raising interest rates after allowing the bubble to build for several years with extremely low interest rates.

@#127 | Posted by danni

Yes, you are correct.

Nobody has been talking about the REAL problem and that is the real source of the problem.

Instead what you have been getting is.. from the debates.

"Candidates: was the economic crises the fault of dumb people who took loans, or dumb people who offered them?"

Neither, those people acted in what they believed was their own best interest. right or wrong they were dealing with an aspect they did not control and that was government intervention in the market.

There are many reasons for this.. but the primary reason is dropping the interest rate from 6% down to 1% just after 9/11. That will always cause malinvestment somewhere in the market, it will cause some bubble to be created when credit is creeper than the market would normally offer.. it just so happened it was in housing due to other factors.

Nobody ever talks about this.. however Bush himself mentioned it in his explanation on Sep 24th.

Bush: "This large influx of money to U.S. banks and financial institutions, along with low interest rates, made it easier for Americans to get credit. These developments allowed more families to borrow money for cars, and homes, and college tuition, some for the first time. They allowed more entrepreneurs to get loans to start new businesses and create jobs. Unfortunately, there were also some serious negative consequences"

Notice he does not say how those interest rates got so low.. well.. its BECAUSE YOU SET THEM SO LOW!

OK I think we have it covered Republicans are from the Devil and Democrats are Satan's spawn. Rich people are scum sucking maggots and poor people are maggots sucking scum. Did I cover everything?

Good, now doe anyone notice the incredible 500 or so point bounce? (dead cat?)

It just seems strange. Anyone in know about the Pluge Protection Team?

One might, however, easily imagine a 2000 point drop had nothing passed Congress.

Thank god there's absolutely no chance of that happening now... I mean, its not like we aren't already down a thousand since the bailout passed.

Why it SOARED to 10,010.14!
-BLT

Lip, what was the first act, 9/11 or was it 1913, the creation of the Federal Reserve/IRS system?

#62 | Posted by member2586

1913. but no one cares. We don't have time for thinking, we've got to figure out some way to blame this on the 'other' party.

Aw come on, the market's only down ~4,000 points in the last year!

"Notice he does not say how those interest rates got so low.. well.. its BECAUSE YOU SET THEM SO LOW!"

JAYDEE that makes two of us that are looking at the real cause of the crisis instead of the peripheral issues which are related but not the direct causes of the crisis. Even with deregulation, even with rules designed to make it easier for low income people to buy homes, if interest rates would have been kept at a reasonable amount virtually none of these mortgages would have been made because the payments would have been far too high from the very get go.
Greenspan is being allowed to escape the blame he richly deserves by politicians more interested in blaming each other.

Ah so, magic and absolute guarantees. No wonder you wander around looking so disappointed.

@140 | Posted by danni

Yes, only one thing to add.. Greenspan lowered it but it was Bernanke raised them.

He had to however.. if he didn't the dollar's value would plummet.. and it was as that's why the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US. This "fix" however that they have now creates even more inflation so. It's a tangled mess of shit, but the source is the Federal Reserve.

It is not a good thing that the stock market is falling but it also wasn't a good thing for it to rise so far either. The benefit to the economy of putting so much money into the gambling which is most of what the stock market does isn't really very much. Instead of building factories to build cars, alternative energy producing infrastructure, etc. billions were invested into stocks. I think the idea that it is a good idea to have low capital gains taxes is brought into question when we now consider how much good all that investment could have done on real entrepreneurial investments into tangible assets which would now be eliminating our need for imported oil. We need a tax code that directs investment into the needs of the nation and not instead encouraging investment into casino type investment.

"Yes, only one thing to add.. Greenspan lowered it but it was Bernanke raised them."

I wouldn't want Bernanke's job, he is stuck with dealing with the problems Greenspan created.

Our taxes go to pay the interest on the debt we already owe, none of it goes to pay the principle.. The government doesn't have any real money, they are in debt to the hilt already.. but apparently they think not enough.

Incidentally.. while we are pointing fingers.. 40% of that debt the government can't pay is owned by the Federal Reserve.. how nice.

This shit is so screwed up, the more you research this the further down the rabbit hole of greed and corruption it goes, the system is so broken and fucked up now I have no hope of of the U.S. ever fixing it.

Like I said before, our elected officials should be in leg chains for treason right now. They violated the will of the people and sunk us into a debt we will never escape from, their solution to all of this HAS got to to be to socialize everything and that will lead us to a fate no better than the USSR. How long this will be before that happens I don't know, I'm sure they can keep this up awhile.. but there appears to be no escape from it. The governments debt only gets worse when you look at the fact that baby boomer's are now going to be collecting social security.

Whats worse is the ramping up of the police state with things like the Patriot Act. I think we are going to have some very dark times facing us.

We are done for but pay attention so you can tell your grandchildren.

Ah so, magic and absolute guarantees. No wonder you wander around looking so disappointed.

Yeah, well don't break your arm patting yourself on the back because you "did something". It must feel amazing to see how the bailout is truly making a difference.

now* happened to us

JAYDEE we are going to have to listen to FDR for answers. It rhymes with ax the itch.

It is reasonable to assume that the stock market would be in worse shape today without the bail-out. But the stock market isn't even the major indicator here, the credit market is.

Wanna look at those numbers?

Just because some of us were willing to take the medicine that 90 percent of the doctors prescribed, even though we didn't like the taste of it, doesn't mean that the do-nothing, snake-handling whiners were right.

JAYDEE we are going to have to listen to FDR for answers. It rhymes with ax the itch.

#149 | POSTED BY DANNI

---------

Translation. Tax small business into the ground.

@#149 | Posted by danni

That *is* what they will do, only worse however.. We must agree on the cause but disagree with the "solution" as I think the great society (1910 - 1935) was when America was first put on this path to the invertible destruction I described.

Once government became the solution to every problem it started to gobble up more and more and more, it can never be reduced now. Was it Goldwater who said, "a government big enough to give you everything you want, will eventually take everything you have."

Once economic freedom dies in America, social freedom will soon follow, they are inseparable. For how can you say you are free when every decision about where you work, how much you make, what business you can start, who you can sell to, where you live is made by the government? You can't. For example: government will soon control the economics of health care and then it will be able to control your social life by being able to control your diet and mandate exercise... why? because it will affect us all. We are going to be slaves.. Then if history holds.. it will get to a point where some 300 years people will be so controlled that they kill their leaders in government and start the cycle over again.

Corky, you idiot. You sold the nation to the banks.

Well.. no, you have no control, none of the people apparently do anymore but your so ignorant and blind you now support it.

You've fucked us all.. good job.

Sorry, JD

That one will fuck you, but then, neither will I.

That NO one will

(damn, hate when I do that)

The markets are tanking because Obama is leading in the polls. Imagine how far it will tank if he wins the presidency. Wall Street is scared crapless of this incompetent and inexperienced windbag.

-Wall Street is scared crapless of this incompetent and inexperienced windbag.

So that's why they gave more money to him than anyone else. I was wondering why that was.

"The root of all roots is libs trying to turn poor people into middle class (with) below prime mortgages. "

WRONG, Thommy! The root of roots is the greed and corruption about which your friend Sarah prattles. The REPUBLICAN greed and corruption that puts the profits of bad loans ahead of people, without even considering the outflow of US jobs. herm

When Jim Cramer, the stock guy on tv, pushes you to get out of the stock market rather
than hang tight, things aren't looking too good.

Jim just wants to buy your stocks cheap.

The markets are tanking because Obama is leading in the polls. Imagine how far it will tank if he wins the presidency. Wall Street is scared crapless of this incompetent and inexperienced windbag.

#157 | Posted by utastaff at 2008-10-06 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Point taken from one of the DR's hermaphroditic douchetits.

"Markets are tanking because Obama is leading. Imagine how it will tank if he wins."

Of this I am sure: The day after he's elected, it will SOAR... herm

Assuming, of course, that any market is left. herm

Couple the stock market crash with the millions of jobs lost under Bush's free trade globalism scam and our country has a real problem.

People could maybe ride out their stocks going down, 30% cuts in their 401ks, but not if they are also unemployed and needed to cash in their stocks and pension plans in order to make it thru times of unemployment. It's a double whammy.

MILLIONS of jobs lost under Bush's reign due to pure Republican corporate greed and their lust for cheap third world labor at the cost of American jobs.

Bush's legacy = total destruction of the U.S.

Oh I like these posts #157, and #159.

Go red team! Go blue team! YAY!

--

Look you two better wake up.. they are both owned by the same person. The fight is fixed guys. Obama and McCain both sold America out. They are false choices, they are two trains going to hell they are just taking diffrent routes.

It's a ONE party system, don't you see that by now? They talk about minor shit to keep you distracted but they both want the same things. More war, more bailouts, more spending, less freedom for you.

CALIFISCRAP,

Whoever the hell Jum Cramer is, he sounds like the type who didn't notice that the market is off 40% already and may have bottomed out. He along with the novices is panic selling at the bottom when wiser investors are buying.

You and Cramer should get back on your surfboards and catch that legendary wave and leave the market to real men!

Oh goody!

Now JD can tell us what his specific solutions are for the American political/financial system.

What will it be, we wonder anxiously? Libertarianism? A French 200 party system? Anarchy?

What!? You mean JD has no solution? He just whines and bitches and says a pox on both your houses?

How.... expected.

Oh goody!

Now JD can tell us what his specific solutions are for the American political/financial system.

What will it be, we wonder anxiously? Libertarianism? A French 200 party system? Anarchy?

What!? You mean JD has no solution? He just whines and bitches and says a pox on both your houses?

How.... expected.

He'll give you the real answer, but you refuse to hear it. You would much rather give the inmates the keys and pretend as though you've done something positive.

You are discussing things like your living in a Democracy, where the people have choices.. NEWS FLASH the Democracy is GONE! It's been replaced by a type of fascism called corporatism.

The people exercised their power over the government, they told their representatives NO FUCKING BAILOUT. The vote totals were 50% NO and 50% HELL NO, and they still passed it by a huge margin. We don't control the government anymore the banks and wall street control it now not you.

The elite runs candidates that are 90% similar to give you the illusion of a choice, but its the same overall direction.

Your solution? Dissent! Vote against it, any 3rd party vote will do, I don't care if its green or libertarian.. just stop consenting to them.. some 605 of the people in America don't vote and the ones that do vote.. about half or better of them are holding their nose or voting against the other guy.. it's not a democracy if less than a quarter of the people actually like the person they are voting for.

not 605 - "60%" * I hate when I do that. heh.

I see that I was correct. All whine, no solution.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but to read some of the geniuses here is comical.

tell us dr left, why are the forgn. markets down 37% this year, is that GW's fault too?????

From my experience institutional money is run WORSE then retail investors..AND Wall Street does a horrible job with their "advice". They have buy ratings on something all the way down, and when it hits bottom they hank their opinions, go neutral or even sell.....just when they lose their nerve. The markets have a knack of causing confusion amongst the majority of investors....

Obama voted yes on this garbage as well. Bush = Obama = McCain. More of the same with either of those 3 assclowns. If Obama was really about change, he would have voted no on the Wall street bailout.

tell us dr left, why are the forgn. markets down 37% this year, is that GW's fault too?????

I don't know how big a portion of this global meltdown is involved, but I heard a couple days ago that many banks and financial institutions overseas had bought up a lot of those bundled mortgage securities issued by U.S. banks and lending institutions.

Apparently as soon as these subprime mortgages were made Countrywide and others bundled them into mortgage securities and sold them to someone else ASAP -- both here and overseas.

I find it hard to believe that even with billions in subprime loans, that ALL of this economic mess is due entirely to the housing/mortgage mess. I think we could have probably bought up every bad mortgage there was and not even come close to having to give a $800 trillion bailout. There had to be some other typr of money shenanigans taking place in addition to the subprime loans.

Anythoughts on my last statement?

btw -- what exactly is a hedge fund?

He'll give you the real answer, but you refuse to hear it.

#169 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

Your solution? Dissent! Vote against it, any 3rd party vote will do, I don't care if its green or libertarian.. just stop consenting to them.. some 60% of the people in America don't vote and the ones that do vote.. about half or better of them are holding their nose or voting against the other guy.. it's not a democracy if less than a quarter of the people actually like the person they are voting for.

#170 | Posted by JayDee

I see that I was correct. All whine, no solution.

#172 | Posted by Corky

--

Your right IraqiBukkake. Corky just can not accept it.. He builds a wall up in his mind that his world view depends on. Republicans are the bad guys Democrats are good guys and that is all there is to it.. He can not accept that both parties are on the same team. Corky is just like those Bush loving left hating people out there that will lie to themselves over and over because they can't accept reality. I think its a waste of time to argue with people like that, is just ignore them and move on to other people.

If you don't want to listen to me, because I'm a bad libertarian (I'm actually not even but.. again I can't change your mind on shit) Then listen to the far left feminist Naomi Wolf who is saying pretty much the exact same thing I am.

Your right IraqiBukkake. Corky just can not accept it.. He builds a wall up in his mind that his world view depends on.

Would you expect anything less from a rabid Shillary supporter? :)

The global market got screwed with repackaged mortgages covered by worthless swapes (unregulated, zero capital reserve "insurance"). Screwed to the tune of $56 trillion. FWthom's claim that its ALL on account of forced lending in poor neighborhoods is a trojan horse.

The bailout was designed by Paulson to prevent civil lawsuits of his former employer and others, who are striving to reinvent their business, as FDIC ventures after being covered as such without ever paying in. That part is a done deal. The next President will have to solve the actual problems, which will be far more expensive than indicated to date.

Shrub didn't do this by himself, it took a deregulatory conspiracy, but he did speed things up unexpectedly, or maybe Wall Street wants Obama so bad, they sped it up themselves.

The plan is to let all the thieves go free and fuck the American Taxpayer. This never fails, in part because the public has such short memories, and can't get off their treadmills long enough to figure out what's going on.

... Republicans are the bad guys Democrats are good guys and that is all there is to it. He can not accept that both parties are on the same team...

The Democrats and Republicans are merely two heads belonging to one snake. There are some decent men and women in Congress (the ones who voted "no" on the bailout swindle) but there are not enough of them.

ANY person who voted "yes" needs to be voted out of office.

McCain AND Obama both voted "yes" for the bailout bill which is why I have decided to vote for someone who's with a third party. This bailout vote was their one chance where each of them could make a stand and have Americans believe that there was going to be change from the usual corruption but BOTH of them blew it. Both folded like the corporate whores they are. There will be NO "change and hope" with either man.

What we are seeing now is corporate facism -- pure and simple.

Shrub didn't do this by himself, it took a deregulatory conspiracy, but he did speed things up unexpectedly, or maybe Wall Street wants Obama so bad, they sped it up themselves.

Bush had plenty of help and he let corporations have carte blanche when he allowed DEREGULATION -- the corporate scheme that brought us this mess.

You can put major blame on Republican Senator Phil Gramm who slipped a 200 plus page bill into a 10,000 page must-pass Omnibus bill back in 1999. Gramm's bill shredded all previous regulations and rules for bankers and investment firms allowing them to pull all kinds of sleezy tricks like giving loans without verifying credit, allowed them to push uneducated and poor people into loans -- things never allowed before Gramm's bill.

Even if Bush himself did not start the deregulation train he and the other Republicans had 8 years to stop it and rein it in but they didn't. They are corrupt and nothing but cheats and frauds.

>i>#25 | Posted by Corky at 2008-10-06 12:59 PM

I see, White Boy.

So the fact that some mortgages were faulty to begin with ...

Who and where? Well, 81% of the defaulters are minorities. Does that have any significance for you, or is it just a random factoid?

The bad loans were commanded to be made by the social engineers, who threatened the lenders with disabling sanctions if they did not comply. These same social engineers empowered Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to purchase these bad loans, package them, and sell them so as to sustain the process over an elongated period of time.

,,, means that the blame lies with attempts to make the American Dream more accessible,

... and not to the last 8 years of deregulation of activity involving said mortgages that allowed Wall Street criminals to profit?

Go back racism. You are much better at it.

And yes Corky, these loans became a bonanza as economic activity boomed and the incentives for all involved was to make and process sales, loans, construction, and the like and prosperity was everywhere, even in allied industries and among the population in general.

The mechanism created enabled a paper financial structure that is now out of kilter to grow and grow. And it was self-perpetuating as the inducements were there for everyone to eagerly participate.

"the inducements were there for everyone to eagerly participate."

Not everyone participated. Why should everyone bail out those who participated and profited?

"Well, 81% of the defaulters are minorities."
#180 | POSTED BY JOHNSON AT 2008-10-06 06:52 PM

Really? Just last week you posted:

"91% of the low defaulters are minorities"
#53 | POSTED BY JOHNSON AT 2008-09-29 10:59 AM

Will it be 71% next week, or is this just another one of those rumors you can't be bothered to substantiate?

#129 | Posted by herm at 2008-10-06 03:35 PM

... in the immortal words of the immortal Rodney King, can't we just get along? "

Give Barack a chance." herm

Would you take a chance by going to a doctor, who had such an unorthodox approach to the practice of medicine that it would endanger you? Why then would you put power over you in the hands of an apparently narcissistic individual suffering from borderline personality disorder in the tradition of traditional ideologically inspired authoritarians such as Stalin, Hitler, and Mao, who used -isms as a vehicle foracquiring power, and who killed hundreds of millions of people. Obama is an extremely dangerous individual, and even now a cult of the personality is forming around him as he is imbued with virtue and his vices are denied. His followers have split the ambivalence and projected characteristics on him that befit his tyrannical predecessors. Stalin, Hitler, and Mao, and also Pol Pot, and the North Koreans, both of them, were adulated.

#182 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-06 06:58 PM

Not everyone participated. Why should everyone bail out those who participated and profited?

One of the late night TV hosts quipped, "They're installing windows that don't open all over Wall Street".

"And I'm opposed to the pork included in the bill."

Posted by Johnson

Which is 98% of the damned thing, page for page, compared to the original document.

#183 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-06 07:05 PM

"91% of the low defaulters are minorities"
#53 | POSTED BY JOHNSON AT 2008-09-29 10:59 AM

Will it be 71% next week, or is this just another one of those rumors you can't be bothered to substantiate?

I'm certain that as the downturn gains impetus and the cascade continues, the minority fraction will become smaller since more and more people will be brought down. All that was needed was a catalyst.The malaise will feed on itself.

sure am glad we spent all that money to keep this from happening

they are probably just reading all those polls that Americanunity is throwing around and an obama presidency is scaring them

BUT HEY

OIL CLOSED BELOW A HUNDRED BUCKS A BARRELL........

of course barry wont have any troubles

not with his buddies named rich and johnson and others who helped bust up the mortgages and took MIILLIONS WITH THEM

but OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO|

we cant talk about that shit, now can we?????????????

"OIL CLOSED BELOW A HUNDRED BUCKS A BARRELL(sic)........"

Posted by bushlovertwo

More interesting to me are the international exchange rates.

but any other time this would be headline news.......

I guess all those wooden arrow heads for the little kiddies are a lot more important to our "representives' in washinton

or whatever all theother pork in that
"baillout of barny frank and chris dodd was supposed to do

Bush's Bailout, BUSHlover.

Sucker.

wrong wrong wrong

if it wasnt for dems we would have never been to this point

just think of that picture of a smiling clinton signing the DEREGULATION bill in 1999 that was voted yes BY JOHN KERRY, TOM DASCHLE, AND JOE BIDEN among others.

also there was a bill put forth by mccain that was DEEPSIXED BY the dems

there is blame to go around but calling it bush's bailout is meer liberal jibberish

and remember.........I think that neither one of us thinks it should have happened.....isnt that correct??????????

and all the mortgages that people had to give because DEMOCRATS made it against the law to not give them out to ANYONE WHO happened to be black or brown whether they could afford them or not...........

I dont believe that was a part of some republican platform if we are to believe what most of you here say about us..

and race has nothing to do with it........

people who shouldnt have been able to get mortgages got them because of GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.....

and I am not saying either that there has never been a problem with blacks or browns being discriminated against.......

but facts are facts.........and now nanny government is having to take care of it

THANK BARNEY and your lover who was a high ranking officer of mac or was it mae

OH NO>....I CANT SAY THAT BECAUSE he"s gay.............OOPS!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

ARM - REAGAN

Savings and loan disaster - Bush

Artificially low interest in 2003 - Bush.

Happy cognitive dissonance, BUSHlover.

YEAH AND I heard arthur davis, a rep from georgia I believe today say that dems are at fault because they didnt do what they were supposed to do when many republicans talked about impending doom in this issue

he is a democrat, I might add

and yesterday I saw a video of mccain talking about looking into mae and mac in the 90's and then there were dodd and frank telling us that they were all okay and nothing to worry about

of course blowjob billy was in the white house and that means that the facts dont matter........
I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears and at least THEY ARE STILL working okay

damn I wish I could say that about everything at my age..........

people who shouldnt have been able to get mortgages got them because of GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.....

LOL!

A stupid post to say the least.

BL2

You've convinced me you're an alcoholic with looming wet brain....

LOL

"facts dont matter"

people who shouldnt have been able to get mortgages got them because of GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.....

LOL!

A stupid post to say the least.

#199 | Posted by moneywar a

no its the fact.

how many thousands of mortgages were entered into because the government could have come in and fined a business because of even precieved disrimination

political correctness like this is now costing us billions and the market says its STILL NOT ENOUGH

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A recent change in U.S. tax rules that determine how a buyer treats a target bank's losses on loans and bad debts could spur more deals in the troubled sector.

An Internal Revenue Service notice last week effectively lifts a limit on the amount of the buyer's taxable income these losses at the target bank can offset, allowing the buyer of the bank to get immediate tax benefits instead of having to do so over several years, experts said.

The rule change could prompt more deals in the sector, helping weaker banks find buyers when the credit crisis has made it hard for these banks to find fresh capital, they said.

"That's what it is designed to do," said Robert Willens, president of tax consultant Robert Willens LLC. "It makes it much easier for the buyer to use the built-in losses of the acquired company to offset and reduce its taxable income."

This was designed all along. So now having the competition removed to far fewer available competing institutions give greater control by those few rich guys at the top. More money given at the tax payers expense noless.

"precieved(sic) disrimination(sic)"

Check into rehab, OK?

no its the fact.

how many thousands of mortgages were entered into because the government could have come in and fined a business because of even precieved disrimination

Go fucking get your facts before your nose gets to long and your arms won't reach the key board.

thats good zat

now lets look at the gramm leach bill from 1999 that deregulated....

signe by clinton and voted yes by kerry and biden and john edwards and was passed at something like 90 to 10 in the senate.

look at all of the bullshit, not just the ones that make you look good

that LAW WILL NOT JUST GO AWAY like many of you want it to

and we still havent heard enough about the MONEY GIVEN TO barney frank and chris dodd..

from FAILING INSTITUTIONS.........

AND WHY IN THE HELL NOT>....

simple........the "D" after thier name

aw hell
times up

HEY ZAT..................so how will it come out

okies by TEN?????????????

BL2- I think you should post smoke signals. They would be easier for us to read.

precieved(sic) disrimination(sic)"

Check into rehab, OK?

#204 | Posted by Zatoichi

again let me explain LIBERAL EDUCATION to you

spelling and puncuation doesnt matter anymore

its holistic grading.........if I get the point across, then spelling and poucuation is not importtennnt.............( get it)

gotta go

have a good night

" gramm leach bill from 1999 that deregulated..."

Two simple concepts:

1. PHIL GRAMM
2. VETO PROOF

I have never been to a UT game.
Football is for stupid people.
That's why it's so popular in Texas.

"...people who shouldnt have been able to get mortgages got them because
of GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.....

-- BL2"

A stupid post to say the least.

#199 | Posted by moneywar at 2008-10-06 0

Not stupid at all. Here in California the special interest group La Raza would take out all kinds of lawsuits against the banks if they didn't give subprime home loans to illegal aliens or to Latinos who might have been here legally but didn't meet the basic credit criteria to qualify for a home loan.

Sure there was illegal redlining but ACORN and La Raza went waaaaaaaaay beyond just making sure people were not illegally discriminated against in getting loans. They extorted the banks by threatening lawsuits when the banks often had a legitimate reason not to hand out a loan.

I'm not dismissing the banks' fault in this either. When they knew they had to give in to La Raza and make these subprime loans to high risk borrowers who never should have had them (or even be in this country) or the banks would have had to spend half their capital defending lawsuit after lawsuit in the courts, they too went along with it and did the bundled mortgage securities scam.

ACORN originally had good intentions but when you are continually being threatened with very expensive lawsuits if you don't go along with them (and other groups like La Raza) it didn't help the situation.

No everyone can own a home. It's not a God given right. Some people are uneducated, unskilled, and will never make enough money to be able to pay for a home. That's not the fault of the American taxpayer.

The corruption went deep and is on all sides -- bankers, ACORN, La Raza, and all the rest of the players.

have a good night

Yep, losin your ass so you just got to leave.

"gramm leach"

BLT brings up the penultimate achievement of the Contract On America.

Brilliant.

Let us review the US' national debt normalized to it's ability to pay it: Gross domestic product.

have a good night

Yep, losin your ass so you just got to leave.

#213 | Posted by moneywar at

wrong again

lets see...having a drink with a nice looking women or talking to you hard dicks.

HHHM>/.////no choice there, is there???????

and I bring it up only to prove that dems are responsible for dereg as much if not more than any republican............

Damn!
A debt hockey stick!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
HAA

Not stupid at all.

Cali, as much as I like you, this was not one of your brighter side takes.

GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE is a no lose comment. Government removed working laws the government originally created. It is a stupid post.

lets see...having a drink with a nice looking women

And how many times have we heard this when your losin your ass.

$$$WAR

This whole thing is one big corrupt mess on all sides. Deregulation scams, fraud, the whole bit.

Am I the only one depressed that Bush and the rest of these thugs will AGAIN all get away with stealing billions from us and nothing will happen to them?

Why aren't there protests on the streets and people up in arms about all the crime and corruption.

and I bring it up only to prove that dems are responsible for dereg as much if not more than any republican............

No, you're posting out right lies that are confusing the issue for your own racial tendencies.

You have to be a racist to continue to post something you know not to be true, and sorry Cali, I'd have to put you in that segment after this for the information has now been made available to you.

BL2's been watching "Pal Joey" and having "Post Time" over and over

LOL

"spelling and puncuation(sic) doesnt(sic) matter anymore"

Bullshit.

".........if I get the point across, "

The point that you are stupid and illiterate, yes.
You remind me why my kids went to St Stephens, then Sewanee and Rhodes.

Public education in Texas is full of really shitty teachers.

Because we're all in here blaming the other side when they are ALL corrupt!

Oops... that was my answer to Chris' Post #220

This whole thing is one big corrupt mess on all sides. Deregulation scams, fraud, the whole bit.

Cali,

You're not the only one who is upset, all of America is upset.

This has been in design long before Bush, bush just implemented the action to make it happen. The Federal Reserve has done this sort of thing through out its history and all is condoned by our representatives.

America is upset but can't seem to get any real information but slight of hand convoluted ambiguous details sending those it points its finger at into defending positions. Mean while all the competition that once was available to the consumer is getting reduced more and more to a few bigger controllers at the expense of the tax payers and retirement accounts.

FREE money to be stolen.

#228 | Posted by moneywar

This is one of those rare occasions that I am in complete agreement with you.

Well stated.

Because we're all in here blaming the other side when they are ALL corrupt!

Two separate issues.

Let's be honest and non partisan here, folks. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Republicans may have had the lion share of control, but dems fucked up too.

I 'd say it's about 60/40 when you include the atrocious bail out bill.

Directory of Mark Twain's maxims, quotations, and various opinions:

Moneywars 228 post for the win.

There's more ...

The lightning there is peculiar; it is so convincing, that when it strikes a thing it doesn't leave enough of that thing behind for you to tell whether--Well, you'd think it was something valuable, and a Congressman had been there.
- Mark Twain's Speeches, "The Weather"

It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar

It is the foreign element that commits our crimes. There is no native criminal class except Congress.
- More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927

Whiskey is carried into committee rooms in demijohns and carried out in demagogues.
- Notebook, 1868

...I never can think of Judas Iscariot without losing my temper. To my mind Judas Iscariot was nothing but a low, mean, premature, Congressman.
- "Foster's Case", New York Tribune, 3/10/1873

That was, like, a long time ago, man.

...and sorry Cali, I'd have to put you in that segment after this for the information has now been made available to you.

#221 | Posted by moneywar

What info? That ACORN and La Raza didn't threaten lawsuits with charges of redlining against the banks if they didn't go along with giving loans to their special interest clients even if they didn't qualify?

Where's that memo? I must have missed it.

Since when are banks obligated to give loans to people who aren't even in this country legally and could be deported at any time and often don't even have legitimate ID? I don't call that "redlining" by any stretch. That's the group La Raza represented -- illegals. CA and FL had more than 40% of these subprime loans and a fair number of them went to illegal aliens. Since when are banks suppose to give them loans? If there was legitimate redlining - -they yes, take the banks to court. But often -- at least out here -- these subprimes went to people who shouldn't have even been in this country.

I agree ,Alex, on your #228 post.

"Because we're all in here blaming the other side"

I voted for Ann Richards and Ron Paul, when he was my rep.

That's it.

Perot lost.
Nader lost.
Badnarik lost.

Paris will prevail!

Cali,

What are you trying to say?

I keep listening but am not getting what your problem is with the situation.

The government did NOT force any of these loans, the banks and brokers did these loans of their own FREE will.

Moneywars 228 post for the win.

Well, we could bash his 228 on grammar, spelling and a poorly used Thesaurus.

However, gosh darn-it, I say we give it to him on sheer guts, by-golly!

"CA and FL had more than 40% of these subprime loans and a fair number of them went to illegal aliens. "

How many?

"The government did NOT force any of these loans"

The government made them possible.

People are stupid.

If everyone had always saved and paid cash none of this would have happened.

People are stupid; At least 98% of them.

I almost fell out of the car laughing when I heard Bush this morning, "I signed this bill on, uh, last week..."

and

"We don't want to rush into the situation and have the program not be effective."

Um

Wasn't this the same bill they unleashed on us three weeks ago that had to be approved by sundown, or else?

All these fools know how to do is rush from one situation to the next.

Alcoholic behavior.

The lightning there is peculiar; it is so convincing, that when it strikes a thing it doesn't leave enough of that thing behind for you to tell whether--Well, you'd think it was something valuable, and a Congressman had been there.
- Mark Twain's Speeches, "The Weather"

sweet

The government did NOT force any of these loans, the banks and brokers did these loans of their own FREE will.

That is true.

Having said that, government legislation and a rotten government marriage with Fannie and Freddie created a situation where Fan and Fred were snatching up questionable loans and making them more questionable under the auspice of making housing more affordable for the poor.

That certainly doesn't excuse the private lending industry for drastically lowering their lending practices, but the government played a role. Within government, warning bells were sounded, but squelched and ignored.

This is a debacle on multiple levels, but please don't understate our government's contribution to this mess.

People are stupid; At least 98% of them.

Let me guess, the other 2% fly Cessnas?

:-)

However, gosh darn-it, I say we give it to him on sheer guts, by-golly!

LOL!

That's only cause you agree with it, you would try to invalidate with grammar and word usuage if it was counter to your thought.

Nice to see that humor back though.

This is a debacle on multiple levels, but please don't understate our government's contribution to this mess.

I don't and did not.

The saying goes, greed is good. Just remember, greed is one of the 7 deadly sins so it should be regulated. Something that seems to be ignored.

People are stupid; At least 98% of them.

Yep, and paying cash would expand our positive side of the economy so so so very well.

Afraid we should look at that above statement a little closer.

I don't and did not.

I didn't think so, but I had to be sure.

That's only cause you agree with it, you would try to invalidate with grammar and word usuage if it was counter to your thought.

True, but I would do so in a very funny manner!

Moneywar,

Where in the hell is Ray?

You'd think he'd be all over this mess screaming, "I told you so!!!"

I can't believe he hasn't chimed in through all of this.

If nothing else, his perspective on this mess would be not only interesting, but a good, cautionary message.

The CRA only applies to FDIC member banks and thrifts. Back in the 1970s, these institutions were responsible for most of the country's mortgage lending. But starting in the 80s and on up to the present, we saw a huge boom in lending businesses-- such as finance companies like Countrywide -- that weren't banks, and didn't take deposits that required FDIC insurance. Thus, they didn't have any obligation to the CRA. And they were free to set their own lending standards, which were often far less cautious than those required of FDIC-insured banks.

These risky loans to the supposed aliens were done outside the safety net because the government would not OK the loans. Greed won the day and like I said, was planned and done for this exact purpose.

If nothing else, his perspective on this mess would be not only interesting, but a good, cautionary message.

I suspect Ray is caught up in this mess and has not had the free time available to post.

I suspect Ray is caught up in this mess and has not had the free time available to post.

I disagree for 3 reasons:

1. Ray's job, according to him, is in a technical field.

2. Most of Ray's wealth is tied-up in gold and silver, both of which have done comparatively well through all of this when measure against the market.

3. Ray's absence precedes this fiasco.

Ray's technical field has probably been off shored and more probable Ray's business was bought out and his services are no longer required.

Gold and Silver doesn't put money on the table.

I also don't think Ray has appologized to RCADE for the mess, but the fact he went so far suggest a little bit of tension in his life.

I have not gone to his sight so don't know if he has been maintaining it.

RAY IS ON SIGN UP STATUS I do not know if this is like the hole in prison (Below visitor status) or what. I never understood the Sign Up status. I am wondering if RCADE jerked His posting privileges for some LZK Like outburst.

Larry

If the government had just set the lenders free to do their thing, the market would have prevented this. It's just another example of how government oversight always leads to market failure.

Wrong again, buckaroo. As explained just above, up to four-fifths of these loans were issued by financial institutions that operated with little or no federal regulatory oversight. In fact, in 2006, only one of the top 25 subprime lenders was a CRA institution. A few others were mortgage/finance company affiliates of CRA-covered lenders; but even these were separate businesses that didn't operate under CRA rules (including Countrywide, CitiMortgage, and Wells Fargo Home Mortgage). Likewise: the vast majority of the top 20 issuers of risky interest-only and option ARM loans were not CRA-affiliated lenders.

If anything, the CRA example proves -- once again -- that government oversight not only works; it's essential to maintain safe and sane capital markets.

Government oversight does work, that is why it is created, to protect the masses. It is only unrational greed that removes the protective arm made for the masses.

"Uh, huh. Entitlement for corporate greed."

#30 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Yep, the democrats just voted with Bush to give "corporate greed" almost a trillion dollars.

Yep, the democrats just voted with Bush to give "corporate greed" almost a trillion dollars.

Your figures are wrong, it will be at least 4 times that in magnitude.

"Your figures are wrong, it will be at least 4 times that in magnitude."

#259 | Posted by moneywar

I'm sure it will. They're just getting started.

And unfortunately there isn't a major party to vote for to stop it.

And unfortunately there isn't a major party to vote for to stop it.

Why do you need a party? Vote your damn representative out.

Yep, the democrats just voted with Bush to give "corporate greed" almost a trillion dollars.

#258 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

And Republicans hope beyond hope few Americans remember they presided over the largest expansion of the federal budget and national debt in history.

Shoot, we paid $500,000,000,000 (billion) JUST LAST YEAR to service the national debt Bush and Co ran up with never a second thought.

"Deficits don't matter"

Dick Cheney

"Let me guess, the other 2% fly Cessnas?"

Beechcraft.

JD (Juvenile Delinquent?)

from your link that will give me all the answers you have ....

Allies & Supporters

The American Freedom Campaign is being conducted in partnership with

ACLU of Southern California
Alliance for Justice
Amnesty International USA
Brennan Center for Justice
Campaign to Defend the Constitution
Center for Constitutional Rights
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Human Rights Watch
MoveOn.org
National Campaign to Restore Civil Rights
True Majority

Obama supporters and Democrats.

I would be embarrassed for you but.... naw!!

Koolaid-
You just go right on thinkin' Obama is stupid, just as Rush told ya.

Obama couldn't think his way out of a one room shack with a back and a front door.

Say hi to Obama for me.

"Obama couldn't think his way out of a one room shack with a back and a front door."

And what does that say about the candidate he's kicking the shit out of?

"Obama couldn't think his way out of a one room shack"

Magna Cum Laude at Harvard Law is just nothing.

Zatoichi-
The liberal professors wanted him to do well because he's black...

Tiny Johnson

-You seem to distance yourself from "White Boy" status

I just don't look as good in the funny white hat and robes as you you do; as your posts make so obvious you do.

=The loans were made in compliance with government policies

Before your onerous ilk deregulated said policies; allowed them to be packaged by financial physicists and "legally" be sold with fake, unregulated insurance, there wasn't much problem with the loans.

-Well, 81% of the defaulters are minorities (in bold)

You just can't help yourself, can you?

-The blame for initiating the entire process is with these social engineers

As seen, you are completely wrong, as per usual. The laws existed to protect the loans, until "market is God" Greenspan types decided anything goes.

Your position is that because Einstein contributed to atomic research, the use of it as a weapon is also his fault.

The mortgages had potential to be problematic, but weren't until the rules were paid for by lobbyists and changed by Republican deregulators.

-The traders were opportunistic.

The traders and their companies were involved in a criminal enterprise to create highly technically sophisticated products that no one knew much about, except that they were based on the frailest mortgages around, and then illegally called insurance, a product called "credit debt swaps", and sold them as safe enough investments.

-What does "racism" have to do with it, Corky? Certainly it isn't "whitey," who is defaulting on these loans in such numbers.

Racism is always Job One where you are involved, Tiny. You only have yourself to blame, what with your every other post looking like an internal Klan memo.

Don't you have a cross burning waiting?

" liberal professors "

Every person who can't pull a 1400 on the SAT at 12 should be shot.

This guy didn't make the cut.

Soooo...how about that idea McCain had to privatize Social Security into the stock market?

How's that workin out fer ya, john?

Soooo...how about that idea McCain had to privatize Social Security into the stock market?

Now the interesting thing about this is if it was allowed, as it was pushed so hard, the fed. res. would have stolen all that money too. Not just the 401K's.

The markets have tanked. Where's the savior Obama?

Try to wait until he is President, koolaidaddict.

In the US, where loan securitization is widespread, banks are tempted to push risky loans by passing on the long-term risk to non-bank investors through debt securitization. Credit-default swaps, a relatively novel form of derivative contract, allow investors to hedge against securitized mortgage pools. This type of contract, known as asset-back securities, has been limited to the corporate bond market, conventional home mortgages, and auto and credit-card loans. Last June [2005], a new standard contract began trading by hedge funds that bets on home-equity securities backed by adjustable-rate loans to sub-prime borrowers, not as a hedge strategy but as a profit center. When bearish trades are profitable, their bets can easily become self-fulfilling prophesies by kick-starting a downward vicious cycle.

So we have not seen the worst to come, the auto industry is just now starting their decline and not much is being said about the credit card fall.

The real problem with the bail out is it will encourage future recklessness.

Most bankers reject the moral hazard charge because they welcome government intervention when it comes to protecting their profits even as they oppose regulations as hampering innovation and competitiveness with foreign banks. Bankers only want to get government off their backs when government tries to help the financially helpless and the poor. Private bankers support privatization of profit and socialization of risks.

Never ever a more telling and true statement.

There is no doubt that all of the nation's biggest financial conglomerates, whose commercial paper is the bellwether for the dollar and euro commercial paper markets, will fall from borrower defaults and their interconnected size will be the "too big to fail" reason for Fed intervention. It is very clear that troubled debt-ridden corporations will now turn to the banks for help, not because bankers are friendlier than bondholders, but because banks have access to the Fed discount window.

All through his long tenure at the Fed, Greenspan's recurring message to banks to continue lending during the first sign of recession was a clear signal that the Fed would provide all the liquidity that is needed to prevent a systemic collapse. The trouble is that the inter-linkage through structured finance allows even tiny companies to trigger the demise of firms that are "too big to fail".

The Nasdaq alone has made $3 trillion of market capitalization disappear in the last nine months of 2000 during the tech bubble bust, which put many corporate bonds under water. Unless the Fed is prepared to inject trillions of reserves into the banking system, the debt crisis cannot be solved. And if the Fed does that, what will happen to inflation and the exchange rate of the dollar? Cash denominated in dollars is looking less a safe haven every day. That is why the price of gold has jumped up.

Inflation here we come and the 700 billion bail out is not even the beginning for how much we will be billed.

So we have not seen the worst to come, the auto industry is just now starting their decline and not much is being said about the credit card fall.

#279 | Posted by moneywar

I tell ya, if we bail out people who have charged thousands on their credit cards and then bailed on paying them back, when I am so frugal with mine and pay it off every month, I will be furious.

Car sales are so bad Toyota just announced anyone who buys a car this month can get a loan with NO interest. Are we going to bail out every type of business there is or what??? This is getting ridiculous. Are we now guaranteeing every single business a bailout with taxpayer dollars? I mean why not turn every business over and make it government-owned since the government (and the tax payers) are covering all their costs. Oh wait, that's called communism.

get redeye, chris - we ain't seen nothin' yet! we have one vehicle financed and a low limit credit card we pay off about every other month - they keep trying to up the limit, but we say "NO!" all of a sudden we have five bankers lining up at the door to try and finance a house we've thought about buying - what to do? we're waiting it out. we have a place to go if it all falls apart.

Nanc-
Vote Republican. They've made "if it all falls apart" likely.

The most fundamental flaw in US financial market system is its inherent drive towards excess. A market boom will only end with a market crash unless government intervenes in mid course. The quest for the short term maximization of returns leads inevitably a speculative bubble. The traditional demand/supply business cycle has been genetically modified into a debt-propelled cycle that requires more debt to prolong. And the speed of the expansion dictates that more debt can only be added by lowering credit quality. The end result is always systemic implosion.

This is what Greenspan means when he refers to unbalances in the system, that physical expansion of productivity cannot possibly keep pace with credit expansion associated with the sudden wealth effect. In the Greenspan era, stocks were valued at 181% of GDP at their peak in March 2000, while at the beginning of the decade they were 60% of GDP. One of the characteristics of a bubble economy is the de-coupling of the equity markets from the actual performance of the economy.

So, most of our business's in reality have the same value as these homes, worth far less that what they owe.

betelg - i don't need, nor seek permission from you who i'll vote for on november 4. one thing for sure, i won't be voting based upon what others tell me i SHOULD do for the good of the party. i have too good a time by myself for that nonsense.

Nanc-
You'll vote Republican to the day you die unless the local representative shoots your dog, rips out its still beating heart and eats it before your very eyes.

But if he then convinces you that Barney Frank, fags, minorities, illegal aliens and the poor MADE him do it, then you might wait to see how the next debate goes....

Is the market going to continue to go down?
Will we see another day like today?

betelg - i might say the same thing about you only in reverse? although i've only admitted this twice - i may as well tell you that i did vote for jimmy carter back in the day. yeah, we all fuggup!

chris - i believe so - at least through the weekend. no consolation i know, but we need to keep our eyes on the prize!

Thanks for the song Nanc, it means alot to me right now (the meaning of the song)...More then I can tell you here.....

Moneywar, your right, this is only the begining.
Dow 7761 could be the next mark like in 2003. 2004
barrier was broken today. ETF's SKF XLF a good day.

CC Short answer is Yes, the low you saw today
may be the close Tuesday as the charts look now.

the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 10587.59 on January 20, 2001. Bush's first day in office

During his term it rose 3 fold.

The results of Bush's policies and governance should be quite apparent.

During Clinton's term it rose 3 fold that is -

It wouldn't be surprising to see Obama's numbers rise more after average folks open their 401K statements - which should be coming soon. It's not going to be a pretty net number at the bottom line.

McCain wants to carry on the same failed policies as Bush, yet even when Bush's policies cause people financial pain they still want to continue his policies.

Go figure.

a.u. - so he did something right for a time and now he's a dismal failure?

NANC

What? I clarified my post to say the market rose 3 fold during Clinton's term

Bush's term led to a net loss in the markets from where the DOW was on January 20, 2001.

Bush's policies have been a disaster. In a nutshell it was 'eat, drink, and be merry living on credit. You'll think you're better off than you really are'.

what exactly were we banking on? would it be similar to that which we bailed out this week? nothing? oh, i feel better already!

a.u. - i have to laugh - we got out of debt during this administration and i'm just flummoxed at what is going on now - we're barely in debt because we've watched our money so carefully and planned and saved for everything we've done.

aka: we're NOT hurting.

new siding for the double wide won't be cheap nanc. You better get your can collecting operation into high gear.

In the United States, when house prices have generally tripled in less than a decade, it is evidence that the value of the dollar has declined by a factor of three in the same time period. Consumer prices have not risen by the same amount because of outsourcing of manufacturing to low-wage economies overseas which also acts as a depressant on domestic wages. Imbalance in the economy appears if wages and earnings have not risen proportional to prices.

A homeowner whose house has increased 300% in market price while his income has risen only 30% has not become richer. He has become a victim of uneven inflation. He may enjoy a one-time joyride with cash-out financing with a new mortgage, but his income cannot sustain the new mortgage payments if interest rates rise, and he will lose his home. And interest rates will rise if his income increases, because that is how the Fed defines inflation. Thus when his income rises, the market price of his home will fall, giving him an incentive to walk away from a big mortgage in which he has little equity tie-up. This can become a systemic problem for the mortgage-backed security sector.

How to keep those down in a continuously down world.

NANC

We're in good shape in my house too.

But, I should mention that we must have received a thousand offers for equity lines and refinancing on our house during Bush's term.

Real wages have not gone up, but oh the price of everything else has. Only because my wife and I do rather well in life has it not affected us like it does those who's wages haven't kept up with inflation.

Bush's term has been a fiscal disaster for most Americans - except those who's policies were cynically designed to help in the first place (hint: those who didn't need it as much).

If your premise is that Bush's economic policies (what are they?) have been great for most folks, why doest Obama out poll McCain 2-1 on the question of 'who will handle the economy better?'. McCain wants to continue Bush's failed policies and the public knows that. So, why is it McCain loses that one over and over and over and over if people are so happy with what Bush's economic policies have done for their lives?

Rex I have lived in some dumps but they were mostly pay by the week tenements. I don't have a lot of experience in trailers. But I know Arkansas is packed with them.

I'm going to bed.

This is what people who aren't blogging on DR think:

Never lived in a trailer before, but I bet it would be fun in hurricaine country......

AU Obama would have to be caught molesting kids to lose the election at this point. Never say never but unless that or a terrorist attack happens we are getting Obama in the whitehouse.

REX

I had an idea a few years ago (a joke idea)....

An inflatable 'mobile home' with a picture of a tornado and a hand giving the middle finger to it.

When weather is coming, you inflate the " Tornado Decoy " and set it a few hundred yards from your house - thus enticing the tornado away from it's path if it's heading towards your house.

I love how the politicians of both parties now refuse to call it the "bailout plan" anymore
since the day they passed the bill.

If you notice, the politicians now refer to it only as the "rescue plan."

I will always call it what it is -- a bailout.

Realplus5

CC Short answer is Yes, the low you saw today
may be the close Tuesday as the charts look now.

There is money to be made now on some of these stocks if you have the extra cash.
I'd like to see if some of them drop even more.

"Right you are, 91%. It's such a large percentage that it boggles the mind."
Posted by Johnson

Yes it is, but according to your post this time, the number is only 81%. My observation was the next time we hear this, it may be 71%. Or 61%. Or 6.1%, based on your callous disregard for the truth.

It makes people believe you're just pulling shit out of your ass.

AU Obama would have to be caught molesting kids to lose the election at this point. Never say never but unless that or a terrorist attack happens we are getting Obama in the whitehouse.

#310 | Posted by rastaninja

I wouldn't put anything past the Bush Administration.

They have secrets they're praying will never be discovered, and they've done everything they can so far to cover them up. "Losing" millions of WH emails that should never have been on the RNC servers to begin with, refusing to answer subpoenas, refusing to testify under oath, et al.

They're scared shitless of a Democrat moving in and finding things out they've done everything in their power to hide.

An attack or a military strike overseas to stir up the pot wouldn't be out of the question IMHO. They have a LOT to lose - like their freedom.

Zat, in regard to post 273:

I'd give them 16 years. 12 might be too few to develop the brain/mind. I'd go with 16. We might lose too much genetic base at 12.

/would have been shot in either case, only scored 1360.

This is actually Ronald Raygun's fault, you all know that, right? It's all about attitude. It doesn't really matter which regs are in place or not, or which rep or senator did what when or for whom, the downfall was programmed into our future as soon as the more is better attitude infested the mindset of the population at large. Go tell your kid that she can't have everything she wants for her birthday. See how she reacts, it's a microcosm of what's happening in the finance world now.

This is just the balancing act. Nature doesn't tolerate one-sidedness very well and humans are products of the natural world as much as everything on the planet.

The stock market is going to flip flop over the next 7 years due to this lending mess that took 15 years to unfold.

I defy anyone on this page to point to one provable and tangible event on Obama's resume that details his ability to pull America out of this mess.

Remember, he wants to raise taxes on corporation, large and small. This is indirect tax on Americans, as corporations must increase the selling prices of their goods and services to maintain profitability. We know that will not work.

FYI - don't point at McCain. Only use real facts to prove Obama can to it.

FYI - don't point at McCain. Only use real facts to prove Obama can to it.

LOL!

Don't point at the man who will continue this mess.

a.u. - what do tornados and divorces in oklahoma have in common?

in both cases SOMEBODY'S going to lose a trailer!

Moneywar....I know that attacking McCain was your answer.

See Moneywar, you don't have an answer. You don't know!

"this lending mess that took 15 years to unfold"

Another F in elementary arithmetic.

Try 26 years.

"The Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982 (Pub.L. 97-320, H.R. 6267, enacted 1982-10-15) is an Act of Congress, that deregulated the Savings and Loan industry. This Act turned out to be one of many contributing factors that led to the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s.[1]

Poor Bushites. Supported a Loser and it shows. Why were You so stupid to vote for Dubya?? What a sad State of affairs we are in. Thanks Bushites.

Larry

#4 | Posted by LarryMohr

Uh, Larry? You awake now... Good.

You guys Barney Frank ONE job to do and look what he did!

BTW, Barney Frank is a Democrat and you vote for Democrats, right?

FYI - don't point at McCain. Only use real facts to prove Obama can to it.

LOL!

Don't point at the man who will continue this mess.

#319 | Posted by moneywar

And Obama won't? What? You can't be that stupid.

"And Republicans hope beyond hope few Americans remember they presided over the largest expansion of the federal budget and national debt in history."

#262 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Yep, don't forget the nearly 1 trillion that democrats voted with Bush on to give to "corporate greed."

Yep, don't forget the nearly 1 trillion that democrats voted with Bush on to give to "corporate greed."

#325 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

LrD,

There are way too many hard-core, ignorant Republicans and Democrats who still believe in the 2-party system. It's like Mommy and Daddy fighting. They are BOTH, TOGETHER building the New World Order.

It's time to vote 3rd party!!!

A single 4-year term with a Constitution-saving President will set the "New World Order" back 50 years.

I'm sure this has been posted prior to this, but who cares.
That being said, some people place some importance on what liberal hollywood losers like Baldwin have to say. Personally, I could care less what this douche thinks. Some of you looney tunes on the other hand could use a little perspective, so there it is...

#326 | Posted by 101Chairborne

When he's dumping on Bush he's a good guy, but when he finally tells the truth he's a souche bag?

Waking up is hard to do....

*douche bag

What good does this bailout money do buying up people's foreclosed loans, or even bringing their delinquent loans up to date for them when next month many of them will still will not have the money to pay because they have lost their jobs. The bailout is a bandaid for our economy -- nothing more.

500,000 manufacturing jobs were lost last year.

Thanks to the Bush and the corporate Republicans and their fetish for outsourcing and downsizing to always make another buck, people are losing jobs by the millions.

A one time bailout means nothing now if tomorrow people still don't have work. America used to be the pride of the world when it came to manufacturing. Bush's free trade globalism has destroyed forever the manufacturing base of the U.S. and replaced those jobs with either nothing or minimum wage service jobs.

Add on to the manufacturing jobs lost all the jobs in the financial industry lost these last two months and you see a long recession or possibly a depression on the way. No economy runs without employment.

Eddie

Waking up is hard to do....

I'll put on some more coffee for us. I'm dragging too. lol

The Sec. of Treasury is suppose to speak any minute on tv. Don't know what he has to say.

When he's dumping on Bush he's a good guy, but when he finally tells the truth he's a souche bag?

Waking up is hard to do....

#328 | Posted by Eddie at 2008-10-07 11:05 AM | Reply

No, he's a douchebag regardless of what he's saying or doing. He is an excellent actor though.

"It's time to vote 3rd party!!!"

#327 | Posted by Eddie

I agree.

My personal hope is that the GOP gets cleaned out, and comes back with new, better people.

So I'm voting Libertarian as long as it takes, even if that's for the duration.

I agree.

My personal hope is that the GOP gets cleaned out, and comes back with new, better people.

So I'm voting Libertarian as long as it takes, even if that's for the duration.

#334 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

I'm checking out Chuck Baldwin, Constitution Party. I know absolutely nothing at this point, but he's worth a look.

I do know that he's running on a single issue, immigration. There is sooo much more to fix.

9,499.20 -456.30 / -4.58%
Oct 7 3:51pm ET

From other news today

Americans' retirement plans have lost as much as $2 trillion in the past 15 months, Congress' top budget analyst estimated Tuesday.

The upheaval that has engulfed the financial industry and sent the stock market plummeting is devastating workers' savings, forcing people to hold off on major purchases and consider delaying their retirement, said Peter Orszag, the head of the Congressional Budget Office. ...

9447.11 -508.39 (-5.11%) Oct 7 4:05pm ET

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Suckers!

duh

I wish there were futures trading on Bush's approval (oxymoron) ratings. I would short the shit out of that. I predict a "one handle" the next time it comes out.

All seriousness though. We're in for a shit show for all generation. Libor rates parabolic and 2 year swap spreads widening in laymen's terms equal NO LENDING OR BUSINESS EXPANSION of any kind. Global Central banks not only on the same page, but reading different books. Europe dangerously close to resembling Japan of the 90's. Inflation coming in hard, BUT prices and wages coming in hard as well. Deflation could become a problem.(Japan say hi) U.S. on pace for a deep recession, slow recovery, then jobless recovery like in 1991 and 2001. (Bush 1 and 2 say hi) If China reaccelerates then commodities go higher so pray wages and PMI here go higher. Banks are recapitalizing which means the biggest component of S & P will keep the mkts at bay because normally when that happens these same companies pre-announce negative forecasts. Im not predicting anything, but the writing is on the wall. If the mkts don't bounce back and establish a new support and resistance level....say hello to DOW 8000.

Oh, and George W. Bush is the worst president we've ever had. There, I said it.

With current issues support and resistance levels
are a dream to be whipsawed thru to new lower levels
like 7761 in 2003.

With current issues support and resistance levels
are a dream to be whipsawed thru to new lower levels
like 7761 in 2003.

#339 | Posted by realplus5 at 2008-10-07 09:14 PM

If we don't correct the 3-5% swings, then yeah, technicals don't apply. Right now, we have the highest number of 52 wk lows in 10 years. The % of stocks below the 200 day moving avg. is at a 6 year low and the lowest % of stocks above their 10 week avg in 6 years as well. And the advance/decline levels is reaching 1987 levels.

The key is a coordinated rate cut amongst ALL central banks. Australia might have kicked things off, but we need the ECB to follow suit. Expect the Bank of England to do it later this week and if data here in the US get worse by the FOMC meeting this OCT 29, then expect a FED cut before that.

As we write Asia/Pacific is getting hammered again.

The Nekkei in Japan is down nearly a 1,000 points on Wednesday and the Hang Seng Index in Hong Kong is not far behind:

If you that the Dem's are a magic feel good
answer to this world wide slide guess again.
Whom ever ends up in office will have a full term
crisis in their possession. You can forget about
all the give me plans for votes. It will be
keep GM,FORD etc. etc. solvent just to keep jobs.
If your not a short seller and/or know what your
doing in this market, stay out. A 500 point drop
today would not surprise me busting into 8000 level.
All bets are off on the bottoming number.

Euro Markets are getting slaughted at the moment.

Fed cuts 50% on the discount rate. I think it's a terrible idea. Fed should've let the mkts opened and shake out the rest of the weak hands, then the mkts could then regroup. If the mkts don't rally hard and extend gains on this cut, and the credit mkts remain strained, we are indeed fucked. Terrible idea. I guarantee since we're in a election year and Obama's looking more like the winner, I bet you the Bush admin forced the Fed's hand. Guaranteed.

9369.21 -77.90 (-0.82%) Oct 8 1:07pm ET

Got stopped out 3 times and called it a day
too volatile today. Waiting to see what Asia
does again. DOW futures and fair value look
ugly again. Fed cut seems to have been mute
point in this mess at the moment.

I think the best trades are the ones made in the last hour of the day and go overnight. If the trend is down, better to pick the worse performing stks or sectors of the day. Especially if they close at or just off their lows. If mkts rally during the trading day, sell or short into the rally. If going long...stop yourself out at a reasonable price above what you paid. If trade isnt working out on the long side. Just get out. Traders will def. short into any rally tmrw on mkt spikes. The trend is your friend and rite now the trend is clearly down. If the mkt close up tmrw, go long the stronger stks or sectors.

"I think the best trades are the ones made in the last hour of the day and go overnight."

Sad gambler flag.

I remember buying stocks because they paid good dividends.

Zat- If the trend is down, like today,yesterday, last week and the past 3 months... you SHORT the weak stocks/sectors of the day. What part did you not understand? If the mkts close higher and on strong volume you go long overnight because the short term trend is bullish. What part of that did you not understand? I daytrade for a living, and do well. If you're going to school me, do it with a fucking paragraph at least and not a weak attempt at being witty. Obviously you buy stocks on dividends so stick to that little boy and leave the daytrading to others.

Zat- "I remember buying stocks because they paid good dividends".

Who asked for your opinion flag.

Sox, approx 10:00/11:30 and 1:15 positioning
got me, long>short>long with ETF's. I've been reviewing
the charts and this was a hard one.

#348 your logic is sound, agree